1 00:00:03,990 --> 00:00:06,449 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,450 --> 00:00:10,318 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Small businesses in Australia say they're facing a perfect 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,799 Sean Aylmer: storm with a raft of new regulations drowning them in 4 00:00:13,799 --> 00:00:18,059 Sean Aylmer: additional costs and red tape. Proposed industrial relations reform is 5 00:00:18,059 --> 00:00:20,640 Sean Aylmer: one of the top concerns, but the threat of cyber 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,810 Sean Aylmer: attack, changes to privacy legislation, increases in the minimum wage 7 00:00:24,810 --> 00:00:28,710 Sean Aylmer: and superannuation guarantee, and rising energy costs are all weighing 8 00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:32,219 Sean Aylmer: heavily on the sector. It's quite a list. Luke Achterstraat 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,979 Sean Aylmer: is the CEO of COSBOA. That's the Council of Small 10 00:00:34,979 --> 00:00:37,769 Sean Aylmer: Business Organizations Australia. Luke, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:39,510 Luke Achterstraat: Thanks for having me, Sean. 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,379 Sean Aylmer: So let's start with the proposed industrial relations reform because 13 00:00:43,380 --> 00:00:45,779 Sean Aylmer: this is really quite broad, will affect a lot of 14 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:48,809 Sean Aylmer: your members. You've surveyed your members and they actually ranked 15 00:00:48,870 --> 00:00:53,068 Sean Aylmer: these reforms as the biggest business risk in coming months. 16 00:00:53,459 --> 00:00:55,200 Sean Aylmer: What is it that they're particularly worried about? 17 00:00:56,010 --> 00:00:58,740 Luke Achterstraat: Look, I think what they're worried about is just increased 18 00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:02,400 Luke Achterstraat: uncertainty and complexity at a time when they can least 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,889 Luke Achterstraat: afford it. So to get inside the mind of a 20 00:01:04,889 --> 00:01:07,769 Luke Achterstraat: typical small business owner at the moment that was sort of 21 00:01:07,770 --> 00:01:10,499 Luke Achterstraat: looking forward to a bit of respite after COVID, they 22 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:14,640 Luke Achterstraat: might have started sensing some green shoots ahead. 43% of 23 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,520 Luke Achterstraat: small businesses aren't profitable at the moment, but there was 24 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,010 Luke Achterstraat: a little bit of optimism ahead. And now what has 25 00:01:20,010 --> 00:01:22,860 Luke Achterstraat: the government gone ahead and done? They've introduced a 284- 26 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:27,089 Luke Achterstraat: page bill with a 500- page explanatory memorandum, which is 27 00:01:27,089 --> 00:01:30,510 Luke Achterstraat: going to really upend the way in which businesses, be 28 00:01:30,510 --> 00:01:34,770 Luke Achterstraat: they big or small, engage casual workers and independent contractors. 29 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:38,220 Luke Achterstraat: Now, the reason why small business is particularly concerned is 30 00:01:38,220 --> 00:01:42,209 Luke Achterstraat: obviously those two cohorts, casuals and contractors are pretty important 31 00:01:42,209 --> 00:01:46,379 Luke Achterstraat: planks in the arsenal for small business workforces. So they're 32 00:01:46,379 --> 00:01:49,710 Luke Achterstraat: really key elements whose definitions are going to be changed. 33 00:01:49,950 --> 00:01:51,780 Luke Achterstraat: So for a small business, they need to get the head 34 00:01:51,780 --> 00:01:55,470 Luke Achterstraat: around that. That creates uncertainty. There's risk, but there's also 35 00:01:55,470 --> 00:01:58,230 Luke Achterstraat: time and money that they'll need to spend to interpret 36 00:01:58,230 --> 00:02:01,080 Luke Achterstraat: those changes potentially to get advice so that they don't 37 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,790 Luke Achterstraat: go to bed every night with that anxiety that they're 38 00:02:02,790 --> 00:02:05,370 Luke Achterstraat: doing the wrong thing. So that's why it's the number one issue 39 00:02:05,910 --> 00:02:08,730 Luke Achterstraat: ahead of interest rates, ahead of energy costs, even ahead 40 00:02:08,730 --> 00:02:11,400 Luke Achterstraat: of cyber risk, which I think is a really scary 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,610 Luke Achterstraat: thought. So we're really looking to draw that message out 42 00:02:14,610 --> 00:02:17,010 Luke Achterstraat: and really make sure the government understands the big impact 43 00:02:17,010 --> 00:02:17,760 Luke Achterstraat: this is going to have. 44 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:20,250 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So I'd like to get onto those other ones 45 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:22,949 Sean Aylmer: in a moment, but let's just stick with the IR 46 00:02:22,949 --> 00:02:26,010 Sean Aylmer: reform at the moment. How do small businesses get their 47 00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:28,829 Sean Aylmer: head around, what did you say, a 500- page explanatory 48 00:02:28,830 --> 00:02:33,419 Sean Aylmer: memorandum of a 280- page legislation? How do they do it? 49 00:02:33,419 --> 00:02:34,560 Sean Aylmer: I mean, I can't do it. How do they do it? 50 00:02:36,570 --> 00:02:38,129 Luke Achterstraat: Yeah. Look, a lot of the time they will need 51 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:40,769 Luke Achterstraat: to look for resources online, be that through the Fair 52 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:44,250 Luke Achterstraat: Work Commission website or fact sheets that are published by 53 00:02:44,550 --> 00:02:46,860 Luke Achterstraat: the Fair Work Ombudsman. And this is really a bit 54 00:02:46,860 --> 00:02:49,050 Luke Achterstraat: of a theme we've been having in our discussions with 55 00:02:49,050 --> 00:02:51,389 Luke Achterstraat: government for a long time now. Now, I think there's 56 00:02:51,389 --> 00:02:53,669 Luke Achterstraat: a lot of work governments can do, not just federally 57 00:02:53,669 --> 00:02:56,819 Luke Achterstraat: but state governments to really improve the way they provide 58 00:02:56,820 --> 00:03:01,380 Luke Achterstraat: information to small businesses. So concrete steps of what needs 59 00:03:01,380 --> 00:03:07,230 Luke Achterstraat: to be done, things like checklists rather than long, verbose principles- 60 00:03:07,230 --> 00:03:09,419 Luke Achterstraat: based documents. So for a lot of small businesses, they'll 61 00:03:09,419 --> 00:03:13,169 Luke Achterstraat: be relying on their industry association, and I suppose indirectly 62 00:03:13,710 --> 00:03:16,739 Luke Achterstraat: organizations like COSBOA as well to really get that information 63 00:03:16,740 --> 00:03:19,829 Luke Achterstraat: out there. But certainly for a time poor small business 64 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:23,430 Luke Achterstraat: owner who's already literally run off their feet, it is 65 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:28,589 Luke Achterstraat: very difficult. And the definitions of casuals and contractors as 66 00:03:28,620 --> 00:03:31,469 Luke Achterstraat: currently stands have been pretty well understood for a period 67 00:03:31,469 --> 00:03:34,679 Luke Achterstraat: of time now. So changing those definitions, fiddling with those 68 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,520 Luke Achterstraat: definitions, inserting more paragraphs into the legislation. I don't see 69 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,580 Luke Achterstraat: it doing favors for anyone, particularly not small businesses, and 70 00:03:41,580 --> 00:03:45,179 Luke Achterstraat: also, Sean, the casual workers themselves. There is a pathway to 71 00:03:45,179 --> 00:03:49,080 Luke Achterstraat: permanency under the current arrangements, and there's a 25% casual 72 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,260 Luke Achterstraat: loading for a reason. So this uncertainty, not only is 73 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:54,509 Luke Achterstraat: it bad for small business and hard for them to 74 00:03:54,510 --> 00:03:56,880 Luke Achterstraat: get their head around it, as you say, but also creates 75 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,590 Luke Achterstraat: uncertainty for the workers as well. 76 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:01,560 Sean Aylmer: What are the consequences of getting it wrong? If I 77 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,889 Sean Aylmer: own a business and I have one full- time employee and 78 00:04:04,889 --> 00:04:07,500 Sean Aylmer: I employ a couple of casuals and I get it 79 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:09,869 Sean Aylmer: wrong, what can be the consequences? 80 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:16,529 Luke Achterstraat: Fines, money, penalties. There's a range of punishments that exist 81 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,849 Luke Achterstraat: currently under the current arrangement, and unfortunately this pretty mammoth 82 00:04:20,849 --> 00:04:25,110 Luke Achterstraat: bill is actually making those civil penalties much more stringent. 83 00:04:25,110 --> 00:04:28,709 Luke Achterstraat: Now, just to be clear, where small businesses deliberately do 84 00:04:28,709 --> 00:04:30,839 Luke Achterstraat: the wrong thing, there should be recourse. 85 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:31,799 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Absolutely. 86 00:04:32,010 --> 00:04:35,460 Luke Achterstraat: Yeah. We're not interested in defending the very small minority 87 00:04:35,730 --> 00:04:38,849 Luke Achterstraat: of employees who deliberately do the wrong thing. That's a 88 00:04:38,849 --> 00:04:42,660 Luke Achterstraat: concept that is often called wage theft. But certainly where 89 00:04:42,660 --> 00:04:46,558 Luke Achterstraat: employers are making mistakes due to the sheer complexity of 90 00:04:46,559 --> 00:04:50,040 Luke Achterstraat: the legislation, we need to think about a safe harbor 91 00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:52,950 Luke Achterstraat: option and we really need to keep things in proportion. 92 00:04:52,950 --> 00:04:56,250 Luke Achterstraat: So it's worth pointing out, Sean, the Department of Employment 93 00:04:56,250 --> 00:04:59,190 Luke Achterstraat: federally, these are the people who wrote the rule book, 94 00:04:59,730 --> 00:05:03,059 Luke Achterstraat: they were in the media recently for underpaying their staff 95 00:05:03,059 --> 00:05:06,630 Luke Achterstraat: themselves because of the sheer complexity of the system. Now, 96 00:05:06,959 --> 00:05:09,419 Luke Achterstraat: if the people who wrote the rule book can't follow 97 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:12,150 Luke Achterstraat: the rules properly, what does that tell you about the 98 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:16,289 Luke Achterstraat: challenges and the complexity facing small business? So certainly no 99 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:20,188 Luke Achterstraat: opposition to proportionate penalties to employees who deliberately do the 100 00:05:20,190 --> 00:05:22,259 Luke Achterstraat: wrong thing, but we just need to really keep it 101 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:26,130 Luke Achterstraat: in perspective here and make sure that the obligations employers 102 00:05:26,130 --> 00:05:29,250 Luke Achterstraat: have are well understood and give them every reason to 103 00:05:29,250 --> 00:05:32,518 Luke Achterstraat: comply. Because for any small business, employing someone could be 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,609 Luke Achterstraat: the biggest decision they make all financial year. Unlike a 105 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:39,928 Luke Achterstraat: big listed entity, hiring, retaining training, it could be the 106 00:05:39,928 --> 00:05:42,330 Luke Achterstraat: biggest risk they take and it's not a risk they 107 00:05:42,330 --> 00:05:45,900 Luke Achterstraat: would want to make more risky, I suppose, by doing 108 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:46,410 Luke Achterstraat: the wrong thing. 109 00:05:46,860 --> 00:05:48,450 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Luke. We'll be back in a minute. 110 00:05:54,630 --> 00:05:58,350 Sean Aylmer: I'm talking to Luke Achterstraat, CEO of the Council of 111 00:05:58,350 --> 00:06:03,149 Sean Aylmer: Small Business Organizations Australia. You mentioned cyber risk earlier on. 112 00:06:03,419 --> 00:06:06,930 Sean Aylmer: We haven't heard so much about it this year, mostly because other things seem 113 00:06:06,930 --> 00:06:09,150 Sean Aylmer: to have stolen the headlines, heard a lot about it 114 00:06:09,150 --> 00:06:12,150 Sean Aylmer: last year, and it's still a real challenge for small 115 00:06:12,150 --> 00:06:13,170 Sean Aylmer: business, I would imagine. 116 00:06:13,770 --> 00:06:17,099 Luke Achterstraat: It's definitely still brewing along, Sean. I think some of 117 00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:20,490 Luke Achterstraat: the recent major cyber attacks in the media with big 118 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,520 Luke Achterstraat: household name brands has really brought it to the fore, 119 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,000 Luke Achterstraat: but it's really important to understand these attacks are happening 120 00:06:27,270 --> 00:06:31,710 Luke Achterstraat: potentially every day. The latest research from the government indicates 121 00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:34,439 Luke Achterstraat: that almost half of all small businesses will at some 122 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,490 Luke Achterstraat: stage be vulnerable to a cyber attack. So we're really 123 00:06:38,490 --> 00:06:42,060 Luke Achterstraat: interested in just making sure that conversation continues, that all 124 00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:45,419 Luke Achterstraat: small businesses are aware of those risks they have. If 125 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:48,118 Luke Achterstraat: you take a typical small business who will be very 126 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,629 Luke Achterstraat: well accustomed to things like locking up their safe at 127 00:06:51,630 --> 00:06:53,940 Luke Achterstraat: night and making sure their cash holdings are safe and 128 00:06:53,940 --> 00:06:58,320 Luke Achterstraat: secure, well equally, your devices, your laptop, your iPad, your 129 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,979 Luke Achterstraat: passwords, they're effectively the same, if not more so in 130 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:04,080 Luke Achterstraat: the sense that they contain a lot of information, a 131 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,859 Luke Achterstraat: lot of data that would be very potentially useful in 132 00:07:07,860 --> 00:07:09,750 Luke Achterstraat: the hands of the wrong person. So it's about making 133 00:07:09,750 --> 00:07:14,460 Luke Achterstraat: sure that safety, that risk management process that small businesses 134 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,130 Luke Achterstraat: have been really good at, that that actually covers the 135 00:07:17,130 --> 00:07:20,520 Luke Achterstraat: digital landscape as well. So might just mention a program 136 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,309 Luke Achterstraat: we're doing with the government called Cyber Wardens. That's a 137 00:07:23,309 --> 00:07:25,679 Luke Achterstraat: half hour course. It's free to sign up, and it's 138 00:07:25,679 --> 00:07:29,309 Luke Achterstraat: just about giving small businesses a quick overview of what 139 00:07:29,309 --> 00:07:32,010 Luke Achterstraat: are the risks, but more importantly, Sean, what are three, 140 00:07:32,010 --> 00:07:35,550 Luke Achterstraat: four or five practical tips they can take on board, 141 00:07:36,090 --> 00:07:38,670 Luke Achterstraat: practical things they can do to minimize that risk of 142 00:07:38,670 --> 00:07:39,389 Luke Achterstraat: a cyber attack. 143 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:45,990 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Luke Achterstraat, the CEO of COSBOA, what about the Privacy Act? There's changes 144 00:07:45,990 --> 00:07:49,440 Sean Aylmer: to that too, and I think that SMEs are actually 145 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,840 Sean Aylmer: going to be captured by the act, whereas previously they 146 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,370 Sean Aylmer: were exempt. Is that right? You might have to explain 147 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:54,000 Sean Aylmer: that one to me. 148 00:07:54,300 --> 00:07:56,970 Luke Achterstraat: Yeah, Sean, look, that's a good segue with Cyber Wardens 149 00:07:56,970 --> 00:08:00,690 Luke Achterstraat: because I think cybersecurity and the Privacy Act are two 150 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:03,809 Luke Achterstraat: issues. They're really sort of twin issues, if you like. 151 00:08:03,809 --> 00:08:07,560 Luke Achterstraat: Now, the government undertook a review of the Privacy Act. 152 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:11,760 Luke Achterstraat: Now that review made a series of recommendations. One was 153 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,660 Luke Achterstraat: to remove the exemption for small businesses, and they decided 154 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:19,949 Luke Achterstraat: to proceed with that recommendation. I suppose what's disappointing about 155 00:08:19,950 --> 00:08:23,699 Luke Achterstraat: it from our perspective is that review also recommended that 156 00:08:23,699 --> 00:08:27,300 Luke Achterstraat: major political parties who are exempt from the Privacy Act 157 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,650 Luke Achterstraat: that that exemption should also be removed. Unfortunately, the government 158 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:36,180 Luke Achterstraat: rejected that recommendation, but accepted the recommendation on small business. 159 00:08:36,420 --> 00:08:38,250 Luke Achterstraat: So it's a pretty hard thing for a lot of 160 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:41,639 Luke Achterstraat: small businesses to swallow that the government's keeping the exemption 161 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:44,700 Luke Achterstraat: for the major political parties, but it's removing the exemption 162 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,280 Luke Achterstraat: for small business. I don't think the optics are very 163 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,420 Luke Achterstraat: good, as a PR person would say, but be that 164 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:53,670 Luke Achterstraat: as it may, what do we need to do? We 165 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:56,099 Luke Achterstraat: need to work with the government moving forward. To their 166 00:08:56,099 --> 00:08:59,189 Luke Achterstraat: credit, some of the language they've used already about having 167 00:08:59,190 --> 00:09:05,310 Luke Achterstraat: a really proper timeline for consultation, proper timeline for implementation, 168 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,879 Luke Achterstraat: potentially compensation as well and making sure that small businesses 169 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,479 Luke Achterstraat: are given adequate time to prepare for these changes. Because 170 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,679 Luke Achterstraat: to be honest, I think small businesses to be successful 171 00:09:16,859 --> 00:09:19,170 Luke Achterstraat: do want to be doing the right thing around privacy. 172 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:22,770 Luke Achterstraat: Customer data is really important, and it's only in small 173 00:09:22,770 --> 00:09:26,400 Luke Achterstraat: businesses' interests to fulfill those obligations and to really make sure 174 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,699 Luke Achterstraat: they're treating their customer data with care. But certainly we 175 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:32,759 Luke Achterstraat: don't need new penalties, we don't need further red tape 176 00:09:32,759 --> 00:09:35,549 Luke Achterstraat: around it. So looking forward to working with the government 177 00:09:35,549 --> 00:09:37,710 Luke Achterstraat: to make sure it's done properly, to make sure it's 178 00:09:37,710 --> 00:09:40,140 Luke Achterstraat: done sensibly and to make sure that no small business 179 00:09:40,140 --> 00:09:40,830 Luke Achterstraat: is left behind. 180 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:44,369 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So we've been talking about policy. What about on 181 00:09:44,370 --> 00:09:47,670 Sean Aylmer: the ground? So we've had an increase in award wages 182 00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:53,968 Sean Aylmer: recently. We've had the super levy increase, certainly interest rates 183 00:09:54,029 --> 00:09:57,929 Sean Aylmer: are rising. How are small businesses doing it week by week? 184 00:09:58,590 --> 00:10:00,510 Luke Achterstraat: Sean, a lot of them are doing it pretty tough 185 00:10:00,510 --> 00:10:03,360 Luke Achterstraat: at the moment. There is that sort of hangover from 186 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,939 Luke Achterstraat: COVID, but on top of that, some of these external 187 00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:09,389 Luke Achterstraat: shocks we've seen in the marketplace, you've seen pretty congested 188 00:10:09,389 --> 00:10:12,989 Luke Achterstraat: supply chains. The cost of doing business has just increased 189 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:15,569 Luke Achterstraat: pretty much across the board. You gave a pretty good 190 00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:18,540 Luke Achterstraat: summary there of a lot of those major cost inputs, 191 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:21,449 Luke Achterstraat: but even things like energy costs. A lot of our 192 00:10:21,690 --> 00:10:26,249 Luke Achterstraat: small hospitality businesses, cafes and delis, they're quite energy intensive 193 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,090 Luke Achterstraat: in terms of refrigeration and keeping the deli section cold, 194 00:10:30,299 --> 00:10:32,400 Luke Achterstraat: and they are labor- intensive as well. And we've seen 195 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,530 Luke Achterstraat: really acute shortages of labor across the board, skill shortages, 196 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,059 Luke Achterstraat: rising wages, also rising interest rates as well, Sean, which 197 00:10:42,059 --> 00:10:44,218 Luke Achterstraat: for a typical small business on the ground to your 198 00:10:44,219 --> 00:10:46,559 Luke Achterstraat: point, could have a bit of a double whammy effect. 199 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,080 Luke Achterstraat: So where a small business owner is different is they might 200 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,510 Luke Achterstraat: have a mortgage on the house in which they live, 201 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:53,790 Luke Achterstraat: but they may also have a mortgage on their small 202 00:10:53,790 --> 00:10:57,090 Luke Achterstraat: business, which they might typically pay three or four, even 203 00:10:57,090 --> 00:11:01,380 Luke Achterstraat: 5% higher than the residential mortgage. So small businesses really get 204 00:11:01,380 --> 00:11:03,360 Luke Achterstraat: hit by that cost of living, that cost of doing 205 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,270 Luke Achterstraat: business crisis in a sort of a double- edged sword, 206 00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:09,360 Luke Achterstraat: if you like, as well as the reduced discretionary spending 207 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,108 Luke Achterstraat: you're seeing in the economy. So 43% of small businesses aren't 208 00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:16,320 Luke Achterstraat: actually profitable at the moment. That's quite a scary thought. 209 00:11:16,590 --> 00:11:18,509 Luke Achterstraat: And really in the three to six months ahead, we 210 00:11:18,509 --> 00:11:21,240 Luke Achterstraat: need every policy lever pulled the right way, not the 211 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,208 Luke Achterstraat: wrong way, and we need communities around Australia to really 212 00:11:24,208 --> 00:11:28,230 Luke Achterstraat: appreciate and value that local experience, that local interaction they 213 00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:29,429 Luke Achterstraat: get from their small business. 214 00:11:29,850 --> 00:11:31,679 Sean Aylmer: Luke, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 215 00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:33,540 Luke Achterstraat: Pleasure, Sean. Thank you for having me. 216 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,549 Sean Aylmer: That was Luke Achterstraat, CEO of COSBOA. This is the Fear and Greed 217 00:11:38,549 --> 00:11:40,889 Sean Aylmer: Business Interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 218 00:11:40,889 --> 00:11:43,920 Sean Aylmer: of Fear and Greed, Australia's best business podcast. I'm Sean 219 00:11:43,949 --> 00:11:45,390 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Have a great day.