1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: It loaded down that suv so low that it pushed 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: the springs right down. 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 2: It was totally overloaded. They had left it with. 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: Eight live rounds in the magazine and a semi automatic rifle, 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: which is a cardinal's sin of gun handling. Other cartridges 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: that have been taken were nine millimeter pistol ammunition. They 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: took lots of it from his place. None came back, 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: not one round. All these nine millimeter pistol ammunition had vanished. 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm andrew rule, is this life and crimes. Funny things 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: happen out there in the world of policing, particularly when 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: police are asked to do extra things like seas firearms 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: and ammunition, and sometimes they have to do this. It 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: happens when maybe a licensed shooter has died and they've 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: got to go out and pick up their guns and ammunition, 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: or it happens when a licensed shooter gets into some 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: sort of trouble with the law and they've got to 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: go out and pick. 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: Up the stuff. 19 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: And it often happens that police are raiding are suspects 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: premises and they might find guns or ammunition not properly 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: locked up, and they might find guns and ammunition which 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: is not kept securely in a safe as it should 23 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: be by law, and therefore naturally they seize it. And 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: so there are a lot of reasons for police. Victoria 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: police and every other police force in the country two 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: have to from time to time sees firearms and ammunition. 27 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: And that's a good thing. 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 1: However, there's always a butt, and the butt is this 29 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: there is I would suggest a disturbing undercurrent discernible in Victoria. 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: One keeps hearing stories of legitimate licensed shooters who have 31 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: a grievance against one particular branch of the police force, 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: if not more. But the particular branch of the police 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: use force they have a grievance against is the licensing 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 1: and Registration branch, which has headquarters in Collingwood, where there 35 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: is a police Property office and where along with all 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: sorts of other property, firearms and ammunition is stored are seized. Now, 37 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: it would appear some would say that the organization of 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: the branch is so chaotic that firearms and ammunition get 39 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: lost in the system. They get lost forever, and it 40 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: is alleged by some people that they vanish that firearms 41 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: and ammunition, particularly ammunition, because that's so anonymous there's quite 42 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: a lot of it that it just disappears like twenty 43 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: cent pieces down the back of the couch. All of 44 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: this brings us to a fresh example, and that is 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: the example which is the subject of a story which 46 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: I had reascent published in the Sunday Herald Sun. 47 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: And that is the. 48 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: Story of a man called Sam Mahfood. And Sam is 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: a man now in his seventies. He came to this 50 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: country in nineteen sixty eight when he was about nineteen 51 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: years old. He came from Syria. When he got here, 52 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: he couldn't speak much English, but he was a very 53 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: good mechanic. He'd done his apprenticeship in Syria. He was 54 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: a very able mechanic, clearly a capable hard working man, 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: because he got jobs at General Motors Holden and later 56 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: on at the Ford Motor Factory and other places garages 57 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: or whatever. And he was promoted into positions of trust 58 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: where he would be running a division at the Motoruka 59 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: assembly plant. And he really became quite a trusted, practical 60 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: mechanical engineer. And Sam was able to marry I think 61 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: possibly his childhood sweetheart, and he had quite a big 62 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: bunch of kids and they all grew up and had 63 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: more kids, and really Sam Mafud and his wife Vicki 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: are one of the great success stories of post war 65 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: migration in Australia. Now, Sam, like a lot of other people, 66 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: had a hobby. Some people play bowls, some played golf, 67 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: some ride bikes, some go fishing. 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: Many go fishing. 69 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: But Sam was always a fan of target shooting. And 70 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: he started out as many people from Europe and the 71 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,239 Speaker 1: Middle East do. He was keen on shotguns and he 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: transferred from the idea of hunting live game to shooting 73 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: at clay targets and he did that and he got 74 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: quite good at it. Then he took on rifle shooting, 75 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: and as he got more spare time in middle age, 76 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: he took up pistol shooting as well. So he was 77 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: a prolific target shooter in all disciplines of firearms, or 78 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: most disciplines of firearms. And in fact he's a collector. 79 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: He's got everything from air rifles and air pistols all 80 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: the way through to quite heavy caliber sporting rifles and 81 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: heavy caliber handguns which he uses for club target shooting. 82 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: This is what he does, this is what he likes doing. 83 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: He's also been a guy that's owned Broad Acres. He 84 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: had a pretty big property up in the Heathcote which 85 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: has recently been sold, which is relevant to our story. 86 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: And he's also got a property up closer to Ballarat 87 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: where he lives in retirement with his wife Vicki, and 88 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: his biggest hobby, of course, is to go to the 89 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: local target shooting venues and shoot targets. But then a 90 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: strange thing happened to Sam Muffoot, respectable grandfather, back in 91 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: the year of twenty twenty one, during COVID, he decided 92 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: that he would sell his large block of land which 93 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: is up past Heathcot and it's open country, bit scrubby, 94 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: lots of fox and rabbits and all. 95 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: That sort of stuff that he used to shoot. 96 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: And he decided that it was time to sell it 97 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: because presumably he'd owned it for a couple of decades 98 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: and had gone up in value. And he spread the 99 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: word that he wanted to sell it. And one of 100 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: the people he told was a female state agent. Now 101 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: whether this person was a registered state agent or not 102 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: does not matter. This person said to Sam, yes, Sam, 103 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: I know you. I think I can sell your block, 104 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: your farm, and you know I'll do it for X 105 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: amount of commission, a percentage, whatever it might be. And 106 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: he said, yes, that's very good to this lady. And 107 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: he knew her because he used to go target shooting 108 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: with her brother. So brothers were keen target shooters, and 109 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: that's how they knew each other. And so this woman 110 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: adds Sam's block to her list of properties for sale, 111 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: but she doesn't actually sell it. She doesn't come up 112 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: with a buyer in the matter of weeks, and Sam meanwhile, 113 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: has found a buyer himself. 114 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: Elsewhere. 115 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: He found another buyer, possibly through another agent, don't know, 116 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: but he sold the place to someone else. And when 117 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: the first agent heard about this, she was not happy, 118 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: and she came to Sam and said, look, you owe 119 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: me the price of the commission because I've lost the 120 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to sell it. Whereas you told me that I 121 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: could sell it, and now I can't because you've sold it, 122 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: and you owe me three hundred dollars or something something 123 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: like that, a bit over nine grand in commission. And 124 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: Sam said, no, you didn't sell it. I don't know 125 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: you anything, but seeing as you're upset, I'm going to 126 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: give you half. I'll give you four and a half 127 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars just to go away and leave me alone. 128 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: She said no, She said, you know, sort of buy 129 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: your bum basically, and she said there'll be repercussions. I'll 130 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: fix you up, or words to that effect. And what 131 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: that woman did, and this is an indictment on the 132 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: way that our system can be abused pipulated. She went 133 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: to broad Meadows Police station, now not the Ballarat up 134 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: where Sam lives. She went to broad Meadows and she 135 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: went in there and saw a sergeant and a policewoman, 136 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: two police officers, and she said, I want an AVO, 137 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: an apprehended violence order against Sama Mafood. His real name 138 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: is Samir sm Mafood. And she spelled it out to 139 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: them who he was, where he lived, the whole thing, 140 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: and she said, i want this apprehended violence order because 141 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: I've had a disagreement with him, and I know that 142 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: he's got guns and ammunition and so forth, and I'm 143 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: scared that there'll be a problem that he might try 144 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: and intimidate me or frighten me, and I need this AVO. 145 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: And the police, God bless them, they just wrote it 146 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: out as if it was a raffle ticket. They wrote 147 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: out in a v O and handed it over, and 148 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: she was very happy because she knew that as soon 149 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: as they communicated the fact of the AVO to their 150 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: counterparts at Ballarat, which is the relevant police station where 151 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: Sam and his wife live, she knew that state agent 152 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: who's basically trying to punish him over money. She knows 153 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: that those police will be obligated under the regulations to 154 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: check Sam's firearm status on the database and it'll come 155 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: up that he's a shooter, license shooter and he's got 156 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: x y Z guns, quite a lot of guns, probably 157 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: more than twenty actually, because he shoots in so many 158 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: different disciplines and he's a licensed collector. It's nothing sinister 159 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: about it. And he's got a lot of ammunition. So 160 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: the Ballarat police of course do this. It's routine, they 161 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: have to do it. So Ballarat Police, I think, might 162 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: have got it. This is where it gets cloudy. They 163 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: might have got one or two police from nearby Balan, 164 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: which is sort of the play where Sam and his 165 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: wife lives, might be between Ballarat and the land, let's say. 166 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: And so they put together a bit of a mixed 167 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: bag of police to go out and seize the firearms 168 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: and the ammunition, and it would appear that what happened 169 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: was they go out to the property. The front gate 170 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: is locked. The house is about five hundred meters in 171 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: from the front gate. They haven't made an appointment to 172 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: meet Sam or get the gate unlocked, and I think 173 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: somebody sat there with the two police cars while I 174 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: think two or the other police jump over the fence 175 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: or jump over the gate, climb over it and walk 176 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: up to the house. Now this is not strictly dimensional 177 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: or necessarily even legal. I think probably what they're sposed 178 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: to do. 179 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: At least, it would be very. 180 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: Good manners and good policy for police to make an 181 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: appointment and then have a gate open for them and then. 182 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: Go up there. So they walk up to the house. 183 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Now Sam's not there, he's shopping in Ballarat or somewhere, 184 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: and missus Mafood, Sam's wife, who I think actually possibly 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: has a serious illness. She's lying down on her bed 186 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: in her bedroom having arrest as she's entitled to do 187 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: it at the age of seventy odd and she's got 188 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: two little grandkids there, just young kids. I think one 189 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: was six or seven and one was a bit older, 190 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: and they've run into their grandmother saying, Grannie, Grannie, there's 191 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: these men knocking on the window and they've got guns 192 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: and they say they're the police, and she's quite perturbed. 193 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: She gets up. She opens the front door and asks 194 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: them to come in, which they don't do, which is fine, 195 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: And they said we're here to see Sam, a licensed 196 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: her about his firearms, etc. She said, well, he's not 197 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: here and we'll ring him. So she wrings sam'sy's come home, 198 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: come home. 199 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: The police are here. 200 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: They want to see your guns and stuff. So Sam 201 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: comes home. He opens the front gate and drives in 202 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: and this allows the police sort are left at the 203 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: gate with the cars to bring in two police cars, 204 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: two SUVs, one blue one on one white one. As 205 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: I understand it now, the numbers of police and things 206 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: are a little bit cloudy here. But the truth is 207 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: that when Sam gets there and it all settles itself, 208 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: what he finds is two police cars and three police officers. 209 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: Sam calls one of them the detective. Now this would 210 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: suggest that this person was wearing casual clothes, not uniform. 211 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: He thinks the other two were uniform police because I 212 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: think they had on the sort of black gear. That's 213 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: the way Sam saw it. Sam might be wrong. Sam 214 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: might be right, but as he told the story to me, 215 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: and he has no reason to change it or make 216 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: it up, because who cares. He calls one of these officers, 217 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: the detective, and the other two and as he sees it, 218 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: the person he calls the detective was in charge. He 219 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: was running the show. And Sam thought, this is unusual. 220 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: Usually they don't send detectives out to pick up firearms 221 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: or ammunition. He knows this from other members of the 222 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: target club. Usually it's this uniform job. And he said, 223 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: how come detective came? How come you're here? And the 224 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: detectives said to him, oh, I shouldn't be here, but 225 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: I got roped into it because there weren't enough people 226 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: at the station. Now was he saying Ballarat station? Was 227 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: he saying the land station? I don't know for sure. 228 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: I don't know who that person was. I don't know 229 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: if that person was a detective or was just some 230 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: other guy and playing clothes. 231 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: I do not know. 232 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: But what we do know is this. There were three police, 233 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: three male police with all the you know, they've got guns, 234 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: they got the full equipment belt, and they've got the 235 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 1: body cameras. Body cam which is interesting and will prove 236 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: probably very interesting in future if this court, which it may, well, 237 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: they demand Sam's key's for his gun safes. Now, Sam's 238 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: a little old bloke. He's in his seventies. He's small. 239 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: I won't say he's frail, but you know he's not 240 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: twenty five years old. He's seventy something. He says that 241 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: the one he calls the detective was quite bumptious, quite rude, 242 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: quite brusque, and the other two, in fact, were quite 243 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: polite and quite pleasant. And he thought quite embarrassed at 244 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: the way the detective treated Sam. Sam thought the detective 245 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: treated him badly and was rude to him and borderline racist. 246 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: Sam is a Syrian by birth. He's Middle Eastern. He 247 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: has a thick accent. 248 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: He's English. 249 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: He is sort of semi broken. It's quite good, but 250 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: it's broken. He didn't learn it to leave us twenty 251 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: years old. So the one he calls the detective push 252 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: into the bedroom, he says, he opens the safe with 253 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: the key, and he reaches into the safe and pulls 254 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: stuff out. Now this makes Sam unhappy because he said, well, 255 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: he should be asking me to do that. He should 256 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: ask me for this firearm. Or this, firearm ors whatever 257 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: from a list that he's printed out, and then I 258 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: would hand them to him as he asked for them, 259 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: which is the procedure. But this bloke just went there 260 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: and started to help himself. And Sam, not that he's 261 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: overly suspicious, but he didn't trust this process because he thought, well, 262 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: apart from anything else, they could plant something in the safe. 263 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: If you let somebody into the safe ahead of you, 264 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: you don't know what they might do. They might be 265 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: able to plant something incriminating in the safe and cause 266 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: trouble for you, and that wouldn't be good. So Sam 267 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: was quite agitated by this, and he made his point 268 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: to them without being rude or anything, and said, you're 269 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: not doing this the right way. You didn't ring me, 270 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: you didn't make an appointment handling this stuff without me 271 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: handing it to you. And what I do want you 272 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: to do is to write down what it is you're taking, 273 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: because what Sam had was, apart from a big safe 274 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: full of guns, he had two other saves full of ammunition. 275 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: And I'm talking large safes and large amounts of ammunition. 276 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: Because Sam is one of these guys, it's became a 277 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: borderline o possessive hobby. And I've seen guys like this. 278 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: We've all seen them, guys that play golf for ride 279 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: bikes or something. They cannot help themselves. They go and 280 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: buy a better putter, they buy a better driver, They 281 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: buy you five dozen really high class balls because they're 282 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: four dollars off, and they end up with a shed 283 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: full of gear that really they don't need at all, 284 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: They only need some of it, but they can't stop 285 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: themselves collecting the stuff. And Sam had spent most of 286 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: his adult life going to sports shops, gun shops, and 287 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: gun shows, where if he saw or a bargain in 288 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: the way of ammunition, he would buy it. And he 289 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: thought his attitude was, well, if I can buy it cheaply, 290 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: I can split it up with my friends at the 291 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: gun clubs, and you know, it's a good thing to have. 292 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: And the price of ammunition goes up continually year on year. 293 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: If I can buy it cheaply, I'm ahead of the game. 294 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: And God bless him, that's his business, what he does 295 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: with his own money, and what he'd done with a 296 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: lot of it. He'd bought probably forty or fifty thousand 297 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: dollars worth of ammo over, you know, probably two or 298 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: three decades, so it's not out of the way. But 299 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: it's a lot of ammo. And there are cartons of 300 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: this ammo, and it's big and it's heavy, there's lots 301 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: of it. For all that, it wouldn't be hard to 302 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: count by the packet, wouldn't be hard to open a 303 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: cart on and say, well, this is obviously twenty packets 304 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: of forty rounds each, that's eight hundred or whatever it 305 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: might be. They didn't do that, Samsung, please count it out. 306 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: And the detective said to him, I haven't got time 307 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: for that. We haven't got time. Just loaded up and 308 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: he ordered the other two police, who were looking quite 309 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: embarrassed about this. They didn't really think it was a 310 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: great idea because they know SEMs just a nice old culture, 311 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: and it all smelt. 312 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: Wrong to them. 313 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: According to Sam's thoughts about them, he thought they were embarrassed. 314 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: They carry it out and placed in one of the SUVs. 315 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,959 Speaker 1: There is so much ammunition here, listeners, two big broad 316 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: high safes full of ammunition that it loaded down that 317 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: suv so low that it pushed the springs right down 318 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: so that it was nearly bellying onto the tires. 319 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 2: It was totally overloaded. 320 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 1: They needed a one ton Newt and they're loading it 321 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: into an suv. That gets a bit sad if it's 322 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: got half a ton in the back, and it was sad. 323 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 2: It was overloaded. 324 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: And eventually they've loaded everything up, including SEM's firearms, which 325 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: are right full shotguns, pistols. There's more than twenty all up, 326 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: twenty something and they put them sort of in where 327 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: the passenger seat would fold down, and they've put all 328 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: the ammunition behind it. And then they've driven away. But 329 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: they've written down the guns. You know, here's one Savage 330 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: twenty two, here's one Ruga two two three, whatever it 331 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: might be. But they haven't noted the ammunition. They haven't 332 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: counted the ammunition. They've merely written on the receipt ammunition various. Now, 333 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: that covers a lot of ground. That is like calling 334 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: World War II an international incident. They leave, As far 335 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: as we know, they go to Ballarat. As far as 336 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: we know, they unloaded at Ballarat Police station. But how 337 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: can we be sure. We don't know if they went 338 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: straight there, We don't know if they went somewhere else first. 339 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: We just don't know. No one knows it would appear, 340 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: except possibly whoever drove that car. Now, not even all 341 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: three of the police might know, because they had two cars, 342 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: so at least one of them drives the other one. 343 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: Possibly two of them drive the other one, and one 344 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: drives the one with the ammunition. So at best we 345 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: can say that one of those police knows where he 346 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: took the ammunition and the guns. We believe it to 347 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: be the beller at police station. If they diverted at 348 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: any stage along the way, we don't know, and it's 349 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: probably impossible to prove. What happens next is Sam takes 350 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: the bogus avo, this AVO that should never have been 351 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: written out. It's clearly obtained by someone who is ap 352 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: plausible liar, essentially in order to punish him for daring 353 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: not to pay her the commission she thought she was owed. 354 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: It's an abuse of process at the very least, and 355 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: it possibly involves Perge. Really if she's sworn falsely to this, 356 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: a magistrate finds within a matter of days or weeks 357 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: when it gets to court that the AVO is rubbish. 358 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: It's a piece of junk. It should never have been 359 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: drawn up, it shouldn't have been acted on, and essentially 360 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: metaphorically speaking, the magistrate tears it up, so Sam Mahfoud 361 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: is vindicated. It should never have been acted on. He's 362 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: happy that that's been torn up, but he's unhappy that 363 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: he's guns and his ammunition are. 364 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: Still with the police. Now. 365 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: As far as we know, the guns and ammunition did 366 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: not leave Ballarat and go to the Police Property Office 367 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: in Melbourne, in Collingwood. As far as we know, I've 368 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: been told that by a Ballarat police officer who should know, 369 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: and I would suggest there's no reason to obscure the truth. 370 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: I'd see no reason to do it. So, as far 371 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: as anyone knows, including Sam, his firearms and his ammunition 372 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: were deposited either all of them or most of them. 373 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: At ball At police station. 374 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: He was told that they were put in some sort 375 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: of storeroom thing where every time police at the station 376 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: wanted to get it, you know, reams of paper or spare, 377 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: uniforms of god knows what, that they were standing on 378 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: the guns and walking through. 379 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: Them and all the rest of it. 380 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: And he believes that to be true because when the 381 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: AVO is torn up and when Sam says, well, I've 382 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: got to get my property back now, and they call 383 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: him in and said, yep. He goes in there to 384 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: pick up the guns and they hand them over, and 385 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: he said, they're scratched. They've been on the floor, they're 386 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: all scratched, they're knocked about. 387 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: The sites have all. 388 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: Been kicked around so that they're crooked, they're no longer 389 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: sighted correctly. And not only that, and this made him 390 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: particularly agitated. He said, clearly some of them had been used, 391 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: and he knows this because he checked, being a very 392 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: careful shooter who does the right thing for safety. He 393 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: removed magazines from his rifles and he said, look at this. 394 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: One of the magazines had eight bullets in it. Someone 395 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: obviously had taken that rifle out shooting somewhere or give 396 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: it a few test shots or whatever, and used it. 397 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: And they'd left it with eight live rounds in the 398 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: magazine and a semi automatic rifle, which is a cardinal's 399 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: sin of gun handling. You just don't do that, and 400 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: if you were a private in the army, you would 401 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: get into a lot of trouble for doing that. It's 402 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: a punishable offense in the armed forces to do stuff 403 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: like that, and I think probably in the police force. 404 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: You know, if you return with your side arm and 405 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: you're handed around with bullets in the magazine and haven't 406 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: properly cleared it. I think that would be a breach 407 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: of regulations, and so it should be. But when Sam 408 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: gets his guns back, they've been used in a used 409 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: and one of them's been left loaded. He's deeply unhappy 410 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: about that. But he's more unhappy about this. The ammunition 411 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: they'd handed over. This included many thousands of rounds of 412 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: twenty two ammunition, between twenty and thirty thousand rounds. Twenty 413 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: two is the little bullets. You can buy them in 414 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: big blocks of five thousand rounds, and he said there 415 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: was between twenty and thirty thousand rounds. 416 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: He got some of that back. 417 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: Other bullets that had been taken, other cartridges that have 418 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: been taken were nine millimeter pistol ammunition. They took lots 419 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: of it from his place. None came back, not one round. 420 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: All these nine millimeter pistol ammunition had vanished. Other pistol 421 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: rounds had gone in the raid, the so called raid. 422 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: Three point fifty seven caliber pistol ammunition I think forty 423 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: five ACP. They call it forty five colt, which is 424 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: a heavy caliber round for handgun and thirty eight special 425 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: which used to be used. I think when police had 426 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: the thirty eight revolvers back in the day in Victoria, 427 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: they could use the thirty eight special ammunition. Interesting because 428 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: perhaps some police somewhere might have come across a thirty 429 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: eight revolver here and there and very interesting forty caliber 430 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: semi automatic pistol ammunition. Now forty caliber semi automatic pistl 431 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: ammunition fits the Victorian police issue side arm, that is 432 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: the Smith and Wesson. I think it's a six steen 433 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: shot semi automatic pistol. It's a very efficient, well thought 434 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: of side arm for military and. 435 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: Police use, etc. Etc. 436 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: And it takes the forty caliber round. And I am 437 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: told on good authority that that round is hard for 438 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: civilians to buy in Victoria. There's not a lot of 439 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: it about. The police obviously use that caliber for their 440 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: side arms. People in security industry and so forth, they 441 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: said it's not much fun having forty caliber pistols because 442 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: you can't get the amma for whatever reason. Now Sam 443 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: had some, He had forty caliber, but it didn't come 444 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: back either. So when he gets his ammunition back, he's 445 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: lost a fair bit of twenty two's. He's lost all 446 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: the nine milk, and he's lost significant amounts of all 447 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: these other pistol rounds. One of the things he did 448 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: get back, this is funny. One of the things he 449 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: did get back was all his own reloads. Now, Sam's 450 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: one of those shooting enthusiasts who to save money, and 451 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: because he's an enthusiast, he reloads his own ammunition. Is 452 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: it something that I know? When I was young on 453 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: a farm, relatives of mine would reload their own fox 454 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: loads to shoot foxes and so forth. It was a 455 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: way to save money. If around was worth a dollar 456 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: to buy, they could make it up with gunpowder and 457 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: a projectile for maybe a third of the cost or 458 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: something like that. So it's a cost saving measure. Sam 459 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: had lots and lots of reloads that he'd done himself. 460 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: Those are regarded by shooters as sort of perhaps inferior 461 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: to factory loads, or at least not as consistent as 462 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: factory loads. And the fact of the matter was that 463 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: Sam got back all his reloads, but he didn't get 464 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: back nearly all his factory loads, the nice, shiny, clean 465 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 1: factory bullets, most of them didn't come back. Sam says, 466 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: he claims that he's lost something like sixty thousand rounds 467 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: of ammunition. Now, whether it's forty eight or fifty three 468 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 1: or fifty nine or sixty five thousand doesn't matter. It 469 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: is a shed load. It is a ute. 470 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: Load of ammunition that he's lost. 471 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: And one of the points he makes about this, he's 472 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: a couple of good points here. One is this that 473 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: when he finds he brought all this stuff home, he 474 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: was assisted by a friendly Ballarat policeman. I think it 475 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: was probably the district firearms officer helped him move this 476 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: stuff back home because it's quite heavy and Sam's a 477 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: little old bloke, and so this kindly policeman who might 478 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: have felt a bit sorry for him, helped him unload, 479 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: then take it inside and lock it up. And Sam said, 480 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: look at that. There's the two safes where the ammunition 481 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: came out of. And the firearms officer said, oh yeah, 482 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: and Sam said they were both full. But now look 483 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: all the stuff that he got back fitted in less 484 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: than one safe. He could fit it all in one 485 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: safe and there was still some room. He lost about 486 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: two thirds by volume of his cartridges of his bullets, 487 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: and that is a big loss financially, It's interesting because 488 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: Sam wasn't selling bullets on the black market, and so 489 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: what it's worth on the black market doesn't matter the Sam. 490 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: What matters to Sam is that if he wants to 491 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: buy replacements, he's now got a gun by replacement ammunition 492 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: for top dollar rather than use the stuff he'd bought 493 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: cheaply in the past. But the black market price is 494 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: relevant here because if it is possible that any of 495 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: that ammunition leaked onto the street, leaked onto the black market, 496 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: it is worth a phenomenal amount and bullets that might 497 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: be worth in bulk forty thousand dollars. When it's sitting 498 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: in a license shooter's safe out on the streets of 499 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: the northern suburbs of Melbourne or the western suburbs of Sydney, 500 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,719 Speaker 1: or wherever else, there are people who want to buy it. 501 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: Some of those pistol rounds, particularly particularly nine milk, because 502 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: it can be used in many of the common semi 503 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: automatic pistols and can also be used in machine pistols 504 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and sub machine guns. It's a universal round, very common 505 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: and therefore greatly sought after by the bad guys who 506 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: have got nine millimeter weapons and that stuff could bring 507 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: whatever somebody wants to pay for it. 508 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: Because if you're a. 509 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: Drug baron or a tobacco war king making fifty grand 510 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: a week or one hundred grand a week, or God 511 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: only knows lots of money illicit money, you don't care 512 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: if a box of bullets cost you fifty bucks or 513 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: one hundred bucks or five hundred bucks. It doesn't matter 514 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: to you because you just want the bullets. Because you 515 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: don't actually need ten thousand bullets you're a crook. You 516 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: probably want fifty at best, because you want two magazines full, 517 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: and you might shoot a few off at a tree 518 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: somewhere to make sure you know what you're doing. And 519 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: otherwise you don't need big numbers. You just need some 520 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: bullets to do the dirty work that you're going to 521 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: do to stand over somebody by shooting at their house, 522 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: breaking their windows, shooting up their cars, or indeed to 523 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: use the illicit weapon as a weapon to injure or 524 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: kill somebody. You don't need big numbers of bullets to 525 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: do that. In so price is no object. And this 526 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: is one of the dark sides of this story. If 527 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: any of those bullets, any of this ammunition, found its 528 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: way on the street. It is going to go to 529 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: the very people that are the most dangerous people in 530 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: the community. That is, armed criminals, the sort of people 531 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: who are not only shooting each other, but may well 532 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: shoot innocent people by accident when they're trying to shoot 533 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: other crooks, or they might use it against police. They 534 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: might use it against police. So the culpability of any police, 535 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: and we're not saying this happened, but the culpability of 536 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: any police who leak seized ammunition back on the black 537 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: market is very high because it could be used against 538 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: themselves or against their own colleagues. And if I'm a 539 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: copper and mildurer and I've seized a moment, I've sold 540 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: it to some blog behind a pub somewhere and that 541 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: ends up in the streets of Northcote, it could get 542 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: one of my own police colleagues killed. That is very 543 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: bad news. And that is the suspicion here. The suspicion 544 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 1: is that some seized weapons in some cases not in 545 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: this case, and seized ammunition could find its way back 546 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: onto the black market. Now, Sam Mafud deeply unhappy. He 547 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: briefed a law firm in Melbourne. That law firms drawn 548 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: up legal documents in order to take the Victoria Police 549 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: in the state of Victoria to court over the missing ammunition. 550 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: And they're claiming you certain things. They want damages and 551 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: they want exemplary damages and the whole catastrophe. Now, it 552 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: would seem to me, as an amateur bush lawyer, that 553 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: they probably have a reasonably strong case despite the fact 554 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: that this has been reported to Iback, and Iback, in 555 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: its wisdom, handed it back to the police and said, well, 556 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 1: you investigate it yourself. And apparently it's been investigated internally. 557 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: And I think it was another neighboring police station, so 558 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: it's Ballarat, that's the one in the gun here, So 559 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: it's been another police station in the general area has 560 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: been asked to look at it. And you know, whether 561 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: that was Balan or Jealong or Sumbury or something, I'm 562 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: not sure. But the point is that police investigating police 563 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: is never a great look, even if it is kosher, 564 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: even if it is sincere, and even if they're trying, 565 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't look good. The net result of this does 566 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 1: not look good. It doesn't look good at all. It 567 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: looks as if it's been put in the not to 568 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: be solved basket. It's been put into that basket marked 569 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: nothing to see here, please move on, and that is 570 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: not a great thing. The official response to Sam's claims 571 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: is that there's nothing in them, that they've investigated and 572 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: found nothing wrong, and that basically they are denying that 573 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: it's true. Now Interestingly, no one in the police force 574 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: at any level is calling Sam Mafood a liar. No 575 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: one has come out and said he tells untruth, he's 576 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: telling porkies, he's just trying to leverage this against us. 577 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: No one has made that allegation about him. They don't 578 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: want to call him a liar. One of the problems 579 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: the police force has if this goes to court is 580 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: this that when they say we handed back all the 581 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 1: bullets that we took, all the ammunition we took Sam's lawyer, 582 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: is this going to say, how do you know you 583 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: refused to count it, you didn't count it, You don't 584 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: know how much ammunition you took, and you don't really 585 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: know how much you gave back. 586 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 587 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 588 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton for my columns, 589 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: features and more. Go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 590 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: forward slash, Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 591 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: to news podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 592 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 593 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 594 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: the description Can I Go