Speaker 1: Welcome to Healthyish. Thank you for joining us today. I
Speaker 1: hope you are having a healthysh day. Of course. I
Speaker 1: am Felicity Harley, host of this daily podcast from Body
Speaker 1: and Soul. Today we're joined by Soria Chamalay.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: She's an award winning writer, journalist, and activist. You may
Speaker 1: have read her first book called Rage Becomes Her. Well,
Speaker 1: today we're talking about her new one, the Resilience Myth,
Speaker 1: and why she's calling for a paradigm shift around the
Speaker 1: word resilience. Now, if you like what you hear from soriah,
Speaker 1: I know you will make sure you're listening to extra
Speaker 1: Healthy Ish, where she talks about the importance of cognitive flexibility.
Speaker 1: You can search for that one wherever you get your
Speaker 1: podcasts Jariah, thank you for joining us today, all the
Speaker 1: way from the US Survey. How are you.
Speaker 3: I'm well, Thank you, I'm delighted to talk to you, Felicity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking. I'm actually very looking forward to this chat. Now.
Speaker 1: Your book is very powerful, it's so well researched. You
Speaker 1: are calling for resilience to almost be rebranded. What is
Speaker 1: our current view flawed or what's your view of how
Speaker 1: we view it right now?
Speaker 2: I think the way we view it now is quite
Speaker 2: narrowly defined and limited, and in fact, what I'm arguing
Speaker 2: is that that definition and those limits undermine us actually
Speaker 2: in lifelong resilience. And so I'm arguing for a paradigm
Speaker 2: shift between thinking about resilience and highly internal, mind based
Speaker 2: and individualistic ways and thinking of it more relationally. How
Speaker 2: do we actually create environments in which people can be resilient?
Speaker 3: How do we.
Speaker 2: Sustain relationships of mutual care so that, in fact, when
Speaker 2: we aren't feeling quote unquote strong, it's okay.
Speaker 3: To rely on other people.
Speaker 2: It's okay to ask for help without feeling shame or
Speaker 2: without feeling like you're vulnerable, fragile and.
Speaker 1: Not resilient, which is okay because you're almost saying, you know,
Speaker 1: there's so much masculinity around resilience today. It's like, you
Speaker 1: hard not be strong, You'll be okay, But often we
Speaker 1: just can't. We just don't feel like that when we're
Speaker 1: in the groups of something terrible.
Speaker 2: That's right, and it's okay to feel grief, It's okay
Speaker 2: to feel loss. It's you know, this idea that, especially
Speaker 2: in our society, which is an accelerated society, this idea
Speaker 2: that you have to feel good fast and that somehow
Speaker 2: that is resilience. But if you feel good fast at
Speaker 2: great cost to yourself, to your relationships, to the people
Speaker 2: around you, that's really not resilience. That's the performance of
Speaker 2: this kind of distorted ideal. And so I'm really just
Speaker 2: arguing for a more compassionate, relational care based notion of
Speaker 2: resilience that allow us to be resilient for one another.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you might have needs that I can
Speaker 2: help you with, and vice versa. We don't have to
Speaker 2: be stoic, strong, mentally tough, have fortitude every second of
Speaker 2: every day in every context for our entire lives. It's
Speaker 2: an impossible goal, you know. So I just think it's
Speaker 2: healthier and more reasonable to think what's actually happening?
Speaker 3: What is it that we want when we say resilience.
Speaker 1: I think there was a lovely phrase you used in
Speaker 1: the book called collective care, and I thought this for
Speaker 1: me was such a it's almost as softening. But let's
Speaker 1: just put our arms around each other like that is
Speaker 1: resilience to me, whereas often and hold each other up
Speaker 1: exactly exactly, and often that is seen as you know,
Speaker 1: naediness is seen as weak.
Speaker 2: It's seen as weak, and also it's just not valued,
Speaker 2: you know. I think in Australia, as in the United States,
Speaker 2: we have this rugged individualism, we have this his darric
Speaker 2: recognition of people who had to stand on their own
Speaker 2: two feet and go into the wilderness and survive. And
Speaker 2: you know, that may have been true in a certain time,
Speaker 2: in a certain context, but it has long outlived its
Speaker 2: expiration date. We live in dense communities, we live in
Speaker 2: closely networked societies, we live in conditions of complete dependence
Speaker 2: on each other interdependence, and yet that ideal hasn't shifted
Speaker 2: to go along with that.
Speaker 1: Now a lot of us are almost you know, too
Speaker 1: embarrassed or ashamed, or we don't ask for help when
Speaker 1: we're in the midst of trauma or stress because that
Speaker 1: also is the other herd or when it comes to
Speaker 1: shifting this you know, let's called brand of resilience. How
Speaker 1: can we get better at this and asking for help
Speaker 1: and putting a hand up and saying I'm not okay.
Speaker 2: You know, I think one of the most important changes
Speaker 2: we can make is to think about how invested in
Speaker 2: the mind our myths are. Be mentally tough be strong,
Speaker 2: develop grit, be optimistic, you have gratitude. It's all focused
Speaker 2: inside of us, and not just inside of us as
Speaker 2: bodies that have material needs, but inside of our disembodied minds.
Speaker 3: And what that.
Speaker 2: Does is it detaches our approaches to resilience and adaptation
Speaker 2: from the very real, pragmatic fact of our fragility of
Speaker 2: our bodies, of our needing food, needing water, needing companionship.
Speaker 2: And so if we're overly invested, as we are in
Speaker 2: this hierarchy of mind over body, then it's easier to
Speaker 2: ignore the body, ignore other people's needs, and essentially tolerate
Speaker 2: brutality against entire categories of people and then say, well,
Speaker 2: they're just not strong enough, you know. And so it's important,
Speaker 2: I think, to realize that if we can admit that
Speaker 2: we have these bodies and that they are bodies of
Speaker 2: need and that there's no shame in that, it gets
Speaker 2: easier to ask for help. It gets easier to say
Speaker 2: I need, I need right now for you to help
Speaker 2: me to support me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Can you give us some tangible ways that
Speaker 1: we can perhaps take action, you know, whether we want
Speaker 1: to help ourselves build our own resilience, So whether there's
Speaker 1: people around us who perhaps are going through a tough time.
Speaker 3: It's important to rest.
Speaker 2: It's important to depend on people and feel that there's
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3: You're not a bad woman.
Speaker 2: For example, if you actually say I'm completely sleep deprived,
Speaker 2: I need help, you know, whatever your situation might be,
Speaker 2: I'd say that's one thing. The other thing is we
Speaker 2: hear a lot about the importance of optimism and gratitude
Speaker 2: and how it's important to keep a positive attitude, and
Speaker 2: all of that is true, but not if it's untempered.
Speaker 2: People can hold on to optimism in a way that
Speaker 2: distorts reality, that reduces their ability to assess risk, and
Speaker 2: that definitely undermines their ability to.
Speaker 3: Plan to avoid adversity and trauma.
Speaker 2: So I advocate instead for cognitive flexibility and strategic pessimism.
Speaker 2: You can be optimistic, certainly, but it's also important to
Speaker 2: be realistic. And I will note that the important thing
Speaker 2: about optimism that we again don't talk about, isn't that
Speaker 2: it's just a state of mind.
Speaker 3: It is that optimistic people tend to have.
Speaker 2: The ability to attract other people around them, and so again, relationally,
Speaker 2: it's more about the fact that they have social networks
Speaker 2: that they have people they can rely on than it
Speaker 2: is about being positive.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Sarah, thank you so much for your us
Speaker 1: on healthy Ish.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Thanks.
Speaker 1: For listening to this chat with Soriah. If you do
Speaker 1: want to read more about well, a new view on resilience,
Speaker 1: perhaps the one we meet well I think it is.
Speaker 1: Her book is called The Resilience Myth, New thinking on
Speaker 1: grit's strength and growth after trauma. It is out now.
Speaker 1: I will leave a link to it in the show notes.
Speaker 1: If you did enjoy this chat, tell us rate and
Speaker 1: review it, or of course, subscribe to this podcast. Anything else,
Speaker 1: head to bodyansoul dot com dot au, follow us on socials,
Speaker 1: grab our print edition which is out in your local
Speaker 1: Sunday paper, and until tomorrow stay healthy ish