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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Broman contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian.

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Speaker 2: You and I have both done a lot of knocking

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Speaker 2: on doors Headley, and it's one of the hardest things

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Speaker 2: in journalism. It's to go and knock on a door,

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Speaker 2: cold and introduce yourself and just hope that you can

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Speaker 2: get people talking to you. Often it's in very tragic

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Speaker 2: circumstances where someone has died.

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Speaker 1: My friend and colleague Claire Harvey, driving our south to

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Speaker 1: a suburb called Illawong, in an area we've been calling

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Speaker 1: the Shire throughout this Bromwin podcast series.

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Speaker 3: It's beautiful morning in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: It's just stopped raining and there's a very cloudy, windswept

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Speaker 2: sky and the streets are drying out.

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Speaker 1: We are heading to the house John Winfield helped build

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Speaker 1: in May nineteen ninety three. It must be worth at

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Speaker 1: least three million dollars. We have decided to approach the

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Speaker 1: owners for the first time, to rip off the band

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Speaker 1: aid and tell them about our suspicions and the suspicions

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Speaker 1: of senior lawyers and former detectives that this attractive two

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Speaker 1: level property may be Bromlin's resting place.

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Speaker 2: Well, often people are really happy to tell their stories.

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Speaker 2: They want to honor the person who's passed away.

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Speaker 1: I agree. Sometimes it is cathartic. They like to honor

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Speaker 1: their loved one. But in this case, we're not talking

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Speaker 1: to a grieving relation. We're hoping to talk to the

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Speaker 1: owners of a property who may have no idea of

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Speaker 1: our growing suspicion about possibly Bromwin's remains being buried. Beneath

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Speaker 1: a patio or a garage slab is the one location

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Speaker 1: that takes a lot of boxes that makes most sense.

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Speaker 4: It is possible.

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Speaker 2: I suppose that their lives are busy and that they

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Speaker 2: haven't heard about it. If they had heard about it

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Speaker 2: and they've been waiting for us to get in touch,

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Speaker 2: I feel for them. I feel that there must have

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Speaker 2: been a difficult situation to be in. If they haven't,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be.

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Speaker 5: A big surprise. At the very least.

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Speaker 2: This is a house that John Winfield was working on

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Speaker 2: in the days before and after the disappearance of his wife.

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Speaker 4: I'd want to know that too.

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Speaker 2: If I was the owner of the house, if I

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Speaker 2: had heard that this was happening at my house and

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Speaker 2: the police didn't want to dig it up.

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Speaker 5: I'd be digging it up myself.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be out of bear the uncertainty.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely on the idea that you might unwittingly be concealing

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Speaker 2: the body of a murder victim.

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Speaker 1: That was the turn off to Illowong. If they are home,

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Speaker 1: I've got no idea whether they're going to talk to us.

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Speaker 1: In an earlier episode, you heard Karina Berger and I

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Speaker 1: debating whether to make this approach. Claire Harvey was in

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Speaker 1: no doubt that we needed to at least try to

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Speaker 1: talk to the owners, but not to ask them for anything.

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Speaker 1: We have resolved that even if we had their permission,

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Speaker 1: we would not attempt an excavation and search. While there's

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Speaker 1: still a prospect of that occurring under the supervision of

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Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit or the

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Speaker 1: State Coroner, Theresa O'Sullivan. We do not know what, if anything,

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Speaker 1: they are doing in relation to this place. But before

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Speaker 1: driving to Ilawong, we decided that the owners of the

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Speaker 1: home do deserve a briefing from us, even though it's

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Speaker 1: possible that they have been oblivious to everything that has

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Speaker 1: been speculated and reported in the podcast these past twelve months.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, they might be across every detail.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we need to tell them that as

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Speaker 1: gently as possible.

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Speaker 2: I can't decide whether I'm hoping that they know about

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Speaker 2: the podcast and that they've been waiting for us to come,

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Speaker 2: or that they have no idea at all.

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Speaker 1: It's a lovely area.

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Speaker 2: Classic Australian suburbia around here, isn't it your for lawns,

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Speaker 2: nice gardens?

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Speaker 1: Thirty two years ago this area in Illawong was not

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Speaker 1: well established. There were not many homes now here.

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Speaker 3: We are in the street, this one here.

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Speaker 1: With the the property.

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Speaker 4: Hello.

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Speaker 1: Back in the car. Sometime later we debriefed abjectively, we

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Speaker 1: looked quite unusual. Speak for yourself.

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Speaker 2: We look like either.

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Speaker 3: Cops or bit collectors.

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Speaker 2: I'd kind of imagined a veranda or a porch that

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Speaker 2: was basically just concrete. I hadn't expected something that's quite

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Speaker 2: so established, like it's tiled.

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Speaker 3: It's very nice.

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Speaker 1: Claire stared the family wagon back onto the main road

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Speaker 1: out of Illawong and in the direction of the beach

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Speaker 1: and Crinulla, where we have another important commitment. One final group.

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Speaker 1: Meeting with the three most staunch people I've come to

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Speaker 1: know in this podcast investigation.

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Speaker 3: Maddie and Andy and Michelle.

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Speaker 4: Just going to get it.

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Speaker 1: Approve, they'll be fine. I actually let Andy know this morning. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I said, this is what we're going to do. We've

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Speaker 1: waited up, gone back and forth about it, but at

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Speaker 1: the end, our job is to ask questions, and we

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Speaker 1: try to do that with as much thoughtfulness as possible.

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Speaker 1: But if we stop asking questions, stop knocking on doors,

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Speaker 1: where do you draw the line? Yeah, you'll hear more

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Speaker 1: about our visit to the house in Ilawan later in

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Speaker 1: this episode.

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Speaker 6: We came here for our last anniversion.

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Speaker 1: Our meeting place, a restaurant near the beach, is well

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Speaker 1: known to Andy and Michelle.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's two you guys being married for thirty five years.

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Speaker 3: Podcast nearly over, isn't it. Yeah, it's nearly over.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen months earlier, I spoke to Bromin's brother Andy and

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Speaker 1: his wife Michelle on the phone about the probable scale

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Speaker 1: and duration of the planned Bromin podcast investigation. Here's a

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Speaker 1: snippet from that time, when we were just days away

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Speaker 1: from the release of episode one called John's Castle. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about a series of maybe eight, nine or ten episodes,

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Speaker 1: so it's not going to be over quickly. Andy and

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Speaker 1: Michelle were told back then about what we hope the

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Speaker 1: impact of the early episodes would have on listeners, particularly

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Speaker 1: those with information about bromin her disappearance and John. When

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Speaker 1: they start listening and appreciating what's being done and hearing

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Speaker 1: the different accounts and seeing the momentum, that's when people

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Speaker 1: who have been silent, who haven't wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: the cops or to journalists before, just start feeling naturally

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Speaker 1: pretty guilty, feeling like they should have come forward and

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Speaker 1: said something now. At lunch and on the eve of

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Speaker 1: episode thirty six, in a series which I never expected

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Speaker 1: would cover this much ground and hear from so many

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Speaker 1: people with information, Michelle pondered questions about this production coming

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Speaker 1: to an end at least for now.

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Speaker 7: You hope that the podcast might still generate someone else's interest,

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Speaker 7: or it might push someone who's sitting back and wanting

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Speaker 7: to say something but too frightened too for some reason.

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Speaker 3: Which you know we know there are people like that.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any regrets about being involved? None at all.

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Speaker 3: It's been great.

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Speaker 2: There have obviously been some pretty harrowing times with your

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Speaker 2: family like this has been hard.

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Speaker 3: You guys are right at the center of it.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about the family's feelings.

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Speaker 6: It's been hard to spring up and down right. A

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Speaker 6: lot of more through the whole thing. Some people struggling

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Speaker 6: with wanting a bit more relevant.

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Speaker 2: Back when we started, you obviously had a relationship with

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Speaker 2: your sister Kim in Tasmania and with your cousin Megan.

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Speaker 2: Do you speak to them now?

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Speaker 6: Not currently.

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 8: The messages and the scathingness of them that I received

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Speaker 8: from Megan, they're just not so unacceptable.

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Speaker 6: I couldn't matter how much you hate someone.

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Speaker 8: There's no need to say the things that she comes

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Speaker 8: up with.

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Speaker 6: I'm after answers for Braun. I'm after justice for Braun,

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Speaker 6: nothing else, nothing else.

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Speaker 4: It's quite complicated.

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Speaker 9: They were already problems before it even happened, because not

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Speaker 9: everyone is going to remember things the same way, and

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Speaker 9: not everyone is going to want to remember things the

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Speaker 9: same way.

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Speaker 4: It just got put under the spotlight.

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Speaker 1: Megan takes the view that the police investigation early on

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Speaker 1: failed because you and Michelle tried to control with and

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Speaker 1: not allow other members of the family to be involved.

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Speaker 8: In the early piece in relation to Meagan just can

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Speaker 8: ring me one day. He just said to me, every

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Speaker 8: time must be to this blot. He has an answer

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Speaker 8: prepared because he knows what the family's doing.

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Speaker 6: Well.

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Speaker 8: That's when I've said to Diskin, do not accept any

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Speaker 8: phone calls, do speak with Megan anymore, because somehow John's

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Speaker 8: finding out everything that the family knows and thinks.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that it's your exclusion of Megan and

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Speaker 1: her knowledge that you excluded her that has caused a

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Speaker 1: lot of the acrimony.

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Speaker 8: When she admits in her statement that she was in

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Speaker 8: constant contract with him.

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Speaker 2: Let's that doesn't go any further any Let's just say

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Speaker 2: nothing happens now, there are no charges laid. The police

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Speaker 2: come back to you in a month and say, look, sorry,

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Speaker 2: we haven't done anything.

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Speaker 3: There's nowhere to go. How would you feel if that happened.

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Speaker 6: No, I'd be mortified, devastated Obra.

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Speaker 8: Eightwo months ago, they sat there and said, at the moment,

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Speaker 8: unless there's any further evidence coming forwards, there's nothing more

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Speaker 8: we can do for you.

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Speaker 10: Now.

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Speaker 8: The podcast has run its course. As far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 8: it'splaying the ship out of the water come up with

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Speaker 8: that many relevant facts. Everyone that knows me locally around

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Speaker 8: here and that that follows the podcast just says, how

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Speaker 8: can they d prepre and the please get it that

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Speaker 8: far wrong would be quite devastating if it doesn't proceed.

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Speaker 2: I remember once another of a we said child said

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Speaker 2: to me, your greatest VINCEL Thomas sine unit opened the

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Speaker 2: lid on the boss one for years, said oh, there's

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Speaker 2: nothing new, and then shut the room within.

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Speaker 6: Well, that's what it felt like until the podcast started.

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Speaker 8: We'd basically given up because I used to just make

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Speaker 8: that constant annual phone call.

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Speaker 6: And god ring here after year, any news, what's going on?

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Speaker 8: All they do is check whether bank account's being touched

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Speaker 8: and come back to you and go, no, yeah, mad car,

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Speaker 8: your card hasn't been touched. Bank account has and boon

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Speaker 8: touched year after year, until finally that.

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Speaker 6: Blagrit moved on and I was never ever given another contract.

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Speaker 8: Unelful, very unellful. Just prove how in NEPP the system

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Speaker 8: can be.

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Speaker 1: Visitors to the new South Wales Police headquarters in Paramatta

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Speaker 1: see a public display a tribute to many hundreds of

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Speaker 1: people who are missing. Their disappearance is unresolved an unknown

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Speaker 1: number of murder victims. It is particularly poignant now in

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Speaker 1: this first week of August twenty twenty five, Australia's National

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Speaker 1: Missing Person's Week. The catalyst for this annual week of

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Speaker 1: action was the disappearance of twenty year old Tony Jones

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty two. This year's campaign theme is Forever Loved,

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Speaker 1: which is also very fitting for Bromin Winfield and her family.

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Speaker 7: And you just think to yourself, there are so many

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Speaker 7: people who missing and you watch them go on the screens.

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Speaker 7: If you've got a missing person in your family, you've

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Speaker 7: got to get on there and push. You can't sit back.

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Speaker 7: You've got to be proactive. You've got to be a

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Speaker 7: thorn in their side really and just keep going, don't

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Speaker 7: give up.

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Speaker 1: We know that the police don't really approve of journalists

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Speaker 1: doing cold case investigations of unsolved on in this case though,

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Speaker 1: they should not be disapproving because they had told you

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Speaker 1: there was nowhere else they could go. They couldn't take

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Speaker 1: it any further unless there's fresh evidence.

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Speaker 8: The fresh evidence has all come from the podcast and

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Speaker 8: all the work that's been done by to shelf.

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Speaker 6: Everything we've been able to find out.

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Speaker 7: How sad is it that Judy Singh went to two

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Speaker 7: police stations and was not taken seriously. That just blows

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Speaker 7: me away what they think she was a crazy person

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Speaker 7: or something.

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Speaker 3: She's also a filler of the community and n that's

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Speaker 3: just incredible to me.

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Speaker 7: That was a pivotal point in the whole podcast, wasn't it.

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Speaker 8: I said it to you Leon the night that we

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Speaker 8: spoke on the phone for a couple of hours after

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Speaker 8: the Judy scene episode, and I said.

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Speaker 7: The.

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Speaker 3: Mum they adored, did you think when this started? Oh

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Speaker 3: my god, this is gon worry the family out.

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Speaker 4: There's no winning.

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Speaker 9: Everyone's lost something, everyone's losing something.

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Speaker 4: And yes, there are so many feelings involved in.

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Speaker 9: This, but there's really one objective.

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Speaker 7: That's the only objective, and it has been the only

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Speaker 7: objective from the day that we found out she was gone.

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Speaker 3: Andrew is Roman's brother.

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Speaker 7: His status isn't here anymore, his Mum's not here anymore.

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Speaker 7: Andrew has always felt that he could never give up

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Speaker 7: on his sister.

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Speaker 5: Always.

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Speaker 7: We've had so many ups and downs, Andrew even in

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Speaker 7: himself with his own health over all.

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Speaker 3: Of this, purely with his frustration.

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Speaker 7: Of not having the case moving forward. I've lived it

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Speaker 7: with him the whole time. His only objective is to

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Speaker 7: find out the truth, that's all. If it were the

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Speaker 7: case that something happened to when other than what the

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Speaker 7: facts point.

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Speaker 3: To, that would be acceptable.

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Speaker 7: And the pursuit of the truth has pointed us down

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Speaker 7: this path to this one person from the day he

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Speaker 7: walked on to.

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Speaker 5: Our front Verandah, I don't want to talk in front

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Speaker 5: of the kids.

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Speaker 7: The kids were inside, and nothing about Ronwin has ever

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Speaker 7: been spoken about to the kids, never allowed to be questioned.

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Speaker 7: We're never allowed to bring up Romman's name in front

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Speaker 7: of the kids, like it was crazy. And your mum's

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Speaker 7: done this, your mum's run away, your mum's mentally ill.

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Speaker 4: That whole thing was pushed.

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Speaker 3: Down their throats.

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Speaker 7: I think they're just frightened to know the truth. And

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Speaker 7: I guess that's understandable too, if that's how this.

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Speaker 3: All ends up.

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Speaker 7: Because she was five, she's only going to believe what

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Speaker 7: she's fed. And that's a big thing for anybody. When

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Speaker 7: you've been told the one thing the whole time and

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Speaker 7: it's not true. What else is a five year old

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Speaker 7: going to believe when they don't know anything better, and

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Speaker 7: they're not allowed to talk to their family of their mother.

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Speaker 7: Who would be able to reinforce the fact that no.

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Speaker 3: Your mum wouldn't have gone away. Your mum loved you.

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Speaker 7: We never ever were able to do that, And that's

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Speaker 7: so sad.

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Speaker 1: And when you talking before about the possibility of roum,

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Speaker 1: when her body being in the boot and those children

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Speaker 1: on the back seat, and you were obviously upset, I

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Speaker 1: understand why how much weight do you give that theory?

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Speaker 1: Given everything you've now heard.

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Speaker 6: It looks more probable than not. It's a master search.

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Speaker 6: That's where she could be. So she's there.

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Speaker 8: I think she's going to be in the back corner

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Speaker 8: of the garage or along that side.

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Speaker 6: Walk which is the laundry backing onto the garage.

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Speaker 4: Would you want to know this is your property?

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Speaker 7: Look that for us, and someone said to us, we

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Speaker 7: believe that there might be or somebody.

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Speaker 3: Buried on your property. I would want that affirmed. I

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Speaker 3: would want that done.

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Speaker 7: As horrible as it sounds, I would want them to

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Speaker 7: go ahead and do whatever they needed to do. The

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Speaker 7: chance has to be taken. You can't go on going

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Speaker 7: is she isn't she?

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Speaker 3: There needs to be an answer.

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Speaker 7: The podcast has been able to extract more information than

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Speaker 7: we've ever known before, and vital information. If all of

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Speaker 7: that information now doesn't do the deed, we're going to

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Speaker 7: be struggling, aren't we.

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Speaker 3: How many more chances are we going to have?

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Speaker 8: It wasn't until you've build into it to the depths

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Speaker 8: that we have through the podcast that all these different

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Speaker 8: facts and new facts came out. It didn't got the

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Speaker 8: information about when the sign off was for the slabs

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Speaker 8: and the whole thing started just falling into place.

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Speaker 4: Ultimately, the police should have picked that up.

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Speaker 7: The fact that the place was trime for something like

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Speaker 7: that to happen, and we know that now.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know that.

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Speaker 8: I don't think Glenn's suspected it either, But then when

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Speaker 8: you sat there and you put those few facts to imy,

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Speaker 8: when Wow.

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Speaker 7: I don't think there's very many other places she could

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Speaker 7: possibly be and not have been found, not have washed up,

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Speaker 7: not have been uncovered.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm strongly of the view.

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Speaker 7: I don't really think there's any other alternative.

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Speaker 1: Everybody was suspicious of the circumstances of the trip to Sydney,

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Speaker 1: and everybody was suspicious of the dropping off of the

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Speaker 1: children with the ex wife's mother in law and concerned

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Speaker 1: about what the lies that John told about his movements

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Speaker 1: might have meant.

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Speaker 6: Why was he distancing himself from certain things?

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't until those documents became available because of

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Speaker 1: your connection to a long serving council staff who founded

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Speaker 1: in archives.

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Speaker 4: Well, working with what we have and we've done as

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Speaker 4: much as we can, I'm.

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Speaker 6: Stronger in the view now with everything you know.

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Speaker 4: Digging and graves actually very difficult.

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Speaker 9: He was Russian and he would not have arrived in

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Speaker 9: Sydney as early as he did if he went into.

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Speaker 4: The middle of the woods or off the highway.

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Speaker 1: And Doug sadly, mate, I think that if Roman isn't

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Speaker 1: there Atilawung, he'll probably never find.

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Speaker 11: Right after agree yeah.

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Speaker 1: The following morning, Maddie joined me in the nine Network

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Speaker 1: studio in Sydney for a live TV interview, perhaps the

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Speaker 1: last one will do together about this case. Maddie will

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Speaker 1: be joining the new South Wales Police Force in coming months.

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Speaker 1: They're lucky to have this intelligent forensic science graduate. She's strong,

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Speaker 1: independent and wise beyond her years, and she's been a

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Speaker 1: great help to me and this podcast investigation.

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Speaker 12: It's been thirty two years see bronwyin Winfield's disappearance from

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Speaker 12: her home in Lennox Head, with police yet to locate

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Speaker 12: her remains.

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Speaker 1: The Today Shows co anchor Sarah Arbo went straight to

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Speaker 1: the point.

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Speaker 12: After all this time, are we any closer to finding

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Speaker 12: out what happens?

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Speaker 1: We believe that we are, and that the evidence that's

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Speaker 1: come out through multiple witnesses who hadn't talked to the

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Speaker 1: police before or who hadn't been taken seriously before, as

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Speaker 1: well as some powerfully compelling circumstantial evidence pointing to where

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Speaker 1: Bromlin's remains may have been concealed, show that there is

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Speaker 1: a lot there that can be developed further by police

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Speaker 1: and possibly by people with specialized search and excavation equipment.

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Speaker 12: That's incredible, and I do want to come to that,

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Speaker 12: and I know you two have been working closely with

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Speaker 12: these past eight ten months on this podcast. What's it

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Speaker 12: been like from the family's perspective to have all this

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Speaker 12: brought back up.

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Speaker 9: In a way it has restored a lot of hope

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Speaker 9: for us. I mean, we went thirty one years with

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Speaker 9: nothing happening, and it was a constant thing that Andy

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Speaker 9: Bronwin's brother had brought up with the police to try

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Speaker 9: and get them to look back into it and put

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Speaker 9: it out to the public and the media that something

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Speaker 9: actually eventually started happening and people started coming out of

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Speaker 9: the woodwork, and we now know so much more than

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Speaker 9: we did before.

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Speaker 12: And you mentioned the potential site where Bronwin's remains may be.

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Speaker 12: You've identified a concrete slab. Do you think that's likely

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Speaker 12: to ever be excavated?

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Speaker 1: I believe that senior police serving and former regarded as

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Speaker 1: a priority site that needs to be looked at, if

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Speaker 1: only to be ruled out if there is going to

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Speaker 1: be any further action taken in so far as a

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Speaker 1: possible prosecution, which was recommended by the coroner back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two, then they wouldn't want to go

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Speaker 1: forward with that not knowing what might be beneath that slab.

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Speaker 1: And it's just the timing around the concrete pause that

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Speaker 1: were occurring there when John was working there as a

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Speaker 1: brick layer, these other factors, his omissions about what he

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Speaker 1: was doing that day, they're quite troubling when you put

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Speaker 1: it all together. And that's why Glenn Taylor said if

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Speaker 1: he had known this information back then, he would have

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Speaker 1: got a search order there himself. They all point to

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Speaker 1: something very troubling and then something concerning happening in the

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Speaker 1: Shy in relation to the possible disposal of a body,

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Speaker 1: but he's always denied wrongdoing.

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Speaker 12: It's incredible, isn't it. A podcast like this can con

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Speaker 12: cover and the people who come forward as well with

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Speaker 12: what they remember.

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Speaker 1: Even at this very late stage of the investigation, we

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Speaker 1: are still finding out important information.

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Speaker 5: I was the owner of Intercutz and I employed Jody

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Speaker 5: Winfield as apprentice, so she started with me when she

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Speaker 5: was maybe sixteen. I actually solved the salon and so

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Speaker 5: she was probably there till she was twenty two. An

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Speaker 5: amazing hairdresser and just lovely, gentle, beautiful girl. Actually we

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Speaker 5: had been out socially a couple of times. Was Bromwyn

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Speaker 5: and John.

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Speaker 1: We know that John says he turned up at the

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Speaker 1: salon in the Shire on the morning of Monday, May seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and he spoke to his daughter Jodi,

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Speaker 1: who was working there. She has said in evidence that

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Speaker 1: she was excited and happy to see her father and

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Speaker 1: the two young girls. They had driven through the night

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Speaker 1: from Lennox Head to Sydney, you'll also recall a purported

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Speaker 1: telephone call made by bromwn Winfield the next day to

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Speaker 1: the salon. Andy Reid and police have long suspected that

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Speaker 1: Bromwin had been murdered on the evening of Sunday. Somebody

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Speaker 1: falsely pretending to be Bromwin must have made that call.

429
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Speaker 1: Earlier in this podcast investigation, I sat with Maddie Walsh

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Speaker 1: and Andy Reid in his car outside the Intercut's hair salon.

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Speaker 1: Andy recalled having been told by John about this purported

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Speaker 1: call in May nineteen ninety three, and Andy went directly

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Speaker 1: to the salon. Back then he waited to talk to

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Speaker 1: a woman whom he believed was Tanya Robertson, one of

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Speaker 1: the hairdressers.

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Speaker 8: I watched and waited for the last client to walk

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Speaker 8: out of that shop, and then I walked over there,

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Speaker 8: knocked on the door, introduced myself, told Tanya Robinson who

439
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Speaker 8: I was, and asked her about the phone call. I

440
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Speaker 8: spoke to her and I said, John and Jad have

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Speaker 8: told me that there was a phone call to the salon.

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Speaker 6: And she says to me, yes, that's correct.

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Speaker 8: There was a phone call around lunch time, just after lunch,

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Speaker 8: and it was a free male voice.

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Speaker 6: I can't and tell you whether it was wronging, but

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Speaker 6: it was.

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Speaker 8: It's a female voice sighing and stating that I'm in

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Speaker 8: Conchland and tell Jody I'm not coming back.

449
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: The identity of the caller has never been confirmed. In

450
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety eight statement to police, Tania Robertson did

451
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: not remember ever receiving a phone call from a woman

452
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: purporting to be Bromwin on that day.

453
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: We know that.

454
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: Bromwin did telephone the salon from time to time to

455
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: try to talk to Jody there, and Michelle O Flanagan

456
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: told my colleague Karina Berger that these calls were very troubling.

457
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: We were surprised at what Michelle disclosed next.

458
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 13: Can you remember anything about Bronwyn and John's circumstances at

459
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 13: that time.

460
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 5: I can remember there was a couple of phone calls

461
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 5: which were quite upsetting for Jody's I think brom would

462
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 5: have rung maybe a couple of times, and then they'd

463
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 5: had a conversation and Jody had got a little bit

464
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 5: upset regarding the phone calls. And I do kind of

465
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 5: remember on one occasion there was a phone call and

466
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 5: I just said to her, look Bronwin, you can't be

467
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 5: ringing Jody. This is her workplace, she's at work. She

468
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 5: kind of went off a little bit and can't remember

469
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 5: the exact words she said, but it was something along

470
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 5: the lines he's trying to kill me or something. She

471
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 5: was obviously quite scared. I felt that come across.

472
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 13: Just to clarify the timing, these calls were happening in

473
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 13: the lead up to Bronwin's disappearance, not after her disappearance.

474
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 5: No, No, it was definitely before the disappearance. From what

475
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 5: I can remember, she was obviously petrified, sounds scared. Well,

476
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 5: you can't be ringing here, like it's really got nothing

477
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 5: to do with Jody, and she was at work. We

478
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 5: were trying to work, and it was quite upsetting for Jody.

479
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 5: That's when I'd said, look, you've just got to stop

480
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 5: calling here. You can't be calling here, calling Jody. If

481
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 5: it's that bad, called the police. I don't think I

482
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 5: actually said that, but I just said, stop calling here,

483
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 5: You've just got to stop. It was frustrating because we're

484
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 5: trying to run a business.

485
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 13: Can you remember any trigger for the call when Bronwyn

486
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 13: told you that John was trying to kill her? Can

487
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 13: you remember why she was particularly fearful on that occasion.

488
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 5: I think that was actually maybe when I just hung

489
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 5: up on her and told her to stop calling because

490
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 5: it had nothing to do with us, really, and don't

491
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 5: ring the workout was because we're kind of getting a

492
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 5: little bit sick of the calls and work interruptions.

493
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 13: Did you ever get any appreciation of what Bronwin was

494
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 13: actually hoping to achieve through the phone calls?

495
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 5: Well, I suppose she was probably trying to get Jody

496
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 5: to talk to a father. Jody had a lot of

497
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 5: respect for him.

498
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: Michelle o flanagan believes that she told police about her

499
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: discussion with Bromwyn, the one in which Bronwyn had said

500
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: words like he's trying to kill me. I spoke to

501
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 1: Michelle o flanagan too while I was sitting with Andy

502
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: and his wife, Michelle Reid in the Shire shortly before

503
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: this episode was released, and the former owner of Intercuts

504
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: told me that she clearly remembered Broman expressing her fear

505
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: of John and of being concerned that he would kill her.

506
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: I asked her if she put this in her statement,

507
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: which was briefly mentioned at the inquest. Michelle said yes,

508
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: that she would have done this, but we do not

509
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: have access to that statement, and there is no mention

510
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: in the transcript from the two thousand and two inquest

511
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: of Michelle possibly being able to give evidence about Bromin

512
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: telling her sometime in the weeks before her disappearance words

513
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: to the effect that John was trying to kill her.

514
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: Michelle was not called to give evidence at the inquest.

515
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: Michelle o flanigan's statement was not generated in the usual

516
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: way by the then detective Sergeant Glen Tae. He got

517
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: most of the statements that were relied upon in nineteen

518
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: ninety eight and nineteen ninety nine. The police prosecutor who

519
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: was assisting the Deputy State coroner in the inquest in

520
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, Matt Fordham, told the inquest that

521
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: Michelle's statement was quote supplied through my friend end quote,

522
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,479
Speaker 1: and this means the statement was obtained through John Winfield's lawyer,

523
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett. Michelle o' flanagan has been upfront with Corena

524
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: and me. She said that she remains in telephone contact

525
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: with Jody from time to time and she has valued

526
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: their friendly connection over the years. She hasn't seen John

527
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: for quite some time. She was apprehensive about talking on

528
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: the record with careenring me. However, she resolved that it

529
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. She did recall being

530
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: contacted to make her statement, but she doesn't have a

531
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: copy herself.

532
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 5: I can remember when it was interviewed here on the

533
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 5: Sunshine Coast. They asked questions about the phone call and

534
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 5: where Jodi lived in a couple of other things. I

535
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 5: just remember saying to them, lot my brain was like

536
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 5: meshed potato and peas because I just had a baby,

537
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 5: and it's so long ago. Obviously my brain was a

538
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 5: bit fried around that time, so it's all a little

539
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 5: bit of a blur. The phone calls I do remember,

540
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 5: because obviously they interrupted the workflow, and the fact that

541
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 5: she was quite upset because obviously she thought he was

542
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 5: trying to kill her.

543
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: Jodi Winfield also mentioned Bromwin telephoning the salon in her

544
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: police statement, but Jodi Winfield did not say anything in

545
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: her statement or in her oral evidence at the inquest

546
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: about Bromwin expressing fears in her calls to the salon

547
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: about John purportedly wanting to kill her.

548
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 14: I'm also aware that she telephoned my boss, Michelle O'Flanagan

549
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 14: at the hair salon and she wanted to speak to me.

550
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 14: Michelle told her that she could not speak to me

551
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 14: during work hours and to telephone me at home. Michelle

552
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 14: was aware of the problems between Dad and Bronwyn, and

553
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 14: when she told her this, Bronwin apparently abused her over

554
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 14: the phone, and Michelle hung up on her because she

555
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 14: was ranting and raving.

556
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: Karina asked Michelle o flanagan about some of the other

557
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: alleged events at the salon.

558
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 13: If we moved to about that time of Bronwin's disappearance,

559
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 13: so she was last seen on the Sunday evening, the

560
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 13: sixteenth of May, and then on the Monday the following day.

561
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 13: Would you have any recollection of John visiting the salon

562
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 13: at all and speaking to Jody?

563
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 5: Not really, I would be taking a bit of a

564
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 5: stab in the dark. Maybe he did, I couldn't be sure.

565
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 13: The reason I ask is that Jody's recollection is that

566
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 13: her dad arrived unexpectedly out of the blue at the

567
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 13: hairdressing salon on the Monday morning and had her too

568
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 13: siblings with him in the car.

569
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 5: Oh, actually, yes, I think he did too. Yeah, Candy

570
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 5: girls in the back of the car. Yeah, carrying about

571
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 5: for you.

572
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does.

573
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: Many hair salons are closed on Mondays. Michelle said that

574
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: she was confident in her recollection that intercuts traded from

575
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: Monday through to Saturday.

576
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 5: We were definitely open up. We always opened on a Monday.

577
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: Karina asked Michelle about the alleged phone call, the one

578
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: in which a woman purporting to be Bromin called the

579
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: salon on Tuesday, May eighteen, nineteen ninety three, but Michelle

580
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: did not have a clear memory of the circumstances surrounding

581
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: that one. During the inquest, John's lawyer, Craig Leggett read

582
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: onto the record some of Michelle o'flannagan's statement about the call.

583
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 15: Michelle flanagan says, on Tuesday eighteen May ninety ninety three,

584
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 15: I was on my roster day off. Tanya Robertson, an

585
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 15: employee at the salon, was working that day. On my

586
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 15: days off, i'd go into the salon and check how

587
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 15: things were going each day and take the takings for

588
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 15: the day. I went into the salon this day at

589
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 15: about four pm. I recall that on this day Tanya

590
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 15: told me that bronin Winfield had called and had left

591
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 15: a message for Jody that she was leaving the kids

592
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 15: and going away, and that Jody would have to help

593
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 15: her father to look after the children.

594
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: Jackie, you're one of many listeners who have been on

595
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: this journey with the podcast, and you sent me a

596
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: very thoughtful note about why Bromin's story means so much

597
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: to you. Why did you do that?

598
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 16: I guess some empathy for the situation, for the family,

599
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 16: for all the characters that had been introduced through the

600
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 16: podcast Bromin's story and we become kind of part of

601
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 16: it in some way. There's something about becoming involved in

602
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 16: Bromin's story that really touched me and made me want

603
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 16: to reach out and perhaps try and offer something. And

604
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 16: I think that comes from a sense of wanting justice,

605
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 16: wanting resolution. It almost seems to just be there. We

606
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 16: could almost touch it. It affected me very much.

607
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: Here's some of what Jackie wrote.

608
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 16: There's a massive ground swell of support and compassion for

609
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 16: Brommin now and for those that truly loved her. This

610
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 16: can only enable a degree of healing for those to

611
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 16: whom Bromlein mattered and loved. The public are on their side,

612
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 16: standing with them in the longing for revelation and justice.

613
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 16: Their voices are finally being heard. They have a podcast

614
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 16: community listening with very big ears. The podcast impacts people

615
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 16: like me at the deepest level because we see the injustice.

616
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 16: It's now a fact that the truth of what really

617
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 16: happened to Bromwin may actually be revealed. Bromwin is no

618
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 16: longer forgotten. She's not left in the past anymore. Her

619
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 16: life and story have stopped being a secret in the dark. Warmly,

620
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 16: Jackie Spanos, do you.

621
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: Have a particular interest in helping women or understanding domestic violence?

622
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: I'm a counselor what kind of counseling are you involved in?

623
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 16: Supporting women and couples? Counseling, supporting relationships. We want to

624
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 16: be preventative of abuse. Because of a podcast, it might

625
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 16: be helpful in their own circumstances or relationships and they

626
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 16: might begin to see red flags.

627
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: They can have a very powerful impact. There's no doubt

628
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: about it.

629
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 16: It actually helps people who might be living in similar

630
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 16: type of circumstances.

631
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: I hear from many women who tell me this, do

632
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: you retouching?

633
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 16: It's just so important because it's not just entertainment. It's

634
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 16: of immense value righting wrongs in a sense, or it's

635
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 16: attempting to have value that benefits others. And that's something

636
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 16: that is so important.

637
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 17: The repeated podcasts, the public begin to see these repeated

638
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 17: passions of behavior, and that's educative for people who might

639
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 17: be in a similar situation as well, because there are

640
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 17: patterns to these behaviors certain personality types.

641
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: Many listeners, including Jackie, were affected by the revelations about

642
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: Bev Brooker. She died of brain cancer a short time

643
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: after changing her will to the almost sole benefit of

644
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: her neighbor and friend John Winfield. Bev's brothers, other family members,

645
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: and friends have important but unanswered questions about Bev's state

646
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: of mind at the time that she was making big

647
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: decisions about her will. The changes that Bev made ultimately

648
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: enriched John to the tune of several million dollars. John

649
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: replaced Bev's good friend her cousin Kathy Hardy, as the

650
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: almost one hundred percent beneficiary of Bev's estate. I've recently

651
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: caught up again with Bev's brother, Jeff Outerbridge. You heard

652
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: Jeff in previous episodes. Jeff, have you seen John around?

653
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 11: Yes?

654
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 7: I have Hedley, Yes, I saw him at the Coles Supermarket.

655
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: What happened?

656
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 7: Oh, he was getting out of his vehicle and walking

657
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 7: towards Cole's and I was getting in my vehicle, and

658
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:43,919
Speaker 7: I'm pretty sure.

659
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent certain, but I think he

660
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: gave me the finger. What did you say? Why do

661
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: you think he gave you the finger?

662
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 4: I was either he was waving to me or he

663
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 4: gave me the finger.

664
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: It's unlikely he was waving to you. Yeah, I know,

665
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: I know you were close enough to identify him.

666
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 5: Positive it was him.

667
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: He's driving a new vehicle. Well that's probably been funded

668
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: by Bev's estate. So yeah, Jeff and his younger brother

669
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: Paul get a lot of questions and attention from people

670
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: in Ballina, Lennox Head and surrounding areas who now know

671
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 1: Bev's story.

672
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 6: People will pull me up in the chemist, in the supermarket,

673
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 6: at garage styles.

674
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: It leaves a bit of taste in your mouth. Kathy

675
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: Hardy was interested in pursuing legal action. I'll need to

676
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: check in with her how that's going. I just wish

677
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: something could be done about it. Really, Kathy, we last

678
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: spoke some months ago, and at that time you and

679
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: Les were considering your options, including potential legal action involving

680
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: John Winfield. Where did things get to Well?

681
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 10: I engaged as solicitor who wrote a letter on behalf

682
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 10: of myself to John Winfield's solicitor requesting interest.

683
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: John had presented himself as Bev's career while she was

684
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: dying from me, so theliomer. He had produced a notebook

685
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: to Jeff Outerbridge to explain to Jeff what was happening

686
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: on certain days. John would have been entitled to Carara

687
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: payments in this role. Kathy's lawyer also requested the handover.

688
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 10: Of some items that could be useful, such as his

689
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 10: notebook or diary. Eventually, and it took a long time,

690
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 10: we got a reply back saying we don't owed you

691
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 10: any interest and we don't want to comply with providing

692
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 10: you with anything. So it's sort of come to a

693
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 10: standstill at that really, and.

694
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: The interest that you were requesting that relates to the

695
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: fact that John held onto Bev's cash for a very

696
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: long time before he notified you that you were a beneficiary.

697
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 10: That is correct, Yes, it was calculated to be around

698
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 10: the twelve thousand dollar mark, but he denies that he

699
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 10: needs to pay me that and that there was any requirement.

700
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: Twelve thousand dollars is a relative pittance compared with what

701
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 1: you would have received if Beverly's will hadn't changed when

702
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: she was very sick with brain cancer.

703
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 10: To go to the next level requires a lot more

704
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 10: money and a lot more stress, and I'm not sure

705
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 10: that I want to go there.

706
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: How do you feel about having been virtually written out

707
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: of Bev's will at that late stage of her life

708
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: and John receiving almost everything.

709
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 10: My big thing is the fact that this person's a

710
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 10: Johnny come lately. She hasn't known him for very long,

711
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 10: quite mysterious. I don't know how much impact he had

712
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 10: on her life at the time, and I wish I

713
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 10: had known more about her thinking at the time, because

714
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 10: I could have actually talked to her about it.

715
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: Do you believe that John is a beneficiary deserving of

716
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: what he's received.

717
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 6: I really don't know.

718
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 10: I don't know enough about the man. I don't know

719
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 10: enough about their relationship and what they went through. But

720
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 10: I don't think so.

721
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 1: You don't need the stress of litigation at the stage

722
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: of your life. I guess that's where you get to, right.

723
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 10: That's exactly right, and It would be very stressful because

724
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 10: it means going to mediation first and then going to court.

725
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 10: It's expensive with no guarantee that you're going to win.

726
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 10: It's a bit of a gamble, and.

727
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: John would be able to fund his court costs and

728
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: legal costs with Beav's money.

729
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 10: Correct, it puts a burden on me that I don't

730
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 10: really want or need.

731
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: Kathy asked about the current status of investigations by the

732
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: police unsolved homicide you unit. The truth is that we

733
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: do not know.

734
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 10: They're just still looking into it, aren't they.

735
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 1: Yes.

736
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 10: Police have been a bit in antiquity in that area,

737
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 10: haven't they.

738
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: Yes.

739
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 10: Unfortunately, Well, at least you'd shone a light there and

740
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 10: opened up probably conversations for a lot of women.

741
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, thanks, Kathy, Good luck with the next one.

742
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: Our visit to the house at Illawong, just before we

743
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: met Andy, Michelle and Maddie at Cronella presented further unanswered questions.

744
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: The owners of the home were not there. Claire picked

745
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: me up again the following day and we drove back

746
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: to Eliwong. It was mid afternoon and this time the

747
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: owners were home. Our conversation must have left them with

748
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 1: so many questions and of course legitimate concerns. We are

749
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: not identifying the owners or their property. After leaving them,

750
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: we sat in Claire's car.

751
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 13: That was heavy.

752
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: They had no idea. They haven't heard of Bromman, they

753
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: haven't heard of John, They've not heard from police. They

754
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: are completely oblivious.

755
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: We really thought that they would know, It was likely

756
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: that they would know, But they quickly, I think, revealed

757
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 2: themselves to be really nice people who were very open

758
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: to hearing what we said. We gave them business cards

759
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 2: and gave them our numbers and said please call us.

760
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: I hope they do, but I also don't want them

761
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: to feel any pressure.

762
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: We've built a bridge. If they have any questions that

763
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: they want us to answer, then our undertaking is to

764
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: do that. This property that we are sitting outside of

765
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: in your car now clear may not be what we think.

766
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: I really feel for them. It's a horrible situation for

767
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: them to be in. I feel like they were very

768
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: understanding that we didn't create that situation. We didn't put

769
00:44:58,760 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: them there.

770
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: If she's there, they're intelligent, perceptive, lessening, reasonable people clearly

771
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: busy in their own working lives. Has come as a

772
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: complete shock to them. You don't fake that kind of surprise.

773
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: Who knows how different people could react under those circumstances.

774
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: Some people could become very hostile to two strangers turning

775
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: up with this story that must seem incredibly far fetched

776
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: when you first hear it. But they didn't. They heard it.

777
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: They listened, They asked good questions, and I think they'll

778
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: probably do some of their own research and if they

779
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: have any questions, we can answer those two.

780
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: I'm glad we went, I've got to say, and this

781
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: makes me sad to say it. I think this tells

782
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 2: us that the unsolved homicide unit of any Southwest police are

783
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: not taking this seriously.

784
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 5: Why would they have not been.

785
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: Here or are they working in the background and deliberately

786
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: not telling the family because they're going through all of

787
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: the kinds of approval and legal processes that you would

788
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 1: need to go through to justify coming here with a warrant.

789
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: I could understand that taking a month. I can't understand

790
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: it taking a year. Thinking back to the teacher's peed investigation,

791
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: police moved very quickly on that. When police want to

792
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: move quickly, they can. Maybe they've been hoping we will

793
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: drop it and lose interest, but obviously.

794
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: We have not It's a slab of patio at the

795
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: front of the house. And alternatively, and this is Andy's view,

796
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: more likely a slab of garage concrete. And again that's

797
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: off to the side of the house. We're not talking

798
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: about concrete that is beneath the foundations of their home.

799
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: What would you do now, if you're this.

800
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: Family, I'd want to know.

801
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: I'd rip it up me too. I feel sick for them.

802
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: It's so visceral, isn't it. We talk about murder, and

803
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 2: we talk about bodies and stuff. Yesterday when we had

804
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 2: lunch with Andy, he got very emotional thinking about brom

805
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 2: and body being in the back of John's current. That

806
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: is where this becomes so serious and so macab Really,

807
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 2: it's horrifying to think of innocent, lovely Bromwin being left

808
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: in a cold, horrible place. Maybe this sounds kind of trite,

809
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: but if she is there, she's a long way from John,

810
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: She's a long way from where it happened. She's been

811
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 2: left undisturbed, and there's a beautiful family living above her,

812
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: with children laughing and lots of laugh in that home.

813
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 1: Well, Karina, you and I have been talking a lot

814
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 1: about why we are suspicious of the Illoong property. And

815
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: what I want to talk to you about now is

816
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: this list that you've compiled, which are all the factors

817
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: that we rely on to say why the Ilowong property

818
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: really needs to be ruled out because of the circumstances

819
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: that make us concerned about it.

820
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 13: Sure, yeah, happy to go through those, Headley.

821
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: I'm just going to read your first point. On Thursday

822
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: May thirteen, nineteen ninety three, three days before Brohmin's disappearance,

823
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: approval for a concrete paur at the Ilowong property was

824
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: given by Shaia Council Inspectors. Police didn't know this until

825
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: very recently. We've given the internal documents from the Shire

826
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: Council to a detective inspector from the Unsolved Homicide Unit.

827
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: The second point you've raised, your Karina John had been

828
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: working as a bricklayer on the Ilawong site during April

829
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: and May nineteen ninety three, and we do believe he

830
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: knew about the concrete poor approval. He was probably at

831
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: the site when the inspection and approval occurred, and we

832
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: believe he would have known about the timing of the

833
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: upcoming concrete pause.

834
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 13: Yeah, that's right. Headley, and if we move away from

835
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 13: Illawong for just a moment and think about the chronology.

836
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 13: On the evening of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three,

837
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 13: after learning Bronman had moved back into the family home,

838
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 13: John flew back to lennox Head from Sydney with his belongings,

839
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 13: including his surfboard, and this suggests he planned to stay

840
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 13: in lenox Head for a period of time and didn't

841
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 13: intend to go back almost straight away. Of course, the

842
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 13: police case is that Bronwin was killed by John that evening,

843
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 13: something that John emphatically denies.

844
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: We know that John bought petrol and balina at eleven

845
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: h six pm and sometime after that he left for Sydney.

846
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 13: Yes, there's a verified receipt for this fuel purchase by John.

847
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 13: There is also the evidence of John's neighbor, Murray Nolan,

848
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 13: who saw and heard John's Ford Falcon leaving the house

849
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 13: and rolling down Sandstone Crescent at ten forty pm. Murray

850
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 13: says the car's engine and lights were off until it

851
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 13: got to the bottom of the crescent. Then the car started,

852
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 13: the lights were turned on and it drove away.

853
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: We believe that sadly Bromwin was dead by this time,

854
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: and that her body was in the house, possibly moved

855
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: via the internal stairs and through a lockable internal door

856
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: down to the garage. But John's options were limited because

857
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: the Ford Falcon was almost out of fuel and he

858
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: had to get to the Ampole in Ballino to fill

859
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: up before he could do anything else. So Murray Nolan's

860
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: ten forty pm sighting of the Ford Falcon leaving the

861
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: house does fit neatly with the timing of John's purchase

862
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: of petrol at eleven oh six pm at the ampole

863
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: in Ballana, a fifteen to twenty minute drive from Sandstone Crescent.

864
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, there's also new evidence that's come out during the

865
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 13: podcast from Judy scene of John transporting in the backseat

866
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 13: of the family car something that appeared to Judy to

867
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 13: look like a body wrapped in sheets. Judy told you

868
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 13: Hadley that she was sitting on her deck and that

869
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 13: she had a bird's eye view into the Ford Falcon

870
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 13: because its interior light was on. Judy also told you

871
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 13: that it was late. She put this sighting at around

872
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 13: midnight or a little after midnight, and Judy told me.

873
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: That John looked up and that he possibly saw her

874
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: looking down at him driving slowly past her house in

875
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: Granite Street off Sandstone Crescent, near John and Bromin's house.

876
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: I believe that Judy's eyewitness account is solid.

877
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 13: Headley, You've also verified from others that Judy was deeply

878
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 13: troubled by what she saw. She had shared her concerns

879
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 13: with several people, including her family, a close friend, and

880
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 13: a New Zealand doctor over those past three decades. She

881
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 13: had also tried to report it to police several times.

882
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, Judy Singh is very credible in my view, and

883
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: we believe that Judy's sighting also fits the chronology because

884
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: with the Ford Falcon having been refueled in Barna at

885
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: eleven oh six pm, John would have then driven back

886
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: to the house in Sandstone Crescent. We believe that's when

887
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: he would have put Broman's body in the back seat

888
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: and driven out again, this time along Granite Street, where

889
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: Judy was sitting on her deck when she saw John,

890
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: and she says saw what looked like a body in

891
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: that distinctive Ford face.

892
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 13: Can we believe that John intended to dispose of Bronwin's

893
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 13: body somewhere near Lennox had but that because of Judy's sighting,

894
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 13: John put Bronwin's body in the boot of the car,

895
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 13: packed up with the two girls and the dog, and

896
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 13: left very quickly for Sydney.

897
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 1: If Judy sings right, John would have left some time

898
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: after midnight. This would have been just four to five

899
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: hours after John had arrived back in Lennox Head from Sydney.

900
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 13: Yes, and importantly, the citing evidence of both Murray, Nolan

901
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 13: and Judy seing fit with what we suspect is unfolded.

902
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's recap on all of it. Zero point one.

903
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: We believe that after Bronwin had died, John drove to

904
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: Baliner to get fuel. That was the ten forty pm

905
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: event which Murray witnessed, and Murray said the car bottomed

906
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 1: out when it went down the driveway with its lights

907
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: and engine off. But as the inquest heard in two

908
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: thousand and two, that was not as rare or as

909
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: suspense as it perhaps seemed. In fact, it had happened

910
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: before because on other occasions John apparently didn't want to

911
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: disturb he's near neighbors when he would leave early in

912
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: the morning. We do not believe her body was in

913
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: the boot when John went to Barner for his fuel

914
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: fill up, timed at eleven oh six pm. Point two,

915
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: We believe that John has returned from the ampole in

916
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: Barner to his house in Sandstone Crescent, arriving back around

917
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: eleven thirty pm, and Murray would have been asleep by then.

918
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 13: Point three. We believe John has then moved Bronwin's body

919
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 13: from the garage to the back seat of the family car.

920
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 13: But John hadn't closed the back door properly, and in

921
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 13: that model of car, it meant the interior light stayed.

922
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: Ono point four. We believe that he then drove slowly

923
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: along Granite Street around midnight, and that was the Judy

924
00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: seeing sighting. Remember, Judy disclosed to me that John actually

925
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: looked up to where she was sitting on her upstairs deck.

926
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: There was a light on her deck. Judy believed that

927
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,760
Speaker 1: John was quite possibly concerned that she had seen him.

928
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 13: Zero point five. We believe that John has then hastily

929
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 13: driven back to the house and moved Bronwin's body from

930
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 13: the back feet to the car's boots. Then John has

931
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 13: made a new plan because if.

932
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 1: He suspected that Judy had seen him, he would have

933
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: been concerned that she might call police. And say I

934
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: think I saw my neighbor driving with what looks like

935
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: a body in his car. We believe that's why John

936
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: needed to leave the house and the area with the

937
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: two girls in a final departure some time before one

938
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: am in what was a very sudden and suspicious getaway.

939
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: Murray's sighting of John at ten point forty pm and

940
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 1: Judy's sighting of John around midnight actually build and corroborate

941
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: the timeline. In our view.

942
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 13: We believe John got his two girls and the dog

943
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 13: in to the car after midnight and then embarked on

944
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 13: the long drive to Sydney. We believe that the building

945
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 13: side at Illowong became his new plan B, and that

946
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 13: he wanted to get to Illowong, just south of Sydney

947
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 13: sometime on Monday before the concrete pause occurred point six.

948
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: We also believe that his unusual efforts to share with

949
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: people the timing of his receipt for his fuel purchase

950
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: at eleven oh six PM are explained too. It's because

951
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: the receipt supported a claim by John that that was

952
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: the real time John left Barner for the drive to Sydney,

953
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: and of course that receipt would undermine any claim Judy

954
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: sin might make that she saw him with what looked

955
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: like a body around midnight or a little after midnight.

956
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: He would be able to say, that's ridiculous, she's making

957
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: stuff up. Look, I've even got a receipt for a

958
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: fuel purchase at eleven oh six pm. But in our view,

959
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: John in fact left sometime before one am.

960
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 13: It's exactly what the famed former detective Mick Drury describes

961
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 13: as a classic example of alibi construction. We believe that

962
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 13: Judy's version is reliable and that John's drive to Sydney

963
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 13: began some time between midnight and one am.

964
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 1: He must have been exhausted, and it begs the question

965
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: why would you drive away so urgently after such a

966
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: long day.

967
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 13: Already I agree Hadley, and quite frankly the circumstances of

968
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 13: John's departure for Sydney on Sunday May sixteen, which is

969
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 13: really bizarre in a number of ways. There was very

970
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 13: little time between John flying from Sydney to the Ballina

971
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 13: Airport and then driving from there to Lenox Heads, and

972
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 13: after this leaving lenox Head to drive to Sydney. He

973
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 13: left late at night. We think sometime after midnight. He

974
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 13: was traveling with two young girls who were aged five

975
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 13: and ten, and Mopsy the dog, and it's quite unusual

976
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 13: to travelsaneously at this time of night with young children.

977
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 13: Witnesses have said that the family home was left in

978
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 13: a complete mess, washing in the washing machine, food on plates,

979
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 13: the girl's beds were stripped. This was very out of

980
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 13: character for John. So many people that you've spoken to

981
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 13: Hadley have mentioned his insistence upon organization and tidiness and cleanliness,

982
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 13: particularly in the home.

983
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 1: It's a long drive. It's some eight hundred odd kilometers

984
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: from Lenox Head to Sydney.

985
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's a huge distance.

986
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: We know that John took hardly any luggage to Sydney,

987
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: just very limited clothing for the girls, and that appeared

988
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: to have been thrown into pillowcases. They ended up staying

989
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: in Sydney for ten days. It was winter again. It

990
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: just underlies this was an abrupt and unplanned departure. In

991
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: our view, if Broman's body went to Sydney in the

992
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: Ford Falcon, she had to be in the boot. The

993
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: car had an LPG tank in its boot. We know

994
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: there would have been room for a body with the

995
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:07,479
Speaker 1: tank in the boot, but probably not room for suitcases too.

996
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 13: The other thing we know is that it wasn't school

997
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 13: holidays in mid May. The girls were supposed to be

998
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 13: at school the very next morning. It's really unusual to

999
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 13: take two children at late notice out of school during

1000
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 13: term time without good reason and without letting the school

1001
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 13: know about it.

1002
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 5: First.

1003
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: Your list Karna then has John arriving in Sydney on

1004
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: the morning of May seventeen, that's a Monday, and after

1005
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: visiting the hair salon, he leaves the two girls with

1006
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: someone who was a complete stranger to them and to John.

1007
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: This person was his ex wife's new mother in law.

1008
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: So Jenny Mason, who was John's first wife, has remarried

1009
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: and her new husband's mother is at Jenny's home. While

1010
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: Jenny's out shopping, John leaves the girls with this woman,

1011
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: Joan Mason. Lauren and Crystal were in their pajamas. John

1012
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: went to this stranger instead of Roman's brother and sister

1013
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: in law. Andy and Michelle read they were in the

1014
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: same suburb, and since they learned about this years after

1015
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: the event, they found it absolutely extraordinary that John would

1016
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: have left the girls with a stranger in those circumstances.

1017
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: If John had taken the girls to a relative that

1018
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: would have undoubtedly raised questions about Rombin's whereabouts and the

1019
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: reasons for John's hasty travel to Sydney. There may have

1020
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: even been a risk that relatives would have wanted to

1021
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: go to the car boot, perhaps to help with luggage

1022
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: that they would have thought would have been there.

1023
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 13: Like Andy and Michelle Hadley, I've just found this event

1024
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 13: in particular really extraordinary. And in his only formal interview

1025
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 13: with police, John was asked about his movements on May seventeen.

1026
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 13: He didn't tell police about leaving the girls at his

1027
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 13: ex wife's house with a stranger. This could be a

1028
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 13: deliberate decision by John not to disclose information to avoid

1029
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 13: arousing the suspicion of police about his actions and his

1030
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 13: whereabouts on that Monday. Another thing that John didn't tell

1031
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 13: police was how he spent a number of hours on

1032
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 13: the Monday from about the late morning to the early afternoon.

1033
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 13: John's movements between him dropping the girls at the ex

1034
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 13: wife's house and him registering the car at three oh

1035
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 13: seven pm and then going to Andy and Michelle's around

1036
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 13: four PM are still a mystery. John had the time

1037
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 13: and the opportunity to go to the building site at

1038
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 13: ill Along in this time and dispose of Bronwin's body

1039
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 13: or other evidence such as her handbag.

1040
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: He wasn't expected in Sydney by anyone on Monday, not

1041
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: his daughter Jody, not Andy and Michelle, not his ex wife,

1042
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: and not the builder Glenn Webster. He didn't have any

1043
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: accommodation or childcare arranged, even though he was traveling with

1044
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: two young children and a dog. Just such a weird

1045
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 1: series of movements for someone who likes to always be

1046
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: in control and have a plan.

1047
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 13: It just seems very out of character to act so spontaneously.

1048
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: John's explanations for the reasons for this travel to Sydney

1049
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: they're just not consistent and they are all over the shop.

1050
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: One thing police didn't know is something a confidential source

1051
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,000
Speaker 1: has told me, and that is that John told this

1052
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: person on the afternoon of Monday May seventeen that he

1053
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: had to be back in Sydney for an upcoming concrete

1054
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: poor in the Southern Shire. That source said John did

1055
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: appear agitated and he appeared to regret having disclosed that

1056
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: there was going to be a concrete poor. Now, the

1057
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 1: builder Glenn Webster, who employed John has said John wasn't

1058
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 1: needed for the concrete poor.

1059
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 13: We also know that John went back to work at

1060
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 13: the Illawong building site during this ten days stay in Sydney,

1061
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 13: but he did not disclose this to police. He did

1062
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 13: not tell police he had returned to Sydney for urgent

1063
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 13: work or a big job, which are the reasons he

1064
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 13: gave to others for the trip.

1065
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 1: And he was asked about what he was doing in Sydney.

1066
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: He had an opportunity to say I was working. I

1067
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: was doing some bricklaying at Illawong, a building site. You

1068
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: can talk to Glenn Webster. That doesn't fall from his lips.

1069
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 4: No, that's right.

1070
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 13: He was very squarely asked what he was doing in

1071
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 13: Sydney and what he was doing on Monday, May seventeen,

1072
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 13: nineteen ninety three, and John only gave a really vague

1073
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 13: explanation to police about what he and the girls had

1074
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 13: done during their time in Sydney. He told police, probably

1075
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 13: just hang about, just sort of sight seeing and everything.

1076
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 16: You know.

1077
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 13: The evidence is actually that the girls and the dogs

1078
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 13: stayed with Andy and Michelle and John stayed elsewhere but

1079
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 13: visited most days. We believe John deliberately withheld the information

1080
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 13: about him working at the Illawong building site from police

1081
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 13: to distance himself from that site, and also from concrete

1082
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 13: pause that we believe might have occurred on the Tuesday

1083
01:02:58,600 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 13: or Wednesday of that week.

1084
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: When you go to Illawong, Now, it's hard to imagine

1085
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: what it would have looked like on Monday, May seventeen,

1086
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three. I mean, that was thirty two years ago.

1087
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: Now it's very established. But back then, the building site

1088
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: on which John was working was a vacant block of

1089
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: land in a mostly vacant housing estate. It was isolated.

1090
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: The vast majority of the properties, including all of those

1091
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: in the actual street, were not under construction, so there

1092
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: weren't people around. The bricklayer turning up on a Monday

1093
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 1: in his vehicle is not going to arouse suspicion. John

1094
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: usually worked alone at the site, with the builder, Glenn Webster,

1095
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: acting from time to time as his laborer. If John

1096
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: wasn't there, Glenn wasn't there. Glenn's told us that, and

1097
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 1: we don't believe Glenn was at the site that Monday

1098
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: because he thought John was still Atlantic's head.

1099
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 13: The other thing we know is that one of Crystal's

1100
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 13: friends has said that Crystal told her that Cristel and

1101
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 13: Lauren were not allowed by John to look in the

1102
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 13: boot of the on the morning of May seventeen. If

1103
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 13: this is true, it begs the question of what the

1104
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 13: girls were not meant to see.

1105
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 1: It's a lengthy list, Carena, there's more than twenty points,

1106
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: and I reckon we've missed a few. How important With

1107
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: your experience of running coeronnial investigations in the past, do

1108
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 1: you believe that Illawongs site potentially.

1109
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 6: Could be Headley.

1110
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 13: I think there's a real prospect that Bromwin's remains or

1111
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 13: other evidence, possibly her handbag, might be concealed at Illowong.

1112
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 13: When you pull all of these factors together that we've

1113
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 13: just been discussing, it's just such a compelling list of factors.

1114
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 13: I really feel that the Illawong site should be searched

1115
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 13: out of fairness to Bronwin and her family and to

1116
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 13: try and give them some answers. I've been thinking a

1117
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 13: lot this week about the ambiguous loss that they're living

1118
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 13: with not knowing where Bronwin is or what happened to her.

1119
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 13: Searching Illowong would at least answer that question for them.

1120
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: It almost goes without saying that it's very difficult to

1121
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: hand dig a grave, a grave that will not be

1122
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: disturbed by animals, say along the Pacific Highway or somewhere

1123
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: in Lennox Head, when it's dark, it's cold, you've got

1124
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: children either sleeping at home or in the car. However,

1125
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 1: at a building site where the ground has been prepared

1126
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: for a concrete pore, where there is phil that is

1127
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: readily moved to put the remains of someone or other

1128
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: evidence into it is a relatively straightforward, but macarb task.

1129
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 13: I agree, a much easier option, and there seems much

1130
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 13: less chance of the body ever being found.

1131
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: I'm even suspicious carena of the fact that when John

1132
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 1: turned up at Andy and Michelle's house in the afternoon

1133
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: for thirty PM, the boot lining, which back then was vinyl,

1134
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 1: was not visible. There was no vinyl lining in the

1135
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 1: boot of that vehicle. That's what Andy noted. Would that

1136
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: vinyl lining have been a useful wrap for a body

1137
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: already concealed perhaps in.

1138
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 13: Sheets it could have been, or perhaps it needed to

1139
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 13: be removed from the car because it might have had

1140
01:06:25,000 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 13: forensic evidence on it. From transporting the body.

1141
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 1: In a telecom television commercial in the year that Romwin disappeared,

1142
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: Australian country music singer John Williamson told Australians that they

1143
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: had one of the best phone services you could get.

1144
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:07,919
Speaker 8: Now we set to take our country into the next

1145
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 8: century and now shut the world outside this.

1146
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,959
Speaker 1: But could that phone service capture local call data at

1147
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 1: that time? For months, we have been trying to confirm

1148
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: once and for all whether police could have retrospectively obtained

1149
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: local telephone call data from Telstra for any local calls

1150
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 1: made from Sandstone Crescent on the evening of May sixteenth,

1151
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and Carina Berger has been doing a

1152
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: lot of work on this. The local call data is

1153
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 1: critically important in this case, and that's because John Winfield

1154
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: alleges Bromwin made some telephone calls shortly before she was

1155
01:07:55,600 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: purportedly picked up by an unknown person. Strong inference is

1156
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 1: that Bromwyn telephone the person who John says picked bromwn up.

1157
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 1: It follows then that if no telephone call was made,

1158
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 1: then John has been lying and nobody picked bromwn up

1159
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 1: and only the provision of local telephone call data would

1160
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: be able to verify this. But was that data available

1161
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: we have received contradictory information about that point. Back then,

1162
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:33,839
Speaker 1: Telstra was known as Telecom. We know that police asked

1163
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:38,879
Speaker 1: the telecommunications provider for some details about long distance calls

1164
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: and other non local calls made around the time Bromwyn disappeared.

1165
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 1: You have heard a bit about that in earlier episodes.

1166
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:52,719
Speaker 1: We know that at the inquest into Bromin's disappearance, evidence

1167
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,400
Speaker 1: was given that a Telstra employee had said that local

1168
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 1: call details would not have been available in ninety ninety three.

1169
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 1: We asked Telstra to confirm whether that position was correct.

1170
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 1: After some delay, we were told by a Telstra spokeswoman.

1171
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 18: This was not available for local calls respectively in nineteen

1172
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 18: ninety three and only became widely available in nineteen ninety seven.

1173
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,719
Speaker 18: In nineteen ninety three, there was a process in place

1174
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 18: to manually activate tracing for select reasons, one charge check

1175
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 18: where someone was disputing their charges, and two malicious call

1176
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 18: trace for police matters. Both of these needed to be

1177
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 18: proactively switched on prior to the call.

1178
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:45,360
Speaker 1: In episode thirty four, the former detective Michael Drury spoke

1179
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:50,639
Speaker 1: about podcasts having an investigational team of ten thousand or more.

1180
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 1: We've received a lot of information from listeners, all of

1181
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: whom have shown their goodwill and keenness to help by

1182
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 1: giving us some personal and often sensitive details from their

1183
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: own lives that led to their dealings with local call data.

1184
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: Listeners experiences with local call data vary greatly, but the

1185
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 1: timing of the events and the locations of the exchanges

1186
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:20,599
Speaker 1: are critical. We've been told by some listeners, including other

1187
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: Telstra workers, that local call data was available in the

1188
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:28,520
Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties. One former employee said.

1189
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,080
Speaker 19: I started working for Telecom in January nineteen ninety two

1190
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:36,799
Speaker 19: as a customer service officer in a call center in Townsville.

1191
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 19: At that time, local call data could be obtained, even

1192
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,320
Speaker 19: though it was not printed on customers bills.

1193
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 1: Another listener recalled her mother obtaining local call record from

1194
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 1: Telstra in nineteen ninety three for an address in western Sydney.

1195
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 1: But we haven't heard from anyone who has specific and

1196
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 1: particular knowledge about local call data and it's ability from

1197
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 1: the lenox Head area in nineteen ninety three. Lenox Head

1198
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:09,240
Speaker 1: is a regional area, and that probably meant that local

1199
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 1: called data was not available in nineteen ninety three, even

1200
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 1: though it may have been available elsewhere in metropolitan areas,

1201
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 1: technological advancements were rolled out across the cities before they

1202
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 1: got to the regions. Former Telstra employee Odette Nettleton has

1203
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 1: described her work experience for Telstra in regional New South Wales,

1204
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: and her recollection is that telephone exchange equipment in metropolitan

1205
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:41,679
Speaker 1: areas was upgraded much earlier than the equipment in regional areas.

1206
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: Odette says that in Gosford at this time that's mid

1207
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:51,680
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, there were no records of which numbers.

1208
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 4: Were dialed slowly each exchange was upgraded. These upgrades took

1209
01:11:56,400 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 4: place from late nineteen ninety seven and into nineteen ninety eight.

1210
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 1: From my memory, Odette checked with some other former Telecom

1211
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 1: and Telstra workers and their feedback was that the lenox

1212
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 1: Head telephone exchange may not have been upgraded until around

1213
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 1: August nineteen ninety seven. It seems to us that it's

1214
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 1: more likely than not that local call telephone data in

1215
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 1: lenox Head was not available to police in nineteen ninety three.

1216
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 20: Really nice person soft personality, softly spoken, very pretty girl.

1217
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 20: You'd always look at her and go, oh, she's just

1218
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 20: so nice.

1219
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 1: In this the last episode in the Bromwin series. For

1220
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 1: the time being and until there are new developments, it

1221
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: does seem fitting to talk about the woman at the

1222
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 1: heart of all of this.

1223
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:51,679
Speaker 20: My mum even put her in the Mister Luru contest

1224
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 20: down in Cronulla when she was younger.

1225
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 1: Fiona Houstoner grew up a stone's throw from where Bromwin

1226
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 1: and Andy lived as teenagers with their father, Philip, his

1227
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: second wife, and their daughter Melissa in the Shire. There

1228
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: are friendships forged four decades ago. Their ties were strong

1229
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 1: and meaningful back in the day. Fiona regularly drops into

1230
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: her own family home where Bromwyn would babysit her and

1231
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 1: her brother Sean.

1232
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 20: Mom and dad still live there, Andrew's mom still lives

1233
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 20: two doors down.

1234
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 1: Andy's stepmother, the woman he still calls mom, stayed there

1235
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:36,719
Speaker 1: after Philip's death. Their house in Krela in the Shire

1236
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:40,759
Speaker 1: has scarcely changed since the mid nineteen seventies when teenage

1237
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: Bromwin and little brother Andy were there.

1238
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 20: We used to go to their house all the time.

1239
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 1: Fiona tells me she was a little in awe of

1240
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: the older very pretty.

1241
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 20: Bromwin, always looking up to her, and we used to

1242
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 20: go over and see her after she had Crystal.

1243
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:01,080
Speaker 1: Why did you ask me to look at Broman's case

1244
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 1: six years ago?

1245
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 20: God, someone was missing and we've never heard anything about it,

1246
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 20: and it's someone you know. No one knew what had happened.

1247
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 20: It sort of just got swept under the carpet for

1248
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 20: a long time. Only Andrew was fighting for it. It

1249
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 20: seems much clearer now. It's just not swept under the

1250
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 20: carpet anymore.

1251
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 1: My friend Matt Condon is a remarkable writer. He thinks

1252
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 1: deeply about people, about his own work and the writing

1253
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 1: of others. Broman left behind some of her writing, and

1254
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,480
Speaker 1: you heard little snippets of this in very early episodes.

1255
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: Matt has studied Bromman's written words and then he wrote

1256
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:45,559
Speaker 1: something deeply moving about this mother of two's summary of

1257
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:48,760
Speaker 1: her life. We published it in the pages of The

1258
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,800
Speaker 1: Australian right back near the start of this series. At

1259
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:55,799
Speaker 1: that time I asked Matt to narrate it for audio

1260
01:14:56,240 --> 01:14:59,720
Speaker 1: to be used in a future episode. Now is the

1261
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: right time to hear Matt's and Broman's words and our

1262
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: videoographer friend Bianca's voice.

1263
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 21: It was one of the few artifacts she left behind

1264
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 21: after disappearing from her family home at Sandstone Crescent, Lennox Head.

1265
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:20,719
Speaker 21: On May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, Bronwin joy Winfield, thirty

1266
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 21: one supposedly abandoned two daughters, clothes, jewelry, a femur, and

1267
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 21: a fragment of autobiography. In the vacuum of her absence

1268
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:38,640
Speaker 21: was a nine page handwritten testimony on simple A four sheets.

1269
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 21: Perhaps not a testimony, but this is my life style

1270
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 21: of declaration. It begins with sometimes tortured remembrances of childhood moments.

1271
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 22: Andrew always wedding bed, my recurring nightmare of the man

1272
01:15:56,040 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 22: coming to my room often snuck into Andrew's bed and

1273
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:03,560
Speaker 22: on the end of it. When to Perth with stepmother,

1274
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 22: went to King's Park and Rottnest Island, went to Canns

1275
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:11,519
Speaker 22: and met Sonia and Billy McMahon while staying there. When

1276
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 22: to Fiji with family, a wonderful place and stayed Castaway Island,

1277
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 22: very primitive but picturesque god stranded in a lagoon was

1278
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 22: rescued by man and underwear, only to discover the water

1279
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 22: was only waist deep.

1280
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 21: Bronwin races through fractured teenage years, becomes mired in her

1281
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 21: contemporaneous marriage to John Winfield, and then leaps into the

1282
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 21: future with an unconvincing declaration of hope. The physical handwriting

1283
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 21: is tight knit, unfurling in long, unbroken paragraphs. It is

1284
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:54,080
Speaker 21: riddled with exclamation marks, The lower case eyes are topped

1285
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 21: with small circles as a child might punctuate. Mistakes are

1286
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 21: heavily scratched out with biro, and the text is flecked

1287
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:08,720
Speaker 21: with spelling and grammatical errors. But all that aside, the

1288
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 21: biggest and most curious question is this, why does this

1289
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 21: little personal manuscript in Bronman's hand even exist? Did she

1290
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:23,280
Speaker 21: write it over a period of time? If so, when

1291
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 21: and where? When she was living virtually hand to mouth

1292
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 21: in that small flat down in Byron Street after her

1293
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 21: marriage to John Winfield had collapsed and she'd left him.

1294
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,719
Speaker 21: Or was she sitting at the kitchen table in Sandstone Crescent,

1295
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 21: in that suburban estate on the ridge above the Coast

1296
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 21: Road and the sliver of Boulder Beach when she moved

1297
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:49,959
Speaker 21: back into the house while John was working in Sydney

1298
01:17:50,280 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 21: the marriage over, but she not willing to cut free

1299
01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 21: without assets she was legally entitled to. Did she write

1300
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 21: it on the fire all weekend of her life before

1301
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:07,640
Speaker 21: she disappeared. It's an opportunity to reflect a tableau, to

1302
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 21: unleash pent up emotions. You sense reading it that it

1303
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:17,479
Speaker 21: was a difficult task for her, this excavating of her

1304
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:23,640
Speaker 21: own life and times. She writes in sometimes abbreviated halting snatches,

1305
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:26,799
Speaker 21: as if under pressure to produce the document.

1306
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 22: Started school four years nine months mount Owsley Primary. Moved

1307
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 22: to Sydney age seven. We had Auntie Phillis looking after

1308
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 22: Melissa and Andrew and I before and after school. She

1309
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 22: used to bring us hot doughnuts in the mornings. Caught

1310
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:48,920
Speaker 22: recurrent ear infections and had chronic stomach upset after doctor's examination.

1311
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:54,040
Speaker 22: Moved after fire in Roseland's just escaped before place was

1312
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 22: almost destroyed. Moved to Murray Place, Sylvania. Traumatic time, to

1313
01:18:59,000 --> 01:18:59,679
Speaker 22: say the least.

1314
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:04,600
Speaker 21: The story she commits to paper is no fairy tale.

1315
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:09,679
Speaker 21: Hers is a fractured childhood. She is shunted between different

1316
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 21: schools and carers, endures a short stint in boarding school

1317
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 21: and wonders if she just left or was thrown out.

1318
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 21: There is animosity between her and her stepmother, she couldn't

1319
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 21: stand me and short stays with her nana. During this chaos.

1320
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 21: She writes of meeting her real mother, Barbara, who had

1321
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 21: fled husband Philip and the kids Bronwin and Andy with

1322
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:43,080
Speaker 21: postnatal depression, only to turn up in Tasmania years later.

1323
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:49,640
Speaker 21: She records the continued animosity with her stepmother. She recounts

1324
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:51,520
Speaker 21: her first kiss.

1325
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 22: Year ten dance Robert Austen. Wasn't supposed to go, but pleaded,

1326
01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:59,719
Speaker 22: but didn't have anything to wear but Daggie Fletcher Jones

1327
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,840
Speaker 22: g and DJ shirt just one in Denham Jean's like the.

1328
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:06,680
Speaker 21: Others and a nickname given to her.

1329
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:13,080
Speaker 22: Nickname Twiggy, Tall and Slim. Left school year ten, wanted

1330
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 22: to leave home, hated it.

1331
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:19,560
Speaker 21: There is a creeping sense in the manuscript that Bronwan's

1332
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:24,759
Speaker 21: life was touched from childhood with bad luck. She walks

1333
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 21: out on her first job at the Bank of New

1334
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 21: South Wales.

1335
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 22: Was harassed by accountant when a bank manager who just laughed,

1336
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:38,360
Speaker 22: couldn't stand the accountant, couldn't get transfer, walked out one afternoon,

1337
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 22: never went back.

1338
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 21: And is picked up by the police for smoking pot.

1339
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:48,760
Speaker 21: Her rendition of how her first child was conceived was

1340
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 21: hardly lifted from a romance novel.

1341
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 22: Meanwhile, I fell pregnant to Mark Davis because I was

1342
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 22: drinking at my birthday party after an argument with Mark Guthrie,

1343
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 22: who wanted to marry me.

1344
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 21: She gives birth to Crystal and lives on her own

1345
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:07,640
Speaker 21: until she is briefly married to a crook.

1346
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 22: Then moved to Nana Reed's unit for a while, then

1347
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:12,680
Speaker 22: the place was sold.

1348
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 21: And is staying with friends. When she meets Jonathan got.

1349
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 22: To know John. We talked and I felt I had

1350
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:21,599
Speaker 22: made a friend.

1351
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 21: John has a daughter, Jody, to a previous relationship. By

1352
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 21: page five of the diary, things move quickly. Bronwan starts

1353
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 21: living with John in a flat behind a milk bar

1354
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 21: in South Cronulla. Then the grievances immediately kick in.

1355
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 22: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.

1356
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 22: The house that was Bill became John's castle and my prison.

1357
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:53,720
Speaker 21: On some pages there is random children scrawling, perhaps in

1358
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:58,639
Speaker 21: the hand of Lauren, then a toddler. It's a heartbreaking document,

1359
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:03,559
Speaker 21: a small record of a short and relatively uneventful life.

1360
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:07,040
Speaker 21: Despite the glory of her children.

1361
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 22: I was surrounded by hate and abuse in various ways

1362
01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:12,559
Speaker 22: as a child, and am determined not to allow this

1363
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:16,600
Speaker 22: to happen to my girls or myself ever again. No

1364
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 22: one will ever intimidate me again, nor will I allow

1365
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:22,559
Speaker 22: anyone to force their opinions onto me, as this can

1366
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,479
Speaker 22: cause damage to myself as well as my children.

1367
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 21: Here I am, it says, near the end, exposed. This

1368
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:35,680
Speaker 21: is me warts and all. My marriage has fallen apart,

1369
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 21: and this is how I'm feeling about my life.

1370
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,479
Speaker 22: Eventually I switched off and became cold inside. He had

1371
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 22: a heart of ice and always criticized me no matter

1372
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 22: what I did. The man was cold and heartless and

1373
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 22: gave nothing but expected everything.

1374
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 21: So why did she do it? Was she asked to

1375
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 21: commit to paper a summary of herself and her life?

1376
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:05,759
Speaker 21: Was this the raw material for a future court battle

1377
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:10,360
Speaker 21: with estranged husband John over custody of their children and

1378
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 21: the division of assets? Or was she setting down her

1379
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 21: history in the shadow of uncertainty about her future, wanting

1380
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 21: to leave a record behind for her children. Then she

1381
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 21: disappeared without a trace. Now those nine pages, for so

1382
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 21: many different reasons, have become remarkable and priceless.

1383
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 1: Before we go, please listen again to one of Broman's

1384
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 1: best friends in Lennox Head, a special woman called Denise Barnard.

1385
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:49,080
Speaker 1: I interviewed her for the first time on February fourteen,

1386
01:23:49,439 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, at the home her husband Les built

1387
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 1: for them. You first heard Denise's voice in episode two.

1388
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 1: How do you feel about Bromin's case becoming part of

1389
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:04,360
Speaker 1: this podcast investigation?

1390
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:05,640
Speaker 19: Fantastic.

1391
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 1: You're not worried about bringing up painful memories and difficult

1392
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 1: situations that I.

1393
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:18,400
Speaker 23: Think we need to We need to do it. It's been

1394
01:24:18,439 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 23: too long. Anybody that had anything to impart any more

1395
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 23: information to try and get this resolved one way or

1396
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 23: the other wouldn't be interested in.

1397
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:29,920
Speaker 1: Talking to you.

1398
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,320
Speaker 23: I still recollect when she told me that he had

1399
01:24:33,320 --> 01:24:36,640
Speaker 23: had her by the throat up against the wall and

1400
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 23: that she was frightened. I think she was committed to

1401
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:44,200
Speaker 23: leaving him and taking the girls and starting a new

1402
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:48,280
Speaker 23: life for herself. They were her wife, and knowing that

1403
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:52,839
Speaker 23: Chrystal wasn't John's, she wouldn't have gone anywhere without them.

1404
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 23: She just wouldn't have done it. Whatever happened on that

1405
01:24:56,320 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 23: Sunday night, that was the last of Bromin. Next tonight,

1406
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:04,000
Speaker 23: those girls lost their mum.

1407
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 1: Denise cared deeply about Bromin. She hoped that there would

1408
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:09,759
Speaker 1: be justice.

1409
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:14,479
Speaker 23: And do you know Broman's third person of my friends

1410
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:17,519
Speaker 23: that's gone missing without a trace, you would have heard

1411
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 23: of Debbie Walkin and George Jamison. Yeah, that was to

1412
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 23: all my friends in Sydney that disappear, never a trace

1413
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 23: of them ever, both nurses and rumored i'd heard either

1414
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:30,360
Speaker 23: la they were eighteen.

1415
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:33,000
Speaker 6: Whatever happened to them?

1416
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 23: How do people just disappear and you will never see

1417
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 23: them again.

1418
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 1: The day before this episode thirty six, I went back

1419
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 1: and listened to my recordings with Denise to some of

1420
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:48,760
Speaker 1: the things that she said which were not published in

1421
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,680
Speaker 1: the podcast. Denise had refused to talk to John Winfield

1422
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:53,599
Speaker 1: for a long time.

1423
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:57,559
Speaker 23: I hope it'd be a bit frightened that something might be.

1424
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:02,720
Speaker 1: Uncovered when I met her. The Bromwin podcast investigation was

1425
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 1: three months away from the release of its first episode.

1426
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: Throughout its life, Denise has hoped that it would make

1427
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:10,959
Speaker 1: a difference.

1428
01:26:11,920 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 23: Let's see if we can do something and get something

1429
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 23: happening with this good a great outcome.

1430
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:20,719
Speaker 1: Denise and her husband Lez were in touch with deb

1431
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:25,360
Speaker 1: Hall and Murray Nolan, familiar friends in a relatively small

1432
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 1: community touched by the unresolved disappearance of a much love

1433
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 1: woman in nineteen ninety three.

1434
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:33,840
Speaker 3: Looking forward to catching up with them.

1435
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:36,040
Speaker 6: Are they coming out for a glass having that wine?

1436
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,679
Speaker 23: Yeah, we're going to Yeah, that's good after you talk

1437
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:40,160
Speaker 23: to Headley.

1438
01:26:40,439 --> 01:26:41,240
Speaker 5: Yeah together.

1439
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:43,920
Speaker 1: I promised to leave you a few times now.

1440
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:46,679
Speaker 6: To get home to your family.

1441
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1442
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:48,920
Speaker 3: It was lovely to meet you.

1443
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 23: Good to chat to you again, mister numbers for you.

1444
01:26:55,280 --> 01:26:58,719
Speaker 1: Denise was true to her word. She called other people

1445
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:01,600
Speaker 1: who knew Bromwin. She asked them to talk to me

1446
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:02,599
Speaker 1: and they did.

1447
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 23: Safe journey home, Good luck with it.

1448
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 1: You've been grave. We end now with a special thanks

1449
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 1: to everyone who has helped get this far. You have

1450
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:18,480
Speaker 1: all been remarkable and a heartfelt thank you to Denise Barnard,

1451
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: Bromlin's dear friend. Sadly, Denise died two days before this

1452
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 1: episode was released. Our deepest sympathies are extended to Denise's husband,

1453
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 1: Les and their family. Bronwm is written and investigated by

1454
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:51,040
Speaker 1: me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian.

1455
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:56,280
Speaker 1: If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case,

1456
01:27:56,560 --> 01:28:02,120
Speaker 1: please contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian

1457
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: dot com dot Au. You can read more about this

1458
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:10,320
Speaker 1: case and see a range of photographs and other artwork

1459
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:15,760
Speaker 1: at the website Bromwyn Podcast dot com. Our subscribers and

1460
01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 1: registered users here episodes first. The production and editorial team

1461
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 1: for bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget,

1462
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 1: Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen,

1463
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 1: Matthew Condon, Karina Verger and David Murray, with assistance from

1464
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:40,800
Speaker 1: Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series is by

1465
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 1: Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We

1466
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 1: have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwyn Winfield.

1467
01:28:50,880 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 1: We can only do this kind of journalism with the

1468
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 1: support of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1469
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

1470
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,

1471
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy

1472
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:16,480
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver, go to the Australian dot com

1473
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe