WEBVTT - Kim Williams on the future of the ABC

0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:11.000
<v Speaker 1>From Sports Media on Daniel James, this is seven Am.

0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.080
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like a bad dream. You're on stage, you

0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.200
<v Speaker 1>say something about Joe Rogan, and suddenly you're the subject

0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:20.200
<v Speaker 1>of a global pylon led by the world's richest man,

0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.800
<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk. But this is what the chair of the ABC,

0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.200
<v Speaker 1>Kim Williams, recently endured at the comments he made at

0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:28.240
<v Speaker 1>the National Press Club.

0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I think people like mister Rogan pray on people's vulnerabilities,

0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:41.040
<v Speaker 2>They pray on fear, they pray on anxiety.

0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.120
<v Speaker 1>But Williams wasn't there to talk about Rogan. He was

0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:48.000
<v Speaker 1>there to defend the ABC, an institution still dealing with

0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.279
<v Speaker 1>a decade of cuts, staff departures and questions about management's

0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.400
<v Speaker 1>ability to guide the national broadcaster in an age of

0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.680
<v Speaker 1>lies designed to sew division. Today, Kim Williams on the

0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.400
<v Speaker 1>challenges and why he insists he's in the right job.

0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:22.040
<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, December ninth. Kim, thanks so much for joining

0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.240
<v Speaker 1>us as Vaniel. You've had a deep interest in the

0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.280
<v Speaker 1>ABC for such a long time, like so many Australians,

0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.880
<v Speaker 1>but one would argue that your interest has been deeper

0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:35.120
<v Speaker 1>than most. If the ABC is firing on all cylinders.

0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:36.160
<v Speaker 1>What does that look like?

0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Well, if the ABC is firing on all cylinders, I

0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.240
<v Speaker 3>think it becomes the indispensable ally to being an Australian citizen.

0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:51.640
<v Speaker 3>It is a useful contributor to your worldview. It is

0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:58.160
<v Speaker 3>a useful participant in your formation of thoughts and ideas

0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.280
<v Speaker 3>and priorities.

0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:01.840
<v Speaker 4>Into of our nation and its direction.

0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:08.760
<v Speaker 3>It's a useful barometer of community perception, of community sentiment,

0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.360
<v Speaker 3>and it is a place that is devoted to interrogating

0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.520
<v Speaker 3>and celebrating that which is about Australia and the many

0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:23.760
<v Speaker 3>audiences and communities that constitute the Australian nation. I think

0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.960
<v Speaker 3>those are the sorts of elements and virtues that the

0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:33.240
<v Speaker 3>ABC pumping on all cylinders would constitute.

0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.560
<v Speaker 1>At a time where people can get their news and

0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:41.400
<v Speaker 1>their entertainment from anywhere or anyone, the ABC is reaching

0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.120
<v Speaker 1>less Australians, with the primer driver of that being a

0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:49.480
<v Speaker 1>decline in ABC news. Do you have an opinion as

0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:50.320
<v Speaker 1>to what that might be?

0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't agree with the question, and I don't

0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.880
<v Speaker 3>agree with the underpinning to your question. The ABC is

0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:01.320
<v Speaker 3>the number one source of news in Australia. ABC Online

0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:05.960
<v Speaker 3>is getting a weekly audience of around twelve million Australians

0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.600
<v Speaker 3>and to my knowledge, and please feel free to correct me, Danielbert,

0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:16.000
<v Speaker 3>I don't think anyone else is getting that kind of audience. Now,

0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:20.839
<v Speaker 3>your question may refer to a diminishment in news consumption

0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.400
<v Speaker 3>on the part of Australians. I am not convinced that

0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:30.520
<v Speaker 3>is correct. I understand a number of people produce material

0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:35.680
<v Speaker 3>that says news consumption is down. I'm a skeptic about

0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.640
<v Speaker 3>this kind of popular notion of news avoidance and I'm

0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.160
<v Speaker 3>very very cautious in accepting it as an established fact.

0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.480
<v Speaker 1>The client I was referring to came from the government's

0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.840
<v Speaker 1>website Transparency dot gov, and this is a direct quote.

0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.560
<v Speaker 1>ABC News Web has been the primary driver of overall

0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.080
<v Speaker 1>network declient with weekly users averaging seven point seven million,

0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.200
<v Speaker 1>which is of course a high number, but that's down

0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:03.000
<v Speaker 1>by thirty percent year on year. That's the decline. We're

0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.920
<v Speaker 1>talking about, a decline from viewers from the ABC itself.

0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.880
<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't know when that report was published. Certainly

0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:16.000
<v Speaker 3>from the time of the relaunch of the ABC Digital

0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.359
<v Speaker 3>News offering, our numbers are very much higher than that.

0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.159
<v Speaker 1>Kim not long after he started his chair Managing Director

0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:27.000
<v Speaker 1>David Anderson announced he was resigning a year into his

0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.520
<v Speaker 1>second term after more than thirty years at the ABC.

0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.479
<v Speaker 1>What does that meant for the stability in the way

0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.480
<v Speaker 1>the broadcaster is currently being run.

0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.120
<v Speaker 3>Well, we're in a moment of transition. David has been

0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.760
<v Speaker 3>on some personal leave recently, but he'll be back next

0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:47.840
<v Speaker 3>week and I would think David would continue to provide

0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.120
<v Speaker 3>the steady pair of hands that he has provided for

0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.800
<v Speaker 3>an extended period of time over the last six years,

0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.240
<v Speaker 3>and as he had provided previously in a variety have

0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:05.000
<v Speaker 3>different roles at the ABC. We are recruiting a new

0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:09.360
<v Speaker 3>managing director and I'm confident that we will have an

0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.520
<v Speaker 3>appropriate replacement available for announcement in due course.

0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:18.000
<v Speaker 1>What is that period of transition from David as managing

0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.280
<v Speaker 1>director to this new managing director meant for the organization?

0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:22.159
<v Speaker 1>In practice?

0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:24.880
<v Speaker 3>I think in practice it means that there is a

0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:32.120
<v Speaker 3>certain degree of caution Internally, there are elements of normal

0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:37.080
<v Speaker 3>antibody rejection of fresh thinking and new ideas. That's a

0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.480
<v Speaker 3>very institutional response to change, and that there are also

0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.159
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people who have high expectations and very

0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:50.160
<v Speaker 3>real and considerable enthusiasm for refreshed thinking, and that's not

0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:54.040
<v Speaker 3>set in a comment on David at all institutions tend

0:05:54.760 --> 0:06:00.640
<v Speaker 3>to have a deficit of agility, regrettably predictably.

0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I know they're from experience. You recently intervened in

0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.440
<v Speaker 1>reversing decision by the managing director to fold radio into

0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.680
<v Speaker 1>the Content division. This is something a manager director will

0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.000
<v Speaker 1>normally be in charge of. We've spoken to quite a

0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.560
<v Speaker 1>few people who say that you are quite an interventionist chair.

0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Are you in the wrong job.

0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.000
<v Speaker 4>No, I'm not in the wrong job.

0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm in a very strong role as Chair of the ABC,

0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:35.080
<v Speaker 3>and I am charged with governance responsibilities number one for

0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.719
<v Speaker 3>the efficient operation of the ABC and the service of

0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.120
<v Speaker 3>all Australians. Number two for protecting and defending the integrity

0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:47.520
<v Speaker 3>and independence of the ABC, and number three for having

0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:53.680
<v Speaker 3>responsibility for the impartiality in the collection and dissemination of

0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:59.080
<v Speaker 3>news and information according to commonly accepted standards of objective journalism.

0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:04.200
<v Speaker 3>They are the three roles described in the ABC Act

0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.520
<v Speaker 3>as the responsibilities of the Board of the ABC. I

0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:11.239
<v Speaker 3>think you'll find that all of my actions are entirely

0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.640
<v Speaker 3>consistent with the good governance principles that are reflected in

0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.920
<v Speaker 3>those things, and of course the ABC Board has the

0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.679
<v Speaker 3>custodianship responsibility for the charter.

0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.240
<v Speaker 4>The charter is in section six of the ABC Act.

0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.600
<v Speaker 3>The responsibilities of the bord are in section eight of

0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:33.600
<v Speaker 3>the ABC Act. I can assure you, Daniel, I sleep

0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.960
<v Speaker 3>metaphorically with a copy of the Act under my pillar.

0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I was peruising through it this afternoon. I can't pretend

0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:46.000
<v Speaker 1>to know one scuric of it as well as you do. Kim.

0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:56.400
<v Speaker 1>After the break defending change at the ABC, Kim Williams,

0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.120
<v Speaker 1>there's been a big shake up with audio at the ABC,

0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.840
<v Speaker 1>particularly in Sydney. You defend the management's decision to let

0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Sarah McDonald go despite her ratings. Has been an extraordinary

0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:11.040
<v Speaker 1>reaction to that decision. Even in Melbourne. People are talking, Daniel.

0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:16.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm not going to mark any individual inside the ABC's

0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.400
<v Speaker 3>report card publicly, so please do not put me in

0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:25.000
<v Speaker 3>a position where you're expecting me to discuss or describe

0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.160
<v Speaker 3>any individual inside the ABC. I would never do that,

0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.720
<v Speaker 3>and I have not in any way made any comment

0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:38.520
<v Speaker 3>about Sarah McDonald or anybody else inside the fabric of

0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.160
<v Speaker 3>the ABC. I think that's holding and appropriate. What I

0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:47.680
<v Speaker 3>have defended is the notion of change within any media organization,

0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.960
<v Speaker 3>and I have defended the right and the integrity of

0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:58.360
<v Speaker 3>management in making changes. The notion that anyone has a

0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.520
<v Speaker 3>job until they no longer want want that job in

0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:06.920
<v Speaker 3>a public facing role on publicly owned airwaves delivering to

0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.280
<v Speaker 3>the broad community of Australians is simply ridiculous.

0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:16.520
<v Speaker 1>So the question was, what do you attribute the extraordinary

0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:21.880
<v Speaker 1>reaction to decisions made about those airways too? I mean,

0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:22.880
<v Speaker 1>is that a deep So.

0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:29.040
<v Speaker 3>You're describing the noise as being extraordinary rather than it's

0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.120
<v Speaker 3>simply being a body of noise.

0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't think you can ignore your audience.

0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.079
<v Speaker 4>I don't think one should ever ignore the audience.

0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.240
<v Speaker 3>But I don't think you need to keep things in

0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:43.040
<v Speaker 3>perspective relative to the size of the audience and the

0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.199
<v Speaker 3>size and volume of the noise.

0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.000
<v Speaker 4>All things need to be contextualized.

0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Daniel, sure, and I tried to contextualize it. It was

0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a big response to a decision made about taking audio

0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.400
<v Speaker 1>in a new direction. So what is that new direction?

0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.959
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think you'll see that new new direction when

0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:12.320
<v Speaker 3>announcements are made as to fresh announcers and fresh presentation formats.

0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.760
<v Speaker 3>That will happen in the course of two thousand and

0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:23.920
<v Speaker 3>twenty five. They will all obviously be publicly promoted and presented,

0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.120
<v Speaker 3>and I think they'll be pretty enthusiastic responses from the public.

0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:35.560
<v Speaker 1>I confident that the audio management team has a strong

0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:40.600
<v Speaker 1>handle on what the direction for ABC Radio is over

0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:41.800
<v Speaker 1>the coming years.

0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:48.120
<v Speaker 3>I am I'm exceedingly confident in the capability and the

0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:53.800
<v Speaker 3>creativity that is informing the leadership in audio.

0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.240
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I think pretty much every

0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.839
<v Speaker 1>Free to Wear media organization and struggling with at the

0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:06.640
<v Speaker 1>moment is trying to attract and retain young listeners and viewers.

0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.800
<v Speaker 1>They tend not to watch Free to Wear live. It

0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.719
<v Speaker 1>has not on effectual the ABC down the track as

0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.160
<v Speaker 1>people graduate from Triple J to Double J to local

0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.760
<v Speaker 1>radio and radio national beyond. How can the ABC not

0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.320
<v Speaker 1>only get young viewers and listeners back, but how can

0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:24.160
<v Speaker 1>they retain them?

0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:29.920
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think the ABC in many ways cannot persist

0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:34.960
<v Speaker 3>in regarding an ABC environment as being the exclusive environment

0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:40.400
<v Speaker 3>in which you consume ABC provision content. And I think

0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.520
<v Speaker 3>you need to respect the audience and respect the behaviors

0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.800
<v Speaker 3>and respect the preferences of the audience in consuming material.

0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.920
<v Speaker 3>In other domains, for example, in YouTube or on TikTok,

0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.480
<v Speaker 3>or in Instagram, or all of the diverse platforms that

0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:03.320
<v Speaker 3>now exist and which clearly enjoy pretty hearty endorsement from

0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:07.200
<v Speaker 3>the community at large in a wide, widely dispersed way

0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.239
<v Speaker 3>across many, many forms of consumption.

0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.000
<v Speaker 4>Australians own the material.

0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.559
<v Speaker 3>And they should have access to it in a wide

0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:16.880
<v Speaker 3>variety of different environments.

0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:21.120
<v Speaker 1>And finally, Kim, in your very entertaining Press Club address

0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.440
<v Speaker 1>from the other week, he talked about making mistakes that

0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.760
<v Speaker 1>happens to us all and it's important to acknowledge them

0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.199
<v Speaker 1>in your time is chair so far? Reflecting on your

0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.880
<v Speaker 1>first twelve months in the role, what mistakes have you made?

0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, I've been here for eight months, not twelve months,

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:43.319
<v Speaker 3>don't you, Although thank you for making it like twelve months,

0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 3>it feels in some ways like two or three years.

0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:46.920
<v Speaker 4>Frequently.

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.320
<v Speaker 3>Look, I don't think it's for me to publicly mark

0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:53.280
<v Speaker 3>my report card.

0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 4>It's for others to mark that for me.

0:12:55.559 --> 0:13:00.200
<v Speaker 3>And of course it being Australia, people do they do

0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:05.240
<v Speaker 3>some improfution in some times less than generous terms. But

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:10.440
<v Speaker 3>I take all criticism on board and processes and respect

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.679
<v Speaker 3>it and value.

0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.839
<v Speaker 1>It and probably the most controversial question of all. Before

0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 1>I thank you for your time, what's your favorite podcasting?

0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh gee, that's a tough, tough, tough question. I would

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:29.880
<v Speaker 3>have to say Ezra Cline is my favorite foreign podcast.

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.720
<v Speaker 3>I think Isracline is that rare beast. He is a

0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:40.040
<v Speaker 3>publicly accessible, agreeable intellectual who grazes across a wide thought domain.

0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 3>In terms of Australian podcasts, I'm a big fan of

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.320
<v Speaker 3>Take Me to Your Leader. I find it a really

0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:54.640
<v Speaker 3>really terrific podcast and I never miss a copy. But

0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:00.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm a very very big user of podcasts and grays

0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.920
<v Speaker 3>equally here and internationally.

0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, Kim, thank you for coming on our podcast. Thanks

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:08.360
<v Speaker 1>for your time.

0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.240
<v Speaker 3>I should say I think you do a pretty good

0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 3>podcast too.

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.319
<v Speaker 1>That's that's all you have to say to him. That's

0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 1>all you have to say, thank you, Okay.

0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:20.240
<v Speaker 4>Bye.

0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Also in the years today, a Labor Cabinet minister has

0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:39.200
<v Speaker 1>rejected Israeli Prime Minister Benjaminetto Who's statement linking in Melbourne

0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 1>synagogue fire bombing to Australia's vote in favor of a

0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:46.640
<v Speaker 1>UN resolution demanding Israel and its occupation of Palestinian territory

0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 1>In a post on x NATO, who put blame on

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.680
<v Speaker 1>what he called the Alberanezi government's extreme anti Israeli position.

0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Employment of Workplace Relations Minister Murray Wat said he respectfully

0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 1>disagrees and that the UN resolution was a step towards

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 1>peace and organizers of the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Marti

0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Gras have voted not to ban New South Wales Police

0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.880
<v Speaker 1>officers from marching out next year's parade. Three different proposals

0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 1>were put to the Marti Gras annual Drenial meeting to

0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.640
<v Speaker 1>either block or limit New South Wales Police officers participation

0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.760
<v Speaker 1>in the parade, and all three motions were narrowly defeated.

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James to be listening to seven AM. We'll

0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 1>be back tomorrow