Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains coarse
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian.
Speaker 2: You and I have both done a lot of knocking
Speaker 2: on doors Headley, and it's one of the hardest things
Speaker 2: in journalism. It's to go and knock on a door,
Speaker 2: cold and introduce yourself and just hope that you can
Speaker 2: get people talking to you. Often it's in very tragic
Speaker 2: circumstances where someone has died.
Speaker 1: My friend and colleague Claire Harvey, driving our south to
Speaker 1: a suburb called Illawong, in an area we've been calling
Speaker 1: the Shire throughout this Bromwin podcast series.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful morning in Sydney.
Speaker 2: It's just stopped raining and there's a very cloudy, windswept
Speaker 2: sky and the streets are drying out.
Speaker 1: We are heading to the house John Winfield helped build
Speaker 1: in May nineteen ninety three. It must be worth at
Speaker 1: least three million dollars. We have decided to approach the
Speaker 1: owners for the first time, to rip off the band
Speaker 1: aid and tell them about our suspicions and the suspicions
Speaker 1: of senior lawyers and former detectives that this attractive two
Speaker 1: level property may be Bromlin's resting place.
Speaker 2: Well, often people are really happy to tell their stories.
Speaker 2: They want to honor the person who's passed away.
Speaker 1: I agree. Sometimes it is cathartic. They like to honor
Speaker 1: their loved one. But in this case, we're not talking
Speaker 1: to a grieving relation. We're hoping to talk to the
Speaker 1: owners of a property who may have no idea of
Speaker 1: our growing suspicion about possibly Bromwin's remains being buried. Beneath
Speaker 1: a patio or a garage slab is the one location
Speaker 1: that takes a lot of boxes that makes most sense.
Speaker 4: It is possible.
Speaker 2: I suppose that their lives are busy and that they
Speaker 2: haven't heard about it. If they had heard about it
Speaker 2: and they've been waiting for us to get in touch,
Speaker 2: I feel for them. I feel that there must have
Speaker 2: been a difficult situation to be in. If they haven't,
Speaker 2: it's going to be.
Speaker 5: A big surprise. At the very least.
Speaker 2: This is a house that John Winfield was working on
Speaker 2: in the days before and after the disappearance of his wife.
Speaker 4: I'd want to know that too.
Speaker 2: If I was the owner of the house, if I
Speaker 2: had heard that this was happening at my house and
Speaker 2: the police didn't want to dig it up.
Speaker 5: I'd be digging it up myself.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be out of bear the uncertainty.
Speaker 2: Absolutely on the idea that you might unwittingly be concealing
Speaker 2: the body of a murder victim.
Speaker 1: That was the turn off to Illowong. If they are home,
Speaker 1: I've got no idea whether they're going to talk to us.
Speaker 1: In an earlier episode, you heard Karina Berger and I
Speaker 1: debating whether to make this approach. Claire Harvey was in
Speaker 1: no doubt that we needed to at least try to
Speaker 1: talk to the owners, but not to ask them for anything.
Speaker 1: We have resolved that even if we had their permission,
Speaker 1: we would not attempt an excavation and search. While there's
Speaker 1: still a prospect of that occurring under the supervision of
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit or the
Speaker 1: State Coroner, Theresa O'Sullivan. We do not know what, if anything,
Speaker 1: they are doing in relation to this place. But before
Speaker 1: driving to Ilawong, we decided that the owners of the
Speaker 1: home do deserve a briefing from us, even though it's
Speaker 1: possible that they have been oblivious to everything that has
Speaker 1: been speculated and reported in the podcast these past twelve months.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, they might be across every detail.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I feel like we need to tell them that as
Speaker 1: gently as possible.
Speaker 2: I can't decide whether I'm hoping that they know about
Speaker 2: the podcast and that they've been waiting for us to come,
Speaker 2: or that they have no idea at all.
Speaker 1: It's a lovely area.
Speaker 2: Classic Australian suburbia around here, isn't it your for lawns,
Speaker 2: nice gardens?
Speaker 1: Thirty two years ago this area in Illawong was not
Speaker 1: well established. There were not many homes now here.
Speaker 3: We are in the street, this one here.
Speaker 1: With the the property.
Speaker 4: Hello.
Speaker 1: Back in the car. Sometime later we debriefed abjectively, we
Speaker 1: looked quite unusual. Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2: We look like either.
Speaker 3: Cops or bit collectors.
Speaker 2: I'd kind of imagined a veranda or a porch that
Speaker 2: was basically just concrete. I hadn't expected something that's quite
Speaker 2: so established, like it's tiled.
Speaker 3: It's very nice.
Speaker 1: Claire stared the family wagon back onto the main road
Speaker 1: out of Illawong and in the direction of the beach
Speaker 1: and Crinulla, where we have another important commitment. One final group.
Speaker 1: Meeting with the three most staunch people I've come to
Speaker 1: know in this podcast investigation.
Speaker 3: Maddie and Andy and Michelle.
Speaker 4: Just going to get it.
Speaker 1: Approve, they'll be fine. I actually let Andy know this morning. Okay,
Speaker 1: I said, this is what we're going to do. We've
Speaker 1: waited up, gone back and forth about it, but at
Speaker 1: the end, our job is to ask questions, and we
Speaker 1: try to do that with as much thoughtfulness as possible.
Speaker 1: But if we stop asking questions, stop knocking on doors,
Speaker 1: where do you draw the line? Yeah, you'll hear more
Speaker 1: about our visit to the house in Ilawan later in
Speaker 1: this episode.
Speaker 6: We came here for our last anniversion.
Speaker 1: Our meeting place, a restaurant near the beach, is well
Speaker 1: known to Andy and Michelle.
Speaker 2: Well, here's two you guys being married for thirty five years.
Speaker 3: Podcast nearly over, isn't it. Yeah, it's nearly over.
Speaker 1: Fifteen months earlier, I spoke to Bromin's brother Andy and
Speaker 1: his wife Michelle on the phone about the probable scale
Speaker 1: and duration of the planned Bromin podcast investigation. Here's a
Speaker 1: snippet from that time, when we were just days away
Speaker 1: from the release of episode one called John's Castle. We're
Speaker 1: talking about a series of maybe eight, nine or ten episodes,
Speaker 1: so it's not going to be over quickly. Andy and
Speaker 1: Michelle were told back then about what we hope the
Speaker 1: impact of the early episodes would have on listeners, particularly
Speaker 1: those with information about bromin her disappearance and John. When
Speaker 1: they start listening and appreciating what's being done and hearing
Speaker 1: the different accounts and seeing the momentum, that's when people
Speaker 1: who have been silent, who haven't wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: the cops or to journalists before, just start feeling naturally
Speaker 1: pretty guilty, feeling like they should have come forward and
Speaker 1: said something now. At lunch and on the eve of
Speaker 1: episode thirty six, in a series which I never expected
Speaker 1: would cover this much ground and hear from so many
Speaker 1: people with information, Michelle pondered questions about this production coming
Speaker 1: to an end at least for now.
Speaker 7: You hope that the podcast might still generate someone else's interest,
Speaker 7: or it might push someone who's sitting back and wanting
Speaker 7: to say something but too frightened too for some reason.
Speaker 3: Which you know we know there are people like that.
Speaker 3: Do you have any regrets about being involved? None at all.
Speaker 3: It's been great.
Speaker 2: There have obviously been some pretty harrowing times with your
Speaker 2: family like this has been hard.
Speaker 3: You guys are right at the center of it.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about the family's feelings.
Speaker 6: It's been hard to spring up and down right. A
Speaker 6: lot of more through the whole thing. Some people struggling
Speaker 6: with wanting a bit more relevant.
Speaker 2: Back when we started, you obviously had a relationship with
Speaker 2: your sister Kim in Tasmania and with your cousin Megan.
Speaker 2: Do you speak to them now?
Speaker 6: Not currently.
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 8: The messages and the scathingness of them that I received
Speaker 8: from Megan, they're just not so unacceptable.
Speaker 6: I couldn't matter how much you hate someone.
Speaker 8: There's no need to say the things that she comes
Speaker 8: up with.
Speaker 6: I'm after answers for Braun. I'm after justice for Braun,
Speaker 6: nothing else, nothing else.
Speaker 4: It's quite complicated.
Speaker 9: They were already problems before it even happened, because not
Speaker 9: everyone is going to remember things the same way, and
Speaker 9: not everyone is going to want to remember things the
Speaker 9: same way.
Speaker 4: It just got put under the spotlight.
Speaker 1: Megan takes the view that the police investigation early on
Speaker 1: failed because you and Michelle tried to control with and
Speaker 1: not allow other members of the family to be involved.
Speaker 8: In the early piece in relation to Meagan just can
Speaker 8: ring me one day. He just said to me, every
Speaker 8: time must be to this blot. He has an answer
Speaker 8: prepared because he knows what the family's doing.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 8: That's when I've said to Diskin, do not accept any
Speaker 8: phone calls, do speak with Megan anymore, because somehow John's
Speaker 8: finding out everything that the family knows and thinks.
Speaker 1: Do you think that it's your exclusion of Megan and
Speaker 1: her knowledge that you excluded her that has caused a
Speaker 1: lot of the acrimony.
Speaker 8: When she admits in her statement that she was in
Speaker 8: constant contract with him.
Speaker 2: Let's that doesn't go any further any Let's just say
Speaker 2: nothing happens now, there are no charges laid. The police
Speaker 2: come back to you in a month and say, look, sorry,
Speaker 2: we haven't done anything.
Speaker 3: There's nowhere to go. How would you feel if that happened.
Speaker 6: No, I'd be mortified, devastated Obra.
Speaker 8: Eightwo months ago, they sat there and said, at the moment,
Speaker 8: unless there's any further evidence coming forwards, there's nothing more
Speaker 8: we can do for you.
Speaker 10: Now.
Speaker 8: The podcast has run its course. As far as I'm concerned,
Speaker 8: it'splaying the ship out of the water come up with
Speaker 8: that many relevant facts. Everyone that knows me locally around
Speaker 8: here and that that follows the podcast just says, how
Speaker 8: can they d prepre and the please get it that
Speaker 8: far wrong would be quite devastating if it doesn't proceed.
Speaker 2: I remember once another of a we said child said
Speaker 2: to me, your greatest VINCEL Thomas sine unit opened the
Speaker 2: lid on the boss one for years, said oh, there's
Speaker 2: nothing new, and then shut the room within.
Speaker 6: Well, that's what it felt like until the podcast started.
Speaker 8: We'd basically given up because I used to just make
Speaker 8: that constant annual phone call.
Speaker 6: And god ring here after year, any news, what's going on?
Speaker 8: All they do is check whether bank account's being touched
Speaker 8: and come back to you and go, no, yeah, mad car,
Speaker 8: your card hasn't been touched. Bank account has and boon
Speaker 8: touched year after year, until finally that.
Speaker 6: Blagrit moved on and I was never ever given another contract.
Speaker 8: Unelful, very unellful. Just prove how in NEPP the system
Speaker 8: can be.
Speaker 1: Visitors to the new South Wales Police headquarters in Paramatta
Speaker 1: see a public display a tribute to many hundreds of
Speaker 1: people who are missing. Their disappearance is unresolved an unknown
Speaker 1: number of murder victims. It is particularly poignant now in
Speaker 1: this first week of August twenty twenty five, Australia's National
Speaker 1: Missing Person's Week. The catalyst for this annual week of
Speaker 1: action was the disappearance of twenty year old Tony Jones
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty two. This year's campaign theme is Forever Loved,
Speaker 1: which is also very fitting for Bromin Winfield and her family.
Speaker 7: And you just think to yourself, there are so many
Speaker 7: people who missing and you watch them go on the screens.
Speaker 7: If you've got a missing person in your family, you've
Speaker 7: got to get on there and push. You can't sit back.
Speaker 7: You've got to be proactive. You've got to be a
Speaker 7: thorn in their side really and just keep going, don't
Speaker 7: give up.
Speaker 1: We know that the police don't really approve of journalists
Speaker 1: doing cold case investigations of unsolved on in this case though,
Speaker 1: they should not be disapproving because they had told you
Speaker 1: there was nowhere else they could go. They couldn't take
Speaker 1: it any further unless there's fresh evidence.
Speaker 8: The fresh evidence has all come from the podcast and
Speaker 8: all the work that's been done by to shelf.
Speaker 6: Everything we've been able to find out.
Speaker 7: How sad is it that Judy Singh went to two
Speaker 7: police stations and was not taken seriously. That just blows
Speaker 7: me away what they think she was a crazy person
Speaker 7: or something.
Speaker 3: She's also a filler of the community and n that's
Speaker 3: just incredible to me.
Speaker 7: That was a pivotal point in the whole podcast, wasn't it.
Speaker 8: I said it to you Leon the night that we
Speaker 8: spoke on the phone for a couple of hours after
Speaker 8: the Judy scene episode, and I said.
Speaker 7: The.
Speaker 3: Mum they adored, did you think when this started? Oh
Speaker 3: my god, this is gon worry the family out.
Speaker 4: There's no winning.
Speaker 9: Everyone's lost something, everyone's losing something.
Speaker 4: And yes, there are so many feelings involved in.
Speaker 9: This, but there's really one objective.
Speaker 7: That's the only objective, and it has been the only
Speaker 7: objective from the day that we found out she was gone.
Speaker 3: Andrew is Roman's brother.
Speaker 7: His status isn't here anymore, his Mum's not here anymore.
Speaker 7: Andrew has always felt that he could never give up
Speaker 7: on his sister.
Speaker 5: Always.
Speaker 7: We've had so many ups and downs, Andrew even in
Speaker 7: himself with his own health over all.
Speaker 3: Of this, purely with his frustration.
Speaker 7: Of not having the case moving forward. I've lived it
Speaker 7: with him the whole time. His only objective is to
Speaker 7: find out the truth, that's all. If it were the
Speaker 7: case that something happened to when other than what the
Speaker 7: facts point.
Speaker 3: To, that would be acceptable.
Speaker 7: And the pursuit of the truth has pointed us down
Speaker 7: this path to this one person from the day he
Speaker 7: walked on to.
Speaker 5: Our front Verandah, I don't want to talk in front
Speaker 5: of the kids.
Speaker 7: The kids were inside, and nothing about Ronwin has ever
Speaker 7: been spoken about to the kids, never allowed to be questioned.
Speaker 7: We're never allowed to bring up Romman's name in front
Speaker 7: of the kids, like it was crazy. And your mum's
Speaker 7: done this, your mum's run away, your mum's mentally ill.
Speaker 4: That whole thing was pushed.
Speaker 3: Down their throats.
Speaker 7: I think they're just frightened to know the truth. And
Speaker 7: I guess that's understandable too, if that's how this.
Speaker 3: All ends up.
Speaker 7: Because she was five, she's only going to believe what
Speaker 7: she's fed. And that's a big thing for anybody. When
Speaker 7: you've been told the one thing the whole time and
Speaker 7: it's not true. What else is a five year old
Speaker 7: going to believe when they don't know anything better, and
Speaker 7: they're not allowed to talk to their family of their mother.
Speaker 7: Who would be able to reinforce the fact that no.
Speaker 3: Your mum wouldn't have gone away. Your mum loved you.
Speaker 7: We never ever were able to do that, And that's
Speaker 7: so sad.
Speaker 1: And when you talking before about the possibility of roum,
Speaker 1: when her body being in the boot and those children
Speaker 1: on the back seat, and you were obviously upset, I
Speaker 1: understand why how much weight do you give that theory?
Speaker 1: Given everything you've now heard.
Speaker 6: It looks more probable than not. It's a master search.
Speaker 6: That's where she could be. So she's there.
Speaker 8: I think she's going to be in the back corner
Speaker 8: of the garage or along that side.
Speaker 6: Walk which is the laundry backing onto the garage.
Speaker 4: Would you want to know this is your property?
Speaker 7: Look that for us, and someone said to us, we
Speaker 7: believe that there might be or somebody.
Speaker 3: Buried on your property. I would want that affirmed. I
Speaker 3: would want that done.
Speaker 7: As horrible as it sounds, I would want them to
Speaker 7: go ahead and do whatever they needed to do. The
Speaker 7: chance has to be taken. You can't go on going
Speaker 7: is she isn't she?
Speaker 3: There needs to be an answer.
Speaker 7: The podcast has been able to extract more information than
Speaker 7: we've ever known before, and vital information. If all of
Speaker 7: that information now doesn't do the deed, we're going to
Speaker 7: be struggling, aren't we.
Speaker 3: How many more chances are we going to have?
Speaker 8: It wasn't until you've build into it to the depths
Speaker 8: that we have through the podcast that all these different
Speaker 8: facts and new facts came out. It didn't got the
Speaker 8: information about when the sign off was for the slabs
Speaker 8: and the whole thing started just falling into place.
Speaker 4: Ultimately, the police should have picked that up.
Speaker 7: The fact that the place was trime for something like
Speaker 7: that to happen, and we know that now.
Speaker 3: We didn't know that.
Speaker 8: I don't think Glenn's suspected it either, But then when
Speaker 8: you sat there and you put those few facts to imy,
Speaker 8: when Wow.
Speaker 7: I don't think there's very many other places she could
Speaker 7: possibly be and not have been found, not have washed up,
Speaker 7: not have been uncovered.
Speaker 3: I think I'm strongly of the view.
Speaker 7: I don't really think there's any other alternative.
Speaker 1: Everybody was suspicious of the circumstances of the trip to Sydney,
Speaker 1: and everybody was suspicious of the dropping off of the
Speaker 1: children with the ex wife's mother in law and concerned
Speaker 1: about what the lies that John told about his movements
Speaker 1: might have meant.
Speaker 6: Why was he distancing himself from certain things?
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until those documents became available because of
Speaker 1: your connection to a long serving council staff who founded
Speaker 1: in archives.
Speaker 4: Well, working with what we have and we've done as
Speaker 4: much as we can, I'm.
Speaker 6: Stronger in the view now with everything you know.
Speaker 4: Digging and graves actually very difficult.
Speaker 9: He was Russian and he would not have arrived in
Speaker 9: Sydney as early as he did if he went into.
Speaker 4: The middle of the woods or off the highway.
Speaker 1: And Doug sadly, mate, I think that if Roman isn't
Speaker 1: there Atilawung, he'll probably never find.
Speaker 11: Right after agree yeah.
Speaker 1: The following morning, Maddie joined me in the nine Network
Speaker 1: studio in Sydney for a live TV interview, perhaps the
Speaker 1: last one will do together about this case. Maddie will
Speaker 1: be joining the new South Wales Police Force in coming months.
Speaker 1: They're lucky to have this intelligent forensic science graduate. She's strong,
Speaker 1: independent and wise beyond her years, and she's been a
Speaker 1: great help to me and this podcast investigation.
Speaker 12: It's been thirty two years see bronwyin Winfield's disappearance from
Speaker 12: her home in Lennox Head, with police yet to locate
Speaker 12: her remains.
Speaker 1: The Today Shows co anchor Sarah Arbo went straight to
Speaker 1: the point.
Speaker 12: After all this time, are we any closer to finding
Speaker 12: out what happens?
Speaker 1: We believe that we are, and that the evidence that's
Speaker 1: come out through multiple witnesses who hadn't talked to the
Speaker 1: police before or who hadn't been taken seriously before, as
Speaker 1: well as some powerfully compelling circumstantial evidence pointing to where
Speaker 1: Bromlin's remains may have been concealed, show that there is
Speaker 1: a lot there that can be developed further by police
Speaker 1: and possibly by people with specialized search and excavation equipment.
Speaker 12: That's incredible, and I do want to come to that,
Speaker 12: and I know you two have been working closely with
Speaker 12: these past eight ten months on this podcast. What's it
Speaker 12: been like from the family's perspective to have all this
Speaker 12: brought back up.
Speaker 9: In a way it has restored a lot of hope
Speaker 9: for us. I mean, we went thirty one years with
Speaker 9: nothing happening, and it was a constant thing that Andy
Speaker 9: Bronwin's brother had brought up with the police to try
Speaker 9: and get them to look back into it and put
Speaker 9: it out to the public and the media that something
Speaker 9: actually eventually started happening and people started coming out of
Speaker 9: the woodwork, and we now know so much more than
Speaker 9: we did before.
Speaker 12: And you mentioned the potential site where Bronwin's remains may be.
Speaker 12: You've identified a concrete slab. Do you think that's likely
Speaker 12: to ever be excavated?
Speaker 1: I believe that senior police serving and former regarded as
Speaker 1: a priority site that needs to be looked at, if
Speaker 1: only to be ruled out if there is going to
Speaker 1: be any further action taken in so far as a
Speaker 1: possible prosecution, which was recommended by the coroner back in
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, then they wouldn't want to go
Speaker 1: forward with that not knowing what might be beneath that slab.
Speaker 1: And it's just the timing around the concrete pause that
Speaker 1: were occurring there when John was working there as a
Speaker 1: brick layer, these other factors, his omissions about what he
Speaker 1: was doing that day, they're quite troubling when you put
Speaker 1: it all together. And that's why Glenn Taylor said if
Speaker 1: he had known this information back then, he would have
Speaker 1: got a search order there himself. They all point to
Speaker 1: something very troubling and then something concerning happening in the
Speaker 1: Shy in relation to the possible disposal of a body,
Speaker 1: but he's always denied wrongdoing.
Speaker 12: It's incredible, isn't it. A podcast like this can con
Speaker 12: cover and the people who come forward as well with
Speaker 12: what they remember.
Speaker 1: Even at this very late stage of the investigation, we
Speaker 1: are still finding out important information.
Speaker 5: I was the owner of Intercutz and I employed Jody
Speaker 5: Winfield as apprentice, so she started with me when she
Speaker 5: was maybe sixteen. I actually solved the salon and so
Speaker 5: she was probably there till she was twenty two. An
Speaker 5: amazing hairdresser and just lovely, gentle, beautiful girl. Actually we
Speaker 5: had been out socially a couple of times. Was Bromwyn
Speaker 5: and John.
Speaker 1: We know that John says he turned up at the
Speaker 1: salon in the Shire on the morning of Monday, May seventeenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and he spoke to his daughter Jodi,
Speaker 1: who was working there. She has said in evidence that
Speaker 1: she was excited and happy to see her father and
Speaker 1: the two young girls. They had driven through the night
Speaker 1: from Lennox Head to Sydney, you'll also recall a purported
Speaker 1: telephone call made by bromwn Winfield the next day to
Speaker 1: the salon. Andy Reid and police have long suspected that
Speaker 1: Bromwin had been murdered on the evening of Sunday. Somebody
Speaker 1: falsely pretending to be Bromwin must have made that call.
Speaker 1: Earlier in this podcast investigation, I sat with Maddie Walsh
Speaker 1: and Andy Reid in his car outside the Intercut's hair salon.
Speaker 1: Andy recalled having been told by John about this purported
Speaker 1: call in May nineteen ninety three, and Andy went directly
Speaker 1: to the salon. Back then he waited to talk to
Speaker 1: a woman whom he believed was Tanya Robertson, one of
Speaker 1: the hairdressers.
Speaker 8: I watched and waited for the last client to walk
Speaker 8: out of that shop, and then I walked over there,
Speaker 8: knocked on the door, introduced myself, told Tanya Robinson who
Speaker 8: I was, and asked her about the phone call. I
Speaker 8: spoke to her and I said, John and Jad have
Speaker 8: told me that there was a phone call to the salon.
Speaker 6: And she says to me, yes, that's correct.
Speaker 8: There was a phone call around lunch time, just after lunch,
Speaker 8: and it was a free male voice.
Speaker 6: I can't and tell you whether it was wronging, but
Speaker 6: it was.
Speaker 8: It's a female voice sighing and stating that I'm in
Speaker 8: Conchland and tell Jody I'm not coming back.
Speaker 1: The identity of the caller has never been confirmed. In
Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety eight statement to police, Tania Robertson did
Speaker 1: not remember ever receiving a phone call from a woman
Speaker 1: purporting to be Bromwin on that day.
Speaker 2: We know that.
Speaker 1: Bromwin did telephone the salon from time to time to
Speaker 1: try to talk to Jody there, and Michelle O Flanagan
Speaker 1: told my colleague Karina Berger that these calls were very troubling.
Speaker 1: We were surprised at what Michelle disclosed next.
Speaker 13: Can you remember anything about Bronwyn and John's circumstances at
Speaker 13: that time.
Speaker 5: I can remember there was a couple of phone calls
Speaker 5: which were quite upsetting for Jody's I think brom would
Speaker 5: have rung maybe a couple of times, and then they'd
Speaker 5: had a conversation and Jody had got a little bit
Speaker 5: upset regarding the phone calls. And I do kind of
Speaker 5: remember on one occasion there was a phone call and
Speaker 5: I just said to her, look Bronwin, you can't be
Speaker 5: ringing Jody. This is her workplace, she's at work. She
Speaker 5: kind of went off a little bit and can't remember
Speaker 5: the exact words she said, but it was something along
Speaker 5: the lines he's trying to kill me or something. She
Speaker 5: was obviously quite scared. I felt that come across.
Speaker 13: Just to clarify the timing, these calls were happening in
Speaker 13: the lead up to Bronwin's disappearance, not after her disappearance.
Speaker 5: No, No, it was definitely before the disappearance. From what
Speaker 5: I can remember, she was obviously petrified, sounds scared. Well,
Speaker 5: you can't be ringing here, like it's really got nothing
Speaker 5: to do with Jody, and she was at work. We
Speaker 5: were trying to work, and it was quite upsetting for Jody.
Speaker 5: That's when I'd said, look, you've just got to stop
Speaker 5: calling here. You can't be calling here, calling Jody. If
Speaker 5: it's that bad, called the police. I don't think I
Speaker 5: actually said that, but I just said, stop calling here,
Speaker 5: You've just got to stop. It was frustrating because we're
Speaker 5: trying to run a business.
Speaker 13: Can you remember any trigger for the call when Bronwyn
Speaker 13: told you that John was trying to kill her? Can
Speaker 13: you remember why she was particularly fearful on that occasion.
Speaker 5: I think that was actually maybe when I just hung
Speaker 5: up on her and told her to stop calling because
Speaker 5: it had nothing to do with us, really, and don't
Speaker 5: ring the workout was because we're kind of getting a
Speaker 5: little bit sick of the calls and work interruptions.
Speaker 13: Did you ever get any appreciation of what Bronwin was
Speaker 13: actually hoping to achieve through the phone calls?
Speaker 5: Well, I suppose she was probably trying to get Jody
Speaker 5: to talk to a father. Jody had a lot of
Speaker 5: respect for him.
Speaker 1: Michelle o flanagan believes that she told police about her
Speaker 1: discussion with Bromwyn, the one in which Bronwyn had said
Speaker 1: words like he's trying to kill me. I spoke to
Speaker 1: Michelle o flanagan too while I was sitting with Andy
Speaker 1: and his wife, Michelle Reid in the Shire shortly before
Speaker 1: this episode was released, and the former owner of Intercuts
Speaker 1: told me that she clearly remembered Broman expressing her fear
Speaker 1: of John and of being concerned that he would kill her.
Speaker 1: I asked her if she put this in her statement,
Speaker 1: which was briefly mentioned at the inquest. Michelle said yes,
Speaker 1: that she would have done this, but we do not
Speaker 1: have access to that statement, and there is no mention
Speaker 1: in the transcript from the two thousand and two inquest
Speaker 1: of Michelle possibly being able to give evidence about Bromin
Speaker 1: telling her sometime in the weeks before her disappearance words
Speaker 1: to the effect that John was trying to kill her.
Speaker 1: Michelle was not called to give evidence at the inquest.
Speaker 1: Michelle o flanigan's statement was not generated in the usual
Speaker 1: way by the then detective Sergeant Glen Tae. He got
Speaker 1: most of the statements that were relied upon in nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety eight and nineteen ninety nine. The police prosecutor who
Speaker 1: was assisting the Deputy State coroner in the inquest in
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, Matt Fordham, told the inquest that
Speaker 1: Michelle's statement was quote supplied through my friend end quote,
Speaker 1: and this means the statement was obtained through John Winfield's lawyer,
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett. Michelle o' flanagan has been upfront with Corena
Speaker 1: and me. She said that she remains in telephone contact
Speaker 1: with Jody from time to time and she has valued
Speaker 1: their friendly connection over the years. She hasn't seen John
Speaker 1: for quite some time. She was apprehensive about talking on
Speaker 1: the record with careenring me. However, she resolved that it
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. She did recall being
Speaker 1: contacted to make her statement, but she doesn't have a
Speaker 1: copy herself.
Speaker 5: I can remember when it was interviewed here on the
Speaker 5: Sunshine Coast. They asked questions about the phone call and
Speaker 5: where Jodi lived in a couple of other things. I
Speaker 5: just remember saying to them, lot my brain was like
Speaker 5: meshed potato and peas because I just had a baby,
Speaker 5: and it's so long ago. Obviously my brain was a
Speaker 5: bit fried around that time, so it's all a little
Speaker 5: bit of a blur. The phone calls I do remember,
Speaker 5: because obviously they interrupted the workflow, and the fact that
Speaker 5: she was quite upset because obviously she thought he was
Speaker 5: trying to kill her.
Speaker 1: Jodi Winfield also mentioned Bromwin telephoning the salon in her
Speaker 1: police statement, but Jodi Winfield did not say anything in
Speaker 1: her statement or in her oral evidence at the inquest
Speaker 1: about Bromwin expressing fears in her calls to the salon
Speaker 1: about John purportedly wanting to kill her.
Speaker 14: I'm also aware that she telephoned my boss, Michelle O'Flanagan
Speaker 14: at the hair salon and she wanted to speak to me.
Speaker 14: Michelle told her that she could not speak to me
Speaker 14: during work hours and to telephone me at home. Michelle
Speaker 14: was aware of the problems between Dad and Bronwyn, and
Speaker 14: when she told her this, Bronwin apparently abused her over
Speaker 14: the phone, and Michelle hung up on her because she
Speaker 14: was ranting and raving.
Speaker 1: Karina asked Michelle o flanagan about some of the other
Speaker 1: alleged events at the salon.
Speaker 13: If we moved to about that time of Bronwin's disappearance,
Speaker 13: so she was last seen on the Sunday evening, the
Speaker 13: sixteenth of May, and then on the Monday the following day.
Speaker 13: Would you have any recollection of John visiting the salon
Speaker 13: at all and speaking to Jody?
Speaker 5: Not really, I would be taking a bit of a
Speaker 5: stab in the dark. Maybe he did, I couldn't be sure.
Speaker 13: The reason I ask is that Jody's recollection is that
Speaker 13: her dad arrived unexpectedly out of the blue at the
Speaker 13: hairdressing salon on the Monday morning and had her too
Speaker 13: siblings with him in the car.
Speaker 5: Oh, actually, yes, I think he did too. Yeah, Candy
Speaker 5: girls in the back of the car. Yeah, carrying about
Speaker 5: for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1: Many hair salons are closed on Mondays. Michelle said that
Speaker 1: she was confident in her recollection that intercuts traded from
Speaker 1: Monday through to Saturday.
Speaker 5: We were definitely open up. We always opened on a Monday.
Speaker 1: Karina asked Michelle about the alleged phone call, the one
Speaker 1: in which a woman purporting to be Bromin called the
Speaker 1: salon on Tuesday, May eighteen, nineteen ninety three, but Michelle
Speaker 1: did not have a clear memory of the circumstances surrounding
Speaker 1: that one. During the inquest, John's lawyer, Craig Leggett read
Speaker 1: onto the record some of Michelle o'flannagan's statement about the call.
Speaker 15: Michelle flanagan says, on Tuesday eighteen May ninety ninety three,
Speaker 15: I was on my roster day off. Tanya Robertson, an
Speaker 15: employee at the salon, was working that day. On my
Speaker 15: days off, i'd go into the salon and check how
Speaker 15: things were going each day and take the takings for
Speaker 15: the day. I went into the salon this day at
Speaker 15: about four pm. I recall that on this day Tanya
Speaker 15: told me that bronin Winfield had called and had left
Speaker 15: a message for Jody that she was leaving the kids
Speaker 15: and going away, and that Jody would have to help
Speaker 15: her father to look after the children.
Speaker 1: Jackie, you're one of many listeners who have been on
Speaker 1: this journey with the podcast, and you sent me a
Speaker 1: very thoughtful note about why Bromin's story means so much
Speaker 1: to you. Why did you do that?
Speaker 16: I guess some empathy for the situation, for the family,
Speaker 16: for all the characters that had been introduced through the
Speaker 16: podcast Bromin's story and we become kind of part of
Speaker 16: it in some way. There's something about becoming involved in
Speaker 16: Bromin's story that really touched me and made me want
Speaker 16: to reach out and perhaps try and offer something. And
Speaker 16: I think that comes from a sense of wanting justice,
Speaker 16: wanting resolution. It almost seems to just be there. We
Speaker 16: could almost touch it. It affected me very much.
Speaker 1: Here's some of what Jackie wrote.
Speaker 16: There's a massive ground swell of support and compassion for
Speaker 16: Brommin now and for those that truly loved her. This
Speaker 16: can only enable a degree of healing for those to
Speaker 16: whom Bromlein mattered and loved. The public are on their side,
Speaker 16: standing with them in the longing for revelation and justice.
Speaker 16: Their voices are finally being heard. They have a podcast
Speaker 16: community listening with very big ears. The podcast impacts people
Speaker 16: like me at the deepest level because we see the injustice.
Speaker 16: It's now a fact that the truth of what really
Speaker 16: happened to Bromwin may actually be revealed. Bromwin is no
Speaker 16: longer forgotten. She's not left in the past anymore. Her
Speaker 16: life and story have stopped being a secret in the dark. Warmly,
Speaker 16: Jackie Spanos, do you.
Speaker 1: Have a particular interest in helping women or understanding domestic violence?
Speaker 1: I'm a counselor what kind of counseling are you involved in?
Speaker 16: Supporting women and couples? Counseling, supporting relationships. We want to
Speaker 16: be preventative of abuse. Because of a podcast, it might
Speaker 16: be helpful in their own circumstances or relationships and they
Speaker 16: might begin to see red flags.
Speaker 1: They can have a very powerful impact. There's no doubt
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 16: It actually helps people who might be living in similar
Speaker 16: type of circumstances.
Speaker 1: I hear from many women who tell me this, do
Speaker 1: you retouching?
Speaker 16: It's just so important because it's not just entertainment. It's
Speaker 16: of immense value righting wrongs in a sense, or it's
Speaker 16: attempting to have value that benefits others. And that's something
Speaker 16: that is so important.
Speaker 17: The repeated podcasts, the public begin to see these repeated
Speaker 17: passions of behavior, and that's educative for people who might
Speaker 17: be in a similar situation as well, because there are
Speaker 17: patterns to these behaviors certain personality types.
Speaker 1: Many listeners, including Jackie, were affected by the revelations about
Speaker 1: Bev Brooker. She died of brain cancer a short time
Speaker 1: after changing her will to the almost sole benefit of
Speaker 1: her neighbor and friend John Winfield. Bev's brothers, other family members,
Speaker 1: and friends have important but unanswered questions about Bev's state
Speaker 1: of mind at the time that she was making big
Speaker 1: decisions about her will. The changes that Bev made ultimately
Speaker 1: enriched John to the tune of several million dollars. John
Speaker 1: replaced Bev's good friend her cousin Kathy Hardy, as the
Speaker 1: almost one hundred percent beneficiary of Bev's estate. I've recently
Speaker 1: caught up again with Bev's brother, Jeff Outerbridge. You heard
Speaker 1: Jeff in previous episodes. Jeff, have you seen John around?
Speaker 11: Yes?
Speaker 7: I have Hedley, Yes, I saw him at the Coles Supermarket.
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 7: Oh, he was getting out of his vehicle and walking
Speaker 7: towards Cole's and I was getting in my vehicle, and
Speaker 7: I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent certain, but I think he
Speaker 1: gave me the finger. What did you say? Why do
Speaker 1: you think he gave you the finger?
Speaker 4: I was either he was waving to me or he
Speaker 4: gave me the finger.
Speaker 1: It's unlikely he was waving to you. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I know you were close enough to identify him.
Speaker 5: Positive it was him.
Speaker 1: He's driving a new vehicle. Well that's probably been funded
Speaker 1: by Bev's estate. So yeah, Jeff and his younger brother
Speaker 1: Paul get a lot of questions and attention from people
Speaker 1: in Ballina, Lennox Head and surrounding areas who now know
Speaker 1: Bev's story.
Speaker 6: People will pull me up in the chemist, in the supermarket,
Speaker 6: at garage styles.
Speaker 1: It leaves a bit of taste in your mouth. Kathy
Speaker 1: Hardy was interested in pursuing legal action. I'll need to
Speaker 1: check in with her how that's going. I just wish
Speaker 1: something could be done about it. Really, Kathy, we last
Speaker 1: spoke some months ago, and at that time you and
Speaker 1: Les were considering your options, including potential legal action involving
Speaker 1: John Winfield. Where did things get to Well?
Speaker 10: I engaged as solicitor who wrote a letter on behalf
Speaker 10: of myself to John Winfield's solicitor requesting interest.
Speaker 1: John had presented himself as Bev's career while she was
Speaker 1: dying from me, so theliomer. He had produced a notebook
Speaker 1: to Jeff Outerbridge to explain to Jeff what was happening
Speaker 1: on certain days. John would have been entitled to Carara
Speaker 1: payments in this role. Kathy's lawyer also requested the handover.
Speaker 10: Of some items that could be useful, such as his
Speaker 10: notebook or diary. Eventually, and it took a long time,
Speaker 10: we got a reply back saying we don't owed you
Speaker 10: any interest and we don't want to comply with providing
Speaker 10: you with anything. So it's sort of come to a
Speaker 10: standstill at that really, and.
Speaker 1: The interest that you were requesting that relates to the
Speaker 1: fact that John held onto Bev's cash for a very
Speaker 1: long time before he notified you that you were a beneficiary.
Speaker 10: That is correct, Yes, it was calculated to be around
Speaker 10: the twelve thousand dollar mark, but he denies that he
Speaker 10: needs to pay me that and that there was any requirement.
Speaker 1: Twelve thousand dollars is a relative pittance compared with what
Speaker 1: you would have received if Beverly's will hadn't changed when
Speaker 1: she was very sick with brain cancer.
Speaker 10: To go to the next level requires a lot more
Speaker 10: money and a lot more stress, and I'm not sure
Speaker 10: that I want to go there.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about having been virtually written out
Speaker 1: of Bev's will at that late stage of her life
Speaker 1: and John receiving almost everything.
Speaker 10: My big thing is the fact that this person's a
Speaker 10: Johnny come lately. She hasn't known him for very long,
Speaker 10: quite mysterious. I don't know how much impact he had
Speaker 10: on her life at the time, and I wish I
Speaker 10: had known more about her thinking at the time, because
Speaker 10: I could have actually talked to her about it.
Speaker 1: Do you believe that John is a beneficiary deserving of
Speaker 1: what he's received.
Speaker 6: I really don't know.
Speaker 10: I don't know enough about the man. I don't know
Speaker 10: enough about their relationship and what they went through. But
Speaker 10: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: You don't need the stress of litigation at the stage
Speaker 1: of your life. I guess that's where you get to, right.
Speaker 10: That's exactly right, and It would be very stressful because
Speaker 10: it means going to mediation first and then going to court.
Speaker 10: It's expensive with no guarantee that you're going to win.
Speaker 10: It's a bit of a gamble, and.
Speaker 1: John would be able to fund his court costs and
Speaker 1: legal costs with Beav's money.
Speaker 10: Correct, it puts a burden on me that I don't
Speaker 10: really want or need.
Speaker 1: Kathy asked about the current status of investigations by the
Speaker 1: police unsolved homicide you unit. The truth is that we
Speaker 1: do not know.
Speaker 10: They're just still looking into it, aren't they.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 10: Police have been a bit in antiquity in that area,
Speaker 10: haven't they.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 10: Unfortunately, Well, at least you'd shone a light there and
Speaker 10: opened up probably conversations for a lot of women.
Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks, Kathy, Good luck with the next one.
Speaker 1: Our visit to the house at Illawong, just before we
Speaker 1: met Andy, Michelle and Maddie at Cronella presented further unanswered questions.
Speaker 1: The owners of the home were not there. Claire picked
Speaker 1: me up again the following day and we drove back
Speaker 1: to Eliwong. It was mid afternoon and this time the
Speaker 1: owners were home. Our conversation must have left them with
Speaker 1: so many questions and of course legitimate concerns. We are
Speaker 1: not identifying the owners or their property. After leaving them,
Speaker 1: we sat in Claire's car.
Speaker 13: That was heavy.
Speaker 1: They had no idea. They haven't heard of Bromman, they
Speaker 1: haven't heard of John, They've not heard from police. They
Speaker 1: are completely oblivious.
Speaker 2: We really thought that they would know, It was likely
Speaker 2: that they would know, But they quickly, I think, revealed
Speaker 2: themselves to be really nice people who were very open
Speaker 2: to hearing what we said. We gave them business cards
Speaker 2: and gave them our numbers and said please call us.
Speaker 2: I hope they do, but I also don't want them
Speaker 2: to feel any pressure.
Speaker 1: We've built a bridge. If they have any questions that
Speaker 1: they want us to answer, then our undertaking is to
Speaker 1: do that. This property that we are sitting outside of
Speaker 1: in your car now clear may not be what we think.
Speaker 2: I really feel for them. It's a horrible situation for
Speaker 2: them to be in. I feel like they were very
Speaker 2: understanding that we didn't create that situation. We didn't put
Speaker 2: them there.
Speaker 1: If she's there, they're intelligent, perceptive, lessening, reasonable people clearly
Speaker 1: busy in their own working lives. Has come as a
Speaker 1: complete shock to them. You don't fake that kind of surprise.
Speaker 1: Who knows how different people could react under those circumstances.
Speaker 1: Some people could become very hostile to two strangers turning
Speaker 1: up with this story that must seem incredibly far fetched
Speaker 1: when you first hear it. But they didn't. They heard it.
Speaker 1: They listened, They asked good questions, and I think they'll
Speaker 1: probably do some of their own research and if they
Speaker 1: have any questions, we can answer those two.
Speaker 2: I'm glad we went, I've got to say, and this
Speaker 2: makes me sad to say it. I think this tells
Speaker 2: us that the unsolved homicide unit of any Southwest police are
Speaker 2: not taking this seriously.
Speaker 5: Why would they have not been.
Speaker 1: Here or are they working in the background and deliberately
Speaker 1: not telling the family because they're going through all of
Speaker 1: the kinds of approval and legal processes that you would
Speaker 1: need to go through to justify coming here with a warrant.
Speaker 2: I could understand that taking a month. I can't understand
Speaker 2: it taking a year. Thinking back to the teacher's peed investigation,
Speaker 2: police moved very quickly on that. When police want to
Speaker 2: move quickly, they can. Maybe they've been hoping we will
Speaker 2: drop it and lose interest, but obviously.
Speaker 1: We have not It's a slab of patio at the
Speaker 1: front of the house. And alternatively, and this is Andy's view,
Speaker 1: more likely a slab of garage concrete. And again that's
Speaker 1: off to the side of the house. We're not talking
Speaker 1: about concrete that is beneath the foundations of their home.
Speaker 2: What would you do now, if you're this.
Speaker 1: Family, I'd want to know.
Speaker 2: I'd rip it up me too. I feel sick for them.
Speaker 2: It's so visceral, isn't it. We talk about murder, and
Speaker 2: we talk about bodies and stuff. Yesterday when we had
Speaker 2: lunch with Andy, he got very emotional thinking about brom
Speaker 2: and body being in the back of John's current. That
Speaker 2: is where this becomes so serious and so macab Really,
Speaker 2: it's horrifying to think of innocent, lovely Bromwin being left
Speaker 2: in a cold, horrible place. Maybe this sounds kind of trite,
Speaker 2: but if she is there, she's a long way from John,
Speaker 2: She's a long way from where it happened. She's been
Speaker 2: left undisturbed, and there's a beautiful family living above her,
Speaker 2: with children laughing and lots of laugh in that home.
Speaker 1: Well, Karina, you and I have been talking a lot
Speaker 1: about why we are suspicious of the Illoong property. And
Speaker 1: what I want to talk to you about now is
Speaker 1: this list that you've compiled, which are all the factors
Speaker 1: that we rely on to say why the Ilowong property
Speaker 1: really needs to be ruled out because of the circumstances
Speaker 1: that make us concerned about it.
Speaker 13: Sure, yeah, happy to go through those, Headley.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to read your first point. On Thursday
Speaker 1: May thirteen, nineteen ninety three, three days before Brohmin's disappearance,
Speaker 1: approval for a concrete paur at the Ilowong property was
Speaker 1: given by Shaia Council Inspectors. Police didn't know this until
Speaker 1: very recently. We've given the internal documents from the Shire
Speaker 1: Council to a detective inspector from the Unsolved Homicide Unit.
Speaker 1: The second point you've raised, your Karina John had been
Speaker 1: working as a bricklayer on the Ilawong site during April
Speaker 1: and May nineteen ninety three, and we do believe he
Speaker 1: knew about the concrete poor approval. He was probably at
Speaker 1: the site when the inspection and approval occurred, and we
Speaker 1: believe he would have known about the timing of the
Speaker 1: upcoming concrete pause.
Speaker 13: Yeah, that's right. Headley, and if we move away from
Speaker 13: Illawong for just a moment and think about the chronology.
Speaker 13: On the evening of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 13: after learning Bronman had moved back into the family home,
Speaker 13: John flew back to lennox Head from Sydney with his belongings,
Speaker 13: including his surfboard, and this suggests he planned to stay
Speaker 13: in lenox Head for a period of time and didn't
Speaker 13: intend to go back almost straight away. Of course, the
Speaker 13: police case is that Bronwin was killed by John that evening,
Speaker 13: something that John emphatically denies.
Speaker 1: We know that John bought petrol and balina at eleven
Speaker 1: h six pm and sometime after that he left for Sydney.
Speaker 13: Yes, there's a verified receipt for this fuel purchase by John.
Speaker 13: There is also the evidence of John's neighbor, Murray Nolan,
Speaker 13: who saw and heard John's Ford Falcon leaving the house
Speaker 13: and rolling down Sandstone Crescent at ten forty pm. Murray
Speaker 13: says the car's engine and lights were off until it
Speaker 13: got to the bottom of the crescent. Then the car started,
Speaker 13: the lights were turned on and it drove away.
Speaker 1: We believe that sadly Bromwin was dead by this time,
Speaker 1: and that her body was in the house, possibly moved
Speaker 1: via the internal stairs and through a lockable internal door
Speaker 1: down to the garage. But John's options were limited because
Speaker 1: the Ford Falcon was almost out of fuel and he
Speaker 1: had to get to the Ampole in Ballino to fill
Speaker 1: up before he could do anything else. So Murray Nolan's
Speaker 1: ten forty pm sighting of the Ford Falcon leaving the
Speaker 1: house does fit neatly with the timing of John's purchase
Speaker 1: of petrol at eleven oh six pm at the ampole
Speaker 1: in Ballana, a fifteen to twenty minute drive from Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 13: Yeah, there's also new evidence that's come out during the
Speaker 13: podcast from Judy scene of John transporting in the backseat
Speaker 13: of the family car something that appeared to Judy to
Speaker 13: look like a body wrapped in sheets. Judy told you
Speaker 13: Hadley that she was sitting on her deck and that
Speaker 13: she had a bird's eye view into the Ford Falcon
Speaker 13: because its interior light was on. Judy also told you
Speaker 13: that it was late. She put this sighting at around
Speaker 13: midnight or a little after midnight, and Judy told me.
Speaker 1: That John looked up and that he possibly saw her
Speaker 1: looking down at him driving slowly past her house in
Speaker 1: Granite Street off Sandstone Crescent, near John and Bromin's house.
Speaker 1: I believe that Judy's eyewitness account is solid.
Speaker 13: Headley, You've also verified from others that Judy was deeply
Speaker 13: troubled by what she saw. She had shared her concerns
Speaker 13: with several people, including her family, a close friend, and
Speaker 13: a New Zealand doctor over those past three decades. She
Speaker 13: had also tried to report it to police several times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Judy Singh is very credible in my view, and
Speaker 1: we believe that Judy's sighting also fits the chronology because
Speaker 1: with the Ford Falcon having been refueled in Barna at
Speaker 1: eleven oh six pm, John would have then driven back
Speaker 1: to the house in Sandstone Crescent. We believe that's when
Speaker 1: he would have put Broman's body in the back seat
Speaker 1: and driven out again, this time along Granite Street, where
Speaker 1: Judy was sitting on her deck when she saw John,
Speaker 1: and she says saw what looked like a body in
Speaker 1: that distinctive Ford face.
Speaker 13: Can we believe that John intended to dispose of Bronwin's
Speaker 13: body somewhere near Lennox had but that because of Judy's sighting,
Speaker 13: John put Bronwin's body in the boot of the car,
Speaker 13: packed up with the two girls and the dog, and
Speaker 13: left very quickly for Sydney.
Speaker 1: If Judy sings right, John would have left some time
Speaker 1: after midnight. This would have been just four to five
Speaker 1: hours after John had arrived back in Lennox Head from Sydney.
Speaker 13: Yes, and importantly, the citing evidence of both Murray, Nolan
Speaker 13: and Judy seing fit with what we suspect is unfolded.
Speaker 1: Well, let's recap on all of it. Zero point one.
Speaker 1: We believe that after Bronwin had died, John drove to
Speaker 1: Baliner to get fuel. That was the ten forty pm
Speaker 1: event which Murray witnessed, and Murray said the car bottomed
Speaker 1: out when it went down the driveway with its lights
Speaker 1: and engine off. But as the inquest heard in two
Speaker 1: thousand and two, that was not as rare or as
Speaker 1: suspense as it perhaps seemed. In fact, it had happened
Speaker 1: before because on other occasions John apparently didn't want to
Speaker 1: disturb he's near neighbors when he would leave early in
Speaker 1: the morning. We do not believe her body was in
Speaker 1: the boot when John went to Barner for his fuel
Speaker 1: fill up, timed at eleven oh six pm. Point two,
Speaker 1: We believe that John has returned from the ampole in
Speaker 1: Barner to his house in Sandstone Crescent, arriving back around
Speaker 1: eleven thirty pm, and Murray would have been asleep by then.
Speaker 13: Point three. We believe John has then moved Bronwin's body
Speaker 13: from the garage to the back seat of the family car.
Speaker 13: But John hadn't closed the back door properly, and in
Speaker 13: that model of car, it meant the interior light stayed.
Speaker 1: Ono point four. We believe that he then drove slowly
Speaker 1: along Granite Street around midnight, and that was the Judy
Speaker 1: seeing sighting. Remember, Judy disclosed to me that John actually
Speaker 1: looked up to where she was sitting on her upstairs deck.
Speaker 1: There was a light on her deck. Judy believed that
Speaker 1: John was quite possibly concerned that she had seen him.
Speaker 13: Zero point five. We believe that John has then hastily
Speaker 13: driven back to the house and moved Bronwin's body from
Speaker 13: the back feet to the car's boots. Then John has
Speaker 13: made a new plan because if.
Speaker 1: He suspected that Judy had seen him, he would have
Speaker 1: been concerned that she might call police. And say I
Speaker 1: think I saw my neighbor driving with what looks like
Speaker 1: a body in his car. We believe that's why John
Speaker 1: needed to leave the house and the area with the
Speaker 1: two girls in a final departure some time before one
Speaker 1: am in what was a very sudden and suspicious getaway.
Speaker 1: Murray's sighting of John at ten point forty pm and
Speaker 1: Judy's sighting of John around midnight actually build and corroborate
Speaker 1: the timeline. In our view.
Speaker 13: We believe John got his two girls and the dog
Speaker 13: in to the car after midnight and then embarked on
Speaker 13: the long drive to Sydney. We believe that the building
Speaker 13: side at Illowong became his new plan B, and that
Speaker 13: he wanted to get to Illowong, just south of Sydney
Speaker 13: sometime on Monday before the concrete pause occurred point six.
Speaker 1: We also believe that his unusual efforts to share with
Speaker 1: people the timing of his receipt for his fuel purchase
Speaker 1: at eleven oh six PM are explained too. It's because
Speaker 1: the receipt supported a claim by John that that was
Speaker 1: the real time John left Barner for the drive to Sydney,
Speaker 1: and of course that receipt would undermine any claim Judy
Speaker 1: sin might make that she saw him with what looked
Speaker 1: like a body around midnight or a little after midnight.
Speaker 1: He would be able to say, that's ridiculous, she's making
Speaker 1: stuff up. Look, I've even got a receipt for a
Speaker 1: fuel purchase at eleven oh six pm. But in our view,
Speaker 1: John in fact left sometime before one am.
Speaker 13: It's exactly what the famed former detective Mick Drury describes
Speaker 13: as a classic example of alibi construction. We believe that
Speaker 13: Judy's version is reliable and that John's drive to Sydney
Speaker 13: began some time between midnight and one am.
Speaker 1: He must have been exhausted, and it begs the question
Speaker 1: why would you drive away so urgently after such a
Speaker 1: long day.
Speaker 13: Already I agree Hadley, and quite frankly the circumstances of
Speaker 13: John's departure for Sydney on Sunday May sixteen, which is
Speaker 13: really bizarre in a number of ways. There was very
Speaker 13: little time between John flying from Sydney to the Ballina
Speaker 13: Airport and then driving from there to Lenox Heads, and
Speaker 13: after this leaving lenox Head to drive to Sydney. He
Speaker 13: left late at night. We think sometime after midnight. He
Speaker 13: was traveling with two young girls who were aged five
Speaker 13: and ten, and Mopsy the dog, and it's quite unusual
Speaker 13: to travelsaneously at this time of night with young children.
Speaker 13: Witnesses have said that the family home was left in
Speaker 13: a complete mess, washing in the washing machine, food on plates,
Speaker 13: the girl's beds were stripped. This was very out of
Speaker 13: character for John. So many people that you've spoken to
Speaker 13: Hadley have mentioned his insistence upon organization and tidiness and cleanliness,
Speaker 13: particularly in the home.
Speaker 1: It's a long drive. It's some eight hundred odd kilometers
Speaker 1: from Lenox Head to Sydney.
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's a huge distance.
Speaker 1: We know that John took hardly any luggage to Sydney,
Speaker 1: just very limited clothing for the girls, and that appeared
Speaker 1: to have been thrown into pillowcases. They ended up staying
Speaker 1: in Sydney for ten days. It was winter again. It
Speaker 1: just underlies this was an abrupt and unplanned departure. In
Speaker 1: our view, if Broman's body went to Sydney in the
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon, she had to be in the boot. The
Speaker 1: car had an LPG tank in its boot. We know
Speaker 1: there would have been room for a body with the
Speaker 1: tank in the boot, but probably not room for suitcases too.
Speaker 13: The other thing we know is that it wasn't school
Speaker 13: holidays in mid May. The girls were supposed to be
Speaker 13: at school the very next morning. It's really unusual to
Speaker 13: take two children at late notice out of school during
Speaker 13: term time without good reason and without letting the school
Speaker 13: know about it.
Speaker 5: First.
Speaker 1: Your list Karna then has John arriving in Sydney on
Speaker 1: the morning of May seventeen, that's a Monday, and after
Speaker 1: visiting the hair salon, he leaves the two girls with
Speaker 1: someone who was a complete stranger to them and to John.
Speaker 1: This person was his ex wife's new mother in law.
Speaker 1: So Jenny Mason, who was John's first wife, has remarried
Speaker 1: and her new husband's mother is at Jenny's home. While
Speaker 1: Jenny's out shopping, John leaves the girls with this woman,
Speaker 1: Joan Mason. Lauren and Crystal were in their pajamas. John
Speaker 1: went to this stranger instead of Roman's brother and sister
Speaker 1: in law. Andy and Michelle read they were in the
Speaker 1: same suburb, and since they learned about this years after
Speaker 1: the event, they found it absolutely extraordinary that John would
Speaker 1: have left the girls with a stranger in those circumstances.
Speaker 1: If John had taken the girls to a relative that
Speaker 1: would have undoubtedly raised questions about Rombin's whereabouts and the
Speaker 1: reasons for John's hasty travel to Sydney. There may have
Speaker 1: even been a risk that relatives would have wanted to
Speaker 1: go to the car boot, perhaps to help with luggage
Speaker 1: that they would have thought would have been there.
Speaker 13: Like Andy and Michelle Hadley, I've just found this event
Speaker 13: in particular really extraordinary. And in his only formal interview
Speaker 13: with police, John was asked about his movements on May seventeen.
Speaker 13: He didn't tell police about leaving the girls at his
Speaker 13: ex wife's house with a stranger. This could be a
Speaker 13: deliberate decision by John not to disclose information to avoid
Speaker 13: arousing the suspicion of police about his actions and his
Speaker 13: whereabouts on that Monday. Another thing that John didn't tell
Speaker 13: police was how he spent a number of hours on
Speaker 13: the Monday from about the late morning to the early afternoon.
Speaker 13: John's movements between him dropping the girls at the ex
Speaker 13: wife's house and him registering the car at three oh
Speaker 13: seven pm and then going to Andy and Michelle's around
Speaker 13: four PM are still a mystery. John had the time
Speaker 13: and the opportunity to go to the building site at
Speaker 13: ill Along in this time and dispose of Bronwin's body
Speaker 13: or other evidence such as her handbag.
Speaker 1: He wasn't expected in Sydney by anyone on Monday, not
Speaker 1: his daughter Jody, not Andy and Michelle, not his ex wife,
Speaker 1: and not the builder Glenn Webster. He didn't have any
Speaker 1: accommodation or childcare arranged, even though he was traveling with
Speaker 1: two young children and a dog. Just such a weird
Speaker 1: series of movements for someone who likes to always be
Speaker 1: in control and have a plan.
Speaker 13: It just seems very out of character to act so spontaneously.
Speaker 1: John's explanations for the reasons for this travel to Sydney
Speaker 1: they're just not consistent and they are all over the shop.
Speaker 1: One thing police didn't know is something a confidential source
Speaker 1: has told me, and that is that John told this
Speaker 1: person on the afternoon of Monday May seventeen that he
Speaker 1: had to be back in Sydney for an upcoming concrete
Speaker 1: poor in the Southern Shire. That source said John did
Speaker 1: appear agitated and he appeared to regret having disclosed that
Speaker 1: there was going to be a concrete poor. Now, the
Speaker 1: builder Glenn Webster, who employed John has said John wasn't
Speaker 1: needed for the concrete poor.
Speaker 13: We also know that John went back to work at
Speaker 13: the Illawong building site during this ten days stay in Sydney,
Speaker 13: but he did not disclose this to police. He did
Speaker 13: not tell police he had returned to Sydney for urgent
Speaker 13: work or a big job, which are the reasons he
Speaker 13: gave to others for the trip.
Speaker 1: And he was asked about what he was doing in Sydney.
Speaker 1: He had an opportunity to say I was working. I
Speaker 1: was doing some bricklaying at Illawong, a building site. You
Speaker 1: can talk to Glenn Webster. That doesn't fall from his lips.
Speaker 4: No, that's right.
Speaker 13: He was very squarely asked what he was doing in
Speaker 13: Sydney and what he was doing on Monday, May seventeen,
Speaker 13: nineteen ninety three, and John only gave a really vague
Speaker 13: explanation to police about what he and the girls had
Speaker 13: done during their time in Sydney. He told police, probably
Speaker 13: just hang about, just sort of sight seeing and everything.
Speaker 16: You know.
Speaker 13: The evidence is actually that the girls and the dogs
Speaker 13: stayed with Andy and Michelle and John stayed elsewhere but
Speaker 13: visited most days. We believe John deliberately withheld the information
Speaker 13: about him working at the Illawong building site from police
Speaker 13: to distance himself from that site, and also from concrete
Speaker 13: pause that we believe might have occurred on the Tuesday
Speaker 13: or Wednesday of that week.
Speaker 1: When you go to Illawong, Now, it's hard to imagine
Speaker 1: what it would have looked like on Monday, May seventeen,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. I mean, that was thirty two years ago.
Speaker 1: Now it's very established. But back then, the building site
Speaker 1: on which John was working was a vacant block of
Speaker 1: land in a mostly vacant housing estate. It was isolated.
Speaker 1: The vast majority of the properties, including all of those
Speaker 1: in the actual street, were not under construction, so there
Speaker 1: weren't people around. The bricklayer turning up on a Monday
Speaker 1: in his vehicle is not going to arouse suspicion. John
Speaker 1: usually worked alone at the site, with the builder, Glenn Webster,
Speaker 1: acting from time to time as his laborer. If John
Speaker 1: wasn't there, Glenn wasn't there. Glenn's told us that, and
Speaker 1: we don't believe Glenn was at the site that Monday
Speaker 1: because he thought John was still Atlantic's head.
Speaker 13: The other thing we know is that one of Crystal's
Speaker 13: friends has said that Crystal told her that Cristel and
Speaker 13: Lauren were not allowed by John to look in the
Speaker 13: boot of the on the morning of May seventeen. If
Speaker 13: this is true, it begs the question of what the
Speaker 13: girls were not meant to see.
Speaker 1: It's a lengthy list, Carena, there's more than twenty points,
Speaker 1: and I reckon we've missed a few. How important With
Speaker 1: your experience of running coeronnial investigations in the past, do
Speaker 1: you believe that Illawongs site potentially.
Speaker 6: Could be Headley.
Speaker 13: I think there's a real prospect that Bromwin's remains or
Speaker 13: other evidence, possibly her handbag, might be concealed at Illowong.
Speaker 13: When you pull all of these factors together that we've
Speaker 13: just been discussing, it's just such a compelling list of factors.
Speaker 13: I really feel that the Illawong site should be searched
Speaker 13: out of fairness to Bronwin and her family and to
Speaker 13: try and give them some answers. I've been thinking a
Speaker 13: lot this week about the ambiguous loss that they're living
Speaker 13: with not knowing where Bronwin is or what happened to her.
Speaker 13: Searching Illowong would at least answer that question for them.
Speaker 1: It almost goes without saying that it's very difficult to
Speaker 1: hand dig a grave, a grave that will not be
Speaker 1: disturbed by animals, say along the Pacific Highway or somewhere
Speaker 1: in Lennox Head, when it's dark, it's cold, you've got
Speaker 1: children either sleeping at home or in the car. However,
Speaker 1: at a building site where the ground has been prepared
Speaker 1: for a concrete pore, where there is phil that is
Speaker 1: readily moved to put the remains of someone or other
Speaker 1: evidence into it is a relatively straightforward, but macarb task.
Speaker 13: I agree, a much easier option, and there seems much
Speaker 13: less chance of the body ever being found.
Speaker 1: I'm even suspicious carena of the fact that when John
Speaker 1: turned up at Andy and Michelle's house in the afternoon
Speaker 1: for thirty PM, the boot lining, which back then was vinyl,
Speaker 1: was not visible. There was no vinyl lining in the
Speaker 1: boot of that vehicle. That's what Andy noted. Would that
Speaker 1: vinyl lining have been a useful wrap for a body
Speaker 1: already concealed perhaps in.
Speaker 13: Sheets it could have been, or perhaps it needed to
Speaker 13: be removed from the car because it might have had
Speaker 13: forensic evidence on it. From transporting the body.
Speaker 1: In a telecom television commercial in the year that Romwin disappeared,
Speaker 1: Australian country music singer John Williamson told Australians that they
Speaker 1: had one of the best phone services you could get.
Speaker 8: Now we set to take our country into the next
Speaker 8: century and now shut the world outside this.
Speaker 1: But could that phone service capture local call data at
Speaker 1: that time? For months, we have been trying to confirm
Speaker 1: once and for all whether police could have retrospectively obtained
Speaker 1: local telephone call data from Telstra for any local calls
Speaker 1: made from Sandstone Crescent on the evening of May sixteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and Carina Berger has been doing a
Speaker 1: lot of work on this. The local call data is
Speaker 1: critically important in this case, and that's because John Winfield
Speaker 1: alleges Bromwin made some telephone calls shortly before she was
Speaker 1: purportedly picked up by an unknown person. Strong inference is
Speaker 1: that Bromwyn telephone the person who John says picked bromwn up.
Speaker 1: It follows then that if no telephone call was made,
Speaker 1: then John has been lying and nobody picked bromwn up
Speaker 1: and only the provision of local telephone call data would
Speaker 1: be able to verify this. But was that data available
Speaker 1: we have received contradictory information about that point. Back then,
Speaker 1: Telstra was known as Telecom. We know that police asked
Speaker 1: the telecommunications provider for some details about long distance calls
Speaker 1: and other non local calls made around the time Bromwyn disappeared.
Speaker 1: You have heard a bit about that in earlier episodes.
Speaker 1: We know that at the inquest into Bromin's disappearance, evidence
Speaker 1: was given that a Telstra employee had said that local
Speaker 1: call details would not have been available in ninety ninety three.
Speaker 1: We asked Telstra to confirm whether that position was correct.
Speaker 1: After some delay, we were told by a Telstra spokeswoman.
Speaker 18: This was not available for local calls respectively in nineteen
Speaker 18: ninety three and only became widely available in nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 18: In nineteen ninety three, there was a process in place
Speaker 18: to manually activate tracing for select reasons, one charge check
Speaker 18: where someone was disputing their charges, and two malicious call
Speaker 18: trace for police matters. Both of these needed to be
Speaker 18: proactively switched on prior to the call.
Speaker 1: In episode thirty four, the former detective Michael Drury spoke
Speaker 1: about podcasts having an investigational team of ten thousand or more.
Speaker 1: We've received a lot of information from listeners, all of
Speaker 1: whom have shown their goodwill and keenness to help by
Speaker 1: giving us some personal and often sensitive details from their
Speaker 1: own lives that led to their dealings with local call data.
Speaker 1: Listeners experiences with local call data vary greatly, but the
Speaker 1: timing of the events and the locations of the exchanges
Speaker 1: are critical. We've been told by some listeners, including other
Speaker 1: Telstra workers, that local call data was available in the
Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties. One former employee said.
Speaker 19: I started working for Telecom in January nineteen ninety two
Speaker 19: as a customer service officer in a call center in Townsville.
Speaker 19: At that time, local call data could be obtained, even
Speaker 19: though it was not printed on customers bills.
Speaker 1: Another listener recalled her mother obtaining local call record from
Speaker 1: Telstra in nineteen ninety three for an address in western Sydney.
Speaker 1: But we haven't heard from anyone who has specific and
Speaker 1: particular knowledge about local call data and it's ability from
Speaker 1: the lenox Head area in nineteen ninety three. Lenox Head
Speaker 1: is a regional area, and that probably meant that local
Speaker 1: called data was not available in nineteen ninety three, even
Speaker 1: though it may have been available elsewhere in metropolitan areas,
Speaker 1: technological advancements were rolled out across the cities before they
Speaker 1: got to the regions. Former Telstra employee Odette Nettleton has
Speaker 1: described her work experience for Telstra in regional New South Wales,
Speaker 1: and her recollection is that telephone exchange equipment in metropolitan
Speaker 1: areas was upgraded much earlier than the equipment in regional areas.
Speaker 1: Odette says that in Gosford at this time that's mid
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, there were no records of which numbers.
Speaker 4: Were dialed slowly each exchange was upgraded. These upgrades took
Speaker 4: place from late nineteen ninety seven and into nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 1: From my memory, Odette checked with some other former Telecom
Speaker 1: and Telstra workers and their feedback was that the lenox
Speaker 1: Head telephone exchange may not have been upgraded until around
Speaker 1: August nineteen ninety seven. It seems to us that it's
Speaker 1: more likely than not that local call telephone data in
Speaker 1: lenox Head was not available to police in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 20: Really nice person soft personality, softly spoken, very pretty girl.
Speaker 20: You'd always look at her and go, oh, she's just
Speaker 20: so nice.
Speaker 1: In this the last episode in the Bromwin series. For
Speaker 1: the time being and until there are new developments, it
Speaker 1: does seem fitting to talk about the woman at the
Speaker 1: heart of all of this.
Speaker 20: My mum even put her in the Mister Luru contest
Speaker 20: down in Cronulla when she was younger.
Speaker 1: Fiona Houstoner grew up a stone's throw from where Bromwin
Speaker 1: and Andy lived as teenagers with their father, Philip, his
Speaker 1: second wife, and their daughter Melissa in the Shire. There
Speaker 1: are friendships forged four decades ago. Their ties were strong
Speaker 1: and meaningful back in the day. Fiona regularly drops into
Speaker 1: her own family home where Bromwyn would babysit her and
Speaker 1: her brother Sean.
Speaker 20: Mom and dad still live there, Andrew's mom still lives
Speaker 20: two doors down.
Speaker 1: Andy's stepmother, the woman he still calls mom, stayed there
Speaker 1: after Philip's death. Their house in Krela in the Shire
Speaker 1: has scarcely changed since the mid nineteen seventies when teenage
Speaker 1: Bromwin and little brother Andy were there.
Speaker 20: We used to go to their house all the time.
Speaker 1: Fiona tells me she was a little in awe of
Speaker 1: the older very pretty.
Speaker 20: Bromwin, always looking up to her, and we used to
Speaker 20: go over and see her after she had Crystal.
Speaker 1: Why did you ask me to look at Broman's case
Speaker 1: six years ago?
Speaker 20: God, someone was missing and we've never heard anything about it,
Speaker 20: and it's someone you know. No one knew what had happened.
Speaker 20: It sort of just got swept under the carpet for
Speaker 20: a long time. Only Andrew was fighting for it. It
Speaker 20: seems much clearer now. It's just not swept under the
Speaker 20: carpet anymore.
Speaker 1: My friend Matt Condon is a remarkable writer. He thinks
Speaker 1: deeply about people, about his own work and the writing
Speaker 1: of others. Broman left behind some of her writing, and
Speaker 1: you heard little snippets of this in very early episodes.
Speaker 1: Matt has studied Bromman's written words and then he wrote
Speaker 1: something deeply moving about this mother of two's summary of
Speaker 1: her life. We published it in the pages of The
Speaker 1: Australian right back near the start of this series. At
Speaker 1: that time I asked Matt to narrate it for audio
Speaker 1: to be used in a future episode. Now is the
Speaker 1: right time to hear Matt's and Broman's words and our
Speaker 1: videoographer friend Bianca's voice.
Speaker 21: It was one of the few artifacts she left behind
Speaker 21: after disappearing from her family home at Sandstone Crescent, Lennox Head.
Speaker 21: On May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, Bronwin joy Winfield, thirty
Speaker 21: one supposedly abandoned two daughters, clothes, jewelry, a femur, and
Speaker 21: a fragment of autobiography. In the vacuum of her absence
Speaker 21: was a nine page handwritten testimony on simple A four sheets.
Speaker 21: Perhaps not a testimony, but this is my life style
Speaker 21: of declaration. It begins with sometimes tortured remembrances of childhood moments.
Speaker 22: Andrew always wedding bed, my recurring nightmare of the man
Speaker 22: coming to my room often snuck into Andrew's bed and
Speaker 22: on the end of it. When to Perth with stepmother,
Speaker 22: went to King's Park and Rottnest Island, went to Canns
Speaker 22: and met Sonia and Billy McMahon while staying there. When
Speaker 22: to Fiji with family, a wonderful place and stayed Castaway Island,
Speaker 22: very primitive but picturesque god stranded in a lagoon was
Speaker 22: rescued by man and underwear, only to discover the water
Speaker 22: was only waist deep.
Speaker 21: Bronwin races through fractured teenage years, becomes mired in her
Speaker 21: contemporaneous marriage to John Winfield, and then leaps into the
Speaker 21: future with an unconvincing declaration of hope. The physical handwriting
Speaker 21: is tight knit, unfurling in long, unbroken paragraphs. It is
Speaker 21: riddled with exclamation marks, The lower case eyes are topped
Speaker 21: with small circles as a child might punctuate. Mistakes are
Speaker 21: heavily scratched out with biro, and the text is flecked
Speaker 21: with spelling and grammatical errors. But all that aside, the
Speaker 21: biggest and most curious question is this, why does this
Speaker 21: little personal manuscript in Bronman's hand even exist? Did she
Speaker 21: write it over a period of time? If so, when
Speaker 21: and where? When she was living virtually hand to mouth
Speaker 21: in that small flat down in Byron Street after her
Speaker 21: marriage to John Winfield had collapsed and she'd left him.
Speaker 21: Or was she sitting at the kitchen table in Sandstone Crescent,
Speaker 21: in that suburban estate on the ridge above the Coast
Speaker 21: Road and the sliver of Boulder Beach when she moved
Speaker 21: back into the house while John was working in Sydney
Speaker 21: the marriage over, but she not willing to cut free
Speaker 21: without assets she was legally entitled to. Did she write
Speaker 21: it on the fire all weekend of her life before
Speaker 21: she disappeared. It's an opportunity to reflect a tableau, to
Speaker 21: unleash pent up emotions. You sense reading it that it
Speaker 21: was a difficult task for her, this excavating of her
Speaker 21: own life and times. She writes in sometimes abbreviated halting snatches,
Speaker 21: as if under pressure to produce the document.
Speaker 22: Started school four years nine months mount Owsley Primary. Moved
Speaker 22: to Sydney age seven. We had Auntie Phillis looking after
Speaker 22: Melissa and Andrew and I before and after school. She
Speaker 22: used to bring us hot doughnuts in the mornings. Caught
Speaker 22: recurrent ear infections and had chronic stomach upset after doctor's examination.
Speaker 22: Moved after fire in Roseland's just escaped before place was
Speaker 22: almost destroyed. Moved to Murray Place, Sylvania. Traumatic time, to
Speaker 22: say the least.
Speaker 21: The story she commits to paper is no fairy tale.
Speaker 21: Hers is a fractured childhood. She is shunted between different
Speaker 21: schools and carers, endures a short stint in boarding school
Speaker 21: and wonders if she just left or was thrown out.
Speaker 21: There is animosity between her and her stepmother, she couldn't
Speaker 21: stand me and short stays with her nana. During this chaos.
Speaker 21: She writes of meeting her real mother, Barbara, who had
Speaker 21: fled husband Philip and the kids Bronwin and Andy with
Speaker 21: postnatal depression, only to turn up in Tasmania years later.
Speaker 21: She records the continued animosity with her stepmother. She recounts
Speaker 21: her first kiss.
Speaker 22: Year ten dance Robert Austen. Wasn't supposed to go, but pleaded,
Speaker 22: but didn't have anything to wear but Daggie Fletcher Jones
Speaker 22: g and DJ shirt just one in Denham Jean's like the.
Speaker 21: Others and a nickname given to her.
Speaker 22: Nickname Twiggy, Tall and Slim. Left school year ten, wanted
Speaker 22: to leave home, hated it.
Speaker 21: There is a creeping sense in the manuscript that Bronwan's
Speaker 21: life was touched from childhood with bad luck. She walks
Speaker 21: out on her first job at the Bank of New
Speaker 21: South Wales.
Speaker 22: Was harassed by accountant when a bank manager who just laughed,
Speaker 22: couldn't stand the accountant, couldn't get transfer, walked out one afternoon,
Speaker 22: never went back.
Speaker 21: And is picked up by the police for smoking pot.
Speaker 21: Her rendition of how her first child was conceived was
Speaker 21: hardly lifted from a romance novel.
Speaker 22: Meanwhile, I fell pregnant to Mark Davis because I was
Speaker 22: drinking at my birthday party after an argument with Mark Guthrie,
Speaker 22: who wanted to marry me.
Speaker 21: She gives birth to Crystal and lives on her own
Speaker 21: until she is briefly married to a crook.
Speaker 22: Then moved to Nana Reed's unit for a while, then
Speaker 22: the place was sold.
Speaker 21: And is staying with friends. When she meets Jonathan got.
Speaker 22: To know John. We talked and I felt I had
Speaker 22: made a friend.
Speaker 21: John has a daughter, Jody, to a previous relationship. By
Speaker 21: page five of the diary, things move quickly. Bronwan starts
Speaker 21: living with John in a flat behind a milk bar
Speaker 21: in South Cronulla. Then the grievances immediately kick in.
Speaker 22: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.
Speaker 22: The house that was Bill became John's castle and my prison.
Speaker 21: On some pages there is random children scrawling, perhaps in
Speaker 21: the hand of Lauren, then a toddler. It's a heartbreaking document,
Speaker 21: a small record of a short and relatively uneventful life.
Speaker 21: Despite the glory of her children.
Speaker 22: I was surrounded by hate and abuse in various ways
Speaker 22: as a child, and am determined not to allow this
Speaker 22: to happen to my girls or myself ever again. No
Speaker 22: one will ever intimidate me again, nor will I allow
Speaker 22: anyone to force their opinions onto me, as this can
Speaker 22: cause damage to myself as well as my children.
Speaker 21: Here I am, it says, near the end, exposed. This
Speaker 21: is me warts and all. My marriage has fallen apart,
Speaker 21: and this is how I'm feeling about my life.
Speaker 22: Eventually I switched off and became cold inside. He had
Speaker 22: a heart of ice and always criticized me no matter
Speaker 22: what I did. The man was cold and heartless and
Speaker 22: gave nothing but expected everything.
Speaker 21: So why did she do it? Was she asked to
Speaker 21: commit to paper a summary of herself and her life?
Speaker 21: Was this the raw material for a future court battle
Speaker 21: with estranged husband John over custody of their children and
Speaker 21: the division of assets? Or was she setting down her
Speaker 21: history in the shadow of uncertainty about her future, wanting
Speaker 21: to leave a record behind for her children. Then she
Speaker 21: disappeared without a trace. Now those nine pages, for so
Speaker 21: many different reasons, have become remarkable and priceless.
Speaker 1: Before we go, please listen again to one of Broman's
Speaker 1: best friends in Lennox Head, a special woman called Denise Barnard.
Speaker 1: I interviewed her for the first time on February fourteen,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, at the home her husband Les built
Speaker 1: for them. You first heard Denise's voice in episode two.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about Bromin's case becoming part of
Speaker 1: this podcast investigation?
Speaker 19: Fantastic.
Speaker 1: You're not worried about bringing up painful memories and difficult
Speaker 1: situations that I.
Speaker 23: Think we need to We need to do it. It's been
Speaker 23: too long. Anybody that had anything to impart any more
Speaker 23: information to try and get this resolved one way or
Speaker 23: the other wouldn't be interested in.
Speaker 1: Talking to you.
Speaker 23: I still recollect when she told me that he had
Speaker 23: had her by the throat up against the wall and
Speaker 23: that she was frightened. I think she was committed to
Speaker 23: leaving him and taking the girls and starting a new
Speaker 23: life for herself. They were her wife, and knowing that
Speaker 23: Chrystal wasn't John's, she wouldn't have gone anywhere without them.
Speaker 23: She just wouldn't have done it. Whatever happened on that
Speaker 23: Sunday night, that was the last of Bromin. Next tonight,
Speaker 23: those girls lost their mum.
Speaker 1: Denise cared deeply about Bromin. She hoped that there would
Speaker 1: be justice.
Speaker 23: And do you know Broman's third person of my friends
Speaker 23: that's gone missing without a trace, you would have heard
Speaker 23: of Debbie Walkin and George Jamison. Yeah, that was to
Speaker 23: all my friends in Sydney that disappear, never a trace
Speaker 23: of them ever, both nurses and rumored i'd heard either
Speaker 23: la they were eighteen.
Speaker 6: Whatever happened to them?
Speaker 23: How do people just disappear and you will never see
Speaker 23: them again.
Speaker 1: The day before this episode thirty six, I went back
Speaker 1: and listened to my recordings with Denise to some of
Speaker 1: the things that she said which were not published in
Speaker 1: the podcast. Denise had refused to talk to John Winfield
Speaker 1: for a long time.
Speaker 23: I hope it'd be a bit frightened that something might be.
Speaker 1: Uncovered when I met her. The Bromwin podcast investigation was
Speaker 1: three months away from the release of its first episode.
Speaker 1: Throughout its life, Denise has hoped that it would make
Speaker 1: a difference.
Speaker 23: Let's see if we can do something and get something
Speaker 23: happening with this good a great outcome.
Speaker 1: Denise and her husband Lez were in touch with deb
Speaker 1: Hall and Murray Nolan, familiar friends in a relatively small
Speaker 1: community touched by the unresolved disappearance of a much love
Speaker 1: woman in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: Looking forward to catching up with them.
Speaker 6: Are they coming out for a glass having that wine?
Speaker 23: Yeah, we're going to Yeah, that's good after you talk
Speaker 23: to Headley.
Speaker 5: Yeah together.
Speaker 1: I promised to leave you a few times now.
Speaker 6: To get home to your family.
Speaker 15: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It was lovely to meet you.
Speaker 23: Good to chat to you again, mister numbers for you.
Speaker 1: Denise was true to her word. She called other people
Speaker 1: who knew Bromwin. She asked them to talk to me
Speaker 1: and they did.
Speaker 23: Safe journey home, Good luck with it.
Speaker 1: You've been grave. We end now with a special thanks
Speaker 1: to everyone who has helped get this far. You have
Speaker 1: all been remarkable and a heartfelt thank you to Denise Barnard,
Speaker 1: Bromlin's dear friend. Sadly, Denise died two days before this
Speaker 1: episode was released. Our deepest sympathies are extended to Denise's husband,
Speaker 1: Les and their family. Bronwm is written and investigated by
Speaker 1: me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian.
Speaker 1: If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case,
Speaker 1: please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian
Speaker 1: dot com dot Au. You can read more about this
Speaker 1: case and see a range of photographs and other artwork
Speaker 1: at the website Bromwyn Podcast dot com. Our subscribers and
Speaker 1: registered users here episodes first. The production and editorial team
Speaker 1: for bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget,
Speaker 1: Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen,
Speaker 1: Matthew Condon, Karina Verger and David Murray, with assistance from
Speaker 1: Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series is by
Speaker 1: Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We
Speaker 1: have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwyn Winfield.
Speaker 1: We can only do this kind of journalism with the
Speaker 1: support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.
Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and
Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver, go to the Australian dot com
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe