WEBVTT - Part 2: A warning from an undercover ASIO informant 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.600 This is part two of a two part series. If 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:05.680 you haven't yet, go and listen to the spiritual leader 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:11.200 of Sydney's PROASIS network. When Asier Spy Chief Mike Burgess 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.239 delivered his annual Threat Assessment earlier this year, it was 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:16.000 widely seen as a recruitment drive. 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.800 A well placed, well motivated, and well supported human source 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:24.840 can collect information broadly or very precisely. They can ask questions, 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:26.920 draw inferences, and prioritize. 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.920 He talked about the crucial role of human intelligence in 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.120 asio's work and seeing the praises of the people who 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.160 make huge sacrifices in secret to keep Australians safe. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:41.000 How human sources make significant personal sacrifice to work with ASIO, 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.360 diverting time and effort they might otherwise spend on families, 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.000 livelihoods and recreation. Fundamentally, they do this for Australia and 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:53.760 their fellow Australians. Their secret work protects Australians safety, security 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.120 and prosperity, and is done without public fanfare or recognition, 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.000 even by their closest family and friends. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.640 But while Burgess insistent in informants collecting intelligence for ASIO 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:10.080 are valued, ABC investigative reporter Sean Rubinstein Dunlop has revealed 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:18.280 a different side to this dangerous work today, the reality 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.760 of working with ASIO and what can happen when you leave. 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:31.000 Sean. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.680 What have we heard from ASIO spy chief Mike Burgess 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.720 about the threat of a religiously motivated terror attack in Australia. 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:43.600 Well, last year ASIO increased the terrorism threat level. They 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.720 brought it up from possible to probable. 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.760 We raised the national terrorism threat level in twenty twenty 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.520 four and I do not anticipate being able to lower 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:54.000 it for the foreseeable future. 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:59.600 And that was after a series of attacks and thwarted 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:05.960 terrorst plots in Australia. Across the world, intelligence agencies in 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:10.320 the West, in the UK and Europe, for example, a 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:14.640 warning of the same thing. They're saying that there's a 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:20.960 resurgence in the terrorism threat from multiple ideologies, including the 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.280 far right, but that the most pressing threat is again 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:31.359 the threat of so called Islamist terrorism. At Mike Burgess's 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:36.440 annual AZIO Threat Assessment in February, he said that the 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.680 Islamic State terrorist Group and Al Qaeder were reviving and 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.839 renewing their capabilities. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.600 Traditional transnational terrorist groups such as Islamic State, Al Qaeder 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.400 and their affiliates are explorting permissive spaces to revive and 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:56.000 renew their capabilities, particularly in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.320 And he also said the wars in the Middle East, 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.640 and of course the war in Gaza is ongoing. 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:04.919 The war in the Middle East has not yet directly 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.639 inspired terrorism in Australia, but it is prompting protest, exacerbating division, 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:13.279 undermining social cohesion and elevating intolerance. 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.880 And that was increasing the threat of terrorism. 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.920 And one of the key tools that ASIO has is 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.080 human intelligence. Officers. You've talked about your source who has 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.160 done this work, So can you tell me about human 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.480 what you learned about how ASIO uses human intelligence. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.920 Yeah, I mean, it's really an extraordinary story and it's 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.760 been a pretty incredible ride for me and for our 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:45.400 team as well. Marcus is a former ASIO undercover agent 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.240 who was recruited from the Middle East back in twenty 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:56.280 sixteen twenty seventeen by AZIO to infiltrate the radical Islamist 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.760 community in Sydney. Can you tell us your name and 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.040 what you did in Australia. 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:09.560 Mike Elias is Marcus. I worked for as an undercover 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:16.080 agent for about six years, I was pretending I am 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:25.760 an extrememist. I was pretending I was supporter of isl Isis. 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.200 He came over here and he he worked as an 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:37.800 imam and teacher in radical prayer centers and in covert groups. 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:43.320 Marcus contacted me more than a year ago, not long 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:48.480 after the first Jihadis terrorist attack in Australia in several years. 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.080 There was a you might remember early last year, a 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:59.440 teenage boy stabbed Bishop mar Mari Emmanuel in Sydney during 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:04.400 a live dreamed church service and was charged with terrorism 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.359 over that what people are praying, you're gonna come and 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:15.080 do this. And I got this email out of the 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:20.440 blue from this guy, Marcus, who claimed to be a 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:25.640 former as O undercover agent, and said that that attack 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.320 could have been prevented. It's not always you get an 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.640 email like that, but speaking with Marcus over several months, 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.159 I realized that he had credible information that only someone 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:44.920 on the inside could know. So we went overseas and 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:50.479 interviewed him. Astonishingly, he decided to put his face on camera, 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:56.120 identify himself rather than by his real name, and tell 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.600 Australians about what he witnessed. 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:06.240 There were several comments encouraging doing something like this towards 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:11.200 the bishop. This is how Muja he didn't deal with 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.520 those who attacked our profit. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.839 This will shut. 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:22.560 Him up, this will cut his tongue off. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.960 He said that he warned as about threats to the 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.279 bishop starting two years before the attack. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.920 Multiple times. I shot them messages on my phone. I 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.880 used to send them secretly in shots as well with 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.360 contacts of people who posted those posts. 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:48.520 And in our investigation we uncovered other apparent intelligence failures 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.160 in the lead up to that attack in the Sydney 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.560 suburb of Wakeley. I mean, Marcus took huge risks to 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.920 do this interview. He was risking jail time, still risk 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:06.200 being charged for speaking about Asio's secret work. So it 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:09.240 was an extraordinary step that he took, and he took 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:13.000 that because he believed the public needed to know and 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.760 there was huge public interest in him telling his story. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:31.520 After the break, Asio response, Sean, what has happened to 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.120 Marcus since he spoke out? Have you kept in touch? 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:38.080 Yeah, Look, we're in touch regularly. He's in hiding in 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:44.760 an undisclosed location overseas. He's been there since before our 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:50.040 story went to air, and he's basically in limbo trying 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.960 to work out what his next step is and how 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:59.080 he can rebuild his life. He left Australia back in 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:04.720 twenty two twenty three after his relationship with Asio deteriorated. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.520 He was charged with some assault offenses, charges that were 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:15.600 ultimately withdrawn, but following that he said that Asio lost 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:19.880 interest in him and he had to leave Australia and 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:24.200 go back home. He since then has said that he 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.480 feels betrayed. At the same time, since our story went 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.800 to air, he's been receiving threats that have been published 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:39.240 online by extremists. Wissam Hadad has come out and repeatedly 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:44.600 called Marcus an apostate and an enemy of Islam. In 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:50.080 the Jihadi community, there's nothing worse than being called that, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:56.119 and words like that have been used to justify attacks 0:08:56.160 --> 0:09:01.480 on people in the past. Not saying that Dad himself 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:07.320 has called for attacks, but he's using this very troubling 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.240 language and that has Marcus very worried indeed. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.040 So what is ASIO had to say about Marcus's situation? 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.280 Well, look, it's very rare that ASIO gives a statement 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.280 on the record when we do stories about them, but 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.600 in this case, they took the step of doing that, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.000 and they said that they wanted to put on the 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:32.880 record that human sources are critical to asio's success and 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:38.920 make significant sacrifice to help us protect Australia and Australians, 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.720 but they went a lot harder than that too. In 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:47.280 response to Marcus's claims that he warned them about threats 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.000 to Bishop mar Maari Emmanuel, they declined to confirm whether 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:55.720 they knew about any threats, but they rejected suggestions that 0:09:55.800 --> 0:10:01.040 they ignored intelligence about any attack. They said that the 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:05.440 insinuation AZIO wouldn't act on intelligence about a terrorist attack 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:09.599 is quote as false as it is offensive to officers 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.760 who work twenty four to seven to keep Australians safe. 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.679 Really strong words there. They said they'd carefully reviewed their 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:22.720 records and they stood by their decisions and conduct in 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.040 the matters we were canvassing, including of course, the way 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:31.680 Marcus's time ended with ASIO. And they said that some 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:36.240 of the claims we'd put to them contained errors of fact, 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:41.680 fabrications and misrepresentations, but they wouldn't say what those were, 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.600 And I should just say that everything we put to 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.719 air was thoroughly fact checked and verified. 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.200 And suan Since the start of the new government in Syria, 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.920 we've seen a resurgence in ISIS activity there. How do 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.559 you expect that to reshape our security situation here at home. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.160 I mean, we've seen an increase recently in the number 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:08.400 of Islamic State attacks in Syria. They're obviously opposed to 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:13.480 the new Syrian government. They believe that there should be 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:20.040 one Islamic state ruled by a very regressive interpretation of 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.600 Sharia law. It's yet to be seen what will happen 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:31.160 in Australia, but we know that international situations have flow 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.480 on effects here. And it's not just in Syria where 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.920 we've seen a resurgence in Islamic States activity. For several 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.720 years now, they've been rebuilding in what they call their 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:49.000 provinces in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. They've become a 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:54.800 group that's spread across multiple geographic locations, but is still 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:00.960 very centrally organized, and authorities are on alert. Across the West, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:06.520 we've seen a sharp increase in the number of attacks 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:12.240 and plots, particularly last year in Russia, in Iran, earlier 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.920 this year in New Orleans, and we know that Australian 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:20.480 authorities are worried about the same thing. Happening here. I mean, 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.560 through our investigation, we've seen the way this network in 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.400 Australia has been re energizing itself, the way that Wissum 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.560 her Dad has been working with terrorist leaders who have 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.839 recently been released from jail, and he's now got a 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:43.559 sister prayer center in Melbourne working hand in hand with him. 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:48.640 So it's certainly increasing the tempo of what authorities need 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.000 to look at here. And we know as well that 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.960 it's a few years after a war abroad that you 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:01.679 start to see terrorist activity domestic. So we saw that 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.000 after the Iraq war, we saw it after the war 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:10.880 in Afghanistan. And the current fear is around what will 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:16.800 people do who are extremely angry about the human rights 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:22.040 situation and many many deaths in Gaza, what might they 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.960 do here under the influence of jihadi preachers poisoning their minds. 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.120 Sean, thank you so much for attacking the time to speak. 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.360 With this my pleasure. 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:39.360 You can watch Sean Rubinstein Dunlop's Four Corners report entitled 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.600 The Agent Inside an iView or YouTube and read his 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:55.360 reporting on ABC News Online. Also in the news, the 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.559 government has announced a Japanese company will build new warships 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.240 for the Royal Australian Navy at a cost of ten 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:05.520 billion dollars. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries will build the new warships 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.080 to replace ones that have been in use since the 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.560 end of World War II, and Foreign Minister Penny Wong 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.560 has worn there's a risk that there will be no 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.880 Palestine left to recognize if a path to a two 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:20.240 state solution is not created. The government is under a 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.440 new pressure to recognize Palestinian statehood after several of Australia's 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.160 allies indicated that we use the September UN meeting in 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.400 New York to do so. When asked about Australia's intention 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.200 to recognize Palestine, Senator Wong reiterated was a matter of when, 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.680 not if. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll be 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.680 back tomorrow.