WEBVTT - Why Elon Musk doesn’t want NASA to go to the moon 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:00.920 Hi. 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:03.519 This is part two of our interview with Wall Street 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:07.240 Journal reporter Emily Gliza. If you haven't already stopped by 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.440 listening to Poplam Elon Musk's plan to take O Vanessa. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.480 There's this program at NASA that is known as Artemis, 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.680 and it's a long range plan to explore the Moon 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.200 and eventually Mars. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:25.799 We are going to the Moon, to deep space and 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:26.520 to Mars. 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.840 So NASA has had Mars and its long term plans, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.120 but currently it first wants to carry out a return 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.360 to the Moon's surface, and it wants to establish a 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.280 sustained human presence on the Moon with habitats and rovers. 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.480 Boosters ignition and left off for Bartamos. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.680 Won we rise together back to the Moon and Yah. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.720 Elon Musk's ideal is skip over all those things about 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.400 the Moon and just start getting a Mars. And our 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.840 reporting shows that at some parts of the US government 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.360 he is getting the wheels training for his plans to 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:05.000 move forward. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:15.680 From Schwartz Media, I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.880 As Wall Street Journal reporter Emily Glazer discovered Elon Musk 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.119 is pressing NASA to abandon its planned journeys to the Moon, 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.880 projects that have been decades in the making, with billions 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.120 already spent and contracts already signed. But despite backlash from 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.920 NASA insiders and politicians on both sides of Congress who 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.640 view his plans as costly, disruptive, and politically toxic, Musk 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:44.959 remains resolute today. Emily Glazer on whether the SpaceX CEO 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:53.560 can really upend NASA's return to the Moon. It's Friday, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:02:03.240 April eleven. So Emily, I know you've been speaking to 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.680 people close to Musk, but you've also been talking to 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.480 a lot of people within NASA, and I just wonder 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.560 if you can tell me a bit more about what 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:16.040 Elo Musk's focus on Mars means for NASA's current plans 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.799 to go back to the Moon. How has that all shifted. 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:24.000 So there were officials from Trump's Office of Management and Budget, 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.280 so this is like a division within the White House 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.840 that controls federal spending. They've told people that there are 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:33.960 discussions underway to move US government dollars toward Mars initiatives 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.600 and away for NASA programs focused on the Moon and 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.000 science mission. So that goes back to this whole idea 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.119 of like how much is this going to cost, and 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.520 even if you move like all these other programs and 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.880 shift priorities, you know it would be quite an undertaking. 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.920 So NASA has been working on the Artemis program and 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.800 its predecessors for many, many, many years, and even to 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.280 the point where the cost for the government's programming on 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.480 all this roughly thirteen years. They've projected it to be 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.840 ninety three billion dollars. And that's from the government's fiscal 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.560 year of twenty twelve through the fiscal year of twenty 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:14.240 twenty five, and that's all around Artemis spending ninety three billion. 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:19.040 So this is a very expensive, very costly program. And 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.200 Elon Musk has not been shy. In fact, he tweeted 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.760 on x in January he said the Moon program is 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.080 a distraction, and days earlier he criticized Artemis and said 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.360 something entirely new is needed. So if they were to 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.960 kill those programs or dramatically remake the Moon programs, that 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.360 would unravel so many years of development work. Though, we've 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.520 also talked to people that say some of the hardware 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.200 for Artemis it's just too expensive, it's too slow to produce, 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.200 and it's behind schedule. So there are people that are 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.320 definitely in the camp of like, don't cancel this. There's 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.720 so much time and energy and money that went into it, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.760 and then there are other people saying this is just 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:04.000 not working and we got to rip it up. And 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.680 sometimes you need to bring in an outsider to really 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.680 throw things up in the air. And perhaps, you know, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.200 if Elon Musk is that person and Donald Trump can 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.880 kind of like blame him for the people that get upset, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.080 then perhaps there could be benefits to that. 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.600 And just to take a slat step back, can you 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.600 just tell me what the goal of atomis is. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:28.960 So NASA launched Artemis one and that powered the Orion 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.480 space capsule toward the Moon in twenty twenty two, and 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.880 that was an uncrewed test flight that debuted Boeing's Space 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.680 Launch System SLS rocket. SOLS rocket is like a really 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.760 big deal in the space community, and NASA plans to 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.919 use SLS to send astronauts to orbit the Moon on 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.880 Orion in twenty twenty seven, so two years from now, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.080 and from there a SpaceX lander would shuttle them to 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.360 the surface of the Moon a year later from that, 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.160 NASA aims to start using something called Gateway and a 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.360 planned space station that would orbit the Moon so that 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.280 future crews would fly the Gateway and then from there 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.520 they would board moonlanders to get to the surface of 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.080 the Moon. SpaceX, Boeing and others have many billions and 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.000 contracts to build rockets and ships and lunar landing vehicles 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.440 and other technologies for the program, so there's a lot 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.839 that's gone into this and SpaceX and other companies, including 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.200 Blue Origin, which is Jeff Bezos's space company. There are 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.200 many that are tied to different parts of this massive program. 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.720 But now MUSK wants to move up plans to go 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.279 to Mars, and their goal is to launch an uncrewed 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:41.359 mission to Mars next year, with crude missions as early 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:42.520 as twenty twenty nine. 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:48.159 So Bezos would potentially stend to lose contracts if NASA 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:49.599 switches SKIS to MOSS. 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.680 Well, it's interesting you say that, because if SpaceX gives 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.040 up its roughly four billion in Moon focused contracts tied 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.719 to Artemis, any changes to Artemis could affect Blue Origin. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.400 It has a contract under Artemis to develop a lander 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.600 for a future Moon mission, so it's unclear if it 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:14.120 could benefit Blue Origin. Because if SpaceX is giving up something, 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.080 then if those contracts still exist, someone would take them, 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.560 and right now Blue Origin is the other company that 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:25.080 has an active contract with this particular type of work. 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:28.640 So it isn't totally clear to us if Blue Origin 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.200 would be a winner or a loser, but I think 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.080 there's an opportunity for it as well. 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.479 And how unusual is it for an individual, someone like 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.760 Elon musk in this case, to have this level of 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:45.960 influence over a government agency when at the same time 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.840 they also have a very clear financial and personal interest 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:51.880 in the outcome. 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:57.200 Well, there wasn't a Doge before President Trump, so let's 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:03.239 start there. It's highly unusual. I mean, I don't think 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.719 people have found in martyrn u ofs history something like 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.479 this out in the open. That's the key thing here, 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:11.720 Like we don't know how much would be going on 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:16.520 behind closed doors for a business person with financial interest 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.200 to have such influence over agencies that regulate their businesses. 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:22.720 But this is unprecedented. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.080 After the break, how Congress is trying to stop Elon musk. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.200 Hi, I'm Daniel James seven Am tells stories that need 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.920 to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and independence, 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.280 and now we're increasing our coverage every Saturday until the 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.120 election will bring you an extra episode to break down 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.960 the biggest political moments of the week. If you enjoy 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.160 seven am, the best way you can support us is 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:56.960 by making a contribution at seven am podcast dot com 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:01.200 dotu slash support. Thanks for listening and supporting our work. 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.480 So Committee on Space and Aeronaux will come to order. 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.160 Welcome to today's hearing entitled step by Step the Artemis Program 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:13.239 and NASA's path. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:18.440 How much I suppose freedom does Moscow Isaacson have to 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.360 make changes at NASA? To what extent would they need 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.160 the approval or the corporation of the federal government or 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:27.080 other agencies. 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.720 I think this goes back to the US lawmakers. So 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.400 Artemis has really powerful supporters in Congress. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.640 In two thousand and five, Congress directed NASA to develop 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.679 a sustained human presence on the Moon as a stepping 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:47.040 stone to future exploration of Mars and other destinations, and. 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.080 A bipurtisan group of senators. So both the Democrats and 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:55.080 Republicans recently introduced legislation that requires NASA and its leaders 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.800 to continue supporting the existing plans and hardware for Artemis, 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.439 including this base launch system or SLS, rocket. 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.560 Given the time and resource intensive nature of any space mission, 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:12.000 successfully carrying out a crude space exploration program requires that 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.520 the government maintained continuity of purpose over the course of 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:20.880 several years. Changing direction isn't free and it is incredibly 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.800 taxing on the United States industrial base. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.720 So exactly to your point, they're going to have a 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.720 hard time pushing through what they want because there are 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.560 different checks and balances in the US government. So it's 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.760 not like, Oh, Elon wants something, Jared is his guy 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.920 in NASA, Therefore it's just going to happen. But again, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:44.640 it's quite unusual to have a private citizen also as 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.480 a top advisor to the president of the United States, 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.280 and there's a lot more power and influence in that. 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.520 So I would say, even though there's bipartisan lawmakers that 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:59.680 are supporters of Artemis and don't want it to be disrupted, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.040 we haven't really seen ever in US modern US history 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.640 the relationship that Elon Musk has with Donald Trump as 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.840 a business leader with a president of the United States, 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.840 at least out in the open like this, And. 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.040 What about through the Department of Government efficiency, can Musk 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.559 exert much power through there to make changes at NASA. 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.240 Oh yeah, and it's already happening. I want to go 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:27.360 back to early February. I was hearing from people about 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.800 how nervous, you know, folks that NASA. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.280 Were about Doge kind of landing. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.240 At the building, you know, each agency, it's like, Doge arrives, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:38.160 their people are nervous. 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:39.640 There's a mystery around it. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.040 What are they doing, what kind of layouts are going 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.200 to happen, how will strategies change. So several weeks ago, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:51.000 NASA's top executives, top brass gathered on the ninth floor 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.160 of their headquarters in Washington, d C. And there were 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.840 DOVE staffers and part of the point of this meeting 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.400 was that DOGE had arrived, and they were kind of 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:03.400 like acknowledging that this was happening. DOGE would be analyzing 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:08.359 NASA's work and started off on a really awkward note. 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.600 People are around the conference room sharing their names and titles, 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.840 and one person who others knew to be a JOJ 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:21.360 staffer described themselves as a staffer at the Treasury Department 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.240 instead of part of DOGE. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.240 And so it was just like, what's going on. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.480 This is the elephant in the room, and they're not 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:32.760 being totally honest, and so even before the meeting, we 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.360 knew that some NASA officials had been concerned about how 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.520 transparent dog staffers would be about what they were doing 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.199 at the agency, and I think that meeting did not 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.600 help to assuage fears. NASA has had layoffs, and so 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.800 some of that work has already started to unfold. I 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.680 do want to say that NASA spokeswoman said that they're 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.720 committed to optimizing their workforce and resources in alignment with DOGE, 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.680 and that they ensure tax payer do off are directed 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:05.080 towards the highest impact projects while maintaining NASA's essential functions. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.280 That was a statement for NASA. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.880 If we consider for a moment the possible end result 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:16.400 of Musks Mars plans. As global warming accelerates, there's more 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.280 natural disasters. If we were to see a small number 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.200 of people who were able to live on Mars, that 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.080 would presumably be something that would be under the control 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.880 of Elon Musk. So are we entering this kind of 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.000 like thought experiment where the richest people in the world 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.120 can decide who gets to leave when things get bad? 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.679 Here you're making me think of those like compounds in 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:46.920 New Zealand that really wealthy people have. Look first, I 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.280 will say, if this happens, it would take a really, 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.359 really really long time for there to be the infrastructure 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.840 on Mars to even have people live there safely. But 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.640 engineers at SpaceX have it time is it worked on 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.480 unresolved questions about how humans might live off the land 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:09.040 on Mars, like turning materials on the planet into usable resources. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.360 You know. Technical leaders include an employee. 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.280 Whose job it is to focus on landing a future 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.960 starship spacecraft on the Martian surface. We have some reporting 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.960 about how even employees at Tesla we're working on a 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:28.120 special like pressurized vehicle that could work on the surface 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:28.680 of Mars. 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.800 So there are all these things that would have to happen. 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.760 I think right now they're talking about planting a flag 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.120 on Mars, which is very different than people living there. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.880 But you know, I guess once you open the door 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.559 to something to your point, a lot of other doors 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:51.040 could open as well. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:52.760 Emily, thank you so much for your time. 0:13:53.120 --> 0:14:00.000 Thank you. 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.640 Also in the news today, the Shadow Minister for Indigenous 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.840 Australians and Government Efficiency to center nampujimper Price has cential 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:15.200 audit expenditure across the Indigenous Affairs portfolio looking for waste. 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.440 Senator Price signaled the possible cuts while saying she'll also 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.440 look to reset the approach to closing the gap, citing 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.160 a lack of progress. And the environmental impact of dogs 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:29.160 is far greater, more insidious, and more concerning than generally recognized, 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.760 according to a new Australian review of scientific research published 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.360 in the journal Pacific Conservation Biology. While the impact of 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.520 CAATs on the environment is well documented, the paper says 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:44.119 dogs cause extensive and multifarious impacts, ranging from polluting waterways, 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.680 disturbing wildlife, and contributing to carbon emissions. The review's lead author, 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.040 Professor Bill Bateman of Curtain University, said dogs get a 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.040 free pass because they're so important to us. I'm Ruby 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.280 Jones and my co host Daniel James will be back 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.440 tomorrow with a special Saturday edition of seven Am. Thanks 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:00.960 for listening.