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Speaker 1: Today is day two of the cameras, the overhead cameras

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Speaker 1: detecting mobile phone use while behind the wheel in operation.

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Speaker 1: Police have released photos of testing done over the last

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Speaker 1: two months or over two month period, and in that

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Speaker 1: two month period are staggering seventy one thousand and forty

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Speaker 1: four people have been under those sites alone where the

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Speaker 1: cameras are being detected, holding looking at their mobile phone.

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Speaker 1: And if you've got the paper anywhere around you today

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Speaker 1: page eleven. If you haven't got that far into it,

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Speaker 1: go to page eleven and have a look at the

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Speaker 1: four photos that have been printed there of motorists on

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Speaker 1: their phones. One guy is driving with two fingers on

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Speaker 1: the wheel, the other hand both hands, the other fingers

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Speaker 1: on that hand on the mobile phone scrolling through. The

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Speaker 1: other hand is holding the mobile phone. Somebody else has

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Speaker 1: got it down on their lap, one hand on the wheel.

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Speaker 1: The third person driving with their wrists with the hands

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Speaker 1: the fingers on the phone, but the risk seeing the

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Speaker 1: steering will The most staggering photo is a bloke driving

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Speaker 1: steering with a pinky finger. The other hand has got

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Speaker 1: the phone and it's facing his face, so he's obviously

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Speaker 1: looking at it while steering with his pinky, and in

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Speaker 1: that same hand with the pinky on the wheel, he's

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Speaker 1: holding a bottle of iced coffee or some sort of

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Speaker 1: drink anyway, and that is driving manner. Now, the fines

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Speaker 1: when they kick in are six hundred and thirty nine

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Speaker 1: dollars including victim of crime levy in that five forty

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Speaker 1: without and add that, it's six thirty nine in total.

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Speaker 1: I reckon we should add a one in front of it, frankly,

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Speaker 1: because if you're driving as these four people are and

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Speaker 1: the other seventy one thousand and forty who have been

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Speaker 1: picked up as well in two months just in testing

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Speaker 1: the cameras, if you're driving with the phone, looking at

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Speaker 1: the phone and they're all facing the screen, the screens

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Speaker 1: are looking up and you know they're holding it up

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Speaker 1: so that's where their eyes are. Rat you're not focusing

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Speaker 1: on the road, and six point thirty nine, got to say,

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Speaker 1: not enough of an incentive in my view to put

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Speaker 1: the phone down. Superintendent Darren Filke, we thought it would

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Speaker 1: be important to get the officer in charge of Traffic

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Speaker 1: Services on the line to yet again explain that the

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Speaker 1: dos and don'ts about using mobile phones seventy one thousand

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Speaker 1: odd people. Superintendent Filke, good morning. That is staggering. In

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Speaker 1: two months, that's about eight thousand odds a week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good morning, Matthew. Thanks having me on. Yet absolutely staggering,

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Speaker 2: and I think will and truly corroborates why we need this,

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Speaker 2: this bit of functionality and this type of enforcement, because

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Speaker 2: really the message isn't getting through and this is one

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Speaker 2: of the ways that we are going to going to

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Speaker 2: continue to try and change driver behavior because ultimately that's

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Speaker 2: what it's about.

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Speaker 1: Put them on every second Stoby Pole, I say, but

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Speaker 1: what now? Tell us the dos and don'ts. Obviously, and

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Speaker 1: you know I've spoken about this at length yesterday and

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Speaker 1: a month or so ago with System Commissioner Parrot and

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Speaker 1: other people along the way as well. But you cannot

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Speaker 1: have it in your hand, You cannot have it on

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Speaker 1: your thigh, in your lap, under the seat, sticking out

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Speaker 1: from under your leg, whatever it might be. You cannot

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Speaker 1: have it anywhere touching your person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And I mean, if people want to

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Speaker 2: go and have a look at what the legislation says,

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Speaker 2: it's an open source document. It's Australian Road Rules three

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Speaker 2: hundred and Australian Road Rule three hundred is quite clear

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Speaker 2: on the circumstances. You can and can't use your phone

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Speaker 2: inside your vehicle, but you've touched on it, and quite simply,

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Speaker 2: you can't use your phone while you're driving. You can't

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Speaker 2: hold your phone while you're driving. And you've got to

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Speaker 2: look at what the definitions of using and what holding

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Speaker 2: or held are and in relation to use, you have

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Speaker 2: to look at what held means and held means resting

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Speaker 2: on any part of your body and actually holding it

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Speaker 2: as you would think holding actually means. So there is

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Speaker 2: no more having a phone in your lap or tucked

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Speaker 2: under your shoulder or under your leg. If that's detected

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Speaker 2: by these cameras, then there's a good chance after the

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Speaker 2: human intervention adjudication aspect that you'll receive a fine in

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Speaker 2: the mail after the grace period finishes.

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Speaker 1: OK, A couple of questions to do with that the cradle,

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Speaker 1: and I don't understand this, frankly, the fact you can

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Speaker 1: use it if it's in a cradle at face height,

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Speaker 1: stuck on the windscreen or whatever, that you can then

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Speaker 1: answer a call or make a call just because it's

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Speaker 1: in a cradle. I don't see the difference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we can probably have a pretty lengthy

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Speaker 2: philosophical argument about whether that's right or wrong. At the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, the legislation does allow for a

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Speaker 2: mobile phone to be held in a commercially designed and

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Speaker 2: manufactured cradle in your vehicle. And if it is like that,

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Speaker 2: you can make and receive a voice call while you

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Speaker 2: are driving, and you can hang up from that voice call.

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Speaker 2: So you can touch it, and you can you can

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Speaker 2: dial in number with it, and that's I suppose it's

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Speaker 2: consistent with integrated phone systems in your vehicle now, where

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Speaker 2: you're quite lawfully able to use an integrated system within

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Speaker 2: the vehicle to dial in number, etc. So it has

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Speaker 2: some similarities to that. But you can't put the mobile

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Speaker 2: phone in a cradle and text. You can't put the

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Speaker 2: mobile phone in a cradle and look at TikTok or

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Speaker 2: watch movies or look at Facebook or do other social media.

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Speaker 2: It's only for receiving and making phone calls.

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Speaker 1: Can you use Siri? If the phone is on the

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Speaker 1: seat next to you or you down down on the

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Speaker 1: floor somewhere, can you say Hey, Siri, ring ring Joe?

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Speaker 1: Is that allowed?

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Speaker 2: Yes? You can the phone doesn't need to be in

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Speaker 2: a cradle to use Siri. The phone can be sitting

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Speaker 2: on the front seat next you and you can use

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Speaker 2: Siri or to make the phone call. But the second

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Speaker 2: you interact with that phone, and that is pick it

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Speaker 2: up or hang it up, or touch it, then you'll

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Speaker 2: deem to be using that phone. So if it's sitting

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Speaker 2: on the front passenger seat and you're using voice commands,

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Speaker 2: not a problem. So the second you touch that phone, yeah,

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Speaker 2: on the passenger seat, you'll be breaking the law.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So if you're going through a camera and it

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Speaker 1: takes the shot and the phone is lit up on

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Speaker 1: the passenger seat indicating it's in use, whether it's you know,

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Speaker 1: showing a Facebook page or a phone call on it,

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Speaker 1: is that going to get you in trouble. You're not

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Speaker 1: touching it. It's just there but lit up, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you might be able to see images or whatever on it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, about the law as it currently stands will allow

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Speaker 2: for that to happen. Okay, But this gets back to

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Speaker 2: the common sense approach to all of this. So if

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Speaker 2: people have a phone sitting on their passenger seat that's

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Speaker 2: having a movie or showing something on Facebook, then clearly

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Speaker 2: they're going to be distracted, so whether the law allows

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Speaker 2: it or not, people need to stop and think about

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Speaker 2: whether the actions of that are really appropriate while they're

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Speaker 2: actually in control of the vehicle. So I know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people want to argue about what they can

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Speaker 2: and can't do with a phone in a car, and

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Speaker 2: what's integrated and what's not. There's been a lot of

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Speaker 2: social media commentary over the last twenty four hours about

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Speaker 2: and I've read some of it myself. It gets back

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Speaker 2: to a common sense approach to this, and that is

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Speaker 2: people need to concentrate on the task of driving so

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Speaker 2: they can protect themselves from being involved in a collision,

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Speaker 2: but more importantly, to protect other people from being involved

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Speaker 2: in a collision as well. We know that distraction, particularly

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Speaker 2: with a mobile phone, makes it up to four times

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Speaker 2: heightens the risk of being involved in a crash or

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Speaker 2: a collision. Like I said, the legislation allows the use

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Speaker 2: of a phone in certain circumstances, and clearly it defines

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Speaker 2: when you can't. But my message to all drivers of

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Speaker 2: vehicles is to leave your phone alone while you are driving,

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Speaker 2: and let's not have these what if conversations. Let's apply

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Speaker 2: some common sense so we can reduce the number of

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Speaker 2: lives lost in serious injuries that are happening on our roads.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly it, But I think the what IF's

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Speaker 1: while everyone's in this phase of getting used to the

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Speaker 1: idea they're going to be photographed, I'm getting a lot

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Speaker 1: of what if questions, for instance on the text line,

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Speaker 1: and one of the big ones is with modern cars

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Speaker 1: and the big screens, what if they're photographed touching that screen?

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Speaker 1: Is that distracted driving?

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Speaker 2: That is not an offense, And in fact, this rail

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Speaker 2: road rules also cover visual display units that are integrated

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Speaker 2: into vehicles, and most modern vehicles, now we'd all appreciate

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Speaker 2: contain all of those things that you can make phone

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Speaker 2: calls from your steering wheel, but also you can make

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Speaker 2: phone calls from integrated units within the vehicle, and there's

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Speaker 2: navigation systems within the vehicle, etc. So that's not an

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Speaker 2: offense to interact with a system that's integrated within the vehicle,

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Speaker 2: and you won't be issue to fine if you are

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Speaker 2: doing that. This is solely around mobile phones and the

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Speaker 2: handset to themselves, but again, if you're interacting even with

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Speaker 2: an integrated system, there is an element of distraction about that,

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Speaker 2: so if you are doing that, there needs to be

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Speaker 2: a really high level of concentration applied. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: we would suggest that if you need to enter in

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Speaker 2: an address or a location that you would like to navigate,

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Speaker 2: to do that before you start your journey and press

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Speaker 2: the end to button and have it search up your

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Speaker 2: location and then drive to that location, so you're not

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Speaker 2: having to do that while you're engaged in driving the vehicle.

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Speaker 1: Where do uber drivers, cabbs, delivery drivers sit with that?

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Speaker 1: Are they allowed to use their phones as part of

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Speaker 1: the job in working out, you know, clearing a job,

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Speaker 1: accepting a job, et cetera. And not just phones. I

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Speaker 1: mean cabbies have got other devices in there that alert

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Speaker 1: them to where they're going.

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Speaker 2: Look, the legislation talks about drivers aids, and clearly navigation

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Speaker 2: systems are one of those things, but it also talks

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Speaker 2: about dispatch systems and CCTV cameras that might be in

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Speaker 2: a cabby's vehicle, et cetera, as drivers aids. So the

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Speaker 2: legislation does provide some protection if you like, around drivers

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Speaker 2: using those particular type of devices in their vehicles. So

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Speaker 2: a cabby in terms of using the mobile phone is

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Speaker 2: no different to any other or it needs to be

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Speaker 2: in an approved cradle. It can only be used for

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Speaker 2: making receiving an audio call while in that cradle. And

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Speaker 2: if they need to accept a job and it's not

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Speaker 2: on a particular dispatch system piece of equipment, then they'll

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Speaker 2: need to pull over, park their vehicle and interact with

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Speaker 2: their phone in that manner.

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Speaker 1: Okay, traffic lights, how to caller a couple of days ago,

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Speaker 1: saying Rule three hundred allows for a vehicle to be

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Speaker 1: stationary and therefore using the phone as Okay, traffic lights

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Speaker 1: are not included in that presumably a red light.

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Speaker 2: No, and that would fall under you're stationary at a

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Speaker 2: traffic light. You're not parked at a traffic light. So

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Speaker 2: this doesn't apply if you are parked. If the vehicle

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Speaker 2: is parked, and again we can have a lengthy conversation

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Speaker 2: at what parked means and what park doesn't mean. Again,

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Speaker 2: if you apply common sense, and that's what a lot

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Speaker 2: of this is about, is most people know what parked means.

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Speaker 2: And again the legislation provides some clarification around that. And

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Speaker 2: you can have a key in the vehicle's ignition and

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Speaker 2: still be parked. And the engine can still be running

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Speaker 2: and you can still be parked. So we all know

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Speaker 2: what park means. Park means up against you, against the

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Speaker 2: side of the road, or pulled over to a stop, park,

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Speaker 2: break on vehicle in park, whether the engine is running

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Speaker 2: or not, you're parked.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's clear set up for a few people. I

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Speaker 1: had that call the other day with the new cameras.

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Speaker 1: How do you know it's actually a phone the driver

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Speaker 1: is touching, because we know we have heard already that

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Speaker 1: sometime into State too, where they've had issues and it's

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Speaker 1: not been a phone, but something that might resemble a phone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, clearly there's computer AI that drives that the cameras,

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Speaker 2: and the AI is much that it will detect phones.

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Speaker 2: But that is why we also have a human intervention

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Speaker 2: adjudication process that's that's built into this. Those adjudicators and

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Speaker 2: non sworn SAPHOLE members who will be trained to look

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Speaker 2: at these at the photographs that are sent through by

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Speaker 2: the system determine whether it's a it's a phone or not.

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Speaker 2: We're confident that we're going to get that right and

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Speaker 2: we're not going to be sending out fines for people

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Speaker 2: who are holding their wallet or a water bottle up

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Speaker 2: to up to their ear or up to their mouth.

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Speaker 2: I think from some of the photos that you've described

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Speaker 2: that are in the advertiser today, it's going to be

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Speaker 2: quite clear what is the phone and what is not

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Speaker 2: the phone.

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Speaker 1: And you can tell from those photos very clearly. And

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Speaker 1: as I said that the guy driving with the pinky

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Speaker 1: and that hand holding a drink in the other hand

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Speaker 1: holding the phone away from the wheel, just madness, just

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Speaker 1: absolute madness. Can't believe that photo, And that's what it's like.

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Speaker 1: So at some point do you imagine police would be

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Speaker 1: looking And maybe I don't know if it's the legislation

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Speaker 1: that would need to change, but distracted driving using those cameras,

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Speaker 1: not just mobile phone news, but people who are obviously

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Speaker 1: busy doing whatever behind the wheel as they're driving along,

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Speaker 1: and the photo clearly picks that up that they're I

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Speaker 1: don't know, perhaps looking at a mobile phone that a

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Speaker 1: passenger is showing them. Is that an offense? And potentially

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Speaker 1: other things, as you say, drinking, eating, shaving, putting on

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Speaker 1: muscaa as people tend to do as sometimes as they're

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Speaker 1: driving along. Should those things be pinged?

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Speaker 2: Look, there's no discussion at the moment that a mobile

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Speaker 2: phone detection camera will be used for any other reason

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Speaker 2: than to deteck mobile phone related offending. There is other offending,

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Speaker 2: and that is driving without due care and attention your vehicle,

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Speaker 2: and clearly that will involve some human intervention by a

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Speaker 2: police officer just to see that happening before we could

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Speaker 2: take any positive action about that. But there are other offenses,

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Speaker 2: and we will act on information if people have the

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Speaker 2: right evidence of people who are distracted while they're driving,

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Speaker 2: whether that's you know, they're doing their makeup or having

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Speaker 2: a shave or whatever that might be, that they're still

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Speaker 2: on a fence for that without these cameras picking picking

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Speaker 2: that up. And again, you know, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: harp on about it, but the distraction piece, when it's

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Speaker 2: in that context, really really is around common senship. You

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Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing any of that while you're driving. That's

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Speaker 2: that's clear to everybody. So it frustrates a lot of

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Speaker 2: road users. We know that we hear anecdotally regularly that

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Speaker 2: this behavior goes on. The mobile phone detection cameras are

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Speaker 2: but one part of the distraction piece. It's a big

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Speaker 2: part of it, which is why we've implemented this type

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Speaker 2: of enforcement capability. But again, outside of the mobile phones,

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Speaker 2: any distraction while you are driving can cause problems, all right.

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Speaker 1: So Berintendent, really appreciate your advice and assistance with all

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Speaker 1: of that today. I know a lot of people have questions,

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Speaker 1: and as I say, with the newer technology, there certainly

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Speaker 1: a lot of questions to be answered regarding this, and

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Speaker 1: I think you've covered most of them today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Yes, and God just say Matthew. The Department

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Speaker 2: of Infrastruction and Transport have put together a number of

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Speaker 2: frequently asked questions and also some information, particularly around the

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Speaker 2: mobile phone detection cameras. So you know, i'd encourage people

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Speaker 2: to log onto the Think Road Safety website navigate their

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Speaker 2: way through that, and now I'll get a really clear

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Speaker 2: understanding of what's in and what's out, and we'll be

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Speaker 2: able to provide a lot of information so that people

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Speaker 2: can be really educated around what we're trying to do.

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Speaker 2: So please you. My message to everybody is, don't touch

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Speaker 2: your phone while you're driving, and really let's all have

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Speaker 2: a look at changing our driving behavior when it comes

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Speaker 2: to distraction.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Thank you for your time. Chis Superintendent

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Speaker 1: Darren Fielke, Officer in charge traffic Services at SAPOL