1 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm 2 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: James Kirby, the editor at the Australian. Folks. My guest 3 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: today is Anissa Cavallo and she has an exceptional story 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: as a property investor and I want you to hear 5 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: it and I think you'll find her very interesting as 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: a guest. She started in the funds management world at 7 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 1: Mercantile and Mutual. She worked for various operations. Q. I see, 8 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: you'd know some of them. But at a certain point 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: things changed and in some ways became very challenging for her, 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: and she was divorced at one stage and ended up 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: having to go back and live in her parents' house 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: with her own kids in tow At that point she 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: decided to get very serious about property investment and has 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: since then and has become quite no since then for 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: building a residential property empire of sorts. She has about 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: fifteen investment properties, she tells me at the moment, and 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a whole bunch of issues 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: relating to property and her particular perspective on it. And 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: mister Cavello, how are you welcome to the show. 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for having me, James, it's a pleasure 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: to be here. 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: I'm great to have you on. The first thing that 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 1: struck me, even in the course of introducing you there 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: was that you have now built up a considerable property 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: portfolio of about fifteen residential properties. That's a hell of 26 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: a lot of properties. That's a hell of a lot 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: of issues. Yes, and I imagine you have a considerable 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: spreadsheet telling you all the various situations and the various 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: incomings and outgoings with those. But one of the things 30 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: that comes up all the time, perhaps not inside property investment, 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: but in national debate, it's about people having multiple properties, 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: and should people have multiple properties? And is it in 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: some way a problem that people do. I don't know 34 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: where you come from that. Well, what I might ask 35 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: you is we often have people right into the show 36 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: when they're starting to build and they have this target 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: in my Is there a number that you think is 38 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: ideal in terms of investment property ownership. 39 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 2: I'm in pains whenever I'm interviewed or I have the 40 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: privilege of being able to talk to the media about 41 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: my journey, I'm at pains to tell people that I 42 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: don't think people should buy fifteen properties, because you're quite right, 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: fifteen properties fifteen headaches. 44 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: Right. 45 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 2: The only reason that I'm in that situation is because 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: it's actually my industry, and so it's a lot easier 47 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: for me to trade and move things around, and you'd 48 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 2: expect me to have a larger portfolio than other people 49 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: if this is indeed my expertise. Right. So is fifteen 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: property right for everybody? 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: Know? 52 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: Is one right for everybody? 53 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: Know? 54 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: I say to people, for me buying property, the benefit 55 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: of property, the really where you get the real goal 56 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: out of property is two things, and I disagree with 57 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: anybody that disagrees with me on this one. 58 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: Right. 59 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: It's leverage and capital growth. So it's where you can 60 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: take a little bit of money that you've saved, and 61 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 2: many of my clients take ten years to save fifty 62 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. If you put that in the stock market 63 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: in ten years, it's not going to be worth very much, James, right, 64 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: You take that fifty and you leverage it into five hundred, 65 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: and you may indeed have a million dollars in ten years. 66 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: So I'm at pains to explain to people that what's 67 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: important in property is the benefits of leverage, and that 68 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: couple with capital growth. Now, that doesn't mean you need 69 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: fifteen properties and fifteen headaches. It means that you need 70 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: to just buy one, two, three, really good quality properties 71 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: at the right price that you can afford, and hang 72 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 2: on to them for as long as you can. I'm Italian, 73 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: do the European thing. Never sell, hang onto them, let 74 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: the market do the work for you. 75 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: Yes, it gets tougher as read school what, I'm sure, 76 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: but just a couple of things there. So would you 77 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: think we would be better or worse off if people 78 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: didn't strive to have as many properties. We'd be better 79 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: off with less land lords and other words. 80 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: Yes, And this comes up all the time, and I 81 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: find it really interesting actually that even through my journey, 82 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: which was a tough one but very also very lucky, 83 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: and I realized that I'm privileged. I was able to 84 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: live with my parents, many people can't. I don't take 85 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: any of that for granted, But I'm always fascinated by 86 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: the people that are actually angry with me. You know, 87 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: I've had comments saying that I'm responsible for the shortage 88 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: of properties, But the reality is that we live in 89 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: a society where everybody will never be able to afford property, 90 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 2: and there are many other cultures first World countries where 91 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: properties are much more expensive. And as economies get more 92 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: developed and become more sophisticated and population skilled immigration grows, 93 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: that gap between affordability gets it gets greater and greater, 94 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: and so I think if it wasn't for people like 95 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: us that were purchasing properties to make it more affordable 96 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: for renters, we'd have even more homelessness. And you think 97 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: about what even the RBA is saying with interest rates 98 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: that the people that have and hardest hit with interest 99 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: rates is actually it's the renters. Because there aren't enough 100 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: people actually putting houses, buying investment properties for renters. We 101 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: need to actually get the private sector, I think to 102 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: solve the housing crisis, because we don't have enough money 103 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: in the government to solve it. I think it's this 104 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: utopian idea that everybody can afford a house is unrealistic. 105 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: We we live in a capitalist society, and so the more 106 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 2: people we can get purchasing properties and making them affordable 107 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: for people that aren't in a position to purchase and 108 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: maybe don't want to buy. I know lots of people 109 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: that don't want to be an owner of a property 110 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 2: I think is a good thing. It should be encouraged. 111 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: Is there any one outstanding issue or measure that could 112 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: be introduced that would acceleries that provision if you like 113 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: supply of rented property. 114 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: I think an obvious one is a stamp. Due to 115 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: interest rates, etc. I think the market will do the 116 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: work for us. I think that eventually. I think markets 117 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: go through cycles. As you and I have discussed before, 118 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: fundamentals in markets, and those fundamentals don't change. It's just 119 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: the market gets driven by sentiment until times are good 120 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: and then they remember the fundamentals. So no, I think 121 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: that I think making it easier for investors to produce 122 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: affordable properties would be helpful. And there's a myriad of 123 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: things that would need to change, certainly making it more 124 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: affordable to invest through stamp, duty, less taxes, etc. There 125 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 2: are a lot of tax incentives for investors still though, 126 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 2: and you know, I believe that as an investor, it 127 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: is still very affordable to own property even with additional 128 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: taxes in Victoria. But I think other things like really 129 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: getting more people into the construction workforce, because one of 130 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 2: the big issues at the moment is just is building 131 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: houses fast enough? So really scaling up construction workers could 132 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: be could make a huge difference as well. 133 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, you know one thing that I have to say, 134 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: and I like a property. I'm always been a property investor, 135 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: but I'm a diverse fied investor and I'm across all 136 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: markets and one thing that strikes me there And I'm 137 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: not saying you said this, but there was the sort 138 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: of implication that you mentioned, like a property pays off 139 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: and part of that big payoff is leverage. Right, sure, 140 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: but I mean you can leaver, that is, you can 141 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: take a loan on shares just as easily. In fact, 142 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: you can negatively gear shares just as easily, and they're 143 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: doing ten percent a year at the moment. So is 144 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: there some part of property that makes you more confident 145 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: that you personally feel more confident about property as an 146 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: asset to leverage than shares. 147 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: Yes, of course, because it's a real asset, right, It's tangible, 148 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: so it's easier to leverage, and you can't leverage to 149 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: the same extent and the cost of leverage is not 150 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: as much for property. 151 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: No, that's very true. Yeah, the banks won't go with you. 152 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 2: No, that's right. And if you leverage a lot into 153 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: shares it is excitingly expensive and you can get a 154 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: margin call, whereas with a property, as long as you 155 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: pay your loan back you never get a margin call. Right, 156 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: nobody says sorry, the property is now worth fifty percent less. 157 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: You lbr too high. You hours some money. So I 158 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: think that because it's a real ass ish, it's a 159 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: tangible asset, it's a lot easier to levery. Are there 160 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: other reasons? I think the scarcity issue. You know, we're 161 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: not making any more land we've got. I think one 162 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 2: of the things that you and I have discussed, or 163 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: a theme that comes up a lot, is are the 164 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: fundamentals getting greater? Are there more reasons to invest, particularly 165 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: in Australia, And as our population grows, as we encourage 166 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,599 Speaker 2: more skilled migration into Australia. I think that the fundamentals 167 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: do get more compelling in Australia for property. I think 168 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: that gap that is just going to get bigger and bigger. 169 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: What we might do is take a short break and 170 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: we'll be back in a moment and we'll have a 171 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: look at where anissa Is thinks in terms of both style, 172 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: structure and location of good property opportunities At the moment, 173 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: and she will also give give us her five minutes 174 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: worth on the terrors of investing in the state of 175 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: Victoria at the moment, with with its with its rush 176 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: of unexpected taxes, and it is a very live and 177 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: real issue for investors in that state. Okay, back in 178 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: the moment, Hello, welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. 179 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: I'm James Kirby. Well that are at The Australian talking 180 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: to Anissa Cavallo, property investor and property commentator. And Anissa 181 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: would I always ask someone new on the show to 182 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: do this because I think it's in terms of added value. 183 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: Every listener wants to know, is there in terms of 184 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: types of property that are good value out there at 185 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: the moment, without talking about locations, what is there a 186 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: type that you are particularly attracted to? Just now? 187 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: Okay, so when we look but when I personally look 188 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: for property, I look for when I go fundamental then 189 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: and there's two parts to that. One part is what 190 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 2: are the characteristics that are going to drive growth in 191 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: property and what are the characteristics that are going to 192 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: drive risk in property? 193 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: Right? 194 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: And I think particularly we talked about leverage, leveraging into 195 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: property where you're leveraging into any asset, you want to 196 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: reduce as much volatility and risk as possible, and so 197 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: those two things have to come together. In financial services, 198 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: we call it a risk adjusted return. 199 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: Right. 200 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: So what I'm looking for is I'm looking for understanding 201 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: where are those pockets that are going to potentially experience 202 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: the greatest capital growth. And I believe that when you're 203 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 2: in property, if you really want to make some money 204 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: in property, if you really want to change your wealth position, 205 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: it's capital growth. It'll do it. It's never yield. It 206 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: really is helpful to help you pay for the property 207 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: while it goes up in value. And that's about it, 208 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: because it's not really a yield play. So I'm looking 209 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: for capital growth and what is that? And there's two 210 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 2: things internationally that are very common in films. For a 211 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 2: country is that drive growth, right, the drive property price growth. 212 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 2: And one of those things is population growth. But it 213 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: has to be the right sort of population growth and 214 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: access to money. At the moment, we've got the right 215 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: sort of population growth. Skilled immigration. And I won't tell 216 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 2: you the stage because we won't give away our areas, 217 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: but fifty percent of skilled immigrants go to one particular 218 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: state in Australia. That's been a trend for a very 219 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: long time now. And skilled immigration leads to something called 220 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: family income growth. You've probably heard that term before, a 221 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: household income growth. So where you've got households becoming wealthier, 222 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: you generally have property price growth. Okay, So access to 223 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 2: money and is another one. Right, So a lot of 224 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: people say, we'll interest rates are so high, there's no 225 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,479 Speaker 2: access to money. But we've got massive participation in the workforce, 226 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: we've got some wages increasing for the first time in 227 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 2: a long time. When you compare it to other property 228 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: markets where interest rates have actually been a lot higher 229 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 2: and unemployment's been a lot higher, actually got pretty good 230 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: access to money. 231 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I'll just pick up on two things there. 232 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: Victoria is the skilled immigrant state, isn't it. I assume 233 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: that they all come to and so you get that 234 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: improved income here, but it's the weakest of the states. 235 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: Just now, the numbers in Victoria defy the logic you're applying, 236 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: but perhaps there's more to it. What's happening there. 237 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: So we've got these extra taxes that we're paying because 238 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: of how for many of us, a lot of the 239 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: community feels at the government. State government mismanaged COVID and 240 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: set us broke, and as a result, they're taxing in 241 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: different areas to try and make some back some of 242 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 2: that money. And I think a lot of it is 243 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: anger and sentiment. But when you do the numbers, and 244 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: I've done the numbers, the average cost to add investor 245 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 2: to the average investor, the average additional annual cost is 246 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 2: about one thousand dollars. Let's call it a thousand bucks, right, 247 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: So one thousand dollars a year, which is taxed deductible 248 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: not enough of a disincentive to continue affecting property markets 249 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: when you've got these other true, really fundamental like skilled migration, 250 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: population growth, the need for housing a shortage. We're building 251 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: fifty thousand houses less than we should be annually at 252 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 2: the moment in Victoria. So sentiment's actually a wonderful opportunity 253 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: for people to take advantage of a market that's potentially 254 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 2: well underpriced. 255 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So you see it as a moment in time 256 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: basically where people have perhaps overreacted to the surprising position 257 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: of taxes and perhaps the disposition of the particular state 258 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: government just now about property around property and basically they 259 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: seem to see it as something Yeah to trax, that's 260 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: sill the investment point of view. So just back on one. 261 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: Other things which didn't quite get was what type of 262 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: property then, irrespective of location. If I say to you, hey, 263 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: you're so experienced in property, you've bought fifteen properties yourself, 264 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: at least I want to buy one. What type of 265 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: property is dollar for a dollar the best value do 266 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 1: you think just now? 267 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: I would be houses, So I'm a very big one 268 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: for houses, and there's a lot of history. We're don't 269 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 2: to value air in Australia. We don't so in need Land, 270 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: which is where the scarcity is right, and I'd be 271 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 2: looking for growth suburbs where are these skilled migrants moving. 272 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: And that's also for affordability. If you've got five million 273 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: dollars to spend by all means buy in South Melbourne 274 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: Middle Park, et cetera. But the average investa hasn't got 275 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: that sort of amount of our average client doesn't have 276 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: that to spend. So there are many areas that are 277 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: just on the outskirts of in urban Melbourne that have 278 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 2: got incredible infrastructure growth, hospital growth, a lot of job growth. 279 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: Are the Maturance State government's actually been very good at 280 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: creating employment clusters instead of creating a commuter suburbs where 281 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: the suburb has to commute to go to it to 282 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 2: get to work. There's a lot of local employment, so 283 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: something like on average, seventy percent of the people that 284 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: work full time I'm in Melshiam City Council actually live locally. 285 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: They don't actually community and that's a great thing for 286 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: local economy. So i'd be looking for local employment. I'd 287 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: be looking for family income growth, skilled immigration, hospitals, education, 288 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: that infrastructure that brings a community together. 289 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: Really interesting answer. It strikes me you're a feeling you're 290 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: a very statistically driven investor. I won't say top down, 291 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: but more than most, you're very across the demographics that 292 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: you're investing in and the economics that you're investing in, 293 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: not just the particular property. That's really interesting and a 294 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: really interesting view. Okay, folks, now we have some really 295 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: good questions for Anissa, and we will be back in 296 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: one moment. Hello, and welcome back to the Australians Money Puzzle. 297 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: I'm James Kirby and I'm talking to Annisa Cavella of 298 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: Eida Eda Property. She's the founder of that group and 299 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: avery experienced investor, has some really good views, fresh views, 300 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: I think on property investing. Great to have around the show. Okay, 301 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: I have a few questions. You've seen them in advance. 302 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: Let's just have a spin through them. I'll see how 303 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: we go in this. I would be interested to hear 304 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: your answers, obviously on the property. Some are more property 305 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: centric than others. Lorraine, my husband and I are keen 306 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: to get on the property ladder here in Australia. Our 307 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: dilema is what do we do we have saved in 308 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: every if individual advice Lorraine. Okay, it's it's information only 309 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: to all the Lorraines out there, But in any event, 310 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: I think we could safely say she they have saved 311 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: a few hundred thousand dollars, but less than the price 312 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: of an average house. Let's put it that way. They 313 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: live in Sydney. They're debating between a house and an apartment, 314 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: and they're debating between Sydney and Brisbane, which seems to 315 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: me and if nothing else, they're wide open. They're wide 316 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: open to what sort of property they will buy, even 317 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: to the point of living in two different cities which 318 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: are not a lot of people are. What would your 319 00:16:58,720 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: broad observations be. 320 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: To the okay disclaimer right, not knowing everything about Lorraine. 321 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: And of course there's two. 322 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: Reasons to buy property. One is to make as much 323 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: money as you can out of it. One is to 324 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: enjoy the property. I always say to client, so decide 325 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: wire twenty when they do it. Okay, I'm going to 326 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: assume that what Loraine and her husband want to do 327 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: is make some money out of property. So I certainly 328 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: wouldn't be purchasing an apartment. I'd be looking to purchase land, 329 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: as much land as I can in a growth area, 330 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: because there's no point buying land in Timbuktu, where nobody 331 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: wants to live anyway, right, So buying in an area 332 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: which gives me access to as much land as I 333 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 2: can afford, in a growth area that has those attributes 334 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: we discussed before, family income growth, skilled immigration, lots of infrastructure, growth, 335 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 2: et cetera. I would also be I don't like timing 336 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 2: the market, James. I believe that we don't. We never 337 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 2: time it right. The economists get it wrong, per will 338 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: weed to get it right. But I do believe that 339 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: there are particular markets that are very sicklical and when 340 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 2: and unless you buy right at the right time, ten 341 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 2: years before you get your money back. So I would 342 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: be looking at markets with less volatility, markets that tend 343 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 2: to just have a little bit of volatility, but they're 344 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: always trending up woods so it doesn't matter if you're 345 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: by today. It might take you a year to get 346 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: your money back, but it certainly won't take you five years. 347 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: Right, So what would that elimoned? Then? 348 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 2: I don't want to pay markets, but I certainly wouldn't 349 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 2: be investing in Western Australia at the West Australia has 350 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 2: a history of very strong volatility, and it doesn't mean 351 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 2: that it doesn't have a bit more to go. But 352 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: will it come back? Historically yes it will. It's red 353 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 2: hot and very peaked to resources. Still it's a deeper 354 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: market than it used to be, but it is still 355 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: very peaked to resources. 356 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: Right. 357 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: Queensland is expensive. It's more expensive than Melbourne. It's never 358 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: been like that before. We've got a bigger market, we've 359 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: got a greater larger need for housing here where a 360 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 2: shortage of housing is great, and yet it is currently 361 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: more expensive. So I would be wondering whether it was 362 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: getting to the top of a cycle. I don't see 363 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: it as the same as certainly don't see the time 364 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: as a Western Australia. If you're a Mark Thomas certainly 365 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: wouldn't be investing there. You can afford New South Wales. 366 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: I think New South Wales has a much smoother ride, 367 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 2: a lot less volatility that I would be telling her 368 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: to consider Victoria, and I want to I want to 369 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: preface that with I don't just invest in Victoria. I 370 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: just think Victoria is really good timing at the moment. 371 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, in terms of the investment clock, that is worth knowing. 372 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: And I'm sure Lorraine is familiar that if she's listened 373 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: to recent shows. It is very much a consensus just 374 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: at this time that the Victoria market is is weaker 375 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: than it should be and has an element of catching 376 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: up to do. And if you believe in the reversion 377 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: to the mean, which again is another sort of economic 378 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: notion which I can I think that is probably backing 379 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: on there. It is worth more than it's showing at 380 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: the moment. Okay, two quick ones. One Imran, I've been 381 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: looking for a financial advisor. I'm wondering about their minimum 382 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: account size requirements. Look at Imran. The nature with financial 383 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: advisors is that there are some that have a minimum. 384 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: They want you to have whatever, a million, half a million. Generally, 385 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: what they want is to be able to justify their 386 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: time with you. Very roughly on average, they're charging four thousand, 387 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: three hundred a year. Now if you reverse that and say, 388 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: does it make sense for me to have to pay 389 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: this person four thousand and three hundred a year, then 390 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: that is that makes sense for you. Don't worry about 391 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: whether you make sense for the advisor. The only thing 392 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: I would say to you, which is tough, but it's true. 393 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: If you have nothing, If you have no money and 394 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: you don't look like you're going to make any an 395 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: advisor is not going to spend much time with you. You 396 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: may have a very valuable home, for instance, and you 397 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: might have a good depension arrangement or something, but that's 398 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: no good to an advisor. The advisors in the business 399 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: of making money for you, and they want it to 400 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: make sense for both of you that they share your time. 401 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: I might sound a bit severe on that one, but 402 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: I do no advice quite well, and I've been obviously 403 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 1: involved in it for a long time, and Lisa can 404 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: I ask you, actually, which just struck me. Do you 405 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: use any outside services in the way I've say, buyers, 406 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: advocates or whatever. Do you do it all yourself? 407 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: No, I do it all myself. But I've come from 408 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: financial services as well, so I'm a little bit different. 409 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: I'm a bit controversial with that whole thing. I think 410 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: it's a shame that commissions because one of the things 411 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: that we used to do with charged commissioners financial services, 412 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: and I think they threw the baby out with the 413 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: bath water a bit by no longer allowing a client 414 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 2: to have the supply and pay has meant that we're 415 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: quite underinsured and underrepresented. Now. I feel like there was 416 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: probably a better model so that people that don't have 417 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 2: five ten thousand dollars to spend on a financial planner 418 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: can still get really good advice and it's worth the 419 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: advisor's time. But I tend to agree with you that 420 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 2: if you don't have a lot what the financial planner 421 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: doesn't have a lot of incentive to work with you. 422 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: Un Fortunately, it's difficult, it really is. There's no such 423 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: thing as chief financial advice. That just isn't. I'd have 424 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: to tell either isn't. But read and listen to shows 425 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: like this and you will learn a lot. That's that 426 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: much we will try to bring through for you. Okay, Ben, 427 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: this was on lender's mortgage insurance. He says, surely if 428 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: there is not much risk and it's a free market price, 429 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: then the price of it should drop. What's to go? 430 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, Ben, but I don't see it dropping. 431 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: I don't see it dropping anytime soon. I know it's 432 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: a market, but I wouldn't be waiting for that one. 433 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: All right. Finally from Dean, Now this is a detailed question. Again, 434 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: we are not going to give advice and we're not 435 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: going to be too precise here, but generally, what Dean 436 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: is asking is he has a townhouse and the townhouse 437 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: is in wa and here's the thing. It's one of six. 438 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: The others are freestanding. He's got a joint wall. Is 439 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: your expert able to provide general advice on the pros 440 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: and concept converting right converting a townhouse from strata title 441 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: to a freehold title to realize potential capital growth? What 442 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: did you think of that issue? And this said, is 443 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: there anything you can add to it? 444 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 2: Well, I've got to say this is not my expertise, 445 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: and this is how I would think about it, that 446 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: there'll be additional costs by separating, because you'll all suddenly 447 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: be charged to lots of rates et cetera, et cetera. 448 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 2: So there are some benefits of keeping it together. I'm 449 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 2: not sure how much difference it will make in terms 450 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 2: of capital growth, and it depends on what he wants 451 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: to do with it in the future. If it's a 452 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: buy and hold, which is my advice with most properties, 453 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 2: I wouldn't bother paying the cost of it. If he's 454 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 2: wanting to sell one off, then absolutely, But to be honest, 455 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: I've got to admit this is not my area of expertise. 456 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 2: You needs to speak to a conveyancer and a lawyer 457 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 2: about the repercussion. 458 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, And just one last thing. It struck me 459 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: that in earlier the show you said you like houses, 460 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that wasn't a casual comment. Do you 461 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: mean to say more precisely that your efforts are largely 462 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: in the investment and management of standalone houses as we 463 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: know them, and that implies you, to some extent steer 464 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: away from town townhouses, units, apartments very much. 465 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: Sometimes for my detriment, I've just found in my history 466 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: that the performance has been very different. It's a lot 467 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 2: harder to you don't have as much flexibility with what 468 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: you can do with them. And I just haven't seen 469 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: the capital growth, certainly the EELD, but I just haven't 470 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: seen the capital growth in units and townhouses. 471 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: Very good, Thank you very much, and that was really interesting, 472 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: interesting story, interesting perspective. Thank you very much for coming 473 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: on the show, Thanks for having me terrific. Okay, folks, 474 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: some more questions would be very welcome on any issue 475 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: you like. The email is the money Puzzle at the 476 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au. Talk to you soon.