WEBVTT - On the Frontline of Australia’s Black Summer 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.360 We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.800 on which this podcast was produced, the Galligle people of 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.440 the Urination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:15.440 It's December twenty nineteen and we're in the Blue Mountains, 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:20.160 just outside Sydney. At this time of year, tourists usually 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.959 flock here for the stunning scenery and well renowned bushwalks. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:31.040 But this summer is different. This is black summer. Across 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:36.520 the country, seventeen million hectares of land are burning. That's 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:41.040 almost the size of France. The fires have been raging 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.599 for months and there's no end in sight. Greg Mullins 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:49.240 has dedicated his life to fighting fires, and he's doing 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:53.360 his best to help the residents, wildlife and homes under threat. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.560 It's midnight and he stares up at the fifty meter 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:03.160 high wall of flames. He's been here for sixteen hours today, 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.679 his uniform is charred. His mind starts to play tricks 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.040 on him. Deep down, he knows that the rain will 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.880 come one day, this will be over. But what if 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.160 it doesn't end. What if it just keeps burning until 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:25.319 next summer, until there's nothing left to burn. I'm at 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.639 Middleton and this is head game today on the front 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:39.399 line in one of the nation's most catastrophic bushfires. Now 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:45.120 I'm super excited. I have the firefighter Extraordinary Greg Mullins 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.680 in studio with me. Now, Greg, after your name, you 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:56.520 have multiple initials, so it goes Alpha, Oscar, Alpha, Foxtrot, Sierra, Mike, 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:02.520 so af s M. Could you just break that down 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.080 for me, mate, because I know you're someone super important 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:06.600 when you've got all of those initiative. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:12.000 Yeah, lots of letters. Yeah. AO is an Officer of 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.320 the Order of Australia, So it's the Australian honors system. 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.960 That's the second highest one. And the a SM is 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:23.200 the Australian Fire Service Medal, So that's that's I don't 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.119 know how many years. There's not that many a year 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.560 given out Australia wide to people in the fire services. 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:34.639 So I got it right, Firefighter extraordinary. Now, fascinating career. 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.240 But where did it all start for you? Mate? When 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.480 did the did you think to yourself, right, I'm going 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.960 to become a firefighter. This is what I want to do. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.799 Your father was a volunteer firefighter. Did it all stem 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:48.280 from him? 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.400 Oh? Look, pretty much. We lived in an area in 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:56.639 the north of Sydney, beautiful area but surrounded by National Park, 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.839 and every summer there were fires and you just look 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.720 out over the hills and the bee brown smoke and 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.440 at night orange glowes, and so you were really tapped 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:08.640 into the fire danger. If it was hot and windy, 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.120 you knew, you know, it's really dangerous today, and Dad 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.560 will probably take off on the fire truck. But I actually, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.440 I think the day I decided I needed to be 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.640 a firefighter was when I burnt down my sister's cubby 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.400 house when they were both at school and in the 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:28.000 backyard of our house, and it scared the hell out 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:29.560 of me. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.640 Take me back at that moment, Were you like me? 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.000 Did you like to play with matches? 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.160 Look? Yeah, I think I was only about four years old, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.680 and I was My sisters had built this magnificent cubby 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.720 house in the backyard, but it was made out of 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:50.400 dried leaves and grass and branches and things, and I 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.360 was just playing with some matches and it caught fire 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.720 and Dad was at work, and yeah, there you go. 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.680 But I just remember looking at the flames up in 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.440 the tree tops, and the lady next door and my 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.880 mum getting buckets of water because there was no reticulated water. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.880 We helped run water tanks and I it scared the 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.400 hell out of me. And then when my sisters came home, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:16.880 I just remember I thought they're going to beat me up, 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.320 my older sisters, but no, they just cried and I thought, 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.480 I felt so bad. So I think, actually that's maybe 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.040 it's about four years old. Wow, and you felt you 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:31.440 felt I better put these things out, not light them, 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.719 because it's not and jail's not a good trajectory. I 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:37.479 don't really want to go there when I get older. 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.479 But look, my first big fire was actually I was 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.960 twelve years old, was not in seventy one, as I 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:49.120 said before. Dad was a volunteer firefighter. The fire station 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.440 was just over the raid from our place, but there 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:56.080 was a big fire. Dad wasn't on duty that day, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.200 but my older brothers called during the afternoon and I said, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.120 we're home alone, my sister and I. This big fire 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:04.960 is coming towards us. What do we do? And Dad 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.240 just said, come with me. I jumped in the car 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.880 and off we went. And I thought my first big fire, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:14.400 and I was hooked. It was really scary. 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.279 But I love how you just came out of that. 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:19.640 I fought my first fire when I was twelve years old. Wow, 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:23.359 talk about that being in the blood and you know 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.839 that being your destiny or your your career. Take me 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.240 back to that moment. Did were you scared? Were you 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.800 were or were you panicked? What was going through your mind? 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.440 Because it takes a certain state of mind, doesn't it 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:39.159 to be able to run towards something that's burning rather 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.960 than what the majority of people do, and probably rightly 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.440 so is run away from it. 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.640 Yeah, yes, a bit counterintuitive, but I was. I think 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:51.240 from that early age, I was fascinated by fire and 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.279 I used to watch how fire was burnt. And we 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.800 used to do burn offs in our backyard because we're 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.800 in the bush and we had to protect ourselves from 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.680 summer from when summer fires came. And I knew quite 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.000 a bit and I'd read about it. I was really fascinated. 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:08.960 I was a bit of a fire nerd by age twelve, 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.799 and I was just excited. I thought, Gee, Dad's taking 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.360 me with him. And Dad was so calm, you know, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:18.640 And over the years I went to many many fires 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:23.080 with him, and you'd know, in the military, you know, 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.279 you've got some commanders who scream and yell and make 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.760 everyone panic, and Dad was just one of these calm 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.960 people who just calmed everyone around him down. And so 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.560 I had no reason to be scared because of Dad's 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.960 just calm, collected way went around about it. And even 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.720 when you know, we had twenty meter flames coming towards 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.719 us and sparks setting the grass a light under our feet, 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.080 they just said, okay, move over here and just all right, 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:53.719 and if it gets too bad, we'll go in the 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.839 house and if that catches fire, we'll wait till last minute, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:58.599 then we'll come out under the burnt stuff. And it 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:04.960 was just, oh, okay, this is normal. But I yes, 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.760 there were some frightening moments, but not for a moment 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.320 did I feel like it was unsafe, because my dad 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:11.720 was there. 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.520 And it was from that moment that you knew. Was 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.160 that a turning point in your a decision making moment 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.920 where you said to yourself, I want to be a firefighter? 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.240 I think so. I think that was the day I 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.280 just thought, this is you're against the elements and you're 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.000 helping people, and it ticked all the boxes and it 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:35.440 was exciting. But there was an adrenaline rush as well, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.920 and it was really challenging. You had to actually work 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:40.760 out what's going on here. The fire is going to 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.920 go quicker uphill, but it's flat here, so it'll slow down. 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.600 Then we can go on and attack it the intensity 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.360 or die down. But then it's going to come at 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.440 us from the back, so I've got to be ready 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.440 for that. And it was really mental gymnastics working out 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.400 what's happening and oh, I can't see now, there's too 0:07:58.480 --> 0:07:59.760 much smoke out. 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.920 Smile the flames. Ultimately, aren't you they one step ahead? 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:10.120 Yeah, And it was intellectually stimulating. You know, you've got 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.720 your strategies and your tactics and then your tasks and 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.880 all everything sort of led to the same outcome you hoped, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.160 but halfway something weird would happen, a new fire would 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.280 break out over there, and you'd have to start again 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.440 and change it all, and so you had to be 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:29.200 flexible and it was just a really really interesting thing 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:29.600 to do. 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.840 Love it. So when did you actually join the fire service? 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:34.319 When was the day that you thought, you know what 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.960 that's going let's do what I do best. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:42.720 Yes, So look nineteen seventy one, that big fire and 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.319 nineteen seventy two, I remember a friend at school said, 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.559 do you want to join the bush fire Brigade down 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.680 here at Duffy's Forest, And I said, well, I live. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.880 They were adjoining suburbs and I asked that if I 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.360 could join legal and he said you're too young. You 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.000 need to be sixteen before you get on the truck. 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.640 And Terry Hills and so I was able to join 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.000 this other bush fire brigade and as someone pointed out 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:08.959 to me it was actually my brother. He said, that's 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.640 because they'll take anyone. They're desperate. That's why they've taken 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:13.080 you pass. 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:14.280 So they made you feel special. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:20.000 Then, yeah, yeah, thanks Terry. But that was that was 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.920 a good grounding. And then a couple of years later 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.440 I did join up the local brigade, which was just 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:31.080 over the raid from US, and lots of fires through 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:36.400 the nineteen seventies, mainly bushfires but also occasional house fire 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.600 and car fires, car accidents. 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.959 I suppose when you join up, especially in Australia, you 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.280 know you're going to see active duty. And I called 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.400 it active duty because there's exactly that you know, weekly, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:50.640 if not daily. 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.760 Oh yeah, look, And I became a full time firefighter 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.440 as soon as I left high school. When I was 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:01.040 I was eighteen and nineteen seventy eight, nineteen seventy eight, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:02.920 and I worked in the city here where we are 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:07.800 now and that city of Sydney headquarters here. What we'd 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.480 do fifteen thousand calls a year or something. It was 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.800 just constant. You're back into the station, you'd go to 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.120 another one, and a lot of them were false alarms, 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.760 automatic fire alarms, but lots of chemical spills, car accident rescues, 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:26.320 building fires, weird things, and it was just constant. And 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.640 if you're in the suburbs in summer, you were going 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.280 to a lot of bush and grass fires and the 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.880 objective was keep them small, get to them quickly, keep 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.920 them small, and on hot, windy days we'd double the 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.040 response so we'd get there quickly and be able to 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:41.880 round them up. But some of them just got away 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.600 and you could fight these fires for weeks. So it 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:51.320 was yeah, and fire services these days. When I joined, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.959 it was mainly just fire, but then you know the 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:59.840 chemical spills and the rescue the first day helping ambulances. Yeah, 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:06.400 So it was and again such incredibly rewarding work and 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:11.199 the people you worked with just salt of the earth. 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:13.360 You know, they put their lives on the line for 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.120 something they've never met without, and they'd put their lives 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:17.960 on the line for you. And you know a couple 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.800 of situations I was in, I thought I'm done. Someone's 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:26.200 grabbed me and dragged me out. So and you think, wow, 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.720 what a privilege working with people like that, men and 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.959 women who give their all. 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.880 It's the first situation that you actually found yourself in 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.480 when you were like, wow, I'm in deep hair. I 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.240 need the team. You know, I'm not going to get 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:41.079 this alone. 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.760 Yeah, yeah, well I do. And so it was a 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:50.200 bushfire locally, well it was actually it was a hazard 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:54.880 reduction burnoff, but the weather forecast was wrong and Dad 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:56.640 was in charge of this group. There's about ten of 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.880 us down in a valley with just hand tools to 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:04.040 cut fibers, and term is overrun. We were overrun by 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.559 the fire. So it went flames were three four meters high. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:12.200 They suddenly went to ten fifteen meters high, and I 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.040 just again it was Dad's calmness got us out of that. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.600 He got us onto a rock shelf and we a 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:23.440 lot of sparks. We got some burns and a couple 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.200 of got smoke inhalation, but we got out of it alive. 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.520 But I think without someone as calm and as experienced 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.520 as my dad, there would have been panic. And so 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.800 that was pretty hairy. But look, I had quite a 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.400 few over the years. I was at a building fire 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.040 on my twentieth birthday. I remember it well, and in 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:48.960 North Sydney. There's about three stories on fire and I 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.880 went into one level with a line of hose and 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:58.200 the roof came in and knocked me. I was pinned 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.120 by a big beam, but I had a bree thing 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.040 upright a cylinder on my back, so that saved me 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.560 because it would have broken my back and I was stuck, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.720 but it was all burning around me and I couldn't 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.600 find the hose. The blake who was with me, I 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.040 don't know what happened to him later on he got 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:17.960 separated from me. But I was able to crawl out, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.920 worked my way around the walls because that's the strongest 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.960 bit and there was still stuff collapsing, and there's fire 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.560 up above me and around me, and made it to 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.840 the balcony and everyone's digging. What's happening. I said, there's 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.920 young blake from thirty six station trapped under there, and 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:37.480 I thought, oh no, it's a blake I was with. 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:39.360 So I started digging and I said, who is it? 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.319 Who is it who's trapped and they said Greg Mullen 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:47.720 said no, no, it's me wo And look, I remember 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:49.800 I had a really good boss at that time, and 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:51.440 he took me aside and he said he didn't do 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.440 anything wrong. We sent you in there and we didn't 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.440 realize it was ready to collapse. But that's you know, 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.959 the thing five fighter is you've got to be You've 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.840 got to know about chemistry, hydraulics. You know, if you're 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.320 on the tenth floor and you want a certain pressure 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:07.960 on your hose, what do you pump at? You know, 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.560 what's a friction loss? You've got to no building construction, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.800 You've got to be a bit of an electrician. What's 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.000 the power doing? How what have I got to look 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.280 at a plumber? You know, there's all these things you 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.280 have to know, and it's just got more and more 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.040 complex over the years. But that's what makes it such 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.480 a wonderful career. And again back to the men and 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.680 women on the front line, you just you just don't 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.320 find better human beings. You know, I loved working with 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:37.320 them and still do. 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:54.040 Black Summer twenty nineteen, going on to twenty you're established, 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.240 what rank are you holding at this stage? 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:02.520 I'd retired, So I retire in January twenty seventeen. So 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.560 as I did fourteen years as Commissioner of Foreign Rescue 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.560 in New South Wales, which is one of the world's 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:16.480 largest fire services. And look, I'll be open about it. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.600 I had to get out because I had PTSD and 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.600 I sort of tried to deny it to myself, but 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.400 my head was not in a good space and it 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:26.680 was just time I had to go. 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:31.520 And so did you recognize that or did someone else 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:32.560 recognize that I. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.520 Was in denial? I knew all the sime PTSD, yeah, 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.520 and I was too busy looking after other people, but 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.040 it just came to a head. 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.200 And look, I remember it was at a moment that 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:46.640 you thought something's not right. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.080 We had a former Major General from the Australian Army 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.480 speaking to a mental health conference of fire services that 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.960 we'd arranged and I was up the front and I'm 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:02.200 listening to him. He's written a book, Exit Wounds, and 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.960 he was talking and I was just ticking the boxes 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:10.000 as he went, and I just remember someone said to you, okay, 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:16.680 because my legs bouncing and I've fidgeting, fidgeting, and I 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.600 had to walk out and it all sat opened the gate, 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:27.720 and so it was and I finally did something that 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.280 a lot of men don't do. I sought help. And 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.480 you know, this is one of the cultural things in 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.600 fire services in particular, heavily male dominated, and blacks don't 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:43.520 tend to talk about their feelings, and it was one 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.720 of the reasons I pushed hard for more for women 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.560 and fine and risk in New South Wales now has 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.840 the largest proportion of frontline women than any fire service 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.720 in Australia and up there in the world. But it's 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.920 changed the culture for the better. People talk more. But yeah, 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.720 that was really confronting just to go and talk to 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.560 someone and say I don't feel the best. And it 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.119 very quickly sort of escalated the diagnosis and everything. And 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.160 they said you're in a you're in a pretty bad way, 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:17.879 and I said, yeah, yeah, but I'll be right. And 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.480 I said, no, no, you weren't. 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.159 The default answer. Yeah, yeah, I'll be fine. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:28.960 Yea, you know that you're not. And look, I remember 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.680 the day I retired, it was just this huge weight 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.640 lifted off my shoulders. I wasn't responsible anymore. And the thing, 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.920 you know, you'd know in the field, you've been in triggers, 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.120 and my trigger was losing someone and going to knock 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.000 on the door and tell a family they'd lost someone. 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:47.679 And I couldn't. I didn't have another one in me. 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.240 And in every time a page I went off, I'd 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.399 have a panic attack, going no, no, no. And the 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.480 day that I stopped and I gave it back, I thought, oh, 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.879 I thank god, thank god. 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.919 That didn't that didn't last too long, right, Yeah, because 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:03.880 you got called up for Yeah. 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.359 Look, Dad tapped me on the shoulder and he said, 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.120 you know they're short of volunteers mate locally and you're 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:16.520 able bodied. Yeah okay, but look it had been my 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.840 plan and that was your thing. People people say, what 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.520 you got out of that because you went well and 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.520 you went back into I said, yeah, but it's different. 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.720 It's that it's that leadership stuff and being responsible, that's it. 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.160 And you feel an obligation. You know, there's a lot 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:34.480 of money. 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:35.520 Try calling for you again. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.840 Ultimately, Yeah, they've invested a lot of money, you know, 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.000 I know, I work with a London fire brigade, with 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.760 Los Angeles City Fire Fire Department, New York Fire Department, 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.600 New York Take you know, been around the world, got 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.200 all this knowledge. So just say, I know I'm retired, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.240 now I'm going to the beach. Well no it's not. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.240 It wasn't going to and look if there was smoke 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.200 on the horizon and I couldn't do something about it, 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.720 that really hurt me, you know, it was I've got 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:06.080 to do something. So I went back to being a volunteer. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:09.160 So leading up to those fires, that was the original 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.720 question you asked. I was a deputy captain, so I 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.200 was a crew leader, you know, just in charge of 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.000 a crew. But I had all the qualifications to be 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:21.280 a group leader, in charge of a number of brigades, 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.880 and to be an incident controller. And so I'd get 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.639 called in to do command roles or just take a 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:28.680 crew to a small fire and put the fire out. 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:33.439 But yeah, the lead up into twenty nineteen twenty eighteen 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.040 was almost black summer. But then it rained in New 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.600 South Wales in November and it just we lost homes 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.560 very early in the piece, so earlier than we'd ever 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.520 really had big fires before in August should have shouldn't 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.600 have been until October. Big fires in the state of Queensland, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.600 Tasmania in places that had never burned before. And so 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.800 this was prior to, yeah, prior to and just saw. 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.880 The warning signs were they did that ring alarm bells? 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.560 Oh yeah, oh yeah. No. I was losing sleep. And 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.919 I'd been tapped on the shoulder by the Australian Climate 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.439 Council to come on board as a member as a 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:16.520 natural disasters expert. And they were formed after the Liberal 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:19.840 National Party government that came to power and I don't 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.119 know what year immediately sacked everybody on the Climate Commission. 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:29.040 So they got crowdfunded, the community crowdfunded them. They became 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.119 the Climate Council. So I'd come on board and I 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:36.280 was telling the Climate Council, something really, really bad is coming. 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.040 This is twenty eighteen. We just dodged a bullet, but 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.800 millions of hectares were burnt, dozens of homes. 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:45.960 Yeah, this is out of the norm. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.800 This is Yeah. It ever doesn't rain in twenty nineteen. 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:52.600 I don't know what it's going to look like, but 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:57.119 it's not going to be good. So yes, that's where I. 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:58.880 Was at so did they lessen to you? 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.760 I look absolutely, and I put to the Climate Council, 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.080 I said, I'd like to I think it would be 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.320 really beneficial to have former fire chiefs who can speak, 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.679 because when you're employed by government, you're bound by government 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.399 policy and you don't come out criticizing the government, or 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.320 you can, but you won't have a job for much longer. 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.760 But I want to form this group of former fire 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.320 chiefs and they said, yep, go for it. So cut 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.960 a long story short. One week of phone calls and 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.640 I had twenty three former fire chiefs from every fire 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.600 service in Australia just saying, look, where as worried as 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.800 you are, we've got to do something. We've got to 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:39.359 go to the government. We've got to go to the 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.600 Prime Minister because this is going to blow up at 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:48.639 the end of this year. And that didn't turn out 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:50.919 to be that successful because the government didn't want to 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:55.359 listen because we said two horrible words, climate change, and 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:59.760 ideologically that was a no no. So they just attacked 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:05.000 us wow and said we were what the Deputy Prime 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.600 Minister call us at the time, time wasters in a 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:14.400 city Lata sipping your joking me, yeah, idiots or something 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.000 that was something like that, and it was just it 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.560 was actually amusing just to see how juvenile they were. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.960 But the Prime Minister would not respond to our letters 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.679 and would not meet with us, and we were just 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:33.040 saying very simple things like you need to streamline how 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:35.840 you use the military because they'll tell you that it's 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.040 the system that's thirty years old, is broken and it's 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.240 very hard for them to help with assets, et cetera. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.000 And the fire chiefs at the moment have asked for 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:48.280 just twelve million dollars because they need more firefighting aircraft 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.000 that they leased from overseas and they got to get 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.760 in now, and they just said no, twelve million was 0:22:53.800 --> 0:22:57.199 a rounding error in the federal budget. But they just 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:02.120