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Speaker 1: John Kiriaku, welcome to straight Talk, mate.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, very happy to be with you.

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Speaker 1: It's a mad time at the moment, like geopolitically across

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Speaker 1: the world, so it's actually very timely have an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to speak to someone like you. Thank you very much,

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Speaker 1: appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: My plan.

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Speaker 1: I've been following your stuff for a long time, a

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Speaker 1: huge fan, like we love what you do than you

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Speaker 1: in factors. You got Greek surname. That helps, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I know, right, we got to stick together, someone called

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Speaker 1: Boris and someone talking to someone called Kiriaka cool. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So maybe you could just John, you could just give

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Speaker 1: me a little bit of a background on you as

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Speaker 1: because because our audience you're in Australia in particular, loves

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Speaker 1: to know how you grew up, you know what, with

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Speaker 1: the influencers in your life, particularly as a kid, your mom,

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Speaker 1: your dad, your grandfather, your grandmother, your your regionally area,

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Speaker 1: where'd you grow up? Give me a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a background on you. Sure.

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Speaker 2: I was born and raised in western Pennsylvania in a

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Speaker 2: very rural, tiny town in Amish Country north of Pittsburgh

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Speaker 2: by one hour. Really, my biggest influences in my life

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Speaker 2: were my dad and my grandfather, my father's father. My

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Speaker 2: entire family emigrated to the United States from Greece from

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Speaker 2: the island of Rhodes, all four of the grandparents in

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one on my dad's side, nineteen thirty four

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Speaker 2: on my mother's side. The week after I turned eighteen,

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Speaker 2: I went to Washington, d C. Went to school at

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Speaker 2: George Washington University. I I earned a bachelor's degree in

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Speaker 2: Middle Eastern Studies, and I stayed for a master's degree

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Speaker 2: in Legislative affairs with a focus on American foreign policy analysis.

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Speaker 2: My graduate school advisor, it turned out, was undercover as

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Speaker 2: a graduate school advisor. He was a CIA officer looking

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Speaker 2: for people who might fit into the CIA's culture. He

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Speaker 2: believed that I would fit into the CIA's culture, and

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Speaker 2: he recruited me into the CIA. I spent fifteen years there.

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Speaker 2: The first half of my career was in analysis, specifically

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Speaker 2: on Iraq, and then the second half of my career

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Speaker 2: was in counter terrorism operations. I served many tours overseas

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Speaker 2: in counter terrorism. I was the chief of CIA counter

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Speaker 2: terrorism operations in Pakistan just after the nine to eleven attacks,

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Speaker 2: and that's where things sort of begin to turn. I'm

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Speaker 2: sorry to say that I was the only person who

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Speaker 2: objected to the CIA torture program. I did so internally,

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Speaker 2: which just fell on deaf ears. And then after I

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Speaker 2: left the CIA, I decided finally to go public in

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Speaker 2: a nationally televised interview, and I said that the CIA

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Speaker 2: was torturing its prisoners, that torture was official US government policy,

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Speaker 2: and that the policy had been personally approved by the President.

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Speaker 2: All hell broke loose, as you might imagine. But in

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Speaker 2: the meantime, I took a job as the chief investigator

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Speaker 2: on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, working for John Kerry.

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Speaker 2: After I left the Foreign Relations Committee, the government fell

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Speaker 2: on my head and I was arrested and charged with

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Speaker 2: five felonies, including three counts of espionage, for that interview

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Speaker 2: with ABC News in which I said that the CIA

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Speaker 2: was torturing its prisoners. To make a long story short,

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Speaker 2: I was facing forty five years in prison. They offered

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Speaker 2: me twenty three months if I would just take a plea.

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Speaker 2: I turned down the plea, much to the consternation of

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Speaker 2: my attorneys, who then told me that they would resign

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Speaker 2: as my attorneys if I didn't take the plea because

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Speaker 2: I was realistically, they said, facing twelve to eighteen years,

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Speaker 2: take the twenty three months and make it go away.

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Speaker 2: And so I did. And you know, the funny thing,

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Speaker 2: Mark is that I was at the CIA a long time,

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Speaker 2: and I would have assumed that they knew me, and

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Speaker 2: if they thought that prison would silence me, they didn't

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Speaker 2: know me at all. So I did my twenty three months,

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Speaker 2: and I've been a vocal critic of the CIA and

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Speaker 2: of torture and of human rights abuses ever since.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty crazy story. So if I got back to

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Speaker 1: a period when you decided to go to university and

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Speaker 1: study Middle Eastern studies, that I'd probably been out there

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Speaker 1: back then.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you something that's more out there. When

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Speaker 2: I was nine years old, my father took me to

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Speaker 2: an auction and he bought a box of junk. I

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Speaker 2: still remember he paid fifty cents for it. It was

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Speaker 2: just a box of just junk that was left over.

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Speaker 2: But that junk happened to include a short wave radio

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Speaker 2: and it opened up an entire new world for me.

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Speaker 2: And I told my parents when I was nine years

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Speaker 2: old that I wanted to be a spy.

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Speaker 1: When I grew up Wow.

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Speaker 2: And they thought that was cute and they bought They

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Speaker 2: bought me a set of walkie talkies that year for Christmas.

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Speaker 2: And then when I was sixteen, I told them I

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Speaker 2: want wanted to be a spy in the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: And my father said, come on, is still with the

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Speaker 2: spy with the spy thing. Can't you be a dentist

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Speaker 2: or something? And I said, Dad, I'm serious, I want

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Speaker 2: to be a spy in the Middle East. And so

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Speaker 2: I became a spy in the Middle East, and I

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Speaker 2: loved every minute of it. I learned to speak fluent Arabic,

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Speaker 2: I immersed myself in the culture, the history, the poetry,

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Speaker 2: and the literature and succeeded there.

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Speaker 1: But what was driving you to do Middle East? I mean,

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Speaker 1: did you feel as though they were doing the wrong

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Speaker 1: thing and it was something you needed to spy on

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Speaker 1: for your country or was it more or was it

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Speaker 1: more trending at the time, I mean, what was the

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Speaker 1: deal there? Like, I can't imagine why.

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Speaker 2: It was decidedly trending? The Iranian the Shah of Iran

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Speaker 2: had been overthrown, the Iatolas had come into power, and

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Speaker 2: they took the American embassy and then held fifty five

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Speaker 2: American diplomats hostage for four hundred and forty four days,

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Speaker 2: and I was obsessed with this hostage crisis and wanted

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Speaker 2: to learn as much about the Middle East as I could.

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Speaker 2: I can't tell you why I was more interested in

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Speaker 2: the Arab side of things than the Iranian but Arab

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Speaker 2: culture just has always fascinated me. And even when I

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Speaker 2: was in college, I went backpacking one summer with my girlfriend.

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Speaker 2: We spent three months, and she wanted to go to

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Speaker 2: London and Paris and Rome, and we did all that,

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Speaker 2: but then we also went to you know, Istanbul and

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Speaker 2: Jerusalem and Cairo at my insistence, and I was hooked.

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Speaker 1: Had that end up with that girlfriend?

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Speaker 2: You know, we're still Facebook friends, but I will admit

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Speaker 2: to you that she's the one who got away.

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Speaker 1: So, John, was it more of a curiosity from your

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Speaker 1: point of view? Were you insanely curious about what's going

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Speaker 1: to the Middle East? A culture, what drives them to

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Speaker 1: be that way?

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Speaker 2: All?

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Speaker 1: Were you doing for country? No, in other words, for

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Speaker 1: your nation. Did you feel as though I have a

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Speaker 1: duty to understand the region and protect my country? Which

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Speaker 1: was it?

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. It was kind of a combination

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Speaker 2: of the two. On the one hand, Yeah, I was

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Speaker 2: so fascinated by the whole place, Like, for example, even

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Speaker 2: as a teenager, I wanted to know how these little

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Speaker 2: royal families in these little tiny countries got to be

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Speaker 2: royal families, and why was for example, the Kuwaiti family

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Speaker 2: a ruling family and not a royal family, and all

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Speaker 2: the others were royal families, And why were some emirs

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Speaker 2: and sheikhs and the others were princes and kings. And

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Speaker 2: I loved it. What made the job easy easier was

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Speaker 2: that the United States has always had very close relations

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Speaker 2: with these countries, and so we were always seen as

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Speaker 2: the good guy, and you know, relations were close, and

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Speaker 2: we weren't targeting these countries for recruitment because you know,

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Speaker 2: our intelligence leads on relationships were close enough that they

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Speaker 2: were giving everything to us anyway. So when I was

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Speaker 2: working there, it was Iranians that I wanted to go after,

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Speaker 2: or Iraqis that I was going after, or Syrians or

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Speaker 2: Russians in Chinese for that matter. It wasn't we didn't

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Speaker 2: have this. We didn't have the kind of relationship with

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Speaker 2: these different countries that would have caused any kind of

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Speaker 2: friction or difficulty, and it made life very very easy

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Speaker 2: for me there.

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Speaker 1: So, like you op posted to Bahrain, for example, and

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Speaker 1: you're with the American embassy, but you know, with the

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Speaker 1: CII what I know, we see the movies, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: But what are you actually doing when you're sitting in there?

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I don't want you to give anyway

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Speaker 1: any state secrets, but what's your process? Are you're trying

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Speaker 1: to recruit somebody to give you information about what's going

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Speaker 1: on in the region, or you you know, interrupting the

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Speaker 1: telephone lines, or what are you doing? What happens DYE today?

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Speaker 2: Generally, Well, I'll answer you in two ways. I worked

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Speaker 2: for a deputy director at the CIA. I was his

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Speaker 2: assistant my last headquarters position, and he had a mantra

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Speaker 2: that he used to repeat every single day that the

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Speaker 2: job of the CIA is to recruit spies to steal secrets,

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Speaker 2: and then to analyze those secrets so that the president

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Speaker 2: can make the best informed policy. That was the bottom line.

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Speaker 2: The tech and the fancy stuff that's all layered on

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Speaker 2: top of it, but the bottom line is we recruit

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Speaker 2: spies to steal secrets and then when you're in the field, actually,

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Speaker 2: in the act of recruiting a spy to steal a secret.

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Speaker 2: There's a process there that we called the asset acquisition cycle.

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Speaker 2: It was spot, assess, develop, recruit. So you and I

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Speaker 2: are at a diplomatic cocktail party. I go up and

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Speaker 2: introduce myself, just like I'm going to introduce myself to

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Speaker 2: the other fifty people in the party. But you happen

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Speaker 2: to be from North Korea or China, or Russia or Cuba.

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Speaker 2: So you I'd like to get to know, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to invite you to lunch. So I'm assessing your

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Speaker 2: ability to have information that I would find useful, and

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Speaker 2: then I begin developing you. That's the fun part, actually,

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Speaker 2: and that's the longest part of this, where we're going

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Speaker 2: to start with lunch, and then in a year's time

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Speaker 2: or six months or twenty four months, or however long

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Speaker 2: it takes me, I'm going to make you my best friend.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to spend a ridiculous amount of money on you.

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Speaker 2: We're going to vacation together, our wives are going to

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Speaker 2: be friends, our children are going to play together, and eventually,

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Speaker 2: when the time feels right in my gut, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to ask you to commit espionage for me, treason maybe

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Speaker 2: in some cases, and you're going to do it. Maybe

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Speaker 2: because you think I'm great and you love me and

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Speaker 2: you love this friendship we've developed. Maybe it's for the money.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's because you've been passed over for promotion and

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Speaker 2: you want to get revenge against your boss. Maybe it's

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Speaker 2: because you just love the United States, because you love

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Speaker 2: these Hollywood movies and you want a piece of it.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe you're an adrenaline junkie and you just love

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Speaker 2: the excitement of the clandestinity. But for one reason or another,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna say yes to that pitch.

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Speaker 1: Does the SAI the organization profile these individuals for you.

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Speaker 1: They say, Ok, John, you're going to a cocktail party tonight.

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Speaker 1: There's a dude there from Cereal Career. Wherever the case

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Speaker 1: may be, We've already profiled this individual. He fits, he

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Speaker 1: fits in the profile some of these categories. Or are

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Speaker 1: you just randomly walking the room and sort of saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'll make fifty people leathers fifty people long

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Speaker 1: in a profile seeks target myself.

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Speaker 2: Nine times out of ten, you just go in cold

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Speaker 2: and you have a pocket full of business cards and

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Speaker 2: you just hand them out to everybody. Once in a while.

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Speaker 2: I can count twice in my career where headquarters set

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Speaker 2: me a cable and saying, there's this party at such

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Speaker 2: and such an embassy. We heard the North Koreans are

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Speaker 2: going to be there or the Russians are going to

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Speaker 2: be there, and so I say, okay, and then I

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Speaker 2: make sure that I go and I you know, in

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Speaker 2: one case, I actually did surveillance on the North Korean

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Speaker 2: for several days before the party, and I noticed that

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Speaker 2: he was literally going fishing every day after work so

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Speaker 2: that he could eat. Wow, And I thought, okay, well

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Speaker 2: if he doesn't, if he doesn't run screaming from the room,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to take him to a nice restaurant. I'm

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Speaker 2: sorry to say that he ran screaming from the room,

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Speaker 2: but not literally figuratively, so that went nowhere. But usually

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Speaker 2: you just go work the room. Hey how are you. Hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm John Kiriaku from the American Embassy, So nice to

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Speaker 2: see you. Oh what do you do for a living? Oh,

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Speaker 2: you work at the port. That sounds fascinating. What do

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Speaker 2: you do at the port? You know, whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: it's fascinating and I want to hear more about it.

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Speaker 1: So you've got to be good on the chat. I

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Speaker 1: mean you've got to be borid, something naturally you good at,

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Speaker 1: Like well, you always got a good on the chat. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know the sweet spots. You know with the sweet spots.

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Speaker 1: You know from their reactions you must have been Were

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Speaker 1: you trying to say, he's a bodily reaction that is

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Speaker 1: actually in your fiver and he's a bodily reaction which

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Speaker 1: is against your fiver? You know, body language type of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you get into all that sort of

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Speaker 1: secret techniques?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Sure. There is an enormous staff of psychiatrists, psychologists, sociologists,

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Speaker 2: and anthropologists at the CIA, enormous staff and so you're

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Speaker 2: well trained in what to look for and then what

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Speaker 2: to do once you've spotted what we call a vulnerability. Now,

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Speaker 2: a vulnerability doesn't necessarily have to be negative. Maybe your

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Speaker 2: vulnerability is you really really love your kids, and in

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Speaker 2: your country, whatever country you happen to be from, your

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Speaker 2: kids don't really have the kind of educational and economic

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Speaker 2: opportunities that they might have in the United States. So

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Speaker 2: if you want your kid to go to Harvard, done, Wow,

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Speaker 2: we can put your son or daughter in any university

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Speaker 2: in America, and if you give me two hours in

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Speaker 2: your code room, I'll pay for it, wow, said Naked. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Nine times out of ten. This is strictly a financial agreement.

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Speaker 2: You give me money, I'm sorry. You give me information,

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Speaker 2: I give you money. It's as simple as that.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about when you a postage

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Speaker 1: Athens in Greece and what you're doing there?

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Speaker 2: Sure, that was very specifically a counter terrorism position. There

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Speaker 2: were several groups. You know, It's funny. When I first

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Speaker 2: saw the position was open, it said this was for

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Speaker 2: a counter terrorism operations officer working against two Greek groups,

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Speaker 2: one called Revolutionary Organization seventeen November, the other called Popular

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Speaker 2: Revolutionary Struggle, but also working against Arab groups, most specifically

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Speaker 2: the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the PFLP

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Speaker 2: General Command and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine,

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Speaker 2: as well as the Abu Nidal organization and the Libyans.

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Speaker 2: They said that the successful candidate will have either Greek

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Speaker 2: or Arabic language fluency. As it turned out, I was

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Speaker 2: the only person in the CIA that was fluent in

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Speaker 2: both Greek and Arabic, and so I got the job.

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Speaker 2: It was just about then that communist Arab terrorism went away.

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Speaker 2: It just the PFLP and the DFLP and Abudi Dal.

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Speaker 2: They don't exist anymore. These were old men. They retired,

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Speaker 2: they moved to Damascus and they lived happily ever after.

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Speaker 2: The Greeks were out killing people all the time. They

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Speaker 2: killed the British Defense attache when I was there. They

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Speaker 2: had previously killed the American CIA station chief, two American

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Speaker 2: defense attaches, the Turkish ambassador, the Turkish Deputy Ambassador, the

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Speaker 2: Greek Minister of Finance, the Minister of Communications, the head

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Speaker 2: of the Central Bank. This was a terrible, terrible group.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And so my job was to work with the Greek

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Speaker 2: National Intelligence Service and the Greek National Police to try

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Speaker 2: to infiltrate these two groups and to destroy them from

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Speaker 2: the inside.

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Speaker 1: And what happened.

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Speaker 2: We stirred up a hornets nest and they murdered my

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Speaker 2: next door neighbor, the British Defense attatche, Stephen Saunders. I

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Speaker 2: liked Stephen very much. Stephen had a huge personality. We

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Speaker 2: used to joke that he was a media whore because

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Speaker 2: he just as soon as he saw a camera, he

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Speaker 2: would run right in front of it and say, would

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Speaker 2: anybody like an interview? I'm the British defense attache and

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Speaker 2: we would all laugh. One night, we were at a

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Speaker 2: party at the French Defense at Tache's house and I

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Speaker 2: had just gotten a new car that day that the

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Speaker 2: CIA had bought me. It was a level four armored

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Speaker 2: BMW five forty. It was the first five forty in Greece,

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Speaker 2: to the point where we couldn't even ensure it. We

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Speaker 2: had to insure it through a company in Germany because

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Speaker 2: I needed a big engine to carry all that armor.

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Speaker 2: And Stephen was making fun of me. We were standing.

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Speaker 2: It was Stephen, the French, the American at Tache and me,

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Speaker 2: and Stephen was making fun of me in a friendly way,

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Speaker 2: and he said, you Americans, you're so paranoid about security.

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Speaker 2: He says, this is an EU country, it's a NATO

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Speaker 2: cun tree. What are you so afraid of? And everybody chuckled,

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Speaker 2: and I said, you Brits live in a dream world

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Speaker 2: if you think that because they have pretty beaches and

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Speaker 2: palm trees, that they're not going to kill you if

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Speaker 2: they have the chance. Believe me, if they have the chance,

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Speaker 2: they're going to kill you. And then they killed him

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Speaker 2: as an assassination. They assassinated him in broad daylight on

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Speaker 2: the main road from our neighborhood to the British and

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Speaker 2: American embassies in April of two thousand. I was about

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Speaker 2: a quarter of a mile behind him when they killed him.

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Speaker 2: A taxi driver pulled him out of the car and

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Speaker 2: rushed him to a hospital. He died twenty minutes after

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Speaker 2: they got there seventeen November. Usually would drop a manifesto

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Speaker 2: at the sight of the hit. Sometimes they would put

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Speaker 2: it in a garbage can and call a leftist newspaper

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Speaker 2: and tell them where to find it. Rarely they would

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Speaker 2: mail it to the newspaper. They didn't leave a manifesto

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Speaker 2: when they killed Stephen. And so four months passed and

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Speaker 2: I went into work one day, like I did you

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Speaker 2: know every day? And my boss runs into my office

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Speaker 2: and he said, did you see the manifesto? I said,

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Speaker 2: what manifesto? He said, the Saunders manifesto. I said, they

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Speaker 2: didn't drop a manifesto. He said, no, they dropped it today.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen it? And I said no. He said,

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Speaker 2: they talk about you. And I said me, that's not possible.

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Speaker 2: I said, I've I've been so careful with my security.

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Speaker 2: I'm more careful than anybody I know. He shows me

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Speaker 2: the manifesto. It says in Greek eva meto megalo cartoskopos.

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Speaker 2: We saw the big spy, it says, but we we

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Speaker 2: knew he was armed, and he was driving an armored car,

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Speaker 2: and so we elected to carry out the revolutionary sentence

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Speaker 2: on the war criminals. Saunders whoa, And my boss said

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Speaker 2: you have to go yeah, I said, go where? He said,

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Speaker 2: you have to go home, like right now. I said,

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Speaker 2: I just took my kids to school. I can't just

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Speaker 2: go home now. He said, we'll pick up your kids,

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Speaker 2: we'll pick up your wife. You have to go now.

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Speaker 2: I went to the airport in an armored car. They

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Speaker 2: had an armored car pick up my two sons. And

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Speaker 2: my sons were little, they were like six and three,

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Speaker 2: and they picked up my wife. We got to the

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Speaker 2: airport and I said to her, I am so sorry,

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Speaker 2: and she said, I want a divorce. I'm not doing

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Speaker 2: this anymore.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So we flew to New York. She flew to Cleveland.

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Speaker 2: I flew to Washington and started working against seventeen November.

358
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Speaker 2: From headquarters. They lasted another like eighteen months one of

359
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,880
Speaker 2: the bomb makers was carrying a bomb to put under

360
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Speaker 2: the car of a Greek shipping magnet, and the bomb

361
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Speaker 2: went off and it blew his hands off, and it

362
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Speaker 2: blew his right eye out, and as he was bleeding

363
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Speaker 2: to death, he confessed to a police that he was

364
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: seventeen November. He gave the names of all of his

365
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: comrades and the location of their weapons cash, and then

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Speaker 2: the cop saved his life. And so the entire group

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Speaker 2: was destroyed in April of two thousand and two, and

368
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: most of them are still in prison. A couple of

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Speaker 2: them have done their time and have gotten out, but

370
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Speaker 2: the founder, the lead assassin, and the two lead bomb makers,

371
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Speaker 2: three lead bomb makers are doing sentences of one seven

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixty five years.

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Speaker 1: You with a target, in actual fact, did you ever

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Speaker 1: think to yourself? Is this worth it? I mean, is

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Speaker 1: my country worth it?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

377
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: Is my curiosity worth it? At that point? At that

378
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Speaker 1: point did you think that?

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00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 2: Yes? I did, And my solution, in my deluded state,

380
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 2: was to then divorce her and marry a CIA officer.

381
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Speaker 1: So that's what I did, And not long after this,

382
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,639
Speaker 1: we have none to eleven and of course no one

383
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: of them was tragic, but bigger news and probably anything

384
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Speaker 1: we've had in the last fifty years. And then you

385
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Speaker 1: got posted to where'd you get posted from?

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Speaker 2: There? Pakistan as the chief of CIA counter terrorism Operations. Wow,

387
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 2: it was the biggest job I ever had in my life.

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Speaker 1: That's a big deal. Yeah, that's a big job. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Where about some Pakistan.

390
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 2: Primarily in Islamabad, but wherever we needed to do the raid.

391
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: We went and did the raid. I saw the four

392
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Speaker 2: corners of Pakistan and everything in between, and there were

393
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 2: a lot of moving parts at the time. You know,

394
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 2: it wasn't just us operating in a bubble and trying

395
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Speaker 2: to you know, destroy al Qaeda. At the same time,

396
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 2: the White House is working with the CIA to come

397
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 2: up with what became a torture program, a rendition program,

398
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,239
Speaker 2: an archipelago of secret prisons all around the world, and

399
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 2: none of us had any idea that this was happening.

400
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: The first inkling that I got that something was up

401
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 2: was when the Pakistanis came to me one day. We

402
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 2: had had several weeks, several very successful weeks of counter

403
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 2: terrorism raids where we're just breaking down the door of

404
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: al Qaeda safe houses with battering rams and just grabbing everybody.

405
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: And the Packs came to me one day and said, listen,

406
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: the jail is full. You've got to do something with

407
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: all these guys. We can't just hold these guys indefinitely.

408
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 2: So I called CIA headquarters, the Counterterrorism Center, and I said,

409
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 2: the Packs came to me and said that the jail

410
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 2: is full. We were keeping everybody in the Rawal Pindi

411
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: jail outside of Islama Bud. They said, the jail's literally full,

412
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Speaker 2: and they want these guys out. What do you want

413
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 2: me to do with them? And they said, we want

414
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,439
Speaker 2: you to put them on a C twelve cargo plane,

415
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 2: a transport plane and send them to Guantanamo. And I

416
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: said Guantanamo Cuba and they said yes. I said, why

417
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: in the world would we send them to Cuba And

418
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: they said, and I thought this was a great idea.

419
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: We're going to keep them in Cuba for two or

420
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: three weeks until we can figure out which federal district

421
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: court to charge them with. The idea was that we

422
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 2: would charge all of them with terrorism or conspiracy or

423
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: providing material support for terrorism, and we would charge them

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Speaker 2: in Washington, New York, or Pennsylvania. Because that's where the

425
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 2: fourth plane went down. I said, that's a great idea.

426
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Speaker 2: Loaded everybody onto a series of C twelves, flew them

427
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: to Guantanamo. We put seven hundred and seventy people there

428
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 2: at one point. But then someone in Vice President Dick

429
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: Cheney's office observed, you know, they don't really have any

430
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: rights in Guantanamo. It's ours, we control it, but it's

431
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: not American territory, so they don't have any US legal

432
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: rights heights. Why don't we just keep them there forever?

433
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: And then that became the policy.

434
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: I presume that maybe you can help me out here,

435
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: but as a result of not have any ruts and

436
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: it's not being on US oil, you can pretty much

437
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: do to them whatever you want to do in order

438
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: to find out what a vision need to find out.

439
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 2: And that's where the big split came for me. I

440
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: did not yet know that there was a formal torture program.

441
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: I learned that in May of two thousand and two.

442
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: Torture actually began on August the second, two thousand and two.

443
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 2: But I remember saying to my boss, this is illegal.

444
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: This is clearly a violation of the Geneva Convention, and

445
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: it's a violation of US law as well. We shouldn't

446
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: be doing this, and he said, listen to me, because

447
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: I'm only going to say it once. He said, this

448
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: has already been worked out at a pay grade far

449
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: above yours or mine. We're not here to make these decisions.

450
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: We're here to do as we're told. And that didn't

451
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: sit right with me, so I went back to headquarters.

452
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: At the end of my tour in Pakistan May of

453
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, I was in the sandwich line

454
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: in the CIA cafeteria and one of the senior officers

455
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: from the counter Terrorism Center came up to me, very

456
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: casually and said, oh, hey, I'm so glad I ran

457
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: into you. I meant to ask you, do you want

458
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: to be certified in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques.

459
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: I had never heard that term before, and I said

460
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: enhanced interrogation. I said what does that mean? And he said,

461
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: we're going to start getting rough with these guys. I said, well,

462
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: what does that mean? And then he described these ten techniques,

463
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: everything from a smack across the face to waterboarding and

464
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: sleep deprivation and freezing freezing. They called it the cold cell.

465
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: I can describe it in a moment. I said, that

466
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 2: sounds like a torture program. He said, it's not torture.

467
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: The President approved it, and the Justice Department said we

468
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: can do it. And I said, ah, give me an hour.

469
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: I need to think about this. I walked out of

470
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: the cafeteria. I went up to the seventh floor of

471
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: the CIA, that's the executive floor, and I asked a

472
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: very very senior official for whom I had worked in

473
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: the Middle East ten years earlier, for some advice. I

474
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: knocked on his door. No appointment, and I said, listen.

475
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: I was just approached and asked if I wanted to

476
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: be trained in these enhanced interrogation techniques, what do you

477
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: think of that? And he said, first of all, let's

478
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: call a spade a spade. They can use whatever euphemism

479
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: they want. This is a torture program, and tortures a

480
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 2: slippery slope. And you know how these guys are. Some

481
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: of them are cowboys, and somebody's going to kill a prisoner,

482
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 2: and then there's going to be a congressional investigation and

483
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: then a Justice Department investigation, and somebody's going to go

484
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: to prison. Do you want to go to prison? And

485
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: I said no, I don't want to go to prison.

486
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 2: As it turned out, I was the only person who

487
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: went to prison. But I went back downstairs and I said,

488
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: this is a torture program. I have a moral and

489
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: ethical problem with it. I think it's illegal, and I

490
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: don't want to have anything to do with it. And

491
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: so they cut me out, which was fine. I preferred

492
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 2: to not know anything. I preferred to not be read

493
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: into the program. But then, on the strength of my

494
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: work in Pakistan, I was promoted and I was named

495
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: the executive assistant to the CIA's deputy director. And in

496
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: that position, I had access to literally everything that the

497
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: CIA was doing around the world. And it was on

498
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: August second that we began torturing Abu Zubeta, who was

499
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: the first high value prisoner that we had. I led

500
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: his capture in feis a Labad, Pakistan in March March

501
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: twenty eighth, and.

502
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: He was shot. He got shot prior to that, prior

503
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: to his interrogation.

504
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was standing on a coffee table

505
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: in the safe house with sixty people arrayed in front

506
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: of me, and I said, listen, the orders are to

507
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: take them alive, do not shoot them. And of course

508
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: as soon as the proverbial shit hits the fan, a

509
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: Pakistani policeman just opens fire and shoots him three times

510
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: with an AK forty seven and the thigh, the groin

511
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: and the stomach, and yeah, the rest is history, and your.

512
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: Objection to him being interrogated. Where did it end up

513
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: with you? Where did it end up putting you?

514
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: Well? In the immediate term, I was passed over for promotion,

515
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: which was kind of funny to me because I had

516
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: just captured with these two hands the number three in

517
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: al Qaeda, and in my promotion panel, the chief of

518
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: counter Terrorism said exact words, I had displayed a shocking

519
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: lack of commitment to counter terrorism. Whoa well. The deputy

520
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: director then promoted me just with the stroke of his pen,

521
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: so no big deal. But then a friend of mine

522
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: at the agency who happened to be he happened to

523
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: be a lot of things. We go to the same church,

524
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: we were in the same men's group. He happens to

525
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: be a psychiatrist, and he happens to also be a

526
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: brigadier general in the US Army. He's a CIA psychiatrist.

527
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: He came up to me and he said, hey, buddy,

528
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: I got to tell you. You know they call you

529
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: the human rights guy behind your back and I said, yeah,

530
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: I know, I've heard that. And he said, you know

531
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: that's not a compliment. And I said, Steve, I'm on

532
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: the right side of this, they're not. I said, I'm

533
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: not going to change my point of view just because

534
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: they say something behind my back. And I kept that

535
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: up for another couple of years. I did another tour

536
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: and then sided, listen, I have five children. I need

537
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: to put them through college. I have to start making

538
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: some real money. So I resigned from the CIA, went

539
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: into the private sector and in the private sector, and

540
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: this is changed the course of the rest of my life.

541
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: I got a call from Brian Ross, a very prominent

542
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: journalist with ABC News in the United States, a seven

543
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: time Emmy Award winner, and he said that he had

544
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: a source who said that I had tortured Abu Zebta.

545
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: I said that was absolutely untrue. I was the only

546
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: person who was kind to Abu Zubeta. And he said, well,

547
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: you're welcome to come on the show and defend yourself.

548
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: I had no idea that was a reporter's trick because

549
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: I had never spoken to a reporter before. And so

550
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: I said I'd think about it. Well. That was on

551
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: a Monday. On Wednesday, President Bush gave a press conference

552
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: and one of the reporters there asked him about these

553
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: rumors that the CIA was torturing prisoners, and he looked

554
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: right in the camera and he said, we do not torture.

555
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: And I said to my wife, who was a senior

556
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: CIA officer, I said, he's a bald faced liar. He's

557
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: looking the American people right in the eye and he's

558
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: just lying to us. Two days later was Friday. The

559
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: President leaves the White House from the South portico, the

560
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: back door of the White House, and he's walking to

561
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: the presidential helicopter to go to Camp David for the weekend,

562
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: and a reporter shouts a question about torture and the CIA,

563
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: and he stops and he turns and he says, well,

564
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: if there is torture, it's because of a rogue CIA officer.

565
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: And I said to my wife, Brian Ross's sources at

566
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: the White House, and they're going to pin this on me.

567
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: So I called Brian Ross and I said, I'll give

568
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: you your interview. And I decided that no matter what

569
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: he asked, I was simply going to tell the truth,

570
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: and I'm proud to say I brought down torture in

571
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: the United States. John McCain, God bless his soul. I

572
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: probably disagreed with John McCain on ninety nine percent of

573
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: the issues, but he became my champion in the US Senate,

574
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: and he wrote what became the McCain Feinstein Amendment banning torture.

575
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: And then while I was at prison, I was incarcerated,

576
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: he not only spoke on the floor of the Senate

577
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: urging the President to pardon me and release me, but

578
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: he gave a speech on the floor of the Senate

579
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: saying that the country owed me a debt of gratitude

580
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: because without my revelations, the American people would not have

581
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 2: had any idea what the CIA was doing in their name,

582
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: the carrying out this abomination. And so I did my

583
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: twenty three months. I came out and I'll tell you

584
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: one funny thing I was on this British show. The

585
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: first interview I gave I gave when I got out

586
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 2: on the BBC. What's it called cross Talk Crossfire, I

587
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: forget the name of it. It's very popular.

588
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know the show, I've done it, but

589
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: I know the show the guy there's one guy who

590
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: asked the questions.

591
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 2: One guy who asks the questions, and he comes out swinging.

592
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: So he asked me a couple of very provocative, very

593
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: mean spirited questions, and I answered them just like I'm

594
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: speaking to you now. And finally he grew a little frustrated,

595
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: and he said, you know you are not showing any

596
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: contrition at all. You have not apologized for your crime.

597
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: You haven't said anything about about having revealed this classified information.

598
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: And I said contrition. I'm not contrite. I'm not apologizing.

599
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: I would do it again today if I had the opportunity.

600
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not afraid of these people. I took

601
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: their best shut and I came out stronger on the

602
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: other end, and I said again the same thing that

603
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: I said earlier. I said, I am on the right

604
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: side of history, and they are not. When their obituaries

605
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 2: are written, the obituaries are going to say that there

606
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: were war criminals.

607
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: It's a very interesting mindset, John, Like, I just wonder

608
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: that you know the the process for governments and organizations,

609
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: for example, like the CIA and others, to carry out

610
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: torture in order to get information or data would be

611
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: probably justified on they would say, justified on the basis

612
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: that we are condemning one person to pain and torture

613
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: in order to protect a whole lot of people. Then

614
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 1: on the flip side of it, some of like John Kiriaku,

615
00:35:55,040 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: is saying, I will not compromise my personal principles in

616
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: order to reach that achievement. How is this? Did you

617
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: ever go through a process where you had to try

618
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: to reconcile those two completely opposite processes? You know, one

619
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: is for country, I'll do whatever it takes for me

620
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: to protect my country and the people in it. Versus no,

621
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: I will not cross a line when it comes to

622
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: my principle is relative to an individual being tortured, for example,

623
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: because that's just wrong. How did you ever see a

624
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: reconciliation of that?

625
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: Is that?

626
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: Will we ever have a reconciliation of those two principles?

627
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: You know what I didn't. I did not struggle with that.

628
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: I'm glad that you brought it up, because I think

629
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: this is a very important point. I did not have

630
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: that internal struggle because it has been proven time and

631
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: time again, after years and years of research, that torture

632
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: simply doesn't work. Now, there was a real reason why

633
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: we were torturing, and that was really I understand that

634
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: I disagree with it, but I understand, But don't torture

635
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: and then pretend that you're doing it because there's a

636
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: ticking time bomb somewhere and you're trying to prevent the

637
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: next attack. You're not trying to prevent the next attack.

638
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 2: Nine to eleven was the greatest intelligence failure in American history,

639
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: far worse than the attack on Pearl Harbor in nineteen

640
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: forty one, and it was because the CIA was asleep

641
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: at the switch. The deaths of three thousand Americans in

642
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: one day was on us because we didn't do our jobs.

643
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: So I get that these guys wanted revenge. That doesn't

644
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: make it right. But then to pretend that you have

645
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: to do these torture techniques because well, the next attack

646
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: could be worse and we need to disrupt the next attack.

647
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: Come on, We're not stupid. And so I never bought it,

648
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: never never bought it.

649
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: Do you mind if I just tell me, if I

650
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: asking questions that are inappropriate of you given your past,

651
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: and you know you're you know you've got to look

652
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: after your family. But if we could just move to

653
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: Iran at the moment, and what's going on with Iran,

654
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: and you know, Trump's view on it, and also Israel's

655
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: view on it, and probably the view of some other countries,

656
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: but not the majority, it seems, particularly when it comes

657
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: to NATO type countries and Australia for that matter, What

658
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: do you think of what's going on there? Because the

659
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: question is becomes was Iran a proper nuclear threat relative

660
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: to what you know, your equivalent what is now spies

661
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: and what the intelligence community was finding out about Iran.

662
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: Do you have any views on this?

663
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: I do. They're not going to be popular with the

664
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: current occupant of the White House, but this was a

665
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 2: war of choice, and it was a war that we

666
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: chose to participate in after being browbeaten by Benjamin Attanyahu

667
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: and his extremest right wing government. You know, it was

668
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: my experience at the CIA where literally every Israeli Prime

669
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: minister since the nineteen eighties would come to Washington, which

670
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: they do all the time, and no matter who happened

671
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 2: to be in the White House, they would say, please

672
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: bomb Iran, Please bomb Iran, Please bomb Iran. And every

673
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 2: president would say, We're not going to do that until

674
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 2: this president Now, the CIA published two, not one, two

675
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: national intelligence estimates, which are the highest level sense of

676
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: the intelligence community publication that exists, saying that Iran did

677
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: not have a nuclear weapons program. Not only that, but

678
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: Ayatola Kamanai had issued a fatwa back in the eighties

679
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 2: forbidding the creation of a nuclear weapons program. They were

680
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: certainly enriching uranium, but not up to anything near weapons

681
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: grade levels. I understand, I get it that Iran is

682
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: this existential threat to the Israelis. But Israeli national interests

683
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: don't necessarily coincide with American national interests, and I want

684
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: my government to represent American national interests. If the Israelis

685
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 2: have a problem with Iran, that's for the Israelis to

686
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: deal with. But the intelligence was very clear that Iran

687
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: did not have a nuclear weapons program. Okay, just for

688
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt, let's pretend that they did

689
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: have a nuclear weapons program. President Trump said in October

690
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: that the US Air Force had obliterated it with a

691
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: thirty thousand pound bunker buster bomb, a moab, the mother

692
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: of all bombs. We had obliterated it, and then like magic,

693
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: four weeks ago. There's six weeks away from building a

694
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 2: bomb again, Well, they were six weeks away from building

695
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: a bomb in nineteen eighty six and still there was

696
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: no bomb. So I think it's high time that we

697
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: start acting in the best interests of the United States

698
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 2: rather than in the best interests of Israel. And frankly,

699
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: I don't think attacking Iran was in the best interests

700
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: of Israel either.

701
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: I mean, no, I have no idea. But do you

702
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: really take the view, will really believe that Benjaminetta, who

703
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: has the ability to manipulate Donald Trump? I mean, I

704
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: know Trump many months or twice, but I don't I

705
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: don't understand whether he could be manipulated.

706
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I believe that very strongly. Not because Trump

707
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: is weak. I don't think Trump is weak. I think

708
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: he's actually very strong. But because of the construct of

709
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 2: the American political system. You know, politics run on money,

710
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 2: and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee APAK is incredibly

711
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: well funded, and they will run candidates against you if

712
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: you are not one hundred percent pro Israel, and five

713
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 2: times out of six at least in the in the

714
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: last election, they would win those races. And so would

715
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: you rather take would you rather take one hundred and

716
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars for your campaign from wealthy donors and

717
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 2: toe the Israeli line, or do you want to risk

718
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: having them run a candidate against you and then not

719
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: winning re election. Most American politicians fall into line. You know,

720
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: these ideas finally came to a head during the presidency

721
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 2: of someone who could be pressured by Benjamin Antonia, who

722
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: where previous presidents couldn't, and now we're in this war.

723
00:42:53,680 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: Doesn't within the USA organization, which must have unbelievably vast assets,

724
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 1: don't all those things, all those the doctor and information

725
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: from those assets filter up the line to the president

726
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: and or he's most senior advisers say hey, hey, pres

727
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: we're gonna make a mistake here. Let's be careful. I mean,

728
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: how does that work? I mean, how do those two

729
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: things sort of interact.

730
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: I'll give you two answers. The first one, the easy one.

731
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 2: Is a reporter for the Wall Street Journal asked President

732
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: Trump two weeks ago, who is your closest advisor on

733
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: these politico military issues? And his answer was, I don't

734
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: have an advisor. I just trust my gut. That is very,

735
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 2: very dangerous. You need a team of rivals. You need

736
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 2: the best and the brightest. You need to surround yourself

737
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 2: with the smartest thinkers on these issues, and he hasn't

738
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: done that. That's answer number one. Answer number two is,

739
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 2: over the course of decades, the CIA has been demonstrably

740
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: weak in developing human intelligence inside Iran. It's what we

741
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 2: call a denied area, where we can't just walk out

742
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 2: of the American embassy in Tehran and you know, target

743
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: some Iranian government official for recruitment, because there is no

744
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: American embassy in Iran and there hasn't been since nineteen

745
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: seventy nine, and so we rely on liaison services, which

746
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: really means Mosad. Now, if there's one thing Mosad's really

747
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: really great at, it's targeting intelligence because they'll recruit every

748
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: Afghan refugee in the country and give them ten dollars

749
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: a month to just tell them where the generals live,

750
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: where the nuclear scientists live, so they know where to

751
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: target the cruise missiles. On the other hand, the intelligence

752
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 2: that they get on the day to day operation of

753
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: the Iranian government, on the policies of the Iranian government

754
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 2: largely come from Iranian Jews who live in the West,

755
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 2: or from the Mujahadina Hulk the MEK, which until the

756
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: Obama administration was was a terrorist group listed on the

757
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 2: State Department's list of International Terrorist Groups, which had murdered

758
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 2: an American ambassador in Tehran in the seventies and attempted

759
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: to murder an American general in the seventies. But now

760
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: we're friends with them because they hate the Iranians and

761
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: they're taking Israeli funding. Well, the Majaidina e Hulk has

762
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: a vested interest in the United States going to war

763
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: in Iran because they want to lead Iran. And so

764
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: you know, we got ourselves into this with bad intelligence

765
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: and bad policy and no exit strategy. One final point,

766
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 2: the president, it was my experience at the CIA that

767
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: the people who most wanted to stay out of war

768
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 2: were the members of the Joint chiefs of Staff at

769
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: the Pentagon. Those people who have seen war are the

770
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 2: least likely to want to go fight it again. And

771
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: so what President Tump Trump did over the last year

772
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: was he fired all the generals on the on the

773
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: Joint chiefs of Staff and replaced them with his own

774
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: hand picked people who were perfectly happy to accept Israeli

775
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: intelligence and go to war in Iran.

776
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: So like now now we've got a big problem. I mean, yeah,

777
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 1: we're feeling it here Australia, of course, because report eighty

778
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: percent of our petrol and oil and etcetera. You guys

779
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: are a lot more self sustaining. But how do we

780
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: say the end of this? I mean, what's his why out?

781
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to give you two answers. My own personal

782
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: answer is, having watched President Trump all these years, I

783
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 2: think that we're going to wake up one morning and

784
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: we're going to see a posting on truth so in

785
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 2: which he just announces that we won. The War's over,

786
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: we won. I'm bringing the troops home. We're going to

787
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: have a big military parade on Constitution Avenue. Congratulations to

788
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: our victorious heroes in the military. Thank you for your

789
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: attention to this matter. Donald J. Trump, President of the

790
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: United States. I really believe that he's just going to

791
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 2: declare victory and come home. But I was at a

792
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: dinner last week with several professors, full professors who are

793
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 2: also part time advisors paid advisors to the Pentagon leadership,

794
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: and they are genuinely concerned that the Israelis are going

795
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 2: to use a nuclear weapon. Whoa that you know that

796
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 2: the Iranians the Iranians have proven to be far tougher

797
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: than anybody expected, anybody who's you know, blind, deaf and

798
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 2: dumb anyway, And they really believed that the Iranian government

799
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 2: was a house of cards, where as soon as we

800
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 2: fired the first rocket, the whole thing would collapse. These

801
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: democrats would rise up and everybody would live happily ever after.

802
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: And that hasn't happened. And not only has that not happened,

803
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 2: but the iron Dome hasn't been so iron after all.

804
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 2: Just this weekend, the Iranians were able to bomb Demona,

805
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: which is where the Israelis enrich their own uranium for

806
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: their own nuclear weapons, which apparently we can neither confirm

807
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: nor deny the existence of Israelis are being killed. We

808
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: have no idea how many, because it's now a crime

809
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: punishable by up to ten years in prison if you

810
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: reveal any bomb damage assessment information, including the number of

811
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: Israeli casualties. So how do we get out of this?

812
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 2: If we decide just to come home, where does that

813
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: leave the Israelis? It leaves the Israelis standing alone, and

814
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: they can't abide that. And so these professors believe that

815
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: there's this real danger of the Israelis finally using a

816
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: nuclear weapon.

817
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: I think what the professors are saying is that if

818
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: US pulls out, Israel can't be sort of standing there

819
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: naked in the region on its own, So it's got

820
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: to do something that sort of completes the mission, and

821
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: doing something that's quite devastating.

822
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: I think that's it right there.

823
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: There is some logic associated with that. I'm not saying

824
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: there's no ethics associated with it, but there's definitely some

825
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: logic associated with that process. What happened. I mean, you're

826
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 1: someone who's been living in this world for a long time.

827
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: You know when something seems far fetched or something you know,

828
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 1: maybe close to reality, does your heart skip a beat

829
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: when you hear something like that.

830
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: I was shocked when I heard it, To tell you

831
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: the truth, because I respect these guys. I've known them

832
00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: for decades, and these are serious thinkers. But they were

833
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 2: adamant that nuclear weapons are the final taboo, and that

834
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 2: part of the Israeli calculation is if they break that taboo,

835
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: it'll free up other countries to use nuclear weapons, which

836
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 2: might not be a bad thing. And I said, how

837
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: is using a nuclear weapon not a bad thing? And

838
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: the response was fascinating. One of them said to me,

839
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 2: we're not talking about North Korea in this conversation. Do

840
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 2: you know why? Because North Korea has a nuclear weapon,

841
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: so nobody is going to mess with North Korea. The

842
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 2: only reason that the United States and Israel attacked Iran

843
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: is because they didn't yet have a nuclear weapon. If

844
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: they had, there would have been no war because that

845
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 2: would have been the deterrent.

846
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: Wow, that makes sense. Yeah, does that makes a lot

847
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: of sense another way. But the very reason why they

848
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: were justifying attacking Iran is because they thought they might

849
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: have nuclear capability, But in fact the opposite applies, because

850
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: they did not have capability. They were attacked exactly. But

851
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: what do you think this means for people like you know,

852
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: like Putin sitting back watching this, you know, Presidency sitting

853
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: back watching this. Countries who do have nuclear weapons. What

854
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 1: do you think that they might if if, for example,

855
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: Israel did drop a nuclear bomb on a nuclear weapon

856
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: on Iran? What are those other countries going to think

857
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 1: to themselves, it's now Would they think to themselves it's

858
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: now okay to do the same.

859
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely not, because at that point they've won that The

860
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 2: United States, the United States already is the only country

861
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 2: in the history of the planet to use a nuclear weapon,

862
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: and we've done it twice. If we did it a

863
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: third time, or allowed the Israelis to do it, I

864
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 2: mean that that's going to be the end of the

865
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 2: American Empire. It really would be. We have a satirical

866
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 2: people here in the United States called the UN in

867
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: very funny newspaper, and they had a headline last week

868
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 2: Chinee is happy to sit back and watch us destroy itself.

869
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: And that's really I think what we're seeing right now.

870
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 1: We have you. In our country, we have two groups

871
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: who are, let's say, the equivalent to with the organization

872
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: you work for CIA. One's called a z oh and

873
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: the other one's called Asis. And in our country they're

874
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: extraordinarily secretive. No one I've never met anyone who works

875
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: for him. We don't hear much about him. Every now

876
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: and then the head will come out and say, make

877
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: a few statements about terrorism in Australia or the the

878
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: you know, the bubbling up of terrorism in Australia. And

879
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: of course we had recently had a problem in Bondai,

880
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 1: which you would have heard about. What experience did you

881
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,479
Speaker 1: ever have with our Australian intelligence community, if at any at.

882
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: All, almost none. Of course, Australia is a member of

883
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: five Eyes like the United States is, along with Canada,

884
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: the UK and New Zealand. You know, I never visited

885
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 2: Australia while I was with the CIA. Never came a

886
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 2: single time. I can count my meetings with Australian intelligence

887
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: officials on these two fingers over the course of a

888
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: fifteen year career. But you know, it was always my

889
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 2: understanding that the Australians were far more interested in China, yeah,

890
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: than they were in the area where I was, whether

891
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: it was you know, European it's quaint now, but European

892
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: communist terrorism or the Middle East. I just never really

893
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: encountered them.

894
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: But do you think that Australia needs to aim up

895
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: a bit more because you know, we get a lot

896
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 1: of criticism around the world, rightly or wrongly, to say

897
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: that we don't spend enough money on our defense. You know.

898
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: And by the way, you know this five percent of

899
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: GDP sort of formula, and that's floating around the world.

900
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: We spend nowhere near that. Yeah, we spent nowhere near

901
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: that in Australia. Do you have any advice for Australians

902
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: or we should be thinking about and Josebell government.

903
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 2: If I were in a position where my opinion actually

904
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: had some heft behind it, I would say ignore this

905
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 2: five percent number. It's economically untenable over the long term.

906
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. When President Trump was in his

907
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: first term, there was only one country in NATO besides

908
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 2: the United States that spent two percent of GDP on defense.

909
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: That was Greece because they're petrified of Turkey. Now we've

910
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 2: got this five percent number floating around here in the

911
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 2: United States. We have a thirty two trillion dollar trillion

912
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 2: with a t trillion dollar national debt. The Chinese own

913
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 2: a plurality of that debt, and so we just keep

914
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 2: selling the Chinese more long term government bonds. If they

915
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 2: really wanted to just come completely collapse the economy, they

916
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 2: would just sell sell the bonds and and for all

917
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 2: intents and purposes, the American economy would cease to exist.

918
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: So over the long term, I just think that no

919
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,720
Speaker 2: country is able to keep this this up. Australia should

920
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 2: do what's right for Australia, regardless of of American political pressure.

921
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: And you know, Australia is also blessed like the United

922
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 2: States is with with oceans, and so we we have

923
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 2: oceans that help to protect us. Now listen, I'm not

924
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 2: I'm not a knaife. I understand that that you know,

925
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: China is a strategic threat, that North Korea might be

926
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: a strategic threat. That Australia is going to have to

927
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: work with Japan and South Korea and the Philippines and

928
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: Thailand and others to to you know, make the South

929
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 2: Pacific as as safe as possible. But it's not the

930
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 2: Chinese who have a history of hegemony in the region.

931
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: They just don't the Chinese, you know, except for Tibet

932
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 2: aside and a handful of little border skirmishes with the

933
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 2: Indians and the Vietnamese, the Chinese don't invade other countries.

934
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 2: The United States invades other countries.

935
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: What about Taiwan.

936
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the Chinese really believe that Taiwan

937
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 2: will someday be reunited with the mainland. But I think

938
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 2: the Chinese are the Chinese have a very long view.

939
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 2: It's a five thousand year old civilization. I think that

940
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 2: they are willing to willing to look at this like

941
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 2: the Hong Kong model rather than you know, the invasion

942
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 2: and occupation model. It just doesn't make sense for them

943
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: to do.

944
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,760
Speaker 1: It's interesting that when you look at the various news

945
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: media's not so much here in Australia, our local ones,

946
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,720
Speaker 1: but you know we also watch you know, San Anne Fox,

947
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: blah blah, all the rest of them, at least I

948
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: do here in Australia. We tend to get hyped up

949
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: by media, and media tends to lead us down a path.

950
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: It's like it's their agenda. It's not a real agenda.

951
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: It's their agenda. They want us to believe that, and

952
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: it's nearly like they know who does believe that. Therefore

953
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: they feed us more and more. It's nearly like they're

954
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: doing data. They're nearly profiling us like you used to

955
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: profile your potential recruits. They're profiling us as potential recruits

956
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: to watch their show, and they want to retain us,

957
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: so they keep feeding us the same stuff over and

958
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: over again, and every now and then I've got to

959
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: give myself an uppercut and say, Mark, what are you doing?

960
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 1: Turn the channel, watch the other side, watch the other view,

961
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 1: and then the other view. Though, by the way, is

962
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: the opposite view. But it's just filling me up with

963
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: the opposite views. It's not giving me both sides of

964
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: the both sides of the argument. Are we being led

965
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: down a garden path by our media outlets today? Because

966
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: it seems to be more divided than I've ever seen

967
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: before as politics is. Are we being led down the

968
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: garden path by our media?

969
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: I think we are. I struggle with the same things.

970
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 2: Mark It's people ask me all the time, where do

971
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: you get your news? And the answer and I hate

972
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 2: to say it, but is I get it everywhere? Because

973
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: you can't trust just one or even two or even

974
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: five outlets. You have to get it from everywhere and

975
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 2: then immerse yourself in the information to the point where

976
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: you can make an educated analytic conclusion. So I start

977
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 2: off with the Washington Post, the New York Times, the

978
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 2: La Times, the Times of London, and Wall Street Journal,

979
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: my hometown paper, just for the sports. And then I

980
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 2: go to Associated Press, CNN, MSNBC, Fox, then Al Jazeera.

981
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 2: I do a couple of the smaller Middle Eastern outlets,

982
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 2: But your hours every day just immersing yourself in the news,

983
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 2: hoping to get bits and pieces. I do the Jerusalem

984
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: Post and Haaretz every morning. I have subscriptions to both.

985
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: You can't trust anyone outlet. You have to trust in

986
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 2: yourself and then trust in your ability to make that

987
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: analysis makes sense in your own position.

988
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: But most of us don't have that analyst training like

989
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: you do, and probably maybe we don't have time, and

990
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: we probably can't speak the languages of some of these outlets.

991
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: And therefore, which is why, by the way, I got

992
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: quite excited when we have the opportunity to interview you,

993
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: because you bring to the table not only your analytical views,

994
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 1: but you're also being bringing strong views with experience sitting

995
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: behind it and give us us here in Australia at

996
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: least perspective about someone who's been in the scrum in

997
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: the scramble like you literally have been in there and

998
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: come out the other end still life. That's really important

999
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: to Australian audience. And you know, we've got a big

1000
00:59:54,520 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: audience who love listening to this, but most of us struggle. Yeah,

1001
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: do you think that for the future we perhaps should

1002
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: stop listening to media outlets and just maybe take no

1003
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: view and just live our lives and just assume everything's

1004
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: going to be okay, or is that dangerous because we're

1005
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: then handing ourselves over to our politicians and or the system,

1006
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: which you know, you know how it can work against you.

1007
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: That then then it's it's it's a problem. It's a

1008
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: bit of a quandary. I don't know which way to go.

1009
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: What would you.

1010
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 2: Say, it is a quandary. What I what I've done

1011
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 2: for a few years now is I've I've begun following

1012
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 2: people I respect on Twitter x and relying on them

1013
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: to give me the news that they think is important.

1014
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 2: So I'm getting the whole mainstream view from the mainstream outlets.

1015
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: But then I know, for example, that Alexander mccuriz at

1016
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 2: the Duran knows everything that's happening in Ukraine, for example,

1017
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 2: or that Max Blumenthal at the Grey Zone knows everything

1018
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: that's happening in Iran. Right now, I have some friends

1019
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 2: who cover Latin America and I trust them. I know

1020
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 2: how honest they are and what great analysts they are.

1021
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 2: So maybe maybe one of the things that you can do,

1022
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 2: or that any anybody can do, is to identify people

1023
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: who really are seeking the truth without a political agenda

1024
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 2: and follow them.

1025
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: So maybe you could just mention those times again so

1026
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 1: we talked about X. Give me someone who you would

1027
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 1: look at in relation to say Middle East.

1028
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 2: Oh, Max, Max Blumenthal or Aaron Mattey, m ate, they're

1029
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 2: both terrific writers and analysts, just excellent. Gideon Levy at

1030
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 2: Haretz in Israel is one of the clearest thinkers on

1031
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 2: these issues that I've ever encountered, and is not afraid

1032
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 2: of his own government. He just wants the truth of

1033
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: a story. He's fantastic. I do follow Al Jazera just

1034
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 2: because I know so many of them met Ol Jazeera

1035
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 2: and you can't rely on them for news about the

1036
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 2: golf because they're owned by the government of cutter But

1037
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 2: on the Arab Israeli dispute, they're terrific.

1038
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I've been watching a good friend of mine

1039
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: who I walk with every weekend. He's an older gentleman,

1040
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 1: and he and I were talking about this on the

1041
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 1: weekend and both of us concluded that we no longer

1042
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: just watch Fox. We also now turn to CNN, and

1043
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: we no longer just watch CNN, We now go to

1044
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: ol Jazeerra. Yeah, I just want to go back to

1045
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: one point. They just go right back. John Kiriaku absolutely

1046
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: besotted with what was going in the Middle East. Young

1047
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 1: young want to be a spy, got the opportunity to

1048
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: do that, was not only curious, but wanted to try

1049
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: and solve things through. Being a great analyst has some

1050
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: great outcomes when you were young, enthusiastic, curious, energetic, and

1051
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: at that stage not let's call it not poisoned or

1052
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: tormented by what was actually going on. In ethical sense,

1053
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: what do you how do you feel reckoned? How do

1054
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: you reconcile the John Kireko today with that particular person.

1055
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 2: I've changed dramatically in the intervening years, not just because

1056
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 2: I'm so much older and more worldly, more mature, but

1057
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 2: my core, my core beliefs about my own government have changed.

1058
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 2: You know. I used to think that it was just

1059
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: so easy, so clear. There are good guys and bad guys,

1060
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: and we're the good guys, and that's just not Life

1061
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 2: is not that clear cut. It's not that simple. And

1062
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: I've also come around on the idea of foreign interventions.

1063
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 2: I made my bones at the CIA with the Iraqi

1064
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: invasion and occupation of Kuwait, and I went into Kuwait

1065
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 2: City with Marines on liberation Day, February seventeenth, nineteen ninety one.

1066
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:14,919
Speaker 2: It was formative for me. But then you know, when

1067
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: we attacked Iraq in two thousand and three, that's when

1068
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 2: I really began my transformation. That was a war of choice.

1069
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 2: We all knew that the Iraqi government had literally nothing

1070
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 2: to do with nine to eleven, literally nothing that was

1071
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 2: a lie that was being fed to the American people.

1072
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 2: We knew that the Iraqis had no weapons of mass destruction.

1073
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 2: I sat in on the meetings where the analysts were

1074
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 2: practically killing each other. The Department of Energy said, yes,

1075
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: there are there are weapons of mass destruction chemical weapons,

1076
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 2: and the CIA said, no, there are none. There were none.

1077
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: We knew there were none, and so I began to

1078
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 2: change my point of view in two thousand and two.

1079
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 2: It really changed by two thousand and three, and now

1080
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 2: I can't even think of a righteous war that's taking

1081
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: place anywhere in the world right now.

1082
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 1: Wow, this has been an amazing conversation. And I want

1083
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 1: to say to you, look, CALLISTULLI, thank you very much.

1084
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 1: Who Kali Tiki s sna and pieces pieces. Basically, I

1085
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: said good luck to you, and you know I want

1086
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: you to I wish him many years. In other words,

1087
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, the best for him for the future. And

1088
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: I appreciate your I really appreciate your honest seeing you,

1089
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: your straightforwardness and uh and I dare say our audience

1090
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: is going to love this.

1091
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 2: But thanks very much, thank you so much, Thanks for

1092
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 2: the opportunity. It's great to meet you.