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Speaker 1: Have you guys watched season three by the way, Yeah, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think Headley watched them been reversed and its season

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Speaker 2: three two and then one again or.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that must have been confusing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well I couldn't enough of it.

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Speaker 1: From The Australian. This is the weekend edition of The Front.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Harvey. It's hard to find a more high

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Speaker 1: stakes premise than the one explored in the series opener

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Speaker 1: of Apple TV's Tehran. A beautiful, brilliant Mossad spy Tamar

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Speaker 1: Rabinyon is sent into Iran to disable its air defenses

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Speaker 1: so Israel's air force can bomb a nuclear power plant.

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Speaker 1: But Tehran is no ordinary spy thriller. There's a humanist

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Speaker 1: thread that runs alongside the poisonings, bombings and assassination plots.

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Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to be joined today by a couple Headley

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Speaker 1: Thomas and Ruth Matthews, and listeners will be familiar with heavily,

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Speaker 1: the Australian's national Chief correspondent and creator of podcasts like

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Speaker 1: The Teacher's Pet and most recently Sick to Death. Ruth,

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Speaker 1: an outstanding journalist in her own right, now works as

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Speaker 1: an emergency department nurse. Like most couples, Hedly and Ruth

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Speaker 1: struggle to find shows they can both fall in love with.

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Speaker 1: But these two expert storytellers are both obsessed with Tehran,

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Speaker 1: and today they're here to tell us why. Helen and Ruth,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me, And I was

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Speaker 1: so thrilled when I found out that you two, just

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Speaker 1: like me, are super fans of Tehran.

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Speaker 4: Well, Ruth and I sometimes find it difficult to land

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Speaker 4: on a show.

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Speaker 3: Or a movie that we both like. So she loves.

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Speaker 2: Horror thrillers, not necessarily horror. I like thrillers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well I find them horror. I can't deal with it. Claire.

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Speaker 2: We watched Jurassic Park at the movies many years ago.

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Speaker 2: When the dinosaurs came out, Headly hid behind the seat

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Speaker 2: in front.

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Speaker 1: Well, you must have a strong stomach, little Ruth, because

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Speaker 1: your day job is a night job is going and

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Speaker 1: saving people's lives in the emergency department. So a bit

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Speaker 1: of blood and gore obviously doesn't put you off.

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Speaker 3: Don't mind that at all.

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Speaker 4: So I'll usually prefer a program or a series like

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Speaker 4: you know, The Caurentline Madison with Michelle Faifa, but a

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Speaker 4: spy thriller is somewhere in between, and this was one

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Speaker 4: of those exemptary examples.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, forty seven minutes seeing communication with game.

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Speaker 3: Do what you have to do.

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Speaker 1: It started back in twenty twenty and it just started

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Speaker 1: on Israeli TV, and then Apple TV picked it up

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Speaker 1: at a time when I think Apple TV was trying

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Speaker 1: to establish itself as a commissioner and a broadcaster of

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Speaker 1: high quality TV. This is as high quality as it gets.

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Speaker 5: Because it's clear. Take care of the package.

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Speaker 4: There's no going back now.

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Speaker 1: Tehran and Israeli production is filmed in Athens for two reasons.

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Speaker 1: The similarities between the Greek capital and Tehran are striking,

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Speaker 1: and Israeli is a band from visiting Iran. It's a

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Speaker 1: theme explored early on in season one.

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Speaker 5: Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. There's a

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Speaker 5: safety percussion.

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Speaker 6: We will be learning in half an hour at the

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Speaker 6: nearest airport of Tehran.

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Speaker 3: Sir, you need to take a seat, please please.

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Speaker 5: Sir, listen.

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Speaker 3: I'm Israeli, we are Israelis. We can't learn in Tehran.

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Speaker 3: We have now please attend our seat now, no, no, go,

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Speaker 3: tell your captain you've.

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Speaker 4: Got We were reintroduced to Tehran when Donald Trump was

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Speaker 4: saber rattling and talking about bombing it and then more

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Speaker 4: recently bombing it back to.

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Speaker 3: The Stone A.

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Speaker 4: So, you know, watching the series and the plots and

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Speaker 4: seeing how incredibly ingenious and brilliant Mossad agents could be

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Speaker 4: in their intelligence and the operations they were pulling off,

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Speaker 4: it felt like almost a proxy for the real coverage

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Speaker 4: that was unfolding in the lead up to the war.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really really was. And I started watching it

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Speaker 1: probably in about twenty twenty three, I think, and then

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Speaker 1: there was a long gap after season two, before season

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Speaker 1: three came out, and in that time the Twelve Day

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Speaker 1: War started. Before I started watching it again back in

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Speaker 1: June twenty twenty five, when Israel and the United States

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Speaker 1: attacked I run in the kind of first round of

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Speaker 1: hostilities that culinated in what's happening now. But it really

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Speaker 1: gave me a whole different perspective on more SAD in particular,

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Speaker 1: you know, the most storied intelligence service in the world

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Speaker 1: that don't come out in a flattering light, do.

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Speaker 3: They No, they don't.

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Speaker 2: And I think it shows that you can have what's

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Speaker 2: reputed to be the best intelligence service in the world

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Speaker 2: and things still go wrong all the time, and I

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Speaker 2: think it showed the flaws on both sides. There's no

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Speaker 2: black and white. Everything is shades of gray minute to minute.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, in terms of moss Ad, I think

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Speaker 4: it's difficult to imagine a spy service anywhere in the

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Speaker 4: world more effective, ruthlessly effective than moss Ad, And you know,

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Speaker 4: they were depicted in that light in this series.

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Speaker 3: They were also.

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Speaker 4: Depicted being ruthlessly efficient with their own assets. You know,

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Speaker 4: if they had to expend execute people who had been

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Speaker 4: helpful to moss Ad and to the mission, then that's

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Speaker 4: what they ordered being done. And that was difficult to watch.

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Speaker 4: How much of that is actually part of just the

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Speaker 4: script imagination and how much of it would be true,

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Speaker 4: we don't know, but it was fascinating to have that inside.

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Speaker 4: A number of times will watching it, I thought, have

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Speaker 4: they actually got great contacts at a high level in

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Speaker 4: Mossad who have been able to give them a bit

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Speaker 4: of a steer and ideas so that they've been able

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Speaker 4: to develop this Because some of it was so believable,

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Speaker 4: and while we can look at it and say, well,

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Speaker 4: oh that looks far fairt or that intelligence operation was

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Speaker 4: so advanced.

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Speaker 3: How could they pulled that off?

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Speaker 4: But we know from recent history when the Israeli intelligence

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Speaker 4: services developed those exploding pages which took out so many

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Speaker 4: of Israel's enemies just in the past eighteen months, that

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Speaker 4: they are capable of just about anything.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the combination of this unbelievably sophisticated system that they

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Speaker 1: have where they can basically surveil any place into and

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Speaker 1: we know that that's true because when they were assassinating

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Speaker 1: the Aetola at the beginning of this round of conflict,

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Speaker 1: they switched all the traffic signals in Tehran to make

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Speaker 1: sure that they could ensure that he was where they

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Speaker 1: needed him to be at the time. So we see

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Speaker 1: them hovering above really metaphorically and literally with drone vision

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Speaker 1: of everything that's going on, and then also some quite

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Speaker 1: kind of nuts and bolts, almost Cold war type espionage stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, a bit like the pages and the walkie talkies.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're literally blowing up devices or inserting explosives

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Speaker 1: in things or tamar that the heroine is jumping over

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Speaker 1: walls and sprinting around shipping containers. You know, it's an

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Speaker 1: amazingly I think sophisticated, nuanced portrayal of what modern day

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Speaker 1: intelligence is like. Like with all the sophisticated equipment in

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Speaker 1: the world, it's still requires some pretty old fashioned trade craft.

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Speaker 1: And she is so compelling, isn't she?

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Speaker 2: She absolutely is. And can I say how nice it

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Speaker 2: is to see a brown female protagonist who's the hero

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Speaker 2: in something. How rarely is that scene? And she's got

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Speaker 2: so much passion and warmth. She's young, she goes with

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Speaker 2: her guart her instinct. It's great to watch.

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Speaker 5: She's as bad as girl.

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Speaker 1: This is actress nv Sultan talking about her character Tamar,

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Speaker 1: and now.

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Speaker 3: She's duck into her running for her life.

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Speaker 1: But she never gives up. She never quits.

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Speaker 3: She keeps trying to fill her mission in many kinds

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Speaker 3: of ways.

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Speaker 4: But you also see the shifting loyalties on both sides.

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Speaker 4: So on the Iranian side, the very loving wife of

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Speaker 4: the Iranian spy controller and her determination to forge her

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Speaker 4: own life free from a wicked regime while her husband

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Speaker 4: is helping to prop it up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a real thread of feminine liberation. I think

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Speaker 1: through it. The wife of the spymaster for US Kamali

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Speaker 1: is Nahid, who is desperate to be free. She wants

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Speaker 1: to get out. Clearly she doesn't like the restrictions that

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Speaker 1: are imposed on her life. You see her coming home

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Speaker 1: and taking off her head dress and relaxing in her

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Speaker 1: home and being an equal to her husband. They have

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Speaker 1: this really fascinating marriage, don't they. Even though he's a

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Speaker 1: senior official in the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Court, he's the

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Speaker 1: epitome of what now we've come to regard as the enemy.

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Speaker 1: This is the organization that was blowing up businesses in

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Speaker 1: Sydney last year according to the Australian government. And yet

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Speaker 1: he is this very sophisticated patriot and she is a

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Speaker 1: also very patriotic person who seems to love Iran and

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Speaker 1: Persian culture but hates the regime. What an amazing setup.

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Speaker 1: At the center of the story and out.

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Speaker 4: Of the woodwork, you have Iranians who are trying to

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Speaker 4: help the israel side. So they are living in Tehran

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Speaker 4: and they are working for the Israelis secretly, covertly to

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Speaker 4: help them complete their mission. And just over recent weeks

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Speaker 4: and months we have seen news of the executions in

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Speaker 4: Tehran by the Iranian authorities of suspected sympathizers, people who

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Speaker 4: are spying.

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Speaker 3: On Iran on behalf of Israel.

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Speaker 4: And it's another way this feels so true to life

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Speaker 4: in the same way that the central premise of this

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Speaker 4: program is about a mission, a mission to obliterate Iran's

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Speaker 4: nuclear capability to destroy any chance that Iran has to

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Speaker 4: take Israel off the map with a nuclear weapon. And

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Speaker 4: how true to life that is now based on one

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Speaker 4: of the stated premises of the current war.

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Speaker 1: What did you think, Ruth, of the kind of storytelling

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Speaker 1: arc of it. We see to go into Iran disguised

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Speaker 1: as a flight attendant. At the very beginning, she's smoking hot,

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Speaker 1: insanely beautiful, you know, very brave, brilliant coder. But her

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Speaker 1: cover is blown straight away and suddenly she's on the

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Speaker 1: streets fighting for herself. And then Mossad turns on her

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Speaker 1: as well, and she kind of has to try and

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Speaker 1: make her own way through the Iranian community. She has

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Speaker 1: Iranian Jewish heritage, and so she goes to make contact

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Speaker 1: with the Iranian Jewish community.

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Speaker 3: I needrew help. She's always looking through people, questioning everyone here.

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Speaker 1: I watched it with my husband, who at various points

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Speaker 1: was kind of huffing and puffing and saying it was

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Speaker 1: all too unbelievable to be true. What did you think?

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Speaker 1: Did you find it credible?

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Speaker 2: I thought it was so compelling because as we go

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Speaker 2: into the story arc, you see much more of the humanity,

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Speaker 2: not only of Tamara, but of everyone around her. And

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Speaker 2: it's not just as Heavily was saying, the people within

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Speaker 2: Iran helping the Israelis. It's people within Mossad who are

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Speaker 2: actually agents for Iran. As with Tamar's initial handler, who

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Speaker 2: turns out to be a lover of one of the

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Speaker 2: top generals in the IIGC. The SAMs are shifting under

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Speaker 2: your feet all the way through all the three series,

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Speaker 2: and you just can't believe the allegiances because they might

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Speaker 2: be changing in the next episode.

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Speaker 1: It really leans into the dissident community in Iran, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Tamar infiltrates the hacker community of a young, idealistic university

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Speaker 1: students who are trying to bring down the regime, try

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Speaker 1: to work against it, but who are also very patriotic

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Speaker 1: in their own way. It's heartbreaking some of the choices

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Speaker 1: she has to make, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: There's so much humanity and passion in there, even for

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Speaker 2: us Headly sees him as the villain I see him

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Speaker 2: as someone who's brought up within that system, but has

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Speaker 2: principles and loves his wife, wants to do right for

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Speaker 2: his wife, is swayed when he sees the system that

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Speaker 2: he has been brought up to support and love at

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Speaker 2: odds with his principles.

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Speaker 1: The Tehran team were dealt a heavy blow earlier this

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Speaker 1: year when show producer and co creator Dana Eden was

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Speaker 1: found dead in her Athens hotel room. Eden was in

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Speaker 1: Greece overseeing the production of season four of the series.

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Speaker 1: She was fifty two years old. Eden's death was ruled

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Speaker 1: a suicide by local authorities, though rumors swirled online pointing

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Speaker 1: to a criminal or nationalist involvement. Eden's company, Donna and

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Speaker 1: Schuler Productions, issued a statement clarifying the rumors were unfounded

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Speaker 1: and pleading for the media and the public to act

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Speaker 1: with responsibility and sensitivity. Here's Dana Eden accepting the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one Emmy for Best Drama Series.

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Speaker 6: I wanted to say that Tehran is not only an

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Speaker 6: espeonade series. It's also about understanding the human behind your enemy,

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Speaker 6: and I hope that both of that we can walk together.

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Speaker 6: The Iranians and the Israelis in Jerusalem and in Tehran

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Speaker 6: as friends.

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Speaker 5: And monitoring Uranian refinement levels.

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Speaker 3: As you can see, we are within the permitted limit.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, don't tell me how to do my job.

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Speaker 1: British actor she Laurie, who stars in season three of Tehran,

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Speaker 1: mourned the death of Eden on X, saying it's a

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Speaker 1: terrible thing. She was brilliant and funny and an exceptional leader.

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Speaker 1: Love and condolences to all who knew her. Among the

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Speaker 1: sympathetic responses and anti the Israeli sentiment bubbled to the surface,

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Speaker 1: with some users labeling Laurie a Zionist. Lurie hit back

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Speaker 1: saying quote, nothing I have ever said or done could

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Speaker 1: lead a sane person to believe that I'm a Zionist. However,

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Speaker 1: if someone exalts in the death of a friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: yes I will block them. If you wouldn't do the

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Speaker 1: same in my position, you can fuck off too. Laurie

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Speaker 1: then appeared to preempt being labeled an anti Zionist, saying quote,

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Speaker 1: God Almighty, why does no one understand English anymore? I

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Speaker 1: have not spoken or written a word that would indicate

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Speaker 1: pro or anti Zionism. That's what those words mean. Blimey

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Speaker 1: end quote. It's not surprising that a conversation on social

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Speaker 1: media would turn so simplistic and stupid. And it's the

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Speaker 1: opposite of what Tehran attempts, and I think achieves a sophisticated,

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Speaker 1: empathetic consideration of the modern Middle East in all its

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Speaker 1: complexity and contradiction.

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Speaker 4: I found myself watching it and just hoping, praying that

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Speaker 4: one day I could go and live in Israel and Tehran,

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Speaker 4: or at least spend extended periods there. I was texting

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Speaker 4: an Iranian friend while watching it, and I said, mate,

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Speaker 4: you must have watched Tehran.

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Speaker 3: What did you think? And he said, oh, it's unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: It's so true.

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Speaker 4: And everyone in his community, the Iranian Australian community of

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Speaker 4: friends that he has, were all.

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Speaker 3: Over it too.

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Speaker 4: They loved it and couldn't, at least to me, he

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Speaker 4: couldn't really fault it.

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Speaker 1: Helen and Ruth, thank you very much, and I hope

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Speaker 1: you're as excited as me about the forthcoming season four.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely wait.

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Speaker 2: Although I think that it might be like House of Cards,

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Speaker 2: reality just gets so much crazier than fiction.

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump might have a cameo.

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Speaker 1: Thanks guys. Headley Thomas is the Australian National Chief Correspondent.

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Speaker 1: His most recent investigative podcast series, Sick to Death, is

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Speaker 1: live now and you can read his work anytime at

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Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au. This episode of the

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Speaker 1: Front was hosted by me Claire Harvey and co produced

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Speaker 1: with Jasper League. Thanks for joining us on the Front

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Speaker 1: this week. Our team also includes Kristin amiot Leat Sammaglue,

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Speaker 1: Tiffany Dimac and Joshua Burton.