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Speaker 1: The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives

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Speaker 1: see a side of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For

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Speaker 1: 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to part two of my conversation with Brent Sanders.

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Speaker 1: where he continues to share his extensive knowledge of consent

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Speaker 1: and sexual assault. In part one, we focus on how

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Speaker 1: Brent speaks to young women about these issues. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: we turn to how he engages young men, encouraging them

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Speaker 1: to reflect not only on their own actions, but also

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Speaker 1: on the behaviour of their male peers. We also unpack

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Speaker 1: the terminology around consent, clarifying what it actually means from

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Speaker 1: a legal perspective, and how that already complex picture becomes

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Speaker 1: even harder for teenagers to navigate once alcohol and drugs

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Speaker 1: are added into the mix. Brent Sanders, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: part two of I Catch Killers. Thanks, Gary. Well, I

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Speaker 1: found our part one very informative on the type of

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Speaker 1: messaging you're getting across to... Primarily, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: young women in schools, about sexual assault and different things.

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Speaker 1: We didn't really delve into... Young men, the messaging you're

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Speaker 1: getting across to young men because that's a completely– well,

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Speaker 1: when I say completely different, it's not completely different because

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Speaker 1: I think you need to know both sides. But the

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Speaker 1: messaging to men, I would imagine, or young men, is

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Speaker 1: different to the messaging you're giving young women just by

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Speaker 1: the nature of the offences and who are the predominant

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Speaker 1: offenders profile. How do you differ the lectures or the

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Speaker 1: education that you give to young women? as distinct from

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Speaker 1: when you go into a boys' school?

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Speaker 2: A lot of schools now, like when I do university talks,

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Speaker 2: they bring them all in together. But when I talk

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Speaker 2: just specifically to boys and say we've got a, typically

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Speaker 2: it could be, say, a three-hour time frame, I sort

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Speaker 2: of break that talk with the boys up into two parts.

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Speaker 2: And the first part for sort of one of a

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Speaker 2: title is talking to those young guys about that whole

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Speaker 2: principle around choice and consequence and what sits behind the

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Speaker 2: poor choices that we make. And I talk to them

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Speaker 2: about some of the guys that in my early time,

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Speaker 2: the police, their age that I arrested and charged and

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Speaker 2: the impacts that that can have on them. So the

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Speaker 2: year nine boys, it's that one hour talk about choice,

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Speaker 2: about consequence, about peer pressure. The year 10 talk, we

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Speaker 2: get up into discussing that principle around misuse of phones, sexting, imaging,

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Speaker 2: AI images, deep fake and all that type of thing

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Speaker 2: and all the laws that are around that. Year 11,

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Speaker 2: I talked to them about fatal car accidents and it's

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Speaker 2: the most confronting talk that I do to boys. I

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Speaker 2: do it to girls as well, but just using that example.

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Speaker 2: And I talk about being a first responder and what

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Speaker 2: that's like and how that feels and the impact that

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Speaker 2: these decisions have on families and loved ones. And I, again,

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Speaker 2: you know, I relate it back to Experiences I had

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Speaker 2: as a young copper. I policed in New Zealand where

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Speaker 2: you got your driver's license when you were 15.

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Speaker 1: It's young, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. So that's year nine. That's no L plates,

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Speaker 2: no P plates. That was walking into the equivalent of

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Speaker 2: the RTA on your 15th birthday and getting a full license.

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Speaker 2: I was in three serious car accidents in year 10,

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Speaker 2: one that I created and two others I was a passenger.

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Speaker 2: And that was just, that wasn't out of the ordinary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I talked to the boys about, you know, as a

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Speaker 2: young 19-year-old copper attending these fatals. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: you'd agree, Gary, when I say to the boys, if

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Speaker 2: you lined up 100 police, you know, behind me, whether

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Speaker 2: they've been in the job 5, 10, 20, 30 years,

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Speaker 2: I reckon nearly all of them would tell you the

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Speaker 2: worst job you can ever do in the police is

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Speaker 2: death notices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Walking up that driveway. Oh, it's horrible. At midnight, you know,

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Speaker 2: porch lights on for a young bloke that's in the

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Speaker 2: mortuary because you just dragged him out of a car.

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Speaker 2: And you knock on that door and you've got to

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Speaker 2: tell the parents. And you know you're going to destroy

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Speaker 2: someone's life. Oh, you destroy the lives and the kids

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Speaker 2: coming out. You know, we've been there. And then you

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Speaker 2: get mum and dad the car to the mortuary to

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Speaker 2: do the ID. And then you've got to. And I

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Speaker 2: go through that with the boys. And I say, in

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Speaker 2: different parts of that talk, I say, boys, this is

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Speaker 2: all the result of a heartbeat decision made by a

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Speaker 2: young man in the car. As simple as coming towards

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Speaker 2: a corner where if he's in the car on his own,

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Speaker 2: he hits the brakes and goes around the corner. if

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Speaker 2: he's in the car with his mates, he's thinking, oh,

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Speaker 2: I better not hit the brakes. Oh, I'll hit the accelerator.

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Speaker 2: I'll give it a go. And get a laugh from

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Speaker 2: his mates. Sometimes you get around it. And I say,

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Speaker 2: sometimes you don't. And when you don't, let me explain

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Speaker 2: to you. So it's that. It's a heavy talk. But

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Speaker 2: it's the same theme all the way through. And then

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Speaker 2: with those year 12 boys, that's when I get into discussion.

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Speaker 2: I'll do this with younger boys in other schools. But

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Speaker 2: because they do it tiered like this, that's when I

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Speaker 2: talk to those boys about, that same principle with regard

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Speaker 2: to choices that you're making with intimate exchanges with other people,

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Speaker 2: you know, around consent and around alcohol with consent and

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Speaker 2: how all that works. Now, there's, of course, there's a

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Speaker 2: plethora of other things that can be spoken about. You know,

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Speaker 2: I go into boys' schools where I'll walk in on

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Speaker 2: the back of someone who goes in to talk about

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Speaker 2: the impacts of the manosphere and, you know, pornography and

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Speaker 2: all that type of thing. And that's fantastic. I don't

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Speaker 2: touch on that, nor do they touch on the stuff

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Speaker 2: that I do. So most schools now, and some that

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Speaker 2: get the most criticism, do the most work in this space.

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Speaker 2: They are constantly presenting to boys at all different age groups,

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Speaker 2: different levels, different messages. So I'm just sort of a

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Speaker 2: small part on that. But I feel that if I

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Speaker 2: can do my job properly in front of young men,

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Speaker 2: the young men, I'm hoping the reaction they have when

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Speaker 2: they walk away is not that they've some blokes come

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Speaker 2: in and hit them over the head with a big stick.

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Speaker 2: Because we need to be very careful, I think, in

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Speaker 2: society at some of the blanket labeling that gets applied

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Speaker 2: to young men. Because some young men do terrible or

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Speaker 2: bad things. There's a tendency to label then all young

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Speaker 2: men under that. And that then leaves room for natural

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Speaker 2: pushback for you know, human beings, pigs of human beings

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Speaker 2: like the Andrew Taits and stuff of this world, to

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Speaker 2: get into the ears of those guys and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: listen to this message, you know, so you get that

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Speaker 2: other extreme. And so I never stand up in front

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Speaker 2: of a group of young men assuming that they're all

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Speaker 2: going to run around and do the stuff that I

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Speaker 2: talk about.

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Speaker 1: Peer group pressure.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a big thing as a young male,

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Speaker 1: that you do stupid things because your mates are egging

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Speaker 1: you on. Yeah. invariably, I think if we're relating to

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Speaker 1: sexual assaults in those teenage years, and I think you

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Speaker 1: identified in part one that the likelihood of a female

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Speaker 1: being a victim is in those late teenage years or

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Speaker 1: the teenage years.

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Speaker 2: That's correct.

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Speaker 1: And also there's a strong likelihood it'll be a young

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Speaker 1: male at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Almost without exception, it's someone in their social group. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, the I know we spoke about the psychology

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Speaker 2: of those strange offenders and things. As you and I know,

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Speaker 2: that's a very rare occurrence, statistically very rare. Overwhelmingly, sexual

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Speaker 2: crimes committed at that high school age are committed. between

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Speaker 2: young people of similar age within the same social group.

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Speaker 1: And often there's alcohol, there's that little bit of freedom

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Speaker 1: that comes when you become a teenager and you're allowed

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Speaker 1: out at night and alcohol involved. Consent, to me, seems

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Speaker 1: to be the most confusing issue for everyone around that time.

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Speaker 1: Let's break it down for the message for young males,

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Speaker 1: what consent actually means. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when I talk to young men, and young men,

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Speaker 2: but young men about consent, I just break it down

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Speaker 2: into three legal components. We look at age of consent. Now,

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Speaker 2: age of consent is 16, and they all know that.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of my audiences are 15 and 16,

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Speaker 2: year 10 and year 11. So when you've got a

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Speaker 2: group of, say, 150 year 10 boys, I get a

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Speaker 2: show of hands. I'll say, boys, what's age of consent?

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Speaker 2: And they'll say 16. I said, OK, well, we know

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Speaker 2: what that means, don't we? I said, put your hand

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Speaker 2: up if you've turned 16. Usually this time of year,

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Speaker 2: probably about half, three quarters. Put your hand up if

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Speaker 2: you're still 15. put your hand up if you're going

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Speaker 2: to turn 16 before the end of the year. Now,

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Speaker 2: what about the stragglers, year 11? So they're all either 16,

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Speaker 2: about to turn 16. So suddenly this whole age of

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Speaker 2: consent thing lands differently for them than just this glib statement, oh,

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Speaker 2: age of consent is 16. So I say, now boys,

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Speaker 2: once you turn 16, the law deems that you're now

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Speaker 2: a sexual adult. Ironically, the day before you were still

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Speaker 2: a sexual child. It's a strange concept, but You are

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Speaker 2: now legally entitled to engage intimately with other sexual adults

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Speaker 2: as long as you have their consent. And they're all nodding.

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Speaker 2: They all know this. I said, and boys, would it

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Speaker 2: be fair to say an adult can't engage sexually with

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Speaker 2: a child? They go, no, absolutely not. Can a child

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Speaker 2: give consent?

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: Now, they know that. But then because of the age group,

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Speaker 2: you can say, okay, what about if we've got, say,

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Speaker 2: using some age engine, what about if we've got a

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Speaker 2: young girl who's 15 and she's going out with a

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Speaker 2: bloke who's 16 or 17? And they are at the

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Speaker 2: girl's house and they choose to have an intimate exchange.

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Speaker 2: We run through that. So they've told me the law.

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Speaker 2: Then you run it through something which is very familiar

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Speaker 2: for them. And then what you realize is they know

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Speaker 2: the statutes. but they don't know the common law application

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Speaker 2: of Romeo and Juliet. So there is no more important

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Speaker 2: age to talk about that than to students that are

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Speaker 2: close to. But I tell you, I've had people sitting

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Speaker 2: on the outsides of my seminars who aren't students say

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Speaker 2: to me, I was totally against you telling these students

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Speaker 2: about Romeo and Juliet. I said, why? It's the law.

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Speaker 2: It's the law. And now, if you don't like the law, okay,

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Speaker 2: change it. It's like saying, I didn't like you telling

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Speaker 2: the students what the speed limit was outside the front

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Speaker 2: of the school. Change it. But while it's still there. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, Romeo and Juliet is an important component of

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Speaker 2: consent law when you're talking to students that age. Now,

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Speaker 2: Romeo and Juliet has slightly different applications, different states in Australia.

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Speaker 2: But generally, most Western countries, all Western countries have age

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Speaker 2: of consent. And they pretty much all have that Romeo

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Speaker 2: and Juliet, that common law. So for the listeners, what

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Speaker 2: that really means is statute states age of consent, New

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Speaker 2: South Wales, 16. Common law, and they label it Romeo

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Speaker 2: and Juliet, allows a bit of flexibility around the edges.

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Speaker 2: So if two young people in New South Wales engage

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Speaker 2: intimately and one is just under 16 and one is

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Speaker 2: just over, if police are called, they'll apply Romeo and Juliet.

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Speaker 2: How does that apply? Well, there are two checkpoints. We

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Speaker 2: look at their ages. Are they within two years of

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Speaker 2: each other's age? So Romeo and Juliet works pretty much

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Speaker 2: down to age 14. So you could have a 14-year-old

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Speaker 2: and a 16-year-old, but they're within two years. You could

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Speaker 2: have 15 and 16. You could have 15 and 17.

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Speaker 2: Those situations, the law would say, if they're within two

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Speaker 2: years of each other's age, the next test is, and

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Speaker 2: it's practical application is, police would just separate the two

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Speaker 2: young folks in the house, have a chat to them,

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Speaker 2: to satisfy or confirm that they were both willing participants

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Speaker 2: to the intimacy. So we don't use the word consent

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Speaker 2: because it can't be applied to a child under 16,

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Speaker 2: all that. So you tell the students that and you say,

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Speaker 2: now this is not society saying we encourage people underage

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Speaker 2: to run. This is society saying the spirit behind age

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Speaker 2: of consent is to protect children from adults, to protect

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Speaker 2: children from sexual predators. So the application of that law

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Speaker 2: is always going to be different when those ages are

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Speaker 2: within two years. So Romeo and Juliet is within two

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Speaker 2: years and willing participants. The police would then step back

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Speaker 2: and say, this is a parental matter. It's not a

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Speaker 2: policing matter. And this gets a whole lot of questions

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Speaker 2: from these kids. Now, yeah, we can then have the

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Speaker 2: moral ethical discussion.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it gets a whole lot of questions because

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Speaker 1: the kids that would, there'd be a lot of people

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Speaker 1: caught up in that situation.

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Speaker 2: For sure. And they're entitled to know what the law is.

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Speaker 2: So then that's that. Next area that I talk about

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Speaker 2: a consent is the effects of alcohol and drugs. And

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Speaker 2: this is quite a big one, particularly when those students

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Speaker 2: are year 11 and 12. There was a, I think

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Speaker 2: it might have been Sydney Uni punched out a study

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Speaker 2: a year or so back. They estimated at a social

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Speaker 2: function this weekend in Sydney attended by, say, senior high

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Speaker 2: school students year 11 and year 12-ish. If a sexual

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Speaker 2: offense is committed, up to 90% of the time, it'll

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Speaker 2: be committed against somebody who's incapable of consent due to

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Speaker 2: the effects of alcohol and drugs. So from year 10 up,

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Speaker 2: students know the mantra, a drunk person can't consent. And

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Speaker 2: I'll present it to them like that. Even with year 10s,

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Speaker 2: I'll say, if you're at a party this weekend, there

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Speaker 2: with your friends, and you look across the lounge room

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Speaker 2: and you can see someone there is really drunk, can

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Speaker 2: they consent? And they'll all in chorus go, no, absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: Drunk person can't consent. It's when you take the next step,

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Speaker 2: you find that there's a lack of knowledge and you

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Speaker 2: get real inconsistency. And the next thing I'll ask is, okay,

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Speaker 2: if a drunk person can't consent, what is the legal

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Speaker 2: test to determine that? It's crickets. The most common answer

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Speaker 2: I get right up until university age when you ask

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Speaker 2: what's the test is, oh, it's the breathalyzer test. And

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Speaker 2: I mean, you and I would laugh at that, not

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Speaker 2: to be flippant, but it's like, who's packing a breathalyzer

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Speaker 2: at a party? And even if you did breathalyze someone,

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Speaker 2: there's no actual breathalyzer number that correlates to consent, technically.

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Speaker 2: So it's quite interesting to hear all the different versions.

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Speaker 2: I've had students say to me, oh, if 11 people

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Speaker 2: agree that someone's drunk, then they're too drunk to consent.

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Speaker 2: I had a chap recently say, oh, I'm If I

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Speaker 2: have an intimate exchange at a party with someone, that's

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Speaker 2: fine just so long as they haven't had more than

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Speaker 2: two standard drinks than what I've had. So get all this. Now,

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Speaker 2: I'm not having a go at them. They're getting that

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Speaker 2: from somewhere. They're getting it off the internet. They're getting

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Speaker 2: it from somewhere. They're mates. But that's where you realize

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Speaker 2: the value of saying, well, let me tell you what

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Speaker 2: the actual test is. So I tell them. And it's

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Speaker 2: a very simple test. Under law, and it's pretty much

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Speaker 2: the same in all states, to consent, the law says

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Speaker 2: a person must be sober. The law basically says a

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Speaker 2: person is no longer sober enough to consent once they've

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Speaker 2: consumed enough alcohol or drugs that they are clearly showing

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Speaker 2: substantial effects of drugs or alcohol, and those effects could

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Speaker 2: be observed by a reasonable person. So that reasonable person

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Speaker 2: test is the cornerstone to legal interpretation. So it's an

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Speaker 2: observational test, and substantial effects of alcohol or drugs, if

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Speaker 2: you look at it in, say, a courtroom-type environment, can

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Speaker 2: be stuff know, physical impairment, verbal, cognitive, all that, all

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Speaker 2: that stuff. So, so you tell the kids that and

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Speaker 2: they're going, oh, okay. So it's not the breathalyzer test.

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Speaker 2: It's not that they've had five drinks, seven drinks.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: How do you know how many drinks a person's had?

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Speaker 2: I said, so you can apply this test. If you're

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Speaker 2: at a party, look across the room at say midnight

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Speaker 2: and let's say there's 10 people. Apply this test of

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Speaker 2: those 10 people who's failed it. So let's say of

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Speaker 2: those 10 people, they've all been drinking. but to varying degrees.

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Speaker 2: And eight of them haven't consumed enough alcohol or drugs.

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Speaker 2: And the test for alcohol and drugs is the same

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Speaker 2: because it's an observational test. Eight of them haven't consumed

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Speaker 2: enough alcohol or drugs for it to be affecting them

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Speaker 2: so that you can't see it. Well, they haven't failed

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Speaker 2: the test yet. But let's say two out of the 10,

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Speaker 2: you can look at them and you can see they're

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Speaker 2: weaving around and anyone who's weaving around, balance is not good,

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Speaker 2: go and have a chat to them. They'll be slurring speech,

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Speaker 2: they're cognitively gone. Every courtroom in Australia a judge will

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Speaker 2: advise a jury. If that has been proven to you

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Speaker 2: beyond reasonable doubt, well, you must conclude that this person

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Speaker 2: was incapable of consent. So what that does, it takes

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Speaker 2: the kids from the statement, a drunk person can't consent,

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Speaker 2: and having no idea what it means, to having the

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Speaker 2: actual test in their back pocket so that they can

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Speaker 2: apply it on Saturday night. And I'd say to them,

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Speaker 2: I'd tell my son and my daughter this. I'd say

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Speaker 2: to my son and his mates, you know, when you're

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Speaker 2: driving them in year 11, year 12 to a party,

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Speaker 2: just remember, boys, you know, if you want to have

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Speaker 2: an interaction with someone tonight, that's totally fine. If you

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Speaker 2: want to initiate, that's none of my business. But just remember,

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Speaker 2: the later it is at night, you know, you get

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Speaker 2: to this party at 8 o'clock and you're there and

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Speaker 2: there's girls there and there's people there that started drinking

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Speaker 2: pre's at 6 o'clock and you're having a chat to

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Speaker 2: one of those girls, say, out the back at midnight.

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Speaker 2: She may well have been drinking pretty solidly for six hours. Now,

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Speaker 2: if someone's been drinking pretty solidly for six hours, your

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Speaker 2: size and mine, they're probably going to fail that legal test.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So how could a young woman who weighs 50 kilos

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Speaker 2: pass it?

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Speaker 1: And drinking for possibly first time.

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Speaker 2: Got to be careful. We just got to be careful.

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Speaker 2: Just another aspect of this, with the older students, and

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Speaker 2: if I'm doing sort of like orientation talks coming into uni's,

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Speaker 2: I'll peel that onion one more layer and I'll compare

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Speaker 2: it to the RSA, the Responsible Service of Alcohol Test,

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Speaker 2: because it's identical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's exactly the same. Very similar, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: And it's a very tangible thing then. I remember chatting to,

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Speaker 2: I was doing a lecture up at UNE up in

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Speaker 2: Armidale and a bloke came in and sat down, came up,

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Speaker 2: had a bit of a yarn to me afterwards. He

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Speaker 2: was head of the sex crimes unit for New England,

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Speaker 2: a big geographic. And he was saying, mate, it's so

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Speaker 2: good to hear someone putting that into context for these kids.

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Speaker 2: He said, because sadly- every year I have to send

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Speaker 2: detectives up here to the university to investigate allegations of

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Speaker 2: sexual crime. He said, almost without exception, they involve high

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Speaker 2: levels of alcohol, drugs. He said, the last thing these

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Speaker 2: young detectives will hear when they walk out of my office,

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Speaker 2: remember if the victim of this offence fails the RSA,

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Speaker 2: they can't consent. So you say to kids, if you

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Speaker 2: rock up to a pub in Sydney this weekend, You

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Speaker 2: know there's two legal tests you have to pass. You've

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Speaker 2: got to show that you're 18, whether you are or not.

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Speaker 2: You've got to have ID, show the bloke on the

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Speaker 2: big unit on the door. He'll have a look at it,

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Speaker 2: give it back to you. I said, but you're not

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Speaker 2: in the pub yet. I said, what happens then? Because

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Speaker 2: the guy, he just starts chatting to you. And I said, yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: that's called the responsible service of alcohol test. There's a

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Speaker 2: legal requirement that he has to make sure that you

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Speaker 2: pass that before you're allowed to go in. And so

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Speaker 2: he'll say to you, where have you been tonight? Have

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Speaker 2: you been drinking? How many drinks have you had? I said,

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Speaker 2: you know how you fail the RSA? You fail the

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Speaker 2: RSA if through the observation of that person, you are

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Speaker 2: clearly showing substantial effects of alcohol or drugs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I said, it is exactly the same as the test

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Speaker 2: applied by detectives in the sex crimes unit who are

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Speaker 2: called to a party at midnight because friends have lost

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Speaker 2: track of a, say, a girl. They find her in

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Speaker 2: a room. She's really drunk. Guy's doing stuff to her.

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Speaker 2: He does a run Police are called. That's where it starts.

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Speaker 2: So it gives that whole thing a real tangible thing

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Speaker 2: for the kids. Once you can see someone's drunk.

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Speaker 1: I like using the analogy because they'll know the situation

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Speaker 1: in licensed premises and getting in there if they're when

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Speaker 1: they've been turned away or not allowed into the club.

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Speaker 1: I suppose giving them that something that they can process

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Speaker 1: in their mind, they're not getting caught up in the

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Speaker 1: definition of, well, is it 0.02 or 0.05? Exactly. Exactly.

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Speaker 2: So you've got to keep it simple. And there's a

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Speaker 2: question that then comes up too, which is a very

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Speaker 2: valid one. I was over in Bathurst recently and a

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Speaker 2: young fellow in year 12 said, he said, if say

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Speaker 2: there's a guy at a party who's had a couple

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Speaker 2: of beers and he targets a girl that is so drunk,

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Speaker 2: everyone can see. So he isolates her and You know,

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Speaker 2: a crime is committed. He said, how does this same

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Speaker 2: offense or crime work if he said two people at

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Speaker 2: a party, both really drunk to the same degree?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a valid question.

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Speaker 2: And they do stuff intimately and each person's initiating stuff

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Speaker 2: against the other and everything else. So there's this equality

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Speaker 2: going through. He said, what if one of those two

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Speaker 2: people goes to the police the following day and says, hey, look,

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Speaker 2: I was at this party, got really drunk. Somebody... had

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Speaker 2: an intimate exchange with me, I want them charged. I said, well,

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Speaker 2: that's a valid question. I said, and I'll be as

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Speaker 2: honest as I can when I answer it. If you're

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Speaker 2: in a position to investigate something like that, and that's

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Speaker 2: the evidence that you're working with, I said, the first

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Speaker 2: step in a police investigation is to ask, can we

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Speaker 2: clearly identify an offender and a victim? So in your

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Speaker 2: earlier example, guys had two or three drinks, targets a

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Speaker 2: girl who everyone at the party can see is drunk

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Speaker 2: off her face, isolates her. I said, we can see that,

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Speaker 2: can't we? Offend a victim.

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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: I said, when two people are drunk or drug affected

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Speaker 2: to the same degree and they're interacting with each other, initiating,

430
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,340
Speaker 2: having an issue, I said, can you see it is

431
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 2: almost impossible in that, given that, to identify a fin

432
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,260
Speaker 2: of victim? I said, so it would be extremely unlikely

433
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 2: under those circumstances for an investigation to be able to proceed.

434
00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,109
Speaker 2: I said, it's a little bit like if two people

435
00:22:01,150 --> 00:22:04,070
Speaker 2: are fighting in a pub. Is that just two people

436
00:22:04,130 --> 00:22:06,790
Speaker 2: fighting in a pub or did one assault and the

437
00:22:06,830 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 2: other one's defending themselves in the absence of being able to, well,

438
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 2: we can't charge both. It's a little bit like that.

439
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: They both bumped into each other. All that.

440
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,310
Speaker 2: I said the law is not perfect. It's far from it.

441
00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:20,250
Speaker 2: And yes, there are ingredients that when you put them

442
00:22:20,270 --> 00:22:24,050
Speaker 2: into the context make what is a very high-level investigation

443
00:22:24,090 --> 00:22:26,350
Speaker 2: with many, many steps to it if you can't take

444
00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:28,790
Speaker 2: the first step. Who's the offender? Who's the victim? Very

445
00:22:28,830 --> 00:22:29,550
Speaker 2: difficult to take the others.

446
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:33,550
Speaker 1: You're breaking it down from a legalistic point of view

447
00:22:33,609 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: and understanding the issues that come in this. Yeah, we'll

448
00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:41,300
Speaker 1: call them the teenage parties, which we've all been there,

449
00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:45,929
Speaker 1: done that when we know potentially what can happen. Is

450
00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:48,910
Speaker 1: there any part of what you're telling the young men,

451
00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:51,550
Speaker 1: and does this fly with them? If you do, call

452
00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:53,010
Speaker 1: them on about doing the right thing.

453
00:22:53,070 --> 00:22:54,850
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%. It is a component.

454
00:22:54,990 --> 00:22:56,899
Speaker 1: Do you push that aspect of it? I do.

455
00:22:57,030 --> 00:22:59,730
Speaker 2: And I really, often it focuses around that whole party

456
00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:02,430
Speaker 2: thing with drinks. And I say, fellas, here's the analogy

457
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:03,050
Speaker 2: that I'll use.

458
00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:03,290
Speaker 1: Yeah.

459
00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:06,710
Speaker 2: I say, boys, I'm not saying that I think you're

460
00:23:06,730 --> 00:23:09,130
Speaker 2: going to go out and target girls who are drunk.

461
00:23:09,170 --> 00:23:09,340
Speaker 1: Yeah.

462
00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 2: I can't recall a sexual offense given these ingredients being

463
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,020
Speaker 2: committed where it's not male to female.

464
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:15,300
Speaker 1: Yeah.

465
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,540
Speaker 2: And I said, you know, when university studies tell us

466
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,350
Speaker 2: up to 90% of sex crimes committed at parties, you know,

467
00:23:20,369 --> 00:23:22,629
Speaker 2: in this age group are committed against people who are

468
00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:25,570
Speaker 2: clearly affected by alcohol or drugs. I said, what those

469
00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:28,930
Speaker 2: studies are actually presenting to you is a selection process

470
00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:31,270
Speaker 2: of the offender. You could have 50 people at a

471
00:23:31,310 --> 00:23:34,290
Speaker 2: party and 49 of them could look at a girl

472
00:23:34,350 --> 00:23:37,449
Speaker 2: who's drunk and it never, ever enters their mind that

473
00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:39,609
Speaker 2: I'm going to do something to her. But you only

474
00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: need one. And I said, you know, that guy is

475
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 2: the guy walking around at midnight, looking around. sees that girl.

476
00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 2: She's clearly drunk. She's staggering around. If his intention is

477
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,060
Speaker 2: to do what we're talking about, in my experience, he

478
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,070
Speaker 2: will be drawn to that girl like a moth to

479
00:23:55,109 --> 00:23:58,250
Speaker 2: a light bulb. Yeah, that's reasonable. So he'll keep an

480
00:23:58,350 --> 00:24:00,430
Speaker 2: eye on her. Now, the next stage of the process

481
00:24:00,490 --> 00:24:03,830
Speaker 2: is he has to isolate that girl either from friends

482
00:24:03,890 --> 00:24:06,990
Speaker 2: or wait till she isolates herself. I said, because if

483
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,020
Speaker 2: we break these type of crimes down, they are committed

484
00:24:10,180 --> 00:24:13,179
Speaker 2: at parties, but they're not committed at a populated location

485
00:24:13,220 --> 00:24:16,540
Speaker 2: within the parties. So these crimes are committed in rooms

486
00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:19,050
Speaker 2: off the hallway, upstairs, down the back of a garden,

487
00:24:19,070 --> 00:24:21,090
Speaker 2: in a garage, when the kids are older and cars

488
00:24:21,150 --> 00:24:24,410
Speaker 2: out the front. I said, boys, I don't think you

489
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:26,949
Speaker 2: have to be a frigging detective in the sex crimes

490
00:24:27,030 --> 00:24:30,410
Speaker 2: unit to look at that and know it's got spiders

491
00:24:30,450 --> 00:24:33,390
Speaker 2: all over it. I said, we can see where that's heading.

492
00:24:33,510 --> 00:24:36,690
Speaker 2: I said, so what I would expect of my son

493
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,699
Speaker 2: is what I would expect of you. You get in

494
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,780
Speaker 2: touch with your better self. You put your drink down,

495
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: you walk over there, and you get him to pull

496
00:24:45,740 --> 00:24:51,060
Speaker 2: his head in. I said, that intervention is fairly low level.

497
00:24:51,420 --> 00:24:52,899
Speaker 2: Even just walking up, go, mate, mate, mate, come here,

498
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,659
Speaker 2: come here. She's shit-faced, mate. Come over here. I've got

499
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: a beer for you. Whatever, whatever it is.

500
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,619
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be confrontational.

501
00:24:56,660 --> 00:25:00,700
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be confrontational. Bring him over. I said,

502
00:25:01,350 --> 00:25:05,310
Speaker 2: you have potentially saved that young girl going through a

503
00:25:05,369 --> 00:25:08,949
Speaker 2: horrendous sexual confrontation that will be with her for the

504
00:25:08,990 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 2: rest of her life. I had a young guy, mate.

505
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,580
Speaker 2: He came up to me at the end of year

506
00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:14,909
Speaker 2: 12 talk, just quietly. He said, mate, he said, I

507
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,830
Speaker 2: always remembered you spoke about that stuff at parties and things.

508
00:25:17,869 --> 00:25:19,530
Speaker 2: He said, I was at a party earlier in the year.

509
00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:23,010
Speaker 2: And he said, I saw this really drunk girl walk

510
00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:24,970
Speaker 2: through the lounge room. And she was sort of bumping

511
00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:27,030
Speaker 2: into people and stuff. And she walked up a hallway

512
00:25:27,050 --> 00:25:29,989
Speaker 2: to go to a bathroom. He said, I saw her

513
00:25:30,050 --> 00:25:32,169
Speaker 2: go up. He said, I didn't pay too much attention

514
00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:33,500
Speaker 2: to it. He said, I knew her, but not that well.

515
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: And then he said, I saw a bloke from the

516
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,690
Speaker 2: other side of the room put his drink down. make

517
00:25:38,730 --> 00:25:40,550
Speaker 2: his way through and follow up the hallway, sort of

518
00:25:40,570 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: looking over his shoulder like this. And he said, he

519
00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:45,420
Speaker 2: was a big unit, big footy boy. He said, I'm

520
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:47,980
Speaker 2: not even a little fella. And he said, I, I,

521
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: I won't lie to you. He said, I was a

522
00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: bit scared. He said, but I couldn't stand there and

523
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 2: not do anything. He said, so I put my drink down.

524
00:25:56,260 --> 00:25:58,340
Speaker 2: He said, I walked up. He said, I didn't confront

525
00:25:58,380 --> 00:26:00,570
Speaker 2: the guy at all. I actually walked around him and

526
00:26:00,609 --> 00:26:03,290
Speaker 2: I put my arm around the girl. And I said

527
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:05,929
Speaker 2: to the guy, mate, thanks so much for looking out

528
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:09,170
Speaker 2: for her. She's, she's a mate, sister. I was trying

529
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:11,830
Speaker 2: to find her. She's really drunk. Mate, you're a good man.

530
00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:15,310
Speaker 2: Thanks so much. The guy was so like, oh, okay, mate.

531
00:26:15,609 --> 00:26:17,129
Speaker 2: He said, mate, I had it back in the lounge room.

532
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:19,250
Speaker 2: He said, my heart's going like this. He said, because

533
00:26:19,270 --> 00:26:21,690
Speaker 2: that bloke could have broken me in two. He said,

534
00:26:21,770 --> 00:26:24,869
Speaker 2: I didn't confront him, but I did step in. And

535
00:26:24,890 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: he said, I'm not wanting any medals or anything for it.

536
00:26:27,130 --> 00:26:28,530
Speaker 2: He said, but I just wanted to tell you I

537
00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:29,490
Speaker 2: did it and it worked.

538
00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:33,250
Speaker 1: So I think that's gold, little things like that.

539
00:26:33,270 --> 00:26:34,570
Speaker 2: And that's all it takes, mate, isn't it?

540
00:26:34,609 --> 00:26:37,610
Speaker 1: Because you're so ignorant at that age and what you're

541
00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: going through with all the testosterone, everything happening, you throw

542
00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:44,100
Speaker 1: the alcohol, drugs into the mix.

543
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,020
Speaker 2: It's a hell of a mix. You've just got to stop,

544
00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:48,659
Speaker 2: just take a breath, just look, just think, okay, what

545
00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:49,179
Speaker 2: can I do here?

546
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,790
Speaker 1: And the scenarios you're painting perhaps would appear in virtually

547
00:26:53,950 --> 00:26:55,330
Speaker 1: every teenager's party.

548
00:26:55,390 --> 00:26:55,890
Speaker 2: At some point.

549
00:26:55,910 --> 00:27:00,060
Speaker 1: That type of situation going on. So that messaging that

550
00:27:00,190 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: comes across to the young men, you think it's sinking in?

551
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: You'd like to think so, mate. I mean, you know,

552
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 2: we're constantly hearing about, you know, in the media just

553
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,060
Speaker 2: in the last month or so, we've had the allegations

554
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: against the young boys at Scots, the allegations against the

555
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,990
Speaker 2: slightly older but still young boys at Gregory's. We've got

556
00:27:19,010 --> 00:27:22,290
Speaker 2: the Sydney Swans stuff rolling around. So nobody can sit

557
00:27:22,350 --> 00:27:24,250
Speaker 2: in my position and say, oh, look at me, I'm

558
00:27:24,270 --> 00:27:27,310
Speaker 2: a knight in shining armor. I've eliminated everything. And people

559
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: say to me, Well, if what you do is so great,

560
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,770
Speaker 2: why is it still happening? And the only somewhat glib

561
00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:35,370
Speaker 2: response I can give is, well, imagine how much worse

562
00:27:35,410 --> 00:27:37,149
Speaker 2: it would be if people like me hadn't spent the

563
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:38,370
Speaker 2: last 30 years.

564
00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:41,260
Speaker 1: Exactly. That's not a reason not to try.

565
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:45,730
Speaker 2: You've got to keep doing it. And even if the

566
00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:48,510
Speaker 2: evidence I get back is of these occasional things of

567
00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:52,379
Speaker 2: people telling me through something they heard, well, there's one

568
00:27:52,390 --> 00:27:53,100
Speaker 2: that we've avoided.

569
00:27:53,330 --> 00:27:53,470
Speaker 1: Yeah.

570
00:27:53,690 --> 00:27:55,690
Speaker 2: There's one that didn't happen. Now, you know, I've put

571
00:27:55,710 --> 00:27:58,230
Speaker 2: a million students through. They've all got the same information.

572
00:27:58,250 --> 00:28:00,770
Speaker 2: You'd like to think as they go out and impart

573
00:28:00,790 --> 00:28:04,010
Speaker 2: that to others, you're having some sort of positive influence

574
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:07,060
Speaker 2: over these choices, these outcomes. But yeah.

575
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,379
Speaker 1: Just finishing up on the young adults, the consequences of

576
00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: their actions too. Do you explain that? I do. Because

577
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,100
Speaker 1: when you look at the penalties for these offences. Yeah.

578
00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:22,070
Speaker 2: I can't remember a seminar I've presented to young women

579
00:28:22,109 --> 00:28:23,950
Speaker 2: in over 30 years on sexual crime where I don't

580
00:28:23,970 --> 00:28:27,889
Speaker 2: get disclosures. I can't remember one. And in behind all

581
00:28:27,910 --> 00:28:30,790
Speaker 2: of those stories are the actions of generally young men

582
00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:34,389
Speaker 2: of similar age. So it's a constant, it's like a bushfire.

583
00:28:34,410 --> 00:28:36,810
Speaker 2: You're just trying to contain it, trying to contain it,

584
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,660
Speaker 2: you know. And the boys, I say to the guys,

585
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: I say, as men, we need to take ownership of this.

586
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,020
Speaker 2: You know, when we hear allegations, and that's all they

587
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: are at this stage of, the highest level of sexual

588
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,060
Speaker 2: crime you can commit under New South Wales Crimes Act,

589
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:58,220
Speaker 2: being leveled against two 14-year-olds and a 13-year-old. I said,

590
00:28:58,540 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: as males, we need to stop, we need to pause,

591
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,219
Speaker 2: and we need to think, goodness, what role do we

592
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,340
Speaker 2: play in this? The comments that we make, the examples

593
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,860
Speaker 2: that we set as older men and What small part

594
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: can that play? Because then on top of that, we

595
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:24,490
Speaker 2: get the allegation from the boys at St. Gregory's, and

596
00:29:24,530 --> 00:29:27,890
Speaker 2: here we are again. And I then say to boys, boys,

597
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:32,250
Speaker 2: we've got to hear about this. We've got to confront this,

598
00:29:32,410 --> 00:29:34,890
Speaker 2: and we've got to take ownership of this. We're not

599
00:29:34,930 --> 00:29:38,630
Speaker 2: responsible for the actions of those individuals or those alleged actions,

600
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: but we're part of that group. We're part of that team.

601
00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:46,580
Speaker 2: And so for me in my role, I try to

602
00:29:47,610 --> 00:29:51,530
Speaker 2: represent males to males and say, guys, we've got to

603
00:29:51,550 --> 00:29:54,010
Speaker 2: have this discussion. We're going to talk about this because

604
00:29:54,050 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: this stuff Those high-level things, that doesn't start there. Nothing

605
00:29:59,040 --> 00:29:59,820
Speaker 2: starts up there.

606
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: And these things happen when men, the responsibility we have,

607
00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:07,300
Speaker 1: we've got to stand up to other men that are

608
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,980
Speaker 1: committing these type of offences and make sure that it's

609
00:30:11,030 --> 00:30:16,090
Speaker 1: not dismissed or ignored. We take a stand. I also

610
00:30:16,170 --> 00:30:19,590
Speaker 1: like what your little mate said at the party. He

611
00:30:19,650 --> 00:30:21,990
Speaker 1: went down and put his arm around the girl to

612
00:30:22,930 --> 00:30:25,970
Speaker 1: get her away from the bloke. He said the bloke's

613
00:30:26,050 --> 00:30:29,950
Speaker 1: twice his size. Those type of things. I think they're

614
00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:31,290
Speaker 1: good messages.

615
00:30:31,310 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: Most men are good. Most young blokes are good young fellas.

616
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,780
Speaker 1: 100%. 100%. And we know it can have the opposite

617
00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:42,500
Speaker 1: effect by criticising or bucketing all men in the same group.

618
00:30:42,970 --> 00:30:47,790
Speaker 2: But awareness of consequence is really important because one really

619
00:30:47,830 --> 00:30:50,090
Speaker 2: good area to discuss that, well, you know, I talk

620
00:30:50,130 --> 00:30:54,390
Speaker 2: about sexual assault, what it is and what the penalty is.

621
00:30:54,530 --> 00:30:56,930
Speaker 1: I think that's another thing that the message comes out.

622
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:59,710
Speaker 1: The penalties are very high. The courts look at it

623
00:31:00,150 --> 00:31:04,110
Speaker 1: and you've sentenced accordingly if you are convicted of these crimes.

624
00:31:04,590 --> 00:31:07,270
Speaker 1: But you will do time. And when you do time,

625
00:31:07,470 --> 00:31:10,130
Speaker 1: you're not very well received in prison as a sex offender.

626
00:31:10,170 --> 00:31:13,090
Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And with older boys, that's a message.

627
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:16,690
Speaker 2: I say, you know, boys, you know, if you choose

628
00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: to cross this line, that's your choice. There are consequences.

629
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: And you have no idea, no idea of how grave

630
00:31:25,660 --> 00:31:26,780
Speaker 2: those consequences are.

631
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:27,140
Speaker 1: Yeah.

632
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: And, you know, I go into some– I go into

633
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: the toughest schools in the state. I go into the

634
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,620
Speaker 2: top private schools. I go to Catholic schools. I go to–

635
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:37,620
Speaker 2: I can do the whole lot, mate. And if you've

636
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: got a bit of a tough old audience, you know,

637
00:31:39,940 --> 00:31:42,370
Speaker 2: and they're having a bit of a go, it's like, fellas,

638
00:31:43,370 --> 00:31:44,610
Speaker 2: you might think you're a bit of a hard man.

639
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:47,010
Speaker 2: You knock a few blokes over playing under-15s footy in

640
00:31:47,050 --> 00:31:52,090
Speaker 2: the weekend. You're strut around school. You cross this line,

641
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:55,900
Speaker 2: you'll go to prison. And you will get an imprisonment

642
00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:58,580
Speaker 2: term that will have you transported to an adult prison.

643
00:31:59,090 --> 00:32:02,070
Speaker 2: When you turn 18. Yeah. And if you think this

644
00:32:02,130 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: is being melodramatic, it's not. This is called consequence.

645
00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:06,660
Speaker 1: That's the reality of it.

646
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,340
Speaker 2: Every choice has consequence.

647
00:32:10,460 --> 00:32:14,430
Speaker 1: Let's talk just briefly about date rape and on the

648
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:19,170
Speaker 1: basis that– There's a perception that most sexual assaults occur

649
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: from people that the victim doesn't know, but that's not

650
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: the case. No, that's an absolute urban myth. And what's

651
00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: your take on it? The danger, we were all educated

652
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,290
Speaker 1: about stranger danger as children, and that's a good message

653
00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:37,550
Speaker 1: to get out, but the reality of it is most

654
00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:40,210
Speaker 1: times people are sexually assaulted. It's by people that they know.

655
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:43,550
Speaker 2: Oh, look, 100%. And you know from your policing background, Gary,

656
00:32:43,570 --> 00:32:44,270
Speaker 2: that's the case, I think.

657
00:32:44,290 --> 00:32:45,070
Speaker 1: Yeah.

658
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:52,490
Speaker 2: The most at-risk age for folks to be subjected to

659
00:32:53,310 --> 00:32:55,970
Speaker 2: stranger danger is when they're at primary school, right? And

660
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:57,930
Speaker 2: that's why we get the primary school message. And I'm

661
00:32:57,970 --> 00:32:59,690
Speaker 2: not having a go at the message at all. But

662
00:32:59,710 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: if you actually look at the statistical breakdown of how many,

663
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: let's say, sexual crimes committed against primary school-aged kids are

664
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: committed against them by strangers, mate, I'd be surprised if

665
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: it's even 2%.

666
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,770
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'd be surprised. I would think it would be

667
00:33:13,930 --> 00:33:14,650
Speaker 1: at that level. Yeah.

668
00:33:15,140 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: Let's be generous. Let's say it's 5%. Okay. So 5%

669
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,410
Speaker 2: of sexual offences committed against kids at primary school who

670
00:33:23,950 --> 00:33:28,270
Speaker 2: are indoctrinated into the stranger danger message, 5% of those

671
00:33:28,330 --> 00:33:30,730
Speaker 2: offences are committed against them by the people they're being

672
00:33:30,790 --> 00:33:33,650
Speaker 2: informed about in the stranger danger program. So then we're

673
00:33:33,670 --> 00:33:38,670
Speaker 2: entitled to ask, okay, who's committing the other 95%? That's parents,

674
00:33:38,890 --> 00:33:43,100
Speaker 2: family members, extended family, adults in positions of care and control,

675
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: adults who the kids think they can trust. So, you know,

676
00:33:46,890 --> 00:33:50,740
Speaker 2: when we educate kids at primary school in stranger danger,

677
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: then those kids get a bit older and they turn

678
00:33:53,820 --> 00:33:59,500
Speaker 2: on TV, Netflix, Stan, Prime, Paramount, and 99% of depictions

679
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,020
Speaker 2: of sex offenders have them as strangers. It's no wonder

680
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: that society thinks sexual crime is committed by this shadowy

681
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: figure with a balaclava on who jumps out of a

682
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: white van. Made us exceedingly real. Now, strangers can commit

683
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:17,020
Speaker 2: sex crimes. No argument. They can, they do. You know,

684
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,140
Speaker 2: I wrote a book 25 years ago that looks into

685
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: the psychology of that particular form of sexual crime. The

686
00:34:22,739 --> 00:34:25,850
Speaker 2: age group that I present to, it is exceedingly rare

687
00:34:26,350 --> 00:34:31,030
Speaker 2: for me to get disclosures from high school students relating

688
00:34:31,150 --> 00:34:35,450
Speaker 2: to recent, you know, if we're talking about historical stuff, yeah,

689
00:34:35,469 --> 00:34:37,890
Speaker 2: it can be strange. If it's a recent event that's

690
00:34:37,910 --> 00:34:41,010
Speaker 2: happened within the last 12 months, hardly ever is the

691
00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: offender a stranger.

692
00:34:42,060 --> 00:34:42,660
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

693
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,700
Speaker 2: That's a tough pill to swallow because I think it's

694
00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:50,819
Speaker 2: easier as a society to think that sexual crime is

695
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 2: committed by people who we don't sort of know, connect with.

696
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:59,169
Speaker 2: It's these evil sort of characters that I'd never meet. They're,

697
00:34:59,190 --> 00:35:02,569
Speaker 2: you know, head to toe, covered in tattoos and all. No,

698
00:35:02,590 --> 00:35:03,469
Speaker 2: it doesn't work like that.

699
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:06,630
Speaker 1: So I think it's an important message to get. And

700
00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:12,890
Speaker 1: when we fall into past children, even adults, that quite

701
00:35:12,910 --> 00:35:15,210
Speaker 1: often the sex offender is someone you know, and then

702
00:35:15,290 --> 00:35:18,370
Speaker 1: we fall into that category of date rape and all that.

703
00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:21,969
Speaker 1: So you're vulnerable in that situation too.

704
00:35:22,010 --> 00:35:24,830
Speaker 2: Certainly, yeah. And one of the reasons when I'm talking

705
00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:27,410
Speaker 2: to students that I start by giving that sort of

706
00:35:27,450 --> 00:35:30,689
Speaker 2: gender risk profile thing is to say to them that

707
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:33,410
Speaker 2: I want you to hear this so you've got a

708
00:35:33,489 --> 00:35:35,790
Speaker 2: foundation and a platform to what we're going to go

709
00:35:35,830 --> 00:35:39,350
Speaker 2: on and talk about. You're entitled to hear this because

710
00:35:39,489 --> 00:35:41,810
Speaker 2: a lot of conditioning is exactly as you said, or

711
00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:43,810
Speaker 2: the stuff that this guy's coming in to talk about

712
00:35:43,969 --> 00:35:46,910
Speaker 2: is stuff that strangers do. No, the stuff I'm talking

713
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:51,430
Speaker 2: about is done in social environments. Now, I've never stopped.

714
00:35:51,469 --> 00:35:53,380
Speaker 2: When my son and my daughter were going through, I

715
00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:55,540
Speaker 2: never stopped my son and my daughter going to parties,

716
00:35:55,580 --> 00:35:59,259
Speaker 2: going out. They went to uni. They went to schoolies,

717
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 2: and they did the whole thing. It's not a question

718
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: of stopping kids doing it. It's like when kids are

719
00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,300
Speaker 2: very little, we don't just let them cross the road

720
00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:10,370
Speaker 2: on their own because they have no concept of, the danger.

721
00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:13,810
Speaker 2: So we go with them. We teach them, look left,

722
00:36:13,830 --> 00:36:16,930
Speaker 2: we do all that. I take that same principle that

723
00:36:16,969 --> 00:36:19,780
Speaker 2: I do. There's risk in everything that we do. Getting

724
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,860
Speaker 2: in the car, driving for me out, well, there's a

725
00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: risk attached, but how do you reduce the risk? Well,

726
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:27,259
Speaker 2: you drive responsibly. That doesn't guarantee that you're not going

727
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: to have somebody drive up your ass in the car,

728
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,020
Speaker 2: but you reduce the risk as much as you can.

729
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 2: Young people going to parties, is there a risk attached?

730
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:36,220
Speaker 1: Yeah.

731
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,259
Speaker 2: But if you know what the risk is, if you

732
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: understand it, if you're educated around it, you can reduce it.

733
00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:46,330
Speaker 1: Sexual harassment. You do a lot of training in regards

734
00:36:46,469 --> 00:36:49,090
Speaker 1: to that. You take on the sexual harassment. What are

735
00:36:49,110 --> 00:36:52,450
Speaker 1: we talking about? How would you define it? Good question.

736
00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:53,370
Speaker 1: How do we deal with it?

737
00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:57,390
Speaker 2: So to peel it back, sexual harassment is a policy

738
00:36:57,550 --> 00:37:02,810
Speaker 2: in place in every employer in Australia. It's linked, in essence,

739
00:37:02,890 --> 00:37:06,980
Speaker 2: I guess, to two pieces of legislation. So Workplace harassment

740
00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: is basically behavior in a workplace that's uninvited, unwelcomed, unreciprocated,

741
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:16,859
Speaker 2: and it leaves someone feeling intimidated, offended, or humiliated. And

742
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 2: there's one other step in that process. For that behavior

743
00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:23,779
Speaker 2: to be classified as harassment, that offense has to sort

744
00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: of impede upon a protected attribute. So it's comments that

745
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: are racist, sexist, homophobic. So then alongside that, we have bullying,

746
00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: which dropped into the workplace in policies 2014. And it's

747
00:37:36,660 --> 00:37:41,860
Speaker 2: really just a legislative filler between where harassment definition finishes

748
00:37:42,340 --> 00:37:47,180
Speaker 2: and then we're criminal. Because technically harassment is harassment because

749
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,350
Speaker 2: it impedes upon anti-discrimination legislation. So then it's like, well, okay,

750
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:54,549
Speaker 2: what do we call stuff that doesn't? What do we

751
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:57,930
Speaker 2: call behavior in a workplace where I'm yelling and screaming,

752
00:37:57,989 --> 00:38:02,630
Speaker 2: being abusive, using foul language? Well, that's what we call bullying.

753
00:38:03,070 --> 00:38:06,230
Speaker 2: Then We have this third component of sexual harassment. Sexual

754
00:38:06,250 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: harassment's generally now most workplaces displayed as a standalone policy,

755
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 2: which is fine. I'm fine with that. Technically, it comes

756
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,739
Speaker 2: under workplace harassment definition. It's uninvited, unwelcome behavior of a

757
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 2: sexual nature that intimidates, offends, humiliates. And it generally offends

758
00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:26,310
Speaker 2: on the basis of gender. So it meets all that criteria.

759
00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:31,549
Speaker 2: Sexual harassment also impedes upon sex discrimination legislation.

760
00:38:31,570 --> 00:38:31,730
Speaker 1: Right.

761
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,140
Speaker 2: So when we look at its definition, it really refers to,

762
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,410
Speaker 2: in a workplace setting, and universities and schools, of course,

763
00:38:38,430 --> 00:38:41,850
Speaker 2: still apply, but basically in a workplace setting, any behavior

764
00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:46,770
Speaker 2: of a sexual nature, verbal stuff, physical stuff, comment, yeah, anything,

765
00:38:47,590 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: that to the recipient is uninvited and unwelcomed, and that

766
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: causes some degree of offense and what have you. Interestingly

767
00:38:56,460 --> 00:39:01,820
Speaker 2: around this, mate, my first step into the corporate environment

768
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 2: came after I wrote that book, which was about 25

769
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,299
Speaker 2: years ago.

770
00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: You're talking about how dangerous men think.

771
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,460
Speaker 2: And one of the talks I did was for a

772
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 2: group called Women in Finance, the Macquarie Street Weep Monks.

773
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: It's all these big hitters from all the big banks.

774
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,890
Speaker 2: So I'm up there banging on about my book and stuff.

775
00:39:17,950 --> 00:39:21,589
Speaker 2: And there was a woman at that talk from Commonwealth Bank.

776
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:24,390
Speaker 2: She read my book. She was head of HR, contacted

777
00:39:24,410 --> 00:39:26,430
Speaker 2: me afterwards, said, look, I know this is a bit

778
00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:28,390
Speaker 2: out of sync with your book, she said, but I'd

779
00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:29,950
Speaker 2: love for you to come in and have a chat.

780
00:39:29,969 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: to you about maybe doing some programs around sexual harassment

781
00:39:32,739 --> 00:39:36,900
Speaker 2: for the bank. So they were my first corporate client, 1999.

782
00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is if you'd sat in that first

783
00:39:40,660 --> 00:39:42,819
Speaker 2: talk that I did as an employer at Commonwealth Bank,

784
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: you'd have been in Martin Place in the city. If

785
00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: you'd said to me, 1999, what's the number one most

786
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,770
Speaker 2: common form of inappropriate workplace conduct that rears its head

787
00:39:51,810 --> 00:39:52,270
Speaker 2: in Australia?

788
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:52,569
Speaker 1: Yeah.

789
00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:54,770
Speaker 2: Every study in 1999, sexual harassment.

790
00:39:55,090 --> 00:39:55,910
Speaker 1: Yeah.

791
00:39:56,050 --> 00:39:58,950
Speaker 2: If you asked me the same question today, same answer.

792
00:39:59,590 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: Right.

793
00:39:59,780 --> 00:40:03,100
Speaker 2: Still number one. Now, There's not as much of it

794
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,390
Speaker 2: now as there was, and I think that's pretty much indisputable.

795
00:40:06,489 --> 00:40:10,489
Speaker 2: The level of inappropriate behavior in the modern workplace today

796
00:40:10,510 --> 00:40:11,529
Speaker 2: is far less than.

797
00:40:11,450 --> 00:40:14,370
Speaker 1: What it used to be. Well, back in 1999, we

798
00:40:14,410 --> 00:40:15,410
Speaker 1: hardly had a word for it.

799
00:40:16,330 --> 00:40:17,410
Speaker 2: Mate, exactly.

800
00:40:17,730 --> 00:40:19,340
Speaker 1: Now everyone's aware of it.

801
00:40:19,350 --> 00:40:22,860
Speaker 2: There's a greater awareness. There's greater consequence. There's a greater

802
00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:27,700
Speaker 2: expectation as young people come through. So the pile is less,

803
00:40:27,739 --> 00:40:30,060
Speaker 2: but sitting at the top of the pile in 99

804
00:40:30,060 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: was sexually based stuff, same as today. So the way

805
00:40:33,820 --> 00:40:37,299
Speaker 2: I look at it is, as I say that, just

806
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,820
Speaker 2: one other interesting thing, sexual harassment behavior of a sexual nature,

807
00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:46,390
Speaker 2: which is upsetting, offensive, it doesn't have to be male

808
00:40:46,410 --> 00:40:50,170
Speaker 2: to female. There's no mention of gender in workplace policies,

809
00:40:50,989 --> 00:40:55,310
Speaker 2: but the most common form, Of sexual harassment, according to

810
00:40:55,370 --> 00:40:59,230
Speaker 2: all studies. It is usually, but not exclusively, it's male

811
00:40:59,330 --> 00:41:00,290
Speaker 2: to female conduct.

812
00:41:00,370 --> 00:41:00,529
Speaker 1: Yeah.

813
00:41:01,110 --> 00:41:04,950
Speaker 2: So the most common ingredient in male to female sexual harassment,

814
00:41:04,969 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: according to all research, is it is most likely to

815
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 2: be males in their 40s and 50s making unwanted, uninvited

816
00:41:13,420 --> 00:41:17,860
Speaker 2: sexual comments and advances towards female colleagues who will most

817
00:41:18,030 --> 00:41:21,589
Speaker 2: likely be under the age of 30. So if we

818
00:41:21,630 --> 00:41:24,490
Speaker 2: let that sort of sink in, That's pretty ordinary.

819
00:41:25,630 --> 00:41:26,009
Speaker 1: Very ordinary.

820
00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:28,850
Speaker 2: It's not great. And as recently as yesterday, I said,

821
00:41:29,890 --> 00:41:33,509
Speaker 2: so the human face of the most common form of

822
00:41:33,610 --> 00:41:36,050
Speaker 2: sexual harassment, which is still the most common form of

823
00:41:36,070 --> 00:41:39,110
Speaker 2: inappropriate workplace, is blokes of my age, of my vintage,

824
00:41:39,210 --> 00:41:44,589
Speaker 2: of my experience in the workplace, targeting young women for

825
00:41:44,690 --> 00:41:48,570
Speaker 2: sexual advances, sexual comments, who will most likely be about

826
00:41:48,590 --> 00:41:49,860
Speaker 2: the age of my daughter, who's 28. Yeah.

827
00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:52,230
Speaker 1: Well, it's creepy.

828
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: It's pretty dodgy. Now, the other thing here, the other

829
00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: connection I make is I'm talking to 150 Year 11

830
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:06,420
Speaker 2: girls at a girls' school after this chat here today. Yeah. 25%

831
00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: of them, according to all independent studies, between 15 and

832
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,410
Speaker 2: 21 will experience some form of sexual crime. So these

833
00:42:13,469 --> 00:42:17,050
Speaker 2: girls I talk to today, this time next year, they'll

834
00:42:17,090 --> 00:42:18,830
Speaker 2: be in their last one or two weeks of school

835
00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:20,810
Speaker 2: before they finish, do the HSC, and then they're off.

836
00:42:21,340 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 2: they're off to university, off to TAFE, into the workplace.

837
00:42:25,140 --> 00:42:27,020
Speaker 2: All of those young women, when they work into the

838
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:31,180
Speaker 2: Australian workplace, when they walk in, 25% of them have

839
00:42:31,219 --> 00:42:33,700
Speaker 2: had some type of sexual offence committed against them because

840
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,219
Speaker 2: Australia has amongst the highest statistics of sexual crime of

841
00:42:36,340 --> 00:42:39,500
Speaker 2: any surveyed country in the Western world. The number one

842
00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: most common form of inappropriate workplace behaviour that awaits them

843
00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 2: is blokes our age having a go at them sexually

844
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,500
Speaker 2: in the workplace. And the reason I bring that together

845
00:42:51,580 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: is these two things aren't siloed. It's not a coincidence

846
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:59,260
Speaker 2: that a country with a comparatively high sexual crime rate

847
00:43:00,260 --> 00:43:03,330
Speaker 2: is a country that for close to 30 years of

848
00:43:03,370 --> 00:43:06,069
Speaker 2: me doing this work, also sexually based conduct is the

849
00:43:06,110 --> 00:43:10,310
Speaker 2: most common form of inappropriate behavior in the world. It's

850
00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:12,210
Speaker 2: a cultural thing. It's a call it what you like.

851
00:43:12,250 --> 00:43:14,180
Speaker 2: It's just you can't separate the two.

852
00:43:14,190 --> 00:43:18,630
Speaker 1: It is a cultural thing. And I think it's disgraceful.

853
00:43:19,780 --> 00:43:22,700
Speaker 1: If you're a police officer, I was a police officer,

854
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,609
Speaker 1: I saw the misogynistic world in which I operated in,

855
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:29,730
Speaker 1: that they're starting to wake up to it. But yeah,

856
00:43:29,790 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: female police officers, Had a hell of a time.

857
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,580
Speaker 2: Oh, man. It's unbelievable what it used to be like.

858
00:43:35,660 --> 00:43:40,580
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'd like to say it's no longer occurring. It's

859
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,609
Speaker 1: better than it was. It's better than it was, but

860
00:43:42,620 --> 00:43:44,010
Speaker 1: it still is occurring.

861
00:43:44,050 --> 00:43:46,390
Speaker 2: The point that I make about that too, Gary, and

862
00:43:46,570 --> 00:43:50,830
Speaker 2: you're so right. I don't think anyone who has– you're

863
00:43:50,850 --> 00:43:53,469
Speaker 2: in the job for a long time. It's a lot better.

864
00:43:53,830 --> 00:43:55,410
Speaker 2: When I went through the job, they had a cap.

865
00:43:55,650 --> 00:43:57,930
Speaker 2: For every 100 that went through the academy, it was

866
00:43:57,989 --> 00:43:59,010
Speaker 2: capped at two females.

867
00:43:59,250 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

868
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,410
Speaker 2: So it's 2%. Um, so those girls, they were girls,

869
00:44:03,469 --> 00:44:05,509
Speaker 2: they were 19. I mean, they had to live in

870
00:44:05,550 --> 00:44:08,770
Speaker 2: a police academy with, with 98, 19 year old blokes.

871
00:44:08,969 --> 00:44:09,509
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

872
00:44:09,570 --> 00:44:12,370
Speaker 2: You know, then they're sent out on section. They're always

873
00:44:12,410 --> 00:44:13,890
Speaker 2: the only women on section.

874
00:44:14,050 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: Well, I, when I, I came in, into the police,

875
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: that was, I think it was the first time they

876
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: started introducing the affirmative action with the number of police women.

877
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,100
Speaker 1: I think it was a third in each academy, academy

878
00:44:26,140 --> 00:44:29,330
Speaker 1: class around that time. And really we landed in an

879
00:44:29,390 --> 00:44:32,489
Speaker 1: environment that, uh, People just did not know how to

880
00:44:32,530 --> 00:44:34,050
Speaker 1: behave or deal with.

881
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:35,589
Speaker 2: No, it's better now than it was.

882
00:44:35,690 --> 00:44:35,850
Speaker 1: Yeah.

883
00:44:36,290 --> 00:44:38,730
Speaker 2: But here's one thing I take from that also. And

884
00:44:38,770 --> 00:44:41,370
Speaker 2: I mentioned this yesterday. I said, there is no argument

885
00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:45,620
Speaker 2: that sexual harassment in the Australian workplace is less prevalent

886
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: today than it once was. But what we can't lose

887
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:52,219
Speaker 2: sight of is if a young woman, the age of

888
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: my daughter, let's say, in a workplace in Sydney today

889
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,690
Speaker 2: is subjected to that appalling type of conduct and behavior

890
00:44:57,770 --> 00:45:01,170
Speaker 2: from a bloke who's the age of a dad, The

891
00:45:01,310 --> 00:45:04,529
Speaker 2: impact that it has on that young woman is no

892
00:45:04,610 --> 00:45:09,050
Speaker 2: less today than it was happening 30 years ago simply

893
00:45:09,090 --> 00:45:10,549
Speaker 2: because it doesn't happen so often.

894
00:45:11,860 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: How would you advise or what are the appropriate practices?

895
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:19,500
Speaker 1: Because I think back during my career that if I

896
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: saw that type of thing going on, I'd get the

897
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,050
Speaker 1: bloke and pull his nose and pull him in the line.

898
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:27,950
Speaker 1: It's not on. Whether that was the best way of

899
00:45:27,969 --> 00:45:29,989
Speaker 1: dealing with it, I don't know, but that's the way

900
00:45:30,050 --> 00:45:32,549
Speaker 1: I dealt with it. What structures are in place now

901
00:45:32,630 --> 00:45:34,230
Speaker 1: for sexual? Yeah, look, it's a very good question.

902
00:45:34,430 --> 00:45:37,860
Speaker 2: And one of the things that workplaces are really focused

903
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,020
Speaker 2: on now, there's this term that's sort of dropped into

904
00:45:40,060 --> 00:45:42,780
Speaker 2: the workplace lexicon over the last few years of positive duty,

905
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: positive duty, which is sort of like saying, let's not

906
00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:50,790
Speaker 2: just focus on how we respond to an appropriate workplace conduct.

907
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:54,510
Speaker 2: Let's also focus on what reasonable steps are we taking

908
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:58,029
Speaker 2: to reduce it from happening in the first place. And

909
00:45:58,070 --> 00:46:01,270
Speaker 2: that has actually become a legal test. So if hypothetically

910
00:46:01,350 --> 00:46:04,090
Speaker 2: something happened in a place of employment in Australia today,

911
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:07,390
Speaker 2: it ended up going outside of the workplace, Fair Work

912
00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:09,490
Speaker 2: Commission come and they step in. One of the questions

913
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: they're going to ask is what has this employer, this

914
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:17,060
Speaker 2: place of employment done to reasonably take steps to reduce

915
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: this stuff from happening? So there's that application at the

916
00:46:19,940 --> 00:46:21,660
Speaker 2: top and all the way down. Now, when we start

917
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 2: talking about staff and things like that, one area, it's

918
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: not the only part, but one area that I think

919
00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:30,060
Speaker 2: we can get some work done is A lot of

920
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: people may not know the definition of things like harassment

921
00:46:34,060 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: or bullying or even sexual harassment, even the thing we

922
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,700
Speaker 2: call the workplace. A lot of people think, oh, it's

923
00:46:38,739 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 2: just the four walls on which you work.

924
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: Well, quite often in big organisations, it's part of the

925
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: mandatory training that you get a PowerPoint presentation or an

926
00:46:46,910 --> 00:46:49,130
Speaker 1: online training. It doesn't really sink in.

927
00:46:49,290 --> 00:46:51,650
Speaker 2: And, mate, I tell you what, if they're doing that

928
00:46:51,710 --> 00:46:53,790
Speaker 2: to try and protect themselves for something down the track, well,

929
00:46:53,989 --> 00:46:58,410
Speaker 2: they're kidding themselves. There is no online training on workplace

930
00:46:58,430 --> 00:47:01,259
Speaker 2: harassment that would stand up. to any scrutiny in a

931
00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: courtroom environment. It just doesn't happen. And I can say that, mate,

932
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: because I used to put those together for corporations. I

933
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,380
Speaker 2: used to go and do it. Now the legal basis

934
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,540
Speaker 2: is now that's all you've done, you haven't done enough.

935
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,739
Speaker 2: It has to be some form of communicated, you know,

936
00:47:16,390 --> 00:47:20,089
Speaker 2: presentation where there's a list of, you know, what has

937
00:47:20,130 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: gone through, who attended and all the rest of it. So, yeah, it's–

938
00:47:25,350 --> 00:47:29,350
Speaker 2: I think there's also, for mine– You've got to start

939
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 2: by informing people of these terms and what they mean

940
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: and then empowering them to call it out if it

941
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:36,900
Speaker 2: happens to them or whether they see it. Because this

942
00:47:36,940 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 2: whole positive duty thing is saying we want to hear

943
00:47:39,780 --> 00:47:42,410
Speaker 2: about this stuff at the lowest possible level. We don't

944
00:47:42,469 --> 00:47:43,830
Speaker 2: want to hear about it when it's a 9 out

945
00:47:43,870 --> 00:47:46,670
Speaker 2: of 10 because every 9 out of 10 starts out

946
00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:47,780
Speaker 2: as a 1.

947
00:47:47,770 --> 00:47:50,049
Speaker 1: You make a valid point there because quite often that's

948
00:47:50,110 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: when it could be stopped. At the early stages.

949
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: Oh, 100%.

950
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: Just, hey, this is not appropriate. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

951
00:47:55,540 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: Now, that doesn't mean the person has to do that themselves,

952
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: but it means that they then can say, well, okay,

953
00:48:01,380 --> 00:48:03,660
Speaker 2: the way that I'm feeling about what's been said or done,

954
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,620
Speaker 2: I'm not comfortable with that. That's in line with what

955
00:48:06,660 --> 00:48:09,090
Speaker 2: I heard in that training or whatever it was. I'm

956
00:48:09,110 --> 00:48:11,989
Speaker 2: going to have a chat to my boss. Yeah. So

957
00:48:12,050 --> 00:48:13,790
Speaker 2: I come to you. You're my manager now. As a manager,

958
00:48:13,810 --> 00:48:16,730
Speaker 2: you have a moral, ethical, legal obligation under corporate law

959
00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:19,170
Speaker 2: to take action to address that. And we want to

960
00:48:19,210 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: hear about this stuff as early as we can. What's

961
00:48:21,660 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: interesting too, mate, is we do a bit of a

962
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: deep dive on this, is even things like the workplace,

963
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,700
Speaker 2: quite a high percentage of inappropriate workplace conduct, sexual harassment

964
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 2: and other things, happen in an environment that people don't

965
00:48:35,739 --> 00:48:38,310
Speaker 2: actually even classify as the workplace. It's when they're socializing.

966
00:48:38,450 --> 00:48:41,630
Speaker 2: It's after hours. So the definition of the workplace extends

967
00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:43,310
Speaker 2: to anywhere you are with those who work.

968
00:48:43,390 --> 00:48:44,550
Speaker 1: That's an important message.

969
00:48:44,590 --> 00:48:48,029
Speaker 2: It's a really important message. Yeah. All the big organizations

970
00:48:48,110 --> 00:48:50,430
Speaker 2: I work in still to this day get a spike

971
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:53,870
Speaker 2: of complaints of inappropriate workplace conduct early November, mid-December.

972
00:48:54,130 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: Why?

973
00:48:54,340 --> 00:48:58,180
Speaker 2: It's Christmas parties. You and I have been around the

974
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: block a few times. There's quite a few corporations that

975
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 2: use me in different roles. One of the roles is

976
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,270
Speaker 2: to come in when someone has been alleged of inappropriate conduct.

977
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:10,009
Speaker 2: It's been investigated and substantiated. They're on a first and

978
00:49:10,070 --> 00:49:13,940
Speaker 2: final warning. And they want to bring someone like me in,

979
00:49:14,010 --> 00:49:16,029
Speaker 2: because I work for that company, to sit down and

980
00:49:16,090 --> 00:49:18,109
Speaker 2: really read the riot act a bit to them. And

981
00:49:18,130 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: I can tell you. you what's 27 years every one

982
00:49:22,100 --> 00:49:24,779
Speaker 2: of those I've done pretty much is blokes about our

983
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: age their behaviour is always sexually based behaviour usually alcohol

984
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 2: fuelled and the targets are usually women in their 20s

985
00:49:32,450 --> 00:49:36,170
Speaker 2: and I still to this day think why are we

986
00:49:36,190 --> 00:49:38,050
Speaker 2: still having to have this discussion.

987
00:49:37,890 --> 00:49:42,740
Speaker 1: You know I say it like it's almost a cultural

988
00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: thing where people condone it or just– Yeah.

989
00:49:45,660 --> 00:49:47,700
Speaker 2: In some places, it's more condoned than others. Of course,

990
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,779
Speaker 2: some places are better at dealing with it than others.

991
00:49:50,020 --> 00:49:53,509
Speaker 1: Sadly, the people that you're describing as the perpetrators tend

992
00:49:53,530 --> 00:49:56,410
Speaker 1: to be the people that are in power in the organizations.

993
00:49:56,430 --> 00:49:58,010
Speaker 2: They can be. They can be, yeah.

994
00:49:58,050 --> 00:50:01,310
Speaker 1: So it's self-serving that they don't blow it up.

995
00:50:01,410 --> 00:50:04,209
Speaker 2: And I think generally, you know, you've got kids, so

996
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 2: have I. And I think generally the younger folks coming

997
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,860
Speaker 2: through are the ones that are Less tolerant, more demanding of–

998
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:15,689
Speaker 2: it's like my daughter's age group. Here's an example. She's

999
00:50:15,730 --> 00:50:16,750
Speaker 2: a corporate lawyer.

1000
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:17,089
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1001
00:50:17,270 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 2: I mean, law as an industry had a pretty ordinary

1002
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,980
Speaker 2: reputation to how they treated women for a long, long time.

1003
00:50:25,510 --> 00:50:28,370
Speaker 2: Things have changed. They're not perfect, but it's a whole

1004
00:50:28,410 --> 00:50:31,450
Speaker 2: lot better. So the world that the young women like

1005
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:34,810
Speaker 2: my daughter are going into, the workplace, is a better

1006
00:50:34,870 --> 00:50:37,610
Speaker 2: place now than it was, say, for my wife's generation.

1007
00:50:37,710 --> 00:50:37,870
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1008
00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:40,089
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean we take our eye off the ball.

1009
00:50:40,290 --> 00:50:42,250
Speaker 2: We can still keep improving that, you know.

1010
00:50:42,469 --> 00:50:46,270
Speaker 1: Well, I think in my humble opinion, if you take

1011
00:50:46,650 --> 00:50:48,930
Speaker 1: your eye off the ball, we just slip back into

1012
00:50:48,989 --> 00:50:53,549
Speaker 1: old practices. Yeah. And it will be occurring again. So

1013
00:50:53,570 --> 00:50:55,990
Speaker 1: we've got to be proactive about it. It's so true.

1014
00:50:56,010 --> 00:50:59,500
Speaker 2: That's such a valid comment. Some years ago, a lot

1015
00:50:59,540 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: of the talks I did in the corporate environment was

1016
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,620
Speaker 2: based around sexual harassment. And then a lot of those folks,

1017
00:51:05,820 --> 00:51:08,339
Speaker 2: and it was just indicative of the time, a lot

1018
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,870
Speaker 2: of the decision makers around that came to me and said, look,

1019
00:51:11,370 --> 00:51:13,850
Speaker 2: we've sort of done this whole sexual harassment thing to

1020
00:51:13,890 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: death a bit. Everyone's aware of it. So can we

1021
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:20,100
Speaker 2: start to change the content of your presentations a little

1022
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:20,940
Speaker 2: bit more around bullying?

1023
00:51:20,980 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.

1024
00:51:21,420 --> 00:51:25,330
Speaker 2: I'll do whatever. They're the client. So we went from

1025
00:51:25,410 --> 00:51:27,629
Speaker 2: talking about it quite a lot to suddenly pulling back.

1026
00:51:27,690 --> 00:51:30,790
Speaker 2: And here we are today. It's still the most common.

1027
00:51:31,110 --> 00:51:34,270
Speaker 2: So yeah, I do talk about it in my talks.

1028
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,339
Speaker 2: I unapologetically align it with the work that I do

1029
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,859
Speaker 2: in schools and things like that. And I say, to

1030
00:51:40,890 --> 00:51:42,250
Speaker 2: those in the room. We've got to have a zero

1031
00:51:42,310 --> 00:51:43,210
Speaker 2: tolerance for this.

1032
00:51:43,450 --> 00:51:46,709
Speaker 1: I think so because I saw how hard policing was

1033
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:49,370
Speaker 1: and that's from a male's point of view and I

1034
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:53,259
Speaker 1: saw the police women coming through and we had a

1035
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:57,899
Speaker 1: reunion from our original class a year or so ago

1036
00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:59,700
Speaker 1: and I was speaking to some of the girls that

1037
00:51:59,739 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: we went through the class with and we were talking

1038
00:52:01,780 --> 00:52:05,129
Speaker 1: about the podcast. but saying you had no idea what

1039
00:52:05,180 --> 00:52:08,020
Speaker 1: we were confronted with when we graduated and went out

1040
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:11,739
Speaker 1: into the, because you're spread out into all different stations. Yes, yes.

1041
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:13,710
Speaker 1: And some of the stories and some of the things

1042
00:52:13,770 --> 00:52:16,490
Speaker 1: we had to put up with, and these are, Hard, tough,

1043
00:52:16,590 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: capable ladies. They spent over three decades in the police. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1044
00:52:21,140 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: And they're still saying you'd be horrified by what we

1045
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:23,899
Speaker 1: had to.

1046
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,690
Speaker 2: Put up with. And no avenue for them to raise it.

1047
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:28,859
Speaker 2: They put their hand up to raise that. Well, they're gone.

1048
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:29,959
Speaker 2: They're out the door.

1049
00:52:30,260 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: Exactly. So I'm glad you're getting that message.

1050
00:52:33,820 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 2: It's better now. And you know what, mate? As ex-coppers,

1051
00:52:35,820 --> 00:52:38,540
Speaker 2: I live over the eastern suburbs there, and I still

1052
00:52:38,580 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: to this day, if I'm out and about and I

1053
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,610
Speaker 2: see an I-car go past and there's two young men

1054
00:52:43,950 --> 00:52:45,830
Speaker 2: A policewoman, and it brings a smile to my face.

1055
00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:46,370
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

1056
00:52:46,489 --> 00:52:48,410
Speaker 2: It's because that would never happen in my day. You know,

1057
00:52:48,430 --> 00:52:51,170
Speaker 2: New Zealand police, when I was policing in the 80s

1058
00:52:51,330 --> 00:52:55,149
Speaker 2: through the 90s, probably the highest ranked officer I ever

1059
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:57,870
Speaker 2: met who was female was probably a senior sergeant. Yeah, yeah.

1060
00:52:57,950 --> 00:53:00,009
Speaker 2: That would have been about it because two out of

1061
00:53:00,070 --> 00:53:02,750
Speaker 2: every hundred, most of them left.

1062
00:53:04,110 --> 00:53:07,089
Speaker 1: It's a hard job, as I said. It's tough for blokes. Yeah,

1063
00:53:07,150 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: when there's that harassment or discrimination. But I certainly thought

1064
00:53:12,380 --> 00:53:17,219
Speaker 1: within policing, especially like from criminal investigation side of things,

1065
00:53:17,739 --> 00:53:20,860
Speaker 1: I always look for having a balanced team because I

1066
00:53:21,060 --> 00:53:23,020
Speaker 1: think they can bring in different perspectives.

1067
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 2: Oh, totally.

1068
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,180
Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%. Different energy into the team. But they should

1069
00:53:28,219 --> 00:53:32,060
Speaker 1: be protected. So I think, yeah, sexual harassment is something that–

1070
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: needs to be out there and talked about.

1071
00:53:33,460 --> 00:53:36,970
Speaker 2: Yeah, and, you know, most corporations, you know, probably 30,

1072
00:53:36,969 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 2: 35 groups that I work with get me in every

1073
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,029
Speaker 2: couple of years, and they're all right behind this. And,

1074
00:53:41,050 --> 00:53:44,710
Speaker 2: you know, the days of companies sort of sweeping their

1075
00:53:44,730 --> 00:53:46,790
Speaker 2: son on the carpet, that's probably a rarity. It's an

1076
00:53:46,830 --> 00:53:47,910
Speaker 2: exception now where.

1077
00:53:48,050 --> 00:53:49,089
Speaker 1: It once was the rule.

1078
00:53:49,110 --> 00:53:51,029
Speaker 2: It can still happen, but not to the same degree.

1079
00:53:51,050 --> 00:53:53,380
Speaker 1: Everywhere, you can't just, oh, it was just a Christmas party.

1080
00:53:53,410 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: We'll behave next year, and that's gone by the wayside.

1081
00:53:56,700 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 2: And we talk about consequence, don't we? And sadly, it's probably–

1082
00:54:02,190 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: due to the fact that the consequence of not dealing

1083
00:54:06,260 --> 00:54:11,020
Speaker 2: with stuff fiscally is more damaging than if you deal

1084
00:54:11,060 --> 00:54:11,219
Speaker 2: with it.

1085
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we are trying to get better, I think,

1086
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 1: and I'm saying that in a general sense, but there's

1087
00:54:16,820 --> 00:54:21,910
Speaker 1: always room for improvement. I hope the conversations that we've had,

1088
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:27,140
Speaker 1: especially about young adults, resonate with whether it's parents or

1089
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 1: young adults themselves. I think it's some important messaging. And

1090
00:54:32,380 --> 00:54:36,910
Speaker 1: I had your book, How Dangerous Men Think and How

1091
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:39,950
Speaker 1: to Stay Safe for Life. It's an old book, but

1092
00:54:39,989 --> 00:54:42,730
Speaker 1: there's still a lot in there that resonate.

1093
00:54:42,830 --> 00:54:45,149
Speaker 2: And it's now, it's so old, mate, that it's no,

1094
00:54:45,710 --> 00:54:48,009
Speaker 2: I think you get about five or six rotations of

1095
00:54:48,170 --> 00:54:52,790
Speaker 2: print in a book. And that was published around 2001,

1096
00:54:52,790 --> 00:54:55,190
Speaker 2: I think, but it's accessible online. It's on Amazon. You

1097
00:54:55,230 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: can download it as an e-book for, I think, $ 10, $ 11.

1098
00:54:58,510 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: I found it as an e-book and an interesting read.

1099
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:03,060
Speaker 1: Lots of things to learn from there.

1100
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:04,859
Speaker 2: I sharpened up a little bit a few years ago

1101
00:55:04,900 --> 00:55:07,700
Speaker 2: when it transitioned from being sort of in print across

1102
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 2: to an e-book, if you like. I went through it

1103
00:55:12,820 --> 00:55:14,969
Speaker 2: to say, well, okay, what changed? And I did make some,

1104
00:55:14,989 --> 00:55:17,350
Speaker 2: but what was interesting is, you know, we've said this before,

1105
00:55:17,710 --> 00:55:20,350
Speaker 2: the stuff that we're talking about, that the guts of

1106
00:55:20,410 --> 00:55:22,770
Speaker 2: it hasn't changed all that much. Now, look, of course,

1107
00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 2: now we could include in all of that the online stuff,

1108
00:55:25,739 --> 00:55:27,980
Speaker 2: and there's a whole book just in that. But as

1109
00:55:28,060 --> 00:55:29,660
Speaker 2: I went through all of that, I thought, well, you know,

1110
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 2: there's probably not a lot that needs changing here. The

1111
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 2: laws are pretty much the same, a few tweaks. So

1112
00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 2: it seems to be the book is as well received

1113
00:55:37,140 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 2: today as it was when it first came out many

1114
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,180
Speaker 2: years ago. And I think it was one of those

1115
00:55:42,380 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 2: times where it was the first book that put a

1116
00:55:46,260 --> 00:55:51,510
Speaker 2: lot of that profiling and psychology behind crime. It put

1117
00:55:51,550 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 2: it into sort of a package that people could.

1118
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: What I liked about it, Brent, was the fact that

1119
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that you were saying or said

1120
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,339
Speaker 1: in the book, I understood and knew it, but didn't

1121
00:56:04,380 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: have the research in support of it. It was my instinct,

1122
00:56:07,540 --> 00:56:10,660
Speaker 1: my experiences. Yeah, that makes sense. But you brought in

1123
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,930
Speaker 1: a lot of the research that sort of backs up.

1124
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that gives, like you said before, Gary, that

1125
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 2: gives some depth to, it's not just an opinion.

1126
00:56:18,540 --> 00:56:18,660
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1127
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,569
Speaker 2: I'm saying this because of this, this, and this. And

1128
00:56:21,590 --> 00:56:23,990
Speaker 2: you may have a different view, and that's totally fine.

1129
00:56:24,650 --> 00:56:26,790
Speaker 2: And if your different view can be backed up with

1130
00:56:26,850 --> 00:56:29,650
Speaker 2: more research, well, then you stick to it. But I'm

1131
00:56:29,930 --> 00:56:32,620
Speaker 2: comfortable telling you this because I can back it.

1132
00:56:32,620 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: Up with you. Well, I reckon the fact that you've

1133
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,740
Speaker 1: been talking about this for so long in the schools

1134
00:56:37,860 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: and for over 30 years says something about the messaging

1135
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:45,169
Speaker 1: you're delivering. So I want to thank you for coming

1136
00:56:45,230 --> 00:56:47,810
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Thanks for your time as a cop.

1137
00:56:47,850 --> 00:56:50,140
Speaker 1: I know that has its ups and downs, the highs

1138
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:54,219
Speaker 1: and lows in policing. But more importantly, the messaging you're

1139
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: getting across. I think it's important because, you know, young people,

1140
00:56:57,500 --> 00:56:59,739
Speaker 1: life's hard enough. And if we can give them a

1141
00:56:59,780 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: head start or point them in the right direction, give

1142
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: them sound advice, I think you're doing some good stuff.

1143
00:57:05,219 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: So I hope you keep up the energy and keep

1144
00:57:07,620 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: doing it. Thanks, mate.

1145
00:57:08,460 --> 00:57:10,259
Speaker 2: It's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you. And,

1146
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,660
Speaker 2: you know, folks listening in can take something out of

1147
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 2: this and, well, then that's all worthwhile.

1148
00:57:15,150 --> 00:57:16,010
Speaker 1: Excellent. Cheers, sir.

1149
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:18,930
Speaker 2: Thank you.