Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. When
Speaker 1: the Taliban retook Afghanistan in August twenty twenty one, the
Speaker 1: country's embassy in Canberra stayed open. It's an embassy in
Speaker 1: exile staffed by diplomats from the former administration and advocating
Speaker 1: on behalf of Afghans here in Australia. Until now, there
Speaker 1: have been seventeen embassies of it's kind around the world
Speaker 1: in countries that don't formally recognize the Taliban, but recently
Speaker 1: Germany decided to expel its embassy's exiled staff and instead
Speaker 1: invite representatives of the Taliban regime. Today Press Gallery journalist
Speaker 1: Karen Middleton on diplomacy in exile and life under the
Speaker 1: Taliban for the people of Afghanistan. It's Wednesday, October fifteenth,
Speaker 1: So Karen, in Canberra, there is an office, an embassy
Speaker 1: for Afghanistan, but it does not answer to the Taliban.
Speaker 2: So what is it and who works there? Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a bit confusing for people.
Speaker 3: I think who hear that there is an embassy for
Speaker 3: Afghanistan and assume that it's a Taliban embassy.
Speaker 2: But you're right, this is an unusual situation.
Speaker 3: It's staffed by diplomats who worked for the previous administration
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan before the Taliban took over in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3: The ambassador, Wachidula Wassi and a skeleton staff are still
Speaker 3: operating out.
Speaker 2: Of the embassy. They're doing basically consilar work.
Speaker 3: They're trying to support Afghans in Australia who are trying
Speaker 3: to keep a connection with Afghanistan with family there, and
Speaker 3: they had been still issuing passports and the like. So
Speaker 3: it's an unusual arrangement. It's an embassy in exile, and
Speaker 3: it's one of a number of them around the world
Speaker 3: that have continued to operate for the last four years.
Speaker 1: So how sustainable is that current? Can these embassies stay
Speaker 1: open all over the world if they don't represent the
Speaker 1: people who now rule Afghanistan.
Speaker 3: Well that is something that these governments are now grappling with.
Speaker 3: In these ambassadors and their staff are sort of in
Speaker 3: limbo that had their bank accounts frozen. They can't access
Speaker 3: any salary or money from back home, so they are
Speaker 3: stranded here and they've been doing their work with the
Speaker 3: support of their host governments. But in July of last year,
Speaker 3: the Taliban issued a statement saying they were no longer
Speaker 3: going to recognize passports or other paperwork that had been
Speaker 3: issued by these posts, because there were some embassies that
Speaker 3: had recognized the new regia and were working for the
Speaker 3: Taliban in various countries, but there was something like seventeen
Speaker 3: of them that had not, and Australia was on the
Speaker 3: list of those countries. After that statement was issued, the
Speaker 3: British and Norwegian governments closed those exile Afghan missions, and
Speaker 3: the Norwegians ultimately also accepted a Taliban representative. And then
Speaker 3: recently Germany followed suit and the Afghan exile diplomats in
Speaker 3: Born have all resigned because the German government has brought
Speaker 3: into diplomats representing the Taliban regime, facilitated their entry to
Speaker 3: the country, recognizing them as the legitimate representatives of Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: Right, And so does it seem like Australia might follow suit?
Speaker 3: Well, the Australian government has provided me with a statement
Speaker 3: that says, quote the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of
Speaker 3: Afghanistan remains open, that they have no plans to recognize
Speaker 3: the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan and that they
Speaker 3: have not quote directed Ambassador Wasi to close the embassy
Speaker 3: unquote and the statement says, quote, we will keep working
Speaker 3: closely with Ambassador Wassi. Australia does not regard the Taliban
Speaker 3: as the legitimate representation of the Afghan people. Our focus
Speaker 3: is on the Australian Afghan community now. They made the
Speaker 3: point that the Australian Passport's Office and the Department of
Speaker 3: Home Affairs were continuing to assist Afghan Australians with travel
Speaker 3: documents who were seeking to travel or seeking to lodge
Speaker 3: visa or citizenship applications. And they also emphasize the support
Speaker 3: that Australia has given to the Afghan people two hundred
Speaker 3: and sixteen million dollars in humanitarian assistance, particularly focused on
Speaker 3: the needs of women and girls there, and the government
Speaker 3: also has provided another one million dollars following those terrible
Speaker 3: earthquakes there. Australia has offered its support to try and
Speaker 3: assist where it can. But there is this difficulty that
Speaker 3: countries like Australia are not recognizing the Taliban regime and
Speaker 3: not wanting that support to end up with the Taliban
Speaker 3: hierarchy rather than with the people themselves.
Speaker 1: And it is a highly unusual arrangement to have, you know,
Speaker 1: our government continue to recognize an epathy that doesn't actually
Speaker 1: represent the government that is ruling Afghanistan.
Speaker 3: It is, and this is where the problem lies. It's
Speaker 3: a big question of how you deal with that as
Speaker 3: a government. Some in the government appointing to the nineteen
Speaker 3: sixty one via a Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which lays
Speaker 3: out the circumstances in which people can be appointed as
Speaker 3: diplomats on behalf of a government, and there is concern
Speaker 3: that because the Taliban regime says these people no longer
Speaker 3: represent our interests, then the diplomats can't be covered by
Speaker 3: that convention anymore now, I think interestingly, the President of
Speaker 3: the United States has said in recent weeks that he
Speaker 3: wants the Taliban regime to hand back the Bagram Air
Speaker 3: Base north of Carble to the United States government.
Speaker 4: We're going to keep Bagram, the big airbase, that one
Speaker 4: of the biggest airbases in the world. We gave it
Speaker 4: to them for nothing. We're trying to get it back.
Speaker 4: By the way, Okay, that could be a little breaking news.
Speaker 4: We're trying to get it back because they need things
Speaker 4: from us. We want that base back.
Speaker 3: Now that is the air based the Coalition forces operated
Speaker 3: out of during the decades long conflict in Afghanistan. After
Speaker 3: the terrorist attacks of September eleven, two thousand and one.
Speaker 3: But I could argue logically that you might think that
Speaker 3: if Donald Trump wants something from the Taliban, that as
Speaker 3: a deal maker, he might be wanting to find out
Speaker 3: what they want in return. And you can imagine at
Speaker 3: the very least Taliban might be saying, what we want
Speaker 3: is all these embassies.
Speaker 2: Shut what's the Taliban saying?
Speaker 5: This is from their ambassador and cutter about the United States.
Speaker 5: If they want good relations, investment in Afghanistan, trade, normal
Speaker 5: diplomatic relations, they are welcome. But if they entertained covetous
Speaker 5: aims whatsoever, then they speaking of the US, need to
Speaker 5: go through the history of Afghanistan once more, from the
Speaker 5: era of the British invasion down to the recent US invasion.
Speaker 3: What the Taliban, we know, will ultimately want is for
Speaker 3: the rest of the world to acknowledge them as a
Speaker 3: legitimate government, and that is not the case at the moment,
Speaker 3: and we saw some debate at the United Nations recently
Speaker 3: about that. So they will be seeking legitimacy, And it's
Speaker 3: just interesting timing that the President of the United States
Speaker 3: has made this point recently.
Speaker 1: Coming up, what is the international community's responsibility to the
Speaker 1: women and girls living under Taliban rule? So, Karen, You've
Speaker 1: been speaking with Afghanistan's ambassador in exile in Australia and
Speaker 1: recently there was this internet blackout across the whole country
Speaker 1: across Afghanistan that lasted a couple of days. So what
Speaker 1: is it like for him trying to understand news like
Speaker 1: that back home?
Speaker 2: Well, it's impossible.
Speaker 3: I mean, this has never happened before that an entire
Speaker 3: country was completely isolated from the rest of the world.
Speaker 6: Afghanistance Doliban governments imposed and nationwide communications shut down just
Speaker 6: weeks after introducing fiber optic internet.
Speaker 3: That ban was a telekingmunications band that covered fiber Internet
Speaker 3: but also mobile phone services, and the whole country couldn't
Speaker 3: access communications.
Speaker 6: Well, at the moment, we don't have an official response
Speaker 6: from the town about about exactly why they're doing this.
Speaker 2: What we do know though, is that there was a spokesperson.
Speaker 6: But earlier in this month, one of the first provinces
Speaker 6: to have their fiber networks cut off and they talked
Speaker 6: about the fact that this had come from the Supreme
Speaker 6: Leader and that this was about, in their words, curbing
Speaker 6: evils now.
Speaker 3: And that goes to every level, so banking and travel services,
Speaker 3: you know, aviation, everything had to stop because they couldn't
Speaker 3: access the internet all.
Speaker 2: The way down to the very local level.
Speaker 3: And the regime has been so strict, particularly on women,
Speaker 3: that a lot of people at the local level, the
Speaker 3: household level, have been relying on internet access to get
Speaker 3: news to and from the rest of the world. Some
Speaker 3: women in particular have been accessing education services that they
Speaker 3: can't get in their own country anymore.
Speaker 2: And that was all cut off. Now.
Speaker 3: It was partly restored after a day or so, but
Speaker 3: not completely really. What was restored was the mobile phone services,
Speaker 3: but that's not a stable internet connection like a fiber
Speaker 3: optic services. So the ambassador provided a statement talking about
Speaker 3: this situation, saying it amounted to the collective punishment of
Speaker 3: the Afghan people, that it was a breach of human rights,
Speaker 3: and he said that it was quote aimed at suppressing
Speaker 3: the voices of millions of citizens, blocking online education and
Speaker 3: access to information, concealing their crimes. And he's talking about
Speaker 3: the Taliban bear and isolating an entire nation from the world.
Speaker 1: And Karen, it's been four years now since the Taliban
Speaker 1: took power in Afghanistan. Just how dramatically has the country
Speaker 1: changed in that time.
Speaker 2: It's changed in every way.
Speaker 3: If we remember that to that first Trump administration and
Speaker 3: the deal that was being negotiated for the coalition forces
Speaker 3: to withdraw, there was all this talk about.
Speaker 2: Taliban two point zero. But Taliban had changed.
Speaker 3: They weren't the draconian regime that would punish women.
Speaker 2: You know, they were enlightened.
Speaker 3: It would be different now, and of course that was rubbish.
Speaker 3: It's worse than ever. But Taliban have forbidden women in
Speaker 3: Afghanistan from talking to each other. But they's just been
Speaker 3: a series of increasing le draconian restrictions since the group
Speaker 3: seized power three years ago. Women are subject to worse
Speaker 3: restrictions than ever, completely banned from education and for most
Speaker 3: employment as well, and subject to horrifically extreme restrictions on
Speaker 3: their movements and activities. In general, they have no future
Speaker 3: in a country, and we know there's a violent crackdown.
Speaker 2: We know that anyone against the regime suffers punishment.
Speaker 3: People have tried to flee but in recent times there've
Speaker 3: been moves by some surrounding countries to send people back,
Speaker 3: and there's now this spear that there will be a
Speaker 3: greater push for repatriation of Afghanist who fled and they
Speaker 3: might be forced to go back and this is not
Speaker 3: a regime that they want to live under.
Speaker 2: So a lot has changed.
Speaker 3: There is an argument that the world has not moved
Speaker 3: quickly enough to respond and that they've changed their focus.
Speaker 3: And we know there've been other wars have emerged since
Speaker 3: we've got the problems in the Middle East, We've got
Speaker 3: the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the tension has gone
Speaker 3: off Afghanistan and this has been allowed to occur and
Speaker 3: get worse and worse over the last four years.
Speaker 1: And Karen, Countries like Australia have a measure of responsibility
Speaker 1: for the position that Afghanistan is in today, but to
Speaker 1: provide any aid or support they do have to work
Speaker 1: with the people who are running the country, who are,
Speaker 1: as you say, responsible for some pretty reprehensible policies, particularly
Speaker 1: when it comes to women. So how do countries like
Speaker 1: Australia trying and walk that moral type rope.
Speaker 2: That's the really big question.
Speaker 3: You know, there's constant pressure from advocates for the Afghan
Speaker 3: people on these other governments to not give in, to
Speaker 3: not recognize to Taliban, because as soon as that sort
Speaker 3: of dan wall is broken, then that is they argue
Speaker 3: tacit acknowledgment and acceptance of the kinds of behaviors and
Speaker 3: activities that they engage in. But there was quite a
Speaker 3: vivid example of the change in the country in the
Speaker 3: shape of an event that the exiled Afghan ambassador and
Speaker 3: colleagues hosted in August this year to mark the one
Speaker 3: hundred and sixth anniversary of independence.
Speaker 2: From British rule.
Speaker 3: They had a flag raising ceremony in a number of speeches,
Speaker 3: and among the speakers was a young triple Olympic athlete,
Speaker 3: Kima Yusafi, who's a sprinter who competed at the Paris
Speaker 3: Olympics with five other exiled athletes under the Afghan flag,
Speaker 3: and she gave a very passionate speech which was translated
Speaker 3: into English, and she spoke about the veried dreams of
Speaker 3: thousands of Afghan women and girls and said that here
Speaker 3: in exile they carry a responsibility under that flag to
Speaker 3: be the voice of the women and girls left in
Speaker 3: Afghanistan and to keep their hopes alive. And she talked
Speaker 3: about every small step being a long path to freedom,
Speaker 3: that sport has taught her there's no true finish line
Speaker 3: and that every ending is simply the beginning of another race.
Speaker 3: So a demonstration of the kind of resilience and optimism
Speaker 3: they have to retain to think and hope that they
Speaker 3: can make change in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: Well, Karen, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2: Thanks Ruby.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, eight organizations are calling for full
Speaker 1: access to the Gaza strip amid the first phase of
Speaker 1: the peace agreement between Hamas and Israel.
Speaker 2: US President Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: And Arab leaders met in Egypt to cite a cease
Speaker 1: fire deal as the last living Israeli hostages were reunited
Speaker 1: with family, and some Palestinian prisoners returned to the West Bank.
Speaker 1: United Nations Children's Agency UNISEF says it has thirteen hundred
Speaker 1: trucks of supplies ready to enter from Egypt and Jordan
Speaker 1: and is calling for all crossings into Gaza to be opened.
Speaker 1: And Communications Minister Anika Wells has announced a national advertising
Speaker 1: campaign for the government's social media ban.
Speaker 2: For under sixteens.
Speaker 1: The ban is due to come into effect on December
Speaker 1: tenth on platforms including Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, x and YouTube.
Speaker 1: Anika Wells says the campaign will feature on billboards near schools,
Speaker 1: on TV, and on social media, and that the vast
Speaker 1: majority of students that she's spoken to say they're grateful
Speaker 1: for the laws. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.