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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: I first met recently retired Queensland homicide cop Detective Senior

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Darren Edwards when our paths crossed on one of

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Speaker 1: the country's biggest murder investigations. That was the hunt for

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Speaker 1: the killers of a man called Terry Falconer, who was murdered,

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Speaker 1: dismembered and had his body dumped in the river. Today,

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Speaker 1: I caught up with Darren to talk about his impressive

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Speaker 1: career and how he came to my aid when we

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Speaker 1: were pursuing a contract killer across borders. We also spoke

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Speaker 1: about how he arrested Daniel Morcamb's killer, Brett Cowen, and

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Speaker 1: his involvement with Cowen years before he murdered Daniel Darren.

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Speaker 1: When you were working in the Northern Territory, you arrested

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Speaker 1: Brett Cowen, who was found out to be the person

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Speaker 1: responsible for the murder of Daniel Morecambe. You arrested him

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Speaker 1: years before that, and you in fact were involved in

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Speaker 1: the arrest of Cowen for Daniel Morkham's murder years later

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Speaker 1: in Northern Territory. What was the offense that he got

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Speaker 1: locked up for there? Can you tell us the circumstances

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Speaker 1: of that.

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Speaker 2: He had been living out a caravan park BP Palms,

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Speaker 2: just passed Barrama out towards Palmerston. He'd been living there

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Speaker 2: and the young young boy he was abducted essentially by Cown,

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Speaker 2: taken into because it was all bush around that area,

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Speaker 2: he was sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 1: How old was the child?

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Speaker 2: He was around five, I think by memory, but he

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Speaker 2: only had kind of a been able to communicate, probably

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Speaker 2: more like a three year old like he didn't have

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Speaker 2: any specific handicap as such, but he didn't have great

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Speaker 2: communication skills for a boy of that little age. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: Cowen was living there. As I said, we'd done quite

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Speaker 2: an extensive investigation around every mile, looking at the characters.

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Speaker 2: Fairly isolated caravan park opposite industry area. I was one

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Speaker 2: of the more junior dective senior constables there at the time,

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Speaker 2: but we did a door knock of that caravan park.

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Speaker 2: Some interesting characters we came across during that thing. One

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Speaker 2: lady I'd interviewed there gave him a bit of an

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Speaker 2: alibi about Cown having come there, and provided a video

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Speaker 2: to him at this time, and the next day she

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Speaker 2: contacted me and said, look, I hadn't told you the

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Speaker 2: quiet truth. He told me to tell you that he'd

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Speaker 2: brought this video. There's time to try and alibi his

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Speaker 2: movements up around the boy for the exactly And the

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Speaker 2: boy had wandered into the caravan park days and he

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Speaker 2: had badly swollen eyes, He had obvious marks around his neck,

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Speaker 2: He was bleeding from his buttock, which was as a

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Speaker 2: result of kaw On having choked him out, And as

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Speaker 2: I said later on examination, there was smurm on his

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Speaker 2: underpants and things like that. But eventually, when the other

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Speaker 2: the main investigating team interviewing team were interviewing Cown after

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Speaker 2: his solicita left, Kawn did realize it wasn't looking good

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Speaker 2: for him. He did provide a version and he wanted

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Speaker 2: to say that he didn't mean or he wasn't trying

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Speaker 2: to kill the child when he'd made that a mission.

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Speaker 2: And it was early days of recording interviews and what

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Speaker 2: have you. So I so I used a digital recorder

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Speaker 2: and recorded his interview, reiterated what he told the other investigators.

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Speaker 2: So we had the recording which was later played or

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Speaker 2: presented in the coroner's court for Daniel Walcombe. But it

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Speaker 2: was just that later on where I ended up working.

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Speaker 2: How it comes back to.

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Speaker 1: You, Yeah, well, how long was the offense with the

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Speaker 1: abduction of the young child before Daniel's abduction?

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Speaker 2: There was eight or nine years before Daniel missing the

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Speaker 2: Sunshrihine Coast. And when he went missing, I was working

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Speaker 2: the homicide squad in Brisbane then and then later in

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Speaker 2: twenty eleven when he was arrested, I got the position

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Speaker 2: as I was for in charge of the Sunshroine Coast

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Speaker 2: District cib SO. I was part of that when that

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Speaker 2: unfolded and he was arrested then, So it was uncanny how.

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Speaker 1: It comes around exactly. We'll talk more about the arrests

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Speaker 1: for the Daniel morcamb murder later on. But that offense

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Speaker 1: described the young child. That's a pretty chilling a fence,

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Speaker 1: Like you've been a cop long enough and you know

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Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's an evil offense. How long did he

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Speaker 1: get for that.

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Speaker 2: He didn't get that long at all. I think he

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Speaker 2: only got about four years. Cowen saw a need to

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Speaker 2: say something because he realized that it was evidence of

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Speaker 2: him deliberately choking that boy out. And the only reason

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Speaker 2: you would choke that boy out it was really the killing.

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Speaker 2: And then when you throw his body into a rusty

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Speaker 2: old carbody, that's not just.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean, not expecting him to survive that.

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Speaker 1: That's my take on it. You were saying with that investigation,

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Speaker 1: we're talking the other day and you said you were

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Speaker 1: doing a small community. You're going around getting DNA from

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Speaker 1: everyone in the community.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was a caravan park. As isolated is a

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Speaker 2: service station. There bp service station, the caravan barks surrounded it,

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Speaker 2: but it was isolated. There's no other housing around or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. So it was early days of using DNA,

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Speaker 2: but the Northern Territory was quite advance in those days,

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Speaker 2: and we were even advanced in electronic records of interview,

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Speaker 2: we were already using them. We saw a need, we thought, well,

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Speaker 2: the initial examined by the scientific officer said, there's what

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Speaker 2: they believe was sperm on those underpans. If we get DNA,

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Speaker 2: we would get some evidence against the actual offender. So

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Speaker 2: we started to get and most of the men in

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Speaker 2: the park happily volunteered their DNA for that process. There

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Speaker 2: was a couple of nutcases in there, but eventually we

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Speaker 2: got it. And when I think Cown saw us doing that,

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Speaker 2: he became concerned, knew.

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Speaker 1: His time was up. Did you get a sense of

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Speaker 1: how evil Cowen was at that time, and.

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Speaker 2: Definitely dealt with him. And then we understood when we

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Speaker 2: got his background about him having been involved in an

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Speaker 2: offence on a boy in Brisbane at a child care

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Speaker 2: place where he'd been working as a labor for trainers

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Speaker 2: or something like that, and that was that boy. It

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Speaker 2: actually had to give evidence, So that was a motive

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Speaker 2: for Chan to basically shut that child up in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory because in year there was a communication, he'd

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Speaker 2: be able to at least communicate and tell somebody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, scumbag, isn't it okay? Policingkreer the talkers through your

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Speaker 1: policing Creer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Originally I was working in central Queensland before the police.

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Speaker 2: I had some friends in Queensland Police at the time

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Speaker 2: I played football with and then I got offered a

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Speaker 2: job in the Northern Territory work on mine's He had

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Speaker 2: a couple of mates I'd grown up with playing football

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Speaker 2: up there the Territory. I owned a house in Brisbane

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Speaker 2: and you got a free accommodation as part of your

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Speaker 2: employment in the Northern Territory, so it was a money.

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Speaker 1: As well rent the place out.

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Speaker 2: There was rumblings about fitzgerald inquiry coming in Queensland. A

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Speaker 2: few of the mate says, and I don't join here

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Speaker 2: at the moment, So I took the option to join

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Speaker 2: the Northern Territory Police. So I went up there. It

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Speaker 2: was late eighty five. I think my course was supposed

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Speaker 2: to start before Christmas eighty five, but I think there

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Speaker 2: were cyclone issues or something that we end up starting

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Speaker 2: after Christmas, but I went up there anyway and I

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Speaker 2: started mates and then I got an accommodation. I finished

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Speaker 2: my training in June nineteen eighty six. I worked around

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Speaker 2: Darwin and then Tom went on. I saw an interest

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Speaker 2: in criminal investigation work in I think I started in

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Speaker 2: the I did some relieving in cob. I liked it,

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Speaker 2: and obviously I got along with them, the fairly old

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Speaker 2: school detectives, but very good, and I went starting the

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Speaker 2: branch in March. First week of March nineteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: Was what was working in Northern Territory like it because

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Speaker 1: it's such a sparse area too. It's different to policing

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Speaker 1: in the city.

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Speaker 2: It definitely was. And look, northerns area's a pretty rough

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Speaker 2: place back in the eighties, you know, and pretty hard man,

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Speaker 2: good footballers, so that everyone was into fishing and shooting.

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Speaker 1: And I described it as at wild West.

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Speaker 2: It was very close and if you're in the CIB

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Speaker 2: and Darwin, there was only sob and Darwin, Catherine Tennant

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Speaker 2: Creek and Alice Springs. So if anything happened out at

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Speaker 2: the goal for out those outlying settlements, we had to

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Speaker 2: go there all the time. So you had to see

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Speaker 2: a lot of the countries and pretty limited resources as well.

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Speaker 2: And when I started the branch and it was common

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Speaker 2: we actually had a stock sport as well. There was

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Speaker 2: a detective there in a stock sport. It was only

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Speaker 2: a two men show and you had lan cruisey ute

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Speaker 2: covered and used to do trips out to the various stations.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of style and cattle, big cattle star.

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Speaker 1: You're catching cattle rustlers.

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Speaker 2: Well that was the start of it, but there could

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Speaker 2: be you know, there might be property styling from cattle

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Speaker 2: stations and things that you'd go out to it and

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Speaker 2: it was a lot of I think, you know, showing

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Speaker 2: the flag so to speak with the police and building

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Speaker 2: a relationship with those rural property owners and I did that.

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Speaker 2: There was a Bear Bentham was the guy that I

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Speaker 2: started with there. He was a hard guy, very hard

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Speaker 2: guy from New South Wales. Originally he was mad, keen

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Speaker 2: on shooting anything that moved, and so I started off

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Speaker 2: with him and did some trips out to fitz Morris

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Speaker 2: and other places in eastern side of Northern Territory, particularly

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Speaker 2: in Bora Lula and so I travel exactly but I

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Speaker 2: enjoyed that I really enjoyed that. And it's funny I

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Speaker 2: used to see I got a good view of seeing

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Speaker 2: a lot of Aboriginal original artwork and out of the

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Speaker 2: way places where tourists would never see and things, and

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Speaker 2: I had developed appreciation of Aboriginal art, which it is

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Speaker 2: I still have today. But it was interesting. That was

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Speaker 2: my introduction to cob so to speak with Bear Bentham

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Speaker 2: and then yeah, just went in the normal areas of

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Speaker 2: like the serious more serious crime of cob as I

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Speaker 2: progressed and.

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Speaker 1: What steered you towards going down the detective path.

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Speaker 2: I think it was just interesting. Look, I didn't really

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Speaker 2: wasn't really friendly with a lot of detectives before that.

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Speaker 2: Certainly some of my friends I knew their fathers might

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Speaker 2: have been old detectives, or it was just an interest,

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Speaker 2: you know. I developed a skill of speaking to people

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Speaker 2: as well, and so I just fitted in well with

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Speaker 2: that group. And yeah, they're pretty rough and ready crewe,

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Speaker 2: but at the same time they are really good detectives.

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Speaker 2: Old detective sergeants I work with, and seeing they are

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Speaker 2: good detectives.

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Speaker 1: It's changed. But I joined the cops around the same time,

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Speaker 1: and I know the old school detective sergeant's been they

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Speaker 1: had done that, seeing that you could learn a lot

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Speaker 1: from them, couldn't you exactly?

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Speaker 2: And the way they spoke to people and building rapport

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Speaker 2: with crooks and being able to talk to them and

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Speaker 2: look at the end of the day was you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get a confession out of them, and they spoke

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Speaker 2: them well. It was a very good learning ground for

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Speaker 2: me to listen to them and watch what they did.

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Speaker 1: It's a skill. It's changed in criminal investigation because a

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Speaker 1: lot of the bruce were built on the statements you'd

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Speaker 1: get from witness and the confessions you get from the suspects,

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Speaker 1: because you didn't have the forensic science backing you up

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Speaker 1: inbearably exactly.

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Speaker 2: And like years later, as I went on and got

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Speaker 2: a bit more experience, has come more of a senior investigator.

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Speaker 2: I suppose. I used to see young detectives go up

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Speaker 2: and with their recorder and say, oh, do you want

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Speaker 2: to take part in an interview with it? And they

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Speaker 2: go no, And that was I said, that's not the

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Speaker 2: way you do it. Everyone talks. Everyone talks, and when

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Speaker 2: they know that there's some hurdle they've got ahead of me,

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Speaker 2: then they might want to address that. And give their

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Speaker 2: version and that used to really annoy me. So that

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Speaker 2: was a I think that's a habit, I think looking

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Speaker 2: at younger guys and I was at homicide in Queensland. Later,

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Speaker 2: I think it started to come back around. They realized

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Speaker 2: you've got to put some exactly, you've got to put

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Speaker 2: some effort into it, and put some effort and time

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Speaker 2: into this person. You might like him, you might like

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Speaker 2: what he's done, but he's got a story to tell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I saw that. There was a period of time

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Speaker 1: where detectives go, they're not going to talk, and it

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Speaker 1: was almost it was drummed into them like this person's

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Speaker 1: not going to talk. But as you identified, invariably, when

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Speaker 1: you sit down and have a chat with someone and

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Speaker 1: spend a bit of time get to know them, information

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Speaker 1: does come flowing.

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Speaker 2: And even if they had the solicitors come out and

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Speaker 2: tell them they're not saying anything blah blah blah, the

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Speaker 2: go out be on amand out of the jar lives

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Speaker 2: to make an effort to go and see them once

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Speaker 2: or twice. And sometimes I used to say, you're the

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Speaker 2: only person that even come here to talk to me.

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Speaker 2: And if if that's as much as you got and

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Speaker 2: build a bit of rapport that way. It's strange how

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Speaker 2: things later work in your favor or the victims favor,

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Speaker 2: because you bother put some effort into it.

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Speaker 1: The art of communication, it's such an important thing in

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Speaker 1: exactly just before we move past the Northern Terror Toory,

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Speaker 1: because you talked about it being a pretty wild and

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Speaker 1: ready place. I imagine working uniform in Darwin in the

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Speaker 1: early days in the eighties, that would have been some

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Speaker 1: wild times.

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Speaker 2: It was a Friday night and darl was a pretty

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Speaker 2: wild place. There was brawling between the different pubs, and

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of Aboriginal camps around there,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot of Aboriginal stabbings and murders and

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Speaker 2: what have you. Was you just wouldn't know what to expect.

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Speaker 2: But like sometimes on a Friday night in Cavanagh Street

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Speaker 2: on Mitchell Street where the pubs were, it was mayhem

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Speaker 2: out in the street and sometimes had to fight to

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Speaker 2: save yourself or especially if you had young female officers

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Speaker 2: with you yet to protect them because there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of grubs.

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Speaker 1: No, it would have been an interesting time time policing,

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Speaker 1: and it was in the wild West days. Your decision

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Speaker 1: to transfer across to Queensland Police. What brought that on?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I was born in Bread in Queensland. Always

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Speaker 2: thought about it. Then what happened. The Queensland Police were

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Speaker 2: pretty desperate to try and boost some numbers, so they started.

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Speaker 2: I think it was the initial one shortened course for

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Speaker 2: serving police. I took opportunity for that. At that time,

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Speaker 2: I'd gone to Tenant Creek because you kind of it

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Speaker 2: was a bit of like an old Victorian where you

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Speaker 2: had to go back to uniform to get and do supervisors.

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Speaker 2: You work to get promoted and then go back to

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Speaker 2: the branch, that type of thing. There was a couple

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Speaker 2: of guys got promoted in the branch, you know, years back,

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Speaker 2: but that was changing. I once again had a house

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Speaker 2: in Darwen. I ran it out. This thing with Queensland

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Speaker 2: was starting to happen, so I applied for that. I

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Speaker 2: was in Tenant Creek. I got acting sergeants roll there.

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Speaker 2: I think the whole time I went there. I went

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Speaker 2: there and I think about August ninety.

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Speaker 1: Four described because we were sitting inner city Sydney suburb

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Speaker 1: described Tenant Creek.

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Speaker 2: Tenant Creek was was definitely the whole west of the

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Speaker 2: same thing. There was some basic town camps either side

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Speaker 2: of the main strip, a couple of pubs either side

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Speaker 2: and town camps. They had different different clans too, and

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Speaker 2: they used to meet in the main street, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we used to call it Zulu Dawn was they and

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Speaker 2: the payday the mayemam fighting each other and the injuries

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Speaker 2: they do to each other and the police will be

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Speaker 2: stuck in the middle type of thing. But some of

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Speaker 2: the yeah, some of the injuries and what they did

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Speaker 2: there was and pretty horrifying working there and getting called

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Speaker 2: out or camp and in the middle of the dark

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden in a land cruiser and

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Speaker 2: a star picker comes straight through the window in front

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Speaker 2: of your head and things like that. You tell people

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't expect it.

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Speaker 1: How Like from your experience policing, did you have what

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Speaker 1: you consider good role models in those type of areas

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Speaker 1: of how the police situations like that, because it's a

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Speaker 1: unique situation and traditional policing doesn't always work in those

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Speaker 1: type of situations.

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Speaker 2: Look at but once you hit it on the head earlier,

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Speaker 2: it was communication and original people was a big Aboriginal

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Speaker 2: area and there was quite a few guys married Original girls.

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Speaker 2: My oldest daughter has Aboriginal heritage. And actually it was

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Speaker 2: very good original they could if you treated them well,

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Speaker 2: they spoke to you well. And it's the way it was.

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Speaker 2: And there was pretty old school type of policing and

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Speaker 2: we always acted morally, tried to do the right thing,

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Speaker 2: decent and protect people. And it was the basics were

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Speaker 2: there even in the middle of nowhere. But if you,

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Speaker 2: if you behave decently towards people, that was reciprocal.

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Speaker 1: When we might make this the theme of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you're about the importance of communication in policing, like your

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Speaker 1: vastly experienced police officer, and they know the success you've

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Speaker 1: had comes from your ability to communicate with people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it looks as I said, you're building and rapport.

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Speaker 2: But it's not just all your witnesses were not always

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Speaker 2: above average people ere they you know, had difficult times,

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Speaker 2: your witnesses over the here and you had to put

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Speaker 2: as much work into them to get them on side

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Speaker 2: as well. And in Northern Territory, a lot of those

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Speaker 2: places still spoke a lot of Abu or die like.

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Speaker 2: The English was not their first language, and that used

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Speaker 2: to be a wesdy. I had to get it interpreted

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Speaker 2: in the interview some of them young people. So that

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Speaker 2: was interesting.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've got a good broad experience in policing. Then,

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Speaker 1: relatively early in your career in Queensland Police, you went

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Speaker 1: to the National Crime Authority.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when I came across initially I finished my short

347
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Speaker 2: course training in ninety five. I actually went to McKay

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Speaker 2: initially first for a while, I got back in the

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Speaker 2: CIB there, recognized obviously the detectives designation, went back in

350
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Speaker 2: the CIB there. I work with some really good guys there.

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Speaker 2: Dennis Hansen was a scene so they're a very old

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Speaker 2: school guy, very good group to work with, a good

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Speaker 2: town to work in. And then they were looking for

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Speaker 2: I'd done some background training when I was in Darwen,

355
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Speaker 2: like COVID sur allance type of training, just as initially,

356
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Speaker 2: and then they are looking for coverts for National to

357
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Speaker 2: do some undercover work. And because I was from the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory, I was in McKay now and knew me essentially,

359
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Speaker 2: So that's how that started. So I went there in

360
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Speaker 2: started ninety ninety eight, I went there and I did

361
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Speaker 2: that undercover role for two years until two thousand.

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Speaker 1: So okay, tell everyone that's worked under cover has interesting stories.

363
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Speaker 1: Tell us.

364
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Speaker 2: Most of my most of my targets were Sydney targets. Yeah,

365
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Speaker 2: and obviously NJA looked at bigger type of targets had

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Speaker 2: you know, in a way better words, you bought your briefs.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was there was some targets in Queensland

368
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Speaker 2: by getting all their gear were mostly heron. I was

369
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Speaker 2: working on them and cocaine was starting to come in,

370
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Speaker 2: but a lot it was still heron was the main.

371
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Speaker 2: I did do some undercover work on some guys, you

372
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Speaker 2: know with hashish. That guy come from a guy from

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Speaker 2: Lindsmore who was coming on in boats. Had some variety

374
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Speaker 2: of characters, but one of them I did down here.

375
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Speaker 2: I used to come down here quite a bit doing

376
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Speaker 2: a role there. Ser had some interesting Carris. But I

377
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Speaker 2: was buying multiple ounces of.

378
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Speaker 1: You were playing playing the drug dealer.

379
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Speaker 2: Great, yeah, and that was interesting.

380
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Speaker 1: An any hairy moments, because hairy moments. Tell us about

381
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Speaker 1: one time I.

382
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Speaker 2: Was here in Sydney and the guy I was working

383
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Speaker 2: on I was buying multiple ounce as heroin and I

384
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Speaker 2: had to go into this like a block of units,

385
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Speaker 2: big block of units with a security gate and things

386
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Speaker 2: like some I'm imager and everyone can hear a bug

387
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Speaker 2: devices so they could hear the conversation. And everyone knew

388
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Speaker 2: he had guns or whatever, pistols, and he used to

389
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Speaker 2: go and do ounts or quarter around steals hero and

390
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Speaker 2: all the time we're at the table and he started

391
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Speaker 2: putting his hands in his mouth pulling stone and I

392
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Speaker 2: was just going, what are you doing, what are you doing?

393
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: What are you doing that for? And everyone got a

394
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Speaker 2: bit worried about what he was doing. And I think

395
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Speaker 2: they were waiting him to say, mate, you don't need

396
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Speaker 2: a gun. And I think the doors were being smashed down,

397
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: but they are really worried. But all it was was

398
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: he had these quarter abounds balloons in his mouth, so

399
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 2: he used to swat. If he got pulled up, he'd

400
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 2: swallow them all. But he was just pulling them out

401
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 2: of his mouth. That's secreted. And it just looked a bit,

402
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 2: that's all it was. But everyone else for them. And

403
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 2: I was getting these phone calls, yeah are you okay,

404
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 2: and startling and I'm trying to shut them up. So

405
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: that was, you know, that was one that was a bit.

406
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Speaker 2: And it was scary going into a place where no

407
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Speaker 2: one could see you what was going on, and you

408
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 2: didn't know him. And I had a lot of money

409
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Speaker 2: on me as well, so you know, there was obviously outcomes.

410
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Speaker 2: It could have been worse than that.

411
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Speaker 1: It would have been. It would have been an exciting time.

412
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Speaker 1: So I would imagine as scary as certain situations were,

413
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Speaker 1: the adrenaline and be kicking in and you'd be getting

414
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Speaker 1: getting a bit of a taste for that.

415
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. Like another guy used to get hair

416
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Speaker 2: and off and he used to come down and sitting

417
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,719
Speaker 2: but he'd transport it back up and he was in

418
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Speaker 2: a rural block off it up the back of the

419
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Speaker 2: Sunshine Coast and I wasn't living there there, but same thing.

420
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Speaker 2: The best we get was a friendly about a kilmet

421
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 2: away with binoculars and I'd sit in there and I

422
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 2: was buying also, he was buying hydropolics. He had containers

423
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: up up near Bunderberg there would goate and growing hydroponics

424
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: as well. I was buying heroin off him as well.

425
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 2: But he had like, yeah, this guy there that was

426
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 2: used to be a bodyguard for President Saharta and he

427
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: was just a massive bodybuilder there, and that used to

428
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 2: be intimidating there with having them circle around behind you

429
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: and you knew you had no one with you.

430
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Speaker 1: Were you getting around in your cool gear your Miami vice?

431
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 2: Look, No, I I was definitely. I was in footy

432
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: shorts and a blue single most of the time. That

433
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 2: was that was that that guy. When I came to Sydney,

434
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: it was a bit more casual, you know, and I'd go,

435
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: might meet him to have a drink somewhere or something.

436
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 2: I'll get around, I'll shout and I remember this boss

437
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 2: I had at the NCAA at the time in Brisbane.

438
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: When I was at the bar buying champagne, He's dragging

439
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 2: them out, telling you don't buy anything, you get them

440
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 2: to buy you And I said, I'm trying to make

441
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 2: an impression here. So yeah, it was some pretty funny times.

442
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: How long were you there with?

443
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: Two years? Two years? And then I went to State Crime.

444
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 2: I went to the arm robbery squad at State Crime?

445
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: What years was that?

446
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 2: Two thousand to two thousand and three? I was at

447
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: the arm robbery squad.

448
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 1: So still stick ups were still happening.

449
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we had a really good group there. They

450
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: kind of reformed the our robbery squad as opposed to

451
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: what it was years ago, and because we had a

452
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 2: lot of banks getting done to abs and that's what

453
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: we focused on, and we had a lot of We

454
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: had about eighty six percent clear uprate for that squad.

455
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: And yeah, that squad, they weren't conventional a lot of

456
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: the ways they did it. There was more senior guys

457
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: than me there. But I was a technive sergeant then.

458
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: But we got a lot of crooks from the jar

459
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: and ryle overs and what have you, and we cleared

460
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: up a lot of a lot of robbery and again

461
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: some really good crooks who were killing people as well.

462
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: That went a bit south for that group in a way,

463
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: and then it was subject of a Triple C investigation.

464
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: Well, I was in the stick ups in the in

465
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: the nineties down here in New South Wales and it

466
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: went went the same way. But people are not making

467
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: excuses for the ones that went off track. But it

468
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: was It was a tough, tough gig, wasn't when banks

469
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: were being robbed and innocent people were being shot and

470
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: you had the match fire with fire exactly.

471
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: And look, look if we're getting confession, we weren't doing

472
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 2: anything wrong. We're just trying to you know, I might

473
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: get them out of the jail and let them visit

474
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: their girlfriend, and you know they're entitled to gave someone

475
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: to come and talk to them, you know, whatever it

476
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: might have been. But there's some of the things are

477
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: criticizing that group of it wasn't really fair considering the

478
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: clear up we've got and the evidence got held up

479
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 2: in court and that that type of thing. But you know,

480
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: later on, you know, one guy got sacked and he

481
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: was like a fall guy. It was pretty bad. And

482
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: then the other guy that was with him with part

483
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: of that episode terrible outcomes say, which you know every

484
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: cop ha's got stories about those type of things happening.

485
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: And there was a fine, fine time and we had

486
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: it in New South Wales where yeah, the arm robberies

487
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: in the pecking order of crooks, they were the sad

488
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 1: at the top of the tree, they were the dangerous

489
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: ones and taking them on was hard police work. And

490
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: they'd picked people cops that were capable of matching these

491
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: guys and then when it blew up, everyone's gone, oh,

492
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: how did that happen? But they virtually created squads of

493
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: hard men to go after other hard men, and when

494
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: it ended in tears, everyone saw the steps away and goes,

495
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: how did that happen exactly?

496
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: And it looked as I said, it wasn't always conventional

497
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 2: or by the books, so to speak about the evidence.

498
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: You know, if you had evidence to use against them,

499
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: like their admissions, it was going to get tested, so

500
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: you had to be above board away that was obtained

501
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 2: if you use some advantages to them and getting them

502
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: out of the jail so they could see someone, so

503
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: be it. But we got them out there to get interviewed,

504
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 2: and it was to them as might be a bit

505
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 2: of a game. But they are looking the best deal

506
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: and the best outcome run and what we're looking for.

507
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: So the victims, the ladies are the subject of getting

508
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 2: shotgun shoved in their face. They've got they convicted that guy,

509
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: they did that, and that makes them feel a bit better.

510
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: It does. It might be the perfect outcome. A lot

511
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: of those people in the banks they never worked again

512
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 2: after some of those two And.

513
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: I've had sitting here a lot of ex robbers, not

514
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: the coparm robbers, the bad guys, the ones holding up

515
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: the banks, and I don't think a lot of them

516
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: really appreciate the trauma that it was carrying on. Like

517
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: some of the stick up guys that I've spoken to

518
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: that have done the robberies thought they were doing good

519
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 1: things because they weren't shooting anyone. But the trauma associated

520
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: with having loaded firearm pointed at you, as you would know,

521
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: and I know, is quite at least a lasting impact

522
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: on you.

523
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: Of course it does. And those guys, that's the last

524
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: thing they're thinking of. They're just thinking they're going, they're scare,

525
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: get the money and go, and no intention of pulling

526
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: a trigger or anything. It was just a fear fact

527
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 2: that they wanted to get that money and get out. Yeah,

528
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: you know, and a lot of the you know, the

529
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: staff will just comply and not they would be remain

530
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: pretty calm sometimes. So whilst the methodologies might have been unconventional,

531
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: the outcome was really for the victims. And we reduced

532
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: those banks and to ib Robbies virtually to nothing.

533
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a victory for law enforcement, wasn't it

534
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: the way? And it wasn't just what the cops were doing,

535
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: but the way the banks were making it harder to

536
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: rob with the security screens and everything else in place.

537
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: Exactly as things change, security got better, but they used

538
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: to try other things. I know. There was another couple

539
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 2: of robbers who one's dead now Bell and the other

540
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: one Row was convicted robbery. Where they what they do

541
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 2: They pretended I'll give you example. They pretended to be

542
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: Telstra workers outside this Westpac bank, right, and when one

543
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: of the tailers, one of the workers came into the foyer,

544
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,479
Speaker 2: they went in with their pistols and accosted that worker,

545
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: who then opened the door so they could get behind

546
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: the tails. So that's the way they got around that.

547
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: And that was one where we end up convicted, right

548
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: because he is a tailer and he got the pistol

549
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: and he managed to the tailer got a fright and

550
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: hit the gun which hit the crook in the chin

551
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: and he dripped blood on the tailer's shirt. We've got

552
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: his DNA. And then the other one, Bell, who got

553
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: shot dead. He went to do another job I think

554
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: it was a post office in Brisbane and the coppers

555
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: shot him dead during that and then they were mad

556
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: on disguise as they just have hair. When he did

557
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: a place over, he used to steal other people's identities

558
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: and then he'd make up mustaches and beards and all

559
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: types of things. But we got him convicted and that

560
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: was a good result on outcomers. That's just an example

561
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: of what those people went through. And the tellers had

562
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: to give evidence and everything.

563
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: So it was pretty You go to a bank, you're

564
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: not expecting. You're not going there expecting the confrontation like that.

565
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: The bank, of all places, we had one one offender

566
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: get caught. I think I think he might have died

567
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: from it. Got caught in a security screen, went to

568
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: jump the remember it, jump the counter, and the screen's

569
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: gone up and he choked, choked the death.

570
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: In there because I remember speaking to the other guy

571
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 2: that was in the bank doing that. I remember that.

572
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you've had a you should have retired to

573
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: a desk job after all this. You've had the action

574
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: in the Northern Territory, you've been doing the undercover work

575
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: and then the stick ups. But you found your way

576
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: to homicide.

577
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, as a detective, homicide, as you would know,

578
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: is the epitome of where you want to go if

579
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: you want to be a detective. To get to homicide

580
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: squads a pretty great achievement. And that's where you I mean,

581
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: that's the worst crime, isn't it? Murder? And so I

582
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,239
Speaker 2: went there in two thousand and three and stayed there

583
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: until I went to the centralin Coast base in twenty eleven.

584
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: And what was it about the homicide that attracted you

585
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: to homicide?

586
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: I think just working on murders that are interesting was

587
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: an interesting investigation. You've done that many investigator and I've

588
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: been involved a lot of murder investigations in the territory

589
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: and we weren't a big enough squat up there to

590
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: have a homicide squad yet to do everything, we had

591
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: no Child Offenders team, we had to do everything. I

592
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: was enjoyed working on homicides. It was interesting investigation, learn

593
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: a lot. So when I had that opportunity to go

594
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: to Queens and Homicide, jumped at it and had a

595
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: good time there. And as time went on we did

596
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: some good motigated obviously the fresh jobs like you used to,

597
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: but I also had an interest in some of the

598
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: coal stuff because sometimes, as you know, some times some

599
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: information will all of a sudden flow in about something

600
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: that happened ten years ago and you could run with

601
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: it perhaps, And eventually we did former Cold Coast team

602
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: which same as New South Wales. I don't think other

603
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: locations have which you could focus more on it, and

604
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: you can do a lot of success with it when

605
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: there's a bit of effort and a team to put

606
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: into it.

607
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: And you see the pain that the victims families carry

608
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: with these unsolved murders. And yeah, as you know, you

609
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: don't get closure regardless of whether someone's been charged, but

610
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: it adds to the pain when the loved one's been

611
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: murdered no one's been called into account.

612
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't I don't agree with I don't think

613
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: there's ever closure. And there's people say, oh I got finalized,

614
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: that they never get final line because they're going to

615
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: keep remembering about their loved one who's been tragically murdered

616
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: and whatever's happened to them. But it's the outcome result

617
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: they have having that means so much to them. That's

618
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: that's what it's a lot about.

619
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: I read an article that there was quite a few

620
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: articles when around your retirement and you're talking about homicide investigations.

621
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: Are just some of the things that you said. A

622
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of killings were unplanned, and killers made mistakes or careless,

623
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: which created opportunities for skilled investigators to bring them down.

624
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: A lot of them are not premeditated. I pulled those out,

625
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: because that's my reflection on homicide too. How sometimes it's

626
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: just you wouldn't believe. Sometimes you're looking for this complicated

627
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: motive for a homicide, but sometimes it's just a situation

628
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: that escalated. Is that what you're referring to exactly?

629
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: And I think like a lot of the murders we

630
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: see now, a lot of them are planned hits and

631
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: what have you, but a lot of them back then was,

632
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: especially in the territory. They're full of grog, and the

633
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: fight starts and all of a sudden there's knife going

634
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: around whatever, and there was guns everywhere in the Northern Territory.

635
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: There's a big so there's a lot. I just pull

636
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: out have it. I'm just pull out a gun and

637
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: just blow blow them away. So there's a lot of

638
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: and then they do their best to try and cover

639
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: it up. But even some basic murders, it might happen

640
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: that might have been planned, or even if they come planned,

641
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: they don't think about missus Brown down on the corner.

642
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: Who know and thinks about missus Brown says, I've never

643
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 2: seen that car before. It's a blue car because my

644
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: son used to have one. And they forget those things.

645
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of simple things that can

646
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: be done, especially you know, they might have gloves on

647
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 2: and all this type of stuff. They make mistakes, they

648
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 2: rip gloves.

649
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: It's you know, quite often when you gave a homicide scene,

650
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: you see the panic not just from your reading the scene.

651
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: You see the panic not just from the victim, but

652
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: also the offender and the type of mistakes they make

653
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: and their actions afterwards that. And there are killers out

654
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: there that can be cold and callous, and we'll talk

655
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: about it a few of them later on, but there's

656
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 1: others that, regardless of who or what they think they are,

657
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: if they take someone's life freaks them out, and then

658
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: they make some stupid mistakes after that. And that's what

659
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: we tend to capitalize in homicide investigations.

660
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: And one of the things, as you know, they don't

661
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: know what the victim's going to do. Some victims will

662
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: fight back, and you know, as you know, they'll fight

663
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 2: back because I know that they've got to. Now that's

664
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: fight to flight. And then you'll have and crooks talk.

665
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: They talk, They need to talk to someone. They always

666
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: need to talk to somebody. I have dealt with a

667
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: cook who did everything on his own and didn't tell anyone.

668
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: But there's a majority of them will talk to somebody

669
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: or they've done it with somebody, or someone's in the car.

670
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: So I didn't know they're going to kill him, but

671
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: they're driving them backwards and forwards and what have you.

672
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 2: Or I remember one on the Sunshine Coast where this

673
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 2: guy had killed this girl and he went to this

674
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 2: guy who was he was a squalified driver, but he said,

675
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: I want you to come and follow me. He didn't

676
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 2: know what it was about, but then learned this guy

677
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: had put this girl in the boot and torched this

678
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 2: car with the girl in the boot and had to

679
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 2: drive him back. Yeah, that guy is a bump in him.

680
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: At a surf club later on, he said, O could

681
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: I missed edwards, But we we end up keeping him

682
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: out of jail, that guy for because he was a

683
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: disqualified driver and he would have hit the bin for

684
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: that drive and disqualify. But he said, I'm in fear

685
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: of that guy. You know. I didn't know how to

686
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 2: body in him, but I thought it's a public was

687
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: it the public interest here to put him in the

688
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: bin for his just qualified driving? And you've got to

689
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: accept he would probably not have done that if this

690
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: guy hadn't to come with him in desperation. So you

691
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: talk about there's one aspect they're planning, they don't do,

692
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: and then they involve someone else and there is opportunity there.

693
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 1: Well, I always thought I'm in with a chance if

694
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: there was more than one person involved in the murder,

695
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: and as you said, you've come across one that doesn't talk.

696
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: They're the harder ones to solve. Talk about a specific

697
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: case that I think it was nineteen ninety nine, the

698
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 1: murder of sixteen year old student Jessica.

699
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: Goudi gout jesse Gouty.

700
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the circumstances here?

701
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: Derek Sam he was convicted of her murder. She was babysitting. Basically,

702
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: Derek was with a girl and had a couple of

703
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 2: little young children. Then jess You was babysitting them. The

704
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: woman had gone out. Sam knew she was there, sixteen

705
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: year old at the time. He'd gone there and coached

706
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: her into leaving. Leaving the kids took her. She was

707
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: never seen again, never been seen again, and he was

708
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: convicted of her murder. Her body's never been found. Now

709
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: as they looked at that, there was also this is

710
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 2: ninety nine, but in late ninety eight. In ninety eight,

711
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: there was also Selena Bridge as an English backpacker who

712
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 2: was walking past. When I spoke to you early off,

713
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: i'd got us well, I was get a statement off guy.

714
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: There was an Aboriginal youth type property that was used

715
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: least to take troublesome years there to try and get

716
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: him into cattle and horses and that type of thing.

717
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: Derek Sam was a very good horseman, cattle proper. He's

718
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: from up in North Queensland. He was there. This backpacker

719
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: had spoken to a lady on the road. She was

720
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 2: going to a bird watching camp. It was is Kenilworth

721
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: Bloomer Creek is a national park out in the middle

722
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: of nowhere, cattle properties and whatever, but thirty five thousand acres.

723
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: I think of national park and old mining shaves and

724
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: camping grounds. So there was a bird watching type of

725
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: convention going on this English backpack was going to. And

726
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: those young guys saw that English backpacker walking along the

727
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: road and all I remember is Derek going out in

728
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: his vehicle and gone. She's never seen. She never gets

729
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 2: to the park, never seen again. Then later in ninety

730
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: nine There's also a Anne Glassip Sabranda and Glassip was

731
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: living up on a corner house on Bloomer Creek Road.

732
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: She worked at the school local school, Kenilworth, same thing.

733
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: She just disappeared and Derek knew had gone there a

734
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: number of times with horses and all types of stuff

735
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: with her. There was a range of stay Ovius a

736
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: creek ground near their fall drive lights and wun Derek

737
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: was driving a land cruise, the station wagon that was

738
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: at the time. You know, there was some many coincidences

739
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: that all I Derek linked to it. We got Derek

740
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: Sam out of the jail, took him to this, to

741
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: this area. This is after Yeah, I got that when

742
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: I got my when I positioned up the coast, I

743
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: wanted to pursue that with him. We got him out

744
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 2: of jail, took him there. He was standing the raid

745
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: and the guy said he was standing there crying. So

746
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: and Jessica Gowdy's remains of him found. They initiated in Queensland.

747
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: Nobody no parole that was served on him by the

748
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,959
Speaker 2: homicide squad that ladder, but there was always a fear

749
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: factor that the other bodies were around the same spot

750
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: as where Jessica Gowdy's body was so they thought they

751
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 2: might be the stumbling block. I actually wrote to Derek

752
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: Sam to try and talk some sense into him. You'd

753
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: be quite aware of the Levison case in New South Wales.

754
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just put that in context. That was Matthew Levison,

755
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: that the investigation I was involved in. That we worked

756
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: out to a situation where the person that was responsible

757
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: for the disposing of his body gave evidence of an inquest,

758
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: perjured himself, and then through negotiations we recovered the body

759
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: Section sixty one certificate. That's what you were That's what

760
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: exactly you're talking about here, trying something along those lines.

761
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: And I just come from homicide and involved with a

762
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: lot of solving some cold cases. There as always difficulties

763
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: associated around and prison transfers, all types of things. Why

764
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 2: not try every option. I followed that case quite closely,

765
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 2: and I thought that why couldn't we go to Sam

766
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 2: and say about we're not going to perhaps charge you

767
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: anything because you're already doing life anyway, and that would

768
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: affect your parole and you need to recover Jessk's body.

769
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: If we gave you some type of immunity about whether we

770
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: charge you with the other two just so we can

771
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: recover them remains. Obviously, slend Ridge was England. I'd spoken

772
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 2: to her father, Lionel, quite often. My mum had passed away.

773
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 2: Over that period of time. I was spoken a Linel

774
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: a few times. Nina wasn't that keen on it. Like

775
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: he said, I'd rather not see him get out, and

776
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 2: I said, well, I think it would affect his parole anyway.

777
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: But I said he doesn't get guaranteed parole with that

778
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: life imprisonment. And I said it's an opportunity and we

779
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: could find Selena, but he was he'd come around to

780
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: that way of thinking. I said, it's an opportunity to

781
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: do something, you know, and why not give it a try.

782
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: People are strange. The Crown was a bit balking out

783
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: a little bit, and I did speak to one of

784
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: the bosses out of the Crown. I said, what about

785
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: this scenario they used in New South Wales And I

786
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: used to annoy me a bit that our laws around Australia,

787
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: or the precedents and what have you, weren't more consistent

788
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: and why the states differed. And I thought it was

789
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: an opportunity and there's probably there would have been an

790
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: opportunity for others. Well, I would say.

791
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: One, look, Darren, with the Matthew Levison matter, I'm very

792
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: satisfied what we did was the What we did was

793
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: the right thing.

794
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: Look exactly. And I remember seeing his parents interview later

795
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: on about it and wanted achieved for them, So that

796
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: that was really the motivation of was about what the

797
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 2: outcome You're going to get the best, We're going to

798
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: get this for this family. You know, Look, we got

799
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: to stage with Sam. I thought there was enough similar

800
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: fact evidence to charge him because of the similarities, and

801
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: we did. There was a DP head a DPP. He

802
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: is very supportive, quite honestly. Some of detectives are in

803
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: the office. One of the guys that Simon, cause he

804
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: wasn't that keen on that scenario as a similar I said,

805
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: what have we got to lose? And he said, well,

806
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: I hate him yet found not guilty and we don't

807
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: go again. And I said, we've got nobody or prole,

808
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: We've got this other option, and it's about keeping the

809
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 2: pressure up on this guy and our rape to him

810
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: as well, things like that. So you've got to try alternatives,

811
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: as you say, otherwise you're not going to get an

812
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: outcome for the family and they're getting old.

813
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, good on, you're pushing it, and we've got to

814
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: have people and talking about it like this. You get

815
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: that resistance because people have a clear picture of what

816
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: justice should be with justice needs whoever's responsible life in prison.

817
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: But when the bodies not they haven't recovered the body,

818
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: don't know what's happened. You've got to look outside the

819
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: outside the square.

820
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, like families are like a case. If you don't

821
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 2: mind me bringing up when I was a homicide, I

822
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: kept having this and as I've spoken before, kept having

823
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: this link to the Northern Territories, like the Northern Territories

824
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: follow me everywhere else Goingtory. One day, guy one of

825
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: the bosses comes and says to me and things says, I,

826
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: you know about this murder over in west End in

827
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: ninety six, a woman named June Quinton been found body.

828
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 2: There have been there for a few days and there's

829
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: old lot. There was an old pause factory over the

830
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: west and it wasn't very developed back then. Anyway, I said, yeah,

831
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm aware of that one. He said, there's a guy

832
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: from the territory of the Northern Territory corrections Intel, saying,

833
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: this guy's talk. He's been in the territory locked up,

834
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: he's got a big sentence. He's a Queensland Aboriginal guy.

835
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: He doesn't want to be there. Do you want to?

836
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: He said, I don't think there's anything in it. He's

837
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 2: just trying to use the system. So I got onto

838
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 2: this Intel guy, and then I got onto June. Found

839
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 2: June Quentin's daughter. He said, oh, I was you know.

840
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: I said, we're going to try and do some things,

841
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: but I might need to contact you. I'll try and

842
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 2: find the old statements, but I might need to get

843
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: another statement whatever. Because the mum was living a semi

844
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 2: homeless type of lifestyle. There was a Saint Vincent de

845
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: Paul near there at South Brisbane. They used to go

846
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: and stay there at night. And this, as it turned out,

847
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: Eric Murray, who convicted of that murder, and June had

848
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: in contact with each other in that thing where she'd

849
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: been a bit rude to Eric in front of somebody,

850
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 2: and Eric was a liner, didn't talk to Anybody'd been

851
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: convicted of another murder in Bathist, New South Wales, same thing,

852
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 2: attacking women. He had a pretty horrid upbringing a boy's

853
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: home when he was young. So he was on a

854
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: path to know unfortunately, and this is where he ended up.

855
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: But I got on an intel normal territory. He's actually

856
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: quite a good drawer, an artist. He draw it with

857
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: color pencils. A map of the river around West Ends.

858
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: Was the river ran around West End underdrew bridges. It

859
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 2: was all colored where this was happened. And then I said,

860
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 2: I actually made some questions. I said, ask him what

861
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: he actually did to her, because and only if Anna

862
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: knew or someone told him exactly she had two depressions

863
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: in her skull, which he obviously not that obvious. And

864
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 2: he said, he said, because I hit her over there.

865
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: I had this little bit of steel I found in

866
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: one of the old buildings there and I hit her

867
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 2: twice over the head with that. That's pretty specific and

868
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 2: exactly where a body was found near this old panel

869
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: beating shop was there. It was to scales. I actually

870
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 2: got a geographical like satellite map and he was drawing

871
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: an end of paste. Perfect. And this guy's in middle

872
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: Alice Springs in Jile. He didn't have access to a

873
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: lot of stuff, so that was pretty good. Anyway, he

874
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 2: ended up extra dining back from there. I did an

875
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 2: interview with him at Olk Springs police station. He came

876
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: into that confess to that. When he came back, he

877
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: got some influence from the legal fraternity, then wanted to

878
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 2: go to trial. The first trial was hung or something

879
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 2: happened there and it was aboarded, that's right. Another trial followed.

880
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: He has been saying someone told me about it and

881
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: all this, and it just wasn't jailing, and there was

882
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: about the barrison. I sound I found about eleven points

883
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: where only their fani had no those specifics, you know,

884
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 2: someone some o the grub telling him in jail this

885
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: and they can't not the specifically where the body is

886
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: and drawing maps and all this, and anyway, the barris

887
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: had fourteen points. Anyway, he got convicted, and I remember

888
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: June Quintin's daughter sat in that hearing every day of

889
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: that trial. Every day she was there and she was

890
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: that nervous, you know. And when we got convicted, and

891
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: it was funny a couple of the jurors up the

892
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: back when they come back with a guilty verdict, the

893
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: judge said to him, look, I know he can leave,

894
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: but I'd like you to hear his history because he'd

895
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 2: had this sexual attack and he sexually sold the girl

896
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: in Darwen, he sexually sold the girl, murdered woman and

897
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: murder in Bathurst, things like that. Anyway, remember these two

898
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: guys high fiving in the back. I think it was

899
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: just a they knew they'd got it right, if that

900
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: makes sense.

901
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: And that's juries are often mortified when they allow someone

902
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: to get off a crime and then they find out

903
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: about the history of the person.

904
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 2: And they say, why did we know about this in

905
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: the first place? And I know, that's.

906
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: Life, it's life. It's funny. But I always say, we

907
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: have the juries there where our peers to judge us,

908
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: but they're not smart enough to take into account all

909
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: the information, which I think there can be a need

910
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: for some improvements in the way evidence is presented at court.

911
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 1: Let's jump forward a bit. There's more cases I want

912
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: to speak to you about, but correct me if I'm wrong.

913
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: I think the first time I met you it might

914
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: have been at a bar. You were down in Sydney

915
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: with Howard Hickey, and my memory of the night is

916
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: that we had a few drinks. We ended up in Chinatown.

917
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: That's about the last I can remember of that night.

918
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 2: Isn't that. Weren't we just revisiting the scenes or something

919
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: for one of the investigations.

920
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: Know what caused us to drink. I don't know who

921
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: had a gun to our head, but I remember the

922
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: next day I was pretty pretty poor to say, but

923
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: we our work cross paths when I was working on

924
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 1: the Terry Falconer case, and this is this is my

925
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: memory of it. It's going back back a while. But

926
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: you guys had were looking at the murder of Michael Davies, who,

927
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: if I understand, was shot in his home on the

928
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: Gold Coast, brought to the back of the head. I

929
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: think it was the offender or offenders have run away,

930
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: jumped the fence, set a van on light and discarded

931
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: the gun and the gloves that they were wearing at

932
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: the time of the murder. You had DNA from that

933
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: crime scene. We were looking at. One of the murders

934
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: that were caught up in the Terry Falconer investigation or

935
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: attempted murders, was the shooting of Raniera Puka Tapu, who

936
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: was at JB's Bar and Grill in Chinatown when persons

937
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: come up standing outside the window and shot him, shot

938
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: him five times. He didn't die, but his life was

939
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: affected ever after. And the intended victim in that shooting

940
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: was Felix Lyell, the president of the Hells Angels, who

941
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: happened to have a ponytail at the time, and unfortunately

942
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: Puka Tapu also had a ponytail. The offender from that

943
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: crime ran right through Chinatown waving a gun saying get down.

944
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: Police ran all the way through Chinatown, came to a van,

945
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: through the gun and the gloves into a van, set

946
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: that van a light in the city, and we recovered

947
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: from that scene gloves with some DNA in the gloves.

948
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: We didn't know who the DNA belonged to. You didn't

949
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: know who the DNA belonged to, but during the matches

950
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: were done that it's the same DNA. So that's where

951
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: we became in involved. Is that.

952
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was how we first met and we had

953
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: that connection there of those crime scenes and what was next.

954
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: And then it was obviously your team that got some

955
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: really good information that gave a direction after that, and

956
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 2: obviously we kind of shadowed you guys, I suppose for

957
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 2: a fair bit. So I think our drinking was just

958
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: so I'll show you, I'll show you where this happened.

959
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: I'll show you where that is, right.

960
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: So we were actually working that. Okay, I thought we

961
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: just got on the piss, but clearly we had purpose

962
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: to it. But that was that was a fascinating, fascinating job,

963
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: and I remember the excitement. There was informants involved. That

964
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: was organized crime and this crew, these people were out

965
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: of control. We got DNA from a person we only

966
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 1: knew was Redmond at the time. That was the information

967
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: we've got. It had a nickname Redman, and he had

968
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: a bad reputation as a contract killer. We found out

969
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: that that was Sean way Good. We got his DNA,

970
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: the sneaky way of getting his DNA, managed to get that,

971
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: and I remember us conferring them and we were very

972
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: excited that we finally found the person responsible linked to

973
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 1: those two jobs. But people might say, okay, burnout car murder,

974
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: a tempt murder. You've got DNA on the gloves. Surely

975
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: that's enough to charge the person. We've burned around long

976
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: enough to know that's not enough to get a conviction,

977
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: that for murder and the temp murder. So then we're

978
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: doing a lot of surveillance. You guys were coming down,

979
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: We're keeping tabs on what way Good was up to.

980
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: And this I've got to thank you for this because

981
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: this was one of my most difficult moments in policing.

982
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: We got a tip off that Waygood was going to

983
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: do a hit and we had our tactical police down

984
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: in Sydney. He lived at Newcastle at the time, and

985
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: I was working with Glenn Brown and we're sitting waiting

986
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: for him to leave Newcastle, come down the city and

987
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: we're going to take him out if he was going

988
00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: to do a hit or murder someone. Fortunately, instead of

989
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: turning left, he turned right and started heading north. So

990
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 1: Glenn and I jumped in the jumped in the car

991
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: and we had surveillance police following him and we're on

992
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: this mad track on the Friday night heading up the

993
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: case and they kept calling into McDonald's restaurants, which was strange,

994
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: but that was to use their WiFi in the McDonald's

995
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 1: restaurants because they weren't using phones. He hooked up with

996
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: a bloat that we later found out had an association

997
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: with the Russian mafia, and the observations from the surveillance

998
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: team was he tucked something down the front. They got

999
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: things out of the boot tucked it down in the

1000
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,959
Speaker 1: front of his vants, which most likely was a gun.

1001
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: We couldn't arrest them because we didn't have enough and

1002
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: we've been tracking them for a long time, and then

1003
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: we're starting to get out of the New South Wales jurisdiction.

1004
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,919
Speaker 1: This is getting near midnight on a Friday night and

1005
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: I look up directory assistance to get a phone number

1006
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: for Queensland Police and you darn you appreciate this trying

1007
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: to explain I'm a cop from New South Wales. We're

1008
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 1: following a contract killer. We think he's going to cross

1009
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: the border, but we can't arrest him at this stage.

1010
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: We just want to see what he's going to do.

1011
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: And you can imagine the reaction I got when I

1012
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: phoned police and then I was blessed you got on

1013
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: the end of the phone. They called you out for

1014
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: that job.

1015
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as I said, we tracked him through there

1016
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: and managed to get some surveillance assistants who had jumped

1017
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: on it straight away, and we're very interested and it

1018
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 2: was really just a tracking to see what they are

1019
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,479
Speaker 2: going to do or who they took up with, which

1020
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 2: probably was more interesting at the end of the day.

1021
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 2: For that investigation.

1022
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was only you or Howard that

1023
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: I could have spoken to. In Queensland police would have

1024
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: because your bosses were saying stuff that arrest him. My

1025
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: bosses for the first time didn't give me directions. They said,

1026
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: it's your call if you want to let him run.

1027
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: And we think he's going to kill someone. And I

1028
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,720
Speaker 1: remember that we were awake for a couple of days

1029
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: and he was going all over the place, going the hotels,

1030
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: even went to went to the casino and I think

1031
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: you guys tipped the room over. They only stayed there

1032
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: for an hour, either room there, and there was some

1033
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: body mobile phone, the packets, pat packets there. And then

1034
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,479
Speaker 1: that at the end of forty eight hours or even

1035
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: longer of fun, he met up with Anthony Perish and

1036
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 1: that's the first time we got them connected.

1037
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: And really that connection to Perish was then the connection

1038
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 2: to Davies. Yeah, and that's how it started to unfold.

1039
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 2: So it showed you how holding off could develop that

1040
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 2: for the and we started to develop the reasons for

1041
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: both murders. Really.

1042
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you you got an induced statement. I'm not

1043
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: sure if we can we mentioned the name. Perhaps we

1044
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: won't mention the name, but you got an induced statement.

1045
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 1: Way Goods told us about it. Way Goods passed away,

1046
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 1: so we can talk talk freely there. He passed away

1047
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: in prison. But you got an induced statement from from

1048
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: a person that was with way Good when they murdered

1049
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: Michael Davies. And it was quite chilling how that played.

1050
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: It's a look a very forthcoming statement obviously implicating way Good,

1051
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: and the guy who provided the statement implicated himself he

1052
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 2: wasn't going anywhere, and I think a lot of that

1053
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: was to, I guess, to paint a better picture of

1054
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: himself that he wasn't the main hit man. He's to

1055
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 2: go along with it. Certainly he's complicit in it, no

1056
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: doubt about it. But I think it just confirmed what

1057
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 2: we thought about way Good and the other connections.

1058
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,959
Speaker 1: Well, it was, if I remember rightly, it was quite

1059
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: chilling because we're trying to get a sense of what

1060
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 1: we're dealing with way Good while we got him under

1061
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 1: the microscope. And in this statement, the statement you and

1062
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 1: Howard got from the co offender in the matter said

1063
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: that they'd gone through the back door. Michael dave he

1064
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: was eating his breakfast at the kitchen bench and Way

1065
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,879
Speaker 1: Goods walked up and put the bullet in the back

1066
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: of his head and turned to the other bloke and

1067
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: said confirmed kill. And then they ran off, burnt the

1068
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 1: car and then went and had breakfast.

1069
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: It was just like nothing for them. But if you looked,

1070
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 2: as we know from their history of what they were

1071
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: involved with, it was just work business for them. They

1072
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: had no feelings. What's the and as I say, Dave's

1073
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 2: just found slumped on his stool with his head and

1074
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: everything on top of the kitchen bench. Yeah, and shot

1075
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 2: in the back of the head and.

1076
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: That was it. It was brutal that they when we

1077
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: were looking at them. They also killed Paul Elliott, which

1078
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: was a Melbourne drug dealer that he flew up from

1079
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 1: Melbourne to meet with this Asian crime group and he

1080
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: said to his girlfriend when they booked into a motel,

1081
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: if I'm not back in twenty minutes, I'm dead. And

1082
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: he was dead, and they jumped him in the ocean

1083
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: in the toolbox, which seems to be they way of

1084
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: getting rid of the bodies exactly, take them out the harbor.

1085
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: But they were just chilling when you're going after people

1086
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: like that, because I remember we got statements from the

1087
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: person involved in that murder. And when they're about to

1088
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: throw the body in the water, someone said, do you

1089
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: want to say any words like a funeral? And I

1090
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 1: think one of them said they stuff it and spat

1091
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: on the box and kicked it.

1092
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,959
Speaker 2: In the I mean like day. That was the middle

1093
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: of the day, in the morning, just broad daylight, the

1094
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 2: pretty you know, they didn't really think about it, and

1095
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: they weren't scared about anybody else. If there's someone else interrupted,

1096
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 2: and they would have died as well, simple as that.

1097
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: Well, it was an interesting case and I enjoyed working

1098
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: with you and Howard on it. And again I thank

1099
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: you because I did not know how I was going

1100
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: to explain why we're letting the contract ula frunt across

1101
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,439
Speaker 1: borders that we thinks are and probably on his way

1102
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: to kill someone.

1103
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 2: And look, at that time, we knew that way good

1104
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 2: would have been right for Davies. And as you said,

1105
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 2: we didn't have enough and there was too many other

1106
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 2: players involved we hadn't identified, and certainly the hierarchy were

1107
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: accept that our impression that we shouldn't interrupt them, We

1108
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 2: shouldn't do anything because it would make it a lot worse.

1109
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 2: And I think of just some sense, hold off and

1110
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 2: have that patience and you will get a result as

1111
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 2: it turned out, a New South Wales and why Good died.

1112
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 2: But at least we knew who the players were were convicted,

1113
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: So anyway there's an outcome. Like Davies had family and

1114
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: wanted to know what had gone on. At least they knew,

1115
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: and when we talked about now, they talked about the series.

1116
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: Later on when the family realized what connection he had

1117
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: to that, yea, you know, they're surprising that more didn't

1118
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 2: happen or other family members were involved.

1119
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, I think we locked up for

1120
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: the people all up between us on that on that

1121
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: case and they were convicted of some murders and all

1122
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: sorts of things. So it was an interesting case. But

1123
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: it was challenging for a lot of reasons. But it's

1124
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: good when you get to work with someone from a

1125
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: different jurisdiction than you talk the same language.

1126
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 2: And I think I said to you, over a period

1127
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 2: of time you meet somebody of at least you know,

1128
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: you had confidence and you were comfortable I could contact

1129
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: you about anything even it was a different matter, or

1130
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: just get some advice. And certainly, as I said, earlier

1131
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 2: I'd spoken to brand and got him to do some

1132
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: and cries for another well the Derek's Ham matter, for instance,

1133
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 2: and things like that. So it's easy to pick up

1134
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: a phone and try and get something done. And when

1135
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 2: you've got those connections and you think the same and

1136
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: you enjoy each other's company, to be honest, you haven't beer,

1137
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 2: and you talk about the same business without any problems

1138
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 2: and be honest with each other, and you developed some

1139
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 2: pretty good relationships. I certainly haven't you too over that

1140
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: many years, you know, I still come down here around

1141
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 2: we can go to the races, meet up with a

1142
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 2: lot of you so well as Victorian guys and lifelong friends.

1143
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 1: Really it makes a difference, doesn't it. And you have

1144
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: that bond forever. We might we might take a break here,

1145
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: and there's yea, as our listeners would attest to, there's

1146
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: plenty more to talk about. We're gonna go full circle

1147
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: and talk about your involvement in the rest of Brett

1148
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: Cowen for Daniel Morcan, whole range of other things. And

1149
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to put you on the spot about something

1150
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: and I can see the smirk on your face. You

1151
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: probably know what that's about. That you deserve this.

1152
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 2: Okay,