WEBVTT - Paul Murray Live | 13 July 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.000 From the Sky News Center. 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.359 This is Paul Murray Live. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.680 Good Evening. James Borrow here filling in for Paul Murray 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.039 Live for the entire week. So let's get straight into it. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.600 We're going to do a big dive into Albos big 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.520 trip to China in just a minute. And I've got 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.440 two of your favorites on the show tonight, Gemma Tognini 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.680 and Christy McSweeney here to have a lot of fun 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:30.240 this Sunday night as we kicked the week off, plus 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.800 one of the most brilliant thinkers and writers on China, 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.320 Paul Monk, to look at what is really going on 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.479 and what sort of bill Albo may be putting us 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.600 on the hook to keep everything sweet with Jijin Ping. 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.440 But first I did say it's Sunday, and so you 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.360 know what we should start off with you a little 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.280 bit of fun to end the weekend, chase those Sunday 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.160 scaries away. And this happened just a few hours ago. 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.760 I want to share it with you. This was at 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:05.840 the Turning Point USA conference in Tampa, Florida. What you're 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.240 going to see is one of the greatest slapdowns of 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:14.800 a Heckler of all time on the stage. US borders 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.680 are Tom Homan and in the audience one protester who 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.839 bit off a bit more than he could chew. First, 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.520 let's have a look at the heckle. Let's release him 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:28.240 in the community. 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:34.199 Wait three or five years, Barney, Are. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.279 You an MS thirteen member? 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.399 Hey, hey, that's okay. 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:40.919 That's okay. 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.840 I got a question. 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.119 No, no, no, I got a question for you. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:47.560 Mightn't you come up here and. 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:51.560 Hand me that picture brace bringer bringer? 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.800 Okay, so you've got some yahoo yelling about MS thirteen 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.720 or something. And then Homan turns the tables after leading 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:07.960 the crowd in a USA USA chant. Homan then proceeds 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:09.880 to lay down the law. 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:21.680 All right, they got morens like this all of the country. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:27.280 This guy, this guy wasn't North like the surface nation. 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.880 This guy ain't got the balls to be a nice officer. 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.000 The other got the ball pretty a bog Georgia. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.360 But Homan wasn't done yet. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:43.240 This guy lives in his mother's basement. The only thing 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.040 that surprises me. You don't have purple hair and a 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:58.160 nose ring. Get out of here, your loser and there 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:01.800 and you're what's your bad ass? Being me off stage 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:03.600 in thirteen minutes and fifty. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:07.840 Second and then Homan delivered the coup de gras. 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.440 I guarantee you he sits down the peak. Guarantee. 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.520 Yeah, I'll tell you what. I am not taking that bet. 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.240 And by the way, keep an eye on that conference 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.040 overnight and tomorrow. I reckon there's gonna be some wild 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.240 stuff thrown around back and forth over that Epstein lips 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.079 List two, which maybe we'll check out tomorrow night. I 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.880 want to check in on that. But in the meantime, 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:38.920 I want you to have a look at this picture. Look, bah, 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.200 I'm a diplomat. There you have it. Prime Minister Anthony 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.800 Albanezi posted it to his social media a little while ago. 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.440 He's there in Shanghai with Chen Jining, the Communist Party 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:56.400 Secretary of Shanghai. So basically we're talking about the mayor, 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.760 if the mayor could have you thrown in a gulag 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.720 for thought crimes, which I guess I better say, hey, sorry, clovermore, 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.440 I didn't mean it. Check out that body language there, 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.640 albow all leaning in, Secretary Chen leaning back, imperious, looking 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.280 down the barrel of the camera, like who is this 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.680 guy and why does he want to shake my hand 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.520 so bad. Honestly, the Prime Minister would look less desperate 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.960 if he was trying to get Cardi B's autograph at 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.240 the met Gallo. The Prime Minister also posted this little 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.240 video of himself on the banks of Shanghai's Wangpu River today, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.400 trying to set the terms of this trip that he's 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.400 on right now to China. Have a look and see 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.080 if you can tell me what's what do they say 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:42.680 problematic here? 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:49.520 I'm here in Shanghai, China, supporting Australian businesses, supporting Australian 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.159 jobs and supporting our economy. We know that one in 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.680 four of Australia's jobs depends upon free and fair trade 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.520 and our biggest export is China. So here I've brought 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.200 a whole range of businesses with us from the resource 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:10.440 sector of tourism and education, all engaging with China in 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.600 a constructive way in order to boost our economic benefit. 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.040 Engaging with China is in our interests to build a 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.920 stable and secure region here over the next few days. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:28.160 What I'm doing is building on that relationship to the 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.760 benefit of Australian jobs and the Australian economy. 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.520 Yeah, yeah, So it's all about jobs, jobs, and growth. Funny, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.240 where have I heard that before? Anyway? Yeah, No matter 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.279 how much he pushes this line that this trip is 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.120 just about economics and doing business, well, there's also a 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:52.440 broader context to this here, because this trip that Ethny 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.880 Albanezi has taken to China six days, the longest trip 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.600 I think has even seeing in living memory of any 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.640 prime minister to China, with no stop in to any 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.960 of our North Asian allies like the Japanese or the 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.800 South Koreans. Well, it also suggests there's something much more 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:15.280 broad happening in terms of the way Anthony Albanizi is 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:20.039 pulling Australia away from the United States. You caught a 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.160 little bit there when he's hinted around free trade and 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.680 all of that, which I'm going to get to in 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.400 a moment. You see, the problem here is that Anthony 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:33.159 Albanizi believes he can walk this sort of fine line 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:37.640 where he has Australia do all sorts of trade with China, 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:43.359 indeed become increasingly dependent on China, while at the same 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:49.159 time enjoying the benefits of the American security umbrella, even 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.320 as everything he does says that he is pulling Australia 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.680 away from the United States, and that mean old Donald 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:01.960 Trump at his nasty tariffs. Albert Ezy will deny this 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.919 uphill and down Dale, but this is what is happening. 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.880 You can see it. Just look at the way Alberize 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.920 deals with both countries. Albert Ezy had this to say 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.480 today in Shanghai. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.240 Alliance with the United States is a very important one 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:31.280 for Australia. So we'll continue to engage constructively in a coherent, stable, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.960 orderly way. That's the why I conduct this government. 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:41.280 Ah, Yes, an important alliance conducted coherently, stably and orderly. 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.320 And also, I would say in a manner that has 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.880 been entirely flat footed. Now let's play a little game 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:52.960 of compare and contrast here. That was just Anthony Albertize 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:57.200 talking about America in that context. But here's Anthony Alberanize 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.800 three months ago, when Donald Trump slapped unilateral tariffs on 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.400 Australia and a whole bunch of other nations as well 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.560 as part of the whole Liberation Day economic program. 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.600 The administration's tariffs have no basis in logic, and they 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.520 go against the basis of our two nations partnership. This 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.160 is not the act of a friend. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.040 Not the act of a friend. Tough talk. He's laid 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.560 down that marker. That's how you deal with an ally 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.360 that doesn't treat you well. But now, of course, contrast 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:36.400 this with the way the Prime Minister reacted to another event. 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.000 See a fleet of spy ships that were pretty clearly 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:46.360 mapping our island nations weaknesses and choke points circling Australia 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.800 earlier this year. What is monster. 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.080 What it means is that the Australian Defense Force are 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.160 monitoring what is happening. It's going from New Zealand. We 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:05.000 expected to go around to China around that way. Of 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.600 course I would prefer that it wasn't there. But we 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.480 live in circumstances where Justice Australia has vessels in South China, say, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.880 and vessels in the Taiwan Strait and around a range 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:18.640 of areas. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:20.000 This vessel is here. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.600 Spot the difference there. We've gone from not the act 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:29.640 of a friend. About Donald Trump and his tariffs too, well, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.680 we would prefer it wasn't there. How about a Chinese 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.920 spy ship. Now, the Prime minster was also quick to 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.880 reassure everyone. You recall that this spyship was proparently fine 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.760 and normal and in keeping with international law. I still 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.440 believe international law. That's sweet. Note also the moral equivalents 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:55.160 he drew there between our freedom of movement exercises in 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.640 the South China Sea and China's blatant spying. Recall also 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:06.600 two that Albanese claimed Australia received civilian and military notifications 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.680 about Chinese live fire drills in the Tasman Sea, quote 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.480 at around the same time a Virgin pilot reported the 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:20.120 activity earlier this year. This despite it later coming out 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.520 that the Chief of the Australian Defense Force, well, he 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.440 told the Senate estimates that the military notification came an 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:31.040 hour after the commercial pilot. That version Australia pilot let 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.920 the authorities know what was going on. And again I 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.800 have to ask, was that the act of a friend, 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.920 The circumnavigation of the spy ship, the no notification about 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.760 live fire action in the Tasman Sea, these sorts of 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.480 things the act of a friend. Well, if not, I 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.400 would have expected Anthony Albansi to call that out, you know, 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.120 just to be consistent. But look, let's give him the 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.440 benefit of the doubt. Amy, this is just the Prime 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:06.280 Minister playing to his domestic audience of Trump haters in 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.160 the Labor Party. I mean, it works so well from 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:15.400 the election, didn't it. But this is serious business. The 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.360 message Anthony Albenzi is sending to the world is that 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:23.959 he will bend over backwards to defend China's actions, no 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.439 matter how irresponsible they are, how aggressive they are, how 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.240 bullying they are. But at the same time he is 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.360 happy to fire up and take us swinging at Donald 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:39.240 Trump and the Trump administration. Now back in May, Albeneze 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.920 ducked the chance to meet with US Vice President JD. 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.000 Vance at the funeral of the late Holy Father Pope 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.480 Francis in Rome. This is what he had to say 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.120 when asked why he didn't try and meet with the 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:59.360 second most powerful man in the Trump administration, the democratically elected. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:01.160 And I might add JD. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:09.360 Vance sir, well, I'm the Prime Minister. I met the 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:13.800 President of the United States and that will occur at 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:14.880 an appropriate time. 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.800 Ah. Yes, well he bes with the President. He won't 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.480 meet with any underlings yet. Check this out. Although ALBANIZI 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.679 will get the chance, oh goodie, to meet jijiin big again. 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:29.840 I think this is the fourth time that two were 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.800 going to get together. The actual formal talks between Albanesi 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.200 and the Chinese government will take place with China represented 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.880 by this man Lee Kang, China's premier, someone who is 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:47.440 very much the number two guy. So if it's not 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.560 okay to meet with America's two, I see, well okay, 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.319 But then when it comes to China, well the whole 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.520 thing changes. Yes, sir, happy to meet with whomever's available, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:02.240 mister g Now, and don't think, by the way that 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.360 this eager puppy dog Albu routine is playing with the Chinese, 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.040 and he's repeated stubbing of America, even if only for 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:15.200 domestic consumption here in Australia, has gone unnoticed in the 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.800 United States. Now you probably know, of course that August 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.880 is under review by the White House. Personally, I think 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.040 that is going to wind up being okay, because of 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.360 course every new administration is going to want to review 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.720 their defense priorities, so I don't think there should be 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.120 too much panic there just yet. But I'd also point 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.080 out that there was also this today news that the 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.800 Pentagon has confirmed it is asking Australia for undertakings on 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.360 how its August submarines would be used in the event 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:51.480 of US military conflicts, and for substantial increases in defense 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.720 spending as part of their review of that three hundred 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:59.200 and sixty eight billion dollar agreement. In other words, the 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.360 US wants to know if we are in or if 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.120 we are out. And you know, I don't blame them. 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.920 I don't know that they would be asking these sorts 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.120 of tough questions. Frankly, if it were not for the 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:18.559 recent behavior of the Albanesi government. Now today on Insiders, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.280 Acting Defense Minister Pat Conroy had this to say about 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.240 Australia joining in the fight if China, say, invades Taiwan. 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.720 The sole power to commit Australia to war or to 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.920 allow our territory to be used for a conflict is 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.320 the elected government of the day. 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:37.280 That is our position. 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.440 Sovereignty will always be prioritized and that will continue to 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:42.160 be our position. 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.600 Look he's right, Conroy is absolutely right there. Sovereignty is 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.920 number one here. But the decision on whether or not 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.360 to go to war, while it may be one that 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:58.200 ultimately Australia should have the choice, on the fact of 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.640 the matter is that you know, always get that choice. 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.080 History shows we don't always have that sort of luxury. 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.880 And he also said this about what an ideal world 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:11.840 would look like for Australia. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.400 We are being very clear that we want a balanced 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.160 for agent where no one is dominated and no one dominates. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.840 Specific where no one is dominating and no one is dominated. Well, 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.200 you see, this is where I think we start to 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:34.080 get into some trouble, some real murky waters here, because 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.560 the fact of the matter is, you know, balancing these 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.160 two the United States and China. Well, this moral equivalence 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.600 thing with when you've got on one side a live 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.120 fire exercise with zero notice or a circumnavigating spy convoy 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.440 and saying that that's no different for example, as we 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.120 saw before, to Australia or British or American navies maintaining 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.760 freedom of movement exercises in the South China Sea. Well, 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:05.680 and it comes back to this very reductive model that 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.160 sees our entire relationship with China now as being an 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:15.040 economic one. And I'm sorry that just doesn't work. I 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.120 know Albinezi is trying to avoid picking a side here, 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.600 but he is going to have to remember this. 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:28.680 I'm here in Shanghai, China supporting Australian businesses, supporting Australian 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.280 jobs and supporting our economy. We know that one in 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.840 four of Australia's jobs depends upon free and fair trade 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.680 and our biggest export partner is China. 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.280 Yep, it's all about the Benjamins. There isn't it, Albo, 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.440 no moral judgment about China and in fact, a sidelong 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.520 swipe at the US, you know, that whole free and 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.600 fair trade line. Maybe maybe he's just implying, and this 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.360 is what I'm really worried about. But when you look 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:02.400 at the direction that this is taking trajectory this government 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.119 is taking with all of this, well, it's starting to 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.280 call us around this idea that maybe, just maybe they 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.399 think that we could have a better deal with Beijing 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.719 in the long run. I mean, that does start to 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.120 seem to be the vibe. We can trade with them, 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.920 we can keep doing business with them, and nothing should 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:23.119 be allowed to upset the apple carte. Well, at the 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.639 same time, well, the United States and Donald Trump and 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.280 all of that, you know, let's just keep getting into 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.919 punch ups with them while ducking actually taking a meeting 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.600 with the President. I think this is a terrible strategy. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.800 Yet this is the problem. Labor has done such a 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:47.119 comprehensive job of running down any idea of what we 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.320 are and who we are as a nation, for what 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.720 we stand for beyond just this sort of narrative of 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.600 you know, basically, if you listen to what Labor says, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.880 we're just a GDP at a dormity worry for migrants 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.560 with a bit of average history thrown in. That's all 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.560 we are. Well, we don't then have the language anymore 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.080 to stand up and talk about things like freedom and 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:14.080 democracy and human rights and things that once upon a 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:17.520 time this nation cared about because we saw ourselves as 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.360 part of the West and as a nation that believed 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.320 in these Western democratic traditions. Well, we don't have that 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.760 language anymore. It seems to stand up and say, actually, China, look, 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.720 we'll do business with you, we'll trade with you, but 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.560 you know what, under your current government of the Chinese 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.960 Communist Party and the way that government behaves, we can't 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:45.240 trust that government. And that actually given the CCP's treatment 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:50.000 of Australia in the past, the wolf Warrior diplomacy, the 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:54.400 interference in domestic politics, the treatment of Tibet remember them 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.600 and the wagers, and the threats against Taiwan, well, given 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:02.440 all of that everything else, ships the aggression, the bullying, 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.640 and your demands that we muzzle our democracy, remember those 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.400 points of grievance. Well, I think the Prime Minster really 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.520 ought to say. If he's going to say that Donald 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.240 Trump's tariffs are not the action of a friend, well, 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.680 whatever we are with China, he should have the willingness 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.359 and the strength to say all of this other stuff 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.520 that's not on. And even if there is a bucket it, 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:37.680 it might not be worth the effort. Well, I'm thriatened 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.080 out to be joined by Paul Munk. He is a 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.560 great author and thinker on all sorts of matters, and 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.760 he's written a wonderful book about China. And Paul Monk 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.359 joins me today here, Paul, I need to ask you 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:55.119 here about what we think about this trip that Anthony 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.600 Albinezy is going on to China, and does he understand 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:03.480 does he get the aggressive and authoritarian nature of this regime. 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.840 It's hard to believe that he does, given his rhetoric 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.040 and his behavior. And if, as you pointed out a 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.720 few minutes ago, or he was simply trying to be 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.000 even handed, then he would be more restrained in his 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:23.159 comments about the United States government. So one would like 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.320 to be charitable and say, look, he's trying to get 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.440 the best deal for Australia in the face of the 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.879 bullying of the Chinese regime. But why not in that 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.640 case simply take the line that say John Howard took 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.840 twenty years ago, which is that we want to trade 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.199 with China, we want peace with China, but we have 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.840 very clear differences when it comes to politics, to democracy, 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.639 to human rights, and we're just going to have to 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:51.520 you know, look past those and trade on its merits. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.200 And we did very well in trade with China, so 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.520 there's every reason to want to keep that trade going. 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:01.080 But it requires something that China is openly interfering with, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.240 and that is a liberal and open world, which in 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.240 the United States created after nineteen forty five. Well that's 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:08.919 a really interesting to say that, wouldn't it. 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:10.560 Yeah, Well, it would be good to hear say that, 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.800 because it's really interesting to hear you talk about this, because, 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:15.800 of course, one of the things that we've been talking about, 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.600 you know, globally over the last few years, has been 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:23.000 the threats to democracy, the threats to that liberal order. 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:25.920 And I'm just looking at the optics of this trip 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.760 right now and what the United States must be taking 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.120 away from it. And I always think that they would 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.280 have a case to say that you're being fairly hypocritical 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.480 if you talk about, you know, threats to the world 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:37.760 order coming from Donald Trump. And I know, you know, 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.000 there's plenty of reason why people might criticize the Trump 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.879 foreign policy, But then to go and take this other line, 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:45.639 to say, well, you know, we're going to take a 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.720 morally neutral stance, and in fact, in some cases we've 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.399 seen recently almost defend China say well, these things that 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:54.439 they've done are within international laws, so we're not going 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.720 to complain about them. The optics of this strike me 0:21:57.760 --> 0:21:59.200 as pretty problematic. 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.800 I think they are problematic, and it worries me that 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.639 this is being done on a considered basis, not because 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:12.440 Albaneze he doesn't understand the realities, but because he thinks 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.240 he does, and he's been listening too much to people 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:19.280 like Ho White, whose recent quarterly essay simply says, we 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.320 have to adjust to a harsh future in which China 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:26.400 will be the dominant power in Asia and perhaps more widely. 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:32.560 And if your mindset is that and you're not prepared 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.439 for political and diplomatic reasons to spell out that this 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:38.000 makes us very uncomfortable. We'll have to find a way 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.040 to live with it. You just pretend that we can 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.600 live with it. And I think that's the most charitable 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.360 explanation one can give of Albanesi's behavior right now. 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:48.520 But I mean, I would think that he is being 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.199 in love your thoughts on this, Naiven, thinking that he 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:56.160 can continue this sort of two faced or two sided 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.000 sort of diplomacy were on the one hand, he believes 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.840 we can continue to rely on the American securityumbrella and 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:03.359 at the same time, you know, draw ever closer to 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:08.359 China economically. That is clearly going to be untenable in 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.440 the years to come if things continue on their present trajectory. 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.720 Yes, in some ways it's the monster Beyle already pretty 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:20.560 much untenable. And we've known in Australia for many years 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:24.000 now that we're facing a cleft stick because, as everybody 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.359 readily acknowledges, the United States is our major security partner 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:30.679 by a country mile, and China's our major trading partner 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:34.679 by a country mile, and they are rivalrous. And the 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.320 problem that we've got is not only that that is so, 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.800 but that the Chinese government, as you rightly pointed out, 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.400 is the kind of government that bullies and dominates and 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.520 lies and engages in propaganda, and it is clearly expanding 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:51.120 its military capabilities, none of which should be welcome to us. 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:58.280 So you know, if, for example, as Albanezi has claimed recently, 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.520 you know, John Curtin, with our model, then I would 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.800 like to think that the riderick would be we stand 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.760 full square behind an open trading order which has benefited us, 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.919 which is greatly benefited China, and we don't resile from that, 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:17.639 and we won't be bullied. You know, we're part of 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:21.679 a Western civilization that has created the open and prosperous 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:24.480 liberal trading order. We stand by that, let's be very clear. 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:28.159 Absolutely. But you know the reason why I wanted to 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.600 have you on thore this week or tonight, Paul, is 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:34.680 because you're a fantastic piece in the Australian And one 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:36.119 of the things that we always talked about, do we 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:37.960 know what's going on in Australian past, We know what's 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:41.000 going on in American politics, but the third leg of 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.040 the still Chinese politics, Well, it's so opaque, it's such 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.560 a black box. The cremlinology there is almost impossible. You've 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:50.040 written about some fascinating rumors that have been coming out, 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.320 you know, suggesting that oh, maybe Jijinping, with all of 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:56.359 his purges there are a sign of weakness and that 0:24:56.440 --> 0:24:58.360 he might be losing his grip on power. But then 0:24:58.440 --> 0:25:01.840 you say, well, maybe not so much in action. We 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:05.040 need to step back and look at what's happening here 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:08.080 with a really keen analytical eye, which of course is 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:11.040 tough because there's so little information that comes out. What 0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:14.360