1
00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,281
Speaker 1: Apodja Production.

2
00:00:14,241 --> 00:00:16,481
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,

3
00:00:16,481 --> 00:00:22,481
Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Roger Callub Rogerson, arguably Australia's most corrupt cop,

4
00:00:22,761 --> 00:00:24,360
Speaker 2: has been gone for more than a year.

5
00:00:25,281 --> 00:00:28,961
Speaker 3: Former Detective Roger Rogerson was today dismissed from the New

6
00:00:28,961 --> 00:00:33,761
Speaker 3: South Wales Police Force following a string of corruption allegations.

7
00:00:33,961 --> 00:00:36,321
Speaker 2: He died while serving a life sentence for the murder

8
00:00:36,361 --> 00:00:38,041
Speaker 2: of drug dealer Jamie Gower.

9
00:00:38,561 --> 00:00:41,640
Speaker 4: The body of Jamie Gow has been recovered from waters

10
00:00:41,681 --> 00:00:44,721
Speaker 4: off the New South Wales coast way down with an

11
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:45,481
Speaker 4: anchor chain.

12
00:00:46,641 --> 00:00:49,481
Speaker 2: It was a cruel and callous execution inside a storage

13
00:00:49,521 --> 00:00:54,161
Speaker 2: unit and padstow in Sydney, Southwest on May twenty, twenty fourteen.

14
00:00:54,641 --> 00:00:57,121
Speaker 2: He was shot twice at close range.

15
00:00:57,361 --> 00:01:00,881
Speaker 4: Two former police officers have been taken in for questioning.

16
00:01:01,721 --> 00:01:04,161
Speaker 2: I knew Roger for a decade and I will say

17
00:01:04,161 --> 00:01:07,640
Speaker 2: he was a charming, charismatic man, even if history will

18
00:01:07,681 --> 00:01:12,241
Speaker 2: show he was also an amoral and lethal individual. When

19
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 2: I met Roger, he was a performer on the True

20
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,041
Speaker 2: Crime circuit doing live shows around the country with Mark

21
00:01:18,121 --> 00:01:20,920
Speaker 2: Chopper Reid and Mark Jacker Jackson.

22
00:01:21,761 --> 00:01:25,000
Speaker 4: Mark Chopper Reid has become one of Australia's most in

23
00:01:25,041 --> 00:01:26,601
Speaker 4: demand public speakers.

24
00:01:27,601 --> 00:01:31,801
Speaker 2: My guest today, Mark Hammer Dixon performed security duties for

25
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 2: Roger and Chopper and spent many days on the road

26
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,601
Speaker 2: with them, but he was far more than a bouncer

27
00:01:38,721 --> 00:01:43,200
Speaker 2: or a security type. Mark and Roger formed a close friendship.

28
00:01:43,721 --> 00:01:46,961
Speaker 2: In fact, in the days after Roger killed Gow with

29
00:01:47,041 --> 00:01:50,721
Speaker 2: another former cop, Glenn McNamara, Roger went to stay with

30
00:01:50,801 --> 00:01:52,761
Speaker 2: Mark Dixon at his home in Queensland.

31
00:01:53,161 --> 00:01:57,320
Speaker 4: Glenn McNamara, a former New South Wales detective, was tonight

32
00:01:57,481 --> 00:02:02,281
Speaker 4: charged alongside Roger Rogerson with the murder of Jamie Gow.

33
00:02:02,841 --> 00:02:06,081
Speaker 2: In hindsight, this was a chilling ex experience for Dixon

34
00:02:06,601 --> 00:02:10,041
Speaker 2: to see how cool and calm Roger was having committed

35
00:02:10,361 --> 00:02:12,041
Speaker 2: this cold blooded murder.

36
00:02:12,321 --> 00:02:15,761
Speaker 3: Roger Rogerson was today sentenced to life in prison for

37
00:02:15,841 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 3: the murder of Jamie Gal, closing the final chapter on

38
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,240
Speaker 3: one of the most extraordinary and troubling careers in Australian

39
00:02:23,321 --> 00:02:24,561
Speaker 3: law enforcement history.

40
00:02:25,761 --> 00:02:28,160
Speaker 2: And Mark Dixon has agreed to share memories of those

41
00:02:28,281 --> 00:02:31,321
Speaker 2: days and his relationship with the Dodger good.

42
00:02:31,121 --> 00:02:34,601
Speaker 1: A Mark, Hello, Adam, how are you today?

43
00:02:35,081 --> 00:02:36,161
Speaker 2: Very well? Indeed yourself?

44
00:02:36,881 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, my top of the world. Mate.

45
00:02:39,001 --> 00:02:41,401
Speaker 2: You haveful a gentleman and I'm very pleased to be

46
00:02:41,441 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 2: talking to you. I think you're one of the better

47
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,841
Speaker 2: people I've met in my twenty five years of crime journalism.

48
00:02:47,121 --> 00:02:49,481
Speaker 4: You don't even have a criminal record. No I don't,

49
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,121
Speaker 4: And you could have said one of the best looking.

50
00:02:52,121 --> 00:02:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, we won't go too far.

51
00:02:56,121 --> 00:02:57,921
Speaker 1: Yeah, mate, it's a pleasure to be on the show.

52
00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:58,561
Speaker 1: Thank you, Adam.

53
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,081
Speaker 2: Yeah, pleasure to have you tell me? How did your

54
00:03:01,121 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 2: first meet Roger? What are your first memories?

55
00:03:03,841 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: Make noy following.

56
00:03:05,641 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 4: This bloke a long long time before I ever met him.

57
00:03:08,601 --> 00:03:11,761
Speaker 4: I believe the actual time I really become interested was

58
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,641
Speaker 4: when I read Eddie Smith's book. But I had seen

59
00:03:14,761 --> 00:03:18,161
Speaker 4: Roger on the TV before that year's before that, and.

60
00:03:18,121 --> 00:03:20,321
Speaker 1: Then one day I had an opportunity.

61
00:03:20,601 --> 00:03:22,961
Speaker 4: I suppose you could say it was via Chopper when

62
00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,281
Speaker 4: I was looking after Chopper, but via one of the

63
00:03:25,321 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 4: comedians knew Roger very well and we got in touch.

64
00:03:29,001 --> 00:03:29,361
Speaker 2: Anyway.

65
00:03:29,361 --> 00:03:31,400
Speaker 4: I went and met him in Sydney, down there, and

66
00:03:32,081 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 4: I suppose we just hit it off from the word go.

67
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,641
Speaker 4: I was doing Bodyguarden for him security whatever anyone calls it,

68
00:03:38,681 --> 00:03:41,841
Speaker 4: and a bit of deck collecting together. But basically we

69
00:03:41,921 --> 00:03:42,641
Speaker 4: were good mates.

70
00:03:43,561 --> 00:03:47,321
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you knew his background, that he'd been accused

71
00:03:47,321 --> 00:03:50,521
Speaker 2: of killing Warren land Franchi, the drug dealer the eighties.

72
00:03:50,881 --> 00:03:54,481
Speaker 2: There are other things, it'd been to jail for issues

73
00:03:54,521 --> 00:03:57,601
Speaker 2: to do with money laundering and so forth. What were

74
00:03:57,601 --> 00:04:00,161
Speaker 2: your impressions of him, because I mean by this time,

75
00:04:00,801 --> 00:04:02,881
Speaker 2: I mean most people would have said, Roger's no longer

76
00:04:02,921 --> 00:04:06,281
Speaker 2: a copies more like a scaley where you know, on

77
00:04:06,361 --> 00:04:07,241
Speaker 2: the other side of the law.

78
00:04:08,121 --> 00:04:12,841
Speaker 4: Very very charming fella, very intelligent, and I suppose he's

79
00:04:12,961 --> 00:04:15,961
Speaker 4: very manipulative when he wanted to be as well. However,

80
00:04:16,001 --> 00:04:19,641
Speaker 4: we got along really really well. You know, you meet

81
00:04:19,641 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 4: the bloke who's been somewhat of a hero to me.

82
00:04:22,281 --> 00:04:24,001
Speaker 4: I used to see him as a dirty Harry that

83
00:04:24,121 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 4: used to guard around getting people at well. Society didn't

84
00:04:27,761 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 4: need these people, you know, in the scheme of things,

85
00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,001
Speaker 4: and I just saw him as like Australia's answered to

86
00:04:33,041 --> 00:04:34,401
Speaker 4: dirty Harry.

87
00:04:34,481 --> 00:04:37,601
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's a fair description because when

88
00:04:37,641 --> 00:04:41,561
Speaker 2: he started his career there was I guess, broad public

89
00:04:41,601 --> 00:04:44,761
Speaker 2: support for cleaning up the drug dealers, for dealing with

90
00:04:44,841 --> 00:04:47,361
Speaker 2: people in a pretty harsh way if they were on

91
00:04:47,401 --> 00:04:51,281
Speaker 2: that side of the law, and people didn't really question

92
00:04:51,801 --> 00:04:52,801
Speaker 2: the methods too much.

93
00:04:53,921 --> 00:04:58,041
Speaker 4: No different time. We're talking fifty five sixty years ago.

94
00:04:57,921 --> 00:05:02,681
Speaker 1: Up until forty five years ago, and Roger got involved

95
00:05:02,681 --> 00:05:03,681
Speaker 1: as a cadet.

96
00:05:03,841 --> 00:05:07,161
Speaker 4: He joined the police in nineteen fifty eight as a cadet.

97
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,241
Speaker 4: I think it was nineteen sixty actually becoming sworn police officer.

98
00:05:11,721 --> 00:05:14,001
Speaker 4: I could be wrong with that date. I could be wrong,

99
00:05:14,281 --> 00:05:17,001
Speaker 4: but nineteen fifty eight is when he joined, which would

100
00:05:17,001 --> 00:05:19,481
Speaker 4: make him seventeen because he was born nineteen forty one.

101
00:05:20,041 --> 00:05:23,081
Speaker 4: Back then, he obviously got sworn in and did the

102
00:05:23,081 --> 00:05:26,121
Speaker 4: normal duties that a police officer would do then, street

103
00:05:26,161 --> 00:05:30,161
Speaker 4: beat and the traffic and whatnot. But he was aspiring

104
00:05:30,241 --> 00:05:32,721
Speaker 4: to be a detective. He always wanted to be a detective,

105
00:05:33,561 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 4: being as flamboyant and everything how he was, and particularly

106
00:05:38,841 --> 00:05:42,001
Speaker 4: good at putting together a brief of evidence and shorthand

107
00:05:42,041 --> 00:05:44,401
Speaker 4: and stuff like that. He caught the attention of some

108
00:05:44,481 --> 00:05:48,921
Speaker 4: big name detectives at the time, Ray Gunna, Kelly, Freddie Kray,

109
00:05:49,521 --> 00:05:51,921
Speaker 4: a couple of people like that. And though basically the

110
00:05:51,961 --> 00:05:55,001
Speaker 4: culture was back then you want to be detective, you

111
00:05:55,041 --> 00:05:57,201
Speaker 4: go along with us and you play by our rules

112
00:05:57,401 --> 00:05:59,281
Speaker 4: or you will spend the rest of you all days

113
00:05:59,401 --> 00:06:02,721
Speaker 4: in the traffic sport. Well, Roger wasn't having any bit

114
00:06:02,761 --> 00:06:07,681
Speaker 4: of that, and he followed these blokesully. These guys were well,

115
00:06:07,761 --> 00:06:10,881
Speaker 4: they were a generation before Roger and they were tough

116
00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 4: old blokes, very tough old school. They took a quid

117
00:06:13,921 --> 00:06:17,241
Speaker 4: on the side, and Roger sort of fell into that culture.

118
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,320
Speaker 4: As you say, I don't think he started out to

119
00:06:20,361 --> 00:06:23,281
Speaker 4: be taking money and that. I think it just became normal.

120
00:06:23,721 --> 00:06:25,761
Speaker 4: But you know, he done a lot of good as well.

121
00:06:26,481 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 2: Well he did, and I think he won the Peter

122
00:06:28,521 --> 00:06:32,481
Speaker 2: Mitchell Award, which is the highest on usapa's police could win.

123
00:06:33,041 --> 00:06:35,561
Speaker 2: He was the golden boy. I guess probably you had

124
00:06:35,601 --> 00:06:37,881
Speaker 2: lots of questions for him, But I imagine you, as

125
00:06:37,921 --> 00:06:40,241
Speaker 2: you say, your hero worshiped him. You know, do you

126
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:41,961
Speaker 2: ask him a lot of questions? Was he open about

127
00:06:42,001 --> 00:06:43,001
Speaker 2: his career?

128
00:06:43,361 --> 00:06:43,601
Speaker 1: Yeah?

129
00:06:43,721 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 4: He was very open with me though, even the first

130
00:06:47,601 --> 00:06:49,601
Speaker 4: day I met him. He picked me up at the

131
00:06:49,761 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 4: Sydney Airport and we were heading up to long Jetty,

132
00:06:53,121 --> 00:06:55,280
Speaker 4: which happened to be his holiday house that he bought.

133
00:06:55,601 --> 00:06:56,961
Speaker 1: I think it was nineteen seventy eight.

134
00:06:57,481 --> 00:07:00,361
Speaker 4: We're heading up there, because he said, you can't talk

135
00:07:00,401 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 4: in the house at Padstow because everyone was listening, which

136
00:07:05,041 --> 00:07:08,041
Speaker 4: I fully understood. And anyway, he got up there and

137
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,801
Speaker 4: the first thing I ever said to him what happened

138
00:07:10,841 --> 00:07:13,201
Speaker 4: there with Michael Drury? And he said, what do you

139
00:07:13,241 --> 00:07:15,201
Speaker 4: want to know that? I said, I'm just curious. I said,

140
00:07:15,881 --> 00:07:18,601
Speaker 4: you know, it's always fascinated me. The first thing he

141
00:07:18,641 --> 00:07:21,761
Speaker 4: said to me was Laurie pendergast Right.

142
00:07:21,601 --> 00:07:24,840
Speaker 2: And you're talking about the shooting of undercover cop Michael

143
00:07:24,921 --> 00:07:27,801
Speaker 2: Drury in nineteen eighty four. Yeah, in his house ninety

144
00:07:27,801 --> 00:07:30,121
Speaker 2: and eighty four in Chestswood. So that's the first question

145
00:07:30,121 --> 00:07:31,201
Speaker 2: you asked. It's pretty bold.

146
00:07:31,881 --> 00:07:35,801
Speaker 4: Well, I had to break the ice, and you know

147
00:07:36,121 --> 00:07:38,401
Speaker 4: I just said to him, Well, first of all, I said,

148
00:07:38,401 --> 00:07:40,201
Speaker 4: I'm a big fan. And I said, you know what, Roger,

149
00:07:40,241 --> 00:07:42,761
Speaker 4: I had have taken the bride and he laughed, that's

150
00:07:42,761 --> 00:07:44,521
Speaker 4: how I broke the ice. I said, I'd have taken

151
00:07:44,521 --> 00:07:47,281
Speaker 4: that money because I would have loved to have been

152
00:07:47,321 --> 00:07:50,161
Speaker 4: working with Roger as a copper back then. Jeez, I'm

153
00:07:50,201 --> 00:07:52,801
Speaker 4: just forty years too young. He said, I would have

154
00:07:52,841 --> 00:07:55,641
Speaker 4: fit right in too. Anyway. But he said to me, oh,

155
00:07:55,761 --> 00:07:58,641
Speaker 4: Laury Pendergast anyway, that's what he told me.

156
00:07:58,961 --> 00:08:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, because over the years, Michael Drury has always believed

157
00:08:03,721 --> 00:08:06,481
Speaker 2: that it was here the Christopher Daley rent a kill

158
00:08:06,881 --> 00:08:12,121
Speaker 2: or Roger. And it's funny after Roger died, Mick switched

159
00:08:12,121 --> 00:08:15,201
Speaker 2: from saying it was flattery to saying it was Roger,

160
00:08:15,401 --> 00:08:19,961
Speaker 2: mainly because of the shots two quick shots, double tap,

161
00:08:20,321 --> 00:08:23,481
Speaker 2: the way coppers shoot. But my response to that is

162
00:08:23,521 --> 00:08:26,521
Speaker 2: if it was Roger, Mick would have been dead.

163
00:08:26,881 --> 00:08:30,641
Speaker 4: In my opinion, well, I think Mick was close to death,

164
00:08:31,561 --> 00:08:34,241
Speaker 4: very close to this. And it's funny that you mentioned

165
00:08:34,241 --> 00:08:36,641
Speaker 4: that because Roger one other night.

166
00:08:36,601 --> 00:08:37,761
Speaker 1: Led his guard down with me.

167
00:08:37,801 --> 00:08:39,881
Speaker 4: He had a couple of drinks and we were at

168
00:08:40,081 --> 00:08:42,281
Speaker 4: Central Queensland in the town. We were doing a show

169
00:08:42,361 --> 00:08:44,481
Speaker 4: up there in dice Heart, believe it or not, just

170
00:08:44,561 --> 00:08:46,721
Speaker 4: me and him of the hotel room. Everyone else had

171
00:08:46,721 --> 00:08:48,801
Speaker 4: their own rooms with me and Roger, and he'd had

172
00:08:48,801 --> 00:08:51,881
Speaker 4: a few glasses of red after a few beers, and

173
00:08:52,241 --> 00:08:54,841
Speaker 4: he said, Chris, was that full of cocaine. He couldn't

174
00:08:54,841 --> 00:08:56,481
Speaker 4: hold the gun still, he said, I had to do it.

175
00:08:57,161 --> 00:08:59,801
Speaker 4: He led his guard down for that couple of seconds.

176
00:09:00,921 --> 00:09:02,281
Speaker 1: That's what he told me. Anyway.

177
00:09:02,521 --> 00:09:05,401
Speaker 4: And whether that's true or not, I don't don't know,

178
00:09:05,641 --> 00:09:08,201
Speaker 4: but I believe that story to be true.

179
00:09:09,361 --> 00:09:13,081
Speaker 2: Right because Laurie Prendergast, he's a possibility as well, by

180
00:09:13,081 --> 00:09:15,081
Speaker 2: the way, I mean, he was pretty willing. But he

181
00:09:15,121 --> 00:09:18,361
Speaker 2: disappeared not that long after that, and so you left

182
00:09:18,401 --> 00:09:21,521
Speaker 2: with Roger to tell the story. Chris Blanner is also dead.

183
00:09:22,001 --> 00:09:25,001
Speaker 2: But that's interesting because when you get to know a bloke,

184
00:09:25,281 --> 00:09:27,601
Speaker 2: you spend time with him in vehicles, you're having drinks

185
00:09:27,601 --> 00:09:30,161
Speaker 2: with him and so forth, and I think you're you're

186
00:09:30,161 --> 00:09:33,641
Speaker 2: the kind of fellow that could probably make him feel comfortable, you.

187
00:09:33,601 --> 00:09:35,561
Speaker 1: Know, absolutely, you know.

188
00:09:35,681 --> 00:09:37,881
Speaker 4: And you've had a big dinner and a good little

189
00:09:37,961 --> 00:09:40,001
Speaker 4: show here in dice Art. Not much of a crowd

190
00:09:40,041 --> 00:09:42,281
Speaker 4: and dice Art, but we had a good time there,

191
00:09:42,321 --> 00:09:44,001
Speaker 4: and a couple of footballers and that with us, some

192
00:09:44,081 --> 00:09:46,161
Speaker 4: boxes and stuff. But me and Roger are in the

193
00:09:46,201 --> 00:09:48,881
Speaker 4: same room, and he said that to me. And by

194
00:09:48,921 --> 00:09:50,721
Speaker 4: the way he talks, and his sleep a lot too.

195
00:09:51,441 --> 00:09:54,241
Speaker 4: It says funny things, you know, like because I'm a

196
00:09:54,321 --> 00:09:56,521
Speaker 4: light sleeper, I don't sleep real good. And I heard

197
00:09:56,601 --> 00:09:58,841
Speaker 4: him say one night, actually it was the same night

198
00:09:59,281 --> 00:10:02,761
Speaker 4: he said, I'm seeing the brief and we're all fucked

199
00:10:02,921 --> 00:10:05,521
Speaker 4: as what he said any sleep Now, I.

200
00:10:05,521 --> 00:10:07,481
Speaker 1: Just started giggling, I'd start laughing.

201
00:10:07,521 --> 00:10:10,841
Speaker 4: But I believe that that night, I think he was

202
00:10:10,881 --> 00:10:14,521
Speaker 4: telling me the truth about that Michael Drury situation.

203
00:10:15,521 --> 00:10:18,801
Speaker 2: Did it unnerve you that he was prepared to confess

204
00:10:18,521 --> 00:10:19,961
Speaker 2: these crimes?

205
00:10:20,561 --> 00:10:23,241
Speaker 4: No, MA, you know what, not really because I always

206
00:10:23,281 --> 00:10:26,761
Speaker 4: suspected it. I always suspected that there.

207
00:10:27,601 --> 00:10:30,521
Speaker 2: And he does trust you. He certainly trusted you to

208
00:10:30,561 --> 00:10:33,041
Speaker 2: the point where you're going and collecting debts with him.

209
00:10:33,081 --> 00:10:35,401
Speaker 2: What's it like to collect a debt with Roger Rogerson?

210
00:10:36,041 --> 00:10:38,961
Speaker 4: Well, the sort of debts he was collecting, we're sort

211
00:10:39,001 --> 00:10:41,801
Speaker 4: of corporate debts with people or investors and stuff, and

212
00:10:41,921 --> 00:10:45,201
Speaker 4: people had done work and weren't paid for it, builders

213
00:10:45,241 --> 00:10:46,121
Speaker 4: and stuff like that.

214
00:10:46,601 --> 00:10:47,961
Speaker 1: You'd rock up in the a room.

215
00:10:48,081 --> 00:10:50,481
Speaker 4: Just the prime example there years ago, one day and

216
00:10:50,601 --> 00:10:52,441
Speaker 4: I think it was two thousand and eight around there,

217
00:10:52,761 --> 00:10:56,841
Speaker 4: somewhere around there, walked into this people's apartment out there

218
00:10:56,881 --> 00:11:00,121
Speaker 4: in near Essendon Airport and you just walk in the room,

219
00:11:00,201 --> 00:11:02,761
Speaker 4: knock on the door. They are fully expecting us. He

220
00:11:02,801 --> 00:11:04,721
Speaker 4: walks in the room and you know what, it had

221
00:11:04,761 --> 00:11:07,801
Speaker 4: nothing to do with my presence, mate. But they made

222
00:11:07,841 --> 00:11:11,161
Speaker 4: Roger a cap uct and believe me, they signed a check,

223
00:11:11,641 --> 00:11:15,481
Speaker 4: a big check, very quickly, because the reputation proceeds him,

224
00:11:15,521 --> 00:11:18,561
Speaker 4: you know, and they're elderly people, and they just, you know,

225
00:11:18,761 --> 00:11:20,961
Speaker 4: we want this to be gone, and they couldn't get

226
00:11:21,041 --> 00:11:22,161
Speaker 4: him out of there quick enough.

227
00:11:22,681 --> 00:11:24,721
Speaker 2: And I think he had a way of saying to

228
00:11:24,801 --> 00:11:28,761
Speaker 2: them with not in so many words, that you'd be

229
00:11:28,761 --> 00:11:31,161
Speaker 2: better off to do this quickly because the next visit

230
00:11:31,281 --> 00:11:32,401
Speaker 2: might not be so pleasant.

231
00:11:33,201 --> 00:11:35,961
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly. And what he used to do.

232
00:11:36,241 --> 00:11:38,201
Speaker 4: And he taught me this because I've done a lot

233
00:11:38,201 --> 00:11:41,361
Speaker 4: of their collecting. He said, Mark, did you learn something there?

234
00:11:41,401 --> 00:11:43,441
Speaker 4: I said, oh, I did a little bit. I said,

235
00:11:43,441 --> 00:11:45,921
Speaker 4: you were very polite and everything. He said, Yeah, he said,

236
00:11:45,921 --> 00:11:47,921
Speaker 4: what you'd try and do with make them out that

237
00:11:47,961 --> 00:11:51,321
Speaker 4: you're doing them a favor because other people could come

238
00:11:51,361 --> 00:11:54,601
Speaker 4: and see you, whether it be bikey gangs or Italian

239
00:11:54,681 --> 00:11:57,041
Speaker 4: hit man or whatever. He says, I'm doing you a

240
00:11:57,081 --> 00:11:59,481
Speaker 4: favor here, and I'm being very polite and I'm asking

241
00:11:59,521 --> 00:12:02,201
Speaker 4: you to do this. But he's been saying it in

242
00:12:02,201 --> 00:12:06,401
Speaker 4: the way is like he's getting his message across. However, well,

243
00:12:06,401 --> 00:12:08,601
Speaker 4: he knew exactly what he was doing. He just knew

244
00:12:08,681 --> 00:12:10,321
Speaker 4: without even raising his voice.

245
00:12:10,441 --> 00:12:10,761
Speaker 1: He knew.

246
00:12:10,801 --> 00:12:13,761
Speaker 4: But his reputation did carry a hell of a lot

247
00:12:13,761 --> 00:12:15,921
Speaker 4: of weight, you know, this age.

248
00:12:15,961 --> 00:12:18,161
Speaker 1: If he was around now and tried that on with young.

249
00:12:17,921 --> 00:12:20,201
Speaker 4: People, I don't think it would work because they don't

250
00:12:20,241 --> 00:12:22,681
Speaker 4: know who he is a lot of people that are

251
00:12:22,681 --> 00:12:24,601
Speaker 4: young these days they don't know who Chopper is.

252
00:12:25,641 --> 00:12:27,601
Speaker 2: I think you're wrong there. I think Chop was becoming

253
00:12:27,601 --> 00:12:29,721
Speaker 2: the new ned Kelly. But that's another series we're doing

254
00:12:29,761 --> 00:12:31,961
Speaker 2: with you. But you were close to both of them,

255
00:12:32,161 --> 00:12:34,601
Speaker 2: and they also got on very well as well, I believe.

256
00:12:35,441 --> 00:12:38,041
Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe they had a couple of little TIFFs,

257
00:12:38,041 --> 00:12:38,961
Speaker 4: but sorted it out.

258
00:12:39,081 --> 00:12:42,041
Speaker 2: Yeah, what sort of TIFFs, Oh, just.

259
00:12:42,361 --> 00:12:45,641
Speaker 4: Arguments about different people who had passed away and that

260
00:12:45,721 --> 00:12:46,281
Speaker 4: sort of thing.

261
00:12:46,321 --> 00:12:47,961
Speaker 1: You know, what had happened?

262
00:12:48,001 --> 00:12:51,881
Speaker 4: How tall Neddie Smith was and how Chopper always insisted

263
00:12:51,881 --> 00:12:54,641
Speaker 4: that Neddie Smith was about five foot ten and Rogers

264
00:12:54,641 --> 00:12:55,801
Speaker 4: said he was six foot five.

265
00:12:56,641 --> 00:12:57,721
Speaker 1: I never met the bloke, but.

266
00:12:57,801 --> 00:13:01,601
Speaker 4: Going or photos against Graham Abbo Henry and Neddie and

267
00:13:01,681 --> 00:13:04,881
Speaker 4: myself with Graham Henry, I'm six foot one and a half.

268
00:13:05,121 --> 00:13:07,121
Speaker 1: I reckon Neddie Smith would about six foot three.

269
00:13:07,761 --> 00:13:11,921
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Mark Reid Chopper had a tendency to

270
00:13:12,121 --> 00:13:14,721
Speaker 2: diminish people, didn't he. I mean he liked to hang

271
00:13:14,721 --> 00:13:15,441
Speaker 2: a bit of shit on it.

272
00:13:16,121 --> 00:13:18,641
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, absolutely, especially you know if they were in

273
00:13:18,761 --> 00:13:22,841
Speaker 4: jail or they were dead or something like that. But yeah,

274
00:13:22,881 --> 00:13:25,201
Speaker 4: I think Neddie Smith would have been a real bloody handful,

275
00:13:25,241 --> 00:13:25,481
Speaker 4: to be.

276
00:13:25,401 --> 00:13:25,881
Speaker 1: Honest with you.

277
00:13:26,961 --> 00:13:29,241
Speaker 2: He was My dad was a psychiatrist and he used

278
00:13:29,241 --> 00:13:32,241
Speaker 2: to go and see Nettie Smith in jail. He found

279
00:13:32,321 --> 00:13:36,121
Speaker 2: him terrifying and remorseless a moral I mean, he could

280
00:13:36,121 --> 00:13:40,121
Speaker 2: well imagine obviously, in the aftermath of Warren land Franchi's killing,

281
00:13:40,761 --> 00:13:45,001
Speaker 2: Nettie is then tasked with strangling Sally Anne Huckstep, who

282
00:13:45,081 --> 00:13:47,681
Speaker 2: was making a lot of noise in the media, and

283
00:13:47,761 --> 00:13:50,841
Speaker 2: drowning her in a pond in Centennial Park. So that

284
00:13:51,001 --> 00:13:54,321
Speaker 2: was the stamp of Nettie Smith. So in those days,

285
00:13:54,961 --> 00:13:56,641
Speaker 2: things had to be done, and they were done, and

286
00:13:56,641 --> 00:13:59,241
Speaker 2: Neddie was the man for it. Did Roger talk about

287
00:13:59,241 --> 00:13:59,961
Speaker 2: Nettie much at all?

288
00:14:01,401 --> 00:14:02,281
Speaker 1: Yeah? He did.

289
00:14:02,761 --> 00:14:04,921
Speaker 4: He goes, you know, he'd be in a pub when

290
00:14:04,921 --> 00:14:07,641
Speaker 4: he was in his heyday when the flower Lady come

291
00:14:07,641 --> 00:14:10,321
Speaker 4: around here by every woman in the Bubba rose and

292
00:14:10,401 --> 00:14:13,281
Speaker 4: hand them out, and he said he was extremely charming.

293
00:14:13,401 --> 00:14:16,361
Speaker 4: He said women loved him. He had these big, long arms,

294
00:14:16,401 --> 00:14:19,321
Speaker 4: and he could lean out and fight from six foot

295
00:14:19,321 --> 00:14:22,441
Speaker 4: away and was a really good street fighter. But he

296
00:14:22,481 --> 00:14:24,761
Speaker 4: said to me that Graham Abbo Henry was twice a

297
00:14:24,801 --> 00:14:27,801
Speaker 4: street fighter, that Needdie Smith was. He reckons ambo pleany

298
00:14:27,881 --> 00:14:29,521
Speaker 4: but no problem at all.

299
00:14:29,721 --> 00:14:31,801
Speaker 2: Well, Graham will be very pleased to hear that. I

300
00:14:31,801 --> 00:14:33,841
Speaker 2: think he likes to trade on that reputation even to

301
00:14:33,881 --> 00:14:34,281
Speaker 2: this day.

302
00:14:34,561 --> 00:14:37,961
Speaker 4: I told Graham that that Roger said that, And I said,

303
00:14:38,001 --> 00:14:40,201
Speaker 4: the first time I met Roger, I was sitting on

304
00:14:40,241 --> 00:14:42,721
Speaker 4: the passenger side of that silver falcon that was used

305
00:14:42,761 --> 00:14:44,561
Speaker 4: in that murder there at Padstow.

306
00:14:45,201 --> 00:14:46,801
Speaker 1: He just picked me up from the airport. He said,

307
00:14:46,801 --> 00:14:48,481
Speaker 1: how do you think I'd go with Eddie Smith?

308
00:14:48,881 --> 00:14:52,601
Speaker 4: He says, I think he'd flog you, young fellow, fair

309
00:14:52,721 --> 00:14:53,481
Speaker 4: enough things.

310
00:14:53,241 --> 00:14:56,241
Speaker 2: For your honesty, because you'd had a couple of decades

311
00:14:56,241 --> 00:14:58,601
Speaker 2: of bouncing by this time. That's how you came into

312
00:14:58,641 --> 00:14:59,081
Speaker 2: the picture.

313
00:14:59,441 --> 00:15:00,161
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

314
00:15:00,281 --> 00:15:03,801
Speaker 4: I started bouncing in nine a ninety as a kid.

315
00:15:03,841 --> 00:15:04,881
Speaker 1: I was sixteen and ten.

316
00:15:05,801 --> 00:15:08,961
Speaker 4: I did twenty seven years of bouncing all up twenty

317
00:15:08,961 --> 00:15:10,761
Speaker 4: five years full time in a couple of years of

318
00:15:10,841 --> 00:15:13,481
Speaker 4: the casual to help out, and you throw in amongst

319
00:15:13,521 --> 00:15:17,241
Speaker 4: that bodyguarding and stuff like that, and oh fairly big career.

320
00:15:17,361 --> 00:15:21,721
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you weren't here journey seventy kilos when you started.

321
00:15:21,841 --> 00:15:22,841
Speaker 1: Well, you was a kid.

322
00:15:22,881 --> 00:15:24,961
Speaker 4: I was seventy kilo and I filled out to be

323
00:15:25,801 --> 00:15:28,881
Speaker 4: six one and one hundred. But and my peak of

324
00:15:29,161 --> 00:15:33,041
Speaker 4: security work, I was about eighty eight ninety kila where

325
00:15:33,041 --> 00:15:35,361
Speaker 4: I could move around pretty well and everything on fat now,

326
00:15:35,921 --> 00:15:38,641
Speaker 4: but about eighty eight kilo and six foot one and

327
00:15:38,681 --> 00:15:41,441
Speaker 4: trained every day and had a few ring fights, not

328
00:15:41,521 --> 00:15:42,761
Speaker 4: a hell of a lot, and there was no well

329
00:15:42,841 --> 00:15:43,881
Speaker 4: beat by any means.

330
00:15:44,281 --> 00:15:46,521
Speaker 1: But I'd had a hell of a lot of street fights.

331
00:15:46,801 --> 00:15:50,201
Speaker 2: Because you'd come from a private school background, all this

332
00:15:50,281 --> 00:15:52,961
Speaker 2: type of thing. How did you end up down this road?

333
00:15:53,881 --> 00:15:56,641
Speaker 1: Well, I had an accident when I was eight a

334
00:15:56,761 --> 00:15:57,561
Speaker 1: months of age.

335
00:15:57,801 --> 00:16:00,041
Speaker 4: I crawled off the veranda at my parents' place in

336
00:16:00,081 --> 00:16:03,161
Speaker 4: the northern suburb of Brisbane called Asphley. I crawled over

337
00:16:03,201 --> 00:16:05,801
Speaker 4: a railing and fell once stone already down onto the

338
00:16:05,841 --> 00:16:10,601
Speaker 4: concrete driveway. I suffered epileptic seizures after that until I

339
00:16:10,641 --> 00:16:14,521
Speaker 4: was about fifteen medicated and everything like that with a

340
00:16:14,561 --> 00:16:18,601
Speaker 4: powerful drug called di lantern, and dial Antern's actually not

341
00:16:18,881 --> 00:16:21,241
Speaker 4: meant to be used anymore these days. And it was

342
00:16:21,281 --> 00:16:23,721
Speaker 4: a pink liquid that I used to drink. It was

343
00:16:23,961 --> 00:16:28,441
Speaker 4: very powerful. Turned into a zombie. So my informative years

344
00:16:28,601 --> 00:16:32,441
Speaker 4: at school, I couldn't study anything because the drug turns

345
00:16:32,481 --> 00:16:35,601
Speaker 4: into a bloody zombie. And I sort of could handle

346
00:16:35,601 --> 00:16:37,641
Speaker 4: myself a bit and been in boxing gyms with my

347
00:16:37,721 --> 00:16:41,081
Speaker 4: uncle or since I was about six, and I thought, well,

348
00:16:41,121 --> 00:16:43,041
Speaker 4: I'll turn my hand to this because all of these

349
00:16:43,081 --> 00:16:45,281
Speaker 4: people love these bounces back in that day and age,

350
00:16:45,281 --> 00:16:48,241
Speaker 4: they loved them. And I thought, oh, the girls and everything,

351
00:16:48,281 --> 00:16:52,721
Speaker 4: I'll get into this. And I did, all right, Yeah,

352
00:16:52,881 --> 00:16:55,401
Speaker 4: it's funny. It's funny you should mention epilepsy.

353
00:16:55,401 --> 00:16:57,761
Speaker 2: And I had the same experience when I was about

354
00:16:57,761 --> 00:17:01,481
Speaker 2: eleven and I was running along the footpath outside my

355
00:17:01,481 --> 00:17:04,241
Speaker 2: grandmother's house carrying a sleeping bag and I stepped on

356
00:17:04,281 --> 00:17:07,001
Speaker 2: the sleeping bag hit the deck hard on the head.

357
00:17:07,321 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 2: About a year later, I had one grand mile epileptic

358
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,001
Speaker 2: fit and I was supposed to be on die lantern

359
00:17:13,041 --> 00:17:15,481
Speaker 2: for a couple of years. Same experience tamed me into

360
00:17:15,481 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 2: a zombie. So I said, stuff, I'm stopping taking it.

361
00:17:18,681 --> 00:17:20,801
Speaker 2: I couldn't stand it. When I went back to the

362
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,001
Speaker 2: doctor eight en months later, I confessed that one was wild.

363
00:17:24,041 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 2: She said, what are you doing?

364
00:17:24,921 --> 00:17:25,400
Speaker 1: Would you know?

365
00:17:25,481 --> 00:17:27,481
Speaker 2: You take the bill and the docks had listened. That

366
00:17:27,521 --> 00:17:29,281
Speaker 2: was the best thing you could have done. I wouldn't

367
00:17:29,281 --> 00:17:31,761
Speaker 2: have advised it, but clearly yours was a one off,

368
00:17:32,001 --> 00:17:33,680
Speaker 2: but you suffered it quite consistently.

369
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,360
Speaker 1: Early had a few big episodes with it, but it

370
00:17:37,441 --> 00:17:37,801
Speaker 1: was there.

371
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 4: If they didn't treat it with the dire lantern, it

372
00:17:40,441 --> 00:17:42,801
Speaker 4: would happen all the time. I didn't have a fit

373
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 4: where you like that. I had a fit where you

374
00:17:45,681 --> 00:17:48,440
Speaker 4: just stare it like your left I'd go up that

375
00:17:48,481 --> 00:17:50,201
Speaker 4: way and just stay and you didn't.

376
00:17:49,921 --> 00:17:52,641
Speaker 1: Know what was going on. You couldn't hold anything or

377
00:17:52,681 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 1: do anything like that.

378
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,120
Speaker 4: They were called focal seizures, but they would last a

379
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,281
Speaker 4: fair while, and at one point there one was that bad.

380
00:18:00,321 --> 00:18:03,281
Speaker 4: One time my mother said I stopped breathing for about

381
00:18:03,281 --> 00:18:06,360
Speaker 4: three minutes with one of them. Was a bad, bad thing.

382
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,041
Speaker 4: So my informative years were wasted with this drug. But

383
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,160
Speaker 4: I had to have it, believe it. I look the

384
00:18:13,281 --> 00:18:16,001
Speaker 4: doctor who was treating me. His name is doctor Appleton.

385
00:18:16,521 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 4: They had done scans and stuff, and he said I

386
00:18:19,041 --> 00:18:24,600
Speaker 4: was born with an extremely thick skull, an abnormally thick skull,

387
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,601
Speaker 4: which probably saved my life. But yeah, I grew out

388
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,201
Speaker 4: of it at about fifteen and then I got better.

389
00:18:31,721 --> 00:18:34,880
Speaker 4: But yeah, very very powerful drug. And mate, you just

390
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 4: you don't even know where the moods are there. You

391
00:18:37,481 --> 00:18:39,880
Speaker 4: don't even know what mood you're in. Yeah, I was

392
00:18:39,961 --> 00:18:42,321
Speaker 4: lucky to survive it. That's how it goes to your

393
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,201
Speaker 4: question of I had I end up doing what I did?

394
00:18:44,241 --> 00:18:44,441
Speaker 1: Well.

395
00:18:45,041 --> 00:18:48,241
Speaker 4: My uncle was a pro fighter and I fancied myself

396
00:18:48,241 --> 00:18:51,201
Speaker 4: a bit when I was young. Anyway, I got into

397
00:18:51,241 --> 00:18:54,600
Speaker 4: bouncing through people that I knew and it went from there.

398
00:18:54,681 --> 00:18:58,561
Speaker 4: And really, if that accident hadn't happened with epilepsy, I

399
00:18:58,561 --> 00:18:59,481
Speaker 4: wouldn't be here now.

400
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,041
Speaker 1: I would be a solicitor or an accountant or.

401
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,200
Speaker 4: Something like that, rather than being looking at I have

402
00:19:05,201 --> 00:19:07,201
Speaker 4: to chop a read Roger Rogerson.

403
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:11,281
Speaker 2: Roger, you really formed a close relationship with Roger. We've

404
00:19:11,281 --> 00:19:14,241
Speaker 2: said that, and over time he told you more things

405
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 2: which I think we can talk about now. Some of

406
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,120
Speaker 2: them are a bit sensitive, but I think at the

407
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,561
Speaker 2: passenger try most of the main players are dead. What

408
00:19:20,681 --> 00:19:21,880
Speaker 2: sort of things did he share with you.

409
00:19:22,521 --> 00:19:25,561
Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about a very famous case or infamous

410
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,561
Speaker 4: I should say, the nineteen seventy three fire bombing of

411
00:19:29,561 --> 00:19:33,561
Speaker 4: a nightclub in Brisbane called the Whiskey or geoge tragic thing.

412
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,601
Speaker 4: Fifteen people dead, a lot of people injured, stuff like that,

413
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,240
Speaker 4: very notorious case. Anyway, at the time, Roger was an

414
00:19:40,281 --> 00:19:43,321
Speaker 4: up and coming detective well probably pretty well known by then,

415
00:19:44,001 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 4: and he was flying to Brisbane with Noel Morey Tager

416
00:19:48,281 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 4: I forget his name, the detective that he was senior.

417
00:19:51,041 --> 00:19:53,561
Speaker 1: He's dead now he would be ninety five of beers alive.

418
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,041
Speaker 4: He was sent up with Roger to investigate this thing

419
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 4: because they believed at the time they were Sydney criminals

420
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 4: that had done this, starting up a protection racket. Roger

421
00:20:03,561 --> 00:20:09,200
Speaker 4: had pinched these two other criminals, Jimmy Finch and James Stewart.

422
00:20:09,041 --> 00:20:11,400
Speaker 2: Actually the other way around, John Stewart and James Finch.

423
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it.

424
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,361
Speaker 4: And years later, you know this has gone back. You've

425
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 4: got to remember that this happened there. I think it

426
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 4: was March nineteen seventy three. I was born July nineteen

427
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,321
Speaker 4: seventy three, so I wasn't even born when this happened.

428
00:20:24,681 --> 00:20:26,920
Speaker 4: Roger said to me one night, I was asking him

429
00:20:26,961 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 4: about the case, why he was brought up and everything.

430
00:20:28,961 --> 00:20:32,281
Speaker 4: He said, well, at the time, my confessions with people

431
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,281
Speaker 4: or written statements carried a lot of weight. And he said,

432
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:37,121
Speaker 4: I'm here to tell you that those two blokes never

433
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:37,400
Speaker 4: did it.

434
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:38,001
Speaker 1: They're innocent.

435
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 4: Anyway, he says two other fellas, one happened to be

436
00:20:41,681 --> 00:20:45,801
Speaker 4: a licensing detective and another heavy crimson from Sydney. He

437
00:20:45,921 --> 00:20:50,241
Speaker 4: did let on that the detective from Brisbane, well from

438
00:20:50,241 --> 00:20:53,921
Speaker 4: Brisbane basically, but he never told me any names with that.

439
00:20:54,561 --> 00:20:56,561
Speaker 4: He just led on that that's what had happened. He said,

440
00:20:56,561 --> 00:20:59,961
Speaker 4: he basically had given a brief of evidence that was unsigned.

441
00:20:59,961 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 4: And they are confession by these two blokes, And he

442
00:21:03,761 --> 00:21:07,561
Speaker 4: said they are innocent. They went to jail, so he's

443
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,241
Speaker 4: their reason for climbing on the roof of Bloody Bogo

444
00:21:10,321 --> 00:21:13,001
Speaker 4: roade jail or swallowing staples and doing all sorts of

445
00:21:13,001 --> 00:21:18,041
Speaker 4: things that I protest Hunger stripes. And because well what

446
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 4: he told me that night, I truly believe it.

447
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,721
Speaker 1: I don't think they did it. I think he wrote

448
00:21:21,761 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: them up.

449
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:23,961
Speaker 2: You think Roger did.

450
00:21:24,521 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Roger did that or ninety.

451
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 2: Percent of it anyway, Yeah, because they had an in

452
00:21:29,561 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: quest in twenty twenty one and Roger had been in

453
00:21:31,961 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 2: jail for about seven years, and I think they wanted

454
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 2: him to give evidence in it. I'm not sure if

455
00:21:35,921 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 2: he did or not.

456
00:21:37,241 --> 00:21:40,761
Speaker 1: No, he didn't. He refused all of that well to

457
00:21:40,801 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: come up to Brisbane. Anyway. I could have come forward

458
00:21:43,441 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 1: then and said something, but I wouldn't have done that.

459
00:21:46,281 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 1: But now he's dead, I can say he told me.

460
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 4: Otherwise, it wasn't those two blokes convicted. It was different people.

461
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 2: There you go, and then you also had something to

462
00:21:55,681 --> 00:21:57,201
Speaker 2: say about Donald McKay as well.

463
00:21:58,001 --> 00:22:00,881
Speaker 1: Well. He didn't let on much about that for years

464
00:22:00,961 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: to me.

465
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,281
Speaker 4: And one day when I was working up in Gladston,

466
00:22:04,281 --> 00:22:06,201
Speaker 4: I was on my way up to Gladston, from Brisbane

467
00:22:06,241 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 4: to Gladston, I pulled up in a town called GIMPI.

468
00:22:09,441 --> 00:22:11,561
Speaker 4: I was in the red roost of buying some food

469
00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 4: and on the TV here it pops up. There's about

470
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,001
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen they were doing a search for Don McKay's

471
00:22:18,001 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 4: body on a property down there.

472
00:22:19,561 --> 00:22:22,681
Speaker 1: Nig Griffith. Anyway, I wrung him up. I said, I.

473
00:22:22,721 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 4: See that they're looking for Don McKay there, and he

474
00:22:26,001 --> 00:22:27,721
Speaker 4: said to me Mark, he said, they can dig all

475
00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:28,121
Speaker 4: they want.

476
00:22:28,281 --> 00:22:29,281
Speaker 1: He said, they won't find it.

477
00:22:29,281 --> 00:22:32,281
Speaker 4: They're looking in the wrong state for a start, I said,

478
00:22:32,281 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 4: oh really, and he said, well.

479
00:22:34,441 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: The cane farmers of North Queensland and the Great Rows

480
00:22:37,801 --> 00:22:41,961
Speaker 1: down there and near Griffith had a close relationship.

481
00:22:42,001 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 4: He said, just put it that way, he said, but

482
00:22:44,761 --> 00:22:46,041
Speaker 4: they're looking in the wrong state.

483
00:22:47,041 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 2: So was he hinting that McKay's body was actually up

484
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:50,761
Speaker 2: in Queensland?

485
00:22:50,761 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: Then? Well?

486
00:22:52,521 --> 00:22:54,281
Speaker 4: I did ask him about it a bit later on

487
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:56,360
Speaker 4: after that. He said, what do they do with sugar

488
00:22:56,441 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 4: cane every.

489
00:22:57,201 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 1: Season in Queensland? I said, they burn it off?

490
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:01,681
Speaker 4: He said, so, what do you think it'd be now

491
00:23:01,761 --> 00:23:04,481
Speaker 4: after forty five years or whatever it was at the time.

492
00:23:04,561 --> 00:23:07,521
Speaker 1: Forty years? Said probably, as he said, well there he go.

493
00:23:08,921 --> 00:23:11,561
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had a lot of connections.

494
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 4: Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but that's

495
00:23:14,721 --> 00:23:16,961
Speaker 4: just what he told me a lot of the time.

496
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,961
Speaker 1: I think he was getting some stuff off his chest.

497
00:23:19,761 --> 00:23:22,401
Speaker 2: Yeah. I wish you'd stayed awake more in the night

498
00:23:22,441 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 2: and got more of his you know, sleep talking. You

499
00:23:25,001 --> 00:23:27,281
Speaker 2: might have solved a few more murders and things. Who knows.

500
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,681
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

501
00:23:28,961 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 4: He just basically he just said, mate, they're looking in

502
00:23:33,441 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 4: the wrong state. And when he first said that to

503
00:23:35,521 --> 00:23:37,801
Speaker 4: me that day, when I rung, I said they're looking

504
00:23:37,801 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 4: for him, and he just said, you know, I see that.

505
00:23:39,441 --> 00:23:41,481
Speaker 1: He said they're looking in the wrong state. I took

506
00:23:41,521 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: it as pretty serious.

507
00:23:43,281 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you could. I think you could. Indeed

508
00:23:46,241 --> 00:23:49,041
Speaker 2: a little bit cryptic, but I think nonetheless he had knowledge,

509
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 2: he had connections, and Roger would make it his business

510
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: to find these things out, isn't You also had an

511
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,321
Speaker 2: interesting interlude where you worked with Roger and Roberta Williams

512
00:23:59,481 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: of Melbourne Gangland War fame. What was that like?

513
00:24:03,201 --> 00:24:03,961
Speaker 1: It was interesting.

514
00:24:04,041 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 3: You know.

515
00:24:04,521 --> 00:24:08,361
Speaker 4: Roberta's quite the character, married to Carl Williams for a long.

516
00:24:08,201 --> 00:24:10,801
Speaker 1: Time and very notorious.

517
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,321
Speaker 4: I think Roberta's got her hard side to her. She's

518
00:24:14,321 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 4: a hard lady, but I think that she could be

519
00:24:16,241 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 4: very caring and understanding it other times too. Roger suggested

520
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 4: to me that we take her on tour because I

521
00:24:22,201 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 4: was only getting into public speaking back then. He said

522
00:24:25,321 --> 00:24:27,561
Speaker 4: it might add a bit more culture to the thing

523
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,801
Speaker 4: rather than just relying on Roger to draw a crowd.

524
00:24:30,201 --> 00:24:33,001
Speaker 4: And it was just when Underbelly had come out, so

525
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:34,921
Speaker 4: Roberta was a pretty big name.

526
00:24:34,961 --> 00:24:36,001
Speaker 1: She was a household name.

527
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,281
Speaker 4: And anyway, we took up to Innes Park golf Club,

528
00:24:39,281 --> 00:24:41,921
Speaker 4: which is near Bunderberg in Queensland for the first one

529
00:24:42,001 --> 00:24:44,201
Speaker 4: and I said, Roberta, how much of this have you done?

530
00:24:44,201 --> 00:24:46,561
Speaker 1: And she said no first time. I said, well, all right.

531
00:24:47,481 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 4: Anyway, we picked her up at the airport in a

532
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 4: borrowed limousine and Roger was driving and he had the

533
00:24:52,441 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 4: chauffeur's cap on, which he thought was very funny, picked

534
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,081
Speaker 4: her up, drove her back to the hotel. We had

535
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,281
Speaker 4: a big room there and everything, and I said, Roberta,

536
00:25:00,521 --> 00:25:03,961
Speaker 4: apart from me being the MC, I'll sit beside you

537
00:25:04,241 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 4: and just see you through it. I'll give you a

538
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,561
Speaker 4: few questions and you can talk about it, and when

539
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 4: you start slipping up, I'll shoot another question at you.

540
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 4: And she actually did very well. I've got the footage

541
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 4: of it, the whole footage. She spoke for about thirty

542
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 4: minutes at least, and she did very very well.

543
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:20,241
Speaker 1: For her first time.

544
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 4: And we made a little bit of money out of it,

545
00:25:22,761 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 4: not as much as what she'd like, but she did

546
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: all right, you know, but robert is quite interesting, you know,

547
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,801
Speaker 4: and she's wrung me up one day.

548
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,241
Speaker 1: This is years ago, and she.

549
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 4: Said, Mark, she said, do you want to do a

550
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 4: boxing promotion together? And I said, yeah, what have you

551
00:25:37,481 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 4: got in mind? She said, well, how about you have

552
00:25:39,921 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 4: a few fights there, a few different fighters, and then

553
00:25:42,721 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 4: I'll be the main event and I'll fight the lady

554
00:25:44,681 --> 00:25:48,681
Speaker 4: who played me in Underbelly. Oh ah, I said, yeah,

555
00:25:48,681 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 4: that's a very interesting, great idea. I said, but how

556
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,241
Speaker 4: about this. I said, how about we get Chappelle Colby

557
00:25:54,481 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 4: here and you can fight Chappelle Colby.

558
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,321
Speaker 1: That would draw some publicity. And she said, oh, do

559
00:26:00,321 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: you reckon? I can win?

560
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,761
Speaker 4: I said, I'm sure you'll win. Roberta. Roberta's got a

561
00:26:04,801 --> 00:26:06,041
Speaker 4: bit of fire in a belly.

562
00:26:06,321 --> 00:26:09,401
Speaker 2: No, she does. I mean Cat Stewart, who played Roberta

563
00:26:09,441 --> 00:26:11,561
Speaker 2: in underbel I don't think she couldn't punch a hole

564
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,761
Speaker 2: in a wet tissue box. But Chappelle, Yeah, it might

565
00:26:15,801 --> 00:26:17,561
Speaker 2: be a fair fight, but I'd still back Roberta.

566
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,721
Speaker 1: I'd back Roberta every day of the week with Roger.

567
00:26:20,761 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: That I mean, I've got a soft spot for Roberta

568
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 2: as well. And we go back twenty years to the

569
00:26:24,921 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: gang lame were and so forth, and I think she'd

570
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,441
Speaker 2: probably agree with me when I say that she's got

571
00:26:29,441 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 2: a temper. And then she and Roger did have a

572
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:33,281
Speaker 2: bit of a falling out.

573
00:26:34,041 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Roger, he was clean the place, fanatic, even a

574
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:38,761
Speaker 4: hotel room.

575
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,641
Speaker 1: He liked everything clean. That's the copper coming out of him.

576
00:26:41,921 --> 00:26:44,961
Speaker 4: And anyway, Roberta and myself had been up the road

577
00:26:45,001 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 4: to grab some fish and chips and a couple of

578
00:26:46,961 --> 00:26:50,041
Speaker 4: burgers and everything like that, because it's just a big pennhouse.

579
00:26:50,441 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 4: And Roger had really cleaned the coffee table and the

580
00:26:53,681 --> 00:26:56,561
Speaker 4: lounge and that really well spotless, even though it wasn't

581
00:26:56,561 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 4: he placed to do that. Cleaner could have done it. Anyway,

582
00:26:59,561 --> 00:27:02,041
Speaker 4: Roberta come back, sat in the lounge, put a feet

583
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,001
Speaker 4: up on the coffee table, had a hamburger and a

584
00:27:04,001 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 4: few chips, left the wrapper on the bloody on the

585
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 4: coffee table.

586
00:27:07,921 --> 00:27:09,761
Speaker 1: She had the main bedroom, went off into the main

587
00:27:09,761 --> 00:27:10,321
Speaker 1: bedroom to.

588
00:27:10,241 --> 00:27:14,321
Speaker 4: Have a shower and Rogers, yeah, look at this fucking rat.

589
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: I just cleaned this.

590
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 4: You had the fucking dirty, fucking rat and everything like this.

591
00:27:18,961 --> 00:27:21,681
Speaker 4: You know, he's this grubbing and cleaning and everything got it.

592
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,161
Speaker 1: Back in order.

593
00:27:22,201 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 4: But I think they had a bit of an argument

594
00:27:23,921 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 4: about that's just when the GFC hit and not a

595
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,001
Speaker 4: lot of people had ready cash to buy memorabiliair and stuff.

596
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,041
Speaker 4: And I think Roberta thought she's going to make ten

597
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,881
Speaker 4: grand a night or something, and she didn't, and unfortunately,

598
00:27:35,921 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 4: because I only lost my ear drum because of it.

599
00:27:38,201 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 4: And Roger said to her calm down and sort of

600
00:27:41,441 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 4: pulled her in the line. But it was Roger's idea

601
00:27:43,681 --> 00:27:46,081
Speaker 4: to bring her along because she's fresh in the thing

602
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,561
Speaker 4: with underbelly, which was a good idea. But look, she's

603
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,321
Speaker 4: got a great points tough. She's really nice lady's at times, so.

604
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,281
Speaker 2: That some of our enemies might not agree, but that's

605
00:27:56,281 --> 00:27:58,761
Speaker 2: fair enough, I think, going listen, I think she's a survivor,

606
00:27:59,321 --> 00:28:03,481
Speaker 2: and so was Roger. Roger was a survivor, and it's

607
00:28:03,521 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: always amazed me that he got involved with Glenn McNamara

608
00:28:08,681 --> 00:28:11,761
Speaker 2: in that drug rip off of Jamie gow. You know,

609
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: I've been speaking to Roger some weeks before this had happened.

610
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: We were talking about Christopher Dale Flannery. How Flannery's downfall

611
00:28:18,961 --> 00:28:22,321
Speaker 2: was that he was a barrier of bodies and that

612
00:28:22,521 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: he said, there's no need to ever bury your body

613
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: on the land when you had the ocean open to you.

614
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 2: And of course that's kind of what happened with Jamie

615
00:28:30,441 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: gow And I can't help but think that McNamara must

616
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,481
Speaker 2: have been in charge of the disposal, because the way

617
00:28:36,521 --> 00:28:40,521
Speaker 2: that gau was disposed. Sorry to the listeners here, you

618
00:28:40,561 --> 00:28:42,881
Speaker 2: know week's stomachs. But Roger said to me back in

619
00:28:42,881 --> 00:28:44,281
Speaker 2: that call, he said, well, what you got to do

620
00:28:44,361 --> 00:28:47,081
Speaker 2: is you got to open up the stomach cavity so

621
00:28:47,201 --> 00:28:51,241
Speaker 2: all the gases disappear and then the body won't bloat

622
00:28:51,361 --> 00:28:53,841
Speaker 2: and come back to the surface again. And of course

623
00:28:54,481 --> 00:28:56,921
Speaker 2: they didn't do that, or at least whoever did the

624
00:28:56,961 --> 00:29:00,161
Speaker 2: disposal didn't do that, and Jamie Gow's body floated up

625
00:29:00,161 --> 00:29:02,081
Speaker 2: with the surface on the end of an anchor chain

626
00:29:02,441 --> 00:29:06,201
Speaker 2: that he was put down there with. All this was happening,

627
00:29:06,561 --> 00:29:08,481
Speaker 2: we have to go back to the chronology, I guess.

628
00:29:08,481 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: But May twenty twenty fourteen is when McNamara and Roger

629
00:29:13,041 --> 00:29:16,361
Speaker 2: meet Jamie Gowett the storage unit and they murder him.

630
00:29:16,361 --> 00:29:20,121
Speaker 2: There and they steal two point seven kilos of ice.

631
00:29:20,721 --> 00:29:23,721
Speaker 2: And I guess at this time, Roger thinks he's free

632
00:29:23,721 --> 00:29:26,881
Speaker 2: and clear. He's got an arrangement to come and meet you.

633
00:29:26,961 --> 00:29:30,601
Speaker 1: What happened, well, I invited him up.

634
00:29:30,881 --> 00:29:33,321
Speaker 4: It would have been the week before because I had

635
00:29:33,361 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 4: an interclub boxing tournament going on at my boxing gym,

636
00:29:37,601 --> 00:29:40,321
Speaker 4: so my gym versus a couple others that were there,

637
00:29:40,561 --> 00:29:43,161
Speaker 4: and I invited him up as a drawcard for people

638
00:29:43,201 --> 00:29:45,601
Speaker 4: to come and meet him. And I paid for his

639
00:29:45,681 --> 00:29:48,881
Speaker 4: plane tickets all of that, and we were having seafood

640
00:29:48,961 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 4: and beers and everything, and I said, bring some books.

641
00:29:51,761 --> 00:29:54,841
Speaker 1: You can sell a few books as well. Mate.

642
00:29:54,881 --> 00:29:56,641
Speaker 4: He did that on the Tuesday, I think was the

643
00:29:56,681 --> 00:29:59,681
Speaker 4: twentieth by memory, but he was up here in Queensland.

644
00:29:59,721 --> 00:30:00,961
Speaker 1: I think my uncle picked him.

645
00:30:00,921 --> 00:30:04,401
Speaker 4: Up at the airport on the Friday, and then the

646
00:30:04,441 --> 00:30:07,081
Speaker 4: Saturday with my uncle, and the Sunday was when we

647
00:30:07,161 --> 00:30:09,881
Speaker 4: had the thing at the boxing gym. Because I'd just

648
00:30:09,881 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 4: gotten back from Gladstone and my partner had set up

649
00:30:12,761 --> 00:30:15,921
Speaker 4: the gym ready for a show. You couldn't tell that

650
00:30:16,041 --> 00:30:17,841
Speaker 4: he had done what he had done earlier in the week.

651
00:30:17,881 --> 00:30:20,801
Speaker 4: You could not tell he was that poker faced and cold.

652
00:30:21,321 --> 00:30:24,881
Speaker 4: He was just acting normal basically, and you couldn't tell

653
00:30:25,001 --> 00:30:27,281
Speaker 4: what he'd been involved. And then Sunday night, after the

654
00:30:27,321 --> 00:30:30,201
Speaker 4: show at the fights back at my uncle's place under

655
00:30:30,241 --> 00:30:33,321
Speaker 4: the Tree of Knowledge, about seven o'clock, you know, everyone's

656
00:30:33,321 --> 00:30:35,841
Speaker 4: got a gutfull of wine and beer or whatever, and

657
00:30:35,961 --> 00:30:40,401
Speaker 4: he took a phone call. It was Anne, his wife, yeah,

658
00:30:40,641 --> 00:30:42,321
Speaker 4: saying that the house was being raided.

659
00:30:43,401 --> 00:30:45,161
Speaker 1: It could have been by Paul Kenny as well.

660
00:30:45,161 --> 00:30:47,081
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I believe it was Anne ringing

661
00:30:47,161 --> 00:30:49,241
Speaker 4: him saying, what's going on the house has been raided

662
00:30:49,441 --> 00:30:50,841
Speaker 4: and they're taking your car away.

663
00:30:51,321 --> 00:30:53,441
Speaker 1: Well, he didn't tell any of us at that stage.

664
00:30:53,481 --> 00:30:56,041
Speaker 4: He just went a bit quiet for a minute and

665
00:30:56,241 --> 00:30:58,841
Speaker 4: had a couple more beers and was back to normal,

666
00:30:58,881 --> 00:30:59,601
Speaker 4: and then he said.

667
00:30:59,441 --> 00:31:00,601
Speaker 1: Look, I'm going to bed Fellers.

668
00:31:01,241 --> 00:31:05,281
Speaker 2: He'd been perfectly happy those days. He was with you normal.

669
00:31:05,921 --> 00:31:07,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, very very normal.

670
00:31:08,121 --> 00:31:10,441
Speaker 4: I couldn't tell that was anything wrong, and I knew

671
00:31:10,521 --> 00:31:14,201
Speaker 4: him pretty well, you know, like he just you never

672
00:31:14,201 --> 00:31:14,881
Speaker 4: would have picked it.

673
00:31:16,601 --> 00:31:18,801
Speaker 2: I guess he would have been happy because he and

674
00:31:18,881 --> 00:31:22,081
Speaker 2: McNamara were sitting on about I don't know, about a

675
00:31:22,081 --> 00:31:25,761
Speaker 2: million dollars worth of ice now nearly three kilos of ice,

676
00:31:26,241 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: and so I guess you're thinking all his financial problems

677
00:31:28,561 --> 00:31:28,921
Speaker 2: are over.

678
00:31:29,321 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: But he would have been thinking that.

679
00:31:30,841 --> 00:31:32,441
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the way it was done, people

680
00:31:32,521 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: often say, oh, how could Roger have been caught, and

681
00:31:35,281 --> 00:31:36,921
Speaker 2: it was sort of bad luck that he was caught.

682
00:31:36,961 --> 00:31:38,801
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know the young but it

683
00:31:38,841 --> 00:31:42,561
Speaker 2: was only the fact that Roger's car and McNamara's car

684
00:31:42,601 --> 00:31:46,601
Speaker 2: were picked up near the storage unit where Jamie Gower

685
00:31:46,681 --> 00:31:49,801
Speaker 2: met them. There was another police operation underway on something

686
00:31:49,801 --> 00:31:52,121
Speaker 2: else at the time, and they picked up Roger's car

687
00:31:52,681 --> 00:31:55,761
Speaker 2: and they put it together with Jamie Gow's friends are saying, well,

688
00:31:56,081 --> 00:31:58,801
Speaker 2: Jamie GOUI supposed to go and meet Glenn McNamara. He

689
00:31:58,841 --> 00:32:01,641
Speaker 2: hasn't turned up. So they start putting it together and

690
00:32:01,681 --> 00:32:04,921
Speaker 2: they work out and they follow the CCTV cameras all

691
00:32:04,921 --> 00:32:07,281
Speaker 2: the way to the storage unit, and as you've seen

692
00:32:07,321 --> 00:32:11,121
Speaker 2: the footage, of course, there's McNamara drives up, he smuggles

693
00:32:11,321 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: go into the unit. Roger drives up not that long afterwards.

694
00:32:15,121 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: You see him waddling in there and he's only in

695
00:32:17,521 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: there for a few minutes and he comes out. But

696
00:32:19,161 --> 00:32:21,241
Speaker 2: people say, well, how could he have done it under

697
00:32:21,281 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: the CCTV cameras, must be so stupid. But when I

698
00:32:24,361 --> 00:32:27,241
Speaker 2: checked with the management of the storage place, they said, oh,

699
00:32:27,481 --> 00:32:30,161
Speaker 2: the cameras cycle every week, so unless you knew what

700
00:32:30,241 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: you were looking for, it would have been erased. And

701
00:32:33,241 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: it was just unfortunate for Roger and fortunate for the

702
00:32:36,481 --> 00:32:39,321
Speaker 2: police that they managed to get the footage before it

703
00:32:39,361 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: was a race, which was so damning. And that was

704
00:32:41,561 --> 00:32:43,441
Speaker 2: the end of it. And the other thing to remember

705
00:32:43,561 --> 00:32:48,361
Speaker 2: is that the drugs were in McNamara's vehicle underneath his

706
00:32:48,601 --> 00:32:51,161
Speaker 2: unit there, and the idea was that a tow truck

707
00:32:51,241 --> 00:32:54,041
Speaker 2: driver would come in tow the car away to a

708
00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:56,921
Speaker 2: wrecking yard. A third party would come and take the

709
00:32:56,961 --> 00:32:59,281
Speaker 2: drugs out of the car. So there was a quite

710
00:32:59,281 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 2: well planned scenario, but it all came undone with the

711
00:33:02,001 --> 00:33:05,841
Speaker 2: CCTV cameras. And so I think, while he's with you,

712
00:33:06,161 --> 00:33:08,721
Speaker 2: he's probably feeling pretty confident this has all gone pretty well.

713
00:33:09,361 --> 00:33:12,801
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'd say so, yes. Really, he didn't let

714
00:33:12,841 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 4: on anything. He was acting very normal, just like Roger

715
00:33:16,561 --> 00:33:19,281
Speaker 4: was always being until that call. Then he went quiet

716
00:33:19,281 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 4: and he said he was going to bed, and I

717
00:33:21,321 --> 00:33:23,441
Speaker 4: went home to my place, which is only five hundred

718
00:33:23,481 --> 00:33:26,161
Speaker 4: meters up the street. You've been there, you know, and

719
00:33:26,521 --> 00:33:28,681
Speaker 4: get up in the morning. I woke up at about

720
00:33:28,721 --> 00:33:31,641
Speaker 4: eight o'clock, turned the TV on Channel nine News. It's

721
00:33:31,681 --> 00:33:34,161
Speaker 4: the biggest news in Australia at the time.

722
00:33:34,441 --> 00:33:34,801
Speaker 1: My uncle.

723
00:33:34,841 --> 00:33:36,641
Speaker 4: Let I assume my uncle on the TV down at

724
00:33:36,681 --> 00:33:38,801
Speaker 4: the gym, saying, well, I don't know what's going on.

725
00:33:38,881 --> 00:33:42,041
Speaker 4: He's just wasn't here. Then it comes out pretty quickly.

726
00:33:42,521 --> 00:33:44,601
Speaker 4: You just think, Jesus, what's he been involved? And then

727
00:33:44,681 --> 00:33:46,761
Speaker 4: I started thinking, you know, he had a couple of

728
00:33:46,761 --> 00:33:47,921
Speaker 4: mini strokes and everything.

729
00:33:47,961 --> 00:33:51,241
Speaker 1: Maybe he wasn't thinking right and he's got himself pinched, and.

730
00:33:50,921 --> 00:33:53,561
Speaker 4: All sorts of things were going through my head. Anyway,

731
00:33:53,561 --> 00:33:54,961
Speaker 4: he rings that afternoon on.

732
00:33:54,881 --> 00:33:57,681
Speaker 1: The Monday afternoon and he said.

733
00:33:57,521 --> 00:33:59,201
Speaker 4: To me, oh, how are you going. He didn't tell

734
00:33:59,241 --> 00:34:01,161
Speaker 4: me where he was. He just rung off another number

735
00:34:01,281 --> 00:34:03,761
Speaker 4: and I said, Roger, there's coppers sitting off my gym.

736
00:34:03,961 --> 00:34:05,681
Speaker 4: He goes, mate, I think they're going to charge me,

737
00:34:06,081 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 4: and boy, then I knew it was a murder charge

738
00:34:08,041 --> 00:34:10,961
Speaker 4: because of the TV. It just st all fell apart

739
00:34:10,961 --> 00:34:12,721
Speaker 4: from them. But that's the last words he said to me.

740
00:34:12,921 --> 00:34:14,601
Speaker 1: Was made. I think they're going to charge me, and

741
00:34:14,641 --> 00:34:19,721
Speaker 1: then basically it was really weird. Then the big couple.

742
00:34:19,881 --> 00:34:22,161
Speaker 4: There was one tall detective from down in New South

743
00:34:22,161 --> 00:34:25,361
Speaker 4: Wales turned up that night. He's big fee bit taller

744
00:34:25,401 --> 00:34:27,481
Speaker 4: than me and he just walked straight up to the

745
00:34:27,481 --> 00:34:29,401
Speaker 4: door of the gym. He said, hey, Mark, and he

746
00:34:29,441 --> 00:34:32,321
Speaker 4: actually shook my hand. He said, where's Roger And I said,

747
00:34:32,481 --> 00:34:33,841
Speaker 4: you're about twelve hours too late.

748
00:34:34,001 --> 00:34:34,601
Speaker 1: He's not here.

749
00:34:35,161 --> 00:34:37,601
Speaker 4: And then he said, where's Banger, which is my uncle

750
00:34:38,241 --> 00:34:40,081
Speaker 4: down the back and the other boxing ring he was,

751
00:34:40,081 --> 00:34:42,081
Speaker 4: And they grabbed Buger and took him back to his

752
00:34:42,161 --> 00:34:44,801
Speaker 4: house where Roger was sleeping at the previous night.

753
00:34:44,841 --> 00:34:46,201
Speaker 1: And I had the.

754
00:34:46,161 --> 00:34:48,321
Speaker 4: Place surround it already and took him in and they said,

755
00:34:48,321 --> 00:34:49,241
Speaker 4: that's where he was sleeping.

756
00:34:49,321 --> 00:34:52,281
Speaker 1: He's gone. They searched the joint where it went, but.

757
00:34:52,281 --> 00:34:53,521
Speaker 2: There was nothing to find.

758
00:34:54,401 --> 00:34:55,801
Speaker 1: Nothing to find, mate, he was gone.

759
00:34:57,001 --> 00:34:59,761
Speaker 2: H So how did you feel having you know, you've

760
00:34:59,801 --> 00:35:01,601
Speaker 2: been with him these days and then you hear about

761
00:35:01,641 --> 00:35:04,321
Speaker 2: this murder and the disposal of the body at sea,

762
00:35:04,401 --> 00:35:05,841
Speaker 2: and you must think.

763
00:35:07,361 --> 00:35:09,321
Speaker 4: In my heart at the time when it came out,

764
00:35:09,361 --> 00:35:11,441
Speaker 4: like I thought, yeah, he's done that. You look back

765
00:35:11,481 --> 00:35:15,121
Speaker 4: at how Michael Drury was shot two bullets. Same thing

766
00:35:15,121 --> 00:35:17,641
Speaker 4: with Jamie Gower, two bullets. And I think that's how

767
00:35:17,641 --> 00:35:20,001
Speaker 4: they trained the police back then, the swap team or

768
00:35:20,041 --> 00:35:23,361
Speaker 4: whatever they were, Bang bang. This kid's died of that,

769
00:35:23,521 --> 00:35:25,601
Speaker 4: I thought. But then Glenn McNamara is a copper. But

770
00:35:25,681 --> 00:35:27,801
Speaker 4: I didn't think Glenn would have the balls to do it.

771
00:35:28,601 --> 00:35:30,801
Speaker 4: I didn't think that at all. Some people have asked

772
00:35:30,841 --> 00:35:32,281
Speaker 4: me do you think Roger done And I said, you know,

773
00:35:32,361 --> 00:35:35,481
Speaker 4: I think Roger did it, yes, but as you know,

774
00:35:35,601 --> 00:35:38,641
Speaker 4: a detective when you were interviewing me for that TV show,

775
00:35:38,921 --> 00:35:41,041
Speaker 4: we're talking to that detective, is it all right? There?

776
00:35:41,401 --> 00:35:42,561
Speaker 1: Mentioned his name now.

777
00:35:43,001 --> 00:35:46,161
Speaker 2: Sure, Clyte Small. He's a seat now, good friend of mine.

778
00:35:46,441 --> 00:35:46,681
Speaker 1: Yeah.

779
00:35:46,721 --> 00:35:50,201
Speaker 4: Clive come up to me after you finished interviewing me.

780
00:35:50,281 --> 00:35:52,721
Speaker 4: He said, hey, Mark, here are you going? And very nice, father,

781
00:35:53,001 --> 00:35:55,721
Speaker 4: very polite, and he said, tell me, Mark, what do

782
00:35:55,721 --> 00:35:58,121
Speaker 4: you think happened back then? And I said, well, mate,

783
00:35:58,161 --> 00:36:00,881
Speaker 4: I think Roger shot him. And he just said to me, mate,

784
00:36:00,921 --> 00:36:03,761
Speaker 4: I'm here to tell you he didn't. He goes the

785
00:36:03,841 --> 00:36:06,361
Speaker 4: other bloke did it. I don't know how he knew that.

786
00:36:06,921 --> 00:36:09,081
Speaker 4: And then he said to me at the boat ramp

787
00:36:09,081 --> 00:36:11,241
Speaker 4: he said Roger didn't even get in the boat. He

788
00:36:11,401 --> 00:36:13,601
Speaker 4: was not on the boat at all. He stayed at

789
00:36:13,601 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 4: the boat ramp the whole time. And I went, oh shit.

790
00:36:17,201 --> 00:36:19,281
Speaker 1: He said to me, Mark, how long did you work

791
00:36:19,321 --> 00:36:21,001
Speaker 1: for Roger? I said, I'm not longer. He said in

792
00:36:21,001 --> 00:36:22,801
Speaker 1: the nineties. I said, no, it's not that far back.

793
00:36:23,161 --> 00:36:26,081
Speaker 4: And I went, oh yeah, and he said, oh that's good,

794
00:36:26,201 --> 00:36:27,921
Speaker 4: said because we're going to have to kill him.

795
00:36:28,201 --> 00:36:29,801
Speaker 1: And I went, oh, well I did.

796
00:36:29,921 --> 00:36:31,561
Speaker 4: Maybe he was just having a joke with me or

797
00:36:31,601 --> 00:36:35,001
Speaker 4: don't know, but I took that as he goes, how

798
00:36:35,001 --> 00:36:35,761
Speaker 4: long you can tam for?

799
00:36:35,881 --> 00:36:37,601
Speaker 1: I said, I'm getting on the plane and the bed

800
00:36:37,681 --> 00:36:40,241
Speaker 1: of the our mate that's on the plane. That god

801
00:36:40,241 --> 00:36:40,521
Speaker 1: a am.

802
00:36:41,281 --> 00:36:43,761
Speaker 4: But I don't know how true that is that he

803
00:36:43,801 --> 00:36:45,721
Speaker 4: said that. Maybe he just said that to stir me up.

804
00:36:45,761 --> 00:36:47,841
Speaker 4: I don't know, but he said to me, he goes,

805
00:36:48,041 --> 00:36:50,561
Speaker 4: Roger didn't do it, mate, basically.

806
00:36:51,241 --> 00:36:54,201
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I certainly have my doubts. And of

807
00:36:54,241 --> 00:36:57,081
Speaker 2: course in the trial they both accused each other. It

808
00:36:57,121 --> 00:36:59,801
Speaker 2: was a classic cutthroat defense where one would accuse the

809
00:36:59,841 --> 00:37:02,401
Speaker 2: other and therefore creating a little bit of element of

810
00:37:02,441 --> 00:37:04,881
Speaker 2: doubt for both of them. But I think it's equally

811
00:37:05,041 --> 00:37:07,641
Speaker 2: possible that Glenn McNamara did it. I think he was

812
00:37:07,681 --> 00:37:11,321
Speaker 2: extremely greedy, he needed money, and he was the one

813
00:37:11,321 --> 00:37:13,961
Speaker 2: that had had done all the preparatory work. I think

814
00:37:13,961 --> 00:37:17,161
Speaker 2: there'd been twenty plus conversations, there'd been meetings and all

815
00:37:17,241 --> 00:37:19,801
Speaker 2: kinds of things between him and Gow and he was

816
00:37:19,841 --> 00:37:23,561
Speaker 2: seeing a massive payday. And Roger never shared his thoughts

817
00:37:23,681 --> 00:37:26,121
Speaker 2: to anybody with this, and if he's anybody out there,

818
00:37:26,121 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: he did, please get in touch. But I can't help

819
00:37:28,521 --> 00:37:31,401
Speaker 2: but think that if Roger had been the prime mover

820
00:37:31,481 --> 00:37:34,921
Speaker 2: of everything, they would never have found Jamie GAA's body.

821
00:37:35,401 --> 00:37:36,161
Speaker 1: I don't believe so.

822
00:37:37,361 --> 00:37:40,241
Speaker 2: As I said before, the conversation we had was around

823
00:37:40,281 --> 00:37:44,161
Speaker 2: preparing the body for a disposal, but no whatever. Fine,

824
00:37:44,161 --> 00:37:46,961
Speaker 2: And of course in the end, whoever did the disposal

825
00:37:47,321 --> 00:37:51,241
Speaker 2: just attaches Jamie GAA's body without any dissections to a

826
00:37:51,321 --> 00:37:55,121
Speaker 2: cheap anchor chain, drops him down there and then you know,

827
00:37:55,201 --> 00:37:57,241
Speaker 2: he's swaying in the water for a few days. Of course,

828
00:37:57,281 --> 00:37:59,801
Speaker 2: the chain snaps and he comes back to this made

829
00:37:59,841 --> 00:38:01,881
Speaker 2: a big comeback. So that was the end of it.

830
00:38:02,521 --> 00:38:04,921
Speaker 4: See, I don't believe that Roger would have made a mistake.

831
00:38:05,281 --> 00:38:08,761
Speaker 4: Let the body float up. But I never met Glenn McNamara.

832
00:38:08,801 --> 00:38:11,081
Speaker 4: I don't believe I did, unless he was at Roger's

833
00:38:11,121 --> 00:38:14,361
Speaker 4: book launched years ago, but I don't recall meeting him.

834
00:38:14,801 --> 00:38:17,241
Speaker 4: The way you come across early on the TV to

835
00:38:17,281 --> 00:38:19,201
Speaker 4: me was that he didn't have the balls to do it,

836
00:38:19,561 --> 00:38:23,521
Speaker 4: and Roger did. He's a proven pillar. But however, what

837
00:38:23,561 --> 00:38:25,641
Speaker 4: Clive said to me was totally different.

838
00:38:25,961 --> 00:38:28,561
Speaker 2: And Clyde was a man of great integrity, so I

839
00:38:28,561 --> 00:38:30,241
Speaker 2: would put some story in what he was saying. He

840
00:38:30,281 --> 00:38:32,401
Speaker 2: wasn't there to take the piss out of you or anything.

841
00:38:32,441 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: But I guess with Roger's incarceration it sort of ended

842
00:38:35,481 --> 00:38:38,161
Speaker 2: your period of time in the racy world of the underworld,

843
00:38:38,201 --> 00:38:40,241
Speaker 2: if you like. Because you'd, I mean, Roger had brought

844
00:38:40,281 --> 00:38:43,321
Speaker 2: you to Melbourne, You'd met Mick Gattter, you'd meck Jimmy Beasley,

845
00:38:43,761 --> 00:38:46,361
Speaker 2: the killer of Donald McKay. So for a guy who

846
00:38:46,441 --> 00:38:50,041
Speaker 2: was not a criminal and meeting your heroes, it was

847
00:38:50,041 --> 00:38:51,321
Speaker 2: an extraordinary time for you.

848
00:38:52,001 --> 00:38:52,761
Speaker 1: Oh you know.

849
00:38:52,801 --> 00:38:55,081
Speaker 4: And I met a lot of good people along the way,

850
00:38:55,121 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 4: and very interesting people, and like Mick Gattter, I found

851
00:38:58,041 --> 00:39:01,521
Speaker 4: to be a terrific fellow, very generous very nice to me.

852
00:39:01,681 --> 00:39:04,201
Speaker 4: I wouldn't like to get on his bad side. However,

853
00:39:04,481 --> 00:39:07,641
Speaker 4: he was very very nice to meet, charming and everything.

854
00:39:07,681 --> 00:39:11,081
Speaker 4: And Graham Aybo Henry's just a gentleman. I know he's

855
00:39:11,081 --> 00:39:13,161
Speaker 4: got a pass, but me and Graham have never had

856
00:39:13,161 --> 00:39:16,281
Speaker 4: a cross word. We've always been good mates. And he

857
00:39:16,481 --> 00:39:19,161
Speaker 4: just a lovely fellow. There's a few of them that

858
00:39:19,521 --> 00:39:22,241
Speaker 4: you know, you definitely. I've just been in a position

859
00:39:22,241 --> 00:39:24,641
Speaker 4: where I suppose that they were sort of much done

860
00:39:24,681 --> 00:39:27,041
Speaker 4: with their career at the time. They're all twenty odd

861
00:39:27,121 --> 00:39:30,841
Speaker 4: years older than me, and I was in the security

862
00:39:30,841 --> 00:39:33,801
Speaker 4: industry and bodygarden and what not and writing books and

863
00:39:34,361 --> 00:39:37,161
Speaker 4: doing whatnot. And I just got along with these blocks

864
00:39:37,201 --> 00:39:39,721
Speaker 4: and I found them all to be very nice fellas.

865
00:39:40,281 --> 00:39:42,281
Speaker 2: Yeah, as you say, you went on the wrong side

866
00:39:42,281 --> 00:39:45,401
Speaker 2: of them, and was on the wrong side. And maybe

867
00:39:45,481 --> 00:39:48,041
Speaker 2: Roger's career wasn't quite done because you know, I heard

868
00:39:48,081 --> 00:39:50,601
Speaker 2: the dream of the Gangland War from my contacts here

869
00:39:50,601 --> 00:39:53,081
Speaker 2: in Melbourne, that Roger was down here looking for killing

870
00:39:53,121 --> 00:39:56,601
Speaker 2: work because he thought he could get close to Carl

871
00:39:56,601 --> 00:39:59,801
Speaker 2: Williams because of the hero worshiping factor. Can I remember

872
00:40:00,081 --> 00:40:02,801
Speaker 2: Carl used to tell me, oh, can you introduce me

873
00:40:02,841 --> 00:40:06,041
Speaker 2: to chop a read. I said, well, I probably could,

874
00:40:06,081 --> 00:40:07,761
Speaker 2: you know, and this type of thing, and he is

875
00:40:07,801 --> 00:40:10,961
Speaker 2: as much starstruck with those sort of people as yourself,

876
00:40:11,121 --> 00:40:14,281
Speaker 2: you know. So, I mean, Roger could have dispatched Carl easier,

877
00:40:14,281 --> 00:40:16,361
Speaker 2: I reckon and saved quite a few lives.

878
00:40:16,921 --> 00:40:21,121
Speaker 4: But oh, Roger very very capable of that. And I

879
00:40:21,201 --> 00:40:24,401
Speaker 4: believe that he's total count his total body count. And

880
00:40:24,641 --> 00:40:26,561
Speaker 4: I'm not being rude or anyone do any of his

881
00:40:26,641 --> 00:40:29,081
Speaker 4: family here, But I don't think a lot of it's

882
00:40:29,081 --> 00:40:29,561
Speaker 4: come to light.

883
00:40:29,601 --> 00:40:33,241
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more there. I just truly

884
00:40:33,281 --> 00:40:33,761
Speaker 1: believe that.

885
00:40:34,841 --> 00:40:38,241
Speaker 2: I think you're right, and maybe in the future people

886
00:40:38,241 --> 00:40:41,841
Speaker 2: will come forward and finish those stories, complete the body count.

887
00:40:41,961 --> 00:40:43,841
Speaker 2: But listen, so what are you doing now? Like you're

888
00:40:43,921 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: right out of that stuff now?

889
00:40:45,721 --> 00:40:49,081
Speaker 1: Yeah, these days, I'm just a humble truck driver.

890
00:40:49,681 --> 00:40:52,681
Speaker 4: Had a couple of books out been mentioned in your book,

891
00:40:52,721 --> 00:40:55,841
Speaker 4: and sees a Campbell's book and a few others. And

892
00:40:55,881 --> 00:40:57,681
Speaker 4: you never know, one day you might write a book

893
00:40:57,721 --> 00:40:59,161
Speaker 4: about a few stories about me, Adam.

894
00:40:59,201 --> 00:40:59,641
Speaker 1: You never know.

895
00:41:00,161 --> 00:41:03,081
Speaker 4: Me and Choppa made a documentary. I haven't released it

896
00:41:03,161 --> 00:41:06,361
Speaker 4: yet to the public. We'll see how that happens, what goes.

897
00:41:06,441 --> 00:41:09,681
Speaker 4: It's called legends and lunatics and able to see what

898
00:41:09,721 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 4: happens with that in the future. But I've got other

899
00:41:11,961 --> 00:41:14,841
Speaker 4: people there that want to make a bit of a

900
00:41:14,881 --> 00:41:16,881
Speaker 4: movie based on my books in my career and a

901
00:41:16,881 --> 00:41:18,641
Speaker 4: bit of Chopper and a bit of Roger there, which could

902
00:41:18,641 --> 00:41:19,401
Speaker 4: be very interesting.

903
00:41:19,961 --> 00:41:22,241
Speaker 1: And you know, we'll just see how it gays.

904
00:41:23,001 --> 00:41:26,921
Speaker 2: Because quite apart from this period of you know, celebrity

905
00:41:27,001 --> 00:41:29,961
Speaker 2: crooks and so forth, you had these years of bouncing

906
00:41:29,961 --> 00:41:32,361
Speaker 2: and there were some pretty traumatic moments, things that have

907
00:41:32,401 --> 00:41:34,881
Speaker 2: stayed with you, like even one time when someone tried

908
00:41:34,881 --> 00:41:35,721
Speaker 2: to set you on fire.

909
00:41:36,521 --> 00:41:39,681
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was cleaning up a fairly hard pub in

910
00:41:39,721 --> 00:41:43,321
Speaker 4: Brisbane back then. This is twenty five years ago, and

911
00:41:43,641 --> 00:41:46,481
Speaker 4: back then I was pretty fearless and I can handle

912
00:41:46,521 --> 00:41:48,841
Speaker 4: myself a bit. I was good at cleaning out pubs

913
00:41:49,041 --> 00:41:51,521
Speaker 4: that needed cleaning out. And anyway, the few of the

914
00:41:51,561 --> 00:41:54,721
Speaker 4: locals natives didn't like it. Then they doused me in

915
00:41:54,801 --> 00:41:58,041
Speaker 4: fuel and a manager doused the manager in fuel as well.

916
00:41:57,921 --> 00:41:59,881
Speaker 1: And tried to set us on fire.

917
00:42:00,521 --> 00:42:04,201
Speaker 4: It just so happened though, that day that the bit

918
00:42:04,361 --> 00:42:07,601
Speaker 4: lighter that he was holding to light us up. Now

919
00:42:07,641 --> 00:42:10,121
Speaker 4: this gentleman had one of those you know where you

920
00:42:10,161 --> 00:42:12,041
Speaker 4: hold that on your throat to speak, one of those

921
00:42:12,321 --> 00:42:14,921
Speaker 4: machines that he couldn't speak without the aid of that.

922
00:42:15,201 --> 00:42:16,961
Speaker 4: So he had that in his pocket and he's doused

923
00:42:16,961 --> 00:42:19,801
Speaker 4: to some fuel with coke models full of fuel. Then

924
00:42:19,841 --> 00:42:22,601
Speaker 4: he's got a lighter in one hand and the thing, you.

925
00:42:22,561 --> 00:42:24,121
Speaker 1: Know, I'll whake you up.

926
00:42:24,201 --> 00:42:28,441
Speaker 4: And in the meantime the lighter has become that doused

927
00:42:28,481 --> 00:42:32,321
Speaker 4: in fuel that it wouldn't strike, And that was the

928
00:42:32,361 --> 00:42:33,321
Speaker 4: only thing that saved it.

929
00:42:33,321 --> 00:42:34,201
Speaker 1: It would not strike.

930
00:42:34,241 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 4: If you put a bit lighter in fuel, it won't

931
00:42:36,841 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 4: enough fuel on, it won't light well.

932
00:42:39,001 --> 00:42:42,161
Speaker 2: And also had he managed to light up, would lit

933
00:42:42,201 --> 00:42:43,161
Speaker 2: himself up as well.

934
00:42:43,561 --> 00:42:46,201
Speaker 4: Yeah, well he doused himself in fuel as well. He

935
00:42:46,321 --> 00:42:48,561
Speaker 4: doused himself in the bit of fuel as well. But

936
00:42:48,801 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 4: just so happened. The timing of it was a couple

937
00:42:51,481 --> 00:42:54,321
Speaker 4: of coppers were walking past. Undercover coppers come run and

938
00:42:54,401 --> 00:42:57,081
Speaker 4: in saw it was going on, grabbing the Channel seven

939
00:42:57,121 --> 00:42:59,681
Speaker 4: news is driving past and seeing something the fiber gad

940
00:42:59,761 --> 00:43:02,081
Speaker 4: turned up and chasing around. But you can imagine the

941
00:43:02,121 --> 00:43:03,761
Speaker 4: scene out the front of a busy part of a

942
00:43:03,841 --> 00:43:07,601
Speaker 4: hard pub. Another manager they're chasing me and the manager

943
00:43:07,601 --> 00:43:10,001
Speaker 4: around with a fi extinguished in case we get lit.

944
00:43:10,081 --> 00:43:11,361
Speaker 1: And a native fellow.

945
00:43:11,921 --> 00:43:14,441
Speaker 4: He's got a lighter, wondering White Way work. He's Covenant

946
00:43:14,481 --> 00:43:17,321
Speaker 4: Fuel and there's people everywhere and this has happened to

947
00:43:17,361 --> 00:43:20,441
Speaker 4: bloody one o'clock on a Thursday afternoon, you know, in

948
00:43:20,521 --> 00:43:24,081
Speaker 4: West Enden Brisbane and mate. It was fairly serious, you know.

949
00:43:24,081 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 4: It was on the news and everything. And my mother

950
00:43:26,561 --> 00:43:28,481
Speaker 4: was down in Melbourne at the time with a conference

951
00:43:28,521 --> 00:43:30,721
Speaker 4: there and she's seen it on the news. She rings

952
00:43:30,761 --> 00:43:32,681
Speaker 4: me up and says, what have you done this time?

953
00:43:33,801 --> 00:43:36,041
Speaker 4: And all this sort of stuff, and it was national

954
00:43:36,081 --> 00:43:38,921
Speaker 4: news at the time. Anyway, the bloke will charge with

955
00:43:38,961 --> 00:43:42,121
Speaker 4: a couple of counts of attempted murder, but he got off.

956
00:43:42,921 --> 00:43:46,281
Speaker 4: He was charged with two counts of attempted murder. They

957
00:43:46,361 --> 00:43:48,721
Speaker 4: dropped that because the attempted murder is a very hard

958
00:43:48,841 --> 00:43:49,561
Speaker 4: charged to prove.

959
00:43:50,041 --> 00:43:51,401
Speaker 1: So what they've charged.

960
00:43:51,241 --> 00:43:54,161
Speaker 4: Him with in the end was attempt to create grievous

961
00:43:54,201 --> 00:43:58,321
Speaker 4: bodily harm with an explosive liquid I think was the term.

962
00:43:58,721 --> 00:44:02,641
Speaker 4: So when it come to the court date, the magistrate said, well,

963
00:44:03,081 --> 00:44:06,281
Speaker 4: I don't believe Fuel's explosive. I think it's combustible. And

964
00:44:06,441 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: that one word, god, he it's a point of law,

965
00:44:09,481 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 4: they call it. And that one thing got this bloke

966
00:44:11,521 --> 00:44:14,321
Speaker 4: off completely. He walked out of there completely free.

967
00:44:15,081 --> 00:44:15,321
Speaker 1: You know.

968
00:44:15,801 --> 00:44:17,881
Speaker 4: I was a bit let down by the justice system

969
00:44:17,881 --> 00:44:20,361
Speaker 4: with that. But if I saw the bloke now, I'd say,

970
00:44:20,361 --> 00:44:22,361
Speaker 4: I'm not mad at him. I've forgiven him long, long

971
00:44:22,401 --> 00:44:24,641
Speaker 4: time ago. I got over it. If I saw him now,

972
00:44:24,641 --> 00:44:26,681
Speaker 4: I'd say, listen, I'll buy your drink if you tell

973
00:44:26,721 --> 00:44:29,161
Speaker 4: me why you did it, exactly, why you picked me out,

974
00:44:29,281 --> 00:44:34,761
Speaker 4: you know. But yeah, I haven't found him since so.

975
00:44:33,361 --> 00:44:37,201
Speaker 2: Well, if he's if he's listening, Mark's ready for a reunion.

976
00:44:38,801 --> 00:44:40,321
Speaker 1: He's always been a bright spark.

977
00:44:43,481 --> 00:44:45,601
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, Thank you so much for your memories. It's

978
00:44:45,601 --> 00:44:49,161
Speaker 2: fascinating to see your brush with fame and your surviving.

979
00:44:49,241 --> 00:44:51,321
Speaker 2: You didn't You didn't end up going to jail or

980
00:44:51,441 --> 00:44:54,801
Speaker 2: anything happening to you. You finish your career with no

981
00:44:54,881 --> 00:44:58,681
Speaker 2: criminal record. It's a good achievement, it is. I think

982
00:44:58,721 --> 00:44:59,481
Speaker 2: I've done quite well.

983
00:44:59,841 --> 00:45:01,841
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know what, it is always a pleasure

984
00:45:01,881 --> 00:45:04,481
Speaker 4: anyone listening on here. I thank you for listening to

985
00:45:04,561 --> 00:45:06,801
Speaker 4: my story, and I thank Adam for having me on

986
00:45:06,841 --> 00:45:07,121
Speaker 4: the show.

987
00:45:07,201 --> 00:45:08,561
Speaker 1: It's always a great experience.

988
00:45:09,201 --> 00:45:10,881
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. And you've still got a book

989
00:45:10,921 --> 00:45:13,321
Speaker 2: people can buy, Mark Hammer Dixon.

990
00:45:13,961 --> 00:45:16,641
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's called The Hammer the Book, and it's called

991
00:45:16,681 --> 00:45:17,721
Speaker 4: Bash for Cash.

992
00:45:17,881 --> 00:45:19,521
Speaker 1: That's the first one.

993
00:45:19,361 --> 00:45:22,321
Speaker 4: At the moment, there were plenty of them out there,

994
00:45:22,361 --> 00:45:25,921
Speaker 4: but we sold out of him years ago, fifteen thousand

995
00:45:25,921 --> 00:45:27,841
Speaker 4: copies we did. Of the first one that sold out,

996
00:45:28,081 --> 00:45:30,161
Speaker 4: he did a reprint and believe it or not, in

997
00:45:30,201 --> 00:45:33,081
Speaker 4: the twenty twenty two flooding up here in Brisbane, the

998
00:45:33,121 --> 00:45:36,161
Speaker 4: warehouse went under. There was three thousand on one pellet,

999
00:45:36,201 --> 00:45:37,521
Speaker 4: three thousand of another.

1000
00:45:37,241 --> 00:45:38,281
Speaker 1: Pellet ready to go out.

1001
00:45:38,521 --> 00:45:42,521
Speaker 4: They completely went underwater, joking in a flash flood. But

1002
00:45:42,881 --> 00:45:45,361
Speaker 4: since then I've written one myself, the first one out

1003
00:45:45,361 --> 00:45:48,041
Speaker 4: of ghost writer wrote the second one called More from

1004
00:45:48,121 --> 00:45:51,001
Speaker 4: the Door, and I've been told that's a lot better read.

1005
00:45:51,601 --> 00:45:54,361
Speaker 2: So yeah, you have to see me the manuscript and

1006
00:45:54,361 --> 00:45:57,041
Speaker 2: I can give you some feedback, buddy. But atflot pleasure

1007
00:45:57,041 --> 00:45:58,121
Speaker 2: TONI you mate.

1008
00:45:58,041 --> 00:46:01,161
Speaker 1: Good talking to you, see you, mate.

1009
00:46:04,041 --> 00:46:07,841
Speaker 2: Cheers The Hammer Dixon on his days with Mark Chopper,

1010
00:46:07,881 --> 00:46:11,321
Speaker 2: Red and Roger Rogerson. That's a really interesting point that

1011
00:46:11,481 --> 00:46:15,241
Speaker 2: Mark raises about who actually shot Jamie gown. Also who

1012
00:46:15,281 --> 00:46:18,601
Speaker 2: shot Mick Drury. I guess we'll never know. Roger's taking

1013
00:46:18,681 --> 00:46:21,721
Speaker 2: those secrets to the grave. Always people out there with

1014
00:46:21,801 --> 00:46:23,921
Speaker 2: some sort of information on these things. So if you

1015
00:46:23,961 --> 00:46:26,681
Speaker 2: know someone who knows someone, tell them to get in touch.

1016
00:46:27,121 --> 00:46:29,001
Speaker 2: You always send me an email Adam Channer writer at

1017
00:46:29,041 --> 00:46:31,161
Speaker 2: gmail dot com. Or if you want to report a crime.

1018
00:46:31,161 --> 00:46:34,401
Speaker 2: If you don't trust me, you always call crime Stoppers

1019
00:46:34,401 --> 00:46:37,121
Speaker 2: one of a hundred, triple three, triple zero. I'd love

1020
00:46:37,121 --> 00:46:39,601
Speaker 2: to hear from you. It's always confidential, but call me first.

1021
00:46:39,641 --> 00:46:41,641
Speaker 2: Would you mind send me the email. This has been

1022
00:46:41,641 --> 00:46:43,201
Speaker 2: Adam Chaffer, Real Crime. Thanks for listening.