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Speaker 1: Appoche Production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoy the show,

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Speaker 2: please subscribe and share it with your friends, even your enemies.

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Speaker 3: I'm not picky.

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Speaker 2: I've got several stories that I've followed for years that

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Speaker 2: I simply can't let go of. Mysteries that should be solved,

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Speaker 2: wrongs that should be righted. Often it's about supporting the

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Speaker 2: efforts of those who seek justice, whether it's loved ones

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Speaker 2: of murder victims or the police officers who worked tirelessly

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Speaker 2: to bring closure. The top of my list is the

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine disappearance and murder of Lucille Gay Butterworth.

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Speaker 4: Twenty year old Lucille Butterworth vanished from a bus stop

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Speaker 4: at Claremont near Hobart.

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Speaker 1: She was never seen again.

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Speaker 2: Lucille was last seen around six pm on Monday, the

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth of August nineteen sixty nine, at a bus

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Speaker 2: stop on Main Road at Claremont in Hobart, Tasmania. In

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, the coroner determined that Lucille accepted a lift

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Speaker 2: from the bus stop and was murdered on the Lyle

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Speaker 2: Highway roughly halfway between Granton and New Norfolk around six

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Speaker 2: point fifteen pm. Who killed Lucille is not really a

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Speaker 2: mystery at all.

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Speaker 4: The coroner found that, on the balance of probabilities, Lucille

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Speaker 4: Butterworth was murdered by New Norfolk man Jeffrey Charles Hunt.

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Speaker 2: Like many victims, Lucille knew her killer. This came to

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Speaker 2: light during an exhaustive and excellent investigation by three detectives

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Speaker 2: from Tasmania Police, David Plumpton, Christine Rushden and Carrie Millhouse.

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Speaker 4: Despite an exhaustive investigation and a coroner's finding, no one

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Speaker 4: has ever been charged with Lucille Butterworth's murder.

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Speaker 3: So why hasn't Hunt been charged to put before the court.

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Speaker 2: That's the question for the Tasmanian Director of Public Prosecutions.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 2: Hunt remains a free man. Time is running out. Lucille's

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Speaker 2: family are steadily dying off. Only her brother John remains

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Speaker 2: and I speak to him regularly. He never gives up hope,

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Speaker 2: But I got to tell you, I'm having my doubts.

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Speaker 2: Two of the three cops who pursued Hunts so doggedly

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Speaker 2: from twenty ten have both retired now, but they will

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Speaker 2: never forget this case. Former Detective Constable Carry Millhouse is

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Speaker 2: writing a book about the investigation, and he's agreed to

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Speaker 2: talk about the fight to bring justice for Luciale.

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Speaker 3: Get a carry good.

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Speaker 2: Athnue Adam, and thank you very much for your unstinting

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Speaker 2: work on this case. You're still working on it and

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Speaker 2: even though you're retired, you should be playing at golf

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Speaker 2: and enjoying your motor home life style that you've adopted.

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Speaker 2: And your former colleague David Plumpton gave you high praise

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Speaker 2: when I called him today and I said, tell me

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Speaker 2: something about the way that Carrie regards this case. He said,

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Speaker 2: Carrie believes this matters, and it still matters today. Why

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Speaker 2: does it matter to you?

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Speaker 3: Still? Carry?

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Speaker 1: See, it's just not justice.

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Speaker 5: We know from our exhaustive investigation who's committed this abduction

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Speaker 5: of murder, and we just can't get it over the line.

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Speaker 5: I said to you earlier that I believe it's like

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Speaker 5: a computer trying to load and it's ninety nine percent

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Speaker 5: and that we were spinning. We just can't get that

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Speaker 5: one percent to get over the line with it. It's

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Speaker 5: just so frustrating. We know from what the current has

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Speaker 5: supported that our offender is Jeffrey Charles Hunt. We presented

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Speaker 5: an overwhelming case, a circumstantial case to the DPP and

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Speaker 5: in their wisdom and they justified why, but they weren't

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Speaker 5: prepared to take it on for a case.

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Speaker 2: So tell me how did you become involved in this?

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Speaker 2: Back in twenty ten, I believe.

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Speaker 5: David Plumpton was fairly newly appointed as inspected to the

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Speaker 5: Lucky solb I was already there as a constable a

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Speaker 5: little while in. I think he had a visit from

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Speaker 5: the Butterweth brothers, Jim and John to know what was

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Speaker 5: going on with the investigation, and David obviously knew nothing

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Speaker 5: about it. He may have been aware of it, but

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Speaker 5: he got the file up from the Police Academy where

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Speaker 5: it was gathering dust down there, and thought he'd have

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Speaker 5: a bit of a look. And what he did find

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Speaker 5: out was that the case had never been to an inquest.

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Speaker 5: So a way of resurrecting the inquiry, I suppose, was

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Speaker 5: to prepare it for inquest, and he asked for volunteers

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Speaker 5: in the office if anyone was keen, I was, and

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Speaker 5: I was very keen straight away, only for the reason

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Speaker 5: that I as a seven year old when she went missing.

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Speaker 5: I was aware that where Lucill went missing was close

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Speaker 5: to my home, and I always read the newspaper articles

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Speaker 5: and I always wanted to myself, I wonder what happened

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Speaker 5: to Lucille. I wonder if anyone will ever find out

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Speaker 5: what happened to her. And that was the reason I

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Speaker 5: was very interested in taking long with David Ask.

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Speaker 2: It is a real classic true crime case, this one.

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Speaker 2: The victim is almost an archetype. She was going to

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Speaker 2: be a beauty queen. She was headed to New Norfolk

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Speaker 2: that night to attend a function for Miss Tasmania as

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Speaker 2: a prelude to competing the following year herself.

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Speaker 3: She had a boyfriend in New Norfolk, John Fitzger.

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Speaker 2: She would regularly visit him up there, and the idea

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Speaker 2: was she was going to attend this function and then

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Speaker 2: meet John Fitzgerald afterwards. She never got to meet him,

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Speaker 2: and the alarm was raised the next day. The initial

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Speaker 2: investigation was, I guess typical of those years where the

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Speaker 2: police of the day, and it's hard not to be critical,

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Speaker 2: had the attitude here's another young girl who's probably gone

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Speaker 2: off with another guy or gone to the mainland, she'll

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Speaker 2: come back in a few days, And of course these

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Speaker 2: days you'd say that vital first forty eight hours, the

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Speaker 2: opportunities were missed.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know whether they certainly did say, oh yeah,

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Speaker 5: I'm sure come back. I just think it's an answer

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Speaker 5: when they don't have answers to give the family it's done.

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Speaker 5: Know whether it's a way of trying to give them reassurance,

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Speaker 5: but they certainly didn't have answers at the time. We

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Speaker 5: know for sure that she was at the bus stoping claimant.

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Speaker 5: We have four people saw her at the bus stopping claimant.

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Speaker 1: We had one.

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Speaker 5: Critical witness that said he saw her, and she had

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Speaker 5: this prominent blonde hair.

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Speaker 1: She was only had died on the friday before.

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Speaker 5: She had a beautiful black coat with white fur trim,

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Speaker 5: and she was a beautiful twenty year old. So we

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Speaker 5: had a fellow called Anthony Field. He was sitting in

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Speaker 5: a car opposite waiting for his wife to finish at

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Speaker 5: the chemist and he noticed her across at the bus stop.

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Speaker 1: His wife came out, she got in the car, they.

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Speaker 5: Drove off and he said, I'm pretty sure she wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: After I drove off, but his critical evidence.

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Speaker 5: He saw a Bomby turquoise car pull up next to

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Speaker 5: her and then soon after she was gone and saves

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Speaker 5: the car. Now that at the time in ninety sixty

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Speaker 5: ninems a critical piece of evidence. And I say critical

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Speaker 5: from what we know now. If they pursued that line

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Speaker 5: of inquiry to the degree that we do these days,

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Speaker 5: they may have had more success with it.

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Speaker 2: And they might have connected that car with Jeffrey Childs Hunt.

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Speaker 2: There was a clear connection to him, But that was

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Speaker 2: all to He happened much months later in your investigation.

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Speaker 2: In the early days, when they finally accept that Lucille

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Speaker 2: was in fact an abductee and was probably dead, they

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Speaker 2: fixated on a guy called John Gannon Lonigan, a taxi driver.

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Speaker 3: What was his form?

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Speaker 5: Well, when I said to you before that the file

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Speaker 5: was at the academy gathering dust. The file came up

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Speaker 5: and I had a look, and I took it home

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Speaker 5: and returned the next morning and said to Inspector Plumpton,

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Speaker 5: there's only one suspect, John Lonigan, because the file only

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Speaker 5: contained information relative to him. He's offending his motosot Randy

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Speaker 5: everything about him. And David said, yes, it looks that way.

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Speaker 5: But there's more information relative to jeff What he told

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Speaker 5: me then was in nineteen seventy six, Jeffrey made a

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Speaker 5: confession to Lucille's murder and disappearance.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's right, because at that moment he committed another

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Speaker 2: sex murder Susan Knight, a real estate agent. He lured

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Speaker 2: her into a meeting and had killed her hastily concealed.

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Speaker 2: Her body was picked up, and in the course of

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Speaker 2: the interview with two detectives, he offered up a confession.

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Speaker 2: Why wasn't that taken seriously back in the day. It

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Speaker 2: was quite detailed of how he picked her up at

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Speaker 2: the bus stop, had taken her along there, had got

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Speaker 2: to the location that was indicated by the coroner, and

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Speaker 2: she had a cramp in her foot or something. He

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Speaker 2: pulled over, and he said something came over him. He

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Speaker 2: tried to kiss as she struggled, He strangled her, killed her,

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Speaker 2: put her in a fireman's lift, walked into the marshy

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Speaker 2: swamps on the Dermitt River, and dumped her body. Wow,

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Speaker 2: a stunning confession which seemed to connect to the facts

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Speaker 2: of the case. I guess if that early work had

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Speaker 2: been done back in the day, back in ninety and

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Speaker 2: sixty nine.

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Speaker 1: It was an amazing confession. It wasn't just yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did that.

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Speaker 5: He went into detail with the detectives, detective Oulgarian Barry

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Speaker 5: Dylon about how we he actually took her because they

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Speaker 5: had him in custody for Susan Knight, and they thought

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Speaker 5: we might as well ask him about Lucille because they thought, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's very similar circumstances. So they asked him

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Speaker 5: and he put his hand up for it. Now, the

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Speaker 5: officer in charge, Inspector Orb Kenning, he was directly will

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Speaker 5: keep the police station back in those days, and he said,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to hear anything of it. I'll go

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Speaker 5: and have a talk to him soon as he's got

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Speaker 5: to say. So he went in there and spoke to Hunt.

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Speaker 5: He came back out of the meeting and said, no,

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Speaker 5: you blokes got it wrong. He doesn't know anything about that.

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Speaker 1: Hey. Gary and Dylan looked at each other and thought,

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Speaker 1: that's not what he told us.

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Speaker 5: So Barry Dylan went back in I believe, and the

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Speaker 5: same confession was admitted by Hunt, and they went and

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Speaker 5: said or Kening.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, he's good for it. He's put his

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Speaker 1: hand up for Lucille.

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Speaker 5: You know, he's told us all about how he did it,

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Speaker 5: and or Kenny said, look, I don't hear another thing

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Speaker 5: of it. He's in custody for Susan Knight. I don't

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Speaker 5: want that compromise. I don't want to talk about it again.

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Speaker 5: And that was the end of that. And in those

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Speaker 5: days I leave it. Today, I mean, its subordination is

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Speaker 5: quite a serious matter. But in those days you didn't

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Speaker 5: question soon your obviously who he said, don't pursue it.

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Speaker 1: They didn't pursue it.

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Speaker 2: And Canning had been convinced that Lonegan was the culprit,

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Speaker 2: and on the face of it, he was a pretty

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Speaker 2: good suspect. He was a resident of New Norfolk. He

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Speaker 2: had a history of documented sex crimes. At least one

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Speaker 2: of those crimes involved picking up a woman from a

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Speaker 2: bus stop on the afternoon of twenty fifth August sixty nine.

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Speaker 2: He'd failed to report for work. He was on his

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Speaker 2: own between the twenty third and twenty seventh. When his

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Speaker 2: wife got home, he had burns on his face and arms,

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Speaker 2: had a new pair of pajamas. There were so many

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Speaker 2: fishy things. There was also in the back garden remains

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Speaker 2: of burnt items, including bits of a makeup compact, scissors,

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Speaker 2: bits and pieces looked very very good. And even the

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Speaker 2: wife later on said that he'd done some brick work

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Speaker 2: at home because there'd been a terrible smell, and she

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Speaker 2: was convinced that Donagan had done it. Even when I

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Speaker 2: spoke to Lonigan's daughter years later, she was convinced he'd

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Speaker 2: done it. So I can understand why Canning was so

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Speaker 2: keen not to get distracted, I guess by Hunt's confession,

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Speaker 2: but Kraggy's. I would have thought that those two detectives

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Speaker 2: could have made a bit more noise on the way through,

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Speaker 2: because the record of interview, the interrogation register recorded that

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Speaker 2: Hunt could not help with Lucille at all. So he

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Speaker 2: was really painted out of the story comprehensively by Canning.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, lookorb Canning, for what I understand, was an ambitious man. Look,

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Speaker 5: he ended up becoming an assistant Commissioner, which such was

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Speaker 5: his ambition. So with Donigan, he'd obviously had his finger

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Speaker 5: on Lonigan for the whole time. And as I said,

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Speaker 5: all the statements and information pointed to Lonigan. Even I thought,

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Speaker 5: when I only had information relating to Lonigan, how could you.

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Speaker 1: Go past this guy.

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Speaker 5: But all Canning had put his career on the line

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Speaker 5: and said that John Lonigan was responsible for Lucio. Butworth

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Speaker 5: told the administration. And I guess now, if Hunt's admission

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Speaker 5: had to be taken seriously, he would have looked a

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Speaker 5: bit silly, I would have thought. So I can't say

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Speaker 5: conclusively that was the reason behind or can dismissing the admission,

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Speaker 5: but as a really battling one way, he didn't let

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Speaker 5: him pursue that more.

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Speaker 3: It really is.

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Speaker 2: And you know, that was a classic case of tunnel vision.

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Speaker 2: Had a good suspect eventually hoping you get that critical

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Speaker 2: piece of information that will put this bloke behind bars,

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Speaker 2: but it never came, and it was your job when

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Speaker 2: you got the file to tear down the hypothesis like

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Speaker 2: a good detective does. Ewan Plumpton actually found Lot again.

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Speaker 2: He was living up in Queensland, and I think from

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Speaker 2: what I read, he was pretty open about saying that

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Speaker 2: he had not done it. It admitted his past crimes,

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Speaker 2: so pretty soon I think you were able to discount

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Speaker 2: possibility he was involved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Look the fact that he was never charged or they

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Speaker 5: never got as far as actually having evidence on him

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Speaker 5: so that would suggests that maybe he wasn't responsible.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of anomalies.

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Speaker 5: Even his own wife and daughter suspected that he was

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Speaker 5: capable of something like that. He certainly was because he

256
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Speaker 5: did time in jail for sexual offenses, so he's certainly

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Speaker 5: capable of it. But because of that water's been muddied,

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Speaker 5: they failed to look at more obvious things. Now as

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Speaker 5: we know, this was seven years before Hunt did murder

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Speaker 5: Susan Knight. But there was the fact that they had

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Speaker 5: Anthony Field say he saw a turquoise holding right next

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Speaker 5: to the female. If they had pursued that better. It

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Speaker 5: wasn't until about twenty thirteen where I had conversations with

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Speaker 5: Hunt's family. Believe it or not, they'd never been spoken

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Speaker 5: to at any stage up until I spoke to them

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Speaker 5: some forty odd years later. Keen Hunt started telling me

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Speaker 5: about a car that the family had. It was a

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Speaker 5: turquoise car. Whether he said it was greeny blue, he

269
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Speaker 5: said turquoise. It was a light bulb moment familiar. I thought,

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Speaker 5: he what the family had a turquoise Bomby car.

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Speaker 1: Oh my good.

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Speaker 5: You know why forty odd years later had this information

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Speaker 5: come out? If you murder investigation today is you turn

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Speaker 5: it over every stone, you know, you look everywhere. But

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Speaker 5: back in nineteen sixty nine to in the years to follow,

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Speaker 5: that in his degree wasn't taken and they really missed.

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Speaker 1: Something they did.

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Speaker 2: And I think the other critical piece about that car

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Speaker 2: was that it had damage to one of the doors

280
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Speaker 2: that had been replaced with a different color. And your

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Speaker 2: witness Field had also seen that apparently.

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Speaker 1: Well he reported damage to.

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Speaker 5: It's quite a good detailed observation's Anthony Field.

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Speaker 1: He come from England only seven years before.

285
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Speaker 5: So his knowledge of Australian beings may not have been

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Speaker 5: as good as it could have been. So he described

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Speaker 5: it as a bomby car, and then police took a

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Speaker 5: statement from him and he described it as an FJ.

289
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Speaker 5: We don't know whether he was led by police to

290
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Speaker 5: say it was an FJ or otherwise, but he said

291
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Speaker 5: it had damage to just in front of the driver's door.

292
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Speaker 5: And when David and inspect to plumped and I interviewed Hunt,

293
00:15:12,681 --> 00:15:15,921
Speaker 5: we put that damage to him about the turquoise holding,

294
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Speaker 5: and we were gobs made for him to actually say, no,

295
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Speaker 5: my car had damage on the passenger side just in

296
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Speaker 5: front of the door. I thought, why is he even

297
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Speaker 5: volunteer that information. He's trying to explain something he didn't

298
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Speaker 5: need to explain. We don't have the car to say

299
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Speaker 5: that the damage was on the right hand side or

300
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Speaker 5: the left hand side. But he just tried to explain

301
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Speaker 5: it away. And I thought that was more remarkable.

302
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Speaker 2: To It was because by the time you got to

303
00:15:41,681 --> 00:15:46,401
Speaker 2: interview Hunt, you'd already done an exhaustive investigation. Really exemptary.

304
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Speaker 2: By the way I've got I hand it to you.

305
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Speaker 2: I've seen some pretty poor ones. This is a really

306
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Speaker 2: good one, And forty years after the fact, you're finding

307
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Speaker 2: witnesses that should have been interviewed in the first few days.

308
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Speaker 2: You start to piece together the background of Jeffrey Charles Hunt.

309
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Speaker 2: It was troubled. He was from a big family there

310
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Speaker 2: in New Norfolk. He and his brother were albinos. They'd

311
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Speaker 2: been shunned by their fellows up there. He'd had trouble

312
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Speaker 2: adjusting to society. He was also accused of an attempted

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Speaker 2: sexual assault by one of the girls in his cohort

314
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Speaker 2: there in New Norfolk. He knew, this is what you established.

315
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Speaker 2: He knew John Fitzgerald, Lucile's boyfriend. He'd even worked at

316
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Speaker 2: Clyde Fitzgerald's shop in New Norfolk. So you quickly established

317
00:16:28,601 --> 00:16:31,761
Speaker 2: a connection between the victim and your suspect, to the

318
00:16:31,801 --> 00:16:35,521
Speaker 2: point where you had a testimony from John Fitzgerald who

319
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Speaker 2: said Lucille saw Hunt looking at her over the fence

320
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Speaker 2: when she was sun baking, and she, quite in a

321
00:16:43,001 --> 00:16:46,921
Speaker 2: derogatory tone, said, Whitey is looking at me. So you

322
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Speaker 2: set up this marginalized person who's an attractive female and

323
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Speaker 2: you start to see a motive emerging here as you

324
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Speaker 2: went down that path and you're discovering Hunt's background.

325
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Speaker 3: Where did it take you?

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Speaker 5: You mentioned earlier that a sexual offense at the time,

327
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Speaker 5: and let's say it was alleged, because he was never

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Speaker 5: convicted of anything.

329
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Speaker 1: He did front Corp.

330
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Speaker 5: But it was dismissed and the victim and that case

331
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Speaker 5: was an eleven year old. This event took place in

332
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Speaker 5: a railway station just near his place. The victim's memories

333
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Speaker 5: are vague, which he does remember certain aspects of it.

334
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Speaker 5: He was charged with that offense and it went to

335
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Speaker 5: court in New Norfolk. And I believe and we could

336
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Speaker 5: never find the file. The file has been destroyed, but

337
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,041
Speaker 5: we believe he was dismissed on the grounds of identification.

338
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Speaker 5: And I don't know what aspect of identification there was

339
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Speaker 5: a problem.

340
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Speaker 1: With, but you're right he was ostracized. Him and his whole.

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Speaker 5: Family were albina apart from one sibling, so they all

342
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:52,321
Speaker 5: suffered different points of bullying and finger pointing, and I

343
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Speaker 5: believe that made it very hard for them to interact.

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Speaker 1: They didn't have many friends.

345
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Speaker 5: Jeffrey in particular, he struggled with the violence in his

346
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Speaker 5: own home. His father was very violent towards his mother,

347
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Speaker 5: and he felt very deeply for his mother. We don't

348
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,640
Speaker 5: know how mixed up he became as a result of

349
00:18:11,001 --> 00:18:11,721
Speaker 5: his upbringing.

350
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Speaker 2: And you even found out that his father, Bill, who

351
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 2: was a veteran, as you say, he was a bit

352
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Speaker 2: of a drunk and he abused his wife and the

353
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Speaker 2: kids were exposed to that, and there seemed to be

354
00:18:19,721 --> 00:18:23,001
Speaker 2: some sort of relationship between Bill and the local constabatory,

355
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Speaker 2: where I think you ran the theory that young Jeffrey

356
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,081
Speaker 2: had been protected from some consequences early on, which might

357
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Speaker 2: have been telling in the final outcome.

358
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Speaker 5: There was certainly a lot easier to cover your backside

359
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Speaker 5: in those days and look after people if you wanted to,

360
00:18:37,721 --> 00:18:41,680
Speaker 5: and I believe that, Yeah, Bill Hunt, he had a

361
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,041
Speaker 5: really good relationship with the local sergeant. He had been

362
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Speaker 5: a sergeant in Norfolk for almost a decad, I believe,

363
00:18:47,761 --> 00:18:50,281
Speaker 5: so they formed a very strong bond. They drink at

364
00:18:50,281 --> 00:18:55,361
Speaker 5: the RSL together. And there was one witness that attended

365
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:59,761
Speaker 5: the Norfolk station reporter case of his clothes been taken

366
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Speaker 5: from the clothesline, snowdropping we call it. And always in

367
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,441
Speaker 5: a conversation this witness, he spoke to the sergeant a sergeant.

368
00:19:07,481 --> 00:19:10,081
Speaker 5: Doesn't know which one he said, but the sergeant said

369
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,041
Speaker 5: to him, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know who's taken lou Sille,

370
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Speaker 5: and then he didn't discuss it any further.

371
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Speaker 1: We believe that that sergeant knew.

372
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Speaker 5: The circumstances surrounding it, but when we spoke to him,

373
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:26,001
Speaker 5: he'd suffered quite a few strokes and his reliability. We

374
00:19:26,041 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 5: couldn't really tell whether he was giving us a bit

375
00:19:30,041 --> 00:19:32,881
Speaker 5: of a run around, or whether he was genuinely forgetful

376
00:19:33,001 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 5: or otherwise. But we just think a lot of people knew,

377
00:19:36,201 --> 00:19:41,481
Speaker 5: including two Jeffrey's siblings. We can only suggest we think

378
00:19:41,521 --> 00:19:44,561
Speaker 5: they knew. We can't say conclusively, but I think two

379
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,681
Speaker 5: of the brothers were kept in the dark pretty much

380
00:19:47,721 --> 00:19:50,761
Speaker 5: by the family, and they ended up being our fantastic

381
00:19:50,801 --> 00:19:53,481
Speaker 5: witnesses to give us an insight into the family life

382
00:19:53,801 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 5: growing up and also the vehicle that the family had

383
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,001
Speaker 5: for many years. Jeffrey maintained two police in some of

384
00:20:01,041 --> 00:20:04,281
Speaker 5: those interviews and statements that he didn't know Lucille, he

385
00:20:04,321 --> 00:20:07,561
Speaker 5: didn't drive a he didn't have a license. He maintained

386
00:20:07,561 --> 00:20:10,561
Speaker 5: all that he was getting away with it because it

387
00:20:10,561 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 5: can be disproved. But when we interviewed him, we were

388
00:20:13,721 --> 00:20:16,401
Speaker 5: able to disprove all those things. It was quite pleasing

389
00:20:16,681 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 5: to see him starting to pedal backwards on some of

390
00:20:18,921 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 5: his statements because we were able to prove he had

391
00:20:20,761 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 5: a driver's license at the time of taking Lucille. We

392
00:20:23,001 --> 00:20:25,961
Speaker 5: prove he drove to work, and we proved what car

393
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,041
Speaker 5: that he drove in, which is a Bomby Turk boys

394
00:20:28,041 --> 00:20:31,521
Speaker 5: holding one way in and out of Hobart in those days,

395
00:20:31,561 --> 00:20:33,521
Speaker 5: and you know, in fact, was one road through Clamont.

396
00:20:33,521 --> 00:20:37,281
Speaker 5: You couldn't go alternate roads.

397
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:36,721
Speaker 1: No other way.

398
00:20:37,441 --> 00:20:39,561
Speaker 5: We know that he drove past that way on that

399
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,761
Speaker 5: night because he dropped a colleague off from work at

400
00:20:41,801 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 5: his home in Milwaukee. And drove past Lucille, So we

401
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 5: know he was driving, we know what time he was

402
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 5: driving past, and we know.

403
00:20:49,001 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: That he knew Lucille.

404
00:20:51,001 --> 00:20:53,361
Speaker 5: And it was quite satisfying for us to actually disprove

405
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 5: all those points. And David Plumpton in fact said in

406
00:20:58,441 --> 00:21:00,761
Speaker 5: one of your previous podcasts, we said, we can prove

407
00:21:00,801 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 5: that Jeffrey Hunter liar. We just can't prove that he's

408
00:21:03,481 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 5: a murderer.

409
00:21:05,761 --> 00:21:09,761
Speaker 2: Except that it came out of his mouth with the

410
00:21:09,801 --> 00:21:13,561
Speaker 2: police and then in jail not once, not twice, not three.

411
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 3: But four times.

412
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:20,881
Speaker 2: I believe four confessions with ringingly similar content and detail.

413
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,360
Speaker 5: During the inquest, and we presented the case. Now at

414
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,441
Speaker 5: the file we presented to the inquest with thirty blinders,

415
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,441
Speaker 5: it was extensive, included clear voyance because they were quite

416
00:21:31,441 --> 00:21:35,561
Speaker 5: popular back in the day, and actually included so much information.

417
00:21:36,321 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 5: But during the inquest, a seven week in quest, we

418
00:21:39,321 --> 00:21:42,681
Speaker 5: had three former convicts or prisoners if you like, came

419
00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:45,801
Speaker 5: forward that had spent time in prison with Hunt. Now

420
00:21:45,801 --> 00:21:49,761
Speaker 5: that all spent time with him at different points of

421
00:21:49,761 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 5: his centers. Now, jeffing Up was in JAF for twenty

422
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,041
Speaker 5: four years, so those three prisoners didn't know each other.

423
00:21:56,681 --> 00:21:59,120
Speaker 5: They didn't know each other had come forward, but they'd

424
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,241
Speaker 5: all come forward with various piece of information. Now one said,

425
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,481
Speaker 5: when I was in prison with Hunt, went up to

426
00:22:05,561 --> 00:22:07,481
Speaker 5: him and I said, hi, mate, what are you in for?

427
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 5: And Hunt said, I'm in for murder. But they haven't

428
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:11,481
Speaker 5: got me on.

429
00:22:11,441 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 1: The other one yet, they haven't found the body.

430
00:22:14,801 --> 00:22:18,801
Speaker 5: The next prisoner had a similar conversation with him and

431
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 5: Hunt spraguing about having killed Dual Butterworth completely unsolicited. Witnesses

432
00:22:23,961 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 5: come forward and Dual Butterworth, and that in itself is

433
00:22:29,001 --> 00:22:33,561
Speaker 5: fairly reliable because he knew very well the inquest was

434
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,481
Speaker 5: for Lucille Butterworth. But he quoted Hunt the way hand

435
00:22:37,561 --> 00:22:39,201
Speaker 5: said it Dual Butterworth.

436
00:22:39,761 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: Another prisoner his information was.

437
00:22:43,921 --> 00:22:46,681
Speaker 5: The conversation went along the lines of if you ever

438
00:22:46,681 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 5: want to pick up a girl, the best way is

439
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 5: should rive past the bus stop if they're looking a

440
00:22:52,241 --> 00:22:55,201
Speaker 5: little bit lost, or they're looking like they need to write.

441
00:22:55,281 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 5: He said that's the best way to pick up a girl.

442
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 5: That's quite profound as well. So that's all circumstantial evidence

443
00:23:02,681 --> 00:23:05,721
Speaker 5: on top of everything else we had. So we put

444
00:23:05,761 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 5: the matter to the DPP and to review, and we

445
00:23:08,681 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 5: thought we had an overwhelming case of circumstantial.

446
00:23:11,281 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: Events, and the coroner agreed and he came to the

447
00:23:14,281 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 2: view that Jeffrey Charles Hunt was the corpet. It's not

448
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: his role to apportion guilt or innocence, but certainly to

449
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,561
Speaker 2: play out the facts that can then be taken up

450
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,761
Speaker 2: by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I reading all the eddents,

451
00:23:26,761 --> 00:23:29,081
Speaker 2: I thought this blokes a walk up start to be charged.

452
00:23:29,281 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 2: You'd a fantastic interview with him where all the inconsistencies

453
00:23:33,041 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 2: were highlighted. You'd done the work and you tied him

454
00:23:35,961 --> 00:23:38,641
Speaker 2: to a story and his own lies in there where

455
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: he said he didn't drive the car, didn't have a license,

456
00:23:42,201 --> 00:23:44,961
Speaker 2: he always caught the bus to motors there his workplace

457
00:23:45,001 --> 00:23:48,001
Speaker 2: in Hobart. He couldn't have picked up Lucir because he

458
00:23:48,041 --> 00:23:49,481
Speaker 2: didn't have a license or a car. And this was

459
00:23:49,521 --> 00:23:52,681
Speaker 2: all false because you knew that he'd driven the whole

460
00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: family to a wedding in Lonceston prior to this. So

461
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,721
Speaker 2: you were able to put all this stunning evidence to him,

462
00:23:57,721 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: and what was his response. He started to get very

463
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: angry and pounding the table and other sort of stuff,

464
00:24:01,961 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: And it was a classic case of good cop and

465
00:24:04,201 --> 00:24:05,881
Speaker 2: bad copy. He had plumb than there who was sort

466
00:24:05,921 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 2: of jollying Hunter Long where you were delivering the killer blows,

467
00:24:09,441 --> 00:24:11,241
Speaker 2: as it were, from all the evidence that you'd created.

468
00:24:11,281 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: And I thought the ennybody was going to confess, but

469
00:24:13,321 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: he didn't. Yeah, he'd lost his He had a chance

470
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,761
Speaker 2: to confess for real and didn't take it.

471
00:24:18,761 --> 00:24:20,801
Speaker 5: It was a bit like a volleyball game. You sort

472
00:24:20,801 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 5: of set the ball up for the slam. You know,

473
00:24:22,961 --> 00:24:25,921
Speaker 5: I don't have a license. I never had a license. Okay, Jeffrey,

474
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,441
Speaker 5: when did you get your licensees? So I was nineteen

475
00:24:28,481 --> 00:24:30,281
Speaker 5: blah blah blah, And I already knew at this point

476
00:24:30,281 --> 00:24:32,921
Speaker 5: that I had some information from a former police officer

477
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,001
Speaker 5: that left the job Christmas time ninety sixty eight or

478
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 5: January by ninety sixty nine. And in those days, police

479
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 5: officers took people for their driver's license, and he actually

480
00:24:43,481 --> 00:24:46,521
Speaker 5: took Jeffrey for his driver's license. He can't remember the

481
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 5: day or date, but that particular police officer lost his

482
00:24:51,041 --> 00:24:55,401
Speaker 5: job with Tasmania Police at the Christmas in ninety sixty eight,

483
00:24:55,961 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 5: and he had already awarded Jeffrey license.

484
00:24:57,721 --> 00:25:01,121
Speaker 1: So that proved and I put that to Jeffrey and oh,

485
00:25:01,281 --> 00:25:02,041
Speaker 1: I can't be sure.

486
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,321
Speaker 5: I can't be sure of the time, but for forty

487
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,281
Speaker 5: years he's been made. I never had a license at

488
00:25:06,281 --> 00:25:08,321
Speaker 5: that time, so you know, it was those sort of

489
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 5: things where he's backtracking. And you know the same with

490
00:25:11,201 --> 00:25:14,561
Speaker 5: the car. I never drove that car, but his dad

491
00:25:14,801 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 5: literally never drove. He did not drive the car. The

492
00:25:16,961 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 5: only person to drive the car was Jeffrey, and he

493
00:25:19,921 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 5: bought that car so the whole family could take a

494
00:25:21,681 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 5: trip to Long System to a family wedding, and Jeffrey

495
00:25:25,241 --> 00:25:29,681
Speaker 5: drove that particular time. So yeah, all those all those

496
00:25:29,721 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 5: pieces of evidence were fantastic.

497
00:25:33,961 --> 00:25:36,881
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was brilliant in this interview was that Plumpton

498
00:25:37,001 --> 00:25:40,001
Speaker 2: was allowing him to extemporize on all this detail to

499
00:25:40,041 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: show his incredible recall of seeming the unimportant minutie of

500
00:25:45,481 --> 00:25:49,721
Speaker 2: his life, so obviously demonstrating his memory, and then you

501
00:25:49,761 --> 00:25:53,281
Speaker 2: would come in with specific points about Lucille. Suddenly he

502
00:25:53,321 --> 00:25:56,001
Speaker 2: would develop amnesia all life.

503
00:25:56,801 --> 00:26:00,561
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that was frustrating too, because you've got nowhere

504
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,401
Speaker 5: to go, you know very well that we've got him

505
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 5: in a corner. He just needed him to say, yeah,

506
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,281
Speaker 5: I did it. You know, that was particularly frustrating. My

507
00:26:09,921 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 5: dad was a prison officer for thirty five years. He

508
00:26:12,321 --> 00:26:14,561
Speaker 5: knew Hunt, he spent time with Hunt. He just said

509
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 5: that he's count as the shit house rat. He's very shrewd.

510
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 5: And I had a chat with Hunt outside the station

511
00:26:22,041 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 5: now just before we drove him home after the interview,

512
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,801
Speaker 5: and I was just chatting with him about It's funny

513
00:26:26,801 --> 00:26:29,281
Speaker 5: he knew my dad too. Here he put the Millhouse

514
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,521
Speaker 5: name to it, and he just started talking about it.

515
00:26:32,561 --> 00:26:35,521
Speaker 5: And he started talking to him on a casual basis

516
00:26:35,561 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 5: about nothing that's going to give him issues like his

517
00:26:38,761 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 5: dad and my dad and everything.

518
00:26:39,921 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: And oh wow, what a memory. He's just so fluent,

519
00:26:44,721 --> 00:26:45,521
Speaker 1: cunning as the word.

520
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 3: Yes.

521
00:26:46,561 --> 00:26:48,761
Speaker 2: And so those confessions came at a time when he

522
00:26:48,761 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 2: felt very secure. He was in a minimum security prison,

523
00:26:51,681 --> 00:26:53,641
Speaker 2: I think it was a prison farm, and they gave

524
00:26:53,721 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 2: him some dogs and he had some sheep, and he

525
00:26:55,441 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: felt like he had a bit of position and comfort

526
00:26:57,681 --> 00:26:59,561
Speaker 2: in life. And he was then seeking friends which he'd

527
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,681
Speaker 2: never had before in his life. So, and you don't

528
00:27:01,681 --> 00:27:04,161
Speaker 2: have that option anymore in Tasmania for a minimum security

529
00:27:04,281 --> 00:27:05,761
Speaker 2: I wonder if he could have been offered to him

530
00:27:05,761 --> 00:27:08,561
Speaker 2: that he could have served out his jail term in

531
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,681
Speaker 2: such an environment that he might have offered a confession up.

532
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,321
Speaker 1: Yeah, he may very well have done.

533
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,921
Speaker 5: But in those early days after he made that confession

534
00:27:16,921 --> 00:27:20,321
Speaker 5: and all Canning shutting down, he had uncle Max Moult,

535
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,281
Speaker 5: who's also he was a detective.

536
00:27:23,201 --> 00:27:23,881
Speaker 1: I believe that.

537
00:27:24,521 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 5: A few people who got around him family included you

538
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,241
Speaker 5: keep your mouth shut. I don't ever talk of it again.

539
00:27:31,321 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 5: If you ever asked, don't speak of it again. So

540
00:27:33,681 --> 00:27:36,001
Speaker 5: the small window with the confession was made that all

541
00:27:36,001 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 5: Canning shut down was lost. But this investigation was completely thorough.

542
00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 5: There were people that we had spoken to the meeting

543
00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 5: that Lucy went to in an all folk, no one

544
00:27:46,961 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 5: ever spoke to anyone at that meeting because, as you know,

545
00:27:50,281 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 5: John Fitzgerald was attending that meeting, and in any murder case,

546
00:27:53,961 --> 00:27:56,281
Speaker 5: you perhaps look at the de facto or the husband

547
00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 5: or the wife or the person in the relationship. And

548
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,361
Speaker 5: no one spoke to anyone at that meeting to determine

549
00:28:01,561 --> 00:28:03,761
Speaker 5: John Fitzgerald's demeanor, you.

550
00:28:03,721 --> 00:28:06,401
Speaker 1: Know he was or otherwise.

551
00:28:07,481 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: It just seems so incomplete, Yeah, very incomplete. And I

552
00:28:13,201 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: guess we could have thought that Jeffrey Charles Hunt was

553
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,521
Speaker 2: out of sight out of mind. He was serving a

554
00:28:17,561 --> 00:28:20,681
Speaker 2: life sentence without the prospect of parole back in those

555
00:28:20,761 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: days when you had those sort of sentences, and then

556
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: there was a change.

557
00:28:23,761 --> 00:28:25,801
Speaker 3: He was given a minimum sentence and he.

558
00:28:25,761 --> 00:28:28,241
Speaker 2: Gets out and pretty soon we start to hear stories

559
00:28:28,281 --> 00:28:32,521
Speaker 2: about him hanging around caravan parks where there were women

560
00:28:32,961 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 2: and possibly going back to his old tricks. This bloke

561
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,161
Speaker 2: is a recalcitrant sex offender who should never have been released.

562
00:28:41,161 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 5: In my opinion, yeah, absolutely, I can agree with that,

563
00:28:45,001 --> 00:28:48,561
Speaker 5: and I can't clarify his behavior after that time, but

564
00:28:48,681 --> 00:28:52,761
Speaker 5: I know that prior to murdering Susan Knight in nineteen

565
00:28:52,761 --> 00:28:56,801
Speaker 5: seventy six, he become very tempted in a lot of ways.

566
00:28:57,001 --> 00:29:01,841
Speaker 5: There was people that he was pursuing prior to the murder,

567
00:29:02,001 --> 00:29:05,841
Speaker 5: in the months prior, trying to set them up in

568
00:29:05,881 --> 00:29:10,121
Speaker 5: the end the way that Susan Knight was taken down unfortunately.

569
00:29:10,521 --> 00:29:14,681
Speaker 5: For example, Jeffrey Hunt, he responded to a notice in

570
00:29:14,721 --> 00:29:17,801
Speaker 5: the local newspaper a nineteen year old girl had offered

571
00:29:17,841 --> 00:29:21,121
Speaker 5: her services as a babysitter, so it was advertised in

572
00:29:21,161 --> 00:29:25,241
Speaker 5: the miscellaneous part of the newspaper and said Hunt was

573
00:29:25,601 --> 00:29:29,521
Speaker 5: replied to it ringing her and said I've got two

574
00:29:29,641 --> 00:29:33,201
Speaker 5: children the agents of this and that can we meet

575
00:29:33,241 --> 00:29:36,121
Speaker 5: to discuss it? So on the Monday morning that was

576
00:29:36,161 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 5: the arranged time he rocked up at her house. He

577
00:29:40,241 --> 00:29:42,321
Speaker 5: must have been sitting off it because once her husband

578
00:29:42,401 --> 00:29:45,921
Speaker 5: left for work, he knocked on the door some hour early.

579
00:29:47,001 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 5: She was still dressed in her NightWare. It turned out

580
00:29:49,761 --> 00:29:52,921
Speaker 5: to be a neglige. She told us an interview was

581
00:29:52,961 --> 00:29:55,001
Speaker 5: the one she worn on a honeymoon, so she was

582
00:29:55,081 --> 00:29:58,481
Speaker 5: quite attractive to Hunt, so she felt uncomfortable she invited

583
00:29:58,521 --> 00:30:02,081
Speaker 5: him in anyway. That started to discuss the circumstances around

584
00:30:02,841 --> 00:30:07,081
Speaker 5: his children being babysat without notice. He then lunged at

585
00:30:07,161 --> 00:30:10,401
Speaker 5: her on the couch. He grabbed her and graped her,

586
00:30:10,441 --> 00:30:13,201
Speaker 5: and she screamed. And she was on the lower level

587
00:30:13,201 --> 00:30:15,641
Speaker 5: of a townhouse, and the people upstairs can be heard

588
00:30:15,721 --> 00:30:19,361
Speaker 5: running across the floor, obviously to see what the screams were,

589
00:30:19,641 --> 00:30:24,321
Speaker 5: at which point Hunt then fled the apartment and left. Now,

590
00:30:24,361 --> 00:30:27,401
Speaker 5: this particular witness gave a statement to police and described

591
00:30:27,721 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 5: who he was. He wasn't identified until he was in

592
00:30:31,521 --> 00:30:34,361
Speaker 5: custody for the murder and on TV, and then she

593
00:30:34,401 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 5: went to police and said that man that's on TV

594
00:30:36,841 --> 00:30:39,881
Speaker 5: for that particular matter, he was the man that attacked me.

595
00:30:40,321 --> 00:30:43,841
Speaker 5: The police officers at the time said, well, look, he's

596
00:30:43,881 --> 00:30:48,521
Speaker 5: in custody now for a serious matter and he's unlikely

597
00:30:48,561 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 5: beginning out of jail, and they never pursued her sexual

598
00:30:51,281 --> 00:30:55,841
Speaker 5: assault case, and that lady today still grieves over that

599
00:30:56,001 --> 00:30:56,761
Speaker 5: lack of justice.

600
00:30:58,521 --> 00:31:02,641
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean this guy seriously, he's better off in jail.

601
00:31:03,041 --> 00:31:06,961
Speaker 2: He finally gets parole and has plans to leave Tasmania

602
00:31:07,001 --> 00:31:10,641
Speaker 2: to get a caravan and drive around Australia. My goodness,

603
00:31:10,681 --> 00:31:14,641
Speaker 2: what an opportunity for a sex offender without regret, to

604
00:31:14,681 --> 00:31:18,401
Speaker 2: take up his old profession once more. And luckily that

605
00:31:18,561 --> 00:31:21,041
Speaker 2: was stopped and the parole his conditions were changed, so

606
00:31:21,041 --> 00:31:23,881
Speaker 2: he has to remain within Tasmania. So he finds himself

607
00:31:24,361 --> 00:31:27,041
Speaker 2: put in a let's say, a northern Tasmanian town. I'm

608
00:31:27,041 --> 00:31:28,921
Speaker 2: not going to reveal the town because there's enough people

609
00:31:29,081 --> 00:31:31,361
Speaker 2: hastling him already. I've got no sympathy for him, but

610
00:31:31,361 --> 00:31:33,601
Speaker 2: he is in a kind of purgatory where he's better

611
00:31:33,641 --> 00:31:34,321
Speaker 2: off in jail.

612
00:31:34,641 --> 00:31:35,721
Speaker 3: And in fact, I went to the.

613
00:31:35,681 --> 00:31:38,961
Speaker 2: Location where he is a few years ago and I

614
00:31:39,001 --> 00:31:42,001
Speaker 2: was told that it'll all be dark. He doesn't come out.

615
00:31:42,241 --> 00:31:43,761
Speaker 2: He only comes out to go and see his parole

616
00:31:43,801 --> 00:31:46,601
Speaker 2: officer in Devonport. The only way you'll know he's in

617
00:31:46,641 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: there is the heating pipe will be on, it'll be warm.

618
00:31:49,761 --> 00:31:52,041
Speaker 2: So sure enough it was warm, and he was in there.

619
00:31:52,121 --> 00:31:54,121
Speaker 2: And I spent most of the night in an awful

620
00:31:54,161 --> 00:31:58,121
Speaker 2: Tasmanian weather was pouring and shocking. And the next time

621
00:31:58,121 --> 00:32:00,041
Speaker 2: I missed him and he's gone off to his appointment

622
00:32:00,081 --> 00:32:02,361
Speaker 2: in Devonport. And I happened to catch him on the

623
00:32:02,401 --> 00:32:05,281
Speaker 2: way out, and I decided not to confront him him

624
00:32:05,681 --> 00:32:08,161
Speaker 2: but to follow him to see what he did. And

625
00:32:08,201 --> 00:32:09,881
Speaker 2: he had to walk I think about a four hundred

626
00:32:09,881 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: meter journey back to the place where he's getting his

627
00:32:11,721 --> 00:32:14,281
Speaker 2: community bust to his residence. But he did this two

628
00:32:14,281 --> 00:32:17,201
Speaker 2: and a half three kilometer secuitous route which was clearly

629
00:32:17,241 --> 00:32:20,601
Speaker 2: about Canas surveillance that he knew people were following him.

630
00:32:20,801 --> 00:32:22,321
Speaker 2: So I thought, this, what sort of life is this

631
00:32:22,361 --> 00:32:25,601
Speaker 2: bloke got? He's living on his own. Family, I don't

632
00:32:25,601 --> 00:32:28,081
Speaker 2: think talks to him very much, and there he is.

633
00:32:28,441 --> 00:32:32,801
Speaker 2: I meanwhile, this whole case is just I was reflecting

634
00:32:32,801 --> 00:32:35,801
Speaker 2: this afternoon carry actually that what happens to these cases

635
00:32:35,841 --> 00:32:38,681
Speaker 2: where all the witnesses die off. A lot of people

636
00:32:38,721 --> 00:32:42,161
Speaker 2: you spoke to fifteen years ago are probably dead now

637
00:32:42,561 --> 00:32:45,121
Speaker 2: or their memories have failed. Could they even go before

638
00:32:45,161 --> 00:32:48,681
Speaker 2: a court. Lucille's parents are dead. Her brother Jimmy, who

639
00:32:48,681 --> 00:32:51,921
Speaker 2: had driven the investigation for years as also did him,

640
00:32:51,961 --> 00:32:54,681
Speaker 2: went up there to Hunt's town and I thought was

641
00:32:54,681 --> 00:32:57,841
Speaker 2: going to murder him, and you're offside of Plumpton had

642
00:32:57,881 --> 00:32:59,801
Speaker 2: to virtually cut him off at the past, so he

643
00:32:59,801 --> 00:33:03,521
Speaker 2: didn't do that. Jimmy's gone, John Fitzgerald, the boyfriend's gone.

644
00:33:03,761 --> 00:33:05,681
Speaker 2: There's only one brother left, John butter Worth. And it

645
00:33:05,721 --> 00:33:07,841
Speaker 2: was so sad a few years ago when in anger

646
00:33:07,881 --> 00:33:10,161
Speaker 2: and frustration he goes down there to the spot where

647
00:33:10,201 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: you believe Blue Seal was dumped for one of a

648
00:33:12,961 --> 00:33:16,641
Speaker 2: better word, with a shovel and was digging himself, had

649
00:33:16,641 --> 00:33:18,921
Speaker 2: his scuba gear out, was diving in the river himself,

650
00:33:19,321 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: hoping against hope that something would be just. So something

651
00:33:22,081 --> 00:33:25,001
Speaker 2: was being done. Of course, the way the Dermot works,

652
00:33:25,401 --> 00:33:28,521
Speaker 2: if Hunt had put her body in the river would

653
00:33:28,521 --> 00:33:31,001
Speaker 2: have been taken by the current, probably the same day,

654
00:33:31,241 --> 00:33:32,081
Speaker 2: fast flowing river.

655
00:33:33,321 --> 00:33:35,881
Speaker 5: Look, the reason we looked at that particular spot, because

656
00:33:36,001 --> 00:33:39,001
Speaker 5: when he confessed in nineteen seventy six, he actually identify

657
00:33:39,121 --> 00:33:41,721
Speaker 5: where he had dubb Bluse Hill, and he was specific

658
00:33:42,281 --> 00:33:44,801
Speaker 5: in the fact that he said, as you said earlier,

659
00:33:45,281 --> 00:33:48,681
Speaker 5: he tried to kiss her, she resisted. He then, I

660
00:33:48,761 --> 00:33:53,121
Speaker 5: don't know what overcame me and strangled, strangled it to death.

661
00:33:53,321 --> 00:33:56,041
Speaker 5: And then in his admissions, he said he took her

662
00:33:56,481 --> 00:33:59,321
Speaker 5: in a fireman's carry out of the vehicle to walk

663
00:33:59,361 --> 00:34:02,841
Speaker 5: towards the river through the shrubs and dumped her. Then

664
00:34:02,841 --> 00:34:04,881
Speaker 5: he said got back to the car, one of the

665
00:34:04,881 --> 00:34:07,961
Speaker 5: shoes still there and her handbag, so he also took

666
00:34:08,001 --> 00:34:11,361
Speaker 5: them out as well, So his emission was very specific.

667
00:34:11,601 --> 00:34:12,761
Speaker 1: Now, we for.

668
00:34:12,761 --> 00:34:16,121
Speaker 5: One month dug an area around that particular point. We

669
00:34:16,161 --> 00:34:20,121
Speaker 5: had nineteen sixty nine satellite aera photography from that particular site,

670
00:34:20,161 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 5: so we can see what it looked like in ninetly

671
00:34:22,481 --> 00:34:24,281
Speaker 5: sixty nine and we can see what it looked like today.

672
00:34:24,441 --> 00:34:29,081
Speaker 5: It was very similar in appearance. But where police dug

673
00:34:29,441 --> 00:34:33,041
Speaker 5: recently was in an area that was obviously an open

674
00:34:33,121 --> 00:34:37,561
Speaker 5: space where Hunt said he took her out towards the river. Now,

675
00:34:38,441 --> 00:34:41,561
Speaker 5: I'd say the river from his car would be one

676
00:34:41,641 --> 00:34:44,121
Speaker 5: hundred and fifty meters. We don't know how far he

677
00:34:44,161 --> 00:34:46,801
Speaker 5: walked out, but that area where he walked out was

678
00:34:46,841 --> 00:34:50,081
Speaker 5: never looked at because of swamp land. At the time

679
00:34:50,121 --> 00:34:54,001
Speaker 5: of our our digging excavation. It was a king tie,

680
00:34:54,041 --> 00:34:58,121
Speaker 5: would you believe, So right up to where his car

681
00:34:58,161 --> 00:35:01,721
Speaker 5: would have been, we had tider water, so it was

682
00:35:01,761 --> 00:35:05,881
Speaker 5: impossible to actually dig anywhere outside there area that we had,

683
00:35:06,321 --> 00:35:09,321
Speaker 5: and the area that we had was simply not the

684
00:35:09,361 --> 00:35:11,721
Speaker 5: place because it was just a car park basically.

685
00:35:11,881 --> 00:35:13,881
Speaker 1: Now, that area back in sixty.

686
00:35:13,681 --> 00:35:17,081
Speaker 5: Nine was used by main roads when they were building

687
00:35:17,081 --> 00:35:20,161
Speaker 5: the highway to double the gravel their excavators and everything,

688
00:35:20,561 --> 00:35:23,001
Speaker 5: so that's why that was there. So that was a

689
00:35:23,081 --> 00:35:25,841
Speaker 5: site that people use to go parking with their other

690
00:35:27,281 --> 00:35:31,001
Speaker 5: and smooch and etc. And we believe from what we

691
00:35:31,081 --> 00:35:33,001
Speaker 5: can see from the era of photography that there was

692
00:35:33,561 --> 00:35:35,601
Speaker 5: a bit of an alcove where he could actually drive

693
00:35:35,601 --> 00:35:38,121
Speaker 5: in there not be seen from the main road and

694
00:35:38,721 --> 00:35:41,681
Speaker 5: the rest history. We certainly believe that's the spot where

695
00:35:41,801 --> 00:35:42,521
Speaker 5: it would have been.

696
00:35:43,881 --> 00:35:46,641
Speaker 2: And this was at corroborated by one of the convict witnesses,

697
00:35:46,681 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: if you like. Philip Paris said much the same sort

698
00:35:48,961 --> 00:35:52,161
Speaker 2: of thing. So it's quite mystifying what happens now, because

699
00:35:52,201 --> 00:35:54,961
Speaker 2: it must have been so disappointing to you when the

700
00:35:55,001 --> 00:35:59,081
Speaker 2: coroner was so emphatic about the excellent investigation, the mountains

701
00:35:59,081 --> 00:36:04,281
Speaker 2: of circumstantial evidence, but the DPP declined to put him

702
00:36:04,281 --> 00:36:04,881
Speaker 2: before the court.

703
00:36:05,601 --> 00:36:05,881
Speaker 1: Yeah.

704
00:36:06,001 --> 00:36:10,441
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, the matters before a coroner not admissible in a

705
00:36:10,481 --> 00:36:13,041
Speaker 5: Supreme court, So anything that was said in there is

706
00:36:13,041 --> 00:36:16,241
Speaker 5: not admissible and couldn't be used. But what happened in

707
00:36:16,281 --> 00:36:19,521
Speaker 5: the inquest for one day, Hump was afforded one day's defense.

708
00:36:20,521 --> 00:36:23,801
Speaker 5: In that one day's defense, they had a lawyer come in,

709
00:36:23,841 --> 00:36:26,841
Speaker 5: a good criminal lawyer come in and start crossing examining

710
00:36:26,881 --> 00:36:29,401
Speaker 5: some of our witnesses. And the way he tore down

711
00:36:29,441 --> 00:36:33,401
Speaker 5: one of those ex prisoners and Jeffrey's brother King, it

712
00:36:33,521 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 5: was really harsh. Everyone's seen it on TV, the way

713
00:36:36,481 --> 00:36:40,041
Speaker 5: they defense lawyers work. He tore them up pretty much

714
00:36:40,721 --> 00:36:43,801
Speaker 5: about the unreliability of their memories and it was really

715
00:36:43,801 --> 00:36:47,121
Speaker 5: hard to watch. So I imagine if we did ever get

716
00:36:47,281 --> 00:36:50,241
Speaker 5: the matter to a court based on circumstantial evidence, it

717
00:36:50,241 --> 00:36:53,201
Speaker 5: would be very, very hard to convict, and I think

718
00:36:53,241 --> 00:36:56,201
Speaker 5: that's probably how the DPP saw it. With as you said, Adam,

719
00:36:56,481 --> 00:36:59,041
Speaker 5: the witnesses all dying out, and we've lost a lot

720
00:36:59,041 --> 00:37:01,321
Speaker 5: more since the two thousand and sixth An inquest as well.

721
00:37:01,961 --> 00:37:06,561
Speaker 5: But the unreliability of memory defense would tear that apart.

722
00:37:06,681 --> 00:37:08,841
Speaker 1: It'd be hard to watch well.

723
00:37:09,001 --> 00:37:10,641
Speaker 2: But you've got to put your faith in juries to

724
00:37:10,641 --> 00:37:14,641
Speaker 2: occasionally get this right, because you had the stunning precedent

725
00:37:14,761 --> 00:37:18,001
Speaker 2: really where you had the murder of alleged murder of

726
00:37:18,041 --> 00:37:22,081
Speaker 2: Bob Chappell by his partner Syni Or Fraser in two

727
00:37:22,121 --> 00:37:25,481
Speaker 2: thousand and nine, where there was no body again, a

728
00:37:25,481 --> 00:37:29,601
Speaker 2: lot of circumstantial evidence, a lot of post offense conduct

729
00:37:29,681 --> 00:37:32,361
Speaker 2: issues like lies, and they were able to convict syon

730
00:37:32,361 --> 00:37:33,041
Speaker 2: Neil Fraser.

731
00:37:33,441 --> 00:37:35,121
Speaker 3: And I think there was less evidence in that case.

732
00:37:35,121 --> 00:37:38,401
Speaker 2: And I wonder whether this is a bit of judicial conservatism.

733
00:37:38,841 --> 00:37:42,561
Speaker 2: The previous DPP tim Ellis had been fairly i'd say

734
00:37:42,681 --> 00:37:45,641
Speaker 2: adventurous by bringing that case to Cord he had success.

735
00:37:46,081 --> 00:37:47,281
Speaker 3: Do you think you're a victim of that?

736
00:37:48,001 --> 00:37:52,281
Speaker 5: Well, I can speculate in that direction, and I actually

737
00:37:52,281 --> 00:37:55,601
Speaker 5: have said that looking at the circumstantial events related to

738
00:37:56,361 --> 00:38:00,361
Speaker 5: Sir Neil Fraser, I believe that the Hunt and Butterworth

739
00:38:00,401 --> 00:38:03,361
Speaker 5: case we had so much more circumstantial evidence, but couldn't

740
00:38:03,361 --> 00:38:07,441
Speaker 5: get over the line. And I actually saw the coroner

741
00:38:07,801 --> 00:38:10,241
Speaker 5: just in a casual conversation. I said, oh, they're not

742
00:38:10,321 --> 00:38:13,361
Speaker 5: running with it, and the jaw dropped and they're not

743
00:38:14,041 --> 00:38:17,401
Speaker 5: like that. I mean, he had to stay reasonably professional,

744
00:38:17,401 --> 00:38:20,441
Speaker 5: but I could see his surprise after knowing what we know.

745
00:38:21,841 --> 00:38:24,481
Speaker 3: Mmm, so do you feel like this is unfinished business

746
00:38:24,481 --> 00:38:24,681
Speaker 3: for you?

747
00:38:24,761 --> 00:38:25,041
Speaker 2: Carry?

748
00:38:26,521 --> 00:38:27,481
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.

749
00:38:27,841 --> 00:38:29,921
Speaker 5: I always hope that I'm going to get a phone

750
00:38:29,921 --> 00:38:31,641
Speaker 5: call one day to say, look, Hunt wants to speak

751
00:38:31,681 --> 00:38:36,321
Speaker 5: to you. We know he's done it. We absolutely know.

752
00:38:36,961 --> 00:38:40,041
Speaker 5: And the two of the brothers have said he's done this.

753
00:38:40,361 --> 00:38:43,041
Speaker 1: You know they know. People close to this know.

754
00:38:43,241 --> 00:38:47,681
Speaker 5: We all know John Boworth. He's not been able to

755
00:38:47,721 --> 00:38:50,841
Speaker 5: move forward with his life ever because you know, he

756
00:38:50,881 --> 00:38:53,201
Speaker 5: promises mum. You know, we'll never give up on this, Mum.

757
00:38:53,241 --> 00:38:56,241
Speaker 5: We'll find Lucille for you. We'll never give up. And

758
00:38:56,281 --> 00:39:00,201
Speaker 5: I saw John only this month and I said to him, look,

759
00:39:00,361 --> 00:39:03,041
Speaker 5: be satisfied. You've you've honored your comment to your mum.

760
00:39:03,201 --> 00:39:05,681
Speaker 5: I said, we know what happened to steal, we know

761
00:39:05,721 --> 00:39:08,681
Speaker 5: where she is. Forgive yourself, John, if you've done what

762
00:39:08,801 --> 00:39:12,601
Speaker 5: you can. We're not going to give up until a

763
00:39:12,681 --> 00:39:15,961
Speaker 5: space until Hunt dies and then Neill take that, you

764
00:39:16,081 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 5: take that with him. But yeah, it's a murderer who's

765
00:39:20,001 --> 00:39:20,641
Speaker 5: got away with it.

766
00:39:20,681 --> 00:39:20,921
Speaker 1: Really.

767
00:39:22,161 --> 00:39:25,001
Speaker 2: Hunt was born in nineteen fifty, makes him seventy five.

768
00:39:25,041 --> 00:39:28,161
Speaker 2: Now he's not getting any younger. All the witnesses are dying.

769
00:39:28,481 --> 00:39:30,081
Speaker 2: You wonder what happens to this case. So what happens

770
00:39:30,081 --> 00:39:31,881
Speaker 2: when he dies? Do you think the police just stop?

771
00:39:31,961 --> 00:39:33,881
Speaker 2: Is that what happens in these cases when there's no

772
00:39:33,881 --> 00:39:35,001
Speaker 2: longer anybody to lock up.

773
00:39:35,721 --> 00:39:39,321
Speaker 5: The potential for prosecution is pretty much done, so it

774
00:39:39,401 --> 00:39:42,081
Speaker 5: can only be convicted in the public call of opinion

775
00:39:42,161 --> 00:39:45,601
Speaker 5: as they call it. I think it's so frustrating because

776
00:39:46,121 --> 00:39:50,481
Speaker 5: the whole Naufai community they all know, everyone knows, but

777
00:39:50,561 --> 00:39:54,081
Speaker 5: we just can't get the man convicted of Lucille's death.

778
00:39:54,681 --> 00:39:55,881
Speaker 3: It's up to him, really, isn't it.

779
00:39:55,961 --> 00:39:57,921
Speaker 2: Listen, Carry you've done your best, along with Plumping and

780
00:39:57,961 --> 00:39:59,561
Speaker 2: Christine Rush and a fantastic team.

781
00:39:59,881 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: You can be proud of yourselves what you did.

782
00:40:01,801 --> 00:40:04,281
Speaker 2: And really, for police officers, it's not about the result,

783
00:40:04,481 --> 00:40:07,681
Speaker 2: it's about the process. Doing everything you can to honor

784
00:40:07,721 --> 00:40:11,281
Speaker 2: your promises to family and loved ones that everything shall

785
00:40:11,361 --> 00:40:13,641
Speaker 2: be done. No stones should be left unturned. And I

786
00:40:13,641 --> 00:40:16,081
Speaker 2: think this was an exemporary investigation of which you can

787
00:40:16,121 --> 00:40:19,681
Speaker 2: be dutifully proud, because this was one of those things

788
00:40:19,681 --> 00:40:21,441
Speaker 2: where you didn't really get a lot of support for

789
00:40:21,441 --> 00:40:22,281
Speaker 2: the whole investigation.

790
00:40:22,481 --> 00:40:23,601
Speaker 3: You did it off the side of.

791
00:40:23,561 --> 00:40:26,761
Speaker 2: Your desk, almost a part time investigation amongst everything else

792
00:40:27,081 --> 00:40:28,521
Speaker 2: that you were dealing with at.

793
00:40:28,361 --> 00:40:29,281
Speaker 3: The dass of CIB.

794
00:40:29,961 --> 00:40:31,961
Speaker 5: That's right, as I said, inspect to plump and ask

795
00:40:32,041 --> 00:40:35,161
Speaker 5: for anyone to volunteer to put the matter to an inquest.

796
00:40:35,201 --> 00:40:36,641
Speaker 1: So I'll put my hand up.

797
00:40:37,241 --> 00:40:41,281
Speaker 5: So along with other duties, I started investigating Lucille, and

798
00:40:41,321 --> 00:40:43,961
Speaker 5: to the point where I was sometimes afforded two or

799
00:40:43,961 --> 00:40:46,241
Speaker 5: three weeks specifically for Lucille, but then I had to

800
00:40:46,241 --> 00:40:49,601
Speaker 5: go back to my volume of crime carburgs and homeburgs,

801
00:40:49,601 --> 00:40:53,161
Speaker 5: et cetera. So it really was just how we managed

802
00:40:53,201 --> 00:40:55,241
Speaker 5: to afford it. And you mentioned Christine Russia and when

803
00:40:56,201 --> 00:40:58,721
Speaker 5: I managed to gather so much information that had becoming

804
00:40:59,201 --> 00:41:02,041
Speaker 5: overwhelming because if I speak to one person that at

805
00:41:02,121 --> 00:41:04,441
Speaker 5: least to five more, those five lead to another five

806
00:41:04,601 --> 00:41:08,721
Speaker 5: and then you've got more questions than answers. So Christine

807
00:41:08,801 --> 00:41:12,241
Speaker 5: come on board as an analyst and started documenting everything

808
00:41:12,241 --> 00:41:15,921
Speaker 5: and did analytical reports which were absolutely top class. And

809
00:41:15,921 --> 00:41:18,361
Speaker 5: that's how we rolled and David plumped and oversaw the

810
00:41:19,241 --> 00:41:22,681
Speaker 5: whole matter. So it wasn't a case of let's get

811
00:41:22,681 --> 00:41:24,361
Speaker 5: this cold case team on it. We did it on

812
00:41:24,401 --> 00:41:27,361
Speaker 5: the side of our desk, as we say, And after

813
00:41:27,721 --> 00:41:30,601
Speaker 5: David came forward and asked volunteers, took five more years

814
00:41:30,601 --> 00:41:31,561
Speaker 5: to get that do inquest.

815
00:41:31,761 --> 00:41:32,761
Speaker 1: So that's how long it took.

816
00:41:33,521 --> 00:41:35,841
Speaker 2: Yeah, well done, But I really appreciate that on behalf

817
00:41:35,881 --> 00:41:38,321
Speaker 2: of the Blue Seal and her family, So thanks very much,

818
00:41:38,601 --> 00:41:46,161
Speaker 2: thank you. That was Curry Milhouse, retired Tasmanian detective on

819
00:41:46,281 --> 00:41:49,241
Speaker 2: the ongoing mystery into the fate of Blue Seal.

820
00:41:49,361 --> 00:41:50,841
Speaker 3: But it worth not really a mystery at all.

821
00:41:50,841 --> 00:41:53,841
Speaker 2: This is normally the moment where I say, anybody with

822
00:41:53,881 --> 00:41:56,281
Speaker 2: evidence should come forward, call crime Stoppers one OU hundred,

823
00:41:56,281 --> 00:41:57,321
Speaker 2: triple three, triple zero.

824
00:41:57,401 --> 00:42:00,001
Speaker 3: But there is no mystery here. We know who did it.

825
00:42:00,001 --> 00:42:02,201
Speaker 2: It's now up to Jeffrey Charles Hunt to search his

826
00:42:02,281 --> 00:42:05,801
Speaker 2: soul and see if he can come forward to resolve this.

827
00:42:06,721 --> 00:42:09,561
Speaker 2: If he has any belief in God or the afterlife,

828
00:42:09,721 --> 00:42:11,921
Speaker 2: this is his moment to clear his conscience. I'm not

829
00:42:11,921 --> 00:42:14,761
Speaker 2: sure that he will. He's deep in denial, deep in

830
00:42:15,121 --> 00:42:18,761
Speaker 2: self justification. That's often what happens in these cases. But

831
00:42:18,801 --> 00:42:21,041
Speaker 2: it is a terrible shame, and I do feel a

832
00:42:21,041 --> 00:42:23,441
Speaker 2: little bit of despair for the family and that they

833
00:42:23,521 --> 00:42:25,921
Speaker 2: put so much into this investigation, so much hope in

834
00:42:25,961 --> 00:42:28,241
Speaker 2: the police would do the right thing, and they did,

835
00:42:28,721 --> 00:42:32,081
Speaker 2: only to be disappointed by the Director of Public Prosecutions.

836
00:42:32,121 --> 00:42:35,361
Speaker 2: I understand the limitations with which they work, but still

837
00:42:35,801 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: this was a very good case and Lucille her memory, unfortunately,

838
00:42:41,601 --> 00:42:45,601
Speaker 2: may be lost, replaced by new cold cases, by new

839
00:42:46,561 --> 00:42:49,481
Speaker 2: tragedies that are failed to be investigated. We sometimes we

840
00:42:49,481 --> 00:42:51,521
Speaker 2: don't learn the lessons. You see this in so many

841
00:42:51,561 --> 00:42:54,841
Speaker 2: areas of the criminal law. The same mistakes keep getting

842
00:42:54,841 --> 00:42:57,841
Speaker 2: made over and over again. Now with excuses of lack

843
00:42:57,881 --> 00:43:01,841
Speaker 2: of resources, lack of staff. Things get done once over lightly.

844
00:43:02,401 --> 00:43:05,561
Speaker 2: But the dead only deserve the truth. And this is

845
00:43:05,601 --> 00:43:09,361
Speaker 2: what Carrie and his mates in Tasmania Police did for Lucille.

846
00:43:09,441 --> 00:43:12,601
Speaker 2: Unfortunately it wasn't enough anyway, No much more we can

847
00:43:12,601 --> 00:43:14,721
Speaker 2: do with at the moment. But if someone does have

848
00:43:14,761 --> 00:43:17,961
Speaker 2: some information, please come forward, anything at all. Maybe he's

849
00:43:18,001 --> 00:43:20,481
Speaker 2: told somebody else, Maybe there's one more piece of evidence

850
00:43:20,801 --> 00:43:23,921
Speaker 2: that can be the final piece that says to Jeffrey

851
00:43:24,001 --> 00:43:28,321
Speaker 2: charles On, it's time to confess. Thanks once again for listening.

852
00:43:28,441 --> 00:43:30,521
Speaker 2: If you like the podcast, please subscribe, share it with

853
00:43:30,561 --> 00:43:33,201
Speaker 2: your friends. This has been real crime with Adam shanned.

854
00:43:33,321 --> 00:43:34,121
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening.