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Speaker 1: Fits and whipper.

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Speaker 2: This is exciting because quite often she joins us on

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Speaker 2: the phone. She's now sitting in our studio. She's got

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Speaker 2: a brand new book out. It's called Girlhood. It's Maggie, Dad.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was so good to be lively.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were live, but we can do these things

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Speaker 2: in person now, I know, because everyone so much more beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And I thought you were so true. I mean, thank

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Speaker 2: you is what I meant to say.

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Speaker 1: And so are you so modest it?

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Speaker 2: So are you, Maggie. There are so many questions, and

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that you're now addressing girls in your most

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Speaker 2: recent book because quite often, and I know, the team

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Speaker 2: here says has got two boys. I've got to Tommy's

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Speaker 2: got two boys as well. The conversation has been around boys.

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Speaker 2: But they're very, very different to girls.

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Speaker 1: Look, and what was really interesting when I wanted to

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Speaker 1: it was only with my granddaughters. I'm spending so much

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Speaker 1: time with them. I kept thinking, far out there, sharp

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Speaker 1: sharp sharp, yeah, really sharp, and then far out they

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Speaker 1: worked that out? Did they remember that?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: And I thought it was just my very you know,

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Speaker 1: the gene pool, my granddaughters. When I did the survey,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what came back from nearly five thousand parents

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Speaker 1: and educators was you know that there is this, there's

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Speaker 1: some amazing things, but the challenges that also is shaped

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Speaker 1: in those first five years. You know, our sense of self,

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Speaker 1: our belief system, our mind is shaped. So we wonder

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Speaker 1: why we have problems when we're twelve and thirteen. It

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Speaker 1: all happens in that first five or six years of life.

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Speaker 1: That's when everything gets imprinted.

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Speaker 4: What sort of stuff then are you supposed to do?

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Speaker 4: I mean because on Whips's behalf, I know how much

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Speaker 4: he loves his little girl, and I can think there'd

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Speaker 4: be nothing other than positive affirmations.

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Speaker 1: Three am. We wanted to shut up, Maggie.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, what else are you supposed to be doing

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Speaker 4: beyond just telling your kids how much she loves them?

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Speaker 1: Oh look, it's not just that. It's what our girls

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Speaker 1: are constantly reviewing the world around them and working out

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Speaker 1: how things go right and how do I get what

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Speaker 1: I want? They actually able to get mindful about that.

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Speaker 1: I watched this with my eighteen month old granddaughter. She's

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Speaker 1: sitting there and I could see she was thinking, and

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Speaker 1: not many boys do deep thinking. That's just in case pondering,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I wonder what she's doing. And then

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Speaker 1: I noticed she was looking at Mum in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: and dad in the lounge room, and then went for

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Speaker 1: dad and said, can I have a bickie? So what

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Speaker 1: she's doing at eighteen months is weighing up which is

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Speaker 1: going to give me the best? And I went, what wow? Right?

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Speaker 1: So what we need to do and be really aware

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Speaker 1: is a are we modeling how to be decent human beings?

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Speaker 1: You know? Are we respectful around both genders? Because our

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Speaker 1: girls are picking up both They're not just picking up

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Speaker 1: their own. And I think it's the biggest concern that

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Speaker 1: came back from parents was that they're defined by how

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Speaker 1: they look. Appearance is everything right? You know? That challenge

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Speaker 1: for us all because social conditioning is so strong and

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Speaker 1: in a world we've got images everywhere that we often

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Speaker 1: compliment girls on how they look, but we don't compliment boys.

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Speaker 2: M interesting, really because maybe you talk about her smart

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Speaker 2: and you're right, that's one of the biggest things that

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Speaker 2: I I've noticed in the boys kind of the cruise through.

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Speaker 2: They have a bit of fun when they're growing up,

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Speaker 2: they're developing, and yes they have feelings and emotions, but

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Speaker 2: it's the smartness of the girl which took me by surprise.

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Speaker 2: What that gives her also is the power over the boys.

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Speaker 2: Not only are they in love with her because she's

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Speaker 2: the smallest in the family, but she's manipulating them already,

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Speaker 2: and she will do things. You talk about the cookie, Right,

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Speaker 2: there's the gingerbread man box in the cupboard, so she

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Speaker 2: will weigh up whether she should go to me or

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Speaker 2: Mum to get the gingerbread man. But if I've said no,

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Speaker 2: she'll go to Mum, And then if Mum says no,

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Speaker 2: she'll go to Ted and say, Dad said I could

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Speaker 2: have a gingerbread man, could you get one for me?

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Speaker 2: Because she does. She wants the gingerbread man and doesn't

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Speaker 2: want to get into trouble.

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Speaker 1: No, seriously, not just that. The other thing was the

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Speaker 1: emotional world is really, really, really.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: I'm a therapist counselor. I did that for years, so

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Speaker 1: I've worked with little girls and that's why some of

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Speaker 1: their stories are in there as well. But I was

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Speaker 1: at her birthday party for three year olds, right, and

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Speaker 1: two little girls. All of a sudden, there's this massive

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Speaker 1: melt down the middle of the birthday party because two

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Speaker 1: little girls have turned up with the same shoes on. Now,

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Speaker 1: no joke, and of course imagine having Maggie dentit child's birthday. Like,

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Speaker 1: people are going, Maggie, what do we do? What do

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Speaker 1: we do it? I'm no idea because really, what the

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Speaker 1: heck is that about? No joke, and I'm just just

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Speaker 1: let them let her, let her cry it out. This

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Speaker 1: is distressing for her for whatever reason. And then a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks later, I was at a different birthday

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Speaker 1: party and two little girls are dancing around the room,

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Speaker 1: high fiving, celebrating that they have the same shoes on.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: So it's this incredibly unpredictable, quite complex world.

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Speaker 2: It's extremely complex.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why I wanted to kind of dive

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Speaker 1: in and say, let's let's give this some clues on

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Speaker 1: how we navigate this, because not only the other big

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Speaker 1: one is they don't forget anything. So and really, there

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Speaker 1: was this beautiful story a parent told me about their

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Speaker 1: five year old daughter's birthday party. She's got lots of

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Speaker 1: lovely toys, had a fabulous cake and everything. She was

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Speaker 1: moody all day. This couldn't work out why she wasn't

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Speaker 1: enjoying a birthday party. When they tucked her into bed

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Speaker 1: that night, she said, don't you remember when I asked

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Speaker 1: that I wanted this for my birthday and you didn't

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Speaker 1: give it to me. It was eleven months prior to

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Speaker 1: the birthday. Wow, So you must really keep track of

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Speaker 1: what she tells you, because she's going to call you

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Speaker 1: to account.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we've got to make you the smarts becomes hard

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Speaker 2: at work, and as a two and a half year old,

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Speaker 2: when we try to get her to sleep at night,

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Speaker 2: it's been a disaster getting her down. And she still

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Speaker 2: wakes up at sort of two o'clock in the morning

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Speaker 2: demanding things. But not only does she manipulate us, saying

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Speaker 2: I've got a she bum, I need a drink, I

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Speaker 2: need a blanket on, I need this toy, I need

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Speaker 2: that toy. We've now got to the point where and

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Speaker 2: we only started this week and I was judged for it,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know whether it's the right or wrong thing.

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Speaker 2: The boys have a jar and they get a dollar

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Speaker 2: if they do the right thing. I then said to her,

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a dollar if you go straight to sleep,

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Speaker 2: And then on the weekend, maybe we can go to

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Speaker 2: the toy shop and get another sqush mellow for you

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Speaker 2: or whatever it is. What do you think happened? She

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Speaker 2: went to sleep, so she'd been manipulating that entire time,

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Speaker 2: and I know, I know survival whether she gets that

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Speaker 2: dollar or not. Saturday morning she'll wake up and say squashmellow.

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Speaker 1: Could possibly be five that she wakes up to make

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Speaker 1: sure that you guys are up ready to go. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so let me give you a cup of suggestion all

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Speaker 1: the One of the things that I keep saying to

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Speaker 1: parents is that habits take time to form, right, and

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Speaker 1: that when we keep trying different, different, different than the

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Speaker 1: brain doesn't have a chance to get its predictability happening,

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Speaker 1: and that sometimes we need to go this is this

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Speaker 1: is it? You know, this is what we're doing. We're

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Speaker 1: having a bath, we're having two stories, and you're in

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Speaker 1: your bed. There's your drink bottle if you need a drink,

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Speaker 1: and it's time, and then work out what else can

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Speaker 1: help her come down, because you can't fall asleep until

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Speaker 1: your mind's come us. Girls, Hello, what do we do

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Speaker 1: when we go to bed? We go through everything we

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Speaker 1: did all day and how we could have done it

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Speaker 1: better and where I failed. So we do this whole

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Speaker 1: ruminating loop, and that's what girls will start doing. So

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's the nature sounds, or it's an audio book

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Speaker 1: that has a really boring story in it. In other words,

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Speaker 1: you're distracting that endless chatter that we have as females.

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Speaker 1: I wish we could be like you guys and just

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Speaker 1: go in the sleep box and snore. Sure, I can

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Speaker 1: teach you, no, seriously, I've actually nearly got there. But

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Speaker 1: that also means that they can actually get a thought

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Speaker 1: that's not true and make it a big thing. That's

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Speaker 1: why sometimes we have to spend time really listening to

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Speaker 1: how they're seeing the world and to give them some

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Speaker 1: context rather than tell them they're wrong and that that

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Speaker 1: person when they did that funny look on their face

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Speaker 1: wasn't saying they hate you that. You know, they may

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Speaker 1: have had a pain in their tummy or so they

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Speaker 1: misread stuff. So it's important for us to spend time decoding.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's really funny.

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Speaker 4: When we were growing up, I've got two sisters and

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Speaker 4: a brother, but he was fourth, so they sort of don't.

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Speaker 1: Count do that.

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Speaker 4: But Mum always used to say to us when someone

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Speaker 4: would be nasty to you at school. You don't know

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Speaker 4: what their home life is like. They might be very unhappy.

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Speaker 1: It's a great context, but we were.

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Speaker 4: So little, you think, what do you mean what their

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Speaker 4: home life is like?

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Speaker 1: We all have home life problems.

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Speaker 4: But really to that point, it's true trying to understand.

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Speaker 4: Hear what we're saying, but give us some perspective and reality.

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Speaker 1: Well, the friendship dramas that was right high up on

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Speaker 1: the list of what parents worried about, and they are.

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Speaker 1: They look really tricky, like one minute, best friend's next,

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Speaker 1: not next, sometimes back again, so it's really confusing. But

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Speaker 1: there's a difference around friendships for girls and boys, and

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Speaker 1: that's why the complexity is different. So what we're wired

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Speaker 1: to is females. And this goes back to you know,

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Speaker 1: beginning of time that we tend and befriend, which means

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Speaker 1: that if there's a threat, we go and look after

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Speaker 1: the children or the elderly. That's we're wired to do that. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: we befriend other women in a circle of alliances so

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Speaker 1: that together we're stronger to deal with whatever adversity comes up.

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Speaker 1: So friendships aren't just about like boys, it's proximity. They

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Speaker 1: just want to play, you know, and have fun and

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Speaker 1: fart in each other's face.

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Speaker 2: Fine, and be funny, right.

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Speaker 1: And they're not complex. But you also ask most men

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Speaker 1: how many friends they've got, and they might say two, three,

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Speaker 1: and you say, when did you see them last day?

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Speaker 1: So fifteen years ago. So what they've got now as acquaintances,

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Speaker 1: but they're best friends were little boys or little girls

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Speaker 1: that they played with a lot when they were little,

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Speaker 1: and they kind of haven't moved on. It's a really

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Speaker 1: complex world for us females, and that's why there's lots

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Speaker 1: of tips on it's fascinating how to navigate it.

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Speaker 2: Maggie, what about this one? And I say this hoping

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Speaker 2: that I can possibly help somebody else out that might

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Speaker 2: be going through the same thing for a friend. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: dinner time's a disaster, right, But what we've learned and

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Speaker 2: what's actually started to work for us, and you might

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Speaker 2: be able to add to this, is instead of putting

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Speaker 2: the food on her plate and telling her to eat it,

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Speaker 2: we put it out for everybody to then take. So

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Speaker 2: it's giving the choice back to her and not forcing

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Speaker 2: it on her. The other technique.

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Speaker 1: That agency therefore, and autonomy. So that means that when

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Speaker 1: we give them an opportunity to choose when not controlling them.

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Speaker 2: Sure, girls are.

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Speaker 1: Really sensitive and I did that with mine and I

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Speaker 1: realized when they took off what they wanted, then I'm

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Speaker 1: not throwing food out either. I realize I turned it

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Speaker 1: into breakfast the next day. But you're absolutely right. So

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Speaker 1: what we tend to do is think that we need

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Speaker 1: to make children like even like dinner time. You know, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, in a perfect world, our children rush to

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Speaker 1: the table, don't they with their hands washed al ready

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Speaker 1: to eat and say, Wow, this is delicious. I need

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Speaker 1: everything on the plate. We have these lovely conversations about

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Speaker 1: the day we had. Well it's rubbish, like hello, it's

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. It's a nightmare. So sometimes we're going to

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Speaker 1: work out exactly what works for us and that that

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Speaker 1: is a really powerful strategy that works for everyone, that

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Speaker 1: you take what you feel.

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Speaker 2: The other one, too, is if she's not eating her food,

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Speaker 2: I'll try and take the food from her, and then

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Speaker 2: she gets protective over the food and starts eating her

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Speaker 2: own food. So I'm going to eat that and I'll

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Speaker 2: go to grab it off her plate. No, it's mine.

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Speaker 1: No child starves themselves voluntarily. This is what Dad used

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Speaker 1: to say. Well, sometimes we will do that if we're

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Speaker 1: in a power struggle with our parents.

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Speaker 4: Right, So is there a problem then with on the

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Speaker 4: subject of dinner forcing your kids to eat everything on

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Speaker 4: the plate like I'm very much. When you've finished, everything's

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Speaker 4: gone sort of thing, then you can leave the time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the clean plate place is a really tricky

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Speaker 1: place later in life. There's some messages we give our

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Speaker 1: kids around food that the clean plate is the best

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Speaker 1: way to be. But what we're not honoring is the

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Speaker 1: fact that they may not need that amount of food. Now,

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Speaker 1: I am a recovering one because I'm come from an

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Speaker 1: Irish Catholic background and six kids, and really you had

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Speaker 1: to eat fast anyway if you wanted to get enough food.

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Speaker 1: There was any spear left over. And now you know,

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Speaker 1: it took me years to be able to recognize I

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Speaker 1: didn't have to clean the plate. Yeah, there's a point

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Speaker 1: where actually I'm full. So second one is, you know,

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Speaker 1: don't ever put the guilt on them about the starving

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Speaker 1: children in Africa either, because I'm I'm still I'm still

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Speaker 1: eating for them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, good, you know, I know how old when I

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Speaker 4: mean my youngest sister three, and he's a distracted eater,

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Speaker 4: so I don't trust him to eat to being full.

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Speaker 4: The older one he'll tell me and I say, sure,

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Speaker 4: domorry about it. But the younger one, I think you're

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Speaker 4: not going to sleep because you're not going to eat

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Speaker 4: because you're looking around the story.

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Speaker 1: We do though, because sometimes you know it. They actually

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Speaker 1: eat quite a lot to It's what they eat over

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Speaker 1: the whole day is what our dieticians tell us, rather

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Speaker 1: than we all think the main meal is here, Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, the only work up's starving. And I think

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Speaker 1: the other message is they're also with it if they're

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Speaker 1: not going to eat this, and say, well, this is

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Speaker 1: the option. This is what we have. We're not cooking

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Speaker 1: two or three meals. And there's the fruit bowl, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to cover it just in case you change

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Speaker 1: your mind a little bit later. So when you do

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Speaker 1: that regularly enough and then after the bath, they might

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Speaker 1: go no, I actually I'm a bit hungry. They've got

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Speaker 1: two clear options, so in other words, you're not demanding

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Speaker 1: they eat their dinner, but they've got two options, which

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Speaker 1: again says I'm still choosing. So I'm in control of

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Speaker 1: my destiny.

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Speaker 2: Makee plenty of questions coming through. When we said that

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Speaker 2: you were coming on the show, Kim has messaged and said,

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Speaker 2: why is my four year old daughter just started telling lies?

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Speaker 1: Oh golly. The way then the reason children lie is

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Speaker 1: very interesting. You need to first recognize that that's a

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Speaker 1: sign she's quite emotion intelligent, right, because to be able

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Speaker 1: to lie, you've got to navigate the reality in the procedure.

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Speaker 1: So in actual fact, she's sharp. Now, sometimes they lie

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Speaker 1: because they're frightened of the truth, and sometimes they like

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Speaker 1: as they're just wanting to see the world from you know,

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Speaker 1: see how we go with being creative. So again there

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Speaker 1: are we all tell FIBs. They've seen us tell FIBs, right,

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Speaker 1: you know that no Grandma that that looks lovely on you, right,

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Speaker 1: So they see us. But they've got to work out

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Speaker 1: when we tell lies that help, and then we tell

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Speaker 1: the lies that harm. And that's the message. So if

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Speaker 1: her lies a five the kind of like those ones,

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Speaker 1: you know, just go along with that saying I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that's true and leave it. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: had one of my boys who was very prone to,

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Speaker 1: you know, diving into the ice cream in the freezer,

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Speaker 1: and I'd ask him in, ah, definitely know so, And

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Speaker 1: after a while we everyone knew it was him, you know.

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Speaker 1: And there were times that even as.

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Speaker 2: A forteen year old, I'd we still nobody's.

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Speaker 1: Stuff away, you know, and I'm looking in and the

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Speaker 1: lids off. You know, there's a part of me that

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Speaker 1: would love to be that crabby parent that goes down

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Speaker 1: and says doating that? And I might go down because

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Speaker 1: I want to keep that relationship. Okay, when you're fourteen

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Speaker 1: and a boy, I'll go down and say did I

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Speaker 1: come home a bit quick? And he went, yeah, funny, right,

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Speaker 1: what about this? And put the lid back on and

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Speaker 1: put the spoon in the fridge.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, gee, god, you got me, Maggie. This

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Speaker 2: is from Amy, another four year old question here, my

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Speaker 2: for your old daughter seems to put up more of

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Speaker 2: a fight and answer back the mother two boys. Is

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Speaker 2: it because she's a girl or is it because she's

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Speaker 2: the middle child.

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Speaker 1: That's definitely because she's a girl's way smarter.

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Speaker 2: And I think you're making a sound a bit dumb.

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Speaker 5: Maybe no no, no, no, no, no, no no, no,

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Speaker 5: I know that what the research shows is that the

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Speaker 5: testosterone during utro actually slows down brain development and estrogen

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Speaker 5: speeds it up, so we're actually a little bit behind

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Speaker 5: when you're born, but also transitioning to big school, which

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Speaker 5: is why I'm such a massive advocate for when they're

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Speaker 5: ready rather than when the.

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Speaker 1: World thinks they're sure. Sure, because if you put a

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Speaker 1: little boy into an environment, you can't succeed, and you

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Speaker 1: make an angry boy who thinks he's dumb, and then

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Speaker 1: that becomes a mindset.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So yes, no, she's seriously, and what's a benefit. There's

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Speaker 1: a really big gift in boys having sisters, isn't there.

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Speaker 1: There's massive gift. And I've got two that have got that.

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Speaker 1: And they get you out of trouble, that's for sure. Well,

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Speaker 1: they can work with you. They're great allies, but they

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Speaker 1: also kind of extra mother young no, mate, they teach

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Speaker 1: you how to color in the lines. You know, they

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Speaker 1: dressed better.

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Speaker 2: It gives both ways, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And also the boys, the boys are so soft to her,

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Speaker 3: and you see this beautiful side in the boys, but

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Speaker 3: at the same time you see her getting involved in

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Speaker 3: what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: She's desperate to be part of the team.

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Speaker 1: They are the toughest family that contacted me. So they've

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Speaker 1: got four boys and a girl, and I went, man,

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Speaker 1: she's going to roll Australia. Watch out because she is

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Speaker 1: chasing four older boys. She's three and a half and

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Speaker 1: four already she's got them sorted. But also that great space,

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Speaker 1: there's no gender stuff saying you don't have to wear pink,

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Speaker 1: and you're not supposed to be brave and you're not

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Speaker 1: supposed to be strong.

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Speaker 2: Watch out. One thing I feel is the pressure when

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Speaker 2: we learn about kids and we learn about zero to

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Speaker 2: seven or zero to five is sort of writing the

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Speaker 2: software for their brain. Things can change afterwards, but you

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Speaker 2: know you need to update it and you need to

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Speaker 2: work harder if you want to embed that software. I

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Speaker 2: feel that pressure as a parent when you talk about girls,

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Speaker 2: and I know this is a big question. It is

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Speaker 2: probably not a simple answer. Is what is this? Is

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Speaker 2: there something you would advise us to do with daughters

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Speaker 2: that is the most healthy thing for them in that

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Speaker 2: age of sort of zero to five.

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Speaker 1: No girl is their appearance. It's the appearance issue and

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Speaker 1: what I look like and that you know we need

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Speaker 1: to celebrate issue. Who you are is what we have

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Speaker 1: to figure out that somewhere in you, you've already come

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Speaker 1: with some strengths. Our job is to find out what

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Speaker 1: they are and let you be that. Like some girls

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Speaker 1: are wired to be in the next Sam Kur, and

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Speaker 1: some are wired to be danced and some are Wie,

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Speaker 1: We've got to figure out who they're going to be,

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Speaker 1: and we need to build the things that she struggles with,

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Speaker 1: but that she needs to know. You're here on this

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Speaker 1: planet to be you. You're not in competition with every

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Speaker 1: other girl in the world. Nice you are you and

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Speaker 1: we've got your back.

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Speaker 2: Maggie, We love you. Coming in brand new book is Girlhood,

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Speaker 2: Maggie Dent. Thanks so much. We hang off every word

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Speaker 2: you say. Thanks for coming in.

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Speaker 1: Thanks guys, Fits and Whipper