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Speaker 1: Five, A nice with Matthew Pantalis. Well, it seems the

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Speaker 1: Liberal Party is moving towards net zero, following the lead

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Speaker 1: of their junior coalition partner, the Nationals, who made the

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Speaker 1: decision a few weeks ago. Liberal MPs meeting in Canberra

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Speaker 1: today backbenchers shadow ministers to thrash out their position moving forward.

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Speaker 1: The Energy Minister now will provide the shadow Cabinet with

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Speaker 1: a more or less formal policy that they'll sign off

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Speaker 1: on tomorrow and I gather announced by tomorrow afternoon. Michael

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Speaker 1: Packy nine radio political reporter in Cambridge has been there

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Speaker 1: for a couple of decades now. Amazing pack good evening,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time. It almost feels as

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Speaker 1: if the party has dragged itself to I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's a common sense position or not, but it

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Speaker 1: sort of has that feel. I must say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, they had to drag to themselves to some

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Speaker 2: sort of a position on this issue because it was

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Speaker 2: so divided over this policy. So the meeting today lasted

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Speaker 2: for five hours. That literally only finished in the last

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Speaker 2: few hours. They were locked in that party room, the

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Speaker 2: whole lot of them, all the MPs, all the senators,

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Speaker 2: to thrash out where they sit on this policy, and

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Speaker 2: they had the majority of them from the numbers that

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Speaker 2: are starting to trickle out, about twenty eight of them

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Speaker 2: spoke in favor of getting rid of net zero, just

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Speaker 2: scrapping that policy. Altogether, about fifteen of them want the

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Speaker 2: policy to stay, and then the rest of them were

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Speaker 2: a bit wishy washy on where they actually sit on

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Speaker 2: this climate and energy policy. So it looks as though

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Speaker 2: what will be announced tomorrow afternoon more than likely is

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Speaker 2: that the Liberals will now no longer accept the net

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Speaker 2: zero target. That's net zero emissions by twenty fifty. Looks

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Speaker 2: as though that's going to go. But what it looks

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Speaker 2: as though that they're going to say instead is that

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Speaker 2: they're still believe that emissions need to come down, but

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Speaker 2: it should not be linked to the twenty to fifty target.

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Speaker 2: It should be reached out, so maybe net zero emissions

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Speaker 2: by twenty sixty or twenty seventy or twenty eighty. So

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Speaker 2: they're saying that emissions still needs to come down, but

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Speaker 2: not at the cost of raising power prices. So they're

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Speaker 2: going to They're saying that the cost of energy, whether

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Speaker 2: it be for households or whether it be for business,

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Speaker 2: is going to be front and center of whatever of

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Speaker 2: whatever it is that they're going to be announcing tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: They're saying, we believe that emissions may come down. We

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Speaker 2: don't think that there should be a target, but the

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Speaker 2: focus should be on emissions coming down and electricity prices

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Speaker 2: also coming down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well absolutely, who would disagree with that? Not putting

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Speaker 1: a target on it? Though? Is that a get out

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Speaker 1: of jailcard? Really? Because how do you measure success?

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Speaker 2: And that's going to be the issue for them, like

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Speaker 2: how do you measure the success? How do you know

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Speaker 2: that your emissions are coming down? Because net zero we've

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Speaker 2: got to remember it's a global term, it's what the

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Speaker 2: international community are using. Now. It's true not every country

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Speaker 2: are going to meet their net zero target of no

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Speaker 2: emissions or virtually no emissions over the next thirty years.

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Speaker 2: And you know, country is already coming out saying that

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Speaker 2: it's unlikely that they're going to that there's going to

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Speaker 2: be net zero emissions by twenty fifty, but that they're

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Speaker 2: but they're working towards it. So the idea that you

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Speaker 2: don't have any form of target, I think that that

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Speaker 2: does make things a little bit more difficult because what's

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Speaker 2: your benchmark are you going to measure measure that against. Look,

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Speaker 2: I think the problem is here is that it's become toxic.

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Speaker 2: That's that's the issue. It's become toxic in the in

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Speaker 2: the sense that the government is rolling out renewable energy

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Speaker 2: at the rate of knots, whether it be wind, solar, battery,

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Speaker 2: whatever it may be. They're rolling out this renewable energy

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Speaker 2: at a rate of knots, to the point that I

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Speaker 2: think Australia now per capita, is one of the few

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Speaker 2: countries that's actually is ahead in the way it's rolling

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Speaker 2: out its renewable energy programs to try and achieve net zero.

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Speaker 2: Other countries are not even keeping up to Australia. But

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Speaker 2: the penalty that we're paying is that households are having

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Speaker 2: to deal with higher energy costs and so are businesses.

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Speaker 2: And so that's where I suppose the tension lies in

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Speaker 2: that they want net zero, they're punching out all these renewables,

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Speaker 2: but it's hurting households and businesses at least in the

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Speaker 2: short to medium term.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And aren't we feeling that through the power

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Speaker 1: bills when they come And this is supposed to be

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Speaker 1: free energy. I can recall Mike Grand John Olson back

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Speaker 1: in the late nineties, early two thousands telling us every

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Speaker 1: time they opened a solar or wind farm, how this

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Speaker 1: was free and we'd see that reflected in our power bills.

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Speaker 1: And all they've done is gone north over the last

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Speaker 1: twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, no one's seen that. And I think the

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Speaker 2: concern is not only for households, but it is for business,

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Speaker 2: especially for manufacturers and those sorts of industries which employ people.

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Speaker 2: I mean, how often are you hearing these days wherever

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Speaker 2: you are, but how often are you hearing these days

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Speaker 2: saying you know what. I'm a small business or medium

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Speaker 2: sized business owner. You know I can't afford to keep

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Speaker 2: the lights on. I really can't afford to continue running

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Speaker 2: my business. I've decided to shut up shop. How often

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Speaker 2: do you hear that?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: You hear that so often. So I think that it'll

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Speaker 2: be interesting to see what they do come up with tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: But remember this is not all over. And I do

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Speaker 2: think and I'm going to be honest with you, Matt,

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Speaker 2: I do think this from a liberal party point of view,

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Speaker 2: this I think has been a bit of a messy

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Speaker 2: and shambolic policy process for them, Like it's been really

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Speaker 2: really messy and it's not over. So tomorrow they've got

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Speaker 2: their meeting, then the Liberals. Then the Liberals will announce

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Speaker 2: their policy. Then they've got to negotiate with the Nationals

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Speaker 2: so that as a coalition they or they're on the

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Speaker 2: same page and go out there and sprook the same

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Speaker 2: policy on.

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Speaker 1: The same page. Won't they be on the same page

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Speaker 1: if they both agree net zero.

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Speaker 2: Goals they're going to you'd hope that they are. But

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Speaker 2: you know, like, you know, one of the arguments was

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Speaker 2: one of the arguments was today should the words net

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Speaker 2: zero actually be used? You know, should there be another term?

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Speaker 2: Because you know, everything that net zero stands for is

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, especially for the conservative or more

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Speaker 2: conservative wing of the Liberal Party, everything that that zero

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Speaker 2: stands for is everything they don't believe in or agreeing on.

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Speaker 2: So there's even debate should the term net zero actually

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Speaker 2: be you know, rubbed out of the lexicon, which I

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Speaker 2: think is silly, because it's an international term. Whether you

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Speaker 2: like it or you don't, whether it's a marketing term

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Speaker 2: or it's not. Forget about all of that. The bottom

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Speaker 2: line is it's part of the lexicon. It's used as

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Speaker 2: that international benchmark. And the other thing is here, Matt

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Speaker 2: that even if the Liberals decide that net zero is

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Speaker 2: done and dusted, right, then they go to the next election,

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Speaker 2: which is not until twenty twenty eight, nind Jude saying

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Speaker 2: that they won't support net zero, and by some miracle,

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Speaker 2: by some miracle, the Liberals happen to win the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty eight election. Okay. The problem that they've got is

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Speaker 2: they might be able to get rid of net zero

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Speaker 2: in the Lower House or in the House of Reps.

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Speaker 2: But then they're going to have to negotiate getting rid

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Speaker 2: of net zero out of legislation in the Senate, and

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Speaker 2: that becomes another challenge with.

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Speaker 1: The Greens there especially absolutely labor and labor of course,

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Speaker 1: that's right, Okay, that's talking of labor. How does the

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Speaker 1: government exploit this because I reckon just as negatively for

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Speaker 1: the government is Chris Bowen standing up at media conferences

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Speaker 1: saying they've got it wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, and this is going. But I think

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Speaker 2: this is a hard one for labor. While they can

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Speaker 2: go out and say, you know, the Liberal Party's got

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Speaker 2: it wrong, or the coalition's got it wrong on net zero.

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Speaker 2: They're going to be damaging investment. And they've put out

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Speaker 2: a release today just to comment on net zero, saying

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Speaker 2: that it would be quote insanity for the Liberal Party

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Speaker 2: or the Coalition to get rid of net zero given

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Speaker 2: how much money is tied up in investment. I think

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Speaker 2: that that's where it's going to head for the Labor Party.

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Speaker 2: The Labor Party is just going to be focusing on

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Speaker 2: the Liberals don't believe in climate change and the Nationals

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Speaker 2: don't either. They have gotten rid of net zero and

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Speaker 2: that's hurting investment and that'll hurt jobs. That's the way

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Speaker 2: I think that Labor is going to prosecute the case,

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Speaker 2: but they've got to be careful because there was a

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Speaker 2: survey that was done by the Resolved Political Monitor which

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Speaker 2: was published in the Sydney Morning Herald and the Age

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne. So there was this survey which says, yes,

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Speaker 2: people are starting to get worried about net zero, but

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Speaker 2: they don't necessarily agree that nothing shouldn't be done about

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Speaker 2: reducing emissions. I think that the problem for more people

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Speaker 2: now is that when they think about net zero, they're

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Speaker 2: thinking of high power prices. So they're saying, potentially, what

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Speaker 2: the government should do is, yes, reduce your emissions, but

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Speaker 2: potentially ease off on the net zero twenty to fifty target.

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Speaker 2: So it's not and so this is and this is

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Speaker 2: the fine line that labor or the Albanese government needs

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Speaker 2: to balance. They are talking about achieving net zero by

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Speaker 2: twenty fifty. The problem is if you're going to achieve

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Speaker 2: that by seriously hurting people in the hip pocket, especially

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Speaker 2: during a cost of living crunch, well then you will

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Speaker 2: be punished at the poles down the track. Whether or

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Speaker 2: not people vote for the Liberals or the Nationals is

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Speaker 2: another thing, because what I also are we seeing that

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Speaker 2: in the polls. What we're also seeing is the rise

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Speaker 2: of one nation's vote.

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Speaker 1: Do you think this will upset that if the Limbs

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Speaker 1: come out with this policy tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Look, maybe to a certain extent it might upset it,

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Speaker 2: But there does appear to be a lot of people

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Speaker 2: that have seemed to be parking their with one nation

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Speaker 2: or independence for that matter, and really punishing the Liberals.

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Speaker 2: What is going to I think what we're going to

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Speaker 2: really see here is that they'll come out with a

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Speaker 2: policy tomorrow, which, as I've explained, more than likely it'll

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Speaker 2: be we don't believe in the net zero target for

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Speaker 2: twenty fifty. We believe in reducing emissions, but power prices

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Speaker 2: also need to come down. That's what essentially I think

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Speaker 2: the Liberals will say, and we're going to do that

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Speaker 2: by investing a lot more in gas and some coal.

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Speaker 2: That's what I think broadly. If I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: a stab at what they're going to come out with tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: that's what I think it will be. The problem is

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Speaker 2: if Susan Lee, the current opposition leader, can't go out

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Speaker 2: there and sell that message and start shifting the poll

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Speaker 2: numbers and start making the Liberals a little bit more

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Speaker 2: competitive to labor and start reducing or depressing that one

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Speaker 2: nation vote, well, then I think that Susan Lee's days

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Speaker 2: are numbered. More than likely by next year she's going

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Speaker 2: to be punted as leader.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting because I had Susan Lee down as something

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Speaker 1: to ask you, and the optics of her in the

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Speaker 1: news footage this evening walking out alone just didn't look

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Speaker 1: right to me, given and optics are important. They think

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Speaker 1: about this sort of stuff in party rooms. How do

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Speaker 1: we walk out after a key meeting? And she came

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Speaker 1: out of line, which either wanted to say, well, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm a strong independent person, I don't need to be

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Speaker 1: surrounded by a gaggle of MPs, or I'm abandoned. And

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Speaker 1: I can't quite make up which of those it is.

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Speaker 2: And I think you're right in saying that it could

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Speaker 2: be one of those. And that's a fair point that

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Speaker 2: you make. I think that the interesting pictures were as

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Speaker 2: they were coming into the party room late this morning

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Speaker 2: at about eleven thirty or so. As they were going

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Speaker 2: into that party room, what you saw is about fifteen

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Speaker 2: conservative MPs, of which you saw people like Sarah Henderson,

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Speaker 2: the Victorian senator, just Internaba Jipper Bryce, the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: Senator walking really you know, the front and at the

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Speaker 2: back of the at the back of both of those

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Speaker 2: was Angus Taylor, a key frontbencher in Susan Lee's shadow cabinet,

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Speaker 2: and beside him was Andrew Hasty, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: the picture that that was painting, there's fifteen more conservative liberals,

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Speaker 2: two women in front, Taylor and Hasty just behind them.

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Speaker 2: I think that the picture that was painting to a

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Speaker 2: lot of people was, you know what. By twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 2: more than likely Angus Taylor will become the new Liberal

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Speaker 2: Party leader or the new Opposition leader, with potentially someone

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Speaker 2: like Andrew Hasty as his deputy. Who knows. But it

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Speaker 2: was an interesting picture of them going into the meeting

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Speaker 2: of the fifth of this gaggle of fifteen more conservative

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Speaker 2: MPs and then, as you quite rightly say, as they

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Speaker 2: came out, they didn't say much. Susan Lee walked out

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Speaker 2: on her own, said it was a great meeting, it

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Speaker 2: was good hearing the views of all my colleagues. But

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Speaker 2: you're right, it could mean I'm going to just walk

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Speaker 2: out alone. I don't need people walking out with me,

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Speaker 2: or basically she's been abandoned.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, all right, time we'll tell on that Paca

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Speaker 1: is always you're the best at a great description of

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Speaker 1: what's happened today. We'll wait and see what happens tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: No problems. Good on you, Matt.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Michael Packy from nine Radio in Canberra, still

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Speaker 1: sitting at his desk right now in Parliament House