WEBVTT - Murder of missing camper: Greg Haddrick Pt.2 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:04.920 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.080 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.120 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.240 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.160 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.439 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.800 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.479 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:36.680 no one who comes in the contact with crime is 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.880 left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:47.520 this world. Welcome back to Part two of my chat 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.559 with Greg Hedrick, the TV writer, producer and author of 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.800 the book In the Dead of Night, which is about 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.520 the twenty twenty murder investigation in the disappearance of Russell 0:00:56.560 --> 0:01:00.400 Hill and Carol Clay, whose burnout campsite was governed in 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:01.880 remote Victorian wilderness. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.559 Greg, welcome back, Thanks Garry. Well we left you with well. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.200 We left our listeners in part one with all the 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.560 information that the police had at the time and just 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.760 rehashing it that these couple were camping. Their campsite was 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.920 found abandoned and it had been set alight. Their car 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.840 had been abandoned. The police got a report of their 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.720 disappearance about five days later. When the communications weren't coming 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:29.759 through from the remote location. Then there was lines of inquiry. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.400 Police were trying to establish who was in the era 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.160 and when we talked remote, we're talking extra really remote, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:39.919 extremely remote, and they came through a number plate recognition camera. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.600 They got the name of Greg Lynn. The police were 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.600 spoken to Greg Lynn. He gave an account and was 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:51.000 forthcoming in his movements down there, and that's basically where 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.080 the police had been left with. 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:56.040 That's and in fact, even at that stage they still 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:57.840 hadn't talked to the button man they went. It was 0:01:57.840 --> 0:01:59.600 a few weeks after that they take that, and there 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.160 was an other suspect that they had that other homicides 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.840 told them about who lived nearby, who was as likely 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.000 as Greg was. And in fact, the way it was 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:10.440 described to me, as I say in the book, was 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.000 that it was only when those two were eliminated as well, 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.760 that they looked on their board of all the people 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.520 who'd been in the valley or all the people who 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:21.560 were suspects, and they could eliminate everyone except Greg. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.720 So on the version of events he had, they couldn't corroborate. 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:31.840 That's right. It sounded, you know, really feasible, but they 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.359 could corroborate nothing, So it. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:35.040 Makes it difficult. 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:40.440 I always approached complex investigations with opportunity, capability of motive. 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.480 Maybe who's a hard one with this, because it's why 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:48.240 were these people killed. Opportunity is about being in the 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.200 vicinity and capability have they got that? 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:52.919 Are they the. 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.240 Type of person that could commit a crime of that nature. 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:58.760 They've gone through all the people they've identified in the area, 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.680 so they're looking at opportunity. So they're ticking those and 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:07.320 then eliminating people. I assume because of the information they provided. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.360 They had cameras, you said, pictures of Jim camping or whatever, 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.840 had people with them that could where they were. But 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.480 you've got Greg sitting there on his own, that's given 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.600 the version, and the police had nothing, nothing that could 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:23.600 corroborate it or contradict it. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:28.080 That's right, So where do you go? So what do 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:28.280 you do? 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:28.840 What do you do? 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.960 And I would imagine. I would imagine that would be 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.440 the briefing what happens now? You would all be standing 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.880 I get how this would play out. You'd always standing 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.280 in the interview room looking at the whiteboards, staring there 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:43.240 and going, well, what do we do? 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.520 What we do? The first thing? What the first thing 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.360 they did was go, let's he's a jet Star pilot. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.680 Let's see if we can ask other Jet Star pilots 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.840 what they think of him. And they quickly realized that 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.520 he's someone who people like to stay clear of, wary 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.600 of that, he's a little bit feared, very good at 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.360 his job, but not well liked at all. And so 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.440 it just starts to put him in a different category. 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.880 When they're thinking, well, is he someone who conceivably could 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.240 have done this? You're looking at someone who's known to 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.839 be cold and calculating, not particularly friendly, not particularly warm, 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:21.839 and they just build up a picture. 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:24.520 Well looking, you've been trying to get the profile of 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.520 the type of person you're looking at. Yeah, So before 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:31.200 we move on, and I think, because investigations of this 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.719 nature and I can see how hard the cops have worked, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:38.200 tell me a little bit about the about the investigative team. 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.440 The ones. There are some I don't know about. The 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.560 ones the ones that I do know about. The first 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:49.680 informant was Abby Justin, who very smart, capable young woman 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.120 in the mid thirties. From the very beginning, Brett Florence 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.960 was around. Brett is the one that goes the whole way. 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.919 Even though so Abby was the first informant, Brett stayed 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.600 with investigation right through to the final interview. Another one 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.760 involved was Candace Robson, and she was involved for a 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.520 long time, but then she took leave to have a 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.720 child about halfway through. And after Candace left, the head 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.600 of the missing person squad who oversaw everything, Andrew Stamper, 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.720 He and Brett decided they sat down and decided to 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:25.840 bring in Dan passing him which was an interesting move 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.200 because Dan Dan was a cop who was known to 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:34.799 be good camper, four wheel driver, recreational shooter, et cetera, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.120 so he could talk Greg's language. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.920 I thought that was a really interesting, interesting move and 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.240 a clever move on behalf of the team bringing Dan 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.839 in because Dan, yeah, understood the type of person he 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.039 was in the world that Yeah, the others might have 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.880 been city dwellers and yeah, trying to understand that world 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.720 of four will driving and hunting and hanging out in 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:57.400 the bush. 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:58.920 And that did pay off in the interview, in the 0:05:58.960 --> 0:05:59.680 report of interview. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.400 Okay, well we'll get back to Greg. 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.520 So you got this situation, he's your best person of 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.599 interest at this point in Tom what saw the moves 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:11.640 did the police make. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.520 To the next thing? They took the I think the 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.600 big pictures They took the view. They were not confident 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.039 they had enough to just arrest and charge. Now they 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.800 were developing theories and he was the only one left 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.440 that they knew about. But there was so much they 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.119 still didn't know. There was nothing that actually connected Greg 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:37.640 to the burnt out campsite at all yet. So they decided, 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.560 as often happens with homicide investigations, they needed surveillance. They 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.320 needed to see if they could that The theory was 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.080 put surveillance in his house and you know, car, etc. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.520 Then try and calibrate things so you could just prod 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.279 him to think about that event, but not far enough 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.760 to make him think he was the suspect. And of 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.480 course what they found in terms of putting the surveillance 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.560 devices inside his house was it was far more difficult 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.920 than usual because it was COVID lockdown and everyone was 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:07.520 living in the house. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:13.320 Yeah, thats it makes it very hard, very difficult situations. 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.280 They managed to do it. We won't reveal how they 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:18.920 did it, but they managed. 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:19.360 To do it. 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.200 There was a couple of things when they're building the 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.800 case and they're working on hypothesis this might have happened, 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.680 that might have happened. There was a couple of Really 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.240 I think smart police work in what they've done and 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.680 how they've interpreted things. One of the information correct me 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.239 if I'm wrong. One of the information that Greg provided 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.760 the police in that informal chat when they first spoke 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.200 to him was that he got up in the morning, 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.920 left at seven am when it was light. But they 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.000 had records of his car having the car headlights on 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.520 at ten am in the morning. And I think one 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.120 of the detech is I don't know who they would 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.440 attribute it to, but it was in a group discussion 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.760 said well that's unusual. Maybe he was driving all night 0:07:57.800 --> 0:07:59.320 and forgot to turn his lights off. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.800 That's clever thinking, yeah that and I think that was Brett. 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.440 It might have been heavy, but I think it was Brett. 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.360 And yeah, so they had from the shots they had 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.280 of his car going through the AMPR cameras Crade Outline road. 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.280 The one the public saw later was the one from behind, 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:19.800 but they also had the one from in front as 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.720 it was approaching the camera and his lights were on. 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.800 That's right, and they and it wasn't it was. It 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:28.400 wasn't that. As soon as they got the phone, day 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.360 went aha. It was later on they went, well, hang on, 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.360 why would he's saying He actually said something like the 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.079 sun comes up, you pack your camp camp up and 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.559 you get going, and they're going. If he's not packing 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.600 his camp up till the sun comes up, and he's 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:43.960 been there since four o'clock, why are his headlights on? 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.280 Simple thing? Simple thing like that. But that says little 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.679 details that can get missed, and full credit to him 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.599 that they okay, that's enough to pike your interest and 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.240 look a little bit deeper at him. Then you start 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.240 adding things like this and this is not it's not 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.040 enough to get a person convicted. He changed the color 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.080 of his car, Okay, So that's saying, well, okay, what's 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.840 going on there. We know whatever happened at the camp site, 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:11.960 the person was trying to cover up things. Then you've 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.000 got a person that's changed the color of his car. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.160 Reasonable explanation. I'm sure a highly paid defense barrister could go, well, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.480 we all did strange things during COVID. Yeah, he just 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.680 changed the color of his car. But they're little things 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.480 that added up. When we're looking at a person of interest, 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.079 you're trying to build a profile, the history, what this 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.480 person's done. They've spoken to the Jetstar employees and he's 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.000 not well liked, and a few other things that were said. So, okay, 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.120 he's a bit of an outlier. He's not your average person. 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.520 But there was something else about the victim, Russell Hill, 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.720 that was quite interesting that comes into play. Then that's 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:53.079 the victimology. That his nephew was killed in a hunting accident. Yes, 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.079 his nephew in the mid nineties. His nephew Gary was 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:59.400 actually mistaken for a deer and was shot by a 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:04.160 dear hunter. The important thing was that a deer hunters 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.120 had mistaken his nephew for a wild animal and had 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:12.280 shot him accidentally and killed him. And Russell from that 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:17.400 had never been a shooter anyway, but from then was 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.560 kept a close watch on any hunters when he was camping. 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.960 Did not like hunting and shooting all that much, and 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.920 kept maps of where the hunting areas were, you know, 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.880 where they couldn't couldn't hunt. So he's almost like his 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.200 own little policeman in terms of policing the hunters in 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.880 the various outback areas that he went and knowing. And 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.800 that's where it gets interesting. You've got profiling the person 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.000 of interest, you're profiling the victim, and you're trying to 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.800 work out well, if they've met, has there been a class? 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.120 So you've got this shooter that doesn't like being told, 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.280 as in Greg, and then you've got Russell that doesn't 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:56.040 like shooters, that. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.959 Doesn't like shooters and likes to put them in their place. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:03.760 And Greg who owned seven weapons. Okay, so you know, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.200 not many I don't know many jets star pilots would 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:07.840 own seven weapons, but you know he did. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.640 And other things that they built a case, and the 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:17.480 case theory more than anything. But the victim's phone was on. Now, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.240 the assumption being well, if you're in the room location, 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.600 why have you got your why would the phone be 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.720 turned on? But there's an explanation for that, yeah there is. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.240 And again it took them a little while to go ah. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.199 Of course he about a month or two before he'd 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.959 bought a drone. Russell Hill had bought a drone, and 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:38.000 he was very proud of being able to sort of 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.080 fly his drone around and you know, check on what 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.440 was happening in the in the various areas. You know, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.680 we might be good for fishing or camping or whatever. 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.960 And what they realized was that, you know, drones are 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:56.640 controlled through your phone. So while almost everybody who goes 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.000 into the wond and gat a valley or the Great 0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:59.720 Alpine Road turns their phone off because you can't get 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.160 recept anyway save the battery, his was on because it 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.840 was controlling the drone. And so that's almost certainly why 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.360 it was still on when it was being driven past 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.800 those towers. And someone mightn't have realized that or forgot, 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.160 They wouldn't have the attention the detail whether it. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.760 Was gregor whether it was Greg or someone else. The 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.880 likelihood is that they never did find the drone, But 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.199 the likelihood is the phone wasn't right there, and if 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.880 they just picked up Carol and Russell's phone, the assumption 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.040 would be they'd both be off. 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.440 So they're building this case and all these red flags, 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.160 indicators and all that. But you start to put it together, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.800 but still it's just a hypothesis of what might have 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.559 happened that it can't be put any stronger. At what 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.720 stage we talked about the data for the far the 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.680 movement did they did that start to tighten up in 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.920 the movements of confirm what they thought it was. It's 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.560 basically locking it in. It is this is the path 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:56.679 the phone travel. 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.600 It was about nine or ten months later but they 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.559 finally had the the full true call records I think 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:06.360 they're called I think It's true call and where the 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.679 mathematical analyst who was doing that could pinpoint at ten 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:14.720 second intervals where Russell's phone was, and it was it 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.320 was going up the Dargo Highplanes Road, it was turning 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.720 left into Great Alpine Road and where the A ANDPR 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.160 cameras are. It sort of hit bounced against the Mount 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:29.000 Hotham tower just before and just after and in that 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.559 time Russell's car went straight through the camera. In court, 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.960 you can pretty much prove the phone had been in 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:37.400 that car. 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.800 And then you look at possible defenses building the case. 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.240 Did someone just plant the phone in there? Someone throw 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.000 the phone in there? All sorts of things that come in. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.640 But the case is starting to get stronger now, so 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.560 it'd certainly been in the suspect stage. But that opens 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:59.439 another consideration. This dude's a jet Star pilot, and I'm 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.120 sure they they had issues because quite often when we're 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.800 looking at people and you know what they're doing, well, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.400 are they potentially if we stir them up, are they 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.400 going to do something horrific? Someone in charge of flying 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.640 planes as a high risk How did that play out? 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.440 Because I would imagine the police would be, well, the 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.000 moment we put this up, he's going to they're going 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.800 to have to take him away from his work so 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.360 that the game's up that we're looking. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.840 It was a real there was a real crisis point 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:33.600 for them when they realized that they as Jetstar. For 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:35.960 the first few months the investigation, Jetstar wasn't flying, it 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.800 was COVID. Then when jets Star started back up again, 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.920 they thought, well, we can't. You know, what do we 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:48.040 do If we'd call Jet Star head of security and say, look, 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.160 it's one of your check pilots is just on the quiet, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.680 just on the quiet, and an investigation for a double murder, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.040 they'd be grounded immediately. And they'd have to tell him 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.000 while he was grounded, he would know. And what they 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.160 knew was if Greg knew, definitely he was their number 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.640 one suspect. He shut up and they would never have 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.800 any chance of getting any further evidence. On the other hand, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.600 if they if they didn't say anything. Some of the 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.000 police psychologists were saying, well, if he starts to twig 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.760 or you know, think about what had happened, or think 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.120 maybe he might be in the frame, there's a chance 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:20.760 he will crash a plane and they go. 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.040 That would be a hard one to explain. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.960 That would be a very difficult one. So they were 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:31.320 in a bind, and they were very close to actually 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.760 picking up the phone to jet Star and resigning themselves 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.000 to the fact that they'd gone as far as they could. 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.920 When he was stung by one of his own bees. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.080 He'd brought some bee hives during lockdown, and one of 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.840 his own bees stung him and he had an anaphylactic reaction, 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.640 which meant his pilot's license was canceled for another six 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.520 months until he got a health check again. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.800 I don't know how the police got the bees in there, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.440 but he did. 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.320 Well. Him stung by a bee, we were thinking that 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.480 we make an electronic you know, vic pop be that 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.880 did it, et cetera. But no, it was just it 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:04.960 was sheer luck, sheer. 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.640 Luck, because that would be a real hard decision to 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:10.520 make and you'd probably have to err on the side 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.760 of the cause. And as it got tighter and tighter, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.120 you couldn't sit on that and let him fly planes. 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:18.880 You'd have to have to move. So that was fortunate. 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:23.880 Sometimes you need those lucky breaks. And that's incredible. I'd 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.960 be really impressive if they managed to orchestrate that. That's 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.920 one of the best undercover operations I've ever seen, getting 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:31.320 someone stung by a bed. 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.480 Okay, So that's given them some breathing space. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:42.000 They're working physical surveillance, electronic surveillance, and covert electronic surveillance. 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.320 And you also addressed the difficulty of getting approval for 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.720 having an electronic surveillance and you know, you've got to 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.680 go through judges and everything that goes with that. And 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.560 it's not just granted, it's not. So they were working 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.640 with the pressures of that. What so what was their 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.160 next move or when did they decide to. 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.280 Live on their next move? Because having when they first 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.119 put all that surveillance on him. Their thought was, most 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.439 times someone has a confidence somewhere in their life. You know, 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.440 it can be your wife or your husband, but often 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.880 it's not. Often it's whoever you know Joe at the pub, 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.400 and they were surprised to realize that Greg didn't have anyone. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.800 He actually didn't have any close friends at all, and 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.760 so they thought, well, let's try and give him one 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.960 and see if. And so it was going to be 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.720 tricky to do. To get someone to become an acquaintance 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.719 stroke friend of someone who actively avoided friendship wasn't going 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.879 to be easy. So they needed someone with a particular 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.840 set of circumstances that would appeal to Greg, that was 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:51.119 very like minded, et cetera. And they had to go 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.119 to Wa to find a cop who had all the 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.040 boxes tipped as someone who could probably pull this off 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.480 for them and get Greg just to slip up for 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.400 three to five seconds. All they needed was to him 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.080 to say the wrong thing for three to five seconds, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.280 and suddenly the case wouldn't be just circumstantial. They'd have something. 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:14.480 And they had this all in place, and if you remember, 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.680 there was a COVID positive test in Perth and Mark 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:19.360 McGowan closed the Wa Borders. 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.480 I love the power of those premieres. 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.120 Let's close the world, I do remember. 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.720 And it was a hard border shutdown and Wa you 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.280 cut itself off from the rest of the world and 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.680 they couldn't get him over And so that was like. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.440 And the detail is in the book and people want 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.960 to find the detail. I can only imagine how frustrating 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.840 that would be and going real like, can we just 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.000 sort this out? But no, A hard lockdown is a 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:54.960 hard lockdown. Okay, So they've got a case I would 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.720 describe as circumstantial, but a fairly weak circumstantial. 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.239 You put it before the courts. 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.320 You'd be worried about him walking out on it, So 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.520 they need more. There was one other thing that he did, 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.440 if I remember it correctly, after the lockdown was removed 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.160 from Victoria that midnight. First thing he does is drive 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.080 straight straight back, yeah, back down there. 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.840 That's the other clue they had, is they and it 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:22.520 was before they had put all the surveillance on it, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.320 because they had so much trouble getting the surveillance on it. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.960 But when they were checking his phone records and they 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:33.120 realized that after the first lockdown finished at midnight before 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.680 one am, his phone was on the road driving straight 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:36.840 back to we want to get highly. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:37.800 So who's desperate to get down? 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.920 He was desperate to get there, and they did think 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:45.000 who does that? Well again, there's like defense barishes are 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.280 great at coming up with reasons. But you present that. 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.800 At court and they go, he's been lockdown. Weren't we 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:51.200 all frustrated during COVID? 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.439 You didn't. We just want to get free, And you go. 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.320 I know, So it's funny you look at it through 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.960 the lens of Okay, Well, that's certainly painting the pitch 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.919 from a prosecution point of view. But the alternative is 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.879 the defense can rip it apart. 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:06.360 So they're still looking for more. 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.879 But they decide they're going to have to move on him, 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.280 and they came up with a plan, as I understand that, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.119 to put pressure on all the people, priful people, on 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:17.560 him when he's doing one of these trips when he's 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:20.760 off grid. So when he comes back, the phone's just 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.480 going to beep and all his friends' associates are going 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.760 to be going, why the police knocking on their door talking. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.960 To m Yeah, they came to the view because the 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.680 surveillance that the timeframe for the surveillance sports was running out, 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.200 and they knew they wouldn't get another extension, So there's 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.359 a sort of ticking clock here as well. So yes, 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.479 they decide, first there's the segment they did on sixty minutes, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.240 and then later at the moment you're talking about, they 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.439 felt they needed to rattle him somehow. They had to 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:50.960 get him rattled so that in an interview situation he'd 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.959 tell them more than he might otherwise do, and to 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.800 do that he Jetstar was about to put him back 0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.480