WEBVTT - #2085 You And Your Brain - Moheb Costandi 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.320 I'll get a team. It's a bloody you project, of 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:05.000 course it is. Moe is all the way from the 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:07.880 UK joining us in a moment, but I'll say hello 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:10.520 to the girl who's not that far away. She's in 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:13.200 Elwood or somewhere elston Wick. Is it elston Wick or 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:17.520 Elwood Elwood, Elwood just down the road? I should know. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.840 Tiffany and Cook is the life force, of course of 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.599 t YP when when you know she allows me to 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.800 be on the show. That is Hi, Tip, good morning Apps. 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:29.040 Are you all right? 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:30.520 I am, I'm very well. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:30.880 Thanks. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.640 Can I just point out to Moe, who's probably looking 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.360 at your right shoulder thinking, oh my god, that girl's 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:38.080 got leprosy. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.479 I don't notice until you I want. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.120 You to have a good look. Can I? 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:45.360 How is? 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:48.120 Firstly, before we get into the real conversation with the 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.279 actual grown up in the room, what is going on 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:54.080 with your right shoulder? Because from here it looks, well, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.840 it looks kind of like some disease that nobody wants. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.680 Can you share with us what has been going on? 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:05.480 I am using treatment on a basil cell superficial basil 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.440 cell carcininoma, so skin cancer, and the treatment is a 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.080 cream that sends a little message to your immune system 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.640 to say, hey, there's something going on here, can you 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.560 guys come and fix it. So I've been putting that 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.360 on for six weeks. It is quite sore and raw 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.360 now and I'm just waiting for my immune system to 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:25.039 do its job. 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:28.399 Did you go that option because you didn't want the 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.199 bloke or the blowcat to just slice into your deltoid 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.760 and you didn't want to lose any muscle. 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:39.080 So well, it was actually quite a large lesion which 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:43.280 was going to require a large incision and a flap. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:48.680 So he suggested that this route would mean that it 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.680 will either completely hopefully fingers crossed, get rid of the BCC, 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.080 or if worst case scenario, it'll be a lot smaller 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.520 and the incision will be a lot more manageable, which 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:00.520 he will not be touching. 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:01.520 By the way, I will be. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.400 Getting a much better surgeon to address that if that 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:05.080 is the case. 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.440 Well, as someone who's had about twenty bays will sell 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.920 Carsinomas cut off, but would advise you come over to 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:12.680 my joint later. 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:13.280 I'll do it. 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.280 I'm pretty handy. I mean I was not gonna ask. 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:21.640 I'm not fully qualified, but Moe probably is he could 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.480 talk me through it. I mean, we'll get some ice cubes, 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.320 we'll get something that's not very rusty and pretty sharp. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:30.160 I'll turn on a video for you. You'll be distracted. 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:33.960 Then, what's already going on on my shoulder? 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:35.360 Can it? No? 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.560 Mo? Were you thinking what the fuck have I agreed 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:39.520 to do? Are you thinking that right now? 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:44.560 Well? I've only agreed to a podcast so far. I 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:48.440 was just wondering, is this not because of this related 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.680 to having too many Christmas barbies on the beach or what. 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:58.560 It's related to being a very pale, freckly Tasmanian that's 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.200 seen a little bit too much of Tassy has quite 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.000 harsh son actually Tazzy Son compared to Melbourne Son is 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:05.960 very harsh. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:06.880 Yeah. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.560 Yeah, well and also a treatment. Sorry. I hope it 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:13.160 goes as well as it can me. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:18.600 Too, Yeah, all of us, all of us. Hey Moe officially, 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:20.600 welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.680 part of the You project. I did a little bit 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.919 of a I won't say deep dive because that would 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:27.639 take weeks on you and your books and your content 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.320 and your videos and your appearances on podcasts and your 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:35.760 significant research. But I did somewhere between deep and shallow 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.000 dive in the last twenty four hours, and I literally 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:41.160 could do I won't burden you with ten, but I 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.800 could literally do ten podcasts with you. So I'm very 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.000 excited to talk to you. Could you, rather than me 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.520 read a bio which nobody wants, could you just tell 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.440 my audience who you are, what you do, and whatever 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.320 it is you want them to know about you. 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.440 Well, first of all, thanks very much for inviting me 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:06.840 on your too kind really so, I actually left the 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:14.320 PhD in developmental neurobiology that was twenty five years ago 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.120 and without finishing it, and eventually started working as a 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:27.200 writer specializing in neuroscience. About it, really, Well. 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.080 You've done a bit more than that, don't be too humble, 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.160 but all right. So one of the things that this 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.720 is I've written a few books as well, and I 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.120 was looking at your book called Body Am I The 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.680 Science The New Science of Self Consciousness. Do you realize 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:43.120 that you wrote that ten years ago? 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:43.360 Now? 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.120 Does it feel like a decade. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.880 I was just thinking about this the other day, and yes, 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.880 it occurred to me that no, hold on, that was 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.080 the one before I wrote ten years ago, Body Am 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.240 I was published in twenty twenty two. But nevertheless I 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.080 quite remember but anything about it, So please don't ask 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.000 me any questions related to it. 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.520 No, I'm definitely going to so you know, Yeah, all right, 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.159 let me ask you this to start, So, I'm what 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:17.080 is Let's start with what is self consciousness? Then like, 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.560 what what to me? When we in general terms? And 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.360 then I'll shut up when we go, oh, I'm self conscious? 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.800 It kind of means I'm somewhat worried about what you 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.839 think of me, how you see me, what I look like, 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.120 all that kind of what seems to be insecurity and 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.239 fear based kind of stuff. 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:40.799 Yeah, well, self consciousness is really it's an aspect of consciousness, 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:46.599 of course, which which we we still can't define consciousness. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.560 We've been trying to define consciousness itself for a for 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:54.919 a very long time, and we still can't reach a 0:05:54.920 --> 0:06:00.479 consensus on exactly what consciousness is or or or how 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:08.760 it arises. But self consciousness is we could simply define 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:17.080 it as as awareness of one's self within one's environment. 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:24.200 That's that's a very basic definition of self consciousness. And 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:30.599 in my last book that you just mentioned, I argue 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:39.440 that bodily awareness is a critical component of self consciousness. 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:45.320 Then you mentioned but being self conscious and worrying about 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:52.320 about what other people might think of us and other 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:59.039 people other people's perceptions do play some role in our 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:04.600 awareness of our selves, but but not not a really 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.159 huge one. I would argue two. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.720 I mean, and I know there's no number, but you know, 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:16.840 generally speaking to what kind of extent do we identify 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:23.000 with or get our sense of self from our body? 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.240 Yeah, I think the role of the body in our 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:35.160 sense of self our self identity is really underappreciated. So 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:40.520 I think it plays It plays a huge role. The body, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.520 that is, plays a huge role in our in our 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:50.680 sense of self identity. You mentioned obesity, that's a that's 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:57.120 a great example. There are there are numerous other examples 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:03.360 of how our awareness all or perception of our bodies 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.640 is crucial to our sense of self identity. And I'd 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:18.440 say perception, because our awareness of our bodies is nothing 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:25.160 is little more than a perception. You perceive your body 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.440 through the senses in the same way that you perceive 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.040 my voice, the computer screen in front of you. In 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.600 some sense, the body is just another object that the 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:44.439 brain perceives through sensory signals. But it's a very special 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:49.200 object because the result of that perception is what you 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:57.160 call me or or I. So the body and the 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:04.000 body and the brain, they're both the object and the subject. 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:11.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. I feel like, you know, 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.880 we say, oh, you know, I'm much more than a body, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.400 like in a pop culture, I'm not a body. I 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.440 just live in a body. I'm much more than that, 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.880 you know. But at the same time, we so strongly 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:25.280 identify with that. And if you look at especially social media, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.520 you know, where so many people are looking for acceptance 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.800 and approval and validation and love and connection and perhaps 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:40.080 fame popularity through their appearance. You know, it's like they 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:45.080 I guess, people's identity and sense of self varies wildly 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:46.080 person to person. 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.720 Yeah yeah, I think, well, I know, there are a 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:56.040 lot of studies showing that social media can be very 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:06.360 detrimental to how the a person perceives them selves. I think, 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:11.120 you know, we think it's pretty clear now that no 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:16.600 one is who they really say they are on the Internet, 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.480 and of course, using social media, people put their best 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:27.000 image of themselves there. They use filters and manipulate the 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:33.160 photographs of themselves in various ways. Now that creates unrealistic 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:38.480 expectations I think in other users. But then you know, 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:44.120 mass media has been doing that for decades anyway. 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:50.840 Yeah, when you think about without trying to get too metacognitive, 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.760 but when you think about how you think right and 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.199 you think and you start to get curious around why 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.200 do I think this way? Where did this come from? 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.600 Why do I see the world this way? Why do 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.559 I think this about that religion, or this about that politician, 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:10.240 or this about this kind of nutritional paradigm. Don't eat this, 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.800 do eat that. If you eat this, you're a bad person. 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.040 If you eat that, you're a good person. If you 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.960 do these things, you're noble. If you don't do these, 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:19.840 you know, all that kind of stuff. So we grow 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.560 up in this echo chamber quite often, I've thought and 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:27.280 philosophy and ideology and depending on what context you grew 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.360 up in. But I grew up I basically was just 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.920 a version of my parents and my peers and the 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.280 religion that I grew up in, which was Catholicism, and 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.440 all of the ideas that I was exposed to. And 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:41.800 so you get to well, I got to a point 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.440 where I whatever, let's say I was thirteen fourteen, and 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.599 I saw the world through this particular lens, which was 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:52.600 an intersection of different beliefs and ideas and values. But 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.960 I didn't choose any of that. That was just a 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.839 byproduct of growing up where I like, I didn't choose 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.520 my beliefs. I didn't go, you know what, here's what 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.200 I believe about God. I just believed whatever. And I 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.560 never made a decision that I barracked for the team 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.640 I barracked for in the AFL. I just barracked for 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.800 them because Dad does. And I just eat the way 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.440 that I eat, because that's the way we've always eaten. 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:16.520 You know. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:21.239 So how much of who we are is really self generated? 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.800 And how much is just a byproduct of programming and 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:30.480 conditioning and proximity to everyone else's thoughts and philosophies and behaviors. 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.520 That's a great question. I'm not really sure I can 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:40.040 give you a satisfactory answer. Personally, I'll try. These days, 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.840 I try to avoid thinking at all costs. You know, 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:52.280 according to according to Taoism, thoughts weaken the mind. So 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.680 you know, it follows that the less the less one thinks, 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.760 the stronger their mind will be. And that's what that's 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:05.040 what I'm going for. But I think I think that 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:13.839 our environment, our culture, socialization early in life, of course, 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:21.400 they play huge roles in behaviors and thought processes and 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:27.959 beliefs and and values. But it's not it's not that 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:33.280 that doesn't mean that one can't realize that these are 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:41.640 behaviors and thoughts that that can change or can can 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:46.239 be changed. But I think I think that also requires 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:53.439 some degree of self for awareness and understanding of one's 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:59.640 self and to be able to question one's own deeply 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:06.880 hell beliefs. Yeah, yeah, one zone actions, it's I think 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.840 those are things that not enough people can actually manage 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:13.280 to do. 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.360 Yeah, I think it's really hard when you've believed something 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:22.040 for a long time and your identity is intertwined with 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.600 that belief, because when you question my belief, you question 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.000 my identity, and so fuck you, you know what I mean. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.440 It's like that that it was really hard for me 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:38.520 when I grew up in a particular religious model. Two 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.360 one to question anything, just for the reason that I 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.000 was indoctrinated. But two, whenever you do live in an 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:51.760 echo chamber, be it a theological, philosophical, nutritional, academic, whatever, 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:56.840 echo chamber, you are very strongly within the group, discouraged 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:03.680 from thinking anything different because you basically, you know, a backslider, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:08.160 you know, like, so it's this whole thing of we're 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.200 not taught what to or we're not taught how to think, 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.400 we're taught what or we're told what to think, and 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.840 so then you go and then when you do try 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.640 to think critically and independently, depending on you know, for me, 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:26.920 I was very much discouraged, if not criticized, you. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:32.960 Know, Yeah, that's very true. The church that I was 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:38.120 born into, the Coptic Church, that's the Egyptian Orthodox Church. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.000 There are a lot of Copts in Sydney, in Australia. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:48.040 Actually the largest Coptic community outside of Egypt is in Australia. Wow, 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.000 or at least it used to be. That may have changed, 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.920 but yeah, there are lots of us out there. The 0:15:53.960 --> 0:16:01.960 Coptic Church is very very strict and you're not supposed 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:06.360 to question anything. I mean, it's similar to Catholicism in 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:07.200 that respect. 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:11.320 I suppose, well, I guess, you know, how do you 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.080 control a group of people, you know, with fear, with threats, 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.960 with intimidate if you do this, if you question that 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.560 you're bad, You're a sinner, You're going to hell, you know, 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.080 pick your poison, Like, here are all of these things 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:24.880 that are going to happen to you if you don't 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.880 conform in a line and just believe. And by the way, 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:29.720 your job is not to think. Your job is just 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.080 to believe. I'm like, well, that's super fucking convenient, but 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.880 it doesn't really. How did that affect you then? Growing 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:41.960 up in cognitive kind of environment or a kind of 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.360 certain environment where you had to think and be and 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.720 behave a certain way. That was that hard for you 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.400 to step out of that and think independently. 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.640 Not really, you know, I had it. I had it 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.640 thrilled into me still do for my for my whole life. 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:07.680 That one parent is very say, fanatical, I suppose isn't 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:13.240 an exaggeration. The other was, let's say, open minded, So 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:18.680 there was there was room for me to to think independently. 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:24.919 As you say, So it didn't a massive effect on me. 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.960 I love having one. Having a parent that was so 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:37.520 we say, over zealous, just actually pushed me, pushed me 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.919 in the pushed me in the other direction. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.879 Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's I don't know 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.240 if this is true. I feel like that's more common 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.959 with boys than girls, is to push back against that 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.040 kind of stuff. But that's just my my perspective, all right. 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.680 I want to change track a little bit. So you're 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.840 your original or not your original, but one of your 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.000 your undergrad was in neuroscience, am I correct? 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:11.439 That's right? And the masters as well, and half a 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:17.320 PhD in developmental neurobiology. I feel you. 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.800 I've so many times, Nelly, Now go on, God, what 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.320 made you walk away halfway through your PhD? 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.399 I didn't have much choice. I actually got kicked off Craig. 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:30.480 What did you do? 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:31.600 Mo? 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:31.679 Mo? 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:32.840 What did you do? 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:40.200 Well? It was more what I didn't do was my experiments. 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:46.160 I lost motivation doing the same experiments over and over 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:52.959 again and not getting not getting results, and so it 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.240 was decided that I should leave the lab. That was 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.240 a long time ago now twenty five, twenty five years 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:03.879 ago in November, actually just gone. 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.440 So it didn't hurt, it didn't hurt your career. You've 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:08.080 done okay? 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:09.439 So do you? 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.399 How do you? I mean, I didn't intend to. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:14.080 Ask this question. 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:16.520 I don't think I've ever asked anyone this question, But 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.520 so you are an I mean you've got a master's degree, 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.280 let's call it half a PhD. So you're a I mean, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.359 you're much more than an academic. You're like, for me, 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.760 you're more of a pro academic than an academic because 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.800 you kind of teach high level science in a user friendly, 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:39.560 you know, public friendly, understandable, practical, operationalizable way. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:40.400 I'll take that. 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.199 Yeah, I think that's what you do. It's like I 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.439 try to be a bit of that as well. It's like, 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.639 I think, what's the point of having a podcast or 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:52.600 a public platform if you're talking about concepts and using 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.120 language that is not familiar to most people, then you're 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.239 just pumping up your own ties. But how do you 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:05.359 feel about, you know, academic learning versus you know, self 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:11.440 research or independent research and experiential learning and not necessarily 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.880 what's better, but like the intersection of that, like being 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.159 at university doing all of these degrees. You know, I 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.400 did my first degree a long time ago and I'm 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:23.359 just finishing my doctorate now at the ripe old age 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.919 of sixty two. And for me, it was kind of 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:28.960 a good I don't know, just a good fit because 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.280 I've had a lot of real world experience around all 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:31.560 of that. 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:36.480 What about for you? Well, when I look at how 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:41.359 academia has changed in the twenty five years since I 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:49.160 left the lab, I'm glad I'm not in. I'm glad 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:56.119 I'm not there anymore. I mean, academia has basically turned 0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:03.240 to shit in the twenty first century. There are a 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:10.680 lot of a lot of it is, you know, bureaucracy, funding, 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:17.960 funding cuts. There's no there's no room for what's called 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:24.840 blue sky research any anymore. Blue skies, blue blue blue 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.720 sky research. So an example of that is going back 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:36.320 to the nineteen sixties, Japanese researcher working at woods Hole 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.199 I think it's a lab in a labin on the 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.639 east coast of the United States somewhere and arbor, I think, 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:49.080 and he'd walk along the waterfront and he noticed these 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.560 jellyfish that fluoresce, They glow in the dark with this 0:21:54.720 --> 0:22:00.000 brilliant green color, and decided that he wants to understand 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.959 and how this happened. So he spent years collecting millions 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:11.560 of specimens of these jellyfish from the harbor and eventually 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:20.560 isolated the green fluorescent protein, which eventually revolutionized all of 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:29.080 biology and medicine. I mean, virtually every every molecular biology 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:35.399 lab in the world uses GFP as a tool to 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.600 do all sorts of different things. And he shared a 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.640 Nobel Prize for his discovery. But you know, he spent 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.920 he spent years and years. He was given funding to 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:51.840 just collect these jellyfish day in, day out, and just 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:59.280 spent years studying this organism and eventually isolated the protein 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.399 for the hell of it, right, And that's that's Blue 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.520 Sky's research. And there's very little room for that in 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:13.439 in in academia today. And there seem to be much 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:19.639 more or many more constraints on the kind of the 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:25.639 kind of research that that you can do in your 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:31.360 in your lab unless you're you know, a superstar scientist 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:36.200 who's you know, won no prize or or something like that. 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:42.600 You know, the most labs, I think there there's huge 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:49.600 competition for for for the funding, to the research funding 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.040 these days. So there are there are a lot of 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:58.520 a lot of constraints to being in in in academia. 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.720 I mean, I'm not you know, I'm not an expert 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.679 in how these things work, but you know, I have 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.960 friends that that have their own labs. Now, you know, 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:15.840 I follow lots of researchers or on media, not that 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.239 I use it that much any more, but there there 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:25.399 are lots of lots of problems with with the with 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:31.520 the academia. I mean, I don't really well, I don't 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:35.680 do any research myself. I just read a lot and 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.919 and and rite. But I still feel like, you know, 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:43.080 I trained as a scientist. I still feel that I'm 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:47.000 a that I'm a scientist, and I can still think 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:51.920 about scientific ideas. There there might be one or two 0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:58.240 original ideas in in my in my book about bodily awareness, 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:02.560 that that researchers can couldn't go out there and test 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:07.120 if they yeah want to. I don't know if that. 0:25:07.160 --> 0:25:09.760 You're still a researcher. You're still a researcher. You just 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:13.480 kind of research the research, you know. It's like one 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.119 of the things I did in mind my PhD was 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:19.119 a systematic literature review, and basically you're just looking at 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.240 everybody else's, you know, research around the thing that you're researching, 0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:26.639 and then you you know, my initial search for my 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.200 topic and my for all the studies I. 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:30.560 Was doing it. 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.440 It ended up being I think it was one one 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:37.080 hundred and twenty papers that that came in and I 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:40.320 had to go through and then I ended up focusing 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:44.240 on ninety three different papers, and some of those, some 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:47.920 of those individual research kind of papers had you know, five, six, 0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:50.560 seven studies in them, and then, you know, so you're 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.320 basically analyzing what everyone else is doing and trying to 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:55.639 find threads and trying to find you know, what is 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:59.280 what is helpful, what is not. So I think you, yeah, 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:01.760 you're not sitting in a lab and doing that ground 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:05.680 breaking necessarily new research, but you still and I think 0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:09.240 the beauty of it is like to have a really broad, 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:13.640 deep understanding you need to know what everyone or at 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:15.720 least a lot of people are doing. I think one 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:18.840 of the you know, obviously there are pros and cons 0:26:18.880 --> 0:26:21.480 for doing a master's or a PhD or whatever, but 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:25.320 I think one of the pros of not doing it 0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:28.280 is that you can research or at least explore whatever 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:31.359 you want however you want, on whatever timeline. You don't 0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:34.320 need fucking ethical approval, you don't need somebody to give 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:36.480 you money, you don't need somebody to tell you it's 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:38.719 all right. You know, it's like, no, I'm just going 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:41.159 to open the door on this and I'll see what 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:45.160 I find, you know, and then you know, my job, 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:47.720 as I said to you before we started, is corporate speaking. 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:50.720