1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: In a courtroom in Melbourne. Today, Justice Christopher Bill made 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: a ruling. It didn't take very long, but it was 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: very important in the case of Aaron Patterson because throughout 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: the trial there was information the jury never got to hear, 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: and for the first time we can tell you all 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: about it. I'm Brooke Greebert Craig and this is the 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Mushroom Cook. Hi Laura, welcome back for another podcast episode. 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: Good to be here. 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: So today we'll be touching on everything that the jury 10 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: didn't know. 11 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: And I will just say from the top, I have 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 2: been waiting months to talk about this, so let's get 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: it underway. So it all goes back to the pre 14 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,319 Speaker 2: trial hearings that US journalists are allowed to sit in on, 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: and these happened throughout late last year and early this year. 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 2: So all of the lawyers came together as well as 17 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: the witnesses. They were brought in one by one to 18 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: give evidence in these hearings so the lawyers could hear 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: what they had to say before the trial kicked off. 20 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: After they heard from all the witnesses, everyone came back 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: for some dense legal argument. And this legal argument was 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 2: really about the defense team trying to get evidence thrown 23 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: out of trial. But on the other hand, it was 24 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: the prosecution fighting really hard to make sure it stayed in. 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: So after all of this discussion was over, just as 26 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: Christopher Beale came back and he delivered his rulings, and 27 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: he was effectively deciding what would stay in and what 28 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 2: would stay out. Everything that stayed in was all of 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: the evidence that our listeners would have heard us speak 30 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: about over the course of the trial. But now we 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: can talk about what was kept secret from the jury. 32 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into it. Let's go back to the lunch. 33 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: The jury heard that Aaron made one trip to the 34 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: tip to dump that dehydrator, but what they didn't know 35 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: is that she made a trip to the same tip 36 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,639 Speaker 1: on the day of the lunch. 37 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: Yes, and this was something that we learned at pre trial. So, 38 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: as you said, Brook, she dumped the dehydrat on August two. 39 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: But if we rewind back to the lunch on July 40 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: twenty nine, the guests left at around two forty five. 41 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: Ian said that he had to tend to some church duties, 42 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: so everyone jumped in the car and they left. What 43 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: we found out was that forty five minutes after they 44 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 2: had left Erin also departed her house and she went 45 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: to the Koonwarra Tip and what the prosecution said she 46 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: did was dump other items from the lunch. One of 47 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: the other Crown prosecutors, Sarah Lenthal, said there was an 48 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: element of secrecy about this trip because her son and 49 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: his friend were at home at the time and she 50 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: didn't tell them that she was leaving to go to 51 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: the tip, and Miss Leenthal said that was an unusual occurrence. 52 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 2: She would usually always tell her children when she was 53 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: leaving the home, even if it was only for a 54 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: short while. 55 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: And I guess one would think if you're not telling 56 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: your child where you were going, then it's usually something 57 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: that you don't want them to know. 58 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: Potentially, and that's why miss Lenthal said there felt like 59 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: there was an element of secrecy around this trip, so 60 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: she fought really hard for the jury to hear this. 61 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: The prosecution wanted the jury to know that only forty 62 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: five minutes after hosting this lunch, she was at the 63 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: tip disposing of some items. Thought mister Mandy argued was 64 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: we actually didn't know what she dumped at all. The 65 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: business records from the tip stated that some cardboard was 66 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: left by Erin, but we have no idea what else 67 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: she left. So he told the court that what she 68 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: could have disposed of that day could have been completely innocent. 69 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: He said it was in the realm of speculation, and 70 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: I think the words he used were it was just 71 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: a visit to the tip. So for this reason, he 72 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: said that the jury shouldn't know about this trip. It 73 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: should stay secret because it was going to be too 74 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: unfair to his client. 75 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: So you're telling me Aaron went to the Tip of 76 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: forty five minutes after her guests left that deadly beef 77 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: Wellington lunch. 78 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: Yes, and the jury had no idea. In fact, there 79 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: was actually a discussion in the middle of the trial 80 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: in the absence of the jury, where they were debating 81 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: how they should redact these business records from the Tip 82 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: to hide that trip from the jury. 83 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about the charges relating to Simon that 84 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: were dropped. 85 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: So this happened at the very beginning of the trial. 86 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: I think it was our second podcast episode where we 87 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: brought to our listeners the news that three attempted murder 88 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: charges that Aaron was facing had been dropped by prosecutors. 89 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: The jury were told on the first day that these 90 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: charges had been dropped and they should put them out 91 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: of their mind. They weren't going to form part of 92 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: the trial. To justice Bee really emphasized that they should 93 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: not be turning their minds to them. 94 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: But the jury didn't hear any contexts as to what 95 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: the charges. 96 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: Were, none at all. They only heard that there were 97 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: three charges of attempted murder. And you and I were 98 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,559 Speaker 2: sitting in court, and all of the other journalists as well, 99 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: we all knew that context, but we couldn't quite talk 100 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: about it yet. 101 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: And we knew that context because that's something that we 102 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: all heard in pre trial. 103 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: What we knew but the jury didn't know, was that 104 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: on three occasions, Simon said Erin tried to kill him 105 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: by feeding him poisoned food. He told the court during 106 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: pre trial that he had stopped eating Erin's food because 107 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: he believed she had tried to kill him on these 108 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: occasions while they were camping in the Victorian Bush. 109 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to point out when they were camping, 110 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: they were actually separated, so they weren't together. 111 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. So these camping trips took place in 112 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: November twenty twenty one May twenty twenty two and November 113 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, all before that fateful lunch in twenty 114 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: twenty three. Our listeners may remember that when he was 115 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: asked at trial why he didn't attend the lunch on 116 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: July twenty nine, he simply said he was too uncomfortable. 117 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: He gave no further answer to that question, and he 118 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to No, he wasn't. He had to essentially 119 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: keep his lip sealed because all of this information about 120 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: happened to him wasn't to be heard by the jury. 121 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 2: But I will say Brook, you were on top of 122 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 2: this before many other people were. You were recovering this 123 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: story in the days after the lunch, and you discovered 124 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 2: that Simon had battled a mystery gut illness in May 125 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 2: twenty two. 126 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct. So if I take us back to 127 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: August twenty twenty three, when the story broke, I was 128 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: in leng Gatha looking into it a bit more, and 129 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: I came across a post that Simon made on Facebook 130 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: in a local community group where he spoke more about 131 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: this mystery gut illness that he was suffering from. And obviously, 132 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: at that time two years ago, we didn't have any 133 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: of the contexts that we have now, But we ran 134 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: that story and other media outlets followed, and in the 135 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: following days, I received a tip off that actually came 136 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: to my inbox, and I had a source that said 137 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: that they knew more about Simon's mystery gun illness, and 138 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: this person told me that Simon believed that Aaron had 139 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: tried to poison him on multiple occasions. I trusted this 140 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: source and we ended up running this story. So for 141 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: me personally, it was very interesting to find out more 142 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: of the contexts of Simon's illnesses, knowing that I had 143 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: written these past stories. 144 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: And in terms of the timeline, Aaron was charged in 145 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: November twenty twenty three over the lunch, but then there 146 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: were these three attempted murder charges relating to Simon and 147 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: these camping trips. But what we then found out in 148 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: pre trial was there was actually a fourth meal she 149 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: fed him that he said made him sick. 150 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: But we'll let our colleagues veteran crime reporter Anthony Dowsley 151 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: and court reporter ash Argoon, who our listeners heard from 152 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: in season one, talk about this more in detail in 153 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: another episode. Another interesting thing that came out at pre 154 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: trial is that Simon said that he had had multiple 155 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: media inquiries with publications asking him to tell his story. 156 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: Yes, and he said that he may sell his story 157 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: for considerable financial reward were the terms he used. And 158 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: he said that could take the form of a major interview, 159 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: a book, or even a TV show. 160 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: So we'll have to wait and see really whether he 161 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: goes down that pathway. 162 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: Who will. 163 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: So we've heard that these were alleged poisonings. Why were 164 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: these charges dropped in the end. 165 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 2: That's a really great question. During these pre trial proceedings 166 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 2: that we've been speaking about, Crown Prosecutor Undernette Rodgers fought 167 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 2: really hard for all of these charges, so both the 168 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 2: lunch charges and Simon charges to be heard together by 169 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: the same jury. But simply her argument was that when 170 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: all of these circumstances were heard together, they provided context 171 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 2: for one another and the jury could take a step 172 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: back after hearing all of this evidence and come to 173 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: the conclusion that all of this could not be a coincidents. 174 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: It could not be a coincidence that Simon on three 175 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: occasions and his relatives at the lunch all fell ill 176 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: from eating Eron's food and it be an accident each time. 177 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: So that was the argument that was made by the prosecution. 178 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: But the defense argued in reply that for all of 179 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: these things to be heard at the same time by 180 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: the same jury, it would be too unfair to erin, 181 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: it would be unfairly prejudicial. And they particularly argued this 182 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: because we actually didn't know that much about these illnesses 183 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: that Simon suffered when he went to hospital, particularly on 184 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: the first occasion. They didn't run every single test under 185 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: the sun. And like we just said, the prosecution didn't 186 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: even know what poison may have been used on these occasions. 187 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: So there was simply not enough evidence, which is why 188 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: Justice Biel decided that the Simon charges and the Lunch 189 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: charges be heard separately in front of two different juries. 190 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: Once that decision was made, the prosecution actually went up 191 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: to the Court of Appeal try and get it overturned, 192 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: arguing again that this should be heard by one single jury, 193 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: but they failed once more. It was at that point 194 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: that they decided they had no other choice but to 195 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: drop the charges relating to Simon. 196 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: Now, Laura, let's talk about the swirling speculation that was 197 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 1: taking place within the community twenty four hours after the 198 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: lunch occurred. 199 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned, at the top of the episode. 200 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: More than a dozen witnesses gave evidence in these pre 201 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 2: trial hearings, and we heard a lot from them that 202 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: they may not have been able to touch upon at 203 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: trial where they had to keep their lips sealed. And 204 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: a lot of these suspicions were the things they weren't 205 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: allowed to touch on because they started to relate to 206 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: these alleged poisonings of Simon. 207 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: It would have been really difficult for these witnesses to 208 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: not talk about these particular aspects of their evidence exactly. 209 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: So before they were giving evidence in the trial, they 210 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: were actually getting briefings from the prosecution, and you can 211 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: imagine in these briefings, the prosecution are reminding them, remember 212 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 2: you can't talk about X, Y Z. So when I 213 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: ask you a question about something, remember not to touch 214 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 2: on a certain element. So they were almost self censoring 215 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: in the moment, making sure they didn't put a toe 216 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 2: out of line. 217 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what Simon told Ian and Heather. 218 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: So Simon told the jury that the day after the 219 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: lunch he went around to Heather and Ian's home to 220 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: check in on them because his own parents, Don and 221 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: Gale had fallen very ill after the lunch. When he arrived, 222 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: he described that Ian looked gray and looked very sick. 223 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: What the jury didn't know was at that time, Simon 224 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: was honest with his aunt and uncle and he told 225 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: them what he believed had happened to him. He divulged 226 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: how sick he had become in the past from eating 227 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: Aaron's food and said to them that he was worried 228 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: the same thing had happened to them. He really urged 229 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: them to get to hospital as soon as possible. Ian 230 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 2: did tell the jury at trial that when Simon came over, 231 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: he explained to his nephew that he thought it was 232 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: just gastro and they were going to wait for it 233 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: to pass. But he didn't touch on this conversation he 234 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: had with Simon about his suspicions. But at pre trial 235 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 2: he explained that even after hearing this from Simon, him 236 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: and Heather still resisted going to hospital, and it was 237 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 2: only after Simon called a doctor or nurse on call 238 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: over the phone that they relented and decided that they 239 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: should go to hospital. Now let's talk about doctor Chris Webster. 240 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: He was one of the doctors who treated Ian and 241 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 2: Heather when they were in hospital. And he also spoke 242 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: to Aaron as well. Yes, that's right. And to remind 243 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: our listeners, doctor Webster was the person who made that 244 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: triple zero call to police when Aaron left the hospital 245 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: for the first time after only being there for five minutes. 246 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: So to take a step back, doctor Webster told the 247 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: court at pre trial that he had started his shift 248 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: on July thirty, the day after the lunch, and he 249 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: received a call from an old colleague of his, doctor 250 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: Chris Ford. So we've got two doctor Chris's here. Doctor 251 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: Webster works at len Gatha Hospital and doctor Ford is 252 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: a GP and doctor Ford was Simon's GP. He was 253 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: treating Simon for a number of months and it was 254 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: over that period that Simon was telling him about his 255 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: suspicions around Erin and the food she was feeding him. 256 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: What doctor Webster recounted was doctor Ford ringing him up 257 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 2: to alert him to the fact that he believed all 258 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: of the lunch guests had been deliberately poisoned. He told 259 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: doctor Webster to keep a really close eye on the 260 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: guests that he was treating because it was not a 261 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: case of common food poisoning, but he suspected it was 262 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: something much more sinister. He said that at the time 263 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: he remembered thinking to himself, this is very bizarre. He 264 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: had just started work and all of a sudden he 265 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 2: was in the middle of what was shaping up to 266 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: potentially be murder. He then went on to reveal what 267 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: he said to a colleague that day. Doctor Webster was 268 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: being asked about this at pre trial by Aaron's defense barrister. 269 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: This is what he said to him at pre trial. 270 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: He said to mister Mandy. 271 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: It was a private comment to the nurse, and it 272 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 3: was a facetious comment. So it's embarrassing to say, but 273 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 3: you want me to tell you. 274 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: At this point, mister Mandy beckoned him to keep going. 275 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: This is what doctor Webster said. 276 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 3: He told his colleague, I said, it looks like someone's 277 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 3: trying to take out the church community. 278 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: So some might say that that was just a throwaway comment, 279 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: or others might think that Dr Webster had suspicions quite 280 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: early on. 281 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: Exactly, And he said in court he was a little 282 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: bit embarrassed that he made this joke, but the comment 283 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: really does give you an insight into his mentality at 284 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: the time and what he thought might have been going on. 285 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: He then explained what happened the next day, on July 286 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: thirty one, when Aaron herself arrived at Lengatha Hospital, tensions 287 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: were clearly high. So when Aaron walked into the hospital 288 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: and told doctor Webster her name, he said he knew 289 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: exactly who she was. He said he realized this was 290 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: the chef of the lunch who had potentially just tried 291 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: to kill all of her guests. 292 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: As we know, Aaron left the hospital after being there 293 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: for five minutes. 294 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: At trial, doctor Webster said that when Aaron arrived at hospital, 295 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: he told her that she had potentially been exposed to 296 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: lethal deathcat mushrooms, but in the back of his mind 297 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: you can imagine he was thinking she was not a 298 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: victim but a killer. 299 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: Okay, finally, let's talk about files that were found on 300 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: Aaron's devices. 301 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: Investigators search through Erin's devices using some keywords to help 302 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: them navigate through everything, and remembering one of these keywords 303 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: was poison. So one thing that investigators stumbled upon was 304 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: a chapter of a book that was located on a 305 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: tablet that was seized from Aaron's house. The book was 306 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: called Criminal Poisoning and the title of this chapter was 307 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: some common homicidal poisons. As you can imagine, this really 308 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: peaked their interest. This chapter detailed the color, the odor, taste, 309 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: lethal dose of a handful of poisons, where talking anti 310 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: freeze arsnick even cyanide. What it didn't touch on, though, 311 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: was toxic mushrooms. Beyond this fact, mister Mandy argued that 312 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: there was no evidence that his client downloaded this file, 313 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: whether she read the file, or if she did read it, 314 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: how much of it she may have read. But he 315 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: also said that any interest his client may have had 316 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: in poisons could have related to the fact that she 317 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: was involved in a true crime group, that being the 318 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: Kali Lane group, and he said that when she was 319 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: discussing true crime with her friends where poisons were maybe 320 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: part of the plot, she may have had to do 321 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: some research. We heard that she was a very good researcher, 322 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: and he said that she was quite widely read. But 323 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: in response to that, Justice Beale remarked that a lot 324 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: of people who are widely read aren't looking up poisons. 325 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: But Klly Lane didn't poison anyone, did she. 326 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: Yes, Kelly Lane is no poisoner. She was found guilty 327 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: over the death of her baby who disappeared but we've 328 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: come to know now that in this Kelly Lane group, 329 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 2: all of the people involved were talking about a lot 330 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: of true crime, not just the Kellilaine case. And mister 331 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: Mandy said that Erin might have been looking up poisons 332 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: as part of the plots of the crimes they were discussing, 333 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: remarking that she was widely read. But Justice Biel said 334 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: to him that a lot of people who are widely 335 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 2: read are not looking up poisons. Nonetheless, evidence of this 336 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: file was never put before the jury. 337 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: And where any other files found. 338 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 2: There was one more of note, and this was from 339 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: a Victorian naturalist journal, so a journal focusing on a 340 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: lot of the natural world. And one article that got 341 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: police's attention was called an overview of the Fungi of Melbourne. 342 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: And this article was written by one and the same 343 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: Dr Tom May, who ended up being a prosecution witness 344 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: in the case. So clearly Erin may have already been 345 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: familiar with some of his work. In this article, there's 346 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: a photo of death caps and some description of them. 347 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 2: But mister Mandy brought Justice Bill back to the fact 348 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: that the prosecution couldn't say whether she read this article 349 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: at all, So it was also kept secret from the jury. 350 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: Now, that's a lot of information that we have spoken about, 351 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: and I'm sure people would be thinking, why didn't the 352 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: jury hear this exactly? 353 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 2: But to put it simply, trials are about what the 354 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 2: prosecution can prove. Ultimately, Justice Bill decided that the prosecution 355 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 2: simply didn't have enough proof. Not enough proof to say 356 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 2: whether Erin downloaded these articles, whether she read any of them, 357 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 2: whether she definitely poisoned Simon, and no evidence to suggest 358 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 2: what she actually dumped at the tip. So to avoid 359 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 2: inviting speculation, it is simply fairer if this evidence is 360 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: not heard by the jury. 361 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,479 Speaker 1: Thanks Laura, And as we said before, we'll have an 362 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: episode tomorrow about Aaron's charges relating to Simon Patterson, so 363 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: stay tuned.