Speaker 1: Okay, I tell them it's the bloody you projected, Harps,
Speaker 1: It's it's Meggie. It's I feel like this is going
Speaker 1: to be fifty minutes of fucking mayhem. But that's all right.
Speaker 1: We've known each other, Yeah, we've known each other for
Speaker 1: a rock solid three minutes, and it's it's we're already
Speaker 1: having issues, which could be a sign of things to come. O. Meggie,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. What a tree? What a tree?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure? Where are you tell my? Tell my audience
Speaker 1: where you're at at the minute.
Speaker 3: Yes, So I live in New York City. I actually
Speaker 3: moved to Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: So that's right.
Speaker 2: I'm in my in my home office in Brooklyn, New York.
Speaker 1: Why why did you move there? What? What what took
Speaker 1: you there?
Speaker 2: I guess adventure.
Speaker 3: I guess growth from a business perspective and a personal perspective,
Speaker 3: and I guess, like, why not?
Speaker 2: Although, now that I reflect on it, now that you've
Speaker 2: asked me that question.
Speaker 3: And you did, we did talk about a commitment to
Speaker 3: be very courageous and open and honest in this conversation.
Speaker 2: So I want to try. I want to stay true
Speaker 2: to that. I think part of the reason honestly, Craig.
Speaker 3: Where I left was I found it a business focused
Speaker 3: on the gender pay gap and really a lot of unconscious.
Speaker 2: Bias that exists.
Speaker 3: And at the time when I left Australia seven or
Speaker 3: eight years ago, I didn't really feel like I could
Speaker 3: have as many open conversations about that topic I would
Speaker 3: have liked.
Speaker 2: And I found that in New.
Speaker 3: York City people were more open to having those conversations.
Speaker 2: I think that's different now.
Speaker 3: I think Australia has changed a lot since then, But
Speaker 3: at the time I kind of felt like I needed
Speaker 3: to go somewhere where people were more willing to have
Speaker 3: those conversations.
Speaker 1: How did you fit into Because New York is pretty chaotic.
Speaker 1: It's amazing, it's beautiful, it's a fucking tapestry of humanity
Speaker 1: and all of those things, but it's also bedlam. How
Speaker 1: have you fitted in? Ah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be chaotic for sure.
Speaker 3: And you know what's so interesting Being in Brooklyn now,
Speaker 3: I'm like, ah, just that little bit more zan, which
Speaker 3: I love.
Speaker 2: Look, you know, I was really lucky when I moved
Speaker 2: to New York.
Speaker 3: People Americans, well maybe not Americans. New Yorkers are very
Speaker 3: generous and open with their networks. Certainly that was my experience.
Speaker 3: So you'd meet someone who'd introduce you to someone, who'd
Speaker 3: invite you to a party, who'd introduce you to someone.
Speaker 3: So I kind of felt very adopted and very hugged
Speaker 3: and very embraced. But there's also very niche communities here, Craig. So, like,
Speaker 3: if you are, you know, a guitar playing softball loving,
Speaker 3: I don't know, Vegan, you can find your people, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. So there's a lot like very
Speaker 3: specific like women entrepreneur communities.
Speaker 2: Like so I kind of like found my people and
Speaker 2: that was really hard.
Speaker 1: So where'd you grow up? Meggie?
Speaker 3: So I grew up on a farm west of the
Speaker 3: Gold Coast in a place called Guanaba, like a small farm,
Speaker 3: grew up there, so school on the Goldie shout out.
Speaker 2: To sea, Queensland is listening.
Speaker 3: And went to Brisbane to study and then you know,
Speaker 3: traveled all over the East and Seaboard to different cities
Speaker 3: for work as a journalist.
Speaker 1: Wow. And have you family come over to visit you
Speaker 1: in New York?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Super lucky they come over. We have a visitor at
Speaker 2: least once a year, if not more times than that
Speaker 2: a year which is also get to have quality time
Speaker 2: with them here as well.
Speaker 1: So what was your first gig out of school or
Speaker 1: what did you study? I know you went to UNI.
Speaker 1: I know I know the answer to some of these questions,
Speaker 1: But what did you study at UNI? So?
Speaker 3: I studied business and journalism when I was at UNI,
Speaker 3: and I majored in What are I major?
Speaker 1: In?
Speaker 2: Public relations? And Italian? I think was what I majored in.
Speaker 1: I heard it was beer and nightclubs.
Speaker 3: But okay, well, yeah, that's that's well, that's true. Actually,
Speaker 3: So I went to college. I lived on campus at
Speaker 3: Cromwell College, shout out to any Cromwellians. And I really
Speaker 3: got a degree in party a master's in partying.
Speaker 2: Shall we say?
Speaker 1: Nice? Nice? Yeah? What did you think? What? What did
Speaker 1: you think you were going to do when you left?
Speaker 1: What was the was the intention to be a journo?
Speaker 2: No, it's a weird thing, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Like when you're like seventeen, you're basically like, what don't
Speaker 3: I do with the next fifty years of my life?
Speaker 2: It's so weird.
Speaker 3: I just remember, like, you know, like skimming through that
Speaker 3: book where you could like choose all the different courses,
Speaker 3: and I was like, it was just like throwing a
Speaker 3: dart at a random book. It's so random to make
Speaker 3: that decision at such a young age. I just wanted
Speaker 3: to do something with people and right, and I didn't
Speaker 3: know I didn't really want to be a journal I
Speaker 3: actually had an ex boyfriend who threw a random set
Speaker 3: of circumstances in some ways influenced me to end up
Speaker 3: becoming a journalist.
Speaker 1: So there you go. It is. It is weird, right
Speaker 1: that at seventeen I was Some would argue I'm still
Speaker 1: a more on, but I was definitely a more on
Speaker 1: at seventeen, right, I was a fucking I'm not even
Speaker 1: being self deprecating. I was a fucking idiot in terms
Speaker 1: of I didn't study it. No, I really was. I
Speaker 1: didn't pay attention. It's preoccupied with girls in sport. You know.
Speaker 1: My vision for the future was about three days write.
Speaker 1: Anything beyond that was overwhelming. And then they're like, exactly,
Speaker 1: especially when I was a kid, they're like, all right,
Speaker 1: so what do you want to do for let's say,
Speaker 1: othern't know the next half century. I don't know what
Speaker 1: I want to do next Tuesday, right right, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know if you remember this cra I felt so
Speaker 2: much pressure.
Speaker 3: I went to a very academic high school, though, but
Speaker 3: I just felt like there was a lot of pressure
Speaker 3: to like.
Speaker 2: You had to go to you just like I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's just a lot.
Speaker 3: On kids' shoulders, Like it's a lot.
Speaker 2: I just think we should all chill out. Life is long,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: I also think the idea that you need to find
Speaker 1: the thing that you're going to do for the next
Speaker 1: one hundred years is a dumb idea. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's founded in any logic, and I guess through necessity
Speaker 1: in the olden days, you know, before you were around.
Speaker 1: But I get it. But also at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think, now it's like my training partner, his daughter
Speaker 1: I've been I've known since she was a baby, and
Speaker 1: she's nineteen now. She's just doing a gym instructor's course
Speaker 1: and she doesn't really know what she's fitness instructor PT
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and she's asking me because of my background,
Speaker 1: she's asking me questions every seven minutes, right, And I see,
Speaker 1: do you know what, it doesn't matter like do it
Speaker 1: for ten minutes. You might love it, you might hate it.
Speaker 1: You could be a fucking neurosurgeon. In ten years, you
Speaker 1: could be a pilot, you could be you can be
Speaker 1: what you know. It's like, you do not need to
Speaker 1: figure it out now, figure out what you want to
Speaker 1: do in the short term. Do that because you might,
Speaker 1: I reckon, like a lot of forty year olds in
Speaker 1: the future are going to have had fifteen careers by
Speaker 1: the time they get there.
Speaker 2: Totally, totally, so it's okay. Well, and to your.
Speaker 3: Point, sometimes figuring out what you don't want to do
Speaker 3: is just as powerful that's figuring out what you do
Speaker 3: want to do. Like I remember being like fourteen or
Speaker 3: fifteen and we had to do work experience and I
Speaker 3: was like very argumentative, shocker, love to argue with my dad, debating, etc.
Speaker 2: I was that kid anyway. So I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be a lawyer. That's going to be great.
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, yeah, you're going to be a lawyer.
Speaker 3: So I did work experience with a QC like some
Speaker 3: fancy lawyer in Brisbane, and it was like it was
Speaker 3: the worst. Like I just remember these misogynistic lawyers in
Speaker 3: the elevator. I remember the way they looked at her,
Speaker 3: even though she was like more senior than them.
Speaker 2: The way they was just gross. And then the way
Speaker 2: they would look at me, and I just knew.
Speaker 3: I was like, they're never going to take me seriously,
Speaker 3: like they're always going to treat me as a second
Speaker 3: class citizen in this industry. I just kind of just
Speaker 3: and I was like, I just can't handle that. I'm
Speaker 3: going to get myself into trouble. So I just decided
Speaker 3: not to do law because of that work experience.
Speaker 1: Wow experience.
Speaker 2: So it's good though. I'm glad because otherwise I would
Speaker 2: have done law, and who knows where I would have
Speaker 2: ended up.
Speaker 1: How old were you when you had that experience, I.
Speaker 2: Reckon I was.
Speaker 3: I must have been fourteen or fifteen. I was so young,
Speaker 3: but I just knew. I was like, oh, because you know,
Speaker 3: when you're little and you're in a school or whatever,
Speaker 3: you don't really know the real world and how like
Speaker 3: people discriminate. And also, to be fair, you know, very
Speaker 3: privileged to have not experienced discrimination up until that point.
Speaker 2: But I was just like I just kind of became.
Speaker 3: Really aware of misogyny and just like I was just
Speaker 3: I could just sense it.
Speaker 2: It was a really weird experience, but I just knew.
Speaker 2: I was like, it's not for me.
Speaker 1: Wow, And so how old are you now? Sorry, I'm forty.
Speaker 2: Just had the big.
Speaker 1: Foun Hell you're a dinosaur.
Speaker 2: A right halfway to eighty, let's go.
Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to get a context of what
Speaker 1: year that experience was. So that must have been really
Speaker 1: late nineties, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yep, late yeah, ninety eight ninety nine.
Speaker 1: And so we're quarter of a century later. Has it
Speaker 1: changed a lot, a bit or not at all?
Speaker 2: What a great question.
Speaker 3: No, I think it has absolutely. I think it's changed,
Speaker 3: I really do. I mean, listen, does that still exist?
Speaker 3: Maybe I should do work experience in a law firm again, perhaps, like,
Speaker 3: but I imagine it's more veiled now. I imagine it's
Speaker 3: not as overt as it was back then. I think
Speaker 3: we've made progress, absolutely, and we will continue to make progress.
Speaker 3: So if you look at the data, the un reckons
Speaker 3: we're two hundred years away ish from equality, and so
Speaker 3: it's just like, which is like, so the good news
Speaker 3: is we're making progress progress. The bad news is it's
Speaker 3: taking too long. In my humble opinion, So you know,
Speaker 3: my whole thing is like, well, I could sit around
Speaker 3: for two hundred years and see what happens, or could
Speaker 3: try each of us in our own way to make
Speaker 3: ripple effects today, tomorrow, the next day, so that eventually
Speaker 3: things crossed, we get to a tidal wave of change,
Speaker 3: so that hopefully those sticks come down to a shorter timeframe.
Speaker 1: And so with equality in this kind of financial sense,
Speaker 1: you're talking like pay equality, I'm guessing it for this
Speaker 1: particular Yeah, so I don't even I mean, I know
Speaker 1: that it's real, but I don't even understand because I don't,
Speaker 1: like I've employed five hundred people right over the years.
Speaker 1: I don't even understand how that, like, if you're doing
Speaker 1: the same thing, Like, how do people even justify that?
Speaker 1: Because I remember you telling a story you were chatting
Speaker 1: with Luke on his podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Luke's the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've been on each other show I think,
Speaker 1: or he's definitely been on this one. But and you
Speaker 1: were talking about an experience that you had as a
Speaker 1: journo where you that other people correct me if I
Speaker 1: fuck this up, but doing the same thing as you
Speaker 1: were getting paid more and you went in and went, hey,
Speaker 1: you guys, here's an oversight, you silly guys, just so
Speaker 1: you know, and they went, no, that's just how it
Speaker 1: is essentially Yeah, that the truth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, you didn't fuck that story up. You
Speaker 2: nailed it. So yeah.
Speaker 3: So, And I think in my experience and in a
Speaker 3: lot of experiences, when you think about the gender pay gap,
Speaker 3: which impacts women and also minorities, you know, women of
Speaker 3: color are impacted to a much larger degree. When you
Speaker 3: think about that, most of it's not conscious. So it's
Speaker 3: not like my boss, my old news director, was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: let's screw over Meggie, Yeah, let's do it. It's just like
Speaker 3: they had a pool of money, they a couple of things.
Speaker 3: They probably knew that certain people were going to blow
Speaker 3: up more than others if they didn't get a certain number.
Speaker 2: And it's unconscious, right, And so actually, come this is
Speaker 2: so wild.
Speaker 3: But if you look, there's three separate studies in three
Speaker 3: different countries, Craig that have actually shown that little girls
Speaker 3: get paid less pocket money than little boys.
Speaker 2: And like, parents are not assholes, and parents.
Speaker 3: Typically want to raise their kids fairly, right, It's just
Speaker 3: that there's a perception that if I'm chopping the wood
Speaker 3: with dad in the paddock or in the backyard or
Speaker 3: whatever for the fireplace, that is quote unquote tougher work
Speaker 3: than if someone is helping around the house set the
Speaker 3: table for dinner, for example.
Speaker 2: So there is a perception that certain types of work.
Speaker 3: Is tougher or harder or whatever, and so there is
Speaker 3: a disproportionate value put on that. So you know, women
Speaker 3: dominated industries are massively paid less than men dominate industries.
Speaker 3: So for example, like childcare and nursing are paid less
Speaker 3: than say banking or insurance for example, which are more
Speaker 3: pale dominated.
Speaker 2: And actually what happens is as more women go.
Speaker 3: Into certain industries, the average wage in those industries starts
Speaker 3: to drop. So it's a deep seated like generational bias
Speaker 3: that exists that isn't even conscious for all of us,
Speaker 3: by the way, I have unconscious bias, by the way,
Speaker 3: So you are there things that we can do to
Speaker 3: make that more conscious have shifted act to me, yes,
Speaker 3: But as you.
Speaker 2: Know from your scientific.
Speaker 3: Background as well, like unconsciously, there's things that just happen
Speaker 3: because it's what we saw in the media, or it's
Speaker 3: what happened in preschool, or it's what Gramdma used to
Speaker 3: say to us. You know, So all of those factors
Speaker 3: as well as other factors like for example, women do
Speaker 3: take more time out for caring responsibilities, so that impacks
Speaker 3: the data as.
Speaker 2: Well for sure.
Speaker 3: And also women are socialized or girls are socialized to
Speaker 3: want to do certain jobs like teaching, like nursing, which
Speaker 3: historically have been paid less. So society has said, nurses,
Speaker 3: we're going to value about here. Investment bankers, y'all are
Speaker 3: the real deal. We're going to pay you a hell of.
Speaker 2: A lot more.
Speaker 3: So there's three major factors that impact it. And as
Speaker 3: I say, a lot of that's not conscious necessarily.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and I think that, yeah, it ends up
Speaker 1: where it ends up. But it's like it's it's financial,
Speaker 1: it's sociological, it's cultural, it's psychological. Like you said, I
Speaker 1: can't imagine too many parents are sitting around saying, all right,
Speaker 1: well let's give her five bucks. Let's give him eight
Speaker 1: bucks because he's got a penis. Yeah, you know, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is really interesting. All right, tell me about pep
Speaker 1: talk her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So basically to your story earlier, when I was
Speaker 3: a journal found out through a male ally actually who
Speaker 3: gave me a wink wink nudge nudge background info.
Speaker 2: He was like, yo, you're getting screwed on pay I
Speaker 2: was like.
Speaker 3: What never and and turns out, long story short, I
Speaker 3: was getting paid less. My paying conditions were quite different
Speaker 3: to my male colleagues, which I thought was bullshit. Obviously,
Speaker 3: I decided to say something because that's how I was raised,
Speaker 3: the debater in me. If you see something something and
Speaker 3: let's just say it didn't go down too well, Yeah,
Speaker 3: so they were pissed off that I knew they were
Speaker 3: pissed off that I wanted something done about it, and
Speaker 3: so that was kind of the genesis for being like,
Speaker 3: h if this is happening to me, I'll back to myself.
Speaker 2: I knew I was an excellent journal I knew i'd
Speaker 2: get another job.
Speaker 3: I was like, if it's happening to me, other people
Speaker 3: must be getting really screwed over to and sure enough, again,
Speaker 3: I didn't really know much about it then. I didn't
Speaker 3: understand the statistics. I didn't know that it's fifteen to
Speaker 3: twenty percent of a pay gap, depending on how you
Speaker 3: slice and dize the numbers. I didn't know that was happening,
Speaker 3: and I became really interested, how could you change it? So,
Speaker 3: long story short, I stayed as a journal and foreign
Speaker 3: correspondent for a couple more years. But on the side,
Speaker 3: I was kind of working on this idea of pep
Speaker 3: talker and how could we close the pay gap sooner?
Speaker 3: And how could I support professional women to earn more
Speaker 3: cash and get promoted faster. Because I'm a big believer, Craig,
Speaker 3: and I know you are too, of like when women
Speaker 3: have more money, like, awesome things happen, right because funny,
Speaker 3: use your choice. It gives you possibility. It allows you
Speaker 3: to make different take different roads in your life and
Speaker 3: your career.
Speaker 1: And are we progressing slowly significantly somewhere in twin like
Speaker 1: is the progress? Are you happy with the rate of
Speaker 1: change and the rate of awareness and movement that you're seeing?
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, obviously we'd all love to click our
Speaker 2: fingers and say puff, it's all.
Speaker 3: Perfect, it's done, it's fixed, it's it's you know, we're
Speaker 3: all quote unquote equal perfect.
Speaker 2: We live in this nirvana world.
Speaker 3: Now, Obviously, progress could always be quicker. Someone said to
Speaker 3: me once, Actually I was a journalist. He said, Maggie,
Speaker 3: it takes a long time to turn a big ship, saying.
Speaker 2: That three times quickly, And you mentioned it.
Speaker 3: But anyway, so I think about this idea of like
Speaker 3: a big ship turning. And when you think about cultural
Speaker 3: change in the workplace, when you think about societal change
Speaker 3: of equality, of the gender pay gap, it does take
Speaker 3: a long time. I wish I could shove the ship
Speaker 3: around and fix it straight away, but I'm learning that
Speaker 3: that's not the way the world works.
Speaker 2: Do I wish it would change faster?
Speaker 3: Yes, Equally, you and I having this conversation, like your
Speaker 3: listeners in ninety countries around the world are thinking about
Speaker 3: this now and I ruminating on it, and hopefully they'll
Speaker 3: talk about.
Speaker 2: It at dinner party, you know, Like to me, that's exciting.
Speaker 3: And again, collectively, as this happens more and more and more,
Speaker 3: we will see more change.
Speaker 2: And we are seeing change.
Speaker 3: So we saw we went backwards during COVID, but we
Speaker 3: are again gradually progressing. The statistics and the data is
Speaker 3: getting better. So actually, in Australia and also in the
Speaker 3: United Kingdom, the major employers in the country have to
Speaker 3: publicly report what their gender pay gap statistics are, So
Speaker 3: if you work for a big company in the UK
Speaker 3: or Australia, you can google that. In Australia it's called
Speaker 3: wood GEA, the Women and Gender Equality Agency, and in
Speaker 3: the UK. I can't remember it, but if you just
Speaker 3: search gender pay gap United Kingdom you'll find And so
Speaker 3: that transparency and openness in talking about it, yeah, is
Speaker 3: making the companies go shait, we better fix that, right
Speaker 3: because there's a spotlight wow, and it's on the front
Speaker 3: page of.
Speaker 2: The paper once even report comes out.
Speaker 3: So yeah, policies changing, governments are starting to talk about it.
Speaker 3: We're seeing superannuation top ups and retirement top ups in
Speaker 3: certain countries for leave. So things are changing and in
Speaker 3: my mind that's a good thing. I'd love it to
Speaker 3: happen more and more and more, but it will. Let's say,
Speaker 3: this is generational change, so it's unfortunately going to take
Speaker 3: a long time.
Speaker 1: So I know you were argumentative and a debata well
Speaker 1: a debata and probably loved a good argument and loved
Speaker 1: standing up for yourself and others, which is awesome. But
Speaker 1: were you Were you always entrepreneurial? Like did you like
Speaker 1: I was? I I hated having a job, yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I had my first business at night. Not really a hustler.
Speaker 1: I just didn't like the traditional work model, like I
Speaker 1: haven't had a job in inverted commets since I was
Speaker 1: twenty five, So yeah, like working for an employer. So
Speaker 1: thirty five years I've worked for me, and I just
Speaker 1: like the freedom and the flexibility and the creativity and
Speaker 1: the problem solving and the growth and the experience that
Speaker 1: comes with figuring shit out, she go, and not having
Speaker 1: not having sick pay and not having holiday pay, and
Speaker 1: not having certainty and not having predictability. For whatever reason,
Speaker 1: I thrive in the middle of that. And yeah, but
Speaker 1: for you, was that always like did you want to
Speaker 1: work for you or did you think you would work
Speaker 1: for someone else forever?
Speaker 3: I don't think I really knew, to be honest, Craig,
Speaker 3: I think my Sisla, my sister is much more entrepreneurial
Speaker 3: than I am. And to be honest, maybe I mean
Speaker 3: my dad had his own business. He was an engineer
Speaker 3: and had his own business. I don't think I really knew.
Speaker 3: I don't think I knew when I you know, it
Speaker 3: took me a long time to figure out that I
Speaker 3: needed to create a new way of you know, funding
Speaker 3: a paycheck and figuring out it took me until I
Speaker 3: was probably at least thirty, yeah, maybe twenty nine to thirty.
Speaker 3: But my sister, she was that person who, like everyone else,
Speaker 3: was going to the mall or you know, going to
Speaker 3: parties on the weekends, and she was down on the
Speaker 3: Gold Coast selling silver that she had imported from China
Speaker 3: when she was fourteen.
Speaker 2: She was a true entrepreneur, I think, so I learned
Speaker 2: a lot from her.
Speaker 3: And she now owns very successful bakeries on the Gold
Speaker 3: Coast like Paddock and Bam Bam, and she's got a
Speaker 3: big one down at Talibudre called Custard Canteen. So she
Speaker 3: runs these amazing bakeries and restaurants. So she's very entrepreneurial
Speaker 3: and I learned a lot from her. I think for
Speaker 3: me it probably was less in my blood as it
Speaker 3: was for her, and it was more circumstance. So as
Speaker 3: a foreign correspondent, you know, if there's a natural disaster,
Speaker 3: there's a big story, something happens on Twitter or on
Speaker 3: you know, the BBC, on breaking news, you potentially have
Speaker 3: to get your bag and get to an airport. And
Speaker 3: I just didn't want to live with my phone under
Speaker 3: my pillow when I slept anymore. I was like I was,
Speaker 3: I was moving towards anxiety, and I was like, this
Speaker 3: is not healthy for me, and I can't do this
Speaker 3: long term, and I admire my colleagues who do, and
Speaker 3: I'm grateful that they tell the stories around the world
Speaker 3: that we all need to know about. But it just
Speaker 3: it wasn't gonna be sustainable for me for the next
Speaker 3: forty years. So I was like, hmm, what does it
Speaker 3: look like if I'm not doing this? What transferable skills
Speaker 3: do I have? So when I was journal I started
Speaker 3: as a side hustle a media training company. So I
Speaker 3: started to figure out what's an invoice, what's a profit margin?
Speaker 2: Like, how do you make cash? How do you get
Speaker 2: someone to buy from you? I don't know, because I
Speaker 2: don't teach you that stuff, even a business school like
Speaker 2: I didn't teach us that even as a like, no
Speaker 2: one teaches you know it, don't even get started.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting, sorry to interrupt, but not at all
Speaker 1: in how many courses, even at university. Like when I
Speaker 1: did my undergrad degree in exercise science, I was in
Speaker 1: I was in my thirties, right, I'd already been working
Speaker 1: in fitness industry for one hundred years, and I was amazed.
Speaker 1: This is an indictment. I shouldn't even say it, but
Speaker 1: this is true. So when a three year full time
Speaker 1: three year undergrad degree in exercise science, there was one
Speaker 1: one semester which equaled twelve lectures on programming exercise in
Speaker 1: a three year degree. Right, So there was of course,
Speaker 1: you know, anatomy, physiology by maca all the other stuff,
Speaker 1: but in terms of come out as an exercise scientist
Speaker 1: and in the three years there was about twelve hours
Speaker 1: of how to write and prescribe exercise or how to
Speaker 1: you know, And it was I'm like, oh wow. And
Speaker 1: then when you think about even in you know, so
Speaker 1: my PhD is in neuropsych and my undergrad is you know,
Speaker 1: in exercise science. But you think about in how much
Speaker 1: of these jobs is dependent on your ability to create
Speaker 1: connection and rapport and communicate and to understand other people
Speaker 1: and to at least have an insight into someone else's
Speaker 1: reality and to be able to build trust and respect
Speaker 1: and create an experience with you know. None of that
Speaker 1: is taught, like, none of that, so we get I
Speaker 1: used to have people that would come to me with
Speaker 1: sometimes honors and master's degrees, who would want a job
Speaker 1: in one of my gyms. So one we're all personal training,
Speaker 1: all appointment based, higher level stuff, right, and they would
Speaker 1: they were brilliant with bodies, but terrible with people. Like
Speaker 1: they they would understand the anatomy and physiology of something,
Speaker 1: but in terms of creating a great experience or having
Speaker 1: a meaningful conversation, or or saying, hey, Meggie, how is
Speaker 1: your weekend? What did you get up to? By the way,
Speaker 1: what you eat for brecky? Why the fuck did you
Speaker 1: eat cocoa pops? What's going on? No capacity you know
Speaker 1: and no one like it's And I've said this to
Speaker 1: a lot of people, whether or not you're a banker
Speaker 1: or a trainer, or a doctor or a you know,
Speaker 1: a service provider in some other area. If you can't
Speaker 1: connect with people and build rapport and create great conversations
Speaker 1: and understand someone else's version of right now and tap
Speaker 1: into that and build trust, like you can't do your job.
Speaker 2: Well, you can't. You can't get the change to happen.
Speaker 2: You can't take it from A to B. If they
Speaker 2: won't even walk.
Speaker 3: With you to be they're like, fuck, there's this guy's
Speaker 3: the worst or this girl is the worst.
Speaker 2: So I don't want to spend time with them. I
Speaker 2: don't trust them.
Speaker 1: Well, also, yeah, in the moment, having that understanding that
Speaker 1: you know like you and I are in the same
Speaker 1: conversation but not the same experience.
Speaker 2: So let's unpack that a little more. Yeah, what does
Speaker 2: that mean to you?
Speaker 1: So it means that while you know, like everything, that
Speaker 1: every time you're in the middle of or I'm in
Speaker 1: the middle of an experience like right now, we're looking
Speaker 1: at that or we're experiencing it through our own lens,
Speaker 1: through our own window of understanding, through our own inner language,
Speaker 1: our own inner storytelling. So I might you know, like,
Speaker 1: let's say, f now, for example, twenty thousand people, no,
Speaker 1: let's make it a small number, ten people listen to
Speaker 1: this show. Yeah, right now, someone's going, fucking hell, how
Speaker 1: good's Meggie? And someone else is gone, eh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe that whole bullshit pay gap and right, so, oh,
Speaker 1: Brian's there going fuck Meggie, what does she know? You
Speaker 1: know whatever? Right, and someone else is going, oh, thank
Speaker 1: god for this woman. She's a breath of fresh air, harps,
Speaker 1: can you get her on again? So it's not about
Speaker 1: what you're saying or I'm saying. It's about how people
Speaker 1: experience and processes. And so we are you are, I am,
Speaker 1: our listeners are consciously unconsciously creating their own reality without
Speaker 1: knowing it. So when something happens in the world, then
Speaker 1: you look through the Meg window and then you give
Speaker 1: it meaning and value and you label it just like
Speaker 1: Craig does. So you might look at something and go
Speaker 1: that's fucking hilarious, and I look at it and I go, well,
Speaker 1: that's highly offensive. Yeah, don't call me a cunt, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: So when I say that.
Speaker 2: In America, that word lands differently here.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you one d So when I say
Speaker 1: that word, you know, even now, there's a percentage of
Speaker 1: people that when I wish you wouldn't say that word
Speaker 1: Craig and I get it, and that's the reason I
Speaker 1: said it. But there are ninety seven one of my
Speaker 1: listeners who are like, ah, HAPs, he's a fucking idiot,
Speaker 1: because it ain't about like you think about four letters
Speaker 1: put together in a certain order. It doesn't mean anything
Speaker 1: until we say it means something.
Speaker 2: Until we give it that meaning, right, And there will.
Speaker 1: Be other people listening to you talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: the gender pay gap and be on the edge of
Speaker 1: their seat. And by the way, I truly think it
Speaker 1: is a great conversation and is a great cause, and
Speaker 1: it's nest all that, right, So that's truly what I think.
Speaker 1: But there'll be I would imagine a few dinosaurs, not
Speaker 1: that many on my listenership, I wouldn't think, but there
Speaker 1: will be people who would kind of roll their eyes
Speaker 1: at your kind of mission, right, And you know, because
Speaker 1: that's and there are people who like I've got people
Speaker 1: that send me messages regularly saying I've listened to every
Speaker 1: show you've ever done, and I'm like, you need a life.
Speaker 1: I love you, get a hobby.
Speaker 2: On thousands of apps as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well we're into sixteen no. By the way,
Speaker 1: I love those people and I appreciate it. But and
Speaker 1: then there are other people who will listen to ten
Speaker 1: minutes and go he's a fucking idiot and then move
Speaker 1: on to Joe Rogan and I get it. I get it. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: But this doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: Either because it's yeah, because because you don't need all
Speaker 3: of them.
Speaker 1: You see your people, right, But we don't have to
Speaker 1: agree or align. We just need to be respectful and
Speaker 1: understand other people, Like I don't need to agree with
Speaker 1: you to have a great conversation. I do agree with you,
Speaker 1: by the way, but I've had lots of conversations with
Speaker 1: people that you know, like away from the podcast, we
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be besties. But it's not that they're good
Speaker 1: or bad people. It's just like, yeah, I don't I'm
Speaker 1: not really fascinated with that or you, or I don't
Speaker 1: really align with that ideology or that, and that's that's okay.
Speaker 1: Like in this we don't all need And this is
Speaker 1: the thing that we're seeing so much now with the
Speaker 1: echo chambers of belief and ideology. I know where everyone
Speaker 1: thinks that like if you don't agree with me on this, this,
Speaker 1: and this, well everyone in the world who doesn't agree
Speaker 1: with me is wrong. I'm like, fuck, there's so much
Speaker 1: the older that I get and I know this sounds cliche, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the more I realize how little I know, and I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that with false humility, it's you actually go, ah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like I grew up in a
Speaker 1: religious paradigm, right, so I knew there was a God,
Speaker 1: and now I go, I don't know. Maybe there is.
Speaker 1: I don't know, though, because if I knew, then I'd
Speaker 1: have knowledge, which makes faith redundant. So even though it's
Speaker 1: uncomfortable for me to go, I don't know that's the truth.
Speaker 3: You know, Well, it's like, look because also the older
Speaker 3: we get, the more experiences we've lived through, the more
Speaker 3: people we've met who've had different experiences, So the more
Speaker 3: knowledge we have in a way to help like.
Speaker 2: Understand that there's still so much there's so many millions
Speaker 2: of people.
Speaker 3: We haven't met yet, So how much knowledge out there
Speaker 3: exists that we don't even know about?
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And to your point.
Speaker 2: Earlier around the echo chamber, it is something that really
Speaker 2: worries me.
Speaker 3: And I think about this too, obviously with the American
Speaker 3: election loom, you know, and maybe this is the journalist
Speaker 3: in me.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I really want to understand.
Speaker 3: I have a certain opinion about what I think is
Speaker 3: most helpful for a majority of folks post is election. Equally,
Speaker 3: you know, I grew up, I guess middle class. I
Speaker 3: don't know what it's like to be in middle America
Speaker 3: raising two point two kids with a Golden.
Speaker 2: Retriever on one income.
Speaker 3: I don't know what it's like to be long term unemployed,
Speaker 3: not to have health care, and to feel like there's
Speaker 3: no one out there looking out for me. Like and
Speaker 3: maybe if I live that experience, maybe I would have
Speaker 3: different political views, and I can't like, I can't fault
Speaker 3: people who.
Speaker 2: Have that experience. I don't agree with certain opinions. But
Speaker 2: also I haven't lived their life.
Speaker 3: I'm not in their shoes. I can take my kid
Speaker 3: to the doctor, I can put food on the table.
Speaker 3: So my life is very different, do you know what
Speaker 3: I mean? And I have the capacity and the privilege
Speaker 3: to vote a certain way because so many of my
Speaker 3: from a Maslow's hierarchy of needs perspective, so many of
Speaker 3: my needs, I know, are relatively met.
Speaker 2: And I have a to go back to Australia.
Speaker 3: At any point with Medicare, which I think again gives
Speaker 3: me a whole different perspective. You know why they're as
Speaker 3: Americans he who don't take their kids to the doctor
Speaker 3: because they think they'll go bankrupt. So I think it
Speaker 3: just you know, and I think also for people who
Speaker 3: are listening who've ever had a toxic boss, or a
Speaker 3: toxic relationship or any of those things. When I've dealt
Speaker 3: with people like that, something that's helped me is to
Speaker 3: try and think, like, wow, I wonder what they must
Speaker 3: have been through to feel the need to treat me.
Speaker 2: Like that right, Like, if that's how you treat people,
Speaker 2: what has happened to you? Like, do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? So sometimes that's a helpful framing that I've
Speaker 2: found well, and.
Speaker 1: I think, like from a very far away perspective, It's
Speaker 1: like when you see and this is not probo anti anyone,
Speaker 1: This is just me observing human behavior and psychology and
Speaker 1: sociology I'm fascinated with. And it doesn't just happen in America,
Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated when you see two adults who are
Speaker 1: going to be leading a fucking countryally one of them
Speaker 1: and what they're doing in public is basically insulting the
Speaker 1: other person and going, oh, he's this or she, And
Speaker 1: so what we see is all of these people who
Speaker 1: are allegedly some of the most intelligent leaders who are
Speaker 1: going to steer our country to the next whatever, basically
Speaker 1: insult trying to insult their way to a victory. I'm like,
Speaker 1: do you not understand how stupid you look, how juvenile
Speaker 1: this is, how how like unaware this is that this
Speaker 1: is your strategy is to insult people to the point
Speaker 1: where you think that that will sway public opinion that
Speaker 1: now you will have some kind of electoral advantage or
Speaker 1: to me, it's just the epitome of fucking ignorance and
Speaker 1: stupidity that oh god.
Speaker 3: We wouldn't accept that from preschool kids, Like if pies
Speaker 3: were doing that, they'd get a detention.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean exactly? I want to
Speaker 1: take a left turn. Before you and I chatted missus vulnerability,
Speaker 1: he said, Oh, I went and saw my therapist today.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and did, And I want to talk about that.
Speaker 1: We've had lots of therapists on here, and Tiffu works
Speaker 1: with me, sees doctor Bill, her therapist, and we talk
Speaker 1: all the time about this stuff. So how long have
Speaker 1: you been seeing a therapist for? Ah?
Speaker 2: So, I reckon. I started getting therapy maybe fifteen years ago.
Speaker 3: My parents got divorced when I was in my mid twenties,
Speaker 3: so that's I think the first time I went to
Speaker 3: see a therapist, and then basically on and off since then,
Speaker 3: pretty when I started my own business.
Speaker 2: I've been very consistent.
Speaker 3: I've always been working with at least one therapist and
Speaker 3: or coach and or whatever at the same time. But
Speaker 3: therapy therapy, I've kind of I fell off the wagon
Speaker 3: for maybe two or three years but I've again, I've
Speaker 3: had coaches, I still have, I still work with multiple coaches,
Speaker 3: but therapy therapy it kind of felt right. So I've
Speaker 3: actually still wanted to see a guy in New York
Speaker 3: who was referred to me by a dear friend of
Speaker 3: mine and she had a very traumatic experience and she
Speaker 3: actually did a hypnosis therapy session with him and she
Speaker 3: got attacked when she was overseas and she said it
Speaker 3: it totally worked wonders for her, and so I am
Speaker 3: very I fortunately have not had a traumatic experience, but
Speaker 3: there's just a couple of things that I've been like,
Speaker 3: I think I need.
Speaker 2: I felt a few blockers Craig in terms of like
Speaker 2: the business and my merely my mindset. I'm the I'm
Speaker 2: the problem. It's me, to quote Taylor sw So.
Speaker 3: So I was like, I'm going to take her a referral,
Speaker 3: and you know what, I emailed him two years ago
Speaker 3: and it's taken me this long to kind of I
Speaker 3: don't know, for some reason, I was like a bit
Speaker 3: scared or just like whatever, I wasn't ready and then yeah,
Speaker 3: I had a session with him today. I just like
Speaker 3: I feel like I have rose colored glasses on, like
Speaker 3: I feel it was a really powerful, really powerful session.
Speaker 1: What makes a good therapist? Do you reckon?
Speaker 2: It's a good question because I've had a bad therapist
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 3: I had I had a therapist once when I was
Speaker 3: when I was a correspondent, I had a therapist and
Speaker 3: she was like, do you think you could get me
Speaker 3: a job on TV? And I was like, this feels inappropriate?
Speaker 3: She was actually, this wasn't. Yeah, this is going back
Speaker 3: a long time. So what would I say makes a
Speaker 3: good therapist? I think a referral is always nice because
Speaker 3: then you're kind of not going in totally blind in
Speaker 3: terms of the quality control. For me, I think it's
Speaker 3: someone who has.
Speaker 2: Experienced with a specific situation that you want handled.
Speaker 3: So whether it's couple's therapy, whether it's in a child work,
Speaker 3: whether it's business whatever. And then just someone who it's
Speaker 3: an energetic match. It just feels like they're a good
Speaker 3: listener to me. I'm looking for a balance between space
Speaker 3: for me to unpack stuff on my own as well
Speaker 3: as a bit of practical strategy tangible. So I kind
Speaker 3: of want a bit of both. I want a bit
Speaker 3: of handholding and a bit of this is what you're
Speaker 3: gonna do next. Some people just want talk or some
Speaker 3: people just want tactics.
Speaker 2: It's interesting.
Speaker 3: We do a lot of executive coaching at my company
Speaker 3: and we probably straddle the two, I would say, but
Speaker 3: for me, I'm looking of the balance of both.
Speaker 1: Interesting thing about therapy and you know anything really nutrition
Speaker 1: exercise is that obviously different things work for different people. Right.
Speaker 1: It's so I can get five ladies who want to,
Speaker 1: for example, you know, be fit, e, Lena stronger, you know,
Speaker 1: more must whatever, or five dudes or you know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, smattering of everyone, it doesn't matter. But even
Speaker 1: if they've got the same goals, we can't take the
Speaker 1: same journey because they don't have the same body. They
Speaker 1: don't have the same personality, they don't have the same
Speaker 1: physiological responses. Their body doesn't interact with that stimulus the
Speaker 1: same as the next person. And so it's like therapy
Speaker 1: is the same. Like you might go and see old
Speaker 1: mate and go, oh, he's a fucking idiot, and I
Speaker 1: go there and I go, she's brilliant, She's amazing, right
Speaker 1: there was I've spoken about this too much, But there's
Speaker 1: a lady called Abigail Schreyer who wrote a book called
Speaker 1: called Bad Therapy, and she was talking about you would
Speaker 1: like this. She was talking about the fact that for
Speaker 1: some people, talk therapy is exactly what they need and
Speaker 1: it's it's very no pun intended therapeutic and valuable, but
Speaker 1: for others it's traumatizing. So when you know, you go
Speaker 1: there and you sit down every Tuesday at three and
Speaker 1: you open the door on the trauma that happened seven
Speaker 1: years ago once a week, and then the person's takes
Speaker 1: them three days to get back to status quo because
Speaker 1: they take all that emotional on psychological trauma out the
Speaker 1: door with them again. So I loved Basically she was saying,
Speaker 1: there is no which is no revelation, but there's no
Speaker 1: one size that fits all. And it's trying to understand
Speaker 1: whether or not it's a psychological diet or a physical
Speaker 1: diet or you know, it's like trying to what will
Speaker 1: work optimally for Meggie versus Craig versus John versus Sally.
Speaker 1: And it's even in you think about this, even in Korea,
Speaker 1: like you don't have a lot of certainty and predictability
Speaker 1: because you work for you, so you don't know next
Speaker 1: year how much money you're going to make. But most
Speaker 1: people or do kind of you know, because they've got
Speaker 1: a job and they've been with the company for nine years.
Speaker 1: They know next year, I'm going to earn one hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty grand, give or take, unless I get the sack,
Speaker 1: you know. Whereas with you, you are creative and you
Speaker 1: are solving problems, and you are seeing things that need
Speaker 1: to be addressed, and you're you're basically building stuff. Whereas
Speaker 1: for a lot of people that would not work for
Speaker 1: their personality or their psychology.
Speaker 3: Well, so I want to challenge you on that because
Speaker 3: I actually think I think a lot of us fall
Speaker 3: into this trap of I'm going to earn one hundred
Speaker 3: and thirty K next year, So why would I talk
Speaker 3: to anyone else in my industry?
Speaker 2: Why would I upscale? Why would I have the Why
Speaker 2: would I even.
Speaker 3: Think about knowing how to build absite, how to build
Speaker 3: a website?
Speaker 2: Why would I even bother?
Speaker 3: But I actually, I actually and maybe it's because I've
Speaker 3: been laid off so I've lived through this experience in
Speaker 3: the past. I just think you always need a plan. B. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that's really important because if you've even if
Speaker 3: you've worked for the government for forty years, you could
Speaker 3: get made redundant, or by the way, you could be
Speaker 3: so miserable in your job that it is the best
Speaker 3: thing for your health to leave that company, right Or
Speaker 3: you may have a boss that's so toxic that it's
Speaker 3: just not tenable, so you may need like mentally, physically, whatever,
Speaker 3: it may be better for your emotional state if you
Speaker 3: do leave and if you could leave. So one of
Speaker 3: the things that we talk a lot about at Petsalco,
Speaker 3: with our community and with our executive coaching is like
Speaker 3: building firstly in your mind the possibility that there are
Speaker 3: plan bis and there are options out there for you.
Speaker 2: That's the first thing.
Speaker 3: To know that it is possible, even if you've been
Speaker 3: accountant for thirty years, even if you've been in marketing
Speaker 3: for six years, there's other options, because I think otherwise
Speaker 3: we get stuck and to our conversation, but before we
Speaker 3: got an air, like when we get stuck and we
Speaker 3: get stayed, and we get comfortable and like, well, if
Speaker 3: I leave, maybe I only make seventy K and I've
Speaker 3: got a mortgage, and I actually think, to me, that's
Speaker 3: a dangerous place to be because then I think it's
Speaker 3: like this, this fear of leaving one hundred and thirty
Speaker 3: K that maybe some people stay in situations work wise
Speaker 3: are making them sick or that are not serving them,
Speaker 3: and in fact you might.
Speaker 2: Leave and make two hundred and sixty. Right, it's possible,
Speaker 2: maybe not straight away, but eventually.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, I think I agree with you, Like I
Speaker 1: divide what you're saying, I agree with but also there
Speaker 1: are people that for them to be able to get
Speaker 1: themselves out of what they're in right now because of
Speaker 1: their practical is difficult. But yeah, I agree with you,
Speaker 1: And I also like, not even if you're ending a
Speaker 1: fucking million dollars a year, but if you hate it,
Speaker 1: if it's toxic, if it's killing me, well it's a
Speaker 1: terrible job. So you know how they talk about work
Speaker 1: life balance, I talk about work impact. I go because
Speaker 1: work life balance has gone. Yeah, yeah, like work life
Speaker 1: balance as well. It's kind of if you work this
Speaker 1: many hours and you don't work this many hours, then
Speaker 1: you've got this equilibrium, this numerical kind of equation and
Speaker 1: this much work, this much not work. Okay, you've got balance. No,
Speaker 1: that's complete dogshit, because it could work twenty hours a week,
Speaker 1: which is not many but if every hour is fucking horrible,
Speaker 1: that is really bad for your physical, mental, and emotional health. Conversely,
Speaker 1: someone like you or me, probably there's not many weeks
Speaker 1: where I wouldn't do it at least sixty hours of something,
Speaker 1: at least in the form of work, because but because
Speaker 1: I love what I do, I rarely get stressed, I
Speaker 1: rarely get anxious. I sleep great, I eat great, I
Speaker 1: work out every day, I have good social life, I
Speaker 1: have friends. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't
Speaker 1: do drugs. And I'm not saying that sound good, but
Speaker 1: I work a lot. But in the middle of all
Speaker 1: of that, working a lot for me and which is
Speaker 1: not a recommendation, but for me it works. So it's
Speaker 1: trying to figure out not only what will I do
Speaker 1: and how much of it will I do, but what
Speaker 1: is the emotional and psychological consequence of that one?
Speaker 2: And I think there's a hard question.
Speaker 3: And so for people listening or like, I really throw
Speaker 3: us a batter in the works there, like I think
Speaker 3: we are like, and I do want to challenge everyone
Speaker 3: to think today, like, does your work bring you joy? Now?
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be the perfect job. And even
Speaker 2: as entrepreneurs.
Speaker 3: Craig running our own business, there's days where I'm like, jeez,
Speaker 3: I love a regular paycheck, that'd be nice. But equally,
Speaker 3: you know, I do a four day week. My entire
Speaker 3: team we only do a four day week. And that's
Speaker 3: intentional because I want I want us to.
Speaker 2: Live like I want us to be, to be working
Speaker 2: to live, not the other way around.
Speaker 3: Right for me, that's important from a values perspective, and
Speaker 3: I think one thing that's helpful to think about and
Speaker 3: even if you know, thinking about Okay, so we're here today,
Speaker 3: at some point we're going to die.
Speaker 2: I was born in nineteen eighty four. At some point
Speaker 2: I'm going to die.
Speaker 3: Let's call it twenty eighty four whatever, right, Like let's
Speaker 3: say I lived told one hundred as in when I'm
Speaker 3: buried or created, TBD on that. But if there's a gravestone,
Speaker 3: you'll have nineteen eighty four to twenty eighty four, and
Speaker 3: there's a dash, right, there's a dash between those two years.
Speaker 3: And to me, I really for framings to think about,
Speaker 3: like what do you want that dash for your life?
Speaker 3: What what did that stand for? Like what do you
Speaker 3: want to be known for? Because it's not about when
Speaker 3: you were born. It's not about when you do. It's
Speaker 3: not about the awards, it's not about the bank balance.
Speaker 3: Who cares when you diets done? But what is that dash?
Speaker 3: What does that represent? What was the essence of how
Speaker 3: you lived and who you were when you lived?
Speaker 2: Like to me, if you can.
Speaker 3: Be like I can on heart, like I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm living in alignment with what I would want that
Speaker 3: dash to be, then that's great because you can you
Speaker 3: can get that impact or that that values alignment from
Speaker 3: community work or through your family or volunteering, or it
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be through your work. But sometimes your
Speaker 3: work is so misaligned from how you want to be remembered.
Speaker 3: That's when I think there's a disconnect and there's some
Speaker 3: serious questions that folks need to ask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think more broadly one hundred percent agree
Speaker 1: with you, But more broadly, not only does our work
Speaker 1: not align with our values, but neither does our lifestyle.
Speaker 1: Neither do our habits, neither do our relationships, neither does
Speaker 1: our behavior with food. Right right? This is you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, do you want to live in alignment? Well? Cool,
Speaker 1: identify your values and your beliefs and your standards and
Speaker 1: then build an existence around those things, which won't be
Speaker 1: easy or painless or quick, by the way, but once
Speaker 1: you could, you know, I mean that for me, the
Speaker 1: value of values, no pun intended, is that they're basically
Speaker 1: our internal sat nav. It's like, this is your guidance system. Yes,
Speaker 1: I've told this story a few times, Meggie, but we
Speaker 1: had You know, we're sponsored, We're on the Nova network,
Speaker 1: Shout out to Nova. And more than a few times
Speaker 1: I've been offered really good sponsorships. One massive sponsorship that
Speaker 1: I had to say no to because I couldn't. I
Speaker 1: couldn't sell that product that doesn't it would be. One
Speaker 1: of them was Booze. And like I've said a few
Speaker 1: times on the show, I'm not against Booze. I'm against
Speaker 1: alcoholism and people abusing booze because I work with people
Speaker 1: who suffer from addiction issues, amongst other things. And so
Speaker 1: for me to be the guy that works with that
Speaker 1: x and alcoholics, and me the guy that's never had
Speaker 1: alcohol in his life, to then be selling Booze on
Speaker 1: his program, it was very It wasn't a comfortable decision
Speaker 1: because the money would be fun, but it was a
Speaker 1: very easy decision because you know that doesn't and that's
Speaker 1: you know, I think when then we extrapolate that out
Speaker 1: to you know, like when I just say to someone
Speaker 1: do you want to be fit, healthy, functional, and you
Speaker 1: know physically operational as well? As everyone goes yes, and
Speaker 1: then say all right, are you currently self sabotaging that goal?
Speaker 1: And the answer is yes, yes. You know, it's like,
Speaker 1: what's my typical behavior and does that support who and
Speaker 1: how I want to be or not? All right, we
Speaker 1: want to wind up, but I want to ask you
Speaker 1: one or two questions, if that's all right, Yeah, so quick.
Speaker 1: One one of the things that you talk about, I think,
Speaker 1: if I got my research right in your corporate stuff
Speaker 1: is imposter syndrome. Mm hmm. Do you have you I'm
Speaker 1: sure you have at times felt like an impost stuff.
Speaker 1: Are you through that or does that still leave.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, what a great question.
Speaker 3: A thousand Well I have a thousand percent felt like
Speaker 3: an impost.
Speaker 1: Have you I still do? I still think this is
Speaker 1: fucking ridiculous that I get to talk to you on
Speaker 1: the other side of the world, no over paying me
Speaker 1: to do this, and I'm just a dumb fuck from
Speaker 1: the country and I know all that sounds, but I do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm aware of it. Yeah, but yeah, like
Speaker 1: I coexist with my impost syndrome.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's what a great way, a great way
Speaker 3: of putting it. It's about I think you want to well,
Speaker 3: the coexisting and for me, it's also quietening the voice
Speaker 3: slash channeling that voice to propel me forward because and
Speaker 3: they reckon, like seventy percent ish of the population experiences
Speaker 3: imposter syndrome. And by the way, we're in good company
Speaker 3: like Tom Hanks, my Angelou, Michelle Obama, Emma Watson, lots
Speaker 3: of lots of really high profile people talk about feeling
Speaker 3: like an impost as well. So we're not alone that
Speaker 3: the two of us and any folks listening who feel
Speaker 3: the same. Yeah. And actually, to be honest, a part
Speaker 3: of what we talked about tangentially today in my therapy
Speaker 3: session was imposter syndrome. And one of the things that
Speaker 3: we work with corporate workshops on is around a strategy
Speaker 3: to like, okay, as and when we've identified yes, we're
Speaker 3: experiencing that, cool.
Speaker 2: Do we let it cripple us?
Speaker 3: Or is there actually a three step process that we
Speaker 3: can actually follow to navigate through that and use it
Speaker 3: actually as a tool rather than a hindred So yeah,
Speaker 3: shout out to anyone else who feels you know, I
Speaker 3: really appreciate you sharing that, Craig, because I think actually,
Speaker 3: if we were more vulnerable and honest with our colleagues,
Speaker 3: with our coworkers, we would also give them permission to
Speaker 3: share that with us.
Speaker 2: Because sometimes I thought I was the only one.
Speaker 3: Like when I started on a really high profile show
Speaker 3: as a reporter, I thought like I didn't deserve to
Speaker 3: be there. I was like, why have they posted me?
Speaker 3: What is happening? And my boss took me aside and
Speaker 3: he's like, what's going on?
Speaker 2: You're weird? And I was like, I just don't know
Speaker 2: why you hired me. I don't know why I'm here.
Speaker 3: And he's like, oh, you're experiencing imposter syndrome and I
Speaker 3: was like what, I didn't even know what it was.
Speaker 3: And he shared with me that he's been feeling like
Speaker 3: that for the last thirty five years, which kind of
Speaker 3: gave me comfort because I was like, ah, Okay, so
Speaker 3: I'm not that weird.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good. He's been through it.
Speaker 3: Maybe that gave me permission to know that I wasn't
Speaker 3: the weirdest person in the room, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think, yeah, I agree with you. By
Speaker 1: the way, I think it's closer to one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, I admit it. You're quite right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, for me self, doubt, insecurity, overthinking,
Speaker 1: fear of everything. You know, it's like it's normal. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the more that, the funny thing is, on this show
Speaker 1: and any forum where you have an audience, the more
Speaker 1: vulnerable you are in an intelligent way. But I talk
Speaker 1: to people about it, you know, because I was most
Speaker 1: morbidly Id's kid. I wasn't a great student. I wasn't
Speaker 1: a great athlete. I wasn't I was so fucking mediocre
Speaker 1: at everything, right, But it's but your mediocrity or you
Speaker 1: you know, well, Craig, you don't have awesome genetics. Craig,
Speaker 1: you're not a genius. Craig. You can't run fast, or
Speaker 1: dance or sing right, Craig. Cool? Okay, Well, with all
Speaker 1: that in mind, what can I do? Or Can I
Speaker 1: work hard? Yet? Can I make decisions? Can I learn?
Speaker 1: Can I develop new skills? Can I build resilience? Can
Speaker 1: I build understanding and awareness? Can I ask good questions?
Speaker 1: Can I take risks. Can I be brave all of that? Right,
Speaker 1: there's so many things that are totally optional that are
Speaker 1: life shaping and you shaping, you know, and the whole
Speaker 1: fucking self sabotage, which intersects with imposter syndrome where you're
Speaker 1: overthinking and your self doubt and your frustration and your
Speaker 1: avoidance and your like that then starts to create this
Speaker 1: self fulfilling prophecy of bad outcomes. You know, we're doing
Speaker 1: it to ourselves. But you know, like, yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that that you've I love that you've created your own thing,
Speaker 1: you know. I love that you've kind of built something
Speaker 1: from nothing in a good way. You know, you've recognized
Speaker 1: a need. And so there's this intersection of your creativity
Speaker 1: and your passion and empathy to help people but also
Speaker 1: navigate a legitimate problem and do something about it. It's amazing.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you saying that, Craig, and it's interesting
Speaker 3: hearing you speak.
Speaker 2: I heard I forget who it was.
Speaker 3: I heard someone say once that entrepreneurs often create in
Speaker 3: the world what they needed, and I wonder if you've
Speaker 3: created what you needed, what younger you needed, and same
Speaker 3: for I've created what younger Meggie needed in PEP talk her.
Speaker 3: And you know, the speaking that I do in the
Speaker 3: workshops that we run and the executive coaching that we
Speaker 3: do is probably what I needed five to ten years
Speaker 3: ago or maybe even still today. And actually for everyone
Speaker 3: listening as well, I think the bad experience is the
Speaker 3: negative things people told you, that the stories that are
Speaker 3: on repeat in your head that maybe are not serving you.
Speaker 3: Actually could that be a fuel to motivate you, to
Speaker 3: drive you forward.
Speaker 2: Is there a way that actually you could create something
Speaker 2: or help support someone else. Maybe you don't need to
Speaker 2: start a business.
Speaker 3: Maybe just actually your experience of what you went through
Speaker 3: sharing or coaching or counseling someone who's had something similar,
Speaker 3: Maybe that's your gift to be able to pay it
Speaker 3: forward to someone else such that they don't have to
Speaker 3: have as negative experience as what you did.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I think our stories what make us unique, you know,
Speaker 3: and so often I don't think that we're encouraged to
Speaker 3: share them. We're sort of like, oh, you gotta put
Speaker 3: this perfect face on Instagram or LinkedIn and like everything
Speaker 3: cunkyed orient it's actually not for everyone. And in sharing
Speaker 3: those things, I think in spaces where you feel safe
Speaker 3: and trusted and supported. There's power in that because you
Speaker 3: may give a voice to someone else right, or you
Speaker 3: may actually be sharing something that someone else needs to hear,
Speaker 3: which is I think why you and I both love
Speaker 3: stories so much and the sharing of knowledge.
Speaker 1: Well, the thing is that when you're telling a story, too,
Speaker 1: especially if it's your story and it's real, you're building
Speaker 1: emotional connection with people, whereas just data information statistics don't
Speaker 1: tend to resonate with people the same. So if you
Speaker 1: can be a bit funny, a bit interesting, if you
Speaker 1: can be a storyteller, you're building connection with people, and
Speaker 1: then once you've got that connection, then you can kind
Speaker 1: of see where you want to go from there. But also,
Speaker 1: you know when people hear about you figuring it out
Speaker 1: as you go and you being treated poorly and you
Speaker 1: thinking Okay, I'm going to do something, and then you're
Speaker 1: taking action, then you're building something, and then you being brave.
Speaker 1: These are not theories or constructs. This is literally your journey,
Speaker 1: so DMA no, but it's your journey and that inspires people.
Speaker 1: It's like, I think that's the thing, and that's why
Speaker 1: I try to with these albeit somewhat you know, lumpy
Speaker 1: bumpy change in direction conversations is to not be too strategic.
Speaker 1: Let's not have the big fucking question seven question face
Speaker 1: fuck all that, you know. I did my first six
Speaker 1: hundred episodes of this show losing money, no sponsors, going backwards,
Speaker 1: costing me. But I loved every fucking moment of it
Speaker 1: because I was learning and understanding podcasting versus radio where
Speaker 1: I came from, and and and understanding you know, not
Speaker 1: only how to do it, but also how to like,
Speaker 1: what's the science of podcasting, what's the commercial roadmap for podcasting?
Speaker 1: And how do we you know. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I was meeting people like I'm never going to meet
Speaker 1: you except for this, and so I get an hour
Speaker 1: with you, which I'm very grateful for. And I'm talking
Speaker 1: to this really smart person, and I'm learning and it's
Speaker 1: kind of you know, at the same time, I'm having
Speaker 1: a good experience. I'm getting taught and trained and told
Speaker 1: by some of the smartest people in the world on
Speaker 1: a daily basis, and I get paid for it. Now,
Speaker 1: it's fucking ridiculous. It's a scam.
Speaker 3: Well well, and also, well, you've created that, right because
Speaker 3: you followed your curiosity and you know, you're you're the
Speaker 3: problem that you had that you saw a way to
Speaker 3: solve it, you know what interests you. And I think
Speaker 3: that's coming full circle to our conversation earlier where we
Speaker 3: talked about how ridiculous it is that you're supposed to
Speaker 3: choose your life direction at you know, sixteen or seventeen
Speaker 3: or eighteen.
Speaker 2: Like look at us. It's like we're like very much
Speaker 2: not teenagers anymore, sadly, but like we're still figuring it out.
Speaker 3: I heard someone once say everything is figure outable, and
Speaker 3: I think that's so true. Like, you know, the President
Speaker 3: of America, the Prime Minister of Australia, the city of
Speaker 3: some fancy bank, they don't know what they're doing either.
Speaker 2: They also did not get a manual. Have they learned stuff?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Do they google stuff daily? Yes? Do they ask the
Speaker 2: word for advice?
Speaker 1: Also yes?
Speaker 3: And so like there's no one out there who's like
Speaker 3: the oracle who's got it all sorted. Actually, everyone's reading
Speaker 3: and learning and listening and learning from each other. And
Speaker 3: I think the sooner that I wish that I'd figure
Speaker 3: that out earlier, I think I thought that people ahead
Speaker 3: of me had some bible that was like taught them
Speaker 3: what to do next. And now that I realized that, actually,
Speaker 3: it's also not the destination that's important.
Speaker 2: Yes, we have goals, Yes we have revenue goals.
Speaker 3: Yes we want to help one hundred thousand people in
Speaker 3: two years, all these sorts of things.
Speaker 2: Yes, great, great, great, yes, but like who cares?
Speaker 3: Like, actually, the journey and this conversation and my meetings
Speaker 3: earlier today and you know, my team and coaching fascinating
Speaker 3: women and supporting them through highs and like that's actually
Speaker 3: the joy. And I think figuring out that the journey
Speaker 3: is the joy. It's not about the destination, because the
Speaker 3: destination will change. Like I'm not a journalist anymore. I'm
Speaker 3: also not a lawyer, which.
Speaker 2: I thought I would be at fifteen. Like it's the process,
Speaker 2: Like that's the joy for me.
Speaker 1: And you're always always going to be in the journey
Speaker 1: or the journey and the process. And it's about who
Speaker 1: you become. Like it's not that you know, it's when
Speaker 1: you take the narrow path. That's when you climb the mountain,
Speaker 1: that's when you take the stairs. It's it's when you
Speaker 1: do the stuff that most people won't do that you
Speaker 1: become that you build competence and understanding and strength and
Speaker 1: awareness and skill. And then now you know, it's like
Speaker 1: you go into the gym and you lift, you do
Speaker 1: a hard thing. You work against resistance to literally become strong.
Speaker 1: So how do you become strong? You literally work against
Speaker 1: physical resistance and the byproduct is adaptation, and so too
Speaker 1: mentally emotionally, you know, sociologically, you push against you work
Speaker 1: against the hard shit. You do what's required, and yes,
Speaker 1: you create practical measures outcomes, which is beautiful, but also
Speaker 1: you're becoming fucking you two point zero in the middle
Speaker 1: of that, you know.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I think that's the set physically with
Speaker 3: the stuff that you're doing. You know, like if you
Speaker 3: want to get a big muscle, you got to do
Speaker 3: these ones. A week is not enough. But if you
Speaker 3: do it consistently, repetaibly, all of a sudden you got
Speaker 3: big bysets. And the stuff that we do, which is
Speaker 3: a lot about mindset and like negotiation tactics and reframing
Speaker 3: how you show up at work and that.
Speaker 2: Kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: It's repetition, right, it's a practice, and you don't I
Speaker 3: can't give you a pill and fix it. Sorry, It's
Speaker 3: a consistent practice. It's surrounding yourself with people. It's having
Speaker 3: the tactics, it's reframing when you go off track, you know,
Speaker 3: it's finding the things to be grateful for so that
Speaker 3: again you can come back to enjoying and loving the
Speaker 3: journey and falling in love with that, so that the destination, yes,
Speaker 3: you want to have it in mind. You want to
Speaker 3: be clear where are we going, but as and when
Speaker 3: that changes, as and when you miss it, as and
Speaker 3: when you surpass it. That's superfluous because the process itself
Speaker 3: was the priority.
Speaker 1: There's another topic that we could do another day, but
Speaker 1: it's called destination disappointment, Meggie, and it's when you get
Speaker 1: to where you wanted to go, you get there and
Speaker 1: then you're like, oh this, I'm on the wrong mountain. Fuck,
Speaker 1: it's that mountain over there, you know. Because we think
Speaker 1: that when we get there wherever there is, that that's
Speaker 1: going to equate to some kind of internal nirvana, joy, calm, euphoria.
Speaker 1: And we get there, we're like, ah, oh hey, we're
Speaker 1: going to wind out, but thank you so much. How
Speaker 1: do people connect with you, follow you, find you, support you?
Speaker 1: How do they do that?
Speaker 3: What a treat chatting with you Craig. Yeah, listen, I'm
Speaker 3: on LinkedIn. Meggie Palmer, em Mebgie, So say hi. Let
Speaker 3: me know that you're listening to this amazing podcast, and
Speaker 3: that's how you found me. I love staying touch. Pep
Speaker 3: talk her hr at the end. We're on Instagram and
Speaker 3: our website is pep talker dot com. If folks need
Speaker 3: support with salary negotiations, with supporting their learning and development
Speaker 3: teams at work, or cannot speaking, please reach out. We'd
Speaker 3: love to support you. But I'm just I'm just a
Speaker 3: lighted that you're having these conversations. I'm looking forward to
Speaker 3: Destination Disappointment the next episode.
Speaker 2: That sounds like a LinkedIn post to me, Craig.
Speaker 1: It does, it does. Let's let's do that. Hey, we'll
Speaker 1: say goodbye Affair. But for the moment, I appreciate you
Speaker 1: so much and thanks for staying up to do this.
Speaker 2: You're the best.
Speaker 1: Talk to you.
Speaker 2: Scene