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Speaker 1: Welcome to Healthyish. Thank you for joining us today. I

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Speaker 1: hope you are having a healthysh day. Of course. I

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Speaker 1: am Felicity Harley, host of this daily podcast from Body

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Speaker 1: and Soul. Today we're joined by Soria Chamalay.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: She's an award winning writer, journalist, and activist. You may

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Speaker 1: have read her first book called Rage Becomes Her. Well,

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about her new one, the Resilience Myth,

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Speaker 1: and why she's calling for a paradigm shift around the

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Speaker 1: word resilience. Now, if you like what you hear from soriah,

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Speaker 1: I know you will make sure you're listening to extra

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Speaker 1: Healthy Ish, where she talks about the importance of cognitive flexibility.

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Speaker 1: You can search for that one wherever you get your

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Speaker 1: podcasts Jariah, thank you for joining us today, all the

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Speaker 1: way from the US Survey. How are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm well, Thank you, I'm delighted to talk to you, Felicity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking. I'm actually very looking forward to this chat. Now.

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Speaker 1: Your book is very powerful, it's so well researched. You

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Speaker 1: are calling for resilience to almost be rebranded. What is

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Speaker 1: our current view flawed or what's your view of how

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Speaker 1: we view it right now?

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Speaker 2: I think the way we view it now is quite

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Speaker 2: narrowly defined and limited, and in fact, what I'm arguing

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Speaker 2: is that that definition and those limits undermine us actually

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Speaker 2: in lifelong resilience. And so I'm arguing for a paradigm

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Speaker 2: shift between thinking about resilience and highly internal, mind based

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Speaker 2: and individualistic ways and thinking of it more relationally. How

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Speaker 2: do we actually create environments in which people can be resilient?

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Speaker 3: How do we.

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Speaker 2: Sustain relationships of mutual care so that, in fact, when

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Speaker 2: we aren't feeling quote unquote strong, it's okay.

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Speaker 3: To rely on other people.

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Speaker 2: It's okay to ask for help without feeling shame or

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Speaker 2: without feeling like you're vulnerable, fragile and.

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Speaker 1: Not resilient, which is okay because you're almost saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's so much masculinity around resilience today. It's like, you

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Speaker 1: hard not be strong, You'll be okay, But often we

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Speaker 1: just can't. We just don't feel like that when we're

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Speaker 1: in the groups of something terrible.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and it's okay to feel grief, It's okay

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Speaker 2: to feel loss. It's you know, this idea that, especially

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Speaker 2: in our society, which is an accelerated society, this idea

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Speaker 2: that you have to feel good fast and that somehow

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Speaker 2: that is resilience. But if you feel good fast at

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Speaker 2: great cost to yourself, to your relationships, to the people

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Speaker 2: around you, that's really not resilience. That's the performance of

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Speaker 2: this kind of distorted ideal. And so I'm really just

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Speaker 2: arguing for a more compassionate, relational care based notion of

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Speaker 2: resilience that allow us to be resilient for one another.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you might have needs that I can

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Speaker 2: help you with, and vice versa. We don't have to

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Speaker 2: be stoic, strong, mentally tough, have fortitude every second of

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Speaker 2: every day in every context for our entire lives. It's

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Speaker 2: an impossible goal, you know. So I just think it's

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Speaker 2: healthier and more reasonable to think what's actually happening?

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Speaker 3: What is it that we want when we say resilience.

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Speaker 1: I think there was a lovely phrase you used in

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Speaker 1: the book called collective care, and I thought this for

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Speaker 1: me was such a it's almost as softening. But let's

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Speaker 1: just put our arms around each other like that is

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Speaker 1: resilience to me, whereas often and hold each other up

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly, and often that is seen as you know,

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Speaker 1: naediness is seen as weak.

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Speaker 2: It's seen as weak, and also it's just not valued,

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Speaker 2: you know. I think in Australia, as in the United States,

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Speaker 2: we have this rugged individualism, we have this his darric

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Speaker 2: recognition of people who had to stand on their own

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Speaker 2: two feet and go into the wilderness and survive. And

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Speaker 2: you know, that may have been true in a certain time,

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Speaker 2: in a certain context, but it has long outlived its

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Speaker 2: expiration date. We live in dense communities, we live in

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Speaker 2: closely networked societies, we live in conditions of complete dependence

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Speaker 2: on each other interdependence, and yet that ideal hasn't shifted

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Speaker 2: to go along with that.

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Speaker 1: Now a lot of us are almost you know, too

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Speaker 1: embarrassed or ashamed, or we don't ask for help when

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Speaker 1: we're in the midst of trauma or stress because that

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Speaker 1: also is the other herd or when it comes to

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Speaker 1: shifting this you know, let's called brand of resilience. How

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Speaker 1: can we get better at this and asking for help

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Speaker 1: and putting a hand up and saying I'm not okay.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think one of the most important changes

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Speaker 2: we can make is to think about how invested in

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Speaker 2: the mind our myths are. Be mentally tough be strong,

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Speaker 2: develop grit, be optimistic, you have gratitude. It's all focused

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Speaker 2: inside of us, and not just inside of us as

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Speaker 2: bodies that have material needs, but inside of our disembodied minds.

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Speaker 3: And what that.

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Speaker 2: Does is it detaches our approaches to resilience and adaptation

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Speaker 2: from the very real, pragmatic fact of our fragility of

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Speaker 2: our bodies, of our needing food, needing water, needing companionship.

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Speaker 2: And so if we're overly invested, as we are in

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Speaker 2: this hierarchy of mind over body, then it's easier to

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Speaker 2: ignore the body, ignore other people's needs, and essentially tolerate

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Speaker 2: brutality against entire categories of people and then say, well,

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Speaker 2: they're just not strong enough, you know. And so it's important,

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Speaker 2: I think, to realize that if we can admit that

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Speaker 2: we have these bodies and that they are bodies of

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Speaker 2: need and that there's no shame in that, it gets

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Speaker 2: easier to ask for help. It gets easier to say

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Speaker 2: I need, I need right now for you to help

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Speaker 2: me to support me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Can you give us some tangible ways that

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Speaker 1: we can perhaps take action, you know, whether we want

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Speaker 1: to help ourselves build our own resilience, So whether there's

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Speaker 1: people around us who perhaps are going through a tough time.

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Speaker 3: It's important to rest.

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Speaker 2: It's important to depend on people and feel that there's

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Speaker 2: nothing wrong with that.

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Speaker 3: You're not a bad woman.

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Speaker 2: For example, if you actually say I'm completely sleep deprived,

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Speaker 2: I need help, you know, whatever your situation might be,

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Speaker 2: I'd say that's one thing. The other thing is we

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Speaker 2: hear a lot about the importance of optimism and gratitude

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Speaker 2: and how it's important to keep a positive attitude, and

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Speaker 2: all of that is true, but not if it's untempered.

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Speaker 2: People can hold on to optimism in a way that

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Speaker 2: distorts reality, that reduces their ability to assess risk, and

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Speaker 2: that definitely undermines their ability to.

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Speaker 3: Plan to avoid adversity and trauma.

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Speaker 2: So I advocate instead for cognitive flexibility and strategic pessimism.

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Speaker 2: You can be optimistic, certainly, but it's also important to

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Speaker 2: be realistic. And I will note that the important thing

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Speaker 2: about optimism that we again don't talk about, isn't that

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Speaker 2: it's just a state of mind.

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Speaker 3: It is that optimistic people tend to have.

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Speaker 2: The ability to attract other people around them, and so again, relationally,

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Speaker 2: it's more about the fact that they have social networks

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Speaker 2: that they have people they can rely on than it

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Speaker 2: is about being positive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, Sarah, thank you so much for your us

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Speaker 1: on healthy Ish.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Thanks.

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Speaker 1: For listening to this chat with Soriah. If you do

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Speaker 1: want to read more about well, a new view on resilience,

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Speaker 1: perhaps the one we meet well I think it is.

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Speaker 1: Her book is called The Resilience Myth, New thinking on

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Speaker 1: grit's strength and growth after trauma. It is out now.

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Speaker 1: I will leave a link to it in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: If you did enjoy this chat, tell us rate and

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Speaker 1: review it, or of course, subscribe to this podcast. Anything else,

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Speaker 1: head to bodyansoul dot com dot au, follow us on socials,

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Speaker 1: grab our print edition which is out in your local

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Speaker 1: Sunday paper, and until tomorrow stay healthy ish