WEBVTT - Conspiracy Nation part 1: The COVID conspiracy pipeline

0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.000
<v Speaker 1>I think if you cast your mind back and you

0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.840
<v Speaker 1>think about what it was like at the start of

0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:09.280
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic, this is this time where the whole world changed.

0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:11.879
<v Speaker 2>Good evening, and thanks for joining us.

0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.720
<v Speaker 3>The World Health Organization has now confirmed what many epidemiologists

0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.200
<v Speaker 3>have been saying for weeks. The coronavirus is a pandemic.

0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:24.040
<v Speaker 1>There was a time of great uncertainty of like little information,

0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.560
<v Speaker 1>and what information we had, there was not a lot

0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.920
<v Speaker 1>of confidence in it, and so when people decided to

0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:37.640
<v Speaker 1>grasp for understanding of it, we found that some people

0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:43.760
<v Speaker 1>went towards these fringe, extreme ideas of COVID conspiracies and

0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:48.319
<v Speaker 1>conspiratorial thinking that gave them a kind of certainty and

0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.800
<v Speaker 1>a simple understanding of the world at a time that

0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:52.839
<v Speaker 1>really defied that.

0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.920
<v Speaker 2>A quarter of the world's population is now living under

0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.080
<v Speaker 2>some form of lockdown due to coronavirus. Than three billion

0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.759
<v Speaker 2>people in almost seventy countries and territories have been asked

0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>to stay at home.

0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:18.959
<v Speaker 4>We saw the protests in the streets, We saw narratives

0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.360
<v Speaker 4>about a week control and secret, shadowy plots.

0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.240
<v Speaker 1>But it's actually not a very weird thing. It's a

0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.080
<v Speaker 1>very human and relatable thing. Which is they wanted to

0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.560
<v Speaker 1>make sense of the stuff that was happening to them.

0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.399
<v Speaker 5>During the COVID nineteen pandemic, we saw protesters take to

0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.720
<v Speaker 5>the streets. They weren't just protesting lockdowns. They were rallying

0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.959
<v Speaker 5>around a tangle of fears and conspiracies. Those threads fused

0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.280
<v Speaker 5>into a broader worldview that pulled people down a pipeline

0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:55.240
<v Speaker 5>and built a small industry of influencers. I'm Ruby Jones and.

0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.680
<v Speaker 3>You're listening to seven AM today Conspiracy Nation authors Arial

0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.920
<v Speaker 3>Bog and Cam Wilson on the conspiracy pipeline, how it works,

0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:05.680
<v Speaker 3>who benefits, and where it's heading.

0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Now.

0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.160
<v Speaker 5>It's Thursday, August fourteen, and this is part one of

0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:19.320
<v Speaker 5>a two part episode. Ariel and Cam, thank you so

0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:20.960
<v Speaker 5>much for joining me on seven AM.

0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:21.800
<v Speaker 6>Thanks for having us.

0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Great to be here.

0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.160
<v Speaker 5>I want to talk about the protests movements that emerged

0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.720
<v Speaker 5>from the COVID lockdowns in Australia, and in particular, there

0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.919
<v Speaker 5>is one rally that you went to and witnessed, Ariel,

0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.800
<v Speaker 5>which was the May twenty twenty three Rally for Freedom.

0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:38.079
<v Speaker 5>Tell me about it.

0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.280
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I went to this one and it was started

0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.079
<v Speaker 6>at Sydney Town Hall, there's always protests there if you've

0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.480
<v Speaker 6>been to Sydney, you know, for all different kinds of causes.

0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.160
<v Speaker 6>But what was really distinct to me about this one

0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.800
<v Speaker 6>was the cacophony of issues that were on display. Twenty

0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.120
<v Speaker 6>twenty three, you know, a lot of those restrictions had

0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:56.720
<v Speaker 6>been lifted. We were coming out of that period of

0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.600
<v Speaker 6>staying at home, but yet these marches were and of

0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:12.520
<v Speaker 6>pretty decent sizes what they call so as I turned

0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.400
<v Speaker 6>up and like turned onto George Street, I could see

0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:21.040
<v Speaker 6>posters about vaccines. I could see posters about fifteen minute cities,

0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.840
<v Speaker 6>which is a kind of conspiratorial understanding of a town

0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.960
<v Speaker 6>planning idea that claims it's a way to lock us

0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.399
<v Speaker 6>down and put us under government control instead of being

0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.480
<v Speaker 6>about walkable cities. I could see t shirts with the

0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.000
<v Speaker 6>line exposed the twenty eight on it that refers to

0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.920
<v Speaker 6>a conspiracy theory that spread widely in Australia about a

0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.680
<v Speaker 6>list of twenty eight elite pedophiles, including a prime minister.

0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.200
<v Speaker 6>I saw things about the Russia Ukraine War. You know,

0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.360
<v Speaker 6>it really showed to me how so many of these

0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.160
<v Speaker 6>ideas had kind of merged and were able to share

0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.120
<v Speaker 6>space even if people didn't show up for the exact

0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.280
<v Speaker 6>same reason. They shared a common sentiment, and the idea

0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.840
<v Speaker 6>was that there was something really wrong in the world.

0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:03.920
<v Speaker 6>And you know, that's not a unique feeling. A lot

0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.560
<v Speaker 6>of us feel like that. But they had decided the

0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.840
<v Speaker 6>blame was on a sort of shadowy force that was

0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.640
<v Speaker 6>out there trying to put us under the thumb to

0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:14.600
<v Speaker 6>control our lives against the common good.

0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.280
<v Speaker 5>Can we talk a little bit more about that kind

0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.479
<v Speaker 5>of cacophony of issues that you mentioned so far, g vaccines,

0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:26.920
<v Speaker 5>child abuse, rings, How these ideas that do seem disconnected

0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:31.080
<v Speaker 5>and random, how they come together into this kind of

0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.160
<v Speaker 5>overarching belief system.

0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.520
<v Speaker 1>Many of the people there believe completely different things, and

0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.880
<v Speaker 1>it's almost bizarre to see the different kinds of people

0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:45.080
<v Speaker 1>and their array of grievances that sometimes, if you think

0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:46.960
<v Speaker 1>about it, actually all couldn't be true at the same time,

0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.480
<v Speaker 1>like it actually wouldn't make sense. And yet that's not

0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.320
<v Speaker 1>a problem for these movements. Like you might believe that

0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.880
<v Speaker 1>nine to eleven was done by Massad, or you might

0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.080
<v Speaker 1>believe it was done by another group of people, but actually,

0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, you can kind of be and up because

0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.080
<v Speaker 1>what you agree on is this idea that you're not

0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.760
<v Speaker 1>getting the whole truth, that there are these bad forces,

0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.320
<v Speaker 1>and that you're on the right side of history. People

0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.120
<v Speaker 1>have all kinds of reasons ultimately that they get into

0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.479
<v Speaker 1>these groups and start to espouse these beliefs. But we

0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.880
<v Speaker 1>understand that these are all kind of influenced by these

0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.920
<v Speaker 1>broader societal factors, like, for example, the Internet has been

0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.719
<v Speaker 1>such a big force in bringing these people with disparate

0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.200
<v Speaker 1>views together, So ultimately you end up with this really

0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.960
<v Speaker 1>like connected group of people united by the same kind

0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:33.440
<v Speaker 1>of energy.

0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.560
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and on the one hand, it's obviously a pretty

0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.520
<v Speaker 5>bleak way of looking at the world, but just having

0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:47.360
<v Speaker 5>access to that belief system provide comfort to people who

0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:47.920
<v Speaker 5>believe in it.

0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.880
<v Speaker 6>I think it can certainly like it is a way

0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.719
<v Speaker 6>to put a kind of simple US verse them, enemies

0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.440
<v Speaker 6>versus good guys narrative around really complex events the COVID

0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.320
<v Speaker 6>nineteen pandemic. As can was saying, you know, this evolving

0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.400
<v Speaker 6>situation where the science was not one hundred percent firm.

0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.880
<v Speaker 6>We're gaining understanding every day, but I think it's important

0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.240
<v Speaker 6>to say here, like there are real conspiracies. You know,

0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.000
<v Speaker 6>if you just take any kind of look at Australian politics.

0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:15.880
<v Speaker 6>You see the revolving door of lobbyists. You see how

0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:21.120
<v Speaker 6>power and money operates. So we're not denying that at all.

0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.200
<v Speaker 6>What we're talking about here is a kind of dedication

0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.599
<v Speaker 6>to us verse them narrative despite all available evidence and

0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:32.680
<v Speaker 6>an unwillingness to accept, you know, counter claims. And there's

0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.400
<v Speaker 6>some really interesting sort of work on this. There's an

0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.719
<v Speaker 6>academic in the United States, Joseph Kushinsky, who's framed this

0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.600
<v Speaker 6>is an understanding of power. He argues that conspiracy theories

0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.760
<v Speaker 6>are a way to comprehend power, our institutions, the global

0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.160
<v Speaker 6>sort of community of nations, a very complex ecosystem. Some

0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.120
<v Speaker 6>of us might turn to these narratives as a way

0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.360
<v Speaker 6>to kind of understand what is happening in the.

0:06:54.279 --> 0:07:00.800
<v Speaker 5>World coming up, how online communities replace real ones and

0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:14.640
<v Speaker 5>the people left behind. You've been speaking to people who

0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.080
<v Speaker 5>have family members, partners, loved ones who have gone down

0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:24.040
<v Speaker 5>various conspiracy rabbit holes. Can you tell me about Danielle

0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:24.840
<v Speaker 5>and Emily.

0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:31.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I spoke to Danielle, who I found through a subreddit,

0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.559
<v Speaker 1>an online community space dedicated to people who had lost

0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:40.320
<v Speaker 1>loved ones to conspiracy theories and She was someone who

0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.679
<v Speaker 1>had been in a long term relationship with another woman, Emily,

0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.160
<v Speaker 1>that'd been together for I believe more than a decade

0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.760
<v Speaker 1>before the pandemic. Emily was already quite a nervous, anxious person.

0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.520
<v Speaker 1>She had early life trauma that had predisposed her to

0:07:55.640 --> 0:08:00.440
<v Speaker 1>being that kind of way, but when COVID happened just

0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:05.560
<v Speaker 1>supercharged it, and so it drastically changed her behavior over

0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.920
<v Speaker 1>just a few months. You know, she started worrying about

0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:15.400
<v Speaker 1>vaccine genocides. She started begging her partner to start storing

0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.480
<v Speaker 1>stuff in the house and preparing for a doomsday. They

0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.040
<v Speaker 1>got chickens as a way of kind of future proofing

0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.720
<v Speaker 1>themselves against anything that would happen to food supplies. And

0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.680
<v Speaker 1>while she did have some kind of work that did

0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.760
<v Speaker 1>keep her someone to touch the outside world, it really

0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.720
<v Speaker 1>didn't do much to shake this group on her. She

0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.120
<v Speaker 1>would spend hours and hours every day just ingesting enormous

0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.440
<v Speaker 1>amounts of conspiracy content through social media that was, on

0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.080
<v Speaker 1>one hand, you know, kind of like giving her the answer,

0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:45.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, it was telling her what was going on,

0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.000
<v Speaker 1>explaining it, But the other hand was completely freaking around.

0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.280
<v Speaker 1>It was telling her everything was going wrong, that everyone

0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:52.480
<v Speaker 1>she knew was under thread that was going to die.

0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.400
<v Speaker 1>And then as time went on, this really had an

0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:01.120
<v Speaker 1>enormous strain in their relationship. There's this heartbreaking moment that

0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Danielle told me where she was, like it was her

0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:09.559
<v Speaker 1>fiftieth birthday around then, and they decided to travel across Australia.

0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Danielle would remember they would stop in the middle of

0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.920
<v Speaker 1>nowhere and Emily would like jump on top of the

0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.560
<v Speaker 1>car or go find hills and trees to get on

0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.640
<v Speaker 1>top of to try and find just some internet connection

0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.720
<v Speaker 1>so that she could stay attached to the latest theories

0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.920
<v Speaker 1>coming from these conspiracy theory influencers who she was connected to.

0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:32.800
<v Speaker 1>Emily even started to share these transphobic and homophobic views

0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:37.480
<v Speaker 1>despite herself being in a gay relationship. Ultimately, this change

0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.960
<v Speaker 1>and her loved one took such a toll Danielle couldn't

0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.160
<v Speaker 1>handle it anymore. You know. They tried together, they went

0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.400
<v Speaker 1>to therapy, but the long term relationship broke down as

0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:46.080
<v Speaker 1>a result of it.

0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.600
<v Speaker 5>And so it sounds like Emily was consuming content twenty

0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.280
<v Speaker 5>four to seven. So can we talk about what it

0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.280
<v Speaker 5>was that she was watching and listening to and the

0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:01.040
<v Speaker 5>people who were actually producing that content and was motivating them.

0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so like many of them, she was in a

0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.560
<v Speaker 1>whole bunch of different online communities. Some are just like

0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, other people with similar beliefs, and some are

0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.920
<v Speaker 1>more led by figures at the top who are kind

0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.520
<v Speaker 1>of more dedicated to this and published content on it.

0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.720
<v Speaker 7>Evening Australia, Riccardo Bozi, National Leader of Australia one, well,

0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.880
<v Speaker 7>it's been a busy couple of weeks and where and

0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.400
<v Speaker 7>the warf of the world continues.

0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:27.960
<v Speaker 1>You know. One example is a guy called Ricardo Bozi,

0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:32.680
<v Speaker 1>who is a SAS guy who at one point during

0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.560
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic said that all doctors and nurses should be hung.

0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.200
<v Speaker 7>The loads of individuals that run this country for the

0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.360
<v Speaker 7>time being an offer months longer have persuaded too many

0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.920
<v Speaker 7>of us that we have to kill our kids.

0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.680
<v Speaker 1>And he was one of those people that Emily was

0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.400
<v Speaker 1>really locked into.

0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.040
<v Speaker 7>So if the wars are coming, it's because the globalists

0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.640
<v Speaker 7>want the war. They wanted a trigger the world control

0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.160
<v Speaker 7>and they tried global cooling in the seventies, then they

0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.840
<v Speaker 7>tried global warming, They tried all sorts of nonsense and

0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.560
<v Speaker 7>they finally got the pandemicandemic.

0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:05.880
<v Speaker 1>And so you had, you know, at the same time

0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.360
<v Speaker 1>as Danielle was, you know, waiting for updates on COVID

0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.000
<v Speaker 1>numbers like all of us, Emily was simultaneously in on

0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:17.080
<v Speaker 1>platforms like telegram and other fringe spaces where they were

0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.400
<v Speaker 1>getting this completely alternate reality that was helping transform her

0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.280
<v Speaker 1>into someone that daniel didn't recognize.

0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.319
<v Speaker 5>And so how cynical are you now about these influences.

0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.560
<v Speaker 5>Do you think that they all believe what they're saying

0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.480
<v Speaker 5>or is there a kind of cohort who manipulating people

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:36.960
<v Speaker 5>for profit.

0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.839
<v Speaker 1>It's really hard to know exactly what people believe. Sometimes

0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.120
<v Speaker 1>you have suspicions, but ultimately we can see that there

0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.160
<v Speaker 1>are incentive structures that make it possible for these figures

0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.240
<v Speaker 1>with influence to keep doing it. You know, they make

0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.560
<v Speaker 1>money off it, or at the very least they get attention.

0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.920
<v Speaker 1>You know, they promote these ideas. They tell you to

0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.439
<v Speaker 1>be fearful of everyone and everything, and the only person

0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.280
<v Speaker 1>you should trust is them, and very often they directly

0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.040
<v Speaker 1>even cash in on that by selling things, whether it's

0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.400
<v Speaker 1>courses or supplements or something like that. So we try

0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.679
<v Speaker 1>to be quite empathetic towards people who believe conspiracy theories

0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.400
<v Speaker 1>because we actually think it's a very human and understandable

0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.679
<v Speaker 1>thing to search for answers, even if they're not things

0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.080
<v Speaker 1>that most of us would agree with. But the people

0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:24.280
<v Speaker 1>who are responsible for encouraging people's beliefs, feeding those, regardless

0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.840
<v Speaker 1>of whatever they actually think, we view them critically because

0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.600
<v Speaker 1>ultimately they are feeding beliefs that end up changing these

0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.360
<v Speaker 1>people lives and are often directly benefiting from it themselves.

0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.840
<v Speaker 5>And we all know that COVID was a time of

0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.679
<v Speaker 5>uncertainty and disruption, and it makes sense in a lot

0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 5>of ways that conspiracy theories. You know, people were more

0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.680
<v Speaker 5>susceptible to believing them during that time. Has the effect

0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.079
<v Speaker 5>of that been long lasting or do you think that

0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.720
<v Speaker 5>people are now less susceptible because we're mostly out of

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 5>that error.

0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 1>It's a great question.

0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.439
<v Speaker 6>There was a lot of discussion about whether this anti lockdown,

0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.880
<v Speaker 6>you know, quote unquote freedom movement might emerge as a

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:04.439
<v Speaker 6>political force in Australia.

0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:05.280
<v Speaker 1>So in the.

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.200
<v Speaker 6>Twenty twenty two election, I can remember as reporting on that,

0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 6>we saw a lot of influences from that ecosystem promoting

0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.960
<v Speaker 6>connections with some of the minor parties here in Australia,

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:17.800
<v Speaker 6>and so there was this open question about whether they

0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.080
<v Speaker 6>would be able to get actual members of Parliament senators elected.

0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.439
<v Speaker 6>Ultimately that didn't really bear out in kind of state

0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.800
<v Speaker 6>or federal level. That's a bit different actually at the

0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 6>council level. In recent council elections in Victoria, New South Wales,

0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.920
<v Speaker 6>we did see candidates get onto councils in various sort

0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.120
<v Speaker 6>of regional areas in particular that do have ties to

0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.720
<v Speaker 6>some of these pandemic era movements and have fringe beliefs

0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:47.000
<v Speaker 6>about say vaccines or town planning. You know, when we

0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.960
<v Speaker 6>look at some of the science around conspiratorial belief, you

0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 6>know there are limitations on a lot of these studies,

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.880
<v Speaker 6>but there is some correlation between perceptions of inequality and

0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:05.400
<v Speaker 6>corruption and conspiratorial belief at the national level. I think,

0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.800
<v Speaker 6>as all journalists on this program right now, we can

0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 6>safely say that transparency is lacking in government. If you've

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.480
<v Speaker 6>ever tried to FOI any government department, you'll come up

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 6>against so many different barriers. I have turned a lot

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 6>in this book to some work from Naomi Klein. She

0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.320
<v Speaker 6>wrote a book on called Doppelganga, which it really sort

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.600
<v Speaker 6>of fits into this discussion, and she said that conspiracy

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.200
<v Speaker 6>theorists get the facts wrong, but the feelings right. So

0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.320
<v Speaker 6>the feeling of living in a world with shadow lands,

0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.040
<v Speaker 6>the feeling that every human misery is someone else's profit,

0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.720
<v Speaker 6>the feeling of being exhausted by predation extraction, and the

0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.520
<v Speaker 6>feeling that important truths are being hidden. Like, I don't

0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 6>disagree with that feeling at all, and I can see

0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.440
<v Speaker 6>why people might turn to these ideas when faced with that.

0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 6>And that's the kind of question that we should be

0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.440
<v Speaker 6>asking on a national level, how to address not the

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.520
<v Speaker 6>feeling that so much as the reality of how that happens.

0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 5>In the next episode, we look at how it can speak.

0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.040
<v Speaker 5>Heirises can leap from the dark corners of message boards

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 5>to mainstream politics and the devastating and deadly consequences of

0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.520
<v Speaker 5>unchecked wise it's called from fringe to Parliament, and it's

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 5>in your feed now