Speaker 1: This is part two of a two part series. If
Speaker 1: you haven't yet, go and listen to the spiritual leader
Speaker 1: of Sydney's PROASIS network. When Asier Spy Chief Mike Burgess
Speaker 1: delivered his annual Threat Assessment earlier this year, it was
Speaker 1: widely seen as a recruitment drive.
Speaker 2: A well placed, well motivated, and well supported human source
Speaker 2: can collect information broadly or very precisely. They can ask questions,
Speaker 2: draw inferences, and prioritize.
Speaker 1: He talked about the crucial role of human intelligence in
Speaker 1: asio's work and seeing the praises of the people who
Speaker 1: make huge sacrifices in secret to keep Australians safe.
Speaker 2: How human sources make significant personal sacrifice to work with ASIO,
Speaker 2: diverting time and effort they might otherwise spend on families,
Speaker 2: livelihoods and recreation. Fundamentally, they do this for Australia and
Speaker 2: their fellow Australians. Their secret work protects Australians safety, security
Speaker 2: and prosperity, and is done without public fanfare or recognition,
Speaker 2: even by their closest family and friends.
Speaker 1: But while Burgess insistent in informants collecting intelligence for ASIO
Speaker 1: are valued, ABC investigative reporter Sean Rubinstein Dunlop has revealed
Speaker 1: a different side to this dangerous work today, the reality
Speaker 1: of working with ASIO and what can happen when you leave.
Speaker 3: Sean.
Speaker 1: What have we heard from ASIO spy chief Mike Burgess
Speaker 1: about the threat of a religiously motivated terror attack in Australia.
Speaker 3: Well, last year ASIO increased the terrorism threat level. They
Speaker 3: brought it up from possible to probable.
Speaker 2: We raised the national terrorism threat level in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four and I do not anticipate being able to lower
Speaker 2: it for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 3: And that was after a series of attacks and thwarted
Speaker 3: terrorst plots in Australia. Across the world, intelligence agencies in
Speaker 3: the West, in the UK and Europe, for example, a
Speaker 3: warning of the same thing. They're saying that there's a
Speaker 3: resurgence in the terrorism threat from multiple ideologies, including the
Speaker 3: far right, but that the most pressing threat is again
Speaker 3: the threat of so called Islamist terrorism. At Mike Burgess's
Speaker 3: annual AZIO Threat Assessment in February, he said that the
Speaker 3: Islamic State terrorist Group and Al Qaeder were reviving and
Speaker 3: renewing their capabilities.
Speaker 2: Traditional transnational terrorist groups such as Islamic State, Al Qaeder
Speaker 2: and their affiliates are explorting permissive spaces to revive and
Speaker 2: renew their capabilities, particularly in Afghanistan and parts of Africa.
Speaker 3: And he also said the wars in the Middle East,
Speaker 3: and of course the war in Gaza is ongoing.
Speaker 2: The war in the Middle East has not yet directly
Speaker 2: inspired terrorism in Australia, but it is prompting protest, exacerbating division,
Speaker 2: undermining social cohesion and elevating intolerance.
Speaker 3: And that was increasing the threat of terrorism.
Speaker 1: And one of the key tools that ASIO has is
Speaker 1: human intelligence. Officers. You've talked about your source who has
Speaker 1: done this work, So can you tell me about human
Speaker 1: what you learned about how ASIO uses human intelligence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's really an extraordinary story and it's
Speaker 3: been a pretty incredible ride for me and for our
Speaker 3: team as well. Marcus is a former ASIO undercover agent
Speaker 3: who was recruited from the Middle East back in twenty
Speaker 3: sixteen twenty seventeen by AZIO to infiltrate the radical Islamist
Speaker 3: community in Sydney. Can you tell us your name and
Speaker 3: what you did in Australia.
Speaker 4: Mike Elias is Marcus. I worked for as an undercover
Speaker 4: agent for about six years, I was pretending I am
Speaker 4: an extrememist. I was pretending I was supporter of isl Isis.
Speaker 3: He came over here and he he worked as an
Speaker 3: imam and teacher in radical prayer centers and in covert groups.
Speaker 3: Marcus contacted me more than a year ago, not long
Speaker 3: after the first Jihadis terrorist attack in Australia in several years.
Speaker 3: There was a you might remember early last year, a
Speaker 3: teenage boy stabbed Bishop mar Mari Emmanuel in Sydney during
Speaker 3: a live dreamed church service and was charged with terrorism
Speaker 3: over that what people are praying, you're gonna come and
Speaker 3: do this. And I got this email out of the
Speaker 3: blue from this guy, Marcus, who claimed to be a
Speaker 3: former as O undercover agent, and said that that attack
Speaker 3: could have been prevented. It's not always you get an
Speaker 3: email like that, but speaking with Marcus over several months,
Speaker 3: I realized that he had credible information that only someone
Speaker 3: on the inside could know. So we went overseas and
Speaker 3: interviewed him. Astonishingly, he decided to put his face on camera,
Speaker 3: identify himself rather than by his real name, and tell
Speaker 3: Australians about what he witnessed.
Speaker 4: There were several comments encouraging doing something like this towards
Speaker 4: the bishop. This is how Muja he didn't deal with
Speaker 4: those who attacked our profit.
Speaker 1: This will shut.
Speaker 4: Him up, this will cut his tongue off.
Speaker 3: He said that he warned as about threats to the
Speaker 3: bishop starting two years before the attack.
Speaker 4: Multiple times. I shot them messages on my phone. I
Speaker 4: used to send them secretly in shots as well with
Speaker 4: contacts of people who posted those posts.
Speaker 3: And in our investigation we uncovered other apparent intelligence failures
Speaker 3: in the lead up to that attack in the Sydney
Speaker 3: suburb of Wakeley. I mean, Marcus took huge risks to
Speaker 3: do this interview. He was risking jail time, still risk
Speaker 3: being charged for speaking about Asio's secret work. So it
Speaker 3: was an extraordinary step that he took, and he took
Speaker 3: that because he believed the public needed to know and
Speaker 3: there was huge public interest in him telling his story.
Speaker 1: After the break, Asio response, Sean, what has happened to
Speaker 1: Marcus since he spoke out? Have you kept in touch?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, we're in touch regularly. He's in hiding in
Speaker 3: an undisclosed location overseas. He's been there since before our
Speaker 3: story went to air, and he's basically in limbo trying
Speaker 3: to work out what his next step is and how
Speaker 3: he can rebuild his life. He left Australia back in
Speaker 3: twenty two twenty three after his relationship with Asio deteriorated.
Speaker 3: He was charged with some assault offenses, charges that were
Speaker 3: ultimately withdrawn, but following that he said that Asio lost
Speaker 3: interest in him and he had to leave Australia and
Speaker 3: go back home. He since then has said that he
Speaker 3: feels betrayed. At the same time, since our story went
Speaker 3: to air, he's been receiving threats that have been published
Speaker 3: online by extremists. Wissam Hadad has come out and repeatedly
Speaker 3: called Marcus an apostate and an enemy of Islam. In
Speaker 3: the Jihadi community, there's nothing worse than being called that,
Speaker 3: and words like that have been used to justify attacks
Speaker 3: on people in the past. Not saying that Dad himself
Speaker 3: has called for attacks, but he's using this very troubling
Speaker 3: language and that has Marcus very worried indeed.
Speaker 1: So what is ASIO had to say about Marcus's situation?
Speaker 3: Well, look, it's very rare that ASIO gives a statement
Speaker 3: on the record when we do stories about them, but
Speaker 3: in this case, they took the step of doing that,
Speaker 3: and they said that they wanted to put on the
Speaker 3: record that human sources are critical to asio's success and
Speaker 3: make significant sacrifice to help us protect Australia and Australians,
Speaker 3: but they went a lot harder than that too. In
Speaker 3: response to Marcus's claims that he warned them about threats
Speaker 3: to Bishop mar Maari Emmanuel, they declined to confirm whether
Speaker 3: they knew about any threats, but they rejected suggestions that
Speaker 3: they ignored intelligence about any attack. They said that the
Speaker 3: insinuation AZIO wouldn't act on intelligence about a terrorist attack
Speaker 3: is quote as false as it is offensive to officers
Speaker 3: who work twenty four to seven to keep Australians safe.
Speaker 3: Really strong words there. They said they'd carefully reviewed their
Speaker 3: records and they stood by their decisions and conduct in
Speaker 3: the matters we were canvassing, including of course, the way
Speaker 3: Marcus's time ended with ASIO. And they said that some
Speaker 3: of the claims we'd put to them contained errors of fact,
Speaker 3: fabrications and misrepresentations, but they wouldn't say what those were,
Speaker 3: And I should just say that everything we put to
Speaker 3: air was thoroughly fact checked and verified.
Speaker 1: And suan Since the start of the new government in Syria,
Speaker 1: we've seen a resurgence in ISIS activity there. How do
Speaker 1: you expect that to reshape our security situation here at home.
Speaker 3: I mean, we've seen an increase recently in the number
Speaker 3: of Islamic State attacks in Syria. They're obviously opposed to
Speaker 3: the new Syrian government. They believe that there should be
Speaker 3: one Islamic state ruled by a very regressive interpretation of
Speaker 3: Sharia law. It's yet to be seen what will happen
Speaker 3: in Australia, but we know that international situations have flow
Speaker 3: on effects here. And it's not just in Syria where
Speaker 3: we've seen a resurgence in Islamic States activity. For several
Speaker 3: years now, they've been rebuilding in what they call their
Speaker 3: provinces in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. They've become a
Speaker 3: group that's spread across multiple geographic locations, but is still
Speaker 3: very centrally organized, and authorities are on alert. Across the West,
Speaker 3: we've seen a sharp increase in the number of attacks
Speaker 3: and plots, particularly last year in Russia, in Iran, earlier
Speaker 3: this year in New Orleans, and we know that Australian
Speaker 3: authorities are worried about the same thing. Happening here. I mean,
Speaker 3: through our investigation, we've seen the way this network in
Speaker 3: Australia has been re energizing itself, the way that Wissum
Speaker 3: her Dad has been working with terrorist leaders who have
Speaker 3: recently been released from jail, and he's now got a
Speaker 3: sister prayer center in Melbourne working hand in hand with him.
Speaker 3: So it's certainly increasing the tempo of what authorities need
Speaker 3: to look at here. And we know as well that
Speaker 3: it's a few years after a war abroad that you
Speaker 3: start to see terrorist activity domestic. So we saw that
Speaker 3: after the Iraq war, we saw it after the war
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan. And the current fear is around what will
Speaker 3: people do who are extremely angry about the human rights
Speaker 3: situation and many many deaths in Gaza, what might they
Speaker 3: do here under the influence of jihadi preachers poisoning their minds.
Speaker 1: Sean, thank you so much for attacking the time to speak.
Speaker 3: With this my pleasure.
Speaker 1: You can watch Sean Rubinstein Dunlop's Four Corners report entitled
Speaker 1: The Agent Inside an iView or YouTube and read his
Speaker 1: reporting on ABC News Online. Also in the news, the
Speaker 1: government has announced a Japanese company will build new warships
Speaker 1: for the Royal Australian Navy at a cost of ten
Speaker 1: billion dollars. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries will build the new warships
Speaker 1: to replace ones that have been in use since the
Speaker 1: end of World War II, and Foreign Minister Penny Wong
Speaker 1: has worn there's a risk that there will be no
Speaker 1: Palestine left to recognize if a path to a two
Speaker 1: state solution is not created. The government is under a
Speaker 1: new pressure to recognize Palestinian statehood after several of Australia's
Speaker 1: allies indicated that we use the September UN meeting in
Speaker 1: New York to do so. When asked about Australia's intention
Speaker 1: to recognize Palestine, Senator Wong reiterated was a matter of when,
Speaker 1: not if. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll be
Speaker 1: back tomorrow.