WEBVTT - The embassy run by exiles 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:08.400 I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. When 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:12.200 the Taliban retook Afghanistan in August twenty twenty one, the 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:16.079 country's embassy in Canberra stayed open. It's an embassy in 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.599 exile staffed by diplomats from the former administration and advocating 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.640 on behalf of Afghans here in Australia. Until now, there 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.600 have been seventeen embassies of it's kind around the world 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.600 in countries that don't formally recognize the Taliban, but recently 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.879 Germany decided to expel its embassy's exiled staff and instead 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:41.760 invite representatives of the Taliban regime. Today Press Gallery journalist 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.559 Karen Middleton on diplomacy in exile and life under the 0:00:45.600 --> 0:01:00.360 Taliban for the people of Afghanistan. It's Wednesday, October fifteenth, 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.400 So Karen, in Canberra, there is an office, an embassy 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:10.200 for Afghanistan, but it does not answer to the Taliban. 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.640 So what is it and who works there? Yeah, it's 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:14.800 a bit confusing for people. 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:16.600 I think who hear that there is an embassy for 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.880 Afghanistan and assume that it's a Taliban embassy. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.720 But you're right, this is an unusual situation. 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.400 It's staffed by diplomats who worked for the previous administration 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.800 in Afghanistan before the Taliban took over in twenty twenty one. 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:35.360 The ambassador, Wachidula Wassi and a skeleton staff are still 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:36.400 operating out. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.680 Of the embassy. They're doing basically consilar work. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.600 They're trying to support Afghans in Australia who are trying 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.200 to keep a connection with Afghanistan with family there, and 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.800 they had been still issuing passports and the like. So 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.480 it's an unusual arrangement. It's an embassy in exile, and 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.560 it's one of a number of them around the world 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:00.000 that have continued to operate for the last four years. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.120 So how sustainable is that current? Can these embassies stay 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.960 open all over the world if they don't represent the 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.680 people who now rule Afghanistan. 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.960 Well that is something that these governments are now grappling with. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.720 In these ambassadors and their staff are sort of in 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.800 limbo that had their bank accounts frozen. They can't access 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.680 any salary or money from back home, so they are 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.640 stranded here and they've been doing their work with the 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.919 support of their host governments. But in July of last year, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.200 the Taliban issued a statement saying they were no longer 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.000 going to recognize passports or other paperwork that had been 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.360 issued by these posts, because there were some embassies that 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.360 had recognized the new regia and were working for the 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.800 Taliban in various countries, but there was something like seventeen 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.040 of them that had not, and Australia was on the 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:55.560 list of those countries. After that statement was issued, the 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:01.560 British and Norwegian governments closed those exile Afghan missions, and 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:07.120 the Norwegians ultimately also accepted a Taliban representative. And then 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.079 recently Germany followed suit and the Afghan exile diplomats in 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.919 Born have all resigned because the German government has brought 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.200 into diplomats representing the Taliban regime, facilitated their entry to 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.880 the country, recognizing them as the legitimate representatives of Afghanistan. 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.959 Right, And so does it seem like Australia might follow suit? 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.840 Well, the Australian government has provided me with a statement 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.800 that says, quote the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:39.760 Afghanistan remains open, that they have no plans to recognize 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.480 the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan and that they 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.640 have not quote directed Ambassador Wasi to close the embassy 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.000 unquote and the statement says, quote, we will keep working 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.240 closely with Ambassador Wassi. Australia does not regard the Taliban 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.040 as the legitimate representation of the Afghan people. Our focus 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:01.440 is on the Australian Afghan community now. They made the 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.640 point that the Australian Passport's Office and the Department of 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:09.480 Home Affairs were continuing to assist Afghan Australians with travel 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.240 documents who were seeking to travel or seeking to lodge 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:17.120 visa or citizenship applications. And they also emphasize the support 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.679 that Australia has given to the Afghan people two hundred 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.960 and sixteen million dollars in humanitarian assistance, particularly focused on 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.920 the needs of women and girls there, and the government 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:31.520 also has provided another one million dollars following those terrible 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.839 earthquakes there. Australia has offered its support to try and 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.320 assist where it can. But there is this difficulty that 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.480 countries like Australia are not recognizing the Taliban regime and 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.839 not wanting that support to end up with the Taliban 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.040 hierarchy rather than with the people themselves. 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:53.960 And it is a highly unusual arrangement to have, you know, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:58.320 our government continue to recognize an epathy that doesn't actually 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.680 represent the government that is ruling Afghanistan. 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.280 It is, and this is where the problem lies. It's 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.760 a big question of how you deal with that as 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.359 a government. Some in the government appointing to the nineteen 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.760 sixty one via a Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which lays 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.480 out the circumstances in which people can be appointed as 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.640 diplomats on behalf of a government, and there is concern 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.760 that because the Taliban regime says these people no longer 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:29.200 represent our interests, then the diplomats can't be covered by 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.039 that convention anymore now, I think interestingly, the President of 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.880 the United States has said in recent weeks that he 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.880 wants the Taliban regime to hand back the Bagram Air 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.160 Base north of Carble to the United States government. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.720 We're going to keep Bagram, the big airbase, that one 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.599 of the biggest airbases in the world. We gave it 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.320 to them for nothing. We're trying to get it back. 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.880 By the way, Okay, that could be a little breaking news. 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.920 We're trying to get it back because they need things 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:58.920 from us. We want that base back. 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.120 Now that is the air based the Coalition forces operated 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.880 out of during the decades long conflict in Afghanistan. After 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.560 the terrorist attacks of September eleven, two thousand and one. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.400 But I could argue logically that you might think that 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.720 if Donald Trump wants something from the Taliban, that as 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.640 a deal maker, he might be wanting to find out 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.440 what they want in return. And you can imagine at 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.160 the very least Taliban might be saying, what we want 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:25.799 is all these embassies. 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:26.880 Shut what's the Taliban saying? 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.400 This is from their ambassador and cutter about the United States. 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.480 If they want good relations, investment in Afghanistan, trade, normal 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.680 diplomatic relations, they are welcome. But if they entertained covetous 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.560 aims whatsoever, then they speaking of the US, need to 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.480 go through the history of Afghanistan once more, from the 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.720 era of the British invasion down to the recent US invasion. 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.320 What the Taliban, we know, will ultimately want is for 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.240 the rest of the world to acknowledge them as a 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.440 legitimate government, and that is not the case at the moment, 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.000 and we saw some debate at the United Nations recently 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.760 about that. So they will be seeking legitimacy, And it's 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.359 just interesting timing that the President of the United States 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.000 has made this point recently. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:13.440 Coming up, what is the international community's responsibility to the 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:25.960 women and girls living under Taliban rule? So, Karen, You've 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:30.880 been speaking with Afghanistan's ambassador in exile in Australia and 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.800 recently there was this internet blackout across the whole country 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.520 across Afghanistan that lasted a couple of days. So what 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.680 is it like for him trying to understand news like 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:42.520 that back home? 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:43.960 Well, it's impossible. 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:46.119 I mean, this has never happened before that an entire 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.080 country was completely isolated from the rest of the world. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:55.200 Afghanistance Doliban governments imposed and nationwide communications shut down just 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.240 weeks after introducing fiber optic internet. 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.800 That ban was a telekingmunications band that covered fiber Internet 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.880 but also mobile phone services, and the whole country couldn't 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:08.600 access communications. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.080 Well, at the moment, we don't have an official response 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.200 from the town about about exactly why they're doing this. 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.280 What we do know though, is that there was a spokesperson. 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.560 But earlier in this month, one of the first provinces 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.520 to have their fiber networks cut off and they talked 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.720 about the fact that this had come from the Supreme 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.080 Leader and that this was about, in their words, curbing 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:27.520 evils now. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.200 And that goes to every level, so banking and travel services, 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.360 you know, aviation, everything had to stop because they couldn't 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.280 access the internet all. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.400 The way down to the very local level. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:43.079 And the regime has been so strict, particularly on women, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:45.960 that a lot of people at the local level, the 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.880 household level, have been relying on internet access to get 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.400 news to and from the rest of the world. Some 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.040 women in particular have been accessing education services that they 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.000 can't get in their own country anymore. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.480 And that was all cut off. Now. 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.360 It was partly restored after a day or so, but 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.960 not completely really. What was restored was the mobile phone services, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.199 but that's not a stable internet connection like a fiber 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:15.480 optic services. So the ambassador provided a statement talking about 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.640 this situation, saying it amounted to the collective punishment of 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.679 the Afghan people, that it was a breach of human rights, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.920 and he said that it was quote aimed at suppressing 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.600 the voices of millions of citizens, blocking online education and 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.440 access to information, concealing their crimes. And he's talking about 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.520 the Taliban bear and isolating an entire nation from the world. 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.440 And Karen, it's been four years now since the Taliban 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:47.040 took power in Afghanistan. Just how dramatically has the country 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:48.120 changed in that time. 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.200 It's changed in every way. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.600 If we remember that to that first Trump administration and 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.680 the deal that was being negotiated for the coalition forces 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.120 to withdraw, there was all this talk about. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.000 Taliban two point zero. But Taliban had changed. 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.760 They weren't the draconian regime that would punish women. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:08.280 You know, they were enlightened. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.160 It would be different now, and of course that was rubbish. 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.560 It's worse than ever. But Taliban have forbidden women in 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.320 Afghanistan from talking to each other. But they's just been 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.640 a series of increasing le draconian restrictions since the group 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.840 seized power three years ago. Women are subject to worse 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:28.120 restrictions than ever, completely banned from education and for most 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:33.400 employment as well, and subject to horrifically extreme restrictions on 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.080 their movements and activities. In general, they have no future 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.720 in a country, and we know there's a violent crackdown. 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.400 We know that anyone against the regime suffers punishment. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.040 People have tried to flee but in recent times there've 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.040 been moves by some surrounding countries to send people back, 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.360 and there's now this spear that there will be a 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.120 greater push for repatriation of Afghanist who fled and they 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.559 might be forced to go back and this is not 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.560 a regime that they want to live under. 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:02.240 So a lot has changed. 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.240 There is an argument that the world has not moved 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:10.200 quickly enough to respond and that they've changed their focus. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.360 And we know there've been other wars have emerged since 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:14.280 we've got the problems in the Middle East, We've got 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.720 the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the tension has gone 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.840 off Afghanistan and this has been allowed to occur and 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.360 get worse and worse over the last four years. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:28.840 And Karen, Countries like Australia have a measure of responsibility 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.520 for the position that Afghanistan is in today, but to 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.560 provide any aid or support they do have to work 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.600 with the people who are running the country, who are, 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:43.280 as you say, responsible for some pretty reprehensible policies, particularly 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.040 when it comes to women. So how do countries like 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.840 Australia trying and walk that moral type rope. 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:51.320 That's the really big question. 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.400 You know, there's constant pressure from advocates for the Afghan 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.240 people on these other governments to not give in, to 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.680 not recognize to Taliban, because as soon as that sort 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:05.119 of dan wall is broken, then that is they argue 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:10.200 tacit acknowledgment and acceptance of the kinds of behaviors and 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.560 activities that they engage in. But there was quite a 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.800 vivid example of the change in the country in the 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.040 shape of an event that the exiled Afghan ambassador and 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.839 colleagues hosted in August this year to mark the one 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.000 hundred and sixth anniversary of independence. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:26.440 From British rule. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.680 They had a flag raising ceremony in a number of speeches, 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.480 and among the speakers was a young triple Olympic athlete, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.520 Kima Yusafi, who's a sprinter who competed at the Paris 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.280 Olympics with five other exiled athletes under the Afghan flag, 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.600 and she gave a very passionate speech which was translated 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.880 into English, and she spoke about the veried dreams of 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.600 thousands of Afghan women and girls and said that here 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.240 in exile they carry a responsibility under that flag to 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.560 be the voice of the women and girls left in 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.800 Afghanistan and to keep their hopes alive. And she talked 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.640 about every small step being a long path to freedom, 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.679 that sport has taught her there's no true finish line 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.120 and that every ending is simply the beginning of another race. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.160 So a demonstration of the kind of resilience and optimism 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.319 they have to retain to think and hope that they 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:18.800 can make change in Afghanistan. 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:23.760 Well, Karen, thank you so much for your time. 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.680 Thanks Ruby. 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.319 Also in the news, eight organizations are calling for full 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.000 access to the Gaza strip amid the first phase of 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.400 the peace agreement between Hamas and Israel. 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.319 US President Donald Trump. 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.640 And Arab leaders met in Egypt to cite a cease 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.400 fire deal as the last living Israeli hostages were reunited 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.200 with family, and some Palestinian prisoners returned to the West Bank. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.920 United Nations Children's Agency UNISEF says it has thirteen hundred 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.920 trucks of supplies ready to enter from Egypt and Jordan 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.360 and is calling for all crossings into Gaza to be opened. 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:16.400 And Communications Minister Anika Wells has announced a national advertising 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.720 campaign for the government's social media ban. 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:19.760 For under sixteens. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.640 The ban is due to come into effect on December 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.400 tenth on platforms including Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, x and YouTube. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.560 Anika Wells says the campaign will feature on billboards near schools, 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.520 on TV, and on social media, and that the vast 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.680 majority of students that she's spoken to say they're grateful 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.760 for the laws. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:42.520 Thanks for listening.