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Speaker 1: As you will recall, there's been a little period since

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Speaker 1: the state government announced it would look at raising the

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Speaker 1: age of criminal responsibility here in South Australia. They announced

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Speaker 1: this earlier in the year and they've been considering what

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Speaker 1: to do. Obviously, put the bait going on behind closed doors,

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Speaker 1: and there was a your say survey open so you

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Speaker 1: could literally have you say, give your opinion on that

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Speaker 1: to the state government as to whether the age of

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Speaker 1: criminal responsibility should be raised from ten currently to twelve,

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Speaker 1: maybe even fourteen. Victoria yesterday announced they would put it

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Speaker 1: at twelve. They were looking at raising it to fourteen,

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Speaker 1: but obviously they felt twelve will suffice. Here in South Australia.

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Speaker 1: It is currently at ten, and there are many people

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Speaker 1: who say that is too young, and I'm open to

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Speaker 1: that argument. But if a child is ten by then

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Speaker 1: they do know the difference between right and wrong, and

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Speaker 1: if they commit a serious crime and there's no doubt

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Speaker 1: it's them, well they should face some sort of penalty.

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Speaker 1: That's where the law currently sits anyway, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: overly in favor of changing it, but i am open

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Speaker 1: to a good argument, and I suspect i'll get one

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Speaker 1: from Alec Lazarevich, who is President of the Law Society

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Speaker 1: of South Australia.

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Speaker 2: Alex, good morning, good morning, thank you for having me,

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: For your time. So should we raise the age of

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Speaker 1: criminal responsibility? And why should we have so?

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Speaker 2: Started The possession of the Law Society is that we

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Speaker 2: should raise the age of criminal responsibility to fourteen in

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Speaker 2: line with the recommendations of the United Nations Committee on

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Speaker 2: the Rights of the Child. And the reason for suggesting

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Speaker 2: that is that the current method is not working. So

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Speaker 2: locking children in jail might keep them away from the

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Speaker 2: community temporarily, but the evidence suggests that once they come

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Speaker 2: out of jail, or come out of the contact with

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Speaker 2: the criminal justice system at the moment, they're more likely

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Speaker 2: to re offend. So what we need to address is

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Speaker 2: that the causes of criminality in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that then a problem with the system, the education

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Speaker 1: system behind bars that a child comes out and reoffends,

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Speaker 1: because that should be the last thing that should happen

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Speaker 1: once they've been behind bars.

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Speaker 2: Fair point, But the evidence that certainly suggests that that's

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Speaker 2: not the case, So that people who do go to

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Speaker 2: prison are high likelihood of reoffending when they come out,

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Speaker 2: and what we're suggesting is that you have in place

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Speaker 2: things that are called diversion programs. So it costs about

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Speaker 2: one point three million a year to keep the child

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Speaker 2: in jail, and if you invest that money in ways

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Speaker 2: to educate people, give them opportunities away from crime, you're

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Speaker 2: far more likely to break the cycle of reoffending. And

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Speaker 2: so we're not suggesting that you raise the age of

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Speaker 2: responsibility to give a free pass to young people, but

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Speaker 2: rather we're saying, look at the evidence of programs that

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Speaker 2: are in place overseas, programs are in place in other states,

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Speaker 2: look at the ones that have positive effects on young

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Speaker 2: people in terms of reducing their behavior. Look at ways

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Speaker 2: to make them accountable for what they've done and give

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Speaker 2: them the opportunity to help turn their lives around. And

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Speaker 2: one of the really fair things about youth offending is

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Speaker 2: that it's often people from disadvantaged background, often people from

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Speaker 2: a high proportion from Aboriginal communities. Often also a high

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Speaker 2: proportion of people who've got family breakdowns, mental problems, drug problems,

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Speaker 2: and safeboard. And if it can help people deal with

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Speaker 2: those problems, they're less likely to be ending in the future.

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Speaker 1: I think there's an argument for that, and nobody wants

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Speaker 1: to see it. Child behind bars. No one wants to

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Speaker 1: see kids in prison. But the rights of a child

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Speaker 1: where we started off here the UN rights for a

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Speaker 1: child saying no children should be incarcerated under fourteen. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who have had their homes broken into,

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Speaker 1: car keys taken, cars stolen, potentially wrecked, potentially set on fire.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the period, they don't get that back.

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Speaker 1: Insurance obviously has to step in people saying, well, what

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Speaker 1: about the rights of the victim, and the victim would

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Speaker 1: expect something more to happen than a program hopefully doing

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Speaker 1: the right thing in educating people to change, because where's

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Speaker 1: the proof the diversion programs will work.

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Speaker 2: I think your first point is correct. So prime does

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Speaker 2: have a serious effect on people. There's absolutely no doubt

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Speaker 2: about that. And probably a large number of people in

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Speaker 2: the community have been the victims of a home invasion

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Speaker 2: or theft or vandalism, and we all know that those

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Speaker 2: things have an effect on you. And if you've been

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Speaker 2: a victim of violence or something like that, it's even worse.

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Speaker 2: It's gives you long term trauma. So absolutely agree with you.

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Speaker 2: About that. I absolutely agree with you that you can't

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Speaker 2: just ignore the problem. So if you ignore the problem,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to go away. But the evidence from

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Speaker 2: a lot of these programs overseas and where they've invested

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Speaker 2: the money in programs in Australia is that these programs

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Speaker 2: can actually work. And so if you can get people

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Speaker 2: to modify their behavior and turn their lives around, that's

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Speaker 2: going to be in the best interest of the community

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Speaker 2: in the medium term and long run.

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Speaker 1: So the government weighing up whether to go to twelve,

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Speaker 1: you encourage them to go to fourteen.

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Speaker 2: We've encouraged them to go to fourteen. Twelve would be

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Speaker 2: from our perspective, step in the right direction, and it's

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Speaker 2: got to be accompanied by having investment in proper programs

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Speaker 2: that are going to work.

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Speaker 1: I suppose they'd be saving money than on the prison

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Speaker 1: system and have to be diverting that into programs to assist.

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Speaker 1: That would be the logical thing to do, exactly, all right, Alex,

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Alex Lazarevich, who is president of the Law Society of

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Speaker 1: South Australia. Somebody else in favor of the change to

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Speaker 1: fourteen is Robert Sin's Green's Upper House mp here in

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Speaker 1: South Australia. Robert, good morning, Good morning, what about you've

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Speaker 1: been listening to that? What about the rights of the

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Speaker 1: victim in this where there's been a home invasion item stolen,

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Speaker 1: including a car, it leaves the victim not feeling great

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Speaker 1: that a young child then doesn't pay a price.

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Speaker 3: Well, no one suggesting that these actions don't have consequences.

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Speaker 3: And as Alex was describing, it's vital that in any

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Speaker 3: reform there's then an investment in diversion practices and the

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Speaker 3: Greens as supportive of that. There needs to be diversion

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Speaker 3: models so that these young people get the support that

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Speaker 3: they need so that they don't do this again. And

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Speaker 3: in fact, all of the research demonstrates that if these

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Speaker 3: young people do end up going into the prison system

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Speaker 3: and have a lifelong interaction with the criminal justice system,

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Speaker 3: and then they're much more likely to go on and

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Speaker 3: commit crimes in the future. So to your point, how

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Speaker 3: would victims feel? I think fundamentally a victim wants to

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Speaker 3: make sure that this isn't going to happen to someone

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Speaker 3: else in the future and actually raising the age of

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Speaker 3: criminal responsibility is a good way of achieving that outcome

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Speaker 3: because it makes the community safer in the long run.

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Speaker 1: Is their evidence diversion programs? What is a diversion program?

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Speaker 1: What does that look like? To start with?

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Speaker 3: Well, the government's doing consultation paper on this at the moment,

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Speaker 3: so they're putting forward a range of different options. It

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Speaker 3: might be that the young person gets some psychological support,

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Speaker 3: range of other support to work through and their behavior.

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Speaker 3: But you've got to ask why would a child as

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Speaker 3: young as ten or eleven be engaging in this sort

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Speaker 3: of behavior?

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Speaker 1: Have we asked because they've done it?

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Speaker 3: Well, Well, we know that they don't have the same

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Speaker 3: level of mental development as adults, so they're not in

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Speaker 3: a position to often make these these decisions and think

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Speaker 3: through through think through things in the same way as adults.

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Speaker 3: But also one of the things that the government's looking

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Speaker 3: at is ensuring too that adults aren't being or aren't

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Speaker 3: using children as surrogates to commit crime. And indeed, we

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Speaker 3: already passed a bill in the Parliament to shut down

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Speaker 3: that loophole too. So I think there's lots of things

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Speaker 3: that could be done to stop these young people from

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Speaker 3: committing anti social and potentially criminal acts simply though, ensuring

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Speaker 3: that they face the same sanctions as adults just seems

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Speaker 3: totally inappropriate and it doesn't respect the way in which

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Speaker 3: their brains are developing.

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Speaker 1: They don't face the same sanctions, so do they. They

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Speaker 1: appear before you caught to start with, and their ages

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Speaker 1: is affected clearly, and level of offending it at that

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Speaker 1: young age. It's not extensive then and hopefully it doesn't

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Speaker 1: become extensive and that's the whole point of the youth

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Speaker 1: justice system.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so the issue is they're still facing the same

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Speaker 3: level of criminal responsibility and that's the element that needs

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Speaker 3: to change. But also we have a problem at the

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Speaker 3: moment too with young people being detained for short periods

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Speaker 3: of time in adult and facilities. Now that's totally inappropriate

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Speaker 3: environment for children to be detained in and it's not

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Speaker 3: a state or appropriate environment for children and really the

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Speaker 3: government needs to take action on that and that's what

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Speaker 3: my bill before the Parliament would deal with as well.

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Speaker 3: I think it's really important that South Australia shows some

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Speaker 3: leadership on this. I mean, this is something that the

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Speaker 3: United Nations has condemned. It's totally inconsistent with the rights

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Speaker 3: of the child, and I think it's system with the

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Speaker 3: approach taken to this matter by many places around the world,

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Speaker 3: really it's time to do something about it here locally,

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Speaker 3: and that's why the Greens have been pushing it.

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Speaker 1: All right. The Victorian government seemed to lack the courage

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Speaker 1: yesterday to go to fourteen. They've raised it to twelve,

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Speaker 1: So I suppose that's halfway to what you'd be hoping

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Speaker 1: happens here in South Australia. Do you think they've lost courage?

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Speaker 1: Is that how you see it?

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Speaker 3: Well, look, it's better than nothing, but it's very disappointing.

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Speaker 3: And you know, my view is we need to show

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Speaker 3: leadership here in South Australia and raise the age to fourteen,

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Speaker 3: as has happened in the Act, as has happened in

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Speaker 3: other places around the world. And the other thing we're

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Speaker 3: calling for as well is to the Government to make

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Speaker 3: the submission to their discussion paper public so that we

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Speaker 3: all have access to the information that's been put on

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Speaker 3: put forward so that Parliament could make some informed decisions

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Speaker 3: around this. But really there's only eighteen months until the

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Speaker 3: next date election. I've been talking about this since this

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Speaker 3: Parliament began and the window is closing on the government

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Speaker 3: taking some action, so the Greens are calling on them

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Speaker 3: to really make this a priority and let's get this

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Speaker 3: result by the end of the year. If we're serious

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Speaker 3: in particular about tackling disadvantage facing First Nations people. This

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Speaker 3: is a really vital reform because fifty percent of these

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Speaker 3: young people are First Nations young people too, so it's

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Speaker 3: really important that we get this done.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's any reason for a child to

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Speaker 1: go to jail? I mean, if an eleven year old,

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Speaker 1: for instance, commits a murder, should or manslaughter, should they

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Speaker 1: go to jail?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Look, I don't think that a jail environment is

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Speaker 3: appropriate for young people, and I think it's a matter

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Speaker 3: of principle. It's it's simply not appropriate. And all the

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Speaker 3: research demonstrates that children do not have the same mental

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Speaker 3: capacity as adults, and that really needs to be the

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Speaker 3: fundamental principle that informs our justice system. Why on earth

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Speaker 3: would a child commit a crime like that. There's something

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Speaker 3: seriously wrong and we need to look into that.

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Speaker 1: No argument with that, but there has to be consequences

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Speaker 1: for whether it's seriously wrong or not, there should be consequences.

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Speaker 3: So no one's suggesting there shouldn't be consequences, but well,

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Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be consequences for young people

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Speaker 3: that do the wrong thing. But do I think jail

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Speaker 3: is appropriate? No, I don't, And because the evidence demonstrates

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Speaker 3: that that doesn't work, and it's inconsistent with all of

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Speaker 3: the evidence around the way that child children's brains developed.

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Speaker 1: So if they steal a car, for instance, and lead

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Speaker 1: police on a joy ride that leads to the death

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Speaker 1: of an innocent motorist or pedestrian diversion program, don't do

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Speaker 1: it again.

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm not going to go into the part

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Speaker 3: of kind of going through each and every crime that

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Speaker 3: a child might commit. I don't agree with the general

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Speaker 3: principle that children should be sent to jail, and I

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Speaker 3: think children belong in schools. They don't belong in prison.

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Speaker 3: Some jurisdictions, when they've approached this, have actually carved out

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Speaker 3: particular classes of crime. You know, open to having that discussion,

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Speaker 3: but that's not the direction that I want to go down.

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Speaker 3: I'm fighting for the principle here that we need to

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Speaker 3: actually raise the age of criminal responsibility to fourteen, and

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Speaker 3: let's get that done and join other jurisdictions around the world,

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Speaker 3: and indeed in our own country, in treating these children

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Speaker 3: with the respect that they deserve in terms of recognizing

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Speaker 3: their rights, but also ensuring that we have a safer

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Speaker 3: community all.

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Speaker 1: Robert Simms appreciate your time. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Matthew Greens, Upper House MP,