1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into 14 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: this world. Welcome back to Part two of my chat 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: with Greg Hedrick, the TV writer, producer and author of 16 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: the book In the Dead of Night, which is about 17 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty murder investigation in the disappearance of Russell 18 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: Hill and Carol Clay, whose burnout campsite was governed in 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: remote Victorian wilderness. 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 2: Greg, welcome back, Thanks Garry. Well we left you with well. 21 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: We left our listeners in part one with all the 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: information that the police had at the time and just 23 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: rehashing it that these couple were camping. Their campsite was 24 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: found abandoned and it had been set alight. Their car 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: had been abandoned. The police got a report of their 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: disappearance about five days later. When the communications weren't coming 27 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: through from the remote location. Then there was lines of inquiry. 28 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: Police were trying to establish who was in the era 29 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: and when we talked remote, we're talking extra really remote, 30 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,919 Speaker 1: extremely remote, and they came through a number plate recognition camera. 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: They got the name of Greg Lynn. The police were 32 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: spoken to Greg Lynn. He gave an account and was 33 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: forthcoming in his movements down there, and that's basically where 34 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: the police had been left with. 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: That's and in fact, even at that stage they still 36 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 3: hadn't talked to the button man they went. It was 37 00:01:57,840 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: a few weeks after that they take that, and there 38 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: was an other suspect that they had that other homicides 39 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 3: told them about who lived nearby, who was as likely 40 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: as Greg was. And in fact, the way it was 41 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: described to me, as I say in the book, was 42 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 3: that it was only when those two were eliminated as well, 43 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 3: that they looked on their board of all the people 44 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: who'd been in the valley or all the people who 45 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: were suspects, and they could eliminate everyone except Greg. 46 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: So on the version of events he had, they couldn't corroborate. 47 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 3: That's right. It sounded, you know, really feasible, but they 48 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 3: could corroborate nothing, So it. 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: Makes it difficult. 50 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: I always approached complex investigations with opportunity, capability of motive. 51 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: Maybe who's a hard one with this, because it's why 52 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: were these people killed. Opportunity is about being in the 53 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: vicinity and capability have they got that? 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: Are they the. 55 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: Type of person that could commit a crime of that nature. 56 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: They've gone through all the people they've identified in the area, 57 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: so they're looking at opportunity. So they're ticking those and 58 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: then eliminating people. I assume because of the information they provided. 59 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: They had cameras, you said, pictures of Jim camping or whatever, 60 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: had people with them that could where they were. But 61 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: you've got Greg sitting there on his own, that's given 62 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: the version, and the police had nothing, nothing that could 63 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: corroborate it or contradict it. 64 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 2: That's right, So where do you go? So what do 65 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: you do? 66 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 3: What do you do? 67 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: And I would imagine. I would imagine that would be 68 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: the briefing what happens now? You would all be standing 69 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: I get how this would play out. You'd always standing 70 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: in the interview room looking at the whiteboards, staring there 71 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: and going, well, what do we do? 72 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: What we do? The first thing? What the first thing 73 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 3: they did was go, let's he's a jet Star pilot. 74 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: Let's see if we can ask other Jet Star pilots 75 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: what they think of him. And they quickly realized that 76 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: he's someone who people like to stay clear of, wary 77 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: of that, he's a little bit feared, very good at 78 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 3: his job, but not well liked at all. And so 79 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: it just starts to put him in a different category. 80 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: When they're thinking, well, is he someone who conceivably could 81 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 3: have done this? You're looking at someone who's known to 82 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 3: be cold and calculating, not particularly friendly, not particularly warm, 83 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 3: and they just build up a picture. 84 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: Well looking, you've been trying to get the profile of 85 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: the type of person you're looking at. Yeah, So before 86 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: we move on, and I think, because investigations of this 87 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: nature and I can see how hard the cops have worked, 88 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about the about the investigative team. 89 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: The ones. There are some I don't know about. The 90 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: ones the ones that I do know about. The first 91 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: informant was Abby Justin, who very smart, capable young woman 92 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 3: in the mid thirties. From the very beginning, Brett Florence 93 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: was around. Brett is the one that goes the whole way. 94 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 3: Even though so Abby was the first informant, Brett stayed 95 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 3: with investigation right through to the final interview. Another one 96 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: involved was Candace Robson, and she was involved for a 97 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: long time, but then she took leave to have a 98 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 3: child about halfway through. And after Candace left, the head 99 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 3: of the missing person squad who oversaw everything, Andrew Stamper, 100 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 3: He and Brett decided they sat down and decided to 101 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 3: bring in Dan passing him which was an interesting move 102 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: because Dan Dan was a cop who was known to 103 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 3: be good camper, four wheel driver, recreational shooter, et cetera, 104 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: so he could talk Greg's language. 105 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: I thought that was a really interesting, interesting move and 106 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: a clever move on behalf of the team bringing Dan 107 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: in because Dan, yeah, understood the type of person he 108 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: was in the world that Yeah, the others might have 109 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: been city dwellers and yeah, trying to understand that world 110 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: of four will driving and hunting and hanging out in 111 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: the bush. 112 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 3: And that did pay off in the interview, in the 113 00:05:58,960 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 3: report of interview. 114 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll get back to Greg. 115 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: So you got this situation, he's your best person of 116 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: interest at this point in Tom what saw the moves 117 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: did the police make. 118 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: To the next thing? They took the I think the 119 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 3: big pictures They took the view. They were not confident 120 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 3: they had enough to just arrest and charge. Now they 121 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 3: were developing theories and he was the only one left 122 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: that they knew about. But there was so much they 123 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,119 Speaker 3: still didn't know. There was nothing that actually connected Greg 124 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: to the burnt out campsite at all yet. So they decided, 125 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: as often happens with homicide investigations, they needed surveillance. They 126 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: needed to see if they could that The theory was 127 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: put surveillance in his house and you know, car, etc. 128 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: Then try and calibrate things so you could just prod 129 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 3: him to think about that event, but not far enough 130 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 3: to make him think he was the suspect. And of 131 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: course what they found in terms of putting the surveillance 132 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: devices inside his house was it was far more difficult 133 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 3: than usual because it was COVID lockdown and everyone was 134 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 3: living in the house. 135 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, thats it makes it very hard, very difficult situations. 136 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: They managed to do it. We won't reveal how they 137 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: did it, but they managed. 138 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: To do it. 139 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: There was a couple of things when they're building the 140 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: case and they're working on hypothesis this might have happened, 141 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: that might have happened. There was a couple of Really 142 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: I think smart police work in what they've done and 143 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: how they've interpreted things. One of the information correct me 144 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. One of the information that Greg provided 145 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: the police in that informal chat when they first spoke 146 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: to him was that he got up in the morning, 147 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: left at seven am when it was light. But they 148 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: had records of his car having the car headlights on 149 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: at ten am in the morning. And I think one 150 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: of the detech is I don't know who they would 151 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: attribute it to, but it was in a group discussion 152 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: said well that's unusual. Maybe he was driving all night 153 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: and forgot to turn his lights off. 154 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: That's clever thinking, yeah that and I think that was Brett. 155 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: It might have been heavy, but I think it was Brett. 156 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 3: And yeah, so they had from the shots they had 157 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: of his car going through the AMPR cameras Crade Outline road. 158 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 3: The one the public saw later was the one from behind, 159 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 3: but they also had the one from in front as 160 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: it was approaching the camera and his lights were on. 161 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 3: That's right, and they and it wasn't it was. It 162 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 3: wasn't that. As soon as they got the phone, day 163 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 3: went aha. It was later on they went, well, hang on, 164 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: why would he's saying He actually said something like the 165 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 3: sun comes up, you pack your camp camp up and 166 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 3: you get going, and they're going. If he's not packing 167 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 3: his camp up till the sun comes up, and he's 168 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 3: been there since four o'clock, why are his headlights on? 169 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: Simple thing? Simple thing like that. But that says little 170 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: details that can get missed, and full credit to him 171 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,599 Speaker 1: that they okay, that's enough to pike your interest and 172 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: look a little bit deeper at him. Then you start 173 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: adding things like this and this is not it's not 174 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: enough to get a person convicted. He changed the color 175 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: of his car, Okay, So that's saying, well, okay, what's 176 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: going on there. We know whatever happened at the camp site, 177 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: the person was trying to cover up things. Then you've 178 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: got a person that's changed the color of his car. 179 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: Reasonable explanation. I'm sure a highly paid defense barrister could go, well, 180 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: we all did strange things during COVID. Yeah, he just 181 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: changed the color of his car. But they're little things 182 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: that added up. When we're looking at a person of interest, 183 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: you're trying to build a profile, the history, what this 184 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: person's done. They've spoken to the Jetstar employees and he's 185 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: not well liked, and a few other things that were said. So, okay, 186 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: he's a bit of an outlier. He's not your average person. 187 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: But there was something else about the victim, Russell Hill, 188 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: that was quite interesting that comes into play. Then that's 189 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: the victimology. That his nephew was killed in a hunting accident. Yes, 190 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: his nephew in the mid nineties. His nephew Gary was 191 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: actually mistaken for a deer and was shot by a 192 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: dear hunter. The important thing was that a deer hunters 193 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: had mistaken his nephew for a wild animal and had 194 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: shot him accidentally and killed him. And Russell from that 195 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: had never been a shooter anyway, but from then was 196 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: kept a close watch on any hunters when he was camping. 197 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: Did not like hunting and shooting all that much, and 198 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: kept maps of where the hunting areas were, you know, 199 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: where they couldn't couldn't hunt. So he's almost like his 200 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: own little policeman in terms of policing the hunters in 201 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: the various outback areas that he went and knowing. And 202 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: that's where it gets interesting. You've got profiling the person 203 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: of interest, you're profiling the victim, and you're trying to 204 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: work out well, if they've met, has there been a class? 205 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: So you've got this shooter that doesn't like being told, 206 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: as in Greg, and then you've got Russell that doesn't 207 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: like shooters, that. 208 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 3: Doesn't like shooters and likes to put them in their place. 209 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: And Greg who owned seven weapons. Okay, so you know, 210 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 3: not many I don't know many jets star pilots would 211 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: own seven weapons, but you know he did. 212 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: And other things that they built a case, and the 213 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: case theory more than anything. But the victim's phone was on. Now, 214 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: the assumption being well, if you're in the room location, 215 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: why have you got your why would the phone be 216 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: turned on? But there's an explanation for that, yeah there is. 217 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: And again it took them a little while to go ah. 218 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: Of course he about a month or two before he'd 219 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: bought a drone. Russell Hill had bought a drone, and 220 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: he was very proud of being able to sort of 221 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: fly his drone around and you know, check on what 222 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: was happening in the in the various areas. You know, 223 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: we might be good for fishing or camping or whatever. 224 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: And what they realized was that, you know, drones are 225 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: controlled through your phone. So while almost everybody who goes 226 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: into the wond and gat a valley or the Great 227 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: Alpine Road turns their phone off because you can't get 228 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: recept anyway save the battery, his was on because it 229 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: was controlling the drone. And so that's almost certainly why 230 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: it was still on when it was being driven past 231 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: those towers. And someone mightn't have realized that or forgot, 232 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: They wouldn't have the attention the detail whether it. 233 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: Was gregor whether it was Greg or someone else. The 234 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: likelihood is that they never did find the drone, But 235 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 3: the likelihood is the phone wasn't right there, and if 236 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 3: they just picked up Carol and Russell's phone, the assumption 237 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: would be they'd both be off. 238 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: So they're building this case and all these red flags, 239 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: indicators and all that. But you start to put it together, 240 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: but still it's just a hypothesis of what might have 241 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: happened that it can't be put any stronger. At what 242 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: stage we talked about the data for the far the 243 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: movement did they did that start to tighten up in 244 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: the movements of confirm what they thought it was. It's 245 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: basically locking it in. It is this is the path 246 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: the phone travel. 247 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 3: It was about nine or ten months later but they 248 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 3: finally had the the full true call records I think 249 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: they're called I think It's true call and where the 250 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 3: mathematical analyst who was doing that could pinpoint at ten 251 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 3: second intervals where Russell's phone was, and it was it 252 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 3: was going up the Dargo Highplanes Road, it was turning 253 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: left into Great Alpine Road and where the A ANDPR 254 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 3: cameras are. It sort of hit bounced against the Mount 255 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 3: Hotham tower just before and just after and in that 256 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: time Russell's car went straight through the camera. In court, 257 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 3: you can pretty much prove the phone had been in 258 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 3: that car. 259 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: And then you look at possible defenses building the case. 260 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: Did someone just plant the phone in there? Someone throw 261 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: the phone in there? All sorts of things that come in. 262 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: But the case is starting to get stronger now, so 263 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: it'd certainly been in the suspect stage. But that opens 264 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: another consideration. This dude's a jet Star pilot, and I'm 265 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: sure they they had issues because quite often when we're 266 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: looking at people and you know what they're doing, well, 267 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: are they potentially if we stir them up, are they 268 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: going to do something horrific? Someone in charge of flying 269 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: planes as a high risk How did that play out? 270 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: Because I would imagine the police would be, well, the 271 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: moment we put this up, he's going to they're going 272 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: to have to take him away from his work so 273 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: that the game's up that we're looking. 274 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: It was a real there was a real crisis point 275 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: for them when they realized that they as Jetstar. For 276 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 3: the first few months the investigation, Jetstar wasn't flying, it 277 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: was COVID. Then when jets Star started back up again, 278 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 3: they thought, well, we can't. You know, what do we 279 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 3: do If we'd call Jet Star head of security and say, look, 280 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: it's one of your check pilots is just on the quiet, 281 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 3: just on the quiet, and an investigation for a double murder, 282 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 3: they'd be grounded immediately. And they'd have to tell him 283 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 3: while he was grounded, he would know. And what they 284 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 3: knew was if Greg knew, definitely he was their number 285 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 3: one suspect. He shut up and they would never have 286 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: any chance of getting any further evidence. On the other hand, 287 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: if they if they didn't say anything. Some of the 288 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 3: police psychologists were saying, well, if he starts to twig 289 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 3: or you know, think about what had happened, or think 290 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: maybe he might be in the frame, there's a chance 291 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: he will crash a plane and they go. 292 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: That would be a hard one to explain. 293 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: That would be a very difficult one. So they were 294 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 3: in a bind, and they were very close to actually 295 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 3: picking up the phone to jet Star and resigning themselves 296 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 3: to the fact that they'd gone as far as they could. 297 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: When he was stung by one of his own bees. 298 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: He'd brought some bee hives during lockdown, and one of 299 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 3: his own bees stung him and he had an anaphylactic reaction, 300 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 3: which meant his pilot's license was canceled for another six 301 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 3: months until he got a health check again. 302 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't know how the police got the bees in there, 303 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: but he did. 304 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 3: Well. Him stung by a bee, we were thinking that 305 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: we make an electronic you know, vic pop be that 306 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 3: did it, et cetera. But no, it was just it 307 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: was sheer luck, sheer. 308 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: Luck, because that would be a real hard decision to 309 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: make and you'd probably have to err on the side 310 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: of the cause. And as it got tighter and tighter, 311 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: you couldn't sit on that and let him fly planes. 312 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: You'd have to have to move. So that was fortunate. 313 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes you need those lucky breaks. And that's incredible. I'd 314 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: be really impressive if they managed to orchestrate that. That's 315 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: one of the best undercover operations I've ever seen, getting 316 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: someone stung by a bed. 317 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: Okay, So that's given them some breathing space. 318 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: They're working physical surveillance, electronic surveillance, and covert electronic surveillance. 319 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: And you also addressed the difficulty of getting approval for 320 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: having an electronic surveillance and you know, you've got to 321 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: go through judges and everything that goes with that. And 322 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: it's not just granted, it's not. So they were working 323 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: with the pressures of that. What so what was their 324 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: next move or when did they decide to. 325 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 3: Live on their next move? Because having when they first 326 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 3: put all that surveillance on him. Their thought was, most 327 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 3: times someone has a confidence somewhere in their life. You know, 328 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 3: it can be your wife or your husband, but often 329 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 3: it's not. Often it's whoever you know Joe at the pub, 330 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 3: and they were surprised to realize that Greg didn't have anyone. 331 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 3: He actually didn't have any close friends at all, and 332 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 3: so they thought, well, let's try and give him one 333 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 3: and see if. And so it was going to be 334 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 3: tricky to do. To get someone to become an acquaintance 335 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 3: stroke friend of someone who actively avoided friendship wasn't going 336 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 3: to be easy. So they needed someone with a particular 337 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: set of circumstances that would appeal to Greg, that was 338 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 3: very like minded, et cetera. And they had to go 339 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 3: to Wa to find a cop who had all the 340 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: boxes tipped as someone who could probably pull this off 341 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: for them and get Greg just to slip up for 342 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 3: three to five seconds. All they needed was to him 343 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 3: to say the wrong thing for three to five seconds, 344 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 3: and suddenly the case wouldn't be just circumstantial. They'd have something. 345 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 3: And they had this all in place, and if you remember, 346 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 3: there was a COVID positive test in Perth and Mark 347 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 3: McGowan closed the Wa Borders. 348 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: I love the power of those premieres. 349 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: Let's close the world, I do remember. 350 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: And it was a hard border shutdown and Wa you 351 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: cut itself off from the rest of the world and 352 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 3: they couldn't get him over And so that was like. 353 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: And the detail is in the book and people want 354 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: to find the detail. I can only imagine how frustrating 355 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: that would be and going real like, can we just 356 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: sort this out? But no, A hard lockdown is a 357 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: hard lockdown. Okay, So they've got a case I would 358 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: describe as circumstantial, but a fairly weak circumstantial. 359 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,239 Speaker 2: You put it before the courts. 360 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: You'd be worried about him walking out on it, So 361 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: they need more. There was one other thing that he did, 362 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: if I remember it correctly, after the lockdown was removed 363 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: from Victoria that midnight. First thing he does is drive 364 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: straight straight back, yeah, back down there. 365 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 3: That's the other clue they had, is they and it 366 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 3: was before they had put all the surveillance on it, 367 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 3: because they had so much trouble getting the surveillance on it. 368 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: But when they were checking his phone records and they 369 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 3: realized that after the first lockdown finished at midnight before 370 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 3: one am, his phone was on the road driving straight 371 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 3: back to we want to get highly. 372 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: So who's desperate to get down? 373 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 3: He was desperate to get there, and they did think 374 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: who does that? Well again, there's like defense barishes are 375 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: great at coming up with reasons. But you present that. 376 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: At court and they go, he's been lockdown. Weren't we 377 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: all frustrated during COVID? 378 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: You didn't. We just want to get free, And you go. 379 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: I know, So it's funny you look at it through 380 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: the lens of Okay, Well, that's certainly painting the pitch 381 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: from a prosecution point of view. But the alternative is 382 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: the defense can rip it apart. 383 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 2: So they're still looking for more. 384 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: But they decide they're going to have to move on him, 385 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: and they came up with a plan, as I understand that, 386 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: to put pressure on all the people, priful people, on 387 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: him when he's doing one of these trips when he's 388 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: off grid. So when he comes back, the phone's just 389 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: going to beep and all his friends' associates are going 390 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: to be going, why the police knocking on their door talking. 391 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 3: To m Yeah, they came to the view because the 392 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 3: surveillance that the timeframe for the surveillance sports was running out, 393 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 3: and they knew they wouldn't get another extension, So there's 394 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: a sort of ticking clock here as well. So yes, 395 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 3: they decide, first there's the segment they did on sixty minutes, 396 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 3: and then later at the moment you're talking about, they 397 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 3: felt they needed to rattle him somehow. They had to 398 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: get him rattled so that in an interview situation he'd 399 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 3: tell them more than he might otherwise do, and to 400 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: do that he Jetstar was about to put him back 401 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: in the air again. They didn't want that to happen. 402 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 3: He told Melanie he was going to go camping up 403 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: in the Grampians, which is sort of the Northwest, and 404 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 3: yet they came up with this plan that to really 405 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 3: rattle and panick him that when he came back on 406 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 3: the grid, he would find that almost everybody he knew 407 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 3: suddenly been spoken to. 408 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: And there was a lot of I have jumped ahead, 409 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 1: so I'll wind it back because the use of sixty 410 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: minutes with the media. They'd been consulting with a psychiatrist 411 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: or psychologist about how to put pressure on Greg to 412 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: make him trip up or get further evidence, and the 413 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: opportunity presented itself in sixty Minutes reached out to them 414 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: to do a segment on the story. Yeah, and they 415 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: came to an agreement with Andrew Andrew Stamper. Stamper came 416 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: to an agreement, Yet, we should do it, and we 417 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: control what we're going to release. 418 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and I believe you know sixty Minutes' main 419 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: point was they wanted to do for them. It's human interest. 420 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 3: It's the emotional side, you know, the grief and stress 421 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 3: that the families are going through, and you know, can 422 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: the public help them, etc. And as far as Breton 423 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 3: Andrew Stampho were concerned, it was that's great, can we 424 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,959 Speaker 3: also do this? And although it was dressed up and 425 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: sold to sixty Minutes with how much they believe it 426 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 3: or not, I don't know that it would be an 427 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 3: appeal to the public about the car. For them, it 428 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: was an appeal to one man. They knew he watched 429 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: sixty Minutes. They knew Melanie was interested in the case. 430 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 3: It was all designed for Greg and the idea was, 431 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 3: and I think this came from the psychologists as well, 432 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 3: was if it had been clean and simple Greek sort 433 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 3: of deals with that you know, he's a very cool 434 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: make a checklist, you do that. That's how I deal 435 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 3: with this situation. If it somehow doesn't quite make sense. 436 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 3: It sort of does, but sort of doesn't. He's there going, 437 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 3: what the fuck are they talking about? Is it? Is 438 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: it my car? 439 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: Is it not? 440 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 3: I thought they knew I've already been talked to. If 441 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 3: I have been talked to, why are they doing this 442 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 3: If I haven't, why does it look like my car? 443 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 3: And so the idea was just to throw him off 444 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 3: balance and get him a little bit panicked, and it worked. 445 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: I think that's great use of strategy, using the media 446 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: or taking opportunities and playing that and the subtlety of it. 447 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: That's what I really enjoyed about reading the book and 448 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: really enjoyed full credit to the cops looking at the subtle, 449 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: subtle ways of putting pressure on people, because it's not 450 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: you can't just crash through a door on this. It's 451 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: got to have meaning. So they got the sixty minutes out, 452 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: though he didn't. He went to bed because what was 453 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: it dancing with the start? 454 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 3: It was the block? It was in reality it is 455 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: the finale of the block. So they were frustrated because 456 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 3: he didn't watch it on the on the night because 457 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 3: the block ran over and so it didn't start on schedule. 458 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: So it was watched a couple of days later. 459 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: Okay, So that's sort of pressure, and that's you know, 460 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: and this is what the point I want to make Greg, 461 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: like going through the ball. This is the way a 462 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: murder investigation evolves. This is the way you're trying this, 463 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: and you've put all your hopes there and go, this 464 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: will break it, This will break the person. He's going 465 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: to start talking, and you know, the message to panic 466 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: and confuse him. This is what we want to do 467 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: because that's the type of personality. 468 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, fascinating. 469 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: So wind at forward now to when I said they 470 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: were going to rattle all the people around him when 471 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: he was going off into the bush. What happened there? 472 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: They're surprised. They thought he was going to head to 473 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: the Grampians and they were getting ready to do that, 474 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: but instead that was another lie to Melanie. He headed 475 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: straight back to the one to go a valley and 476 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: that did throw them a little bit and they went, 477 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: oh my god, where's what's he doing? 478 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: Where's he going? So they quickly canceled what they were planning. 479 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 3: To do because they were listening to him in his car. 480 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 3: Microphones were still on in the car, and they realized 481 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 3: he really was stressed, and he really was thinking a 482 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 3: net was closing, and he really didn't quite know, you know, 483 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 3: where this was going and what they knew and what 484 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 3: they didn't know. It got to the point where the 485 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: investigators were they were starting to worry that he would 486 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 3: kill himself. And at that point, if he did, they'd 487 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 3: lose any chance of finding the bodies. They wouldn't be 488 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 3: able to have closure for the families, they wouldn't know 489 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 3: what really happened, they wouldn't even know if it really 490 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 3: was him. So for a whole host of reasons, they said, 491 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 3: we can't let that happen. And so that's when they 492 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 3: called the Special Operations Group and the helicopters swooped in 493 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 3: and he was arrested, and the surveillance worments were about 494 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: to run out anyway, they knew they had to act 495 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 3: within days. But that's when they decided to pounce now, 496 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 3: and we have to arrest him, and we have to 497 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 3: roll the dice on the fact that we have pushed 498 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 3: him to that level that during an interview situation, we 499 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 3: can make that work for us. 500 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: Okay, even that was dramatic in the circumstances because of 501 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: the location. So you got two helicops, we the soggies 502 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: on board being dropped off and then creeping into his 503 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: camp site from every direction. And when the men in 504 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: black jump up and yeah, tell him to not move, 505 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: you're under arrest or whatever comments were made, he didn't. 506 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: React, didn't react at all. So they had someone who 507 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 3: was so stressed out in his car they thought he 508 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 3: might be about to kill himself. And yet when he's confronted, 509 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 3: what do you guys want can help? Scary figures coming 510 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 3: out the teeth? 511 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, in black. 512 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 3: So that's the other side of Greek and we're totally cool, unflappable, nothing. 513 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 3: Just just got to think my way through this, and 514 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: so he just switched. 515 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: Okay. 516 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: So this is a delicate time in the investigation. You've 517 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: got your circumstantial brief, but you don't know whether that's 518 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: enough to get you across the line, whether it's enough 519 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: to charge him. Even at that stage, if that's the 520 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: game that you want, all the path you want to 521 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: go down. So the detectives were looking to get more 522 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: information from him in the interview, and this has been 523 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: it was a contentious interview for a lot of reasons, 524 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: and argued in court and all sorts of things happened 525 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: with it in court. Do you want to just take 526 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: us through the story there? 527 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, well very quickly. I mean one of the things 528 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 3: the book does, which wasn't because that first six hours, 529 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 3: first day and a half of that interview was still 530 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 3: ruled in admissible, so the jury never got to see 531 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 3: that at all. And yet from my perspective, that was 532 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 3: some of the greatest work of the investigation. There was 533 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 3: also a sense that they had to get him talking 534 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 3: because he was the only one who could tell them 535 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 3: where the bodies were, and that their prime priority was 536 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 3: to locate the bodies. They were the Missing Persons squad, 537 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 3: They had spent a lot of time with the families, 538 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: and they I think also they knew that if they 539 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 3: arrested and charged him without finding where the bodies were, 540 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 3: it would be a really, really difficult case. And yet 541 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 3: he was the only one who could tell them where 542 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 3: they were. So that's what the police are confronted with. 543 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 3: They charged with that circumstantial brief of evidence. So I'm 544 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: just thinking from a defense point of view, I'd be 545 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,719 Speaker 3: playing the card they deceived their partners for all these years. 546 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 3: Why don't you think they've deceived us and run off 547 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: and lived happily ever after. So we haven't even got bodies. 548 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: So I don't even have the bodies. Greg's version was that, yes, 549 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 3: Russell had been using his drone to film him while 550 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 3: he was doing a hunt. In Greg's version, he hadn't 551 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 3: done anything wrong on that hunt, but that Russell said 552 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: he had, and that he was going to take that 553 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: footage to the police, et cetera, et cetera, and the 554 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: breach of I was gonna say crime. I guess it 555 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 3: is a crime that Greg admits to is he leaves 556 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: his shotgun on and his rifle on the back seat 557 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 3: of his car, and the properly secure, not properly secure, 558 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: but that night he just left them on the back 559 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: seat with magazines of ammunition on the front seat, and 560 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: that Russell had and he blasted the music up to 561 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 3: really annoy this is Greg Greg Greglin has turned the 562 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: music right up to annoy Russell and Carrol because Russell 563 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: said is going to dob him into the police. Russell's 564 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 3: come over. Russell has not. There's one report his daughter 565 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 3: has of him using what we think was a brake 566 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 3: action shotgun back in the early eighties. Other than that, 567 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: he hasn't He's had an active dislike of shooters and 568 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 3: hunters and hasn't touched a gun in thirty six years. 569 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 3: But he gets Greg's Breatham shotgun from the back seat, 570 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: finds the right magazine of bullets on the front seat 571 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 3: in the dark, loads it in the dark, knows he 572 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 3: has to prime it to be able to fire it, 573 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: fires it twice, then primes it again so that it's 574 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 3: ready to fire again. 575 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: He's clever. 576 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 3: And goes back to his camp with one of the 577 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 3: two guns, leaving the other rifle on the back seat. 578 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 3: You go anyway, This is Greg's version of events. Greg 579 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: goes over to his car to try and actually get 580 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 3: his gun back, and he's crouched down by it because 581 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 3: he hears the second shot, I think. And he crouched down 582 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 3: by the driver's side door of Russell's white Toyota land Cruiser. 583 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 3: He sees Russell put the barrel over the front of 584 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 3: the bonnet. Greg jumps up, wrestles with the gun, puts, 585 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: you know, pulls Russell on the front of the car. 586 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: They're wrestling over the shotgun. It veers like this, it 587 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: goes off accidentally. The shot goes through the side rearview 588 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 3: mirror of the car and hits Carol in the head, 589 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 3: who's crouching down beside the wheel, beside the rear wheel. 590 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 3: And a million to one chance of that happening why 591 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: Carol's there, who knows, But anyway, that's his version having 592 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 3: shot a woman in the head. What Greg does next 593 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: is take the shotgun back to his car, fired in 594 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: the air again to make sure it's unloaded. In other words, 595 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't go and check out Carol is But anyway, 596 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 3: this is the version. And next thing he knows, Russell 597 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 3: is running toward him with a knife, furious because he's 598 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 3: killed his girlfriend. Parry Is Russell. They get into a wrestle, 599 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 3: fall to the ground, and the knife goes through Russell's 600 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 3: heart again. Highly So there are two once in a 601 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 3: lifetime miraculous freak accidents that happen to people twice in 602 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 3: five minutes. Yeah, but it does. There is given what 603 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 3: they found afterwards, because now they know what they're looking 604 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 3: for with all the particles they've raked up from the ground. 605 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 3: Et cetera. They do find some cranial segments from Carol's skull. 606 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 3: They do find some blood spatter inside the canopy of 607 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,959 Speaker 3: the Total land Cruiser when they always thought it was closed. 608 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 3: They do find the bullet which still has Carol's DNA 609 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 3: on it that shot her, So that the evidence that 610 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: Carol was shot while she was crouching down by the 611 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 3: rear wheel of the land cruiser is overwhelming. The evidence 612 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 3: for what happened, And to Russell, there's none. The body's 613 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 3: been completely destroyed in a blue. 614 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: So that's the version of events he's given given the police. 615 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: And this is over a. 616 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 3: Two day or yeah, this is the end of the 617 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 3: end of the second day into the third day. Yeah, okay, 618 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 3: what they've got there at the risk of it being 619 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: thrown out, they would be desperate for the body. How 620 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 3: did they recover any body? 621 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: Party? 622 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 3: He had to tell them the full story. He'd said 623 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 3: where he'd placed the bodies, which was on the Union 624 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: Spur track, which is I think about one hundred and 625 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 3: ten and twenty k's away from the camp. So the 626 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 3: reason why they didn't find anything was it's miles away 627 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 3: on a track that doesn't go anywhere. They but then 628 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,479 Speaker 3: he also said he'd gone back in early November and 629 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 3: he'd burnt both bodies to dust and then destroyed whatever 630 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 3: it was left that wasn't burnt, et cetera, so they 631 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 3: wouldn't find anything. And the cops went up there knowing 632 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 3: they had they'd been warned by the DPP on the 633 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,479 Speaker 3: that come before the end of the third day they 634 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 3: had to charge him. This was getting ridiculed, and so 635 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 3: they drove back, hopefully to find the bodies before they 636 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 3: charged him. But it was just the investigators, it was 637 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 3: Dan and Andrew I think who went back up there. 638 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: It just looked like burnt bark and trees from bushfire. 639 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 640 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, they couldn't identify anything, so they they got into 641 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 3: a forensic psychiatrist who couldn't get there until sorry, forensic 642 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 3: anthropologists who couldn't get there until the following day. So 643 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 3: they they actually charged Greg before they were they'd been 644 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 3: to the spot where he said he'd dropped the bodies 645 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 3: and then destroyed them. They were yet to confirm that 646 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 3: the bodies. 647 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: Were actually their body parts. 648 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they had to charge him anyway. 649 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: So they charged him and the next day they got 650 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: the anthropologist. 651 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, the next day they went up there with Siren, 652 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: and being a forensic anthropologist who's worked in war crime 653 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: zones all around the world, she does know what she's 654 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: looking at. And yeah, there's that line which is in 655 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 3: the book, which is I'm told is real where she 656 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 3: went there, you go, that's a piece of human sterner 657 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 3: and they went, well we found them. That. 658 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of a lot of relief for a 659 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: lot a lot of people. The story and the pressure 660 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: of the investigation, then the fact that two lives have 661 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: been taken, well, yeah, that's can you imagine how terrifying 662 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 1: it would have been. 663 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 3: For it's Yeah, I often think you know when well, 664 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 3: particularly later when Justice Crouch is talking about, you know, 665 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 3: fairness for the accused, he is very big on that. 666 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 3: You think, what was Carol thinking when she was crouching 667 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 3: beside a rear wheel with a shotgun aimed at her head? Yeah, 668 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 3: I know that's and and you know, even in the 669 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 3: interview he's he's after sympathy for himself and how they've 670 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 3: ruined his life, and you think, you know, they've lost 671 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 3: both their lives. 672 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: So again that's what the jury get presented with. 673 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 3: And that's what you know, a lot of people in 674 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 3: the public gallery who sort of knew the biggest story 675 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: we're going So, first of all, the interview in the 676 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 3: statement he did when they first went around to see 677 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 3: him on July fourteen, completely in admissible, thrown out concution. Yeah, 678 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 3: and you're right. Originally the whole record of've new you're 679 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 3: thrown out. Yeah, And I think that that's one of 680 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 3: the points I try and make in the book, is 681 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 3: that is that, Yeah, if if you're saying to a 682 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 3: jury you are the deciders of what is fact and 683 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 3: not fact, then you trust a jury to be able 684 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 3: to take their job very seriously. And I'm told, and 685 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 3: I certainly believed in this case, juries in murder trials 686 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 3: do take their job very seriously. They can decide, you know, 687 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 3: when they think the police are being oppressive, if they're 688 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 3: being oppressive, or when they're not, et cetera. They can 689 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 3: make those decisions on fact and not fact. It's all there, 690 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 3: it's unedited. 691 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 2: You see it all. 692 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: I pushed for an open justice system and show everything, 693 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 1: don't have a filtered version. What was the end result 694 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: with the jury went out the trial ramp for about 695 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: five weeks. 696 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 3: Five weeks, Yeah, and the jury was out for about 697 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 3: eight days. 698 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: Okay. That would been the nervous time for everyone involved. 699 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 3: It would have been at the beginning of the trial, 700 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 3: Gregor's facing two charges of murder and two charges of 701 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 3: manslaughter at the end before the jury retired for reasons 702 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 3: I still find a little bit I can sort of 703 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 3: understand intellectually, but I find it puzzling anyway, they took 704 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 3: manslaughter off the agenda, so he was only and I 705 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 3: think the short position of that is the prosecution's main 706 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 3: case regarding all the incriminating behavior that he'd done. Posts 707 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 3: the deaths could only be explained if he'd murdered them. 708 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 3: Only a murder. We haven't got that, yeah, could only 709 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 3: be explained to my murder or maybe manslaughter. No, it 710 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 3: was only murder. 711 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 2: Okay, that's interesting. 712 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 3: And although the you know, the jury don't need to 713 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 3: explain that. When they came back after eight days, which 714 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 3: is nerve wracking for the cops and the families, and 715 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 3: I'm sure it was ne vacking for greg too. The 716 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 3: first thing they're asked is about Russell, and he's found 717 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 3: not guilty, and you could sort of sense everyone going 718 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 3: because the whole prosecution case had been built on he 719 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 3: must have killed Russell first and then killed Carol because 720 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 3: she was a witness to it. And yet if they'd 721 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 3: found him not guilty of the murder of how are 722 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 3: they going to do that? But when they're asked, they're 723 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 3: verdict on the murder of Carol, they say guilty. And 724 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 3: on the one sense, there's sort of relief from those 725 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 3: who believe he is guilty from the families. It's never 726 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 3: the jury never explains it. The best understanding is given 727 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 3: there was not a scrapper forensic evidence about how Russell 728 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 3: died at all anywhere. Can you say murder beyond reasonable doubt? 729 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 1: Okay, so they might have got stuck on that. 730 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 3: They might have got stuck on. It only needs one 731 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 3: of them to get stuck at the twelve to go, well, 732 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 3: you know, maybe that was Maybe they got into a 733 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 3: fight and it was an accidental, unlawful killing. Maybe it 734 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 3: wasn't murderous intent. So the best thinking is that not 735 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 3: all twelve of them believed they could say he murdered 736 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 3: Russell beyond reasonable doubt to find Carol guilty. I believe 737 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 3: they must have bought the prosecution case that that death 738 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 3: happened first, which is what the cops always believed and 739 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 3: that Carol's murder. 740 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: Was cleaning up, cleaning up witness. 741 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, cleaning up the witness. 742 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: Do you get a sense of how the victim's families felt. 743 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 3: Look, I personally haven't approached the families. They gave a 744 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 3: very dignified statement to the press after that where they 745 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 3: were thanking the police um and they were clearly irritated 746 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 3: by the criminal justice system. I think Russell's daughters in 747 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 3: particular feel particularly aggrieved that he's been found in a 748 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 3: sin of their fathers. 749 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: I can understand their thanks that that that would be 750 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: a real and frustrating feeling the anger for them. So 751 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: it's fascinating case. The detectives. They came under a lot 752 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: of criticism. And it doesn't matter what you do. If 753 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: you go to a murder trial, you're going to be criticized. 754 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: I say that to young homicide detective starting ready, get ready, 755 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: and you can see some people are shocked. But we 756 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: didn't do anything wrong, I know, but we're going to 757 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: get criticized. 758 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 2: It does not matter. 759 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: But for them to do what they did, and they 760 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 1: pushed it, but they pushed it. It wasn't just out 761 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,479 Speaker 1: of vego. It wasn't how it was pushing it for 762 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: the right reason and testing the waters. If they didn't 763 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: go down that path, I dare say that he wouldn't 764 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: be convicted. 765 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: Of any match. 766 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 3: I don't think he would have been. 767 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: And it's you see the frustration with the justice system, 768 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: which I thought should be therefore to serve the society 769 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: that the system set up for. I don't think you'll 770 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: have any police, any reasonable minded police, understanding that you 771 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: need to protect the rights of the accused. We understand, 772 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: we understand that, but I would just like people to 773 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: understand that when you sit down in an interview room 774 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: with someone that you suspect of murder, you haven't got 775 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: a house to sell it. You're not like a real 776 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: estate agent going, hey, Greg, do you want to buy 777 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: this house? They're going to if they're sitting there, they're 778 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: trying to talk their way out of a horrendous crime, 779 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: and you've got to do certain things. 780 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 3: What are the expectations of society? What are the standards 781 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 3: the normal law abiding member of society expects from police 782 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 3: in that situation. 783 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: And at no time did I get the sense in 784 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: the way it's been portrayed that Greg felt intimidated or 785 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: out of his depth. It was his ego that got 786 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: him talking more than you think. That was my take 787 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: on it. Well, it's been a fascinating story in the 788 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: way you've relayed it. And I want to shout out 789 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: for the book, Like, if you want to get a 790 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: sense of what the murder investigation is like, have read 791 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: that book. And that was a horrendous crime that captured 792 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: everyone's attention, wasn't it. 793 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: It was? Yeah? But thanks Gary, thank you. 794 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 2: Is this the start of you your career? It well 795 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 2: could be. 796 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I'd never like to be bored and so 797 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 3: you know, something new, if the right right story came along, I'd. 798 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 2: Have to do it again. 799 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 800 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: Well, I think all those years that were doing the 801 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: TV shows, you learned something from the crooks, You learned 802 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: something from the cops, and you really understand the little 803 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: subtle nuances of what it's all about. What other projects 804 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: are you're working on at the moment. 805 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 3: At the moment, I'm doing an audio series for BBC 806 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 3: Sounds and BBC Radio four over in the UK, and 807 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 3: that's but that's available here in Australia on BBC Sounds, 808 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 3: Google Central Intelligence Stars Kim Katrell and Ed Harris, they're 809 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,879 Speaker 3: big names and yeah, and it was great to see 810 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 3: them work. And it's about the CIA's director of operations 811 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 3: in the forties, fifties and sixties, and all the intent 812 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 3: of the shows to show that to a large degree 813 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 3: or a significant degree, the world we live in now 814 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 3: is because of the operations they ran then in Iran 815 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 3: and Guatemala and Indonesia and Romania and everywhere Chile. 816 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,919 Speaker 2: That's a deep, dark world to dive in. It is, Yeah, 817 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 2: that would be fascinating. 818 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 3: It is fascinating. 819 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: Okay, well, look great to see you. Thanks for coming 820 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: in and pleasure. 821 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 2: All the best. 822 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. I appreciate it. 823 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: Greg Hadrick has a fascinating insight into the world of crime. 824 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: I think it's from all the stories and the TV 825 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: series he's been involved in. His book In the Dead 826 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: of Night is a fascinating read and it really takes 827 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: you on into an insight into what it's like to 828 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: be involved in the police investigation. And whenever we're talking 829 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: about murders, we shouldn't forget the victims, Russell Hill and 830 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: Carol Clay. It was a tragic set of circumstances where 831 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: they lost their lives. Then the du Diem