WEBVTT - Gas beyond 2050: A Labor revolt or sanctioned dissent?

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlin McGee. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>The members of the Federal Labor government have been pretty

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<v Speaker 1>disciplined about not publicly criticizing party policy, so it raised

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<v Speaker 1>a few eyebrows when MPs in inner city seats took

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<v Speaker 1>aim at the government's Future Gas strategy. The plan pumps

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<v Speaker 1>up gas as a vital part of the energy transition

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<v Speaker 1>through to twenty fifty and beyond, which is at odds

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<v Speaker 1>with moves to get households off gas as quickly as possible. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>the Saturday Paper is Mike second on what's behind the

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<v Speaker 1>gas plan and my little sanctioned descent might be part

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<v Speaker 1>of a broader electoral strategy. It's Thursday, May twenty three,

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<v Speaker 1>so Mike. Earlier this month Labor released what it's calling

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<v Speaker 1>the Future Gas Strategy. Tell me a bit about the plan.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it came out the Thursday before the budget and

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<v Speaker 2>it was released by the Resources Minister madal And King.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one hundred and ten page document entitled the Future

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<v Speaker 2>Gas Strategy. I have to say my initial thoughts were

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<v Speaker 2>that this could have been written by Angus Taylor. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it is very very pro gas could almost have been

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<v Speaker 2>written by the industry itself actually, you know, more exploration,

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<v Speaker 2>more production, And the key quote that got a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people agitated was that gas would continue to be

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<v Speaker 2>vital to their transition through to twenty fifty and beyond.

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<v Speaker 3>There has to be a discussion and an assessment of

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<v Speaker 3>how all energy sources fit within that journey to net

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<v Speaker 3>zero by twenty fifty. We know that cole is retiring,

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<v Speaker 3>lowering emissions, renewables are growing, and we're investing in that

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<v Speaker 3>our government.

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<v Speaker 2>She also said that it would be crucial to one

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<v Speaker 2>of the government's key economic reforms, the Future Made in

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<v Speaker 2>Australia policy. It paid lip service to reaching net zero

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<v Speaker 2>by twenty fifty, but keeping gas in the mix and

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<v Speaker 2>affordable during that transition.

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<v Speaker 3>But even so, we will need other energy sources to

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<v Speaker 3>make sure that we keep the economy going, that we

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<v Speaker 3>give consumers choice and access to affordable energy and heating.

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<v Speaker 2>It also said that we would need new sources of

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<v Speaker 2>gas supply to meet demand during the transition. It promised consumers'

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<v Speaker 2>freedom of choice to continue using gas in their homes,

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<v Speaker 2>something which is at odds with a lot of policies

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<v Speaker 2>that various states are pursuing to try and get people

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<v Speaker 2>off gas.

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<v Speaker 3>They will need gas to power those operations until there

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<v Speaker 3>are substitutes, and the usual gas strategy is encouraging of

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<v Speaker 3>those substitutes.

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<v Speaker 2>So it ran counter to a fair part of I

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<v Speaker 2>guess you would call it the narrative, the labor narrative

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<v Speaker 2>of dealing with climate change, because you know the use

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<v Speaker 2>of gas to support transition remains very controversial. You won't

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<v Speaker 2>be surprised to know that this was spectacularly an instantly

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<v Speaker 2>unpopular with a lot of people outside the gas industry,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly all the environment groups. But not only that, and

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<v Speaker 2>this was more interesting in political terms, it actually sparked

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<v Speaker 2>assent within Labour's own ranks.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me a bit more about that. Who's been speaking, Adam,

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<v Speaker 1>what have they been saying.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the most notable and pointed was Josh Burns, who's

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<v Speaker 2>a Labor backbencher from Victoria, and he appeared on R

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<v Speaker 2>and Breakfast the next morning and his opening gambit was

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't get into politics to be a support mechanism

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<v Speaker 2>for the fossil fuel industry.

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<v Speaker 4>When I got into Parliament, I was one of the

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<v Speaker 4>youngest MP's in the House of Representatives. I'm still relatively

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<v Speaker 4>young and I feel a sense of responsibility that I

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<v Speaker 4>stand up for not only my generation and the generations

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<v Speaker 4>after me and my daughter, that we do everything we

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<v Speaker 4>can to try and transition our economy from higher missions

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<v Speaker 4>fossil fuels to lower missions technology.

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't just what he was saying publicly. Also

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<v Speaker 2>suggested that he was going pretty hard in private. He said,

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<v Speaker 2>I think the most important conversation are often done behind

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<v Speaker 2>closed doors.

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<v Speaker 4>My responsibility is to be a strong voice for McNamara

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<v Speaker 4>in government, and I take that responsibility extremely seriously. I

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<v Speaker 4>think I think everyone in government knows that both myself

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<v Speaker 4>and my electorates wants stronger action on climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>Victoria at a state level, has shown its determination to

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<v Speaker 2>reduce the role of gas and the energy mix. In

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one, the state labor government actually saw the

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<v Speaker 2>insertion of a ban on gas fracking into the state constitution.

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<v Speaker 2>In January this year, the state government banned new gas

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<v Speaker 2>connections for new homes.

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<v Speaker 4>We speak to each other obviously in a we're colleagues,

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<v Speaker 4>and because there's quite a few of.

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<v Speaker 5>You, I mean, this is the biggest revolt I've seen

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<v Speaker 5>since covering your government.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I would say a couple of points. One is

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<v Speaker 4>that there are.

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<v Speaker 2>Josh Burns electorate. McNamara is one of the most progressive

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<v Speaker 2>in and already progressive state. So Josh Burns is probably

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<v Speaker 2>more aware than any other Labor member that his electoral

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<v Speaker 2>survival could depend on climate change and the support of

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<v Speaker 2>voters who are very concerned about climate change. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the figures tell the story. I think at the last

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<v Speaker 2>election he only won on preferences. He got less than

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<v Speaker 2>thirty two percent of the first preference vote. The Greens

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<v Speaker 2>candid got twenty nine point seven, so only a few

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<v Speaker 2>points behind. You know, had just another two thousand of

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<v Speaker 2>McNamara's you know, ninety seven thousand odd voters put a

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<v Speaker 2>number one against the Greens candidate instead of Labor. He

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be the member for McNamara today, so hence his

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<v Speaker 2>great concern that he doesn't lose any more voters to

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<v Speaker 2>the Greens.

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<v Speaker 1>He's surely not the only voice feeling that way about

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<v Speaker 1>the Greens, as anyone else within the party spoken out.

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<v Speaker 1>Has it been a bigger division within the party over

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<v Speaker 1>the gas statement.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there certainly has, and you know he was I

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<v Speaker 2>think he would say the strongest, But there have been

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<v Speaker 2>a number of others seven or eight I've kind of

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<v Speaker 2>lost count have made public statements. I gather there are

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<v Speaker 2>quite a lot of others who are similarly displeased with

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<v Speaker 2>Madeline King, but expressing in private.

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<v Speaker 6>Six backbenches have told the ABC the government should be

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<v Speaker 6>speeding up the transition away from fossil fuels.

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<v Speaker 2>What's interesting about this is if you have a look

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<v Speaker 2>at where their seats are, almost all of those speaking

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<v Speaker 2>out come from electorates where the Greens vote could be decisive.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I mentioned Macnamara Burns seat. But let's take

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<v Speaker 2>another example from a person who had a bit to say.

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<v Speaker 2>That's another Labor back bench of Michelle and Ander Raja.

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<v Speaker 6>One of those backbenches is Higgins MP, the Victorian seat

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<v Speaker 6>of Higgins doctor Michelle Ananda Raja. Now, she said the

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<v Speaker 6>announcement caught her by surprise. She said that she felt

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<v Speaker 6>like she was blind sided by the announcement and.

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<v Speaker 2>She's a first term member of Parliament and she said

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<v Speaker 2>that there was a total lack of consultation on this.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a similar story a couple of seats to the

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<v Speaker 2>north in an electorate of Jagga Jagger. The member there

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<v Speaker 2>Kate twaits Jagger.

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<v Speaker 6>Now she says that her focus and the focus of

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<v Speaker 6>the government has been on the transition to renewable energy,

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<v Speaker 6>not prolonging fossil fuels. So certainly was some of the

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<v Speaker 6>concerns raised by those back benches now.

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<v Speaker 2>Them to cite just a couple more Jed Carney and

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Khalil, a couple more Melbourne seats. So I guess

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<v Speaker 2>the point is here the Greens are breathing down Labour's

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<v Speaker 2>neck in a number of seats. All of these members

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<v Speaker 2>that are speaking out, they would all be very well

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<v Speaker 2>aware that a key appeal of the Greens to these

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<v Speaker 2>inner city voters is based in substantial measure on the

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<v Speaker 2>concerns some voters have that Labor is not moving fast

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<v Speaker 2>enough to exit fossil fuels.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Mike, with a number of Labor and PA speaking

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<v Speaker 1>out like this, could this be a bit of a

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<v Speaker 1>headache for the government.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, for a start, Labor has the strongest rules

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<v Speaker 2>of any of the parties on maintaining the party line.

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<v Speaker 2>So even the fact that we're getting this commentary from

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<v Speaker 2>backbenches at all is unusual. Even more unusual, I might say,

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<v Speaker 2>is the fact that Jed Carney was one of them

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<v Speaker 2>because she's not a backbencher, she's a minister as well

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<v Speaker 2>as a former president of the ACTU. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>the bigger issue here is not so much the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that people are speaking out as the political reality behind it,

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<v Speaker 2>which is that on the gas issue in particular, Labor

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<v Speaker 2>is trying to appeal to a couple of very different constituencies,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, those in these progressive, mostly inner city electorates

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<v Speaker 2>who are very concerned about climate change on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>and then on the other hand, constituents in the big

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<v Speaker 2>mining states like Western Australia and Queensland. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>also interesting that many of those that went public used

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<v Speaker 2>similar and somewhat vague rhetoric about moving to renewables as

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<v Speaker 2>soon as possible, you know, that sort of thing. They

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<v Speaker 2>didn't actually challenge the idea that gas might be around

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<v Speaker 2>to twenty fifty or beyond. Also interesting is the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that they weren't slapped down by the leadership. Some people

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to suggested this and it was a nice

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<v Speaker 2>phrase one used, sanctioned dissent, which is that the leadership

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<v Speaker 2>knew that these MPs had to kick over the traces

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit for the sake of their own future

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<v Speaker 2>electoral survival, which of course ultimately means the survival of

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<v Speaker 2>the government as well. I guess so, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>want to be unduly cynical here, but I get the

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<v Speaker 2>impression that, as one labor source put it to me,

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<v Speaker 2>there are quite a lot of people in the party

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<v Speaker 2>who are genuinely and this is a direct quote, pissed

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<v Speaker 2>off at King for needlessly undermining the party's narrative on

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<v Speaker 2>energy policy.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break. If it's causing internal headaches, what does

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<v Speaker 1>the government get out of giving gas a future.

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<v Speaker 2>Mike?

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<v Speaker 1>It seems like the Greens are gearing up to fight

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<v Speaker 1>labor over climate at the next federal election, which you know,

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<v Speaker 1>no massive surprise there, but it seems like they might

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<v Speaker 1>have a bit of new ammunition with this future gas strategy.

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<v Speaker 1>So what are the Greens been saying?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you're absolutely right. Last week Adam band, the Greens leader,

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<v Speaker 2>held a press conference. Whatever one might think of Adam

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<v Speaker 2>Bant's political views, he's a pretty cunning politician. I think,

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<v Speaker 2>probably the most cunning politician that the Greens have had

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<v Speaker 2>leading them, and he straight up challenged the lay Brean

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<v Speaker 2>peace he'd spoken out. He called them grand standards.

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<v Speaker 5>This is a chance now to put your money where

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<v Speaker 5>your mouth is and be on the right side of history.

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<v Speaker 5>Stop approving you coal and gas mines. Come and vote

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<v Speaker 5>with those of us in the Greens and on the

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<v Speaker 5>cross bench who know the science, who want to stop

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<v Speaker 5>seeing this climate crisis get worse. And if you don't,

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<v Speaker 5>if they don't leave you, if your party doesn't let you,

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<v Speaker 5>then quit your party, because it is crystal clear now.

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<v Speaker 2>He also fed the narrative. I think that they had

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<v Speaker 2>engaged in a bit of expedy and authorized descent to

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<v Speaker 2>use that phrase again, you know, he said, wasn't it

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<v Speaker 2>a coincidence that they all coined their lines and that

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<v Speaker 2>no one had come down on them for doing it?

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<v Speaker 5>Here I move that so much of standing in sessional

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<v Speaker 5>orders be suspended as would prevent the Member from Melbourne

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<v Speaker 5>from moving the following motion.

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<v Speaker 2>Adam mad the next day in Parliament moved a motion

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<v Speaker 2>noting that the world was on track for two point

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<v Speaker 2>five degrees of warming, and then he called for the

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<v Speaker 2>House to condemn the future gas strategy.

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<v Speaker 5>It is vital that today we debate now and call

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<v Speaker 5>on the government to stop approving new coal and gas mines,

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<v Speaker 5>because what is crystal clear now after the announcement we've

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<v Speaker 5>seen over the last few days, is that Labor wants

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<v Speaker 5>coal and gas past twenty fifty. Past twenty fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it was just parliamentary theater, of course, but

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<v Speaker 2>nonetheless it was very embarrassing in that it was a

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<v Speaker 2>reminder that the Labor government really isn't all that different

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<v Speaker 2>from its conservative predecessors in its willingness to open up

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<v Speaker 2>more fossil fuel production. And so anyway, went to a

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<v Speaker 2>vote and guess what, no Labor members voted for that

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<v Speaker 2>Greens motion. So in spite of the fact that they're

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<v Speaker 2>speaking out, they're not taking the sort of action that

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<v Speaker 2>the Greens would like and presumably that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the constituents of their electorates would like to see.

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<v Speaker 1>Mike Labour's obviously given the Greens this kind of AMMO.

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<v Speaker 1>But just play that out for me. What's in it

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<v Speaker 1>for Labor, Like, what do they have to gain from

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<v Speaker 1>this future gas strategy?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let's have a look at the politics and understand

0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.520
<v Speaker 2>what Madeline King's doing here. The first thing to notice

0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.280
<v Speaker 2>that the future gas strategy it doesn't involve any new

0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.720
<v Speaker 2>legislation or even really a change of policy, which is

0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.760
<v Speaker 2>funny because it means we're having this big announcement in

0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.400
<v Speaker 2>the first place. Seems like starting a fight for no reason,

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:12.560
<v Speaker 2>and a couple of the unhappy people put it to

0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.640
<v Speaker 2>me in exactly those terms. So you know, maybe you

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.320
<v Speaker 2>could say, being charitable about it, that Madeline King was

0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.440
<v Speaker 2>trying to make the point that gas is an important bridge,

0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.120
<v Speaker 2>a transition fuel on the path to renewables, and that

0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.559
<v Speaker 2>she just communicated that clumsily. Possibly being a West Australian

0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.040
<v Speaker 2>from one of the big fossil fuel states, she didn't

0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.480
<v Speaker 2>fully appreciate the sensitivities on this issue elsewhere in the country.

0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, Western Australia is a big resource state, Conservatives

0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.720
<v Speaker 2>tend to dominate. In fact, the probably the biggest surprise

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.640
<v Speaker 2>at the last election, the twenty twenty two election, was

0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.599
<v Speaker 2>that Labour managed to gain so many seats in WA.

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.480
<v Speaker 2>If it wants to attain government, and remember it only

0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.160
<v Speaker 2>holds government by a couple of seats, it will have

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.400
<v Speaker 2>to hold onto those gains in the West and it

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.480
<v Speaker 2>will have to pick up some in Queensland, the other

0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:07.839
<v Speaker 2>big resource state. So you know, the future gas strategy

0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.240
<v Speaker 2>has divided the country in a way and divided labor

0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.040
<v Speaker 2>along the way. It's toxic in the inner city seats

0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.560
<v Speaker 2>in the Eastern States, but out in the provinces people

0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.880
<v Speaker 2>are much more likely to support King's argument that fossil

0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 2>fuel resources are vitally important. And somewhere in the middle

0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.319
<v Speaker 2>you have a lot of probably outer suburban seats where

0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.680
<v Speaker 2>people are concerned about the climate but kind of like

0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:29.559
<v Speaker 2>cooking on gas.

0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.320
<v Speaker 1>So, Mike, that's the political rationale for what's going on here.

0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 1>But what about the economic argument that gas is vital

0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.319
<v Speaker 1>to transitioning to net zero, Because that's I mean, that's

0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.120
<v Speaker 1>pretty much the policy position we're at now, does it

0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:42.760
<v Speaker 1>stuck up?

0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, you're entirely right. It was the policy position before

0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.560
<v Speaker 2>Madeline King put out her paper, and nothing's changed after

0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 2>the paper, which is what flummoxes me. I can't quite

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.040
<v Speaker 2>understand that necessity for it at all. The argument is

0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.840
<v Speaker 2>that Australia needs access to reasonably priced gas to make

0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the transition. But the truth here is that Australia has

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.760
<v Speaker 2>lots of gas, but we export eighty percent of the gas,

0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.680
<v Speaker 2>mostly to countries in Asia. China actually burns more Australian

0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.199
<v Speaker 2>gas than Australias and now the solution that's being proposed

0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.600
<v Speaker 2>is to dig up more gas. King lauded the fact

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 2>that last financial year LNG liquefied natural gas exports were

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.280
<v Speaker 2>Australia's second largest export by value, and that they earned

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.240
<v Speaker 2>something like ninety two billion dollars and employed some twenty

0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 2>thousand people. Well, my first point would be twenty thousand

0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 2>people isn't really that many In the grand scheme of things.

0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Woolworth's employs ten times as many people as the gas industry.

0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 2>It is not very labor intensive. Meanwhile, China, Japan, South

0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Korea are burning far more Australian gas than Australia does,

0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 2>and global climate change continues apace. So if Madeline King

0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.160
<v Speaker 2>is troubled by any of this, by the climate change

0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.640
<v Speaker 2>consequences of mining lots more gas, by the fact that

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 2>it is not want the economic bourn that it's portrayed

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 2>to be, it certainly isn't apparent in her glowing portrayal

0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>of Australia's gas driven future in the strategy that she

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.080
<v Speaker 2>put out a week or so back.

0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 1>Mike, thanks so much for your time today.

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:28.040
<v Speaker 1>We'll have more after this break. Also in the news today,

0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.640
<v Speaker 1>several Australians are still in hospital after a Singapore Airlines

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 1>flight experienced major turbulence and was forced to land at

0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.720
<v Speaker 1>Bangkok Airport. A seventy three year old British Man died

0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.200
<v Speaker 1>and dozens more were injured, some seriously. Fifty six Australians

0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.080
<v Speaker 1>were among the two hundred and eleven passengers and eighteen

0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 1>crew on board the flight. There's a debate over whether

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.160
<v Speaker 1>climate change is contributing to more instances of severe turbulence.

0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:57.240
<v Speaker 1>One recent study found turbulence in jetstreams may double or

0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 1>trouble over the coming decades. And Shadow treasurer Angus Taylor

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 1>has unveiled the opposition's plans to bring down the cost

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.960
<v Speaker 1>of housing, putting immigration at the center of the coalition's policy.

0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.440
<v Speaker 1>During a speech at the National Press Club, Taylor promised

0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.760
<v Speaker 1>a coalition government would temporarily ban foreign investors and temporary

0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 1>residents from buying existing homes. He also said that reduced

0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.720
<v Speaker 1>permanent migration by twenty five percent for two years and

0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.040
<v Speaker 1>cast out on economic modelings suggesting that could lead to

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 1>a recession. That's all from the seven AM team for today.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening. We'll see you again tomorrow.