1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced, the Galligle people of 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: the Urination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: It's December twenty nineteen and we're in the Blue Mountains, 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: just outside Sydney. At this time of year, tourists usually 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 2: flock here for the stunning scenery and well renowned bushwalks. 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: But this summer is different. This is black summer. Across 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 2: the country, seventeen million hectares of land are burning. That's 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: almost the size of France. The fires have been raging 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 2: for months and there's no end in sight. Greg Mullins 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: has dedicated his life to fighting fires, and he's doing 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: his best to help the residents, wildlife and homes under threat. 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: It's midnight and he stares up at the fifty meter 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: high wall of flames. He's been here for sixteen hours today, 15 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: his uniform is charred. His mind starts to play tricks 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 2: on him. Deep down, he knows that the rain will 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: come one day, this will be over. But what if 18 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't end. What if it just keeps burning until 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 2: next summer, until there's nothing left to burn. I'm at 20 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,639 Speaker 2: Middleton and this is head game today on the front 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: line in one of the nation's most catastrophic bushfires. Now 22 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: I'm super excited. I have the firefighter Extraordinary Greg Mullins 23 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: in studio with me. Now, Greg, after your name, you 24 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: have multiple initials, so it goes Alpha, Oscar, Alpha, Foxtrot, Sierra, Mike, 25 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: so af s M. Could you just break that down 26 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: for me, mate, because I know you're someone super important 27 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: when you've got all of those initiative. 28 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of letters. Yeah. AO is an Officer of 29 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: the Order of Australia, So it's the Australian honors system. 30 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: That's the second highest one. And the a SM is 31 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: the Australian Fire Service Medal, So that's that's I don't 32 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,119 Speaker 3: know how many years. There's not that many a year 33 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 3: given out Australia wide to people in the fire services. 34 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 2: So I got it right, Firefighter extraordinary. Now, fascinating career. 35 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: But where did it all start for you? Mate? When 36 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 2: did the did you think to yourself, right, I'm going 37 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 2: to become a firefighter. This is what I want to do. 38 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 2: Your father was a volunteer firefighter. Did it all stem 39 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: from him? 40 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: Oh? Look, pretty much. We lived in an area in 41 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 3: the north of Sydney, beautiful area but surrounded by National Park, 42 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,839 Speaker 3: and every summer there were fires and you just look 43 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 3: out over the hills and the bee brown smoke and 44 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: at night orange glowes, and so you were really tapped 45 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 3: into the fire danger. If it was hot and windy, 46 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 3: you knew, you know, it's really dangerous today, and Dad 47 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: will probably take off on the fire truck. But I actually, 48 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: I think the day I decided I needed to be 49 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 3: a firefighter was when I burnt down my sister's cubby 50 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: house when they were both at school and in the 51 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 3: backyard of our house, and it scared the hell out 52 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: of me. 53 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: Take me back at that moment, Were you like me? 54 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Did you like to play with matches? 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: Look? Yeah, I think I was only about four years old, 56 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: and I was My sisters had built this magnificent cubby 57 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 3: house in the backyard, but it was made out of 58 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: dried leaves and grass and branches and things, and I 59 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: was just playing with some matches and it caught fire 60 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: and Dad was at work, and yeah, there you go. 61 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: But I just remember looking at the flames up in 62 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: the tree tops, and the lady next door and my 63 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: mum getting buckets of water because there was no reticulated water. 64 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: We helped run water tanks and I it scared the 65 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: hell out of me. And then when my sisters came home, 66 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: I just remember I thought they're going to beat me up, 67 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: my older sisters, but no, they just cried and I thought, 68 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 3: I felt so bad. So I think, actually that's maybe 69 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: it's about four years old. Wow, and you felt you 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: felt I better put these things out, not light them, 71 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: because it's not and jail's not a good trajectory. I 72 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 3: don't really want to go there when I get older. 73 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 3: But look, my first big fire was actually I was 74 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: twelve years old, was not in seventy one, as I 75 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: said before. Dad was a volunteer firefighter. The fire station 76 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 3: was just over the raid from our place, but there 77 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: was a big fire. Dad wasn't on duty that day, 78 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 3: but my older brothers called during the afternoon and I said, 79 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: we're home alone, my sister and I. This big fire 80 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: is coming towards us. What do we do? And Dad 81 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: just said, come with me. I jumped in the car 82 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 3: and off we went. And I thought my first big fire, 83 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: and I was hooked. It was really scary. 84 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: But I love how you just came out of that. 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: I fought my first fire when I was twelve years old. Wow, 86 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 2: talk about that being in the blood and you know 87 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: that being your destiny or your your career. Take me 88 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: back to that moment. Did were you scared? Were you 89 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: were or were you panicked? What was going through your mind? 90 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: Because it takes a certain state of mind, doesn't it 91 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: to be able to run towards something that's burning rather 92 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: than what the majority of people do, and probably rightly 93 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: so is run away from it. 94 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, a bit counterintuitive, but I was. I think 95 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: from that early age, I was fascinated by fire and 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 3: I used to watch how fire was burnt. And we 97 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: used to do burn offs in our backyard because we're 98 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: in the bush and we had to protect ourselves from 99 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: summer from when summer fires came. And I knew quite 100 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: a bit and I'd read about it. I was really fascinated. 101 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: I was a bit of a fire nerd by age twelve, 102 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 3: and I was just excited. I thought, Gee, Dad's taking 103 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: me with him. And Dad was so calm, you know, 104 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 3: And over the years I went to many many fires 105 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 3: with him, and you'd know, in the military, you know, 106 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 3: you've got some commanders who scream and yell and make 107 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: everyone panic, and Dad was just one of these calm 108 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: people who just calmed everyone around him down. And so 109 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 3: I had no reason to be scared because of Dad's 110 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 3: just calm, collected way went around about it. And even 111 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 3: when you know, we had twenty meter flames coming towards 112 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 3: us and sparks setting the grass a light under our feet, 113 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: they just said, okay, move over here and just all right, 114 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 3: and if it gets too bad, we'll go in the 115 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: house and if that catches fire, we'll wait till last minute, 116 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 3: then we'll come out under the burnt stuff. And it 117 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 3: was just, oh, okay, this is normal. But I yes, 118 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 3: there were some frightening moments, but not for a moment 119 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: did I feel like it was unsafe, because my dad 120 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: was there. 121 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: And it was from that moment that you knew. Was 122 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: that a turning point in your a decision making moment 123 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: where you said to yourself, I want to be a firefighter? 124 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 3: I think so. I think that was the day I 125 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 3: just thought, this is you're against the elements and you're 126 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: helping people, and it ticked all the boxes and it 127 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 3: was exciting. But there was an adrenaline rush as well, 128 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: and it was really challenging. You had to actually work 129 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: out what's going on here. The fire is going to 130 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: go quicker uphill, but it's flat here, so it'll slow down. 131 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: Then we can go on and attack it the intensity 132 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 3: or die down. But then it's going to come at 133 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: us from the back, so I've got to be ready 134 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: for that. And it was really mental gymnastics working out 135 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: what's happening and oh, I can't see now, there's too 136 00:07:58,480 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 3: much smoke out. 137 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: Smile the flames. Ultimately, aren't you they one step ahead? 138 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it was intellectually stimulating. You know, you've got 139 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 3: your strategies and your tactics and then your tasks and 140 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: all everything sort of led to the same outcome you hoped, 141 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 3: but halfway something weird would happen, a new fire would 142 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: break out over there, and you'd have to start again 143 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 3: and change it all, and so you had to be 144 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 3: flexible and it was just a really really interesting thing 145 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: to do. 146 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: Love it. So when did you actually join the fire service? 147 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: When was the day that you thought, you know what 148 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: that's going let's do what I do best. 149 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: Yes, So look nineteen seventy one, that big fire and 150 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, I remember a friend at school said, 151 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 3: do you want to join the bush fire Brigade down 152 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 3: here at Duffy's Forest, And I said, well, I live. 153 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: They were adjoining suburbs and I asked that if I 154 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: could join legal and he said you're too young. You 155 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: need to be sixteen before you get on the truck. 156 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: And Terry Hills and so I was able to join 157 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 3: this other bush fire brigade and as someone pointed out 158 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 3: to me it was actually my brother. He said, that's 159 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 3: because they'll take anyone. They're desperate. That's why they've taken 160 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 3: you pass. 161 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: So they made you feel special. 162 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 3: Then, yeah, yeah, thanks Terry. But that was that was 163 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: a good grounding. And then a couple of years later 164 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 3: I did join up the local brigade, which was just 165 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 3: over the raid from US, and lots of fires through 166 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies, mainly bushfires but also occasional house fire 167 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: and car fires, car accidents. 168 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 2: I suppose when you join up, especially in Australia, you 169 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 2: know you're going to see active duty. And I called 170 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: it active duty because there's exactly that you know, weekly, 171 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: if not daily. 172 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, look, And I became a full time firefighter 173 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: as soon as I left high school. When I was 174 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: I was eighteen and nineteen seventy eight, nineteen seventy eight, 175 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: and I worked in the city here where we are 176 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: now and that city of Sydney headquarters here. What we'd 177 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: do fifteen thousand calls a year or something. It was 178 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 3: just constant. You're back into the station, you'd go to 179 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 3: another one, and a lot of them were false alarms, 180 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: automatic fire alarms, but lots of chemical spills, car accident rescues, 181 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 3: building fires, weird things, and it was just constant. And 182 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: if you're in the suburbs in summer, you were going 183 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: to a lot of bush and grass fires and the 184 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: objective was keep them small, get to them quickly, keep 185 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 3: them small, and on hot, windy days we'd double the 186 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: response so we'd get there quickly and be able to 187 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: round them up. But some of them just got away 188 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: and you could fight these fires for weeks. So it 189 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 3: was yeah, and fire services these days. When I joined, 190 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 3: it was mainly just fire, but then you know the 191 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: chemical spills and the rescue the first day helping ambulances. Yeah, 192 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: So it was and again such incredibly rewarding work and 193 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 3: the people you worked with just salt of the earth. 194 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: You know, they put their lives on the line for 195 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: something they've never met without, and they'd put their lives 196 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 3: on the line for you. And you know a couple 197 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: of situations I was in, I thought I'm done. Someone's 198 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 3: grabbed me and dragged me out. So and you think, wow, 199 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 3: what a privilege working with people like that, men and 200 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 3: women who give their all. 201 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: It's the first situation that you actually found yourself in 202 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: when you were like, wow, I'm in deep hair. I 203 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: need the team. You know, I'm not going to get 204 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 2: this alone. 205 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well I do. And so it was a 206 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 3: bushfire locally, well it was actually it was a hazard 207 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: reduction burnoff, but the weather forecast was wrong and Dad 208 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: was in charge of this group. There's about ten of 209 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: us down in a valley with just hand tools to 210 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: cut fibers, and term is overrun. We were overrun by 211 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 3: the fire. So it went flames were three four meters high. 212 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 3: They suddenly went to ten fifteen meters high, and I 213 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 3: just again it was Dad's calmness got us out of that. 214 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: He got us onto a rock shelf and we a 215 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 3: lot of sparks. We got some burns and a couple 216 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 3: of got smoke inhalation, but we got out of it alive. 217 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: But I think without someone as calm and as experienced 218 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: as my dad, there would have been panic. And so 219 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: that was pretty hairy. But look, I had quite a 220 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 3: few over the years. I was at a building fire 221 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 3: on my twentieth birthday. I remember it well, and in 222 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 3: North Sydney. There's about three stories on fire and I 223 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: went into one level with a line of hose and 224 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 3: the roof came in and knocked me. I was pinned 225 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: by a big beam, but I had a bree thing 226 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 3: upright a cylinder on my back, so that saved me 227 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 3: because it would have broken my back and I was stuck, 228 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: but it was all burning around me and I couldn't 229 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: find the hose. The blake who was with me, I 230 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 3: don't know what happened to him later on he got 231 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 3: separated from me. But I was able to crawl out, 232 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: worked my way around the walls because that's the strongest 233 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 3: bit and there was still stuff collapsing, and there's fire 234 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: up above me and around me, and made it to 235 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 3: the balcony and everyone's digging. What's happening. I said, there's 236 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 3: young blake from thirty six station trapped under there, and 237 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: I thought, oh no, it's a blake I was with. 238 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: So I started digging and I said, who is it? 239 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: Who is it who's trapped and they said Greg Mullen 240 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 3: said no, no, it's me wo And look, I remember 241 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 3: I had a really good boss at that time, and 242 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 3: he took me aside and he said he didn't do 243 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 3: anything wrong. We sent you in there and we didn't 244 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 3: realize it was ready to collapse. But that's you know, 245 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 3: the thing five fighter is you've got to be You've 246 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 3: got to know about chemistry, hydraulics. You know, if you're 247 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: on the tenth floor and you want a certain pressure 248 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 3: on your hose, what do you pump at? You know, 249 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: what's a friction loss? You've got to no building construction, 250 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 3: You've got to be a bit of an electrician. What's 251 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 3: the power doing? How what have I got to look 252 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: at a plumber? You know, there's all these things you 253 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: have to know, and it's just got more and more 254 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: complex over the years. But that's what makes it such 255 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 3: a wonderful career. And again back to the men and 256 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 3: women on the front line, you just you just don't 257 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 3: find better human beings. You know, I loved working with 258 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: them and still do. 259 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: Black Summer twenty nineteen, going on to twenty you're established, 260 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: what rank are you holding at this stage? 261 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: I'd retired, So I retire in January twenty seventeen. So 262 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 3: as I did fourteen years as Commissioner of Foreign Rescue 263 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: in New South Wales, which is one of the world's 264 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: largest fire services. And look, I'll be open about it. 265 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: I had to get out because I had PTSD and 266 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 3: I sort of tried to deny it to myself, but 267 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: my head was not in a good space and it 268 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 3: was just time I had to go. 269 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: And so did you recognize that or did someone else 270 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 2: recognize that I. 271 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: Was in denial? I knew all the sime PTSD, yeah, 272 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: and I was too busy looking after other people, but 273 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: it just came to a head. 274 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: And look, I remember it was at a moment that 275 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: you thought something's not right. 276 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 3: We had a former Major General from the Australian Army 277 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 3: speaking to a mental health conference of fire services that 278 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: we'd arranged and I was up the front and I'm 279 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: listening to him. He's written a book, Exit Wounds, and 280 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: he was talking and I was just ticking the boxes 281 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: as he went, and I just remember someone said to you, okay, 282 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: because my legs bouncing and I've fidgeting, fidgeting, and I 283 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: had to walk out and it all sat opened the gate, 284 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: and so it was and I finally did something that 285 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: a lot of men don't do. I sought help. And 286 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: you know, this is one of the cultural things in 287 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: fire services in particular, heavily male dominated, and blacks don't 288 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: tend to talk about their feelings, and it was one 289 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: of the reasons I pushed hard for more for women 290 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 3: and fine and risk in New South Wales now has 291 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: the largest proportion of frontline women than any fire service 292 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 3: in Australia and up there in the world. But it's 293 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: changed the culture for the better. People talk more. But yeah, 294 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 3: that was really confronting just to go and talk to 295 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 3: someone and say I don't feel the best. And it 296 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 3: very quickly sort of escalated the diagnosis and everything. And 297 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: they said you're in a you're in a pretty bad way, 298 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 3: and I said, yeah, yeah, but I'll be right. And 299 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 3: I said, no, no, you weren't. 300 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: The default answer. Yeah, yeah, I'll be fine. 301 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: Yea, you know that you're not. And look, I remember 302 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 3: the day I retired, it was just this huge weight 303 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 3: lifted off my shoulders. I wasn't responsible anymore. And the thing, 304 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 3: you know, you'd know in the field, you've been in triggers, 305 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 3: and my trigger was losing someone and going to knock 306 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 3: on the door and tell a family they'd lost someone. 307 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 3: And I couldn't. I didn't have another one in me. 308 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 3: And in every time a page I went off, I'd 309 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 3: have a panic attack, going no, no, no. And the 310 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 3: day that I stopped and I gave it back, I thought, oh, 311 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 3: I thank god, thank god. 312 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 2: That didn't that didn't last too long, right, Yeah, because 313 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: you got called up for Yeah. 314 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 3: Look, Dad tapped me on the shoulder and he said, 315 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 3: you know they're short of volunteers mate locally and you're 316 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 3: able bodied. Yeah okay, but look it had been my 317 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: plan and that was your thing. People people say, what 318 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: you got out of that because you went well and 319 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: you went back into I said, yeah, but it's different. 320 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 3: It's that it's that leadership stuff and being responsible, that's it. 321 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 3: And you feel an obligation. You know, there's a lot 322 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 3: of money. 323 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: Try calling for you again. 324 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 3: Ultimately, Yeah, they've invested a lot of money, you know, 325 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: I know, I work with a London fire brigade, with 326 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: Los Angeles City Fire Fire Department, New York Fire Department, 327 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 3: New York Take you know, been around the world, got 328 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 3: all this knowledge. So just say, I know I'm retired, 329 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 3: now I'm going to the beach. Well no it's not. 330 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: It wasn't going to and look if there was smoke 331 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 3: on the horizon and I couldn't do something about it, 332 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: that really hurt me, you know, it was I've got 333 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: to do something. So I went back to being a volunteer. 334 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 3: So leading up to those fires, that was the original 335 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 3: question you asked. I was a deputy captain, so I 336 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 3: was a crew leader, you know, just in charge of 337 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: a crew. But I had all the qualifications to be 338 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: a group leader, in charge of a number of brigades, 339 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 3: and to be an incident controller. And so I'd get 340 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: called in to do command roles or just take a 341 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 3: crew to a small fire and put the fire out. 342 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 3: But yeah, the lead up into twenty nineteen twenty eighteen 343 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: was almost black summer. But then it rained in New 344 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 3: South Wales in November and it just we lost homes 345 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 3: very early in the piece, so earlier than we'd ever 346 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 3: really had big fires before in August should have shouldn't 347 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: have been until October. Big fires in the state of Queensland, 348 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 3: Tasmania in places that had never burned before. And so 349 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 3: this was prior to, yeah, prior to and just saw. 350 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: The warning signs were they did that ring alarm bells? 351 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. No. I was losing sleep. And 352 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 3: I'd been tapped on the shoulder by the Australian Climate 353 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 3: Council to come on board as a member as a 354 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 3: natural disasters expert. And they were formed after the Liberal 355 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 3: National Party government that came to power and I don't 356 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 3: know what year immediately sacked everybody on the Climate Commission. 357 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: So they got crowdfunded, the community crowdfunded them. They became 358 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 3: the Climate Council. So I'd come on board and I 359 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 3: was telling the Climate Council, something really, really bad is coming. 360 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: This is twenty eighteen. We just dodged a bullet, but 361 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: millions of hectares were burnt, dozens of homes. 362 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is out of the norm. 363 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: This is Yeah. It ever doesn't rain in twenty nineteen. 364 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 3: I don't know what it's going to look like, but 365 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 3: it's not going to be good. So yes, that's where I. 366 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 2: Was at so did they lessen to you? 367 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 3: I look absolutely, and I put to the Climate Council, 368 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 3: I said, I'd like to I think it would be 369 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: really beneficial to have former fire chiefs who can speak, 370 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 3: because when you're employed by government, you're bound by government 371 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 3: policy and you don't come out criticizing the government, or 372 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 3: you can, but you won't have a job for much longer. 373 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 3: But I want to form this group of former fire 374 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: chiefs and they said, yep, go for it. So cut 375 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 3: a long story short. One week of phone calls and 376 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 3: I had twenty three former fire chiefs from every fire 377 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: service in Australia just saying, look, where as worried as 378 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: you are, we've got to do something. We've got to 379 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: go to the government. We've got to go to the 380 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 3: Prime Minister because this is going to blow up at 381 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 3: the end of this year. And that didn't turn out 382 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 3: to be that successful because the government didn't want to 383 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: listen because we said two horrible words, climate change, and 384 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 3: ideologically that was a no no. So they just attacked 385 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 3: us wow and said we were what the Deputy Prime 386 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 3: Minister call us at the time, time wasters in a 387 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 3: city Lata sipping your joking me, yeah, idiots or something 388 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 3: that was something like that, and it was just it 389 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: was actually amusing just to see how juvenile they were. 390 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: But the Prime Minister would not respond to our letters 391 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 3: and would not meet with us, and we were just 392 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 3: saying very simple things like you need to streamline how 393 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 3: you use the military because they'll tell you that it's 394 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: the system that's thirty years old, is broken and it's 395 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 3: very hard for them to help with assets, et cetera. 396 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: And the fire chiefs at the moment have asked for 397 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 3: just twelve million dollars because they need more firefighting aircraft 398 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: that they leased from overseas and they got to get 399 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: in now, and they just said no, twelve million was 400 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 3: a rounding error in the federal budget. But they just 401 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 3: wouldn't and because it was because we mentioned climate change and. 402 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: They were soon eating their words. Right, when did it 403 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: start to really get out of control? When was the 404 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: next let's called it the next wave, because ultimately, guess 405 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 2: what happened. You had you had the warning shots over 406 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: over the bow and now it's like no one, no 407 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: one took year to that even though you didn't have 408 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: the funding. Did you start preparing for what you knew 409 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 2: was coming. 410 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 3: Oh, look absolutely, and the fire services were just going, 411 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: you know, we don't know where it'll hit. We know 412 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 3: it's going to be bad because it was. We're in 413 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 3: drought and two thousand and eighteen have been really hot, 414 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 3: and in two thousand and eighteen we looked to California. 415 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: They lost twenty thousand buildings in two thousand and eighteen, 416 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: including the the city of Paradise was basically destroyed and 417 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: nearly one hundred people killed. And often we follow California 418 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 3: our big fire season, so I factored that in thought, Oh, 419 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 3: you know, so that's what happened to them. We've had 420 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 3: this build up. If it doesn't rain, if we don't 421 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 3: get winter rain, pardon my French, we're screwed. And we 422 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 3: didn't get the winter rains. So just to understand the fires, 423 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 3: the legislation in New South Wales says we get our 424 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 3: bush fires from first to October to thirty first of 425 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 3: March e chick because for one hundred years that was 426 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: a case. So in July, months before that, we were 427 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 3: having major fires and by August we were losing homes. 428 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 3: And in the past, no, you don't lose homes until 429 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 3: near Christmas, maybe November, but in September sixth I remember 430 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 3: September sixth we had catastrophic fire weather in northern New 431 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 3: South Wales and had never even got close before that date. Yeah, 432 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: it just and I just watched this unfold in southern 433 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 3: Queensland and wet rainforest or so called wet rainforests that 434 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 3: had dried out was burning. That stuff that hadn't burnt 435 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 3: for me, you know, was Gondwana rainforests from the same 436 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 3: as it was when the dinosaurs were there, and it 437 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 3: didn't burn. Now it was earning. Just dozens of homes lost, 438 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 3: and so the government started to dial back there, denial 439 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden start eating. In September, contacted 440 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 3: by one of the ministers saying, oh, you know, maybe 441 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 3: we should talk to you, and we said no, we 442 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: want to talk to the Prime minister. So they straightway 443 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 3: said they refused to talk to us. No, that's not 444 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 3: actually the case. We said, we want to talk to 445 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 3: the Prime minister. This is bad, but it's going to 446 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: get a lot worse. 447 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: So we've start you know this, yeah, yeah, this is. 448 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 3: And look we did meet with two ministers. Prime minister 449 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 3: just would not talk to us. And they held a 450 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 3: little press conference ten minutes after we walked out of 451 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: their office, saying, oh, we met with the old fire 452 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 3: chiefs and we patted them on the head and said, 453 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: you know, don't worry, we've got this, and they need 454 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 3: to have confidence in the current fire chiefs. So tried 455 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 3: to make out that we were bagging the current fire chess, 456 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: which was not the cuts. They were doing a brilliant job, 457 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 3: but with one arm tied behind their back, and so 458 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 3: it was just political and it got worse from now. 459 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: I have to think that politics would be an obstacle 460 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: for allowing you to save lives, to save the land, 461 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: to save animals, to save wildlife, to save mother nature. 462 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: You'd have any resistance from government, you'd think they'd go right, 463 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 2: and you know what you're doing is, you know, here's 464 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: one hundredercent, let's go, you know, to prevent it at 465 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: all costs. But instead, it's really bizarre. 466 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 3: And it was all down to ideology. And they had 467 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 3: a platform for a decade saying there's really no such 468 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 3: thing as climate change and we don't have to do anything, 469 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 3: and we you know, anything we do makes no difference. 470 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: It'll be three percent or a point three percent of 471 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 3: the emissions. Why would we ruin our economy? This was 472 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 3: their rhetoric, But Australia's in the front line, and what 473 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 3: we were saying was, yeah, but why did we tell 474 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 3: other countries they should get rid of nuclear weapons or 475 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 3: stop apartheid or whatever. You know, we used to have 476 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 3: moral clout because ossies do the wrong thing and they're 477 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,959 Speaker 3: not scared to front up to someone bigger than them 478 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 3: and say, hey, you're doing the wrong thing and climate change, 479 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 3: we're going to whimp it out. And you know, a 480 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 3: cynic might say they had lots of friends in the 481 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 3: fossil fuel industries helping to fund them, and that's what 482 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 3: we're up against. And look, so what point. 483 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: Did it get to when it was like the country's 484 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: going to burn? You know this is serious because I 485 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: remember it going global the news globe. I remember seeing 486 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: houses going wildlife you know, koalas kang like it's almost 487 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: as if Australia was on fire. 488 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 3: We'll look, it was and every state and territory had 489 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 3: major fires, so and that had never happened before. There 490 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 3: used to be sequential They come from the north and 491 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: we'd share firefighters across borders all of sudden, we're in 492 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 3: the fight of our lives and couldn't help each other. 493 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: The aircraft we needed. California still had fires and they 494 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 3: wouldn't let a lot of them go because a big 495 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 3: aircraft we don't have any in Australia, or didn't have 496 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: any in Australia. Then we had to lease them, and 497 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 3: so they were saying, no, we've got our own problems, 498 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 3: you can wait. So the fires got bigger and bigger. 499 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 3: The weather it was the worst weather ever recorded, so 500 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: for months and months and months. There's a whole lot 501 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: of things that contributed to that, in the Antarctic and 502 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: the Tropics and the unusual weather patterns. But we had drought, 503 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 3: so we had strong westerly winds coming off the desert, 504 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 3: off the interior the out back, hitting the coast, very 505 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 3: low humidity, very high temperatures. I was fighting fires one 506 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: day twenty first of December twenty nineteen. It just about 507 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 3: reached fifty degrees in western Sydney. I did a twenty 508 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 3: six hour shift and ended up in bed with de hydration, 509 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 3: pretty sick, and know we we saved dozens of homes 510 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: that night, but it nearly didn't make it home. And 511 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: so it was horrendous weather. And as a young firefighter, 512 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 3: I remember thinking, oh, you know the old one hundred 513 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: degrees fahrenheit, it's thirty eight degrees. That's about as hot 514 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 3: as it would ever get. But then we were fighting 515 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 3: fires regularly in forty five forty seven. It was just horrendous. 516 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 3: And he took off in November again, and I was 517 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: actually in California at the Kincaid Fire in Sonoma County. 518 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: So I went over with the Climate Council. The ABC 519 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 3: Australian Broadcasting Commission tagged along and I went out to 520 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 3: this fire and they did a little special and it 521 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 3: went to where I think it was the seventh of November. Sorry, 522 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: I'm a nerder, remember dates. It's a roundabout then, and 523 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 3: on the and me saying, well, look at this fire 524 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 3: in California. Here's what's changing with climate change. They didn't 525 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 3: get big fires like this in northern California this time 526 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: of year, but now they do same in Australia. And 527 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: this build up, this is the worst I've ever seen, 528 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 3: and I'm really frightened about what's going to happen. So 529 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 3: the next day after they ran it across Australia, the 530 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 3: fires went wild and lost dozens and dozens of homes, 531 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 3: some lives, and. 532 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 2: You're back to back at this stage, you know, every 533 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 2: man and his dog is out. Are you undermanned as 534 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: a fire service, so all your resources stretched. 535 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: It it was just relentless and relentlessly and it was 536 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 3: just you know, you're going from August and just there 537 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 3: was no rest months and months and people who lived 538 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 3: in the fire areas and I was really lucky. I thought, 539 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 3: if Sydney gets hit, you know, that's where the real 540 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 3: property losses have traditionally happened, as on the outskirts of 541 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: Sydney and the Blue Mountains near Sydney. But we're losing 542 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 3: hundreds of homes in regional areas which had never happened 543 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 3: before and just showed how big the fires were. But yeah, 544 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 3: people were exhorted and you couldn't get the interstate assistance 545 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 3: because they had their own fires. You didn't have enough aircraft, 546 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 3: you know. I remember watching a drop on the south 547 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 3: coast of New South Wales thinking great, and then it 548 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: was two hours before the next one because it had 549 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: to fly back to Sydney and relaid and come back. 550 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 3: And it was just there was no point, you know, 551 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 3: and it was and the small aircraft couldn't fly because 552 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 3: wind was too strong. So we'd get days of catastrophic 553 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: fire weather, which was a new rating we brought in 554 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: because of climate change, because the weather was getting so bad. 555 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 3: But most aircraft couldn't fly in those days because the 556 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: wind was too gusty and strong. And there was a 557 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 3: bad air crash at see one thirty hercules went in 558 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 3: on one of these days. 559 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard about that, but it was just. 560 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, horrific. So look, it just got worse and worse 561 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 3: and worse, and culminated on New Year's Eve twenty nineteen. 562 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 3: The south coast of New South Wales, which is you know, 563 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 3: hundreds of kilometers long, beautiful beaches. Tens of thousands of 564 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 3: people go there for their Christmas holidays. It was evacuated 565 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 3: and there were dozens of huge fires, and I remember 566 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 3: being down there on Newyear's Day. We left Sydney about 567 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 3: four am. It would have been hundreds of fire trucks 568 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 3: heading down there, and we just couldn't do a thing 569 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: because we had what we called a pyro convective storm 570 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 3: above us, and that means the fire was so hot 571 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 3: the convection column pushed into the stratosphere and brought gale 572 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 3: storm force winds to the surface this incredibly dry air, 573 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 3: and huge trees next to us were just getting snapped 574 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: off like toothpicks and thrown around. And I didn't think 575 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 3: I was coming home again, I thought, but you talked 576 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 3: about the animals, and this is I was back to 577 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 3: my psychologist over this one because I couldn't talk about 578 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: I can talk about it now without sort of tearing up, 579 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: but it took a lot of work to get there. 580 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 3: Remember being on a highway and there's factories burning and 581 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 3: homes burning, and we didn't have any water, and the 582 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: power had gone and we couldn't get any water. I 583 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 3: saw something over on the side of the highway through 584 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 3: the smoke. What's that? And I thought it was burnt 585 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 3: hay bales, And then some of them started to move 586 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 3: and I went over closer and it was a mob 587 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 3: of kangaroos who had been caught in the forest and 588 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,239 Speaker 3: just caught fire and come out on the raid and 589 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 3: just died on the raid. And I've never seen that 590 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 3: because kangaroos know how to get away from fires. And 591 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 3: I just, yeah, i'd cry if I talked about it 592 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 3: for months and it just said everything to me. I 593 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: just thought, my grandkids are going to grow up this. 594 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: You know, millions of hectares have been sterilized for decades. 595 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 3: Animals will come back, but nothing like when I was 596 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 3: a kid, when my parents took me camping see kangaroos 597 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 3: and koalas and kidnaps and goannas and well, this beautiful wildlife. 598 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 3: It was wiped down. 599 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: I had a sense of worthlessness when you just said. 600 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: I was stood there. You're looking around, everything around you's 601 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: on fire. You can't do your job because you've got 602 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: no resources, and I can imagine me being in a 603 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: war zone, you know, with no weapon. Just wow, that 604 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: must be some yeah sort of headspace to be in. 605 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 2: What was going for your head? 606 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 3: I'm not good, certainly not good. And look the mental 607 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 3: health issues with firefighters since then, and thinking you're going 608 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 3: to die is you know, as you know, it's not 609 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 3: a good thing, and you do that too many times 610 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 3: and plays with the head of it. That's an understand 611 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: but but just not being able to help was so destroying. 612 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 3: You know, I'm a firefighter, but I can't fight your fire. 613 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 3: And sorry, I can't help you because I'm just dodging trees, 614 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 3: and I don't know if I'm getting out of here, 615 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if I'm going home from this. 616 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 3: So and it was just it's just like having your 617 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 3: legs cut off out from under you. You know. It 618 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 3: was just the whole reason for being and he couldn't 619 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 3: do it. And it brought it home to me. And 620 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 3: I got to say, I was so pissed off with 621 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 3: the government that day, and a couple of days later 622 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 3: the Prime Minister had a press conference and so I'm 623 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 3: going to fix it all. I'm going to give them 624 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 3: a money for aircraft. I was pretty angry, and I 625 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 3: don't I actually don't talk about that much because I 626 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 3: think it serves no purpose. But the other thing was 627 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 3: he went on a holiday and didn't tell anyone. You know, 628 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 3: if he told people, fine, but he kept it secret 629 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 3: because he knew he should have been there providing leadership 630 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 3: during a disaster, but he took off. And so all that. 631 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: Also emotion as anger, resentment, Yeah, you know, worth you 632 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: don't feel like you can do your job, Well, you 633 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: can't do your job negative emotions, yeah you can't. But 634 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: how did you deal with that? Well, you go home 635 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: and cry. How did you deal with that? Was was 636 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: there at the moments that you sort of just broke 637 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 2: down and was just. 638 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 3: Like, yeah, well yes, but look in my book, I 639 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: talk about it. A day I was going out on 640 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 3: the fire line again. It was that forty nine degree day, 641 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 3: and but two days before I'd been fighting fires down 642 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 3: to the south of Sydney and two young dads were 643 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 3: killed when a tree fell on their truck. And that's 644 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 3: my trigger, you know, the big one. And I went 645 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 3: to a cafe before I was going on shift. I 646 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 3: thought I'll have breakfast, and I walked in. I had 647 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 3: the newspaper and I opened it up and there they 648 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 3: are on the front cover, and I've the tears started. 649 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 3: I've I've had to pull myself together. People sort of 650 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 3: looking at me because I'm in uniform. And I've got 651 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 3: back in the car and I thought, okay, deep breaths, 652 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 3: deep breaths, right, all the all the techniques to right. 653 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 3: So I go to the counter and autumn breakfast, and 654 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 3: then I just remember the barrista came over to the 655 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 3: girl and the on the cash register, and then the 656 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 3: girl said, it's fine, It's taken care of and I 657 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 3: said what and she said on a flow, he has 658 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: paid for your breakfast, and she said, thank you so 659 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 3: much for what you do. And I just and that. 660 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 3: I just thought of those two young dads and I 661 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 3: just and I lost it and it was so embarrassing, 662 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 3: but I just sat tears, isn't it. Yeah, so brought 663 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 3: it back. But how nice people are and how good 664 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 3: But these two young blakes, their families would never see 665 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 3: them again. 666 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: And also the appreciation that, yeah, moment of kindness amongst 667 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 2: the chaos. 668 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you have to let it out. And I 669 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 3: learned that, and I, you know, I reflected on that, 670 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 3: but look, it reinforced with me. We had a government 671 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: that needed to go because they'd lost their moral radar 672 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 3: and they weren't listening to the science. They were just 673 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 3: listening to mates who didn't have much between there is 674 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 3: and wanted to make profits. And you know, I was 675 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 3: dealing with misinformation a certain part of the media, personal 676 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 3: attacks and because anyone who doesn't listen to what they 677 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 3: want to say, and I just thought, this is sick, 678 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 3: you know, And I hope and I always thought of 679 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 3: the UK. Margaret Thatcher was the first prime minister who 680 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 3: understood climate change. Because she was a scientist. She was 681 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 3: the one who said we've got to take action on 682 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 3: climate way back then. And so it's been a both 683 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 3: sides of politics. So yeah, it's a given it's changing 684 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 3: a bit now. But why can't Australia be like that? 685 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 3: We burn, we flood? You know, I can't you see this? 686 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: Was there ever a light at the end of the 687 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 2: tunnel where you thought were you know, it's starting to 688 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 2: die down, it's starting to get control here, We're starting 689 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 2: to take charge of these fires. Shall I say? No? 690 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 3: It was sudden because it was just getting worse and worse. 691 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 3: And what would happen. We'd get a couple of days 692 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 3: low in the weather, maybe three days, and then we'd 693 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 3: look at the forecasts, so it's going to be forty 694 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 3: five degrees again and look at the gale force winds 695 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 3: and we got hundreds of kilometers of fire front. They're 696 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 3: all going to you know, bad, just keep going. It 697 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 3: suddenly rained, but it didn't just rain, it poured and 698 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 3: people were flooded. So we went from I went from 699 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 3: hosing fires to hosing mud out of people's hands. And 700 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 3: this is the trend. And you know, the basic the 701 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 3: basic science behind it is for every one degree rise 702 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 3: in temperature, the atmosphere holds seven percent more water. So, 703 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 3: as the insurance industry will tell you, in Australia, most 704 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 3: of the rain now comes in violent downpaws and causes 705 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 3: flash flooding and then river and flooding flood. So we 706 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 3: had record floods, floods like we've never had before. 707 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 2: One minute, Like you said, you know, you're dealing with 708 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 2: the fires of relief because you've got the rain, but 709 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: too much of it. You're facing a whole different catastrophic 710 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 2: event there, aren't you. 711 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it was it was more predictable. The floods 712 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 3: were more predictable, particularly when the rivers were flooding and 713 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 3: going downstream, but the downpaws weren't. The flash floods and 714 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 3: people lost their lives. So, and this is what we've 715 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 3: seen worldwide. We call it climate whiplash. You go from 716 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 3: one extreme to the other and it's becoming more plash. 717 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 718 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 3: So it was such a relief that the fires were out, 719 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 3: but then we had thousands of homeless because of these floods. 720 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 3: And we had three years in twenty twenty twenty one, 721 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 3: particularly twenty twenty two, and it was we had a 722 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 3: triple La Nina event three years in a row and 723 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 3: it's only happened a couple of times before. But yeah, 724 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 3: so we're getting strange weather and strange climatic patterns. But 725 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 3: there it's all in the extreme end. You know, nothing's 726 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 3: nothing's down the bottom. It's all banged, big punches and 727 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 3: communities getting hit over and over, so they get burnt 728 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 3: out and they get flooded, then they get flooded again. 729 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 2: So there was never a finish line. Then there was 730 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 2: never this is the end of it. It was just 731 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: one thing rolling into another, that whiplash going back and forth, 732 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 2: you know, in my head as there was this big 733 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: event and it doesn't I suppose it never ends for 734 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 2: you guys, does it? 735 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 3: No, it doesn't. And there's day to day stuff. But look, 736 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 3: the big strategic thing is to get the political class 737 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 3: to say, you know what, we're going to actually get 738 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 3: a bit of courage on board and do what needs 739 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 3: to be done. And it was so gratifying, I have 740 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 3: to say it to see that government that had been 741 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 3: in for a decade, a decade of climate and action 742 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 3: swept out, swept out and a lot of independence coming in. 743 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 3: Who people didn't trust the two big parties anymore because 744 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 3: I was so much alike. And so we had half 745 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 3: a dozen I think seven Independence Community Independence. And one 746 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 3: of them was a journalist who was with me in 747 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 3: California and when she did her speech to Parliament, she said, 748 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 3: I was in California at this major fire with a 749 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 3: former fire chief, Greg Mullins, and I just realized I've 750 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 3: got to do something about climate and I thought, how 751 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 3: nice is that? And things have changed, there's action taking place, 752 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 3: and you know, there's some worldwide events in the US, 753 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 3: for example, a little put it back a little bit, 754 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 3: but there's hope. Now there's a lot of China's doing 755 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 3: a heap in the renewables space. But you know there's 756 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,479 Speaker 3: other things going on there, of course, but there's cause 757 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,320 Speaker 3: for hope. And you can't give in to doom. 758 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 2: It can't be ignored, especially when someone like that happens. 759 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 3: But look, we're on a trajectory. I think the private 760 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 3: sector is investing a lot of money into renewaballs. We're 761 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,399 Speaker 3: not reducing emissions yet, but we're getting close to being 762 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 3: peak of missions and then it'll drop. And I'm not 763 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 3: giving up. You know, I've got grand kids. 764 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 2: But I suppose you can't give up, mate. It's not 765 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 2: that you know, you've got that state of mind that 766 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, it seems like that you'll be doing this, mate, 767 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 2: until until you take your last breath. Mate, by the 768 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 2: sounds of it. And I always say to people as 769 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 2: well with you know when I say, oh, I can't 770 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 2: wait to retire, and my wife's like, and you're never 771 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,160 Speaker 2: going to have a tire, you know. And I could 772 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 2: sort of see myself in usug where you know, you're 773 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 2: just going to keep going and keep going and keep 774 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 2: going and keep going. And what does the future hold 775 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 2: for Greg Mullins? Where are you at right now? Can 776 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 2: you step away or would you want to step away? No? 777 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 3: And look, people talk about retirement and the old the 778 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 3: old view of retirement was you get a rocking chair 779 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 3: and sit in the corner and read a book or something. 780 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 3: In that way, there's life to be lived out, you know. Yeah. 781 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 3: I love life, and I love my family and my friends, 782 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 3: and I live in a magnificent part of the world 783 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 3: of rebuilt mum and Dad's home that they built in 784 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 3: the nineteen fifties. And I'm back. I look at the 785 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 3: big tree out the front that I used to climb 786 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 3: sixty years ago when I was a kid. And just think, 787 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,919 Speaker 3: how lucky am I. I'm doing stuff that I love 788 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 3: and I'm seeing a difference, and not saying I made 789 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,879 Speaker 3: the difference, But there's people have waken up and look out. 790 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 3: Of every bad thing, some good comes. And those terrible fires, 791 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 3: worse fires in Australia history, the biggest, the most hamous, 792 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 3: lost all the rest. People wake up and went, oh 793 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 3: my god, and they went and this government lied to 794 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,959 Speaker 3: us and they swept them out of power. And I thought, ah, 795 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 3: there's hope, you know there. And there's as I said, 796 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,720 Speaker 3: this climate action happening and way above my pay grade, 797 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 3: and some very smart people doing incredible things, and really 798 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 3: good moral politicians leading the way. And I feel good 799 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 3: about that. And so I'll just keep doing my little bit, 800 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 3: whether it's locally going to a house fire or whatever, 801 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 3: or taking charge of a bush fire, or writing a 802 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 3: submission to a Senate inquiry or whatever. But I'll just 803 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,919 Speaker 3: keep doing what I'm doing, and I hope it makes 804 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 3: a bit of a difference. 805 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 2: And well, listen, I rarely use this word, and I 806 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 2: don't think I don't like to use them. I think 807 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 2: they're overused, but make you're a hero. Honestly, you are 808 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 2: legend and a hero. And I say that not lightly 809 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 2: because I've seen a few heroes and a few legends, 810 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 2: but mate, you're certainly one of them. And thank you 811 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 2: ever so much for coming on my podcast, head Game. 812 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 2: It's been a fascinating chat. 813 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 3: Thank you for that coming from someone like you, I'm 814 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 3: very humbled, I. 815 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,760 Speaker 2: Mean, and I'm humbled to be self pleader you mate. 816 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 3: Thanks again, Greg, Thanks Ann. 817 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 2: Greg Mullins is the author of Firestorm. If you'd like 818 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 2: to check it out, I'll link the details in the 819 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 2: show notes. Thanks for listening to this episode of head Game. 820 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,399 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed it, please leave me a review. I'm 821 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,120 Speaker 2: at Middleton. Catch you in the next episode.