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Speaker 1: The Australian Academy of Technological Science and Engineering have today

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Speaker 1: made a few comments regarding small modular nuclear reactors SMRs

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Speaker 1: as they're identified as around the world. They're a new

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Speaker 1: form of nuclear energy and largely still in prototype stage

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Speaker 1: being developed. The Academy, the Australian Academy of Technological Science

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Speaker 1: and Engineering saying be a bit risky for Australia to

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Speaker 1: take them on right at the moment. The best option

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Speaker 1: would be to wait maybe a decade or two and

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Speaker 1: see how they operate around the world, and then we

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Speaker 1: either jump in or we don't, depending on what technical

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Speaker 1: issues they may or may not have. From the Academy,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Catherine Woodthorpe is the president and joins me now. Catherine,

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Speaker 1: good morning, Thank you for coming on.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Matthew, good morning.

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Speaker 1: So small modular nuclear reactors a little way off, you reckon.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's actually a number of them in development, but

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Speaker 2: there are none that are commercially available, and there are

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Speaker 2: none that will be that have a date attached to

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Speaker 2: that availability. So it's quite a long way off yet

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Speaker 2: before we'll actually see them installed anywhere in the OECD.

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Speaker 1: What are we talking a decade more?

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Speaker 2: A decade to see them potentially installed in parts of

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Speaker 2: the OECD, depending on licensing issues and so forth, which

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Speaker 2: are still unknown. It's just too many unknowns to really

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Speaker 2: pin it down, but we can definitely say it won't

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Speaker 2: be in less than a decade.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So when we say small modular nuclear reactor, what's

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Speaker 1: the difference between that and conventional if you like power

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Speaker 1: plant whatever? That might be.

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Speaker 2: Two things. One is size and the other is sort

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Speaker 2: of bespokeness. So when we build nuclear plants around the

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Speaker 2: world today, they're one off, major infra structure constructions on

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Speaker 2: the spot to the needs of whatever's been specified. Whereas

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Speaker 2: the SMRs are supposed to be and as I say that,

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Speaker 2: there's none available yet, so this is kind of supposition still.

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Speaker 2: But they anticipate that they will be something that are

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Speaker 2: built in bits in a factory and assembled somewhere else,

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Speaker 2: so it'll be a different style of construction and they

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Speaker 2: will be that much smaller.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what can it power? Then? What does a

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Speaker 1: small modular nuclear react to? Ment to power it a town,

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Speaker 1: a suburb, a city, of building.

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Speaker 2: They're more likely to be used for industry in particular,

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Speaker 2: So for example, they've been considered for a future in

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Speaker 2: large industrial complexes where they'll provide not only electricity but heat,

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Speaker 2: and the process heat they provide is probably one of

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Speaker 2: the most things that they are likely to provide in

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Speaker 2: the future. But as I keep saying, we don't actually

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Speaker 2: know because none of them are in production yet. But

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Speaker 2: one day we'll get to know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yet we can power a submarine, for instance,

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Speaker 1: with a small nuclear I'll call it a device, an engine,

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Speaker 1: call it what you will, but it can do that.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that a modular reactor.

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Speaker 2: In a sense, it is, but they've never been used

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Speaker 2: in a civilian and be on land around the general public.

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Speaker 2: So again, it's something that potentially people could look at

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Speaker 2: developing into the sort of thing that we could use

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Speaker 2: for powering industry. But there is nobody in the world

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Speaker 2: that's doing that at the moment, and it's up to

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Speaker 2: the companies that make these things to do that development.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt about that. But it seems to be

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Speaker 1: a no brainer. If you can use it to power

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Speaker 1: up a sub you can use it to power up

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Speaker 1: a factory. Surely, just the same thing. It just doesn't

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Speaker 1: go on something floating or moving through the water.

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Speaker 2: Again, potentially. I don't know what the differences would be

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Speaker 2: in terms of things like cooling, in terms of the

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Speaker 2: waste management and so forth. There are so many issues

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Speaker 2: around trying to transform a bit of technology that's really

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Speaker 2: custom built or purpose built to drive submarines in that case,

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Speaker 2: to turning it into something completely different to power a factory.

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Speaker 2: So there would be an enormous number of steps to

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Speaker 2: do that as well, and often as not, the sort

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Speaker 2: of technologies you find in major pieces of defense equipment

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Speaker 2: actually have a whole load of intellectual property caveats around them,

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Speaker 2: and it would probably be very unlikely that those would

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Speaker 2: ever be released enough to make it a civilian product.

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Speaker 1: We've had to call off there. While we've been chatting Catherine.

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Speaker 1: Somebody wanting to know a nuclear power plant. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if there's any stats on this at all, but

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Speaker 1: how many wind turbines would it replace or what's at worth?

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Speaker 1: It will depend on its size and capabilities, But any

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Speaker 1: idea on any of that A comparison type thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm sorry, I couldn't wonder how long is

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Speaker 2: a piece of strength. These actual reactors range in size enormously,

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Speaker 2: and so the wind turbines so you know, the wind

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Speaker 2: turbines today are so much larger than those that we've

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Speaker 2: been used to from a decade ago. They're just absolutely

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Speaker 2: massive and absolutely driving huge amounts of electricity, and they're

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Speaker 2: what we need to get into the grid. This whole

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Speaker 2: discussion around SMRs, for me, the solution we need today.

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Speaker 2: We need a solution today to face the problem that

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Speaker 2: we have today, which is to decarbonize our grid. And

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Speaker 2: to do that, we have technologies that are available. We

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Speaker 2: know how to firm them up to make them dispatchable

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Speaker 2: and reliable, So we should just be getting on with that.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise the longer we leave it, the sharper the transition

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Speaker 2: will have to be. The earlier we do the transition,

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Speaker 2: and we're well underway already. But the sooner we carry

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Speaker 2: on with that and upgrade that and augment that, the

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Speaker 2: longer we can take over the transition. But the longer

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Speaker 2: we leave it to start, then we just have to

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Speaker 2: do it all in a horrible hurry. So we're doing

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Speaker 2: the right thing. We need to do a bit more

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Speaker 2: of it. But the solution for the problem we face

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Speaker 2: today is to get more renewables into the.

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Speaker 1: Green Why is it renewables and not nuclear. I mean

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Speaker 1: put aside SMRs, why not build conventional as I think

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Speaker 1: the opposition wants to do. In fact, just before you

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Speaker 1: came on here in s eighteen past ten at the moment,

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Speaker 1: and our ten o'clock news had this from Matt Canavan,

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Speaker 1: a National Senator speaking on today Today. I'll just play this.

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Speaker 1: That's not our plan. Our plan is not to rely

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Speaker 1: on small moder reactors. We can build a pressurized water

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Speaker 1: reactor just like exists in France, just like our being

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Speaker 1: built in over twenty countries in the world. We could

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Speaker 1: do that today. So why don't we do that today?

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Speaker 1: Why renewables? Why not a nuclear power plant or seven

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Speaker 1: of them? Is the opposition suggesting.

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Speaker 2: It's this sense of what is today. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: I've been to Hinkley in the UK. They're currently building

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Speaker 2: a power plant, to major nuclear power plant. They have

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Speaker 2: many in the UK. They're very experienced at it. Mister

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Speaker 2: Canavan mentioned France, but you know France, the UK, Germany,

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Speaker 2: the US, they've been doing this for a long time.

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Speaker 2: So Hinkley is so far taken something of the order

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Speaker 2: of about fifteen years, and it's not anticipated that it

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Speaker 2: will be actually online until twenty thirty, probably twenty thirty one.

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Speaker 2: In reality, it will have taken twenty to twenty one

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Speaker 2: years to build, and that's in a country that knows

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Speaker 2: how to do this. In addition, it's cost two point

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Speaker 2: eight times what the original budget was, So when he

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Speaker 2: says today today actually means in twenty five years time,

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Speaker 2: and we can't wait that long. I don't have any

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Speaker 2: issue with the technology and nuclear reactors. It's just that

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Speaker 2: that's not the solution for the problem we face today

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Speaker 2: because time is of the essence to solve the carbon

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Speaker 2: problem in our atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: All right, So it's all about time, not so much

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Speaker 1: that the technology. And you're right, I mean, we have

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Speaker 1: embarked down the renewable path, particularly here in South Australia.

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Speaker 2: South Australia has been a great leader, so keep going.

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Speaker 2: And it's dollars as well. You know, the gen cost

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Speaker 2: that CSIRO did show that the cost of nuclear the

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Speaker 2: Hinkley B Hinkley c rather, which is now as I've said,

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Speaker 2: two point eight times more expensive in today's dollars, will

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Speaker 2: have cost them ninety eight billion Australian dollars. The private

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Speaker 2: marketplace will not invest in that. They don't look for

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Speaker 2: eighty year returns, so it would be the government having

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Speaker 2: to find ninety odd billion dollars to build a nuclear

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Speaker 2: reactor in today's dollars.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know what our power line owner here in

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Speaker 1: South Australia, Singapore and Hong Kong Company rather has a

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Speaker 1: ninety nine investments, so I do think they look further ahead.

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Speaker 1: You know, they bought our poles and wires back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand for how of many billion, four or five

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Speaker 1: billion dollars and that's a ninety nine year deal, so

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Speaker 1: they're happy to wait and then get the profits over

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Speaker 1: that period.

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Speaker 2: The Finland chappointment, none of them is there nested in

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Speaker 2: nuclear power.

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Speaker 1: The Finland experience is interesting where similar to Hinckley, it's

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Speaker 1: come in over time and over budget, no doubt about that,

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Speaker 1: but it has overnight havel their energy bills because suddenly

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Speaker 1: they've got reliable, full on base load power and that's

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Speaker 1: what we're all looking for. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One thing that Finland's done very differently is the way

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Speaker 2: they've gone about their social license. So they have worked

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Speaker 2: with their communities from the beginning in order to get

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Speaker 2: the social license to build those nuclear power plants. And

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Speaker 2: also remember that Europe is very used to this. We

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Speaker 2: currently have laws both at the federal and state level,

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Speaker 2: certainly in the East Coast States, the precluders from doing it.

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Speaker 2: So the first thing we have to do is overturn

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Speaker 2: that federal law, which means that we need probably a

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Speaker 2: government that has the majority in both houses of our parliament.

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Speaker 2: We haven't yet found where we can put our low

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Speaker 2: to medium grade medical waste producing medical radio pharmaceuticals for example.

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Speaker 2: We haven't even got somewhere to put those yet. We've

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Speaker 2: not yet dealt with the orchis waste that we'll be coming.

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Speaker 2: So the social license issues are still absolutely monumental for Australia.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have found a place, it was Kimber, but

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Speaker 1: then of course court challenges overturn that, so that's the issue.

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Speaker 1: So we still haven't. You're right at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day. But anyway, all right, at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, we haven't. Yeah, yeah, okay, thank you for

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Speaker 1: your time this morning. Catherine appreciates that you're talking to you,

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Speaker 1: matth You thank you. Doctor Catherine Woodthorpe, who is President

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Speaker 1: Australian Academy of Technological Science, that says no issue. She

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Speaker 1: says with the argument about nuclear just the time got

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Speaker 1: to get on with it and were well advanced with renewables,

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Speaker 1: which is certainly true, but baseload. Baseload is what we want.