WEBVTT - Former DPP doubles down on Bronwyn Winfield

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<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Tuesday, May twenty eighth. The new Australian made nuclear

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<v Speaker 1>subs will be substantially bigger than the US Navy's Virginia

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<v Speaker 1>class submarines. That's a revelation in the Australian today. As

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<v Speaker 1>we prepare for a big day of defense news, We're

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<v Speaker 1>hosting a Defending Australia summit with top defense brass former spies,

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<v Speaker 1>ex political prisoners and ambassadors. It'll all be live on

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<v Speaker 1>Sky News Australia today. The Coalition is promising to cancel

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<v Speaker 1>the visas of anti Semitic student protesters if it wins

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<v Speaker 1>the election. Foreign students who engage in campus protests should

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<v Speaker 1>be booted out, says Opposition Home Affairs spokesman James Patterson.

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<v Speaker 1>That's an exclusive on the Australian dot com dot a

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<v Speaker 1>you right now. Former New South Wales's Director of Public

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery told the family of a missing mum

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<v Speaker 1>Bromwyn Winfield that there was no evidence her husband killed her,

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<v Speaker 1>despite a senior coroner finding there was a reasonable prospect

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<v Speaker 1>a jury would convict him. John Winfield was never changed

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<v Speaker 1>and denies any wrongdoing. That's today's episode.

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<v Speaker 2>My advice to police in the coroner, after very careful

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<v Speaker 2>consideration of all the evidence presently available, is that there

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<v Speaker 2>is not sufficient evidence to charge Jonathan Winfield or any

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<v Speaker 2>other person.

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<v Speaker 1>Those are the words written by former New South Wales

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<v Speaker 1>Director of Public Prosecutions Nicholas Cowdery in a letter to

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<v Speaker 1>a Sydney man named Andy Reid in two thousand and three.

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<v Speaker 1>They're being read by a voice actor. That's the moment

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<v Speaker 1>Andy and his wife Michelle lost hope that they'd get

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<v Speaker 1>answers in the disappearance of Andy's sister, Bronwyn. Bronwyn Winfield

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<v Speaker 1>was thirty one, the mother of two little girls aged

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<v Speaker 1>ten and five, and stepmom to an eighteen year old,

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<v Speaker 1>the daughter of her husband, John Winfield. They lived together

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<v Speaker 1>in a beach town, Lennox Head, on the wild New

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<v Speaker 1>South Wales north coast. John was a surfey and a bricklayer.

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<v Speaker 1>Bronwyn worked part time at the local takeaway food shop,

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<v Speaker 1>but in nineteen ninety three, after tucking her children into

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<v Speaker 1>bed one Sunday night, Bronwen disappeared. The last person to

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<v Speaker 1>report seeing her was John Winfield, and the mystery of

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<v Speaker 1>what happened to this devoted young mum is the subject

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<v Speaker 1>of our newest podcast here at The Australian. It's called

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<v Speaker 1>Bronwyn and it's reported and investigated by our national Chief

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<v Speaker 1>correspondent Headley Thomas, who also created The Teacher's Pet.

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<v Speaker 3>Where do you want to go?

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<v Speaker 2>Today?

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<v Speaker 4>Thirty one years since the sudden disappearance of a mother

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<v Speaker 4>of two little girls. I'm driving on a winding road

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<v Speaker 4>south of Byron Bay to the house that Bromwin had

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<v Speaker 4>called her prison, past former dairy and sugar cane farms resident.

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<v Speaker 1>There are some startling similarities between the stories of Bromwin

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<v Speaker 1>Winfield and Lynn Simms. Lynn was the subject of Headley's podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>The Teacher's Pet. Both young mums of two little girls,

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<v Speaker 1>both utterly devoted, both going through a difficult time in

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<v Speaker 1>their marriages, and in both cases the coroner recommended their

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<v Speaker 1>husbands be charged with murder, and a Director of Public

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutions declined to recommend a charge. And here's another similarity.

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<v Speaker 1>The coroner who recommended the charge in both Lynn and

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<v Speaker 1>Bronwin's cases was the same person, Karl Milavanovitch, and the

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<v Speaker 1>DPP who declined was the same person, Nicholas Cowdery.

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<v Speaker 2>While Jonathan Winfield is the last known person to have

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<v Speaker 2>seen her alive, there is no evidence that he killed

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<v Speaker 2>her or had any role in her disappearance. Suspicion cannot

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<v Speaker 2>be substitution for evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>Nick Cowdery Casey was as close as you can get

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<v Speaker 1>to a legal superstar.

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<v Speaker 5>The Beast of Malaglow Ivan Malatt is serving seven life

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<v Speaker 5>terms for the backpacker murders five young women and two men.

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<v Speaker 1>Mohammed skaff was a member of a rape gang that

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<v Speaker 1>terrorized young women in Sydney in the year two thousand.

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<v Speaker 1>He led the agency that prosecuted some of Australia's most

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<v Speaker 1>notorious criminals. He was feisty, fiercely independent and regularly fighting

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<v Speaker 1>with the government and the media.

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<v Speaker 3>Huge cases. What we're looking at now is cases that

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<v Speaker 3>didn't make it too a prosecution during his time as DPP.

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<v Speaker 1>Dave Murray is The Australian's National Crime correspondent and he's

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<v Speaker 1>working with Headley and our team at The Australian on

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast Bronwyn.

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<v Speaker 3>Nicholas Cowdery is Australia's longest serving DPP. He was the

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<v Speaker 3>Director of Public Prosecutions in New South Wales from nineteen

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<v Speaker 3>ninety four to two thousand and eleven, so some sixteen

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<v Speaker 3>and a half years.

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<v Speaker 1>Dvps are very powerful figures in the Australian legal system.

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<v Speaker 1>They run an independent agency which is government funded but

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<v Speaker 1>legally protected from influence or pressure from politicians. Back then,

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<v Speaker 1>the DPP was appointed for life, a measure designed to

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<v Speaker 1>ensure no future government could turf out a chief prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 1>Cowdery would have kept going and could still even be

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<v Speaker 1>DPP today, but there was a quirk in the system

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<v Speaker 1>which meant if he didn't retire before his sixty fifth birthday,

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<v Speaker 1>he'd be denied a pension. Left the job when he

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<v Speaker 1>was sixty four years and three hundred and sixty four

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<v Speaker 1>days of age, and the government subsequently changed the law

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<v Speaker 1>so DPPs are appointed for ten year terms and can't

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<v Speaker 1>be reappointed again. That's designed to protect DPPs from worrying

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<v Speaker 1>about whether or not politicians like their work. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>tough job. The DPP is supposed to only recommend charges

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<v Speaker 1>where there's a reasonable prospect of conviction, but they also

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<v Speaker 1>have to factor in the unpredictability of juries. Sometimes a

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<v Speaker 1>jury might convict even if the evidence is not everything

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution would like it to be.

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<v Speaker 4>In December, Kelly Lane was convicted of murdering her two

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<v Speaker 4>day old baby daughter Teagan in nineteen ninety six.

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<v Speaker 1>The case of Kelly Lane is a good example. It's

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<v Speaker 1>one of those cases people still argue about even after conviction,

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<v Speaker 1>because baby Teagan disappeared without a trace. Lane's family didn't

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<v Speaker 1>eat even though she was pregnant. Kelly Lane had had

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<v Speaker 1>other pregnancies before and after Teagan, and her story was

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<v Speaker 1>that after giving birth, she gave Teagan away. Just like

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<v Speaker 1>in the cases of Bromwin and Lynn. There was no

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<v Speaker 1>forensical crime scene evidence and there were no eyewitnesses to

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<v Speaker 1>an alleged murder, but Kelly Lane was charged. In twenty eighteen,

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<v Speaker 1>Nicholas Cowery talked about the case on the ABC's documentary Exposed,

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<v Speaker 1>reported by Caro Meldrum.

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<v Speaker 5>Hannah, this was an unusual case in that it was

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<v Speaker 5>the possibility of a murder charge without a body, and

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<v Speaker 5>that meant that the other circumstantial evidence had to be

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<v Speaker 5>pretty compelling to justify bringing the proceedings.

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<v Speaker 2>What was your own view?

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<v Speaker 5>My own view was that there was a case of

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<v Speaker 5>murder to be prosecuted. It raised all sorts of values,

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<v Speaker 5>the relationship between a new mother and child, the idea

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<v Speaker 5>of child killing, which is so abhorrent to the community generally,

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<v Speaker 5>the nature of the accused and her conduct over a

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<v Speaker 5>period of time that made it important. That meant it

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<v Speaker 5>it got priority over other cases.

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<v Speaker 1>This next moment in the documentary caused a big controversy

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<v Speaker 1>and saw Nicholas Cowdrey resigned his post as chairman of

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<v Speaker 1>the White Ribbon Foundation, which campaigns to end men's violence

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<v Speaker 1>against women.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't think Kelly Laine was a risk to the

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<v Speaker 5>community and that she would go around killing other people's babies.

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<v Speaker 5>She seemed to bear a bit of a risk to

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<v Speaker 5>the virile, young male portion of the community. That's not

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<v Speaker 5>grounds for putting her in prison.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, Cawtery later apologized for those remarks, saying they

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<v Speaker 1>weren't respectful. In the case of Bromwin Winfield, she disappeared

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety three one Sunday night, after having tucked

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<v Speaker 1>her two little girls into bed. Her husband was the

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<v Speaker 1>last person to see her alive. Of course, he has

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<v Speaker 1>denied any involvement, but later on police interviewed him and

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately the case proceeded to the coroner. Can you just

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<v Speaker 1>explain for us, Dave, what happened to that coronial inquest

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<v Speaker 1>and then what happened after that.

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<v Speaker 3>The coronial inquest was led by the New South Wales

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<v Speaker 3>Deputy State Coroner, Karl Milovanovitch. There were five days of

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<v Speaker 3>hearings that was in accord in Lismore, and at the

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<v Speaker 3>end of that the coroner recommended that a nun person

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<v Speaker 3>mister when Phil Bromwin's husband, be prosecuted over her alleged murder. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>the coroner had to meet two tests to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>The first was that the evidence to be capable of

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<v Speaker 3>satisfying a jury beyond reasonable doubt that a non person

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<v Speaker 3>had committed an indictable offense, so a serious offense such

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<v Speaker 3>as murder. And the second thing was that there had

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<v Speaker 3>to be a reasonable prospect a jury would convict. The

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<v Speaker 3>coroner concluded that was the case that both those tests

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<v Speaker 3>had been met and so he referred it on to

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<v Speaker 3>the DPP.

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<v Speaker 1>The family wasn't happy with the pro former response they

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<v Speaker 1>got from the DPP's office, saying a prosecution wouldn't be happening.

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<v Speaker 1>They demanded a proper explanation. That's what prompted Nick Carterery's

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<v Speaker 1>letter to Andy Reid.

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<v Speaker 3>He actually said there was no evidence that Jonathan Winfield Bromwin,

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<v Speaker 3>the husband, had killed her or had any role in

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<v Speaker 3>her disappearance. And he listed a few factors in explaining this.

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<v Speaker 3>A couple of those were that there was nobody in

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<v Speaker 3>this case and so no cause of death. They're the

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<v Speaker 3>same kind of things he raised in the separate case

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<v Speaker 3>of Lyn Dawson or lind Sims as we know her.

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<v Speaker 1>Now coming up, why the coroner wanted John Winfield prosecuted.

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<v Speaker 1>Bronwyn is available now to our registered users and subscribers

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<v Speaker 1>at bronwynpodcast dot com. You can contact our team with

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<v Speaker 1>any information at Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot

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<v Speaker 1>au and we'll be back after this break. Nicholas Cowdery

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<v Speaker 1>is seventy eight now, and Dave gave him a call

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<v Speaker 1>to find out what he recalled of the case.

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<v Speaker 3>I was interested in talking to Nicholas Cardu. I gave

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<v Speaker 3>him a call. He was driving at the time. He

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<v Speaker 3>had a little trouble hearing me at first, but we

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<v Speaker 3>got there. I explained to him the Bronwyn Winfield case

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<v Speaker 3>and the circumstances behind it, and I asked him if

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<v Speaker 3>he remembered it. He said that he didn't have any

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<v Speaker 3>recollection at all of the Winfield case.

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<v Speaker 2>I had sixteen and a half years of cases, and

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<v Speaker 2>I don't remember all of them. If that's what I

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<v Speaker 2>said at the time, it would have been based on

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<v Speaker 2>the evidence that was available.

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<v Speaker 3>Now he must have covered hundreds, many hundreds thousands of

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<v Speaker 3>cases as DPP, so that isn't entirely surprising, though I

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<v Speaker 3>think for Bromin's faunidly it is obviously such an important

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<v Speaker 3>decision they may have been surprised if he didn't remember it.

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<v Speaker 2>The DPP makes an independent decision about those things, taking

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<v Speaker 2>into account, of course, the recommendation and taking into account

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<v Speaker 2>the evidence at the inquest.

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<v Speaker 3>I was also interested in asking him whether his approach

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<v Speaker 3>to cases of missing women would change now if he

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<v Speaker 3>had the chance. He's seventy eight years old, he is retired.

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<v Speaker 3>Would he have done things any differently? And he has

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<v Speaker 3>a straight away no, he would do it exactly the same.

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<v Speaker 2>I would look at the facts that we're able to

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<v Speaker 2>be proved on the evidence, and I would look at

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<v Speaker 2>the law and I would look at the prosecution guidelines.

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<v Speaker 2>They were taken into account then and they are taken

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<v Speaker 2>into account now by the DPP.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, we don't know what happened to Bromwinn Winfield.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobody has ever been charged, her body has never been found.

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<v Speaker 1>But we can probably assume, can't we, Dave, that she

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<v Speaker 1>has met with her death. That's what the coroner found,

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<v Speaker 1>and that she may well have been the victim of

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<v Speaker 1>violence by someone who we don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>The coroner was certainly comfortable to conclude that Roman Winfield

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<v Speaker 3>was no longer alive, and he said that she had

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<v Speaker 3>died honor about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's when she was last seen by her husband,

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<v Speaker 3>Jonathan Winfield.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been covering crime for a long time, Dave. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>violence against women is the big theme of Australian society.

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<v Speaker 1>It's something that everybody is talking about. There have been

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<v Speaker 1>dozens of murders of women this year in Australia. What's

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<v Speaker 1>your view about those judgment calls that were being made

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties about not

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<v Speaker 1>proceeding with charges in the cases of women who disappeared.

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<v Speaker 3>Clearly, there has to be the evidence there to go

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<v Speaker 3>ahead with such a serious charge and prosecution of the

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<v Speaker 3>most serious offense you can get, murder. So anyone would say,

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<v Speaker 3>of course it's important that the evidence be there. But

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<v Speaker 3>looking back now, we can see that society used things

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<v Speaker 3>differently now than we did back then, and police, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>I think, perhaps looked at these cases and thought these

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<v Speaker 3>were cases of runaway mumps, so people who might have

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<v Speaker 3>run off with a new boyfriend or something like that.

0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.640
<v Speaker 3>And that's certainly a concern that's been raised by the

0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 3>former coroner Karl Milovanovitch, that there was a systemic issue there.

0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.200
<v Speaker 3>So I think it's really valuable now to go back

0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.280
<v Speaker 3>and look at these past cases and say where these

0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:49.800
<v Speaker 3>actually assessed the right way. These are sometimes circumstantial cases,

0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 3>obviously with nobody that they're missing, women have never been found,

0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.280
<v Speaker 3>But did we actually sit down and assess all of

0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.360
<v Speaker 3>the evidence fully and properly in the right way.

0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.720
<v Speaker 1>You also sat through the trial of Christopher Dawson for

0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.520
<v Speaker 1>murder Dave. Of course, he is now appealing before the

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Court of Criminal Appeal saying that the judgment was unsound

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 1>and that he should be released from prison. What's your

0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.320
<v Speaker 1>view in that matter where nobody was found, it was

0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 1>an entirely circumstantial case of the likelihood of getting convictions

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:22.960
<v Speaker 1>in these matters where there is nobody.

0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.760
<v Speaker 3>My opinion in any case has always been to reserve

0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 3>judgment until you get all of the evidence. You can't

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 3>really do that sitting on the sidelines and just picking

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.200
<v Speaker 3>up little bits and pieces when you actually, I think,

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.600
<v Speaker 3>sit down in a trial, a full trial like we

0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 3>did with Chris Dawson, and you see all of the evidence,

0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:44.960
<v Speaker 3>and then at the end of that you can really

0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 3>weigh it all up, assess it and make a conclusion.

0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.560
<v Speaker 3>And I think at the end of that case the

0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.040
<v Speaker 3>evidence was overwhelming that Chris Dawson was guilty of his

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.560
<v Speaker 3>wife Lin's murder. But that of course does not mean

0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.400
<v Speaker 3>that Jonathan Winfield had anything to do with the disappearance

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.320
<v Speaker 3>of his wife, and he firmly denies it. I think

0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.360
<v Speaker 3>once again here we are trying to gather all the evidence,

0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 3>look at all the evidence before you come to a conclusion.

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:19.240
<v Speaker 1>Dave Murray is the Australian's National Crime correspondent. You can

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 1>read all his reporting and all our stories as well

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 1>as listen to the podcast Bromwyin right now by joining

0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:29.080
<v Speaker 1>our subscribers at the Australian dot com dot au