WEBVTT - Is Albanese pressuring Labor to keep quiet on gambling?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven Am. A

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<v Speaker 1>letter to Prime Minister Anthony Albernezi has reopened the fight

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<v Speaker 1>over gambling reform inside the Labor Party. MPs say they

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<v Speaker 1>want change but are too scared to speak publicly. It

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<v Speaker 1>comes as a Four Corners investigation has shown how much

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<v Speaker 1>online betting is harming Australians and their families, and how

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<v Speaker 1>the systems meant to protect them are failing the Government

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<v Speaker 1>says it's acting, pointing to measures like bettstop and ID checks,

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<v Speaker 1>but a cross party inquiry led by the late Peter

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<v Speaker 1>Murphy called for much more, including an outright ban on

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<v Speaker 1>gambling advertising, and two and a half years on, they

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<v Speaker 1>haven't acted on any of its recommendations. Today, ABC investigative

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<v Speaker 1>reporter Steve Knaine on what his Four Corners reporting uncovered

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<v Speaker 1>and how Labour MPs are being kept quiet. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>November thirteenth, so I thought we could begin with this

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<v Speaker 1>letter to the Prime Minister that you got a hold of.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me what it's set?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a letter written by Andrew Wilkie addressed to

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<v Speaker 2>the Prime Minister, who he knows quite well and he

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<v Speaker 2>has respect for and he's calling on him to allow

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<v Speaker 2>a free voting parliament on legislation to ban gambling advertising.

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<v Speaker 2>And he said in that letter that he believed that

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<v Speaker 2>an advertising ban had strong community support and that the

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<v Speaker 2>policy also had substantial backing in the Parliament. And he said,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm quoting as evidenced by the number of our

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<v Speaker 2>parliamentary colleagues who've approached me since the recent ABC four

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<v Speaker 2>Corners program on online gambling. And he goes on to

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<v Speaker 2>say it would be naive for the government to think

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<v Speaker 2>it can continue to stonewall or drag out addressing the issue,

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<v Speaker 2>and that a free vote would be an effective way

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<v Speaker 2>to break the deadlock.

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<v Speaker 3>And he's referring there.

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<v Speaker 2>To the government's inaction on the parliamentary inquiry that was

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<v Speaker 2>chaired by the late Labor MP Peter Murphy that handed

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<v Speaker 2>down its report.

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<v Speaker 3>Close to two and a half years ago.

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<v Speaker 4>Now on behalf of the Standing Committee on Social Policy

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<v Speaker 4>and Legal Affairs, I present the committee's report entitled You

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<v Speaker 4>Win Some, You Lose More Online gambling and its impacts

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<v Speaker 4>on those experience in gambling harm.

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<v Speaker 3>And it was a.

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<v Speaker 2>Cross party report that came up with thirty one unanimous

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<v Speaker 2>recommendations including bringing in a national regulator and a national

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<v Speaker 2>ombudsman for online gambling, banning those kind of inducements that

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<v Speaker 2>are used in VIP schemes that keep those addicted gamblers betting,

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<v Speaker 2>and also this ban on gambling advertising, which has really

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<v Speaker 2>dominated the debate in this space.

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<v Speaker 5>The Committee has recommended a phased, comprehensive ban on all

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<v Speaker 5>gambling advertising on all media, broadcast and online of online

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<v Speaker 5>gambling services. It leaves no room for circumvention.

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<v Speaker 2>Partial bands haven't worked, and so Andrew Wilkie wrote this

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<v Speaker 2>letter for a few reasons. He wants action on gambling

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<v Speaker 2>reform has for years now. He thinks there's broad support

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<v Speaker 2>in the Parliament for the matter, and he also believes

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<v Speaker 2>that Labor backbenches are fearful about speaking out.

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<v Speaker 6>There's every chance they know someone with a gambling addiction.

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<v Speaker 6>It could be their mum or their dad, or their

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<v Speaker 6>brother or their sister, or their son or their daughter,

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<v Speaker 6>or their friend or.

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<v Speaker 3>Their work colleague.

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<v Speaker 6>And they look at us and they hear our debates

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<v Speaker 6>and they think, how can those politicians be so selfish

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<v Speaker 6>and so clueless and so weak?

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<v Speaker 1>And is that the case is their broad support among

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<v Speaker 1>Labor MPs and are they afraid of speaking out?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I spoke to over a dozen members of the

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<v Speaker 2>Labor caucus who want change on this matter. None of

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<v Speaker 2>them would put their names to what they said for

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<v Speaker 2>fear of repercussions. They not only want change, they think

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<v Speaker 2>if it was put to a conscience vote in the

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<v Speaker 2>Parliament that it would pass.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a number of Liberals who want action on this

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<v Speaker 3>as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Dunton wanted action on gambling advertising in the last parliament,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course the crossbencher all wanting action on this

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Now, if you combine the people I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to and the Labor MPs who are known to support

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<v Speaker 2>change but would not return my calls, and then if

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<v Speaker 2>you look at the condolence motions for the late Labor

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<v Speaker 2>MP Peter Murphy and what a number of Labor MPs

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<v Speaker 2>were saying about the gambling industry, it's fair to say

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<v Speaker 2>that there are dozens of people in the Labor caucus

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<v Speaker 2>who want change on.

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<v Speaker 1>This Okay, So if that is the case, then what

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<v Speaker 1>do you know about the way that the Prime Minister's

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<v Speaker 1>office is responding to this kind of broad consensus that

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<v Speaker 1>there needs to be some change.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Prime Minister had an opportunity to pick up

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<v Speaker 2>on these reforms before the last election. It seems pretty

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<v Speaker 2>clear that the Labor leadership were concerned about the power

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<v Speaker 2>of the lobby groups in that area. I've also been

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<v Speaker 2>told by Labor sources that the Prime Minister's office has

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<v Speaker 2>been putting pressure on advocates for gambling reform within the

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<v Speaker 2>Parliamentary Party to prevent them from speaking up. And I

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<v Speaker 2>certainly spoke to a number of Labor EMPTI he's in

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<v Speaker 2>the lead up to my Four Corners program, hoping to

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<v Speaker 2>convince them to come on the program and talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the matter, but they would not go on camera. I

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<v Speaker 2>asked the PM's office, whether they're staff or senior members

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<v Speaker 2>of the government, put pressure on Labor MPs not to

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<v Speaker 2>speak to Four Corners and also not to speak up

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<v Speaker 2>more broadly on this issue, but they did not answer

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<v Speaker 2>that question.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's where it sits at the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So that if that is the case, then that

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<v Speaker 1>the Prime Minister's office perhaps doesn't want people from the

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<v Speaker 1>party to be speaking about this. Can we talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the why why would the Prime minister be reticent to

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<v Speaker 1>take on the gambling industry?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the gambling industry is incredibly powerful in Australia. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's not just them who would lose out from this legislation.

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<v Speaker 2>If the government was to bring in a ban on

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<v Speaker 2>gambling advertising, they'd be upsetting three powerful lobby groups. That

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<v Speaker 2>would be the gambling industry itself, specifically the sports betting industry,

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<v Speaker 2>also the sporting codes who now make a large cut

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<v Speaker 2>from gambling revenue from betting on their sport and really

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<v Speaker 2>i'm talking there about the NRL and the AFL, but

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<v Speaker 2>also the commercial media, and in particular commercial media that

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<v Speaker 2>has TV stations that rely on gambling advertising for their revenue.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course those commercial TV networks have been under

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of pressure for their business model to succeed

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<v Speaker 2>in recent years because there has been less advertising. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not the golden goose that it used to be, and

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<v Speaker 2>we have seen that in the print media as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So it would involve taking on three powerful lobby groups.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's why Andrew wilk is saying make it a

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<v Speaker 2>free vote, make it across the parties, so that the

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<v Speaker 2>lobby group's power is diminished, that they can't target one

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<v Speaker 2>party over the other.

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<v Speaker 3>I think also there's another thing going on here.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the culturally the PM is sympathetic to the

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<v Speaker 2>sporting codes and the gambling industry. He's a big Souths fan,

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<v Speaker 2>that is genuine. He has been so since he was

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<v Speaker 2>a young boy. You see him in the NRL box

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<v Speaker 2>with Peter's. He took Peter Velandi's to the White House

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<v Speaker 2>for a dinner with Joe Biden. But there's also a

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<v Speaker 2>historical thing going on here. The Prime Minister is very pragmatic.

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<v Speaker 2>He understands the power of the lobby group. He was

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<v Speaker 2>around when Julia Gillard was in minority government had a

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<v Speaker 2>deal with Andrew wilk to bring in mandatory pre commitment

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<v Speaker 2>on poker machines, and he saw the backlash from the

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<v Speaker 2>club's industry and labour MPs including him were targeted by

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<v Speaker 2>the club's industry and in the end that commitment to

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<v Speaker 2>bring in mandatory commitment was broken. So I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>a number of things going on here. The power of

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<v Speaker 2>the lobby groups, the history of the gambling lobby. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a different part of the gambling lobby but did target

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<v Speaker 2>them back in the twenty tens. But also a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a cultural affinity between Anthony Albanesi and the sporting codes.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think there's a few things going on here.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. How Anthony Albanesi often shares talking points with

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<v Speaker 1>the gambling lobby Steve What is the Prime Minister Anthony

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<v Speaker 1>alb Easy and his office saying about the way that

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<v Speaker 1>they are approaching gambling reform.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, they say they've done more to reduce gambling harm

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<v Speaker 2>than any government in Australian history, and they point to

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<v Speaker 2>the fact they brought in betstop and a credit card

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<v Speaker 2>ban ID verification for online gambling.

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<v Speaker 7>Australians will be able to ban themselves from every online

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<v Speaker 7>betting company with just one simple registration. The National Self

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<v Speaker 7>Exclusion Register will also stop gambling companies from sending out

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<v Speaker 7>marketing material with the threat of big fines if they do.

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<v Speaker 3>And now, bet Stop is a good thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not a flawless system, but it's definitely improved people's

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<v Speaker 2>lives who've had gambling addictions, there's no doubt about that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I have spoken to people who've still been getting

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<v Speaker 2>contacted by betting agencies courtesy of that. But it should

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<v Speaker 2>be remembered that that was a process that was started

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<v Speaker 2>off under the Liberal government, so it's not entirely down

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<v Speaker 2>to the Labor Party that that is the case. I

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<v Speaker 2>asked the Prime Minister's Office on a couple of occasions,

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<v Speaker 2>name one recommendation that you've taken up from the Murphy Review,

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<v Speaker 2>and they never answer that question. They certainly haven't taken

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<v Speaker 2>up the main recommendations of the Murphy Review, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a ban on advertising, bringing in a national regulator and

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<v Speaker 2>a national mbudsman, having a Minister responsible for all of

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<v Speaker 2>the gambling issues, also banning inducements and banning commissions in

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<v Speaker 2>the industry. They certainly haven't tackled them. I've given them

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<v Speaker 2>an opportunity to tell me of one minor thing that

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<v Speaker 2>they've taken on from the Murphy Review, but they've never

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<v Speaker 2>provided that.

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<v Speaker 1>And you spoke to people within the industry itself, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people like the CEO of Responsible Wagering Australia. Tell me

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<v Speaker 1>about the case they're making.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Responsible Wagering Australia are a lobby group and a

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<v Speaker 2>peak body group that represents six of the biggest online

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<v Speaker 2>book makers, and I spoke to Kay Campwell, who is

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<v Speaker 2>the CEO of Responsible Wagering. I also put requests to

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<v Speaker 2>a number of the big batting agencies to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>their CEOs and they wouldn't put anyone forward, but Kay

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<v Speaker 2>camp Will did go on camera for four corners. Why

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't the industry support a total band because.

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<v Speaker 8>Total bands won't be effective. Total bands will simply drive

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<v Speaker 8>Australian consumers into the illegal offshore market where there are

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<v Speaker 8>no consumer protections.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, the Murphy Review heard evidence that was contrary to this,

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<v Speaker 2>and they cited the example of Spain that changed the

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<v Speaker 2>lord of prohibit gambling advertising between five am and one am,

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<v Speaker 2>and apparently the Spanish gambling regulator said that the predictions

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<v Speaker 2>of industry had not borne out.

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<v Speaker 8>We've seen evidence internationally, so we've seen evidence in Norway, Denmark, Sweden.

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<v Speaker 8>There is a swede of evidence across the world that

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<v Speaker 8>says that overregulation drives people into the illegal offshore market.

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<v Speaker 2>We spoke to authorities in those countries and they dispute

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<v Speaker 2>what he was saying.

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<v Speaker 1>We've heard the Prime Minister say the same thing as

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<v Speaker 1>well though, right yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>In an interview with Claudia Long of the ABC, he

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned that offshore argument.

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<v Speaker 9>What's in our mind is practicalities of whether people just

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<v Speaker 9>go offshore then there's no revenue at all, they engage

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<v Speaker 9>in gambling with no revenue coming back at all, and

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<v Speaker 9>it doesn't solve the problem.

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<v Speaker 3>He's also used that line the right to punt.

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<v Speaker 10>A gambling is legal in Australia. We respect people's right

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<v Speaker 10>to have a punt, but we also have a responsibility

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<v Speaker 10>to make sure that the industry acts responsibly and that's

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<v Speaker 10>what we're doing.

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<v Speaker 3>Also in question time in Parliament, when he.

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<v Speaker 2>Was asked a question about this last year, he suggested

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<v Speaker 2>that lotteries and loto were causing more harm than online betting.

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<v Speaker 10>More there around about fifteen percent. Off the top of

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<v Speaker 10>my head, it's about that figure comes from lotteries and

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<v Speaker 10>lot o and those tickets as well.

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<v Speaker 2>No one knows where those figures come from. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>stack up with the data. David Pocock Senator David Pocock,

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<v Speaker 2>the Independent Senator for the Act, told me that only

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<v Speaker 2>two people have said that publicly, the Prime Minister and

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Valandi's where.

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<v Speaker 3>Did these starts come from?

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<v Speaker 2>No one knows, No one has any idea and the

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<v Speaker 2>only two people who've said them publicly are Peter Landis

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<v Speaker 2>and the Prime Minister.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's a real worry.

0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.880
<v Speaker 2>So there's an argument from the cross benches and people

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.960
<v Speaker 2>who who are advocates for gambling reform, that the Prime

0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Minister is mimicking the retoric of the lobby groups here.

0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.920
<v Speaker 1>And what is the scope of what Australia is dealing with,

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Steve in terms of the harms of gambling and the

0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.439
<v Speaker 1>amount of money that's being lost.

0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, we lose more per head of population than any

0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 2>country in the world. The most recent things we have

0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:04.680
<v Speaker 2>that we lose thirty two billion dollars a year. That's

0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.800
<v Speaker 2>not how much we gamble, that's how much we lose.

0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And look, the Productivity Commission has looked into this twice.

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 2>They consider it incredibly unproductive that this money is being

0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.720
<v Speaker 2>spent in this way, not to mention the social harm

0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.440
<v Speaker 2>it affects families. And in our Four Corners program, you know,

0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:24.960
<v Speaker 2>we spoke to people who, courtesy of addictions to online

0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.199
<v Speaker 2>sports betting, had family members who'd taken their own lives,

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.280
<v Speaker 2>people who to end up in jail. I've spoken to

0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:35.360
<v Speaker 2>people whose businesses have been defrauded, or people who've had

0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.960
<v Speaker 2>financial advisors steal their money because they were in the

0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 2>throes of a gambling addiction that was being encouraged by

0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.360
<v Speaker 2>VIP managers who work for these sports betting industries and

0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.360
<v Speaker 2>everyone you talk to has a story. Everyone knows somebody

0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:53.000
<v Speaker 2>who's been exposed to this kind of harm.

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.400
<v Speaker 1>And the fact that Peter Murphy's review, you know, it's

0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.720
<v Speaker 1>two and a half years on her thirty one recommends

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.360
<v Speaker 1>haven't been put in place by the Labor Party. But

0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 1>this is the legacy of someone who was incredibly popular

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.400
<v Speaker 1>within the party and well known. So the fact that

0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.720
<v Speaker 1>you know there has not been action on this at

0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 1>this point in time, what does it say to you, Steve,

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 1>about where the Labor Party is at on this issue

0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:19.080
<v Speaker 1>at the moment.

0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, they really are dragging their feet on the issue.

0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Because it's standard practice that a parliamentary inquiry like this

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.360
<v Speaker 2>that the Government of the day responds within six months,

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 2>and it's now two and a half years. It shows

0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 2>you the reticence within the leadership to take on this issue.

0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.160
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people say it's the fear of the

0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.120
<v Speaker 2>gambling lobby, the fear of the commercial media, the fear

0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.360
<v Speaker 2>of the sporting codes. It also shows you the fear

0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 2>of the backbench. They're not really speaking out about it,

0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.920
<v Speaker 2>despite the fact that there are so many in the

0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Labor caucus who believe in gambling reform. I think it

0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.040
<v Speaker 2>also speaks to another issue, which is it's not an

0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.000
<v Speaker 2>issue that's coming out in polling in focus groups, that

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.920
<v Speaker 2>perhaps this is not an issue compared to say, the

0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 2>cost of living. If it was something that was being

0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 2>rammed down the politician's throats, and they might take action

0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>on it. But bear in mind that this committee was

0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.120
<v Speaker 2>a cross party committee. They weighed the evidence, they heard

0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 2>from all sides of the argument, They got international evidence

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and research. So most people who know the area say

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:29.400
<v Speaker 2>that it was a very thorough, very rigorous committee process

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.000
<v Speaker 2>and that Peter Murphy came up with some strong recommendations

0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:38.040
<v Speaker 2>that would minimize harm from an industry that many people,

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:42.240
<v Speaker 2>including many people in the labor Caucus, consider to be

0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 2>full of predatory practices.

0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, Steve, thank you so much for your time.

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 3>My pleasure to be.

0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.360
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, former CFMU leader John Set has

0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.040
<v Speaker 1>been arrested and charged by Victoria police after allegedly send

0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 1>threatening and harassing emails to a union administrator. The sixty

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.760
<v Speaker 1>one year old has been charged with seven counts of

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 1>using a telecom communications device to menace, harass and defend

0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.880
<v Speaker 1>and Australia and Indonesia have agreed on a new security

0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.680
<v Speaker 1>treaty that commits the countries to consult each other if

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.480
<v Speaker 1>either is threatened. Prime Minister Anthony Abnezi says the treaty

0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.320
<v Speaker 1>also commits to regular security dialogue between leaders and closer

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 1>cooperation in defense and security fields. I'm Ruby Jones. This

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 1>is seven am. Thanks for listening.