1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approache production. 2 00:00:10,161 --> 00:00:13,841 Speaker 2: Before we begin, a warning. This episode discusses the death 3 00:00:13,881 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 2: of a woman and the discovery of her remains. If 4 00:00:17,521 --> 00:00:27,041 Speaker 2: these topics are unsettling, please take care while listening. Welcome 5 00:00:27,081 --> 00:00:29,881 Speaker 2: back to the Missing Matter. This is part two of 6 00:00:29,961 --> 00:00:34,801 Speaker 2: Sal's conversation with Greg Jenkins, a son who spent years 7 00:00:34,801 --> 00:00:39,161 Speaker 2: fighting for answers after his mum, Anna Jenkins, vanished while 8 00:00:39,161 --> 00:00:43,361 Speaker 2: traveling overseas. In part one, we heard the beginnings of 9 00:00:43,361 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: Anna's disappearance, but in this episode we move into what 10 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,841 Speaker 2: happened after the discoveries, the obstacles, and the system Greg 11 00:00:52,881 --> 00:00:58,521 Speaker 2: says failed his family at every turn because Anna matters. 12 00:01:02,601 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 3: So that occurred on the eighth August is when I 13 00:01:06,921 --> 00:01:11,601 Speaker 3: found that. And it's like they keep slamming doors, and 14 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,681 Speaker 3: I felt his own mum kept trying to jam a 15 00:01:14,801 --> 00:01:17,561 Speaker 3: foot in it to go No, not just yet. I 16 00:01:17,761 --> 00:01:21,841 Speaker 3: ended up finding Mum's vertebrae, found some finger fragments and 17 00:01:21,881 --> 00:01:25,601 Speaker 3: a skulle fragment. Same again, like I thought, this is 18 00:01:25,681 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: huge now it was ebbs and flows of This is 19 00:01:30,521 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: heartbreaking that I found Mum's remains. But I think the 20 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,121 Speaker 3: fact that we've now got potentially a door open for answers, 21 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,481 Speaker 3: this is going to be huge. Everything stopped again and 22 00:01:44,521 --> 00:01:47,641 Speaker 3: they said, yep, thanks for that. We think you planted it. 23 00:01:48,481 --> 00:01:50,361 Speaker 3: So that was the next thing I had to fight, 24 00:01:51,001 --> 00:01:53,441 Speaker 3: was you obviously planted that bone because you wanted to 25 00:01:53,441 --> 00:01:57,121 Speaker 3: make them Malaysian police look bad. And I just told 26 00:01:57,161 --> 00:01:59,001 Speaker 3: the investigation I SA straight out, I said, you don't 27 00:01:59,041 --> 00:02:02,001 Speaker 3: need my help for that. You're doing a great job 28 00:02:02,041 --> 00:02:04,241 Speaker 3: on your own. I said, well, why not do forensic 29 00:02:04,281 --> 00:02:07,001 Speaker 3: testing of all of my possessions, Go to my room, 30 00:02:07,081 --> 00:02:08,961 Speaker 3: go have a look at everything, because obviously there if 31 00:02:09,001 --> 00:02:12,601 Speaker 3: I'm whole in Mum's remains, there's just ludicrous, you know 32 00:02:12,641 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: what I mean. Like they did everything that they could 33 00:02:15,361 --> 00:02:19,041 Speaker 3: to not investigate. So I threatened to go to the 34 00:02:19,081 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: Foreign minister. I'd already gone to the Foreign minister, but 35 00:02:22,601 --> 00:02:25,841 Speaker 3: they just ignored me, kept getting the media involved, and 36 00:02:25,921 --> 00:02:28,241 Speaker 3: because of that, we then managed to get the National 37 00:02:28,641 --> 00:02:30,521 Speaker 3: Kuala Lumpur forensic team down. 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,801 Speaker 4: They did two days of searching. 39 00:02:32,841 --> 00:02:35,601 Speaker 3: Within those two days, between me and them, we ended 40 00:02:35,641 --> 00:02:39,201 Speaker 3: up finding thirty four bones and fragments of Mum. 41 00:02:39,841 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 4: Then they shut it down again. 42 00:02:42,121 --> 00:02:44,041 Speaker 3: Like the fact that we found all right, now we're 43 00:02:44,041 --> 00:02:47,921 Speaker 3: starting to find more remains. Let's close off the construction site. 44 00:02:47,921 --> 00:02:50,881 Speaker 3: This is huge, but this is the biggest break in 45 00:02:50,921 --> 00:02:54,321 Speaker 3: a case. And like it's international, it's mum, it's it 46 00:02:54,361 --> 00:02:56,721 Speaker 3: could help so many people, but more importantly, it helps 47 00:02:56,761 --> 00:02:59,321 Speaker 3: our family. It helps mums. It helps us to get 48 00:02:59,321 --> 00:03:02,361 Speaker 3: the answers. And the first thing they did was close it. 49 00:03:03,201 --> 00:03:05,881 Speaker 3: The reason why they closed it, see if this makes 50 00:03:05,921 --> 00:03:10,081 Speaker 3: sense because I could not understand it and I couldn't 51 00:03:10,121 --> 00:03:13,521 Speaker 3: convince them to continue going. So the head of the 52 00:03:13,561 --> 00:03:17,761 Speaker 3: forensic department in Penang said that the reason why they've 53 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,241 Speaker 3: stopped it is because they didn't want to keep digging 54 00:03:20,841 --> 00:03:25,161 Speaker 3: in case they found more evidence and their digging equipment 55 00:03:25,361 --> 00:03:28,441 Speaker 3: could damage the evidence that they found. 56 00:03:28,481 --> 00:03:31,001 Speaker 4: So that's the reason why they stopped. 57 00:03:32,401 --> 00:03:35,401 Speaker 5: And so tell me where we're at now with your 58 00:03:35,481 --> 00:03:39,281 Speaker 5: mum's remains, Like what did they end up doing with 59 00:03:39,681 --> 00:03:42,441 Speaker 5: your beautiful mum's roomates. I'm so sorry you had to 60 00:03:42,481 --> 00:03:45,121 Speaker 5: find them too, By the way, like I just find 61 00:03:45,121 --> 00:03:47,761 Speaker 5: that I don't even know what the right word is. 62 00:03:49,721 --> 00:03:54,481 Speaker 5: Remarkable that you did, but it's so devastating at the 63 00:03:54,521 --> 00:03:57,241 Speaker 5: same time, but I'm so pleased that you found her 64 00:03:57,281 --> 00:03:59,681 Speaker 5: at the same time, it's such a and This is 65 00:03:59,721 --> 00:04:06,281 Speaker 5: where that ambiguity of emotions and feelings comes into our space. Said, yeah, 66 00:04:06,321 --> 00:04:10,401 Speaker 5: where are your Mum's remains? Tell everybody what's happened to 67 00:04:10,521 --> 00:04:11,241 Speaker 5: those bones? 68 00:04:12,441 --> 00:04:13,681 Speaker 4: This is two parts of the story. 69 00:04:13,761 --> 00:04:16,401 Speaker 3: This is every angle that you look at Mum's story 70 00:04:16,561 --> 00:04:19,881 Speaker 3: your gobsmacked of how can this occur? 71 00:04:20,001 --> 00:04:21,001 Speaker 4: In twenty twenty six. 72 00:04:21,201 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: So ended up fighting to bring Mum's remains home because 73 00:04:25,681 --> 00:04:28,841 Speaker 3: although they did their DNA testing in Malaysia, I don't 74 00:04:28,841 --> 00:04:32,241 Speaker 3: trust anything that the Malaysian authorities do. They've let Mum 75 00:04:32,281 --> 00:04:35,361 Speaker 3: down so many times during this journey that they've just 76 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: lost all trust and faith in me. So I managed 77 00:04:38,681 --> 00:04:40,881 Speaker 3: to fight hard, and it cost me so much to 78 00:04:41,361 --> 00:04:44,121 Speaker 3: get all the paperwork and stuff like that, but finally 79 00:04:44,121 --> 00:04:45,761 Speaker 3: got it done. I had to go to the Panang 80 00:04:45,801 --> 00:04:48,561 Speaker 3: Forensic Department to pick up Mum's remains. 81 00:04:48,921 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 6: That was a. 82 00:04:49,601 --> 00:04:53,361 Speaker 3: Hard, hard thing to do. Basically it was just laid 83 00:04:53,361 --> 00:04:55,601 Speaker 3: out on the table. I had to hold a picture 84 00:04:55,641 --> 00:04:58,161 Speaker 3: so they could take a photo for their own. I 85 00:04:58,201 --> 00:05:01,161 Speaker 3: don't even know why like it just it just felt 86 00:05:01,201 --> 00:05:03,881 Speaker 3: like it was a pr stunt for them. Because the 87 00:05:04,001 --> 00:05:06,441 Speaker 3: Panang Forensic departm and he came in and he stood 88 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,001 Speaker 3: next to me, and then another person stood on the 89 00:05:09,041 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: other side and I held up a piece of paper 90 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: saying scalidal remains of Anna Jenkins. 91 00:05:15,001 --> 00:05:19,681 Speaker 4: Took that and then it was so heartless. 92 00:05:20,281 --> 00:05:23,241 Speaker 3: They got a box from their back office and it 93 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,721 Speaker 3: had for molte hyde, just a cardboard box, so it 94 00:05:27,761 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 3: was empty. Then they just collected everything on this tray, 95 00:05:31,001 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: just scooped it up, dropped it in the box, put 96 00:05:33,681 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 3: it in, handed it there and that was it. And 97 00:05:35,761 --> 00:05:37,721 Speaker 3: I said, like, it's that it And then by then 98 00:05:37,921 --> 00:05:39,441 Speaker 3: most of them had just walked out and said yep, 99 00:05:39,521 --> 00:05:43,201 Speaker 3: that's it. And so at that time I was pretty 100 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 3: emotionally numb. Even now it's hard to put myself back 101 00:05:49,641 --> 00:05:51,161 Speaker 3: in that space because. 102 00:05:51,401 --> 00:05:53,521 Speaker 4: Just seeing thirty four. 103 00:05:54,801 --> 00:06:00,041 Speaker 3: Pieces of him um, and then to be disrespected by 104 00:06:00,121 --> 00:06:02,481 Speaker 3: throwing in a box to go all right, you're done, now, 105 00:06:02,561 --> 00:06:05,561 Speaker 3: off you go, that was a hard thing to to do. 106 00:06:05,681 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: And then again it's an event flowthing, so a negative 107 00:06:09,721 --> 00:06:12,681 Speaker 3: is turned into a positive because I went back to 108 00:06:12,721 --> 00:06:15,241 Speaker 3: them because I was doing research on how. 109 00:06:15,121 --> 00:06:17,521 Speaker 4: To bring humor remains back into Australia. 110 00:06:17,601 --> 00:06:21,161 Speaker 3: So for or in order to bring them out of Malaysia, 111 00:06:21,241 --> 00:06:22,721 Speaker 3: they have to be triple bagged. 112 00:06:23,041 --> 00:06:23,681 Speaker 4: And sealed. 113 00:06:24,201 --> 00:06:27,401 Speaker 3: So the next day I went back to the forensic 114 00:06:27,401 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: department in Penang and I said, like, all your evidence 115 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 3: bags are open, so there's no seal on them. I 116 00:06:35,241 --> 00:06:36,841 Speaker 3: want to take them back to Australia and they need 117 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: to be triple seal and that's not our job. And 118 00:06:39,961 --> 00:06:42,601 Speaker 3: it's OK, all right, cool, but you've given me bags 119 00:06:42,601 --> 00:06:44,361 Speaker 3: that are unsealed. 120 00:06:45,281 --> 00:06:45,961 Speaker 4: Didn't want to hear it. 121 00:06:47,241 --> 00:06:49,921 Speaker 1: Why are you hating to do this? Greg? 122 00:06:50,041 --> 00:06:53,601 Speaker 5: Why are you Why is this on your shoulders to 123 00:06:53,721 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 5: have to do this? Why isn't why want you getting 124 00:06:56,801 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 5: any help? I don't want to add to your trauma 125 00:06:59,561 --> 00:07:02,041 Speaker 5: by saying that, but I just am sitting here with 126 00:07:02,121 --> 00:07:04,761 Speaker 5: tears in my eyes as you're explaining that. I can't 127 00:07:04,761 --> 00:07:07,921 Speaker 5: even begin to imagine what that would have been like 128 00:07:08,001 --> 00:07:08,441 Speaker 5: for you. 129 00:07:08,961 --> 00:07:09,161 Speaker 6: Yeah. 130 00:07:09,401 --> 00:07:13,361 Speaker 3: I never wish that upon anyone to have to do. 131 00:07:13,961 --> 00:07:17,041 Speaker 3: But they told me it wasn't it wasn't their job. 132 00:07:17,081 --> 00:07:19,961 Speaker 3: I asked for evidence bags that actually had seals and 133 00:07:20,001 --> 00:07:22,521 Speaker 3: they said no. I said, I'll even buy them off 134 00:07:22,561 --> 00:07:24,761 Speaker 3: of you if that's what you want, and I said, 135 00:07:24,801 --> 00:07:27,681 Speaker 3: not our job. So I just wanted to get out 136 00:07:27,761 --> 00:07:30,721 Speaker 3: of Panang. But what I also wanted to do was 137 00:07:30,921 --> 00:07:33,721 Speaker 3: pretty emotional. I did a farewell to it for Mom, 138 00:07:34,321 --> 00:07:37,921 Speaker 3: so ended up driving her around Panang. I knew all 139 00:07:37,961 --> 00:07:43,561 Speaker 3: the places that she liked. I took her back to 140 00:07:43,841 --> 00:07:46,801 Speaker 3: where she was born, did a drive around there, and. 141 00:07:46,721 --> 00:07:48,961 Speaker 1: Then who was with you at that time? 142 00:07:50,241 --> 00:07:53,321 Speaker 4: Just me and mom, just you and your mom. 143 00:07:53,961 --> 00:07:56,881 Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously I had support with Jen, so we're doing 144 00:07:57,281 --> 00:08:01,801 Speaker 3: video calls. I had support with Frank Pangelo, the MP. 145 00:08:02,601 --> 00:08:05,561 Speaker 3: He'd called in just to check in and he media 146 00:08:05,601 --> 00:08:08,641 Speaker 3: involved as well. So we pulled over the side of 147 00:08:08,681 --> 00:08:12,001 Speaker 3: the road and had to talk and it was pretty emotional. 148 00:08:12,041 --> 00:08:15,481 Speaker 3: But then ended up getting back to KL went to 149 00:08:16,041 --> 00:08:17,801 Speaker 3: booked a room and then I had to go to 150 00:08:17,961 --> 00:08:22,241 Speaker 3: mister Diy, which is like a Bunnings to buy plastic bags. 151 00:08:22,361 --> 00:08:26,361 Speaker 3: I got security seals and just everything that I needed 152 00:08:26,641 --> 00:08:30,681 Speaker 3: to basically try and secure Mum's remains as much as 153 00:08:30,721 --> 00:08:31,001 Speaker 3: I can. 154 00:08:31,641 --> 00:08:33,321 Speaker 4: I tried to document. 155 00:08:32,921 --> 00:08:35,401 Speaker 3: Everything, and this is what I mean about like it 156 00:08:35,481 --> 00:08:38,761 Speaker 3: was so hard doing it. But I also, again I've 157 00:08:38,801 --> 00:08:42,481 Speaker 3: got no expertise in this, but what I ended up 158 00:08:42,481 --> 00:08:46,161 Speaker 3: finding was there were so many marks on the left 159 00:08:46,201 --> 00:08:50,761 Speaker 3: hand bones of Mum and they didn't look like like brute. 160 00:08:50,761 --> 00:08:52,281 Speaker 4: Because I was googling, like what. 161 00:08:52,401 --> 00:08:56,281 Speaker 3: Does long term injuries Like Mum's never broken bones or anything, 162 00:08:56,321 --> 00:08:59,361 Speaker 3: but all on the left hand side was little marks 163 00:08:59,761 --> 00:09:03,881 Speaker 3: and it looks as if she's been attacked on the 164 00:09:03,961 --> 00:09:06,641 Speaker 3: left hand side, So that's what I mean. Like, it 165 00:09:07,561 --> 00:09:11,321 Speaker 3: was hard enough to put Mum's remained into a bag 166 00:09:11,401 --> 00:09:14,401 Speaker 3: to bring them home, but on the if you try 167 00:09:14,401 --> 00:09:17,121 Speaker 3: and turn a negative into a positive, I was able 168 00:09:17,201 --> 00:09:20,441 Speaker 3: to look at them myself to then pass on that 169 00:09:20,521 --> 00:09:23,721 Speaker 3: information and go, hey, this is kind of backing up 170 00:09:23,801 --> 00:09:26,601 Speaker 3: everything that we're saying that that's happened to Mum, that 171 00:09:26,641 --> 00:09:29,841 Speaker 3: she was kidnapped and murdered. So packed them up, had 172 00:09:29,841 --> 00:09:32,481 Speaker 3: to get all the clearance through Quantus and Jetstar, who 173 00:09:32,481 --> 00:09:36,121 Speaker 3: I was flying back with. Normally I won't have too 174 00:09:36,161 --> 00:09:39,161 Speaker 3: many positive things to say about airlines because they rip 175 00:09:39,201 --> 00:09:43,001 Speaker 3: you off, but the staff on jet Star and Conscious 176 00:09:43,041 --> 00:09:48,121 Speaker 3: on that flight home was next level. They treated Mum 177 00:09:48,241 --> 00:09:51,081 Speaker 3: like a VIP, even though you know it was only 178 00:09:51,121 --> 00:09:54,041 Speaker 3: thirty four bones and fragments in a cardboard box. 179 00:09:54,521 --> 00:09:58,321 Speaker 4: The respect that they had was unbelievable. 180 00:09:58,361 --> 00:10:02,161 Speaker 3: Then when we landed, obviously pretty emotional Gem was there 181 00:10:02,241 --> 00:10:05,601 Speaker 3: and we had heaps of media that turned up Adelaide 182 00:10:05,641 --> 00:10:09,561 Speaker 3: Airport with this big thing too. Like again, I don't 183 00:10:09,601 --> 00:10:14,081 Speaker 3: have many positive things to say about politicians, but for 184 00:10:14,201 --> 00:10:18,241 Speaker 3: Frank Pangalo to be there as well. He has basically 185 00:10:18,281 --> 00:10:23,041 Speaker 3: supported our family and mum from day one and to 186 00:10:23,081 --> 00:10:26,681 Speaker 3: have him there as well, but he didn't get involved 187 00:10:26,721 --> 00:10:28,481 Speaker 3: in the media. 188 00:10:28,561 --> 00:10:29,801 Speaker 4: He just wanted to be there. 189 00:10:29,841 --> 00:10:31,881 Speaker 3: He gave us a hug and then he just took 190 00:10:31,921 --> 00:10:34,321 Speaker 3: a step back, and then it got to a point 191 00:10:34,321 --> 00:10:37,321 Speaker 3: where I just couldn't talk anymore and just ask him 192 00:10:37,481 --> 00:10:41,361 Speaker 3: if he can jump in. Then we managed to then 193 00:10:41,401 --> 00:10:44,921 Speaker 3: hand over Mum's remains to the South Australian Police, the 194 00:10:44,961 --> 00:10:48,681 Speaker 3: South Astralian Forensic Science Unit and again South Australian Police 195 00:10:48,721 --> 00:10:52,361 Speaker 3: have been absolutely phenomenal during this. Even though they don't 196 00:10:52,401 --> 00:10:55,481 Speaker 3: have a hand in the case, they still were able 197 00:10:55,561 --> 00:10:58,721 Speaker 3: to give advice when they were able to and also 198 00:10:58,961 --> 00:11:02,481 Speaker 3: to respectfully takee Mum's remains as soon as possible so 199 00:11:02,521 --> 00:11:03,721 Speaker 3: they could get the ball rolling. 200 00:11:04,641 --> 00:11:06,761 Speaker 1: You are so tough. You're so tough. 201 00:11:07,401 --> 00:11:09,841 Speaker 5: I knew this story was going to be hard to 202 00:11:09,881 --> 00:11:12,641 Speaker 5: sit and listen to. You talk to me one on 203 00:11:12,641 --> 00:11:15,681 Speaker 5: one about this because I was finding it a challenge 204 00:11:16,161 --> 00:11:19,321 Speaker 5: from the get go and just trying to imagine what 205 00:11:19,441 --> 00:11:22,001 Speaker 5: you were feeling and what you had to go through 206 00:11:22,601 --> 00:11:27,681 Speaker 5: in those times, and all the brick walls, all the pushback, 207 00:11:28,121 --> 00:11:33,321 Speaker 5: all the rejection, all of the comments and the attitudes 208 00:11:33,361 --> 00:11:36,041 Speaker 5: that just didn't match what we were looking at and 209 00:11:36,081 --> 00:11:39,521 Speaker 5: what we're seeing, and particularly what you're seeing and your family. 210 00:11:40,441 --> 00:11:42,921 Speaker 1: Can you walk us through how and when? 211 00:11:42,961 --> 00:11:47,441 Speaker 5: You first became aware that a post mortem had been 212 00:11:47,721 --> 00:11:51,361 Speaker 5: conducted and signed off by the South Australian Coroner's Office 213 00:11:51,401 --> 00:11:52,641 Speaker 5: in May twenty twenty three. 214 00:11:53,281 --> 00:11:57,121 Speaker 3: So the first I heard about it was I received 215 00:11:57,121 --> 00:12:01,361 Speaker 3: a letter on the seventeenth of November twenty twenty five 216 00:12:02,201 --> 00:12:06,481 Speaker 3: saying that month's places been closed, the post mortem has 217 00:12:06,521 --> 00:12:09,921 Speaker 3: been handed to the birth, Death and Marriages for a 218 00:12:09,961 --> 00:12:12,561 Speaker 3: death certificate and if I wanted to copy of the 219 00:12:12,601 --> 00:12:17,521 Speaker 3: post mortem to contact the ESA Corner's office, and then 220 00:12:17,761 --> 00:12:22,121 Speaker 3: if I wanted the post mortem explained, then it was 221 00:12:22,241 --> 00:12:26,241 Speaker 3: up to me to book a GP's appointment and hope 222 00:12:26,241 --> 00:12:31,521 Speaker 3: that they knew the forensic pathology and skeletal remains testing 223 00:12:31,881 --> 00:12:33,801 Speaker 3: They were still in play in twenty twenty three. 224 00:12:34,281 --> 00:12:36,001 Speaker 4: So I've tried, I've. 225 00:12:35,881 --> 00:12:41,281 Speaker 3: Emailed them numerous times, tried calling, and finally got through 226 00:12:41,321 --> 00:12:45,401 Speaker 3: to them on the twenty third of January this year. 227 00:12:46,001 --> 00:12:49,161 Speaker 3: They sent me through the post mortem and while I 228 00:12:49,201 --> 00:12:51,001 Speaker 3: was talking to them at the same time, just to 229 00:12:51,041 --> 00:12:53,881 Speaker 3: confirm that I got the email, opened it up and 230 00:12:53,881 --> 00:12:58,401 Speaker 3: that's when I started looking at all of these inconsistencies 231 00:12:58,961 --> 00:13:01,801 Speaker 3: that has occurred. Like a date of death was the 232 00:13:01,881 --> 00:13:06,121 Speaker 3: fifth of December. It was like, but maemaille in Australia. 233 00:13:06,281 --> 00:13:08,401 Speaker 3: She got on a plane with dad on the fifth 234 00:13:08,401 --> 00:13:11,761 Speaker 3: of December to fly to Malaysia to start a holiday, 235 00:13:11,801 --> 00:13:14,081 Speaker 3: So how can you make that an official date of death. 236 00:13:14,641 --> 00:13:17,801 Speaker 3: That's the first time we got notified was twenty third 237 00:13:17,801 --> 00:13:21,201 Speaker 3: of January this year that a post mortem had been signed, 238 00:13:21,241 --> 00:13:24,241 Speaker 3: and the fact that it happened in twenty May twenty 239 00:13:24,281 --> 00:13:28,321 Speaker 3: twenty three, so they've been sitting on that for nearly 240 00:13:28,401 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 3: three years. 241 00:13:30,161 --> 00:13:33,601 Speaker 5: I noted too that the post mortem was described as 242 00:13:34,001 --> 00:13:38,721 Speaker 5: your mum being missing rather than being kidnapped. In your view, 243 00:13:39,161 --> 00:13:43,281 Speaker 5: what's the practical impact of that distinction on how her 244 00:13:43,321 --> 00:13:44,281 Speaker 5: case was handled? 245 00:13:45,241 --> 00:13:50,081 Speaker 3: So the mechanism of injury in the incident, it kind 246 00:13:50,081 --> 00:13:53,801 Speaker 3: of predicates how Again I'm not an expert in this, 247 00:13:53,961 --> 00:13:58,721 Speaker 3: but it definitely predicates or takes out the circumstantial evidence 248 00:13:58,761 --> 00:14:02,881 Speaker 3: that's been offered so far during the Corona inquest in Malaysia, 249 00:14:03,481 --> 00:14:08,281 Speaker 3: so they defined her cause of death as undetermined, whereas 250 00:14:08,361 --> 00:14:10,881 Speaker 3: if they would have actually looked like the official police 251 00:14:10,881 --> 00:14:13,601 Speaker 3: report that Dad put in was that she was kidnapped. 252 00:14:14,161 --> 00:14:19,041 Speaker 3: Everything else throughout this whole process of the Corona inquest 253 00:14:19,841 --> 00:14:24,041 Speaker 3: was Mum was kidnapped and we believe murdered. And again 254 00:14:24,081 --> 00:14:27,721 Speaker 3: there's so much circumstantial evidence, whether that's the marks on 255 00:14:27,841 --> 00:14:32,441 Speaker 3: Mum's remains, which the forensic scientists said that you know, 256 00:14:32,481 --> 00:14:35,281 Speaker 3: there's blank force trauma and a penetrating wound at or 257 00:14:35,281 --> 00:14:38,921 Speaker 3: around the time of her death. Again it's not definitive, 258 00:14:39,161 --> 00:14:41,961 Speaker 3: but if you go back and have a look at all, right, 259 00:14:42,001 --> 00:14:46,281 Speaker 3: well this is the circumstances that happened around her, then 260 00:14:46,681 --> 00:14:50,561 Speaker 3: there's a potential to have circumstantial evidence to say that 261 00:14:51,481 --> 00:14:55,241 Speaker 3: it was murder, Yeah, murdered by blunt force trauma with 262 00:14:55,321 --> 00:15:00,161 Speaker 3: a penetrating wound, or there's enough information there to then go, 263 00:15:00,241 --> 00:15:03,681 Speaker 3: you know what, we're close, let's do an inquest. And 264 00:15:03,721 --> 00:15:06,641 Speaker 3: that the whole purpose of the post mortem and bringing 265 00:15:06,721 --> 00:15:11,481 Speaker 3: Mun's remains home was myself and mister Pangalo, we were 266 00:15:11,521 --> 00:15:14,041 Speaker 3: just searching through like how can we get an inquest? 267 00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:17,161 Speaker 3: And we found a loophole that if we bring mums 268 00:15:17,161 --> 00:15:22,081 Speaker 3: remains home, the coroner has to do a cause of 269 00:15:22,121 --> 00:15:26,081 Speaker 3: death in order for us to bury her here in Australia. 270 00:15:26,601 --> 00:15:28,641 Speaker 3: So that was the reason or one of the reasons 271 00:15:28,641 --> 00:15:32,841 Speaker 3: why we also wanted to bring Mun's remains intact back here, 272 00:15:32,881 --> 00:15:35,481 Speaker 3: because we knew that they'd have to do a post 273 00:15:35,561 --> 00:15:38,401 Speaker 3: mortem and then that was a loopholder then try and 274 00:15:38,401 --> 00:15:41,401 Speaker 3: get a coronal inquest. So that's the whole reason why 275 00:15:41,481 --> 00:15:44,561 Speaker 3: this post mortem and eskeletal remains and stuff. We were 276 00:15:44,601 --> 00:15:48,201 Speaker 3: trying to lead it towards doing a coronal inquest held 277 00:15:48,321 --> 00:15:49,521 Speaker 3: in South Australia. 278 00:15:50,201 --> 00:15:52,881 Speaker 1: And so what's the update on that. 279 00:15:54,281 --> 00:15:56,841 Speaker 3: I still haven't heard that. So they basically shut it 280 00:15:56,881 --> 00:16:00,001 Speaker 3: down to say cases closed. And I wrote back a 281 00:16:00,041 --> 00:16:03,121 Speaker 3: massive email to say, you know what that how can 282 00:16:03,241 --> 00:16:06,121 Speaker 3: the family not be involved in all of this? So 283 00:16:06,161 --> 00:16:08,321 Speaker 3: we found out that through the office they said that 284 00:16:08,841 --> 00:16:12,281 Speaker 3: normally families aren't involved. They'll do a post mortem, they'll 285 00:16:12,281 --> 00:16:14,921 Speaker 3: send it off to birth deaths and marriages. But the 286 00:16:15,041 --> 00:16:19,121 Speaker 3: fact that we haven't been involved because it's an international case, 287 00:16:19,321 --> 00:16:21,361 Speaker 3: and I keep falling back on this legislation. It's like, 288 00:16:21,481 --> 00:16:24,241 Speaker 3: we can't do it because of legislation, et cetera, et cetera. 289 00:16:24,641 --> 00:16:28,081 Speaker 3: Legislation is there similar to the constitution. Is it's their 290 00:16:28,161 --> 00:16:31,841 Speaker 3: design to be able to evolve throughout the years when 291 00:16:32,001 --> 00:16:35,201 Speaker 3: things change, and the fact that the only time you're 292 00:16:35,241 --> 00:16:37,641 Speaker 3: going to get that change if someone brings it up 293 00:16:37,681 --> 00:16:39,721 Speaker 3: to go, this is a problem, we need to fix it, 294 00:16:39,841 --> 00:16:42,961 Speaker 3: and someone then has a courage to go, you know what, Yeah, 295 00:16:43,121 --> 00:16:45,281 Speaker 3: it does need fixing it and we can move forward. 296 00:16:45,681 --> 00:16:49,081 Speaker 3: The fact that there were so many inconsistencies with that 297 00:16:49,201 --> 00:16:52,921 Speaker 3: whole process, Like one, they relied on information from twenty 298 00:16:53,081 --> 00:16:56,481 Speaker 3: twenty two when I first did the submission to request 299 00:16:56,561 --> 00:17:00,001 Speaker 3: a coronal inquest from the Southustralian Coroner's Office to do 300 00:17:00,081 --> 00:17:03,921 Speaker 3: one here in Australia. That was kind of their basis 301 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 3: of what everything was predicated towards. Secondly, as part of 302 00:17:07,881 --> 00:17:10,801 Speaker 3: their legislation is they have to ask the South Australian 303 00:17:10,801 --> 00:17:13,601 Speaker 3: Police because it was conducted in South Australia, or we're 304 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,641 Speaker 3: asking the South Australian Coroner. The South Astralian Police, as 305 00:17:17,681 --> 00:17:20,921 Speaker 3: great as they are, they had no involvement in Mum's case. 306 00:17:20,961 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 3: They weren't part of the investigation. They're not part of 307 00:17:23,441 --> 00:17:28,481 Speaker 3: the Corona inquest nothing. So the information that they could 308 00:17:28,521 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 3: give them was minimum, but that's what they utilized because 309 00:17:31,921 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 3: it was legislation for them to ask the ESA police 310 00:17:34,561 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 3: and they can only go off what they say, and 311 00:17:36,681 --> 00:17:38,521 Speaker 3: it's like, well, there has to be some change to 312 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 3: go well, this is an international case. You should be 313 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 3: able to then reach out to, whether it's the Australian 314 00:17:44,201 --> 00:17:49,041 Speaker 3: High Commission or the international agency that's running that investigation, 315 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 3: whether that's Interpol, whether that's local police or their national police, 316 00:17:53,961 --> 00:17:57,321 Speaker 3: no matter what country it is. So we're still waiting 317 00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,041 Speaker 3: to hear back because I said, you've also given us 318 00:18:00,721 --> 00:18:05,561 Speaker 3: no opportunity to refute the wrong information in there, like 319 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: I said, day to death, mechanism of injury, and also 320 00:18:08,921 --> 00:18:11,401 Speaker 3: the fact that they just instantly said there wasn't enough 321 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 3: information to determine a cause of death. That to me 322 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 3: screens as though if there's not enough information. 323 00:18:18,761 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: Do more research. 324 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,921 Speaker 4: Yeah, anquest to get the information. 325 00:18:23,801 --> 00:18:24,961 Speaker 1: And just for clarity too. 326 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 5: There was an inquest over in Malaysia still ongoing right 327 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,961 Speaker 5: and we're trying to get an inquest in Australia just 328 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,321 Speaker 5: for clarity because I know we're throwing the word in 329 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 5: quest out and they're talking about not having an. 330 00:18:36,281 --> 00:18:37,921 Speaker 1: In quest, so that's the status. 331 00:18:37,921 --> 00:18:40,041 Speaker 5: So we've had one over in Malaysia which is still 332 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,961 Speaker 5: currently ongoing, not completed. And that's hard enough in itself, 333 00:18:44,041 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 5: right because you don't have an end in the or 334 00:18:46,681 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 5: a line in the sand with them. That's still just 335 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,321 Speaker 5: keeping you dangling along without going okay, well we've made 336 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,521 Speaker 5: a formal decision on this. I find that quite challenging 337 00:18:55,561 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 5: as well. And we talk sometimes about being in different 338 00:18:57,921 --> 00:19:01,001 Speaker 5: states within Australia. I can't even imagine the stress of 339 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,241 Speaker 5: hating to deal with and the cost. 340 00:19:03,441 --> 00:19:05,281 Speaker 1: Do you want to tell everyone? I mean, you're I've 341 00:19:05,281 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: spoken about it. 342 00:19:05,961 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 5: Tell everyone how much this investigation has cost you personally? 343 00:19:10,561 --> 00:19:13,201 Speaker 3: Yeah, so over the last eight years, I think we're 344 00:19:13,281 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: up to about one point four million dollars the legal 345 00:19:17,001 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 3: fees a through the roof, plus also you know the 346 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 3: flights having to do the search ourselves. I'd pay it 347 00:19:22,241 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 3: again in a heartbeat, but like, it is a costing 348 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 3: and you get no support from the Australian government. So 349 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: there is a clause for federal assistance for funding to 350 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 3: help with legal costs, but I got knocked back because 351 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: I still had a car, I still had access to 352 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 3: my superannuation, and so they didn't believe it met the 353 00:19:42,241 --> 00:19:45,041 Speaker 3: threshold for federal assistance. And it's like, well, what does 354 00:19:45,761 --> 00:19:49,321 Speaker 3: you get convicted drug killers? And that's the other thing 355 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:53,641 Speaker 3: that's frustrating is that federal support funding is set out 356 00:19:53,721 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: primarily for anyone. Well, this is the main reason that 357 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,281 Speaker 3: they've got it is anyone that's been found guilty and 358 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,281 Speaker 3: facing up to twenty or more years in an international 359 00:20:03,281 --> 00:20:04,721 Speaker 3: prison for drug charges. 360 00:20:05,321 --> 00:20:07,281 Speaker 4: So if one was a drug dealer and. 361 00:20:07,241 --> 00:20:10,801 Speaker 3: Got arrested overseas, the doors open up and then you 362 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,281 Speaker 3: get access to all of that funding, that support, etc. 363 00:20:14,681 --> 00:20:18,361 Speaker 3: Whereas being a victim of crime of a kidnapper, murder, 364 00:20:18,441 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 3: there is absolutely nothing in place at all. So we 365 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,281 Speaker 3: started the Malaysian inquest in twenty twenty one, so again 366 00:20:26,321 --> 00:20:29,721 Speaker 3: I had to fight hard just to get coronal inquest 367 00:20:29,801 --> 00:20:32,761 Speaker 3: into it. It was meant to only go for four days. 368 00:20:33,321 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 3: That dragged out to about two years, and it was 369 00:20:37,041 --> 00:20:39,241 Speaker 3: just a pr stunt, like I would fly over there, 370 00:20:39,281 --> 00:20:44,321 Speaker 3: and like flights, they would always change the dates or 371 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 3: cancel it right at the last minute. And if it 372 00:20:47,481 --> 00:20:49,721 Speaker 3: happens once or twice, you go, all right, that's cool, 373 00:20:50,281 --> 00:20:50,801 Speaker 3: it happens. 374 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 4: You can't do anything. 375 00:20:51,721 --> 00:20:54,641 Speaker 3: But the fact that nearly every single time it would 376 00:20:54,761 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 3: change started to be like, this is a tactic in 377 00:20:57,721 --> 00:21:01,041 Speaker 3: which they're trying to drain my funds because it's not 378 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 3: cheap to organize. The lawyers have flights, accommodation, have a vehicle. 379 00:21:05,801 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 3: Plus when I get over, I have to still do 380 00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 3: my own investigation because I know the police have stopped, 381 00:21:10,201 --> 00:21:12,761 Speaker 3: so I'd still be talking to people, still trying to 382 00:21:12,761 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 3: get media involved, et cetera, et cetera. 383 00:21:15,281 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 5: And you're having to take time off work, correct, you know, 384 00:21:18,561 --> 00:21:21,001 Speaker 5: and not to mention the mental health, Like, has anyone 385 00:21:21,041 --> 00:21:23,441 Speaker 5: ever stopped and said, are you okay? 386 00:21:23,761 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Are you guys okay? 387 00:21:24,921 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 5: Can we support you in any way, shape or form 388 00:21:27,241 --> 00:21:30,761 Speaker 5: for the trauma that you actually have endured in doing 389 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,161 Speaker 5: this yourselves? 390 00:21:32,281 --> 00:21:36,481 Speaker 3: Yeah, the friends and family, yes, anyone else outside of that. Note, 391 00:21:37,321 --> 00:21:40,961 Speaker 3: that's again something we're also trying to change. But where 392 00:21:41,041 --> 00:21:44,041 Speaker 3: Mum's case is at the moment. So mid last year 393 00:21:44,281 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 3: we managed to get a ruling that was kind of 394 00:21:47,441 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 3: in our favor for the inquest, so we were in 395 00:21:49,241 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: the High Court and the High Court Coroner said that 396 00:21:54,041 --> 00:21:59,241 Speaker 3: Mum's case was closed prematurely, it was wrongly classified and 397 00:21:59,681 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 3: further investigation needed. 398 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 4: To be done by the Malaysian police. That was great, 399 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:04,201 Speaker 4: and we. 400 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: Thought, sweet, there's another door that's kind of opened up 401 00:22:07,201 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 3: a little bit for us. So now let's form the 402 00:22:09,681 --> 00:22:13,161 Speaker 3: old wedge and let's drive in. Malaysian is trying to 403 00:22:13,201 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: shut it down. So she's the High Court judge. We 404 00:22:16,521 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: put in a request and that High Commission had a 405 00:22:18,481 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 3: meeting with the Malaysian Attorney General to go all right, well, 406 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 3: the High Court Judge has said this, and we were 407 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,881 Speaker 3: trying to push to go will they've requested that the 408 00:22:26,921 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: case be reinvestigated. He goes, no, shut it down straight away. 409 00:22:31,681 --> 00:22:34,681 Speaker 3: There's no reason. It was just it's a no from us. 410 00:22:35,321 --> 00:22:39,281 Speaker 3: So you go on against the court decision on reinvestigating 411 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,521 Speaker 3: Mum's case. Secondly, we appealed it because she said that 412 00:22:43,561 --> 00:22:48,041 Speaker 3: she couldn't overturn the decision. However, those things that I 413 00:22:48,201 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: just mentioned need to be looked at by the Malaysian Police, 414 00:22:51,481 --> 00:22:55,241 Speaker 3: the DPP and also the Malaysian Attorney General, which they've 415 00:22:55,241 --> 00:22:57,801 Speaker 3: all ignored. So I've taken it to the Supreme Court. 416 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 3: The court has changed four times now, so the High 417 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 3: Court coroner has to submit her decision on paper and 418 00:23:07,681 --> 00:23:10,561 Speaker 3: submitted to the courts to go to the Supreme Court. 419 00:23:11,001 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 3: So then the Supreme Court is three individual judges who 420 00:23:14,681 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 3: then look at the case and then it's kind of 421 00:23:16,801 --> 00:23:19,561 Speaker 3: like our last throw at the stumps for the inquest. 422 00:23:20,241 --> 00:23:24,241 Speaker 3: Four times she's failed to turn up to the court 423 00:23:24,241 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 3: hearing for her to hand in the submission. So I 424 00:23:27,481 --> 00:23:29,841 Speaker 3: got to pay the lawyers to do their work. 425 00:23:30,201 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: They turn up for the day. Yeah, they charge you 426 00:23:33,521 --> 00:23:34,041 Speaker 1: every time. 427 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,481 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, there's three to nine thousand dollars just dropped 428 00:23:37,481 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 3: in a hole because the Malaysian court system has just gone, well, okay. 429 00:23:43,961 --> 00:23:45,681 Speaker 4: We'll just we'll give you more time. 430 00:23:46,321 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: That's happened four times where she's just not shown up, 431 00:23:49,801 --> 00:23:53,041 Speaker 3: no excuse, no nothing, and it's like this is the 432 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:54,721 Speaker 3: court system where. 433 00:23:54,521 --> 00:23:57,481 Speaker 4: They should be able to like, I have to stick. 434 00:23:57,241 --> 00:24:00,801 Speaker 3: To the timelines and if I don't, like they've threatened 435 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,801 Speaker 3: me with the rest. I got summons to appear to 436 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 3: a court. It was in a totally different language. I 437 00:24:07,201 --> 00:24:09,281 Speaker 3: could translate it, or I can get Google Translate to 438 00:24:09,281 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 3: do it, but that's not one hundred percent correct. So 439 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 3: then I have to pay for someone to from the 440 00:24:13,721 --> 00:24:16,201 Speaker 3: courts to say what does this actually mean? And can 441 00:24:16,201 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: you explain it to me? How do I have not 442 00:24:18,041 --> 00:24:22,201 Speaker 3: turned up? A warrant for my arrest? Goes out, get 443 00:24:22,201 --> 00:24:25,161 Speaker 3: a high court judge doesn't hand in her submission which 444 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,761 Speaker 3: he's meant to do, which is part of the court process, 445 00:24:27,961 --> 00:24:30,201 Speaker 3: and that allows us to move to the next age. 446 00:24:30,561 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 3: Four times just doesn't turn up, and the court goes, 447 00:24:34,241 --> 00:24:37,241 Speaker 3: all right, we'll just give you another one month, another 448 00:24:37,281 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 3: two months, another three months, Grace. 449 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,721 Speaker 1: It's just outrageous. 450 00:24:42,441 --> 00:24:44,281 Speaker 5: You've got to look at it, Greg and go are 451 00:24:44,281 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 5: they just pushing you to your limits? Are they trying 452 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,481 Speaker 5: to just go well, keep pushing until. 453 00:24:50,201 --> 00:24:51,041 Speaker 1: They just go away? 454 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,201 Speaker 5: Because that's the easy option for us, because that's certainly 455 00:24:54,241 --> 00:24:57,801 Speaker 5: what it feels like when you go through these processes. 456 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,321 Speaker 1: And I mean, you are one tough guy and very. 457 00:25:02,201 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 5: Knowledgeable, and I take my hat off to you for 458 00:25:05,281 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 5: everything that you're doing. I wanted to ask you you 459 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 5: and I have chatted about this as well, and you 460 00:25:11,801 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 5: are asking for an official apology. What do you hope 461 00:25:14,921 --> 00:25:17,721 Speaker 5: that apology would look like? And why is it so important? 462 00:25:18,321 --> 00:25:23,281 Speaker 3: So the apology would love to get it, and it's 463 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 3: in a form of two things. One, it's not an 464 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,401 Speaker 3: apology to me or to the family. It's an apology 465 00:25:28,441 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 3: to mum for not giving her the respect that she 466 00:25:31,241 --> 00:25:34,241 Speaker 3: deserves and treating her like a person. They just treated 467 00:25:34,241 --> 00:25:37,561 Speaker 3: her like a nuisance and a number. So that's one 468 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,321 Speaker 3: thing that we're asking is for the coroner office. And again, 469 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,481 Speaker 3: like it's a potentially a facetious comment, but we want 470 00:25:44,521 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 3: them to, I guess, acknowledge that they've done mum wrong. Secondly, 471 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: the apology we want is for them to acknowledge that 472 00:25:52,801 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 3: they have a system that although it may function normally 473 00:25:57,201 --> 00:26:02,041 Speaker 3: for normal cases, it is not right for complex cases 474 00:26:02,201 --> 00:26:04,921 Speaker 3: like mums. And the apology we want is a chain 475 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 3: in the system where the family does get an opportunity 476 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:08,881 Speaker 3: to go right. 477 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,361 Speaker 4: Well, you put in a statement. I think I sent 478 00:26:11,441 --> 00:26:12,041 Speaker 4: you to the statement. 479 00:26:12,041 --> 00:26:15,801 Speaker 3: It's, however, many pages long, so it took us ages 480 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,321 Speaker 3: to write that down and get a timeline. 481 00:26:18,721 --> 00:26:19,441 Speaker 1: It's massive. 482 00:26:20,041 --> 00:26:22,481 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know, have printed the whole thing offps 483 00:26:22,561 --> 00:26:23,961 Speaker 5: like wow. 484 00:26:23,801 --> 00:26:26,641 Speaker 3: But that's only it that stops at twenty twenty two. 485 00:26:26,801 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 3: There's so much that's happened that's come out during the 486 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:34,081 Speaker 3: Corona inquest over the last nearly four years, that has 487 00:26:34,241 --> 00:26:37,561 Speaker 3: just been discounted because it didn't exist. 488 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:38,921 Speaker 4: And the fact that you. 489 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 3: Know, they sat on a post mortem, and this is 490 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,641 Speaker 3: what I mean about the disrespect to Mum. They sat 491 00:26:43,681 --> 00:26:45,561 Speaker 3: on a post mortem, and that's what they're going off 492 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 3: for the decision to not do any more investigation or 493 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 3: an inquest into the death. And the Australian citizen overseas 494 00:26:53,921 --> 00:26:56,961 Speaker 3: they can see it, whether it's media reports, whether they 495 00:26:57,001 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 3: read that document or they just give me a call. 496 00:26:59,801 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 3: They can clearly see the injustices that Mum has had 497 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,521 Speaker 3: for her case. I can guarantee it's not just Mum. 498 00:27:06,801 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 3: There would be so many other families caught up in 499 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,120 Speaker 3: this situation that just don't have the energy or the headspace. 500 00:27:13,721 --> 00:27:16,001 Speaker 4: To continually push for stuff like this. 501 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 3: And that's what we want to change, is like it's 502 00:27:18,441 --> 00:27:20,521 Speaker 3: all good and well to go the system shit, this 503 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 3: is terrible, et cetera, et cetera. But if we're not 504 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:24,921 Speaker 3: going to do something to try and change it, then 505 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,001 Speaker 3: Mum's kidnap a murder again just becomes another stat that 506 00:27:30,561 --> 00:27:33,801 Speaker 3: someone may look at in the future. Whereas what I'm 507 00:27:33,801 --> 00:27:36,281 Speaker 3: trying to do at the moment is actually go all right, well, 508 00:27:36,681 --> 00:27:41,121 Speaker 3: this is terrible, this is what happened previously, but this 509 00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:45,041 Speaker 3: is what we've done now, and the community we're actually 510 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,641 Speaker 3: creating whilst getting this change, like so many people are 511 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,321 Speaker 3: now coming out jumping on board and wanting to be 512 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:54,001 Speaker 3: involved and wanting to help because they can see that, 513 00:27:54,281 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 3: you know what, this system isn't like it's good, but 514 00:27:58,481 --> 00:28:05,401 Speaker 3: it's not great, and things can always as individuals, as businesses, asses, 515 00:28:05,521 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 3: et cetera, things can always be one percent better than 516 00:28:09,001 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 3: they were before. And that's kind of the mindset that 517 00:28:12,241 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 3: I'm trying to work on at the moment, is if 518 00:28:14,201 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: we can fix it so someone else doesn't have to 519 00:28:17,201 --> 00:28:20,401 Speaker 3: end up in the same position that we're at, then 520 00:28:20,681 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 3: that would be something that. 521 00:28:21,961 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 4: Mum would want. 522 00:28:24,281 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, it'd be a step forward in the right direction, 523 00:28:26,761 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 5: wouldn't it, And another family wouldn't have to go through 524 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,361 Speaker 5: the trauma of what you guys are going through. If 525 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,961 Speaker 5: you were, oh, if you had the opportunity, I guess, 526 00:28:36,001 --> 00:28:40,081 Speaker 5: to sit with a forensic liaison specialist from the coroner's office, 527 00:28:40,281 --> 00:28:43,281 Speaker 5: what three questions would you want answered about your mum's 528 00:28:43,281 --> 00:28:44,521 Speaker 5: post mortem? 529 00:28:45,001 --> 00:28:48,601 Speaker 4: First one, is why end it twenty twenty three? 530 00:28:49,321 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 7: Why not? 531 00:28:50,601 --> 00:28:56,281 Speaker 3: There's so many unanswered questions that led them to a 532 00:28:56,321 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: decision of cause of death undetermined? So why wouldn't you 533 00:29:01,521 --> 00:29:06,961 Speaker 3: as an organization, as an entity, and as an Australian agency, 534 00:29:07,241 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 3: why wouldn't you want the answers to help an Australian family. 535 00:29:12,481 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 3: Second one would be what will it take for us 536 00:29:16,521 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 3: to change legislation? What is it that we need? Like 537 00:29:20,241 --> 00:29:23,801 Speaker 3: I've written bills myself for the victims of CRIMAC, which 538 00:29:23,961 --> 00:29:27,081 Speaker 3: because I'm nobody within the political sphere, then it just 539 00:29:27,161 --> 00:29:29,361 Speaker 3: gets basically pushed to one side. 540 00:29:29,121 --> 00:29:30,841 Speaker 4: And I've probably only have the two. 541 00:29:30,881 --> 00:29:33,361 Speaker 3: It's like the first one about the post mortem and 542 00:29:33,401 --> 00:29:35,121 Speaker 3: who is it that I can speak to that can 543 00:29:35,161 --> 00:29:38,881 Speaker 3: actually make a change to these policies, legislations and procedures 544 00:29:39,441 --> 00:29:44,561 Speaker 3: that have more involvement I guess, of the holistic approach 545 00:29:44,681 --> 00:29:47,601 Speaker 3: rather than this is what we've got, point A, point B. 546 00:29:47,961 --> 00:29:49,321 Speaker 4: Let's close it, let's move on. 547 00:29:49,561 --> 00:29:52,881 Speaker 3: And I fully understand, as much as I guess I'm 548 00:29:52,921 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 3: speaking negatively about them, I also fully understand that they 549 00:29:56,481 --> 00:30:00,121 Speaker 3: are bound by legislation, and they are bound by minimal manning, 550 00:30:00,401 --> 00:30:03,281 Speaker 3: and they don't have the capacity to do things such 551 00:30:03,321 --> 00:30:08,161 Speaker 3: as like something basic explaining these goaletal remains report or 552 00:30:08,201 --> 00:30:09,241 Speaker 3: a post mortem. 553 00:30:08,961 --> 00:30:09,561 Speaker 4: To a family. 554 00:30:09,801 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 5: Well, sending you to a GP correct to say, oh, 555 00:30:14,041 --> 00:30:15,841 Speaker 5: you need to go and book an appointment with your 556 00:30:16,041 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 5: general practitioner who is not an expert I would hazard 557 00:30:20,001 --> 00:30:24,041 Speaker 5: a guess in a post mortem report. And because they 558 00:30:24,081 --> 00:30:26,281 Speaker 5: wouldn't take the time to sit with you and your 559 00:30:26,321 --> 00:30:29,921 Speaker 5: family and explain the post mortem report, sending you to 560 00:30:30,041 --> 00:30:33,841 Speaker 5: the GP is just outrageous, yeah, in my personal opinion, 561 00:30:33,881 --> 00:30:36,721 Speaker 5: and it just shows a lack of care correct, and 562 00:30:36,761 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 5: a lack of empathy about what you guys are going through. Yeah, 563 00:30:41,481 --> 00:30:44,801 Speaker 5: so that needs to change. That's something that definitely needs consideration. 564 00:30:45,401 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 565 00:30:46,041 --> 00:30:49,561 Speaker 3: And also by sitting with someone from that department and 566 00:30:49,601 --> 00:30:52,361 Speaker 3: again or just want to make it fully clear, like 567 00:30:52,401 --> 00:30:54,801 Speaker 3: I understand that they don't have demanding to do it. 568 00:30:55,321 --> 00:30:56,681 Speaker 4: That's a higher level thing. 569 00:30:57,161 --> 00:31:01,401 Speaker 3: But it also by having someone explain it from that office, 570 00:31:01,601 --> 00:31:05,321 Speaker 3: it contextualizes the reasons why they came up with that. 571 00:31:05,361 --> 00:31:07,801 Speaker 3: So anyone can I can get that report and put 572 00:31:07,801 --> 00:31:11,321 Speaker 3: it onto chat GPT and say explain this to me 573 00:31:11,361 --> 00:31:15,081 Speaker 3: and they can go this, this and this, But how 574 00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:17,641 Speaker 3: did you get to that point, what is the reasoning 575 00:31:17,681 --> 00:31:20,241 Speaker 3: behind that? Because as a family member who's stressed, who's 576 00:31:20,241 --> 00:31:21,921 Speaker 3: got a lot of things going on through their mind, 577 00:31:22,241 --> 00:31:25,921 Speaker 3: who pretty much have tunnel vision to go, I can't 578 00:31:25,961 --> 00:31:29,481 Speaker 3: believe you come up with undetermined because I know it's 579 00:31:29,521 --> 00:31:31,681 Speaker 3: kidnapper murder, you know what I mean. But you can 580 00:31:31,721 --> 00:31:35,001 Speaker 3: textualize it to say, well, this is the reasons why. 581 00:31:35,521 --> 00:31:37,801 Speaker 4: And it's like, well, watch your next step, you know 582 00:31:37,841 --> 00:31:38,201 Speaker 4: what I mean. 583 00:31:38,201 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 3: Like we've lost that ability to have that empathy in 584 00:31:40,521 --> 00:31:43,761 Speaker 3: the human side because we're bound by legislation, we're bound 585 00:31:43,761 --> 00:31:46,361 Speaker 3: by manning and just don't have the capacity to be 586 00:31:46,441 --> 00:31:48,201 Speaker 3: able to take. 587 00:31:48,041 --> 00:31:49,121 Speaker 4: That on board. 588 00:31:51,201 --> 00:31:54,561 Speaker 5: And a lack of funding, yeah, you know, like there 589 00:31:54,601 --> 00:31:58,601 Speaker 5: should have been something in place, my personal opinion, to 590 00:31:58,681 --> 00:32:02,441 Speaker 5: help you bring your mum's remains home back into Australia. She's, 591 00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 5: as I said, Australian citizen. Why those things being missed? 592 00:32:06,641 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 5: And you know, I hate to compare other cases, but 593 00:32:10,121 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 5: you know, there's been a lot of news about people 594 00:32:13,241 --> 00:32:17,321 Speaker 5: passing away skiing of recent times in Japan and you 595 00:32:17,401 --> 00:32:20,561 Speaker 5: see on the news and they're instantly everyone's coming in 596 00:32:20,601 --> 00:32:24,041 Speaker 5: to act immediately to help support the family and help 597 00:32:24,081 --> 00:32:27,121 Speaker 5: bring those people back to Australia and look after them 598 00:32:27,161 --> 00:32:29,561 Speaker 5: and care for them. I'm like, what is the difference here, Like, 599 00:32:29,641 --> 00:32:33,641 Speaker 5: why is that different for this story versus something like that. 600 00:32:34,081 --> 00:32:37,361 Speaker 5: I think everybody should be treated equally and every case 601 00:32:37,401 --> 00:32:41,681 Speaker 5: should be absolutely treated with the utmost care and respect. 602 00:32:42,801 --> 00:32:46,561 Speaker 5: These are human beings that we're talking about. What does 603 00:32:46,761 --> 00:32:48,681 Speaker 5: justice look like for you and your family? 604 00:32:51,441 --> 00:32:51,801 Speaker 4: Justice? 605 00:32:52,001 --> 00:32:54,801 Speaker 1: That's probably hard, Yeah, it is my question. 606 00:32:55,201 --> 00:32:59,561 Speaker 3: So justice in Malaysia doesn't exist flat out. Like I've 607 00:32:59,561 --> 00:33:03,801 Speaker 3: said this before, it's how deep your pockets will be, 608 00:33:03,881 --> 00:33:06,761 Speaker 3: how deep that can go and what I mean by that. 609 00:33:07,161 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 3: So I'm running two court cases at the moment. So 610 00:33:10,041 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 3: one is a civil action against the negligence against the 611 00:33:12,521 --> 00:33:15,961 Speaker 3: Malaysian Police, the Malaysian Government, the Home Affairs Minister, the 612 00:33:16,001 --> 00:33:21,321 Speaker 3: Attorney General and the developer in conjunction with the Corona inquest. 613 00:33:21,801 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: Like I said, I wish I had deep pockets to 614 00:33:24,321 --> 00:33:27,121 Speaker 3: be able to basically go, you know what, I can 615 00:33:27,201 --> 00:33:31,361 Speaker 3: afford to do this? And that's what these big corporations 616 00:33:31,401 --> 00:33:33,401 Speaker 3: like the Jaya Group is doing, like the government is 617 00:33:33,441 --> 00:33:37,281 Speaker 3: doing over in Malaysia, is they've got endless amounts of 618 00:33:37,281 --> 00:33:40,321 Speaker 3: money that they can just throw and like for me, 619 00:33:42,001 --> 00:33:44,681 Speaker 3: I was telling you earlier on so one of the cases, 620 00:33:44,721 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: I got fined because Mums should have put in the 621 00:33:47,481 --> 00:33:51,041 Speaker 3: negligence claim against the police, the government, etc. Not me, 622 00:33:51,601 --> 00:33:53,361 Speaker 3: because she's the representative in it. 623 00:33:54,241 --> 00:33:57,361 Speaker 5: And just for clarity, we were talking about this before 624 00:33:57,361 --> 00:34:00,281 Speaker 5: we jumped on to start recording, and I just said, 625 00:34:00,321 --> 00:34:02,521 Speaker 5: hang on a minute, are you meaning that your mum, 626 00:34:03,121 --> 00:34:05,921 Speaker 5: after she passed away, was suppose to be the one 627 00:34:06,001 --> 00:34:08,801 Speaker 5: to put the So explain that to everybody, because that 628 00:34:08,921 --> 00:34:10,321 Speaker 5: is actually wild in itself. 629 00:34:10,361 --> 00:34:14,641 Speaker 3: Again yeah, so again, please don't try and make sense 630 00:34:14,681 --> 00:34:17,881 Speaker 3: of this because it doesn't make sense. So, following the 631 00:34:18,001 --> 00:34:21,881 Speaker 3: discovery of Mum's remains and the incompetence levels the negligence 632 00:34:21,881 --> 00:34:25,321 Speaker 3: of Mum's case from some of the Malaysian authorities, put 633 00:34:25,361 --> 00:34:28,441 Speaker 3: in a civil claim for negligence. 634 00:34:29,481 --> 00:34:30,561 Speaker 4: I got fined. 635 00:34:30,921 --> 00:34:33,121 Speaker 3: It was something like two hundred and nine about two 636 00:34:33,201 --> 00:34:36,761 Speaker 3: hundred and nine thousand, because Mums should have put in 637 00:34:37,281 --> 00:34:40,721 Speaker 3: the negligence claim, not me, because she's the one that's 638 00:34:40,721 --> 00:34:44,801 Speaker 3: claiming negligence. And I said, that's just ridiculous. So I 639 00:34:44,841 --> 00:34:47,601 Speaker 3: then put in an appeal. When I put the appeal in, 640 00:34:48,121 --> 00:34:50,081 Speaker 3: I got hit with another sixty seven and a half 641 00:34:50,161 --> 00:34:53,441 Speaker 3: thousand dollars fine, because again mums should have put the 642 00:34:53,441 --> 00:34:58,761 Speaker 3: appeal in not me, and like this whole system like 643 00:34:58,801 --> 00:35:01,481 Speaker 3: if we ever wrote a book, I wouldn't know what 644 00:35:01,561 --> 00:35:03,561 Speaker 3: category to put it under because you read it and 645 00:35:03,561 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 3: as this is it's comical, this is like, it's just. 646 00:35:07,401 --> 00:35:08,801 Speaker 1: So, it's just fascical. 647 00:35:08,921 --> 00:35:12,001 Speaker 5: You just can't even fathom that this is actually like 648 00:35:12,041 --> 00:35:13,321 Speaker 5: what's happening, like I. 649 00:35:13,521 --> 00:35:15,601 Speaker 4: But then do you put it in fiction and nonfiction? 650 00:35:15,801 --> 00:35:16,041 Speaker 6: Is it? 651 00:35:16,481 --> 00:35:16,681 Speaker 1: Yeah? 652 00:35:16,801 --> 00:35:19,081 Speaker 3: Is it fantasy? Because there's so many things that you 653 00:35:19,121 --> 00:35:20,801 Speaker 3: think this has got to be made up. There's no 654 00:35:20,841 --> 00:35:23,201 Speaker 3: way that this has a curved But then, like I said, 655 00:35:23,201 --> 00:35:25,321 Speaker 3: with everything that I'm trying to bring out at the moment, 656 00:35:25,361 --> 00:35:28,041 Speaker 3: I've got the factual evidence to support it, whether that's 657 00:35:28,081 --> 00:35:31,801 Speaker 3: court transcripts, whether that's WhatsApp messages. It's one thing I 658 00:35:31,841 --> 00:35:36,321 Speaker 3: don't think the Malaysian police or authorities realize that I do, 659 00:35:36,521 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 3: is I document everything right from when Mom and Dad 660 00:35:39,481 --> 00:35:41,921 Speaker 3: went to Malaysia on the fifth of December. I've got 661 00:35:41,921 --> 00:35:46,081 Speaker 3: a massive spreadsheet which documents every single day they went missing, 662 00:35:46,121 --> 00:35:49,881 Speaker 3: and I've broken it up into not the authorities, done media, 663 00:35:50,321 --> 00:35:54,201 Speaker 3: the police, action, Australian High Commission action, what we've done 664 00:35:54,241 --> 00:35:57,721 Speaker 3: as a family, possible sightings, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, 665 00:35:57,801 --> 00:36:01,201 Speaker 3: it just it just blows your mind. But the more 666 00:36:01,481 --> 00:36:04,721 Speaker 3: you scratch at the surface, the more it just opens 667 00:36:04,801 --> 00:36:06,561 Speaker 3: up to go. You know what, it's not just wrong 668 00:36:06,601 --> 00:36:11,321 Speaker 3: for mum, but you know, procedurally, both Australian and Malaysian 669 00:36:11,361 --> 00:36:14,801 Speaker 3: authorities have got a lot of things to answer for 670 00:36:15,121 --> 00:36:18,161 Speaker 3: on how can we let an Australian citizen or a 671 00:36:18,201 --> 00:36:22,321 Speaker 3: foreigner get to this stage with all of these things 672 00:36:22,321 --> 00:36:25,841 Speaker 3: that that that's that's happened along the way, and more importantly, 673 00:36:25,841 --> 00:36:28,081 Speaker 3: what is it that we can do to make sure 674 00:36:28,121 --> 00:36:31,321 Speaker 3: that you know, we we not let this this happen again. 675 00:36:32,921 --> 00:36:35,681 Speaker 1: Well, I just think you're an absolute legend. 676 00:36:36,401 --> 00:36:36,601 Speaker 6: You know. 677 00:36:36,641 --> 00:36:39,401 Speaker 5: Big hugs to you and to Jen and your family 678 00:36:39,761 --> 00:36:42,281 Speaker 5: while you're in this fight fight of your life. Really, 679 00:36:42,361 --> 00:36:45,561 Speaker 5: isn't it for justice as to what's happened to your mum? 680 00:36:45,641 --> 00:36:45,881 Speaker 1: Manna? 681 00:36:46,161 --> 00:36:48,561 Speaker 5: Well on this precious day too, Like I feel really 682 00:36:48,561 --> 00:36:50,161 Speaker 5: privileged to be able to talk to you on our 683 00:36:50,201 --> 00:36:51,041 Speaker 5: birthday as well. 684 00:36:51,321 --> 00:36:52,201 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you. 685 00:36:52,841 --> 00:36:56,681 Speaker 5: What would you like our listeners to take away from 686 00:36:56,921 --> 00:37:01,321 Speaker 5: your family's journey both emotionally and in terms of practical lessons. 687 00:37:01,761 --> 00:37:03,761 Speaker 3: So again, thank you so much for your for your 688 00:37:03,761 --> 00:37:06,721 Speaker 3: time as well, and for letting us have the ability, 689 00:37:06,881 --> 00:37:09,321 Speaker 3: like I said, to give mom a voice, especially on 690 00:37:10,001 --> 00:37:13,121 Speaker 3: her birthday, Like it couldn't have lined up any more 691 00:37:13,161 --> 00:37:17,281 Speaker 3: perfect with someone like yourself and everything that you guys 692 00:37:17,321 --> 00:37:20,161 Speaker 3: are doing for people like us, You give us that 693 00:37:20,641 --> 00:37:23,321 Speaker 3: megaphone for us to be able to have a voice, 694 00:37:23,881 --> 00:37:26,921 Speaker 3: where there's so many times throughing this we feel as 695 00:37:26,921 --> 00:37:30,201 Speaker 3: though we're just constantly pushed down and told, you know, 696 00:37:30,281 --> 00:37:32,561 Speaker 3: shut up or don't make waves, like I did a 697 00:37:32,601 --> 00:37:36,161 Speaker 3: TikTok which called out the Malaysian Prime minister. I think 698 00:37:36,161 --> 00:37:38,441 Speaker 3: it was about eleven times deveaud have asked me to 699 00:37:38,481 --> 00:37:42,561 Speaker 3: take it down because it could upset the Malaysian government. 700 00:37:43,001 --> 00:37:46,521 Speaker 3: Like every time we try and get a voice somewhere, 701 00:37:47,121 --> 00:37:49,601 Speaker 3: someone tries to take it away from it. So the 702 00:37:49,681 --> 00:37:53,241 Speaker 3: fact that people like yourselves do these types of things 703 00:37:53,521 --> 00:37:56,641 Speaker 3: is like I cannot thank you, you know, from and 704 00:37:56,681 --> 00:37:58,921 Speaker 3: not just from me and my sister and our family, 705 00:37:58,961 --> 00:38:03,321 Speaker 3: but formum like without you guys, those victims of crime, 706 00:38:03,441 --> 00:38:07,321 Speaker 3: those missing persons don't have a So thank you for that, 707 00:38:07,361 --> 00:38:10,521 Speaker 3: for all that you do in terms of the listeners, 708 00:38:11,081 --> 00:38:13,201 Speaker 3: I guess I want to throw out there just primarily 709 00:38:13,721 --> 00:38:16,801 Speaker 3: if anyone knows of anyone that's been a victim of 710 00:38:16,841 --> 00:38:19,401 Speaker 3: crime or a missing person, if they ever want to 711 00:38:19,441 --> 00:38:22,601 Speaker 3: reach out and have a chat what I do in 712 00:38:22,681 --> 00:38:25,761 Speaker 3: the background as well. So other than trying to help 713 00:38:25,801 --> 00:38:30,001 Speaker 3: out other charities and not for profits, I also if 714 00:38:30,001 --> 00:38:32,401 Speaker 3: I see something on social media, I'll try and reach 715 00:38:32,441 --> 00:38:35,521 Speaker 3: out to the family and just offer support. So a 716 00:38:35,641 --> 00:38:38,721 Speaker 3: key friendship that I've built is Liscinda and Britney Fisk, 717 00:38:39,121 --> 00:38:43,041 Speaker 3: as well as their mark Sandra Fis, their father, David Fisk, 718 00:38:43,521 --> 00:38:46,881 Speaker 3: his partner, and his partner's daughter were bounegager murdered in 719 00:38:46,921 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 3: their hotel room and the Philippines last year. So I've 720 00:38:51,001 --> 00:38:54,041 Speaker 3: been reaching out to them and then trying to utilize 721 00:38:54,041 --> 00:38:57,081 Speaker 3: what I've gone through with mums case. And obviously Mums 722 00:38:57,081 --> 00:39:00,121 Speaker 3: is a complex and fairly unique case, but you could 723 00:39:00,121 --> 00:39:04,081 Speaker 3: almost template you know, the response from Defat, the response 724 00:39:04,121 --> 00:39:08,241 Speaker 3: from their High Commission of the Embassies, the response from media, etc. 725 00:39:08,281 --> 00:39:12,521 Speaker 3: You can template that across pretty much every single victim 726 00:39:12,601 --> 00:39:17,121 Speaker 3: chrome a missing person's case that's happened in Australia and overseas, 727 00:39:17,681 --> 00:39:19,881 Speaker 3: just be reaching out to them to then also give 728 00:39:19,921 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 3: them an opportunity to have a safe I guess safe 729 00:39:23,961 --> 00:39:27,761 Speaker 3: space to go just meant or ask for advice to go. 730 00:39:27,881 --> 00:39:30,281 Speaker 3: This is what I dealt with. These are some options. 731 00:39:30,721 --> 00:39:33,521 Speaker 3: It's non binding. It's just this is what happened, and 732 00:39:33,561 --> 00:39:35,161 Speaker 3: it just gives them a little bit of a heads up. 733 00:39:35,201 --> 00:39:39,961 Speaker 3: And especially dealing early on with DEFA, you have to 734 00:39:40,001 --> 00:39:43,641 Speaker 3: be prepared to be disappointed and not expect a lot, 735 00:39:43,921 --> 00:39:46,601 Speaker 3: which I hate saying, but that's the reality of the 736 00:39:46,641 --> 00:39:47,441 Speaker 3: truth of that. 737 00:39:47,761 --> 00:39:51,041 Speaker 5: So well, it comes down to lived experience, doesn't it. 738 00:39:51,081 --> 00:39:53,881 Speaker 5: Like you have lived experience in this space. And I 739 00:39:53,921 --> 00:39:56,121 Speaker 5: know that when you were talking at the Leave a 740 00:39:56,201 --> 00:39:58,481 Speaker 5: Light On event, you were talking about how you're helping 741 00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:02,881 Speaker 5: other families who find themselves with a situation overseas, and 742 00:40:02,961 --> 00:40:05,961 Speaker 5: you have that experience. Now you've been living it yourself 743 00:40:06,561 --> 00:40:10,041 Speaker 5: for you know, a long time, like over three thousand days. 744 00:40:10,361 --> 00:40:13,281 Speaker 5: You know, there's there's a lot in that I think 745 00:40:13,561 --> 00:40:16,641 Speaker 5: to help other people, and I guess I'm trying to 746 00:40:16,681 --> 00:40:20,121 Speaker 5: do a similar thing in this space as well, just saying, 747 00:40:20,161 --> 00:40:23,281 Speaker 5: you know, my mum's been missing twenty nine years this year. 748 00:40:24,801 --> 00:40:26,321 Speaker 1: I have a lot of experience. 749 00:40:26,401 --> 00:40:28,321 Speaker 5: Now I have a lot behind me of what I've 750 00:40:28,321 --> 00:40:31,401 Speaker 5: had to deal with, and it's not always just about 751 00:40:31,521 --> 00:40:34,641 Speaker 5: you know, hating on the negative or you know, talking. 752 00:40:34,441 --> 00:40:35,481 Speaker 1: About the problems. 753 00:40:35,521 --> 00:40:38,681 Speaker 5: It's actually just making people aware of things that happen, 754 00:40:38,881 --> 00:40:39,841 Speaker 5: what they can do. 755 00:40:40,481 --> 00:40:42,161 Speaker 1: Like I didn't know a lot of these things. 756 00:40:42,161 --> 00:40:45,121 Speaker 5: I sort of had to fumble myself through similarly to 757 00:40:45,241 --> 00:40:47,681 Speaker 5: what you have done. And I guess that's why I 758 00:40:47,681 --> 00:40:50,641 Speaker 5: wanted to invite you on because your mum was missing 759 00:40:50,761 --> 00:40:53,961 Speaker 5: to you. She was missing for nine hundred and fourteen days, 760 00:40:54,761 --> 00:40:58,761 Speaker 5: and then miraculously you got a message in a WhatsApp 761 00:40:59,041 --> 00:41:02,881 Speaker 5: which led you down a completely different path. Your dad 762 00:41:02,961 --> 00:41:05,881 Speaker 5: and your family always felt by that far call, which 763 00:41:06,481 --> 00:41:08,841 Speaker 5: I don't feel like when I've read everything that there's 764 00:41:08,841 --> 00:41:12,281 Speaker 5: been a lot of weight put on that by authorities 765 00:41:12,321 --> 00:41:15,921 Speaker 5: to go. Your mum rang your dad and said she 766 00:41:16,081 --> 00:41:20,761 Speaker 5: had a scared feeling about what she was experiencing and 767 00:41:21,121 --> 00:41:26,361 Speaker 5: that someone was trying to kidnap her, yes, essentially, and 768 00:41:26,441 --> 00:41:30,681 Speaker 5: I just feel like that is devastating that they haven't 769 00:41:30,681 --> 00:41:33,681 Speaker 5: really taken that on board. And you're in this position 770 00:41:33,801 --> 00:41:37,001 Speaker 5: still so many, so many weeks and days and months 771 00:41:37,001 --> 00:41:40,161 Speaker 5: after the event and to lose your mum, you know, 772 00:41:40,201 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 5: at the end of the day, that's the key part 773 00:41:42,481 --> 00:41:44,801 Speaker 5: of this. She's gone, She's not as you said. She 774 00:41:44,961 --> 00:41:48,841 Speaker 5: makes delicious food and she would normally celebrate her birthday 775 00:41:48,921 --> 00:41:49,481 Speaker 5: with you guys. 776 00:41:49,521 --> 00:41:51,441 Speaker 1: And you're finding. 777 00:41:51,041 --> 00:41:54,601 Speaker 5: Yourself over in bag Dad working to try and help 778 00:41:55,041 --> 00:41:57,921 Speaker 5: fund what you need to do to keep pushing through. 779 00:41:58,081 --> 00:42:01,961 Speaker 1: So lots of love to you. I do want to ask. 780 00:42:02,121 --> 00:42:04,521 Speaker 5: I ask all my guests on the podcast if they 781 00:42:04,561 --> 00:42:07,241 Speaker 5: can tell us about their missing love one and why 782 00:42:07,241 --> 00:42:09,881 Speaker 5: they matter. Can you tell us why Ani matters? 783 00:42:11,081 --> 00:42:13,201 Speaker 3: I guess everyone will tell you, like you know, the 784 00:42:13,881 --> 00:42:18,641 Speaker 3: individuality of the person. And my mum dedicated her whole 785 00:42:18,681 --> 00:42:23,041 Speaker 3: life to helping others in Adelaide should be helping out homeless. 786 00:42:23,081 --> 00:42:24,841 Speaker 4: She would help refugee. 787 00:42:24,881 --> 00:42:27,281 Speaker 3: She rented a house and it was like a safe 788 00:42:27,321 --> 00:42:30,241 Speaker 3: space for anyone that needed a roof over their head, 789 00:42:30,321 --> 00:42:33,281 Speaker 3: or needed food or needed looking after, they could come 790 00:42:33,321 --> 00:42:36,121 Speaker 3: to this place and then just basically take a load off. 791 00:42:36,161 --> 00:42:39,081 Speaker 4: And that was the kind of person that she was and. 792 00:42:39,681 --> 00:42:44,281 Speaker 3: Doesn't deserve and no one does doesn't deserve what she's 793 00:42:44,481 --> 00:42:48,001 Speaker 3: had to endure. Firstly, you being kidnapped and murdered and 794 00:42:48,481 --> 00:42:52,681 Speaker 3: losing that position of safety within yourself, like just mining 795 00:42:52,681 --> 00:42:56,201 Speaker 3: her own business and then being caught up in something 796 00:42:56,241 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 3: completely outside of her control and had no business being 797 00:42:59,521 --> 00:43:02,201 Speaker 3: there but then got caught up in it. And then 798 00:43:02,921 --> 00:43:06,201 Speaker 3: the amount of times that she's been let down over 799 00:43:06,241 --> 00:43:09,281 Speaker 3: the years. She matters to us and on a bigger 800 00:43:09,321 --> 00:43:13,641 Speaker 3: picture holistically, she matters to making sure that she's not 801 00:43:13,881 --> 00:43:17,161 Speaker 3: just a statistic and a number on a sheet of 802 00:43:17,201 --> 00:43:18,961 Speaker 3: paper that no one gives a shit about. 803 00:43:19,681 --> 00:43:20,641 Speaker 4: That's why Mum. 804 00:43:20,481 --> 00:43:23,961 Speaker 3: Matters is because this is bigger than Mum herself, and 805 00:43:24,041 --> 00:43:28,481 Speaker 3: she's just through you know, even after passing, she's changing 806 00:43:28,521 --> 00:43:32,241 Speaker 3: so many lives with her story as soon as people 807 00:43:32,321 --> 00:43:32,601 Speaker 3: hear it. 808 00:43:32,641 --> 00:43:34,121 Speaker 4: Like I said, I put. 809 00:43:34,001 --> 00:43:37,721 Speaker 3: Up a TikTok and it's up to seven hundred thousand 810 00:43:37,801 --> 00:43:43,161 Speaker 3: views and like thirty forty thousand odd comments of people 811 00:43:43,361 --> 00:43:44,921 Speaker 3: just hearing Mum's story to go. 812 00:43:45,081 --> 00:43:46,881 Speaker 4: This is outrageous. 813 00:43:47,281 --> 00:43:50,721 Speaker 3: She matters because she's changing people's lives and giving them 814 00:43:50,721 --> 00:43:53,521 Speaker 3: firstly knowledge, giving them a safe space to go. 815 00:43:53,681 --> 00:43:56,201 Speaker 4: You know, this is what could happen in the world. 816 00:43:56,241 --> 00:43:58,241 Speaker 3: So you know, there's people that refuse to go to 817 00:43:58,281 --> 00:44:01,401 Speaker 3: Malaysia because of Mum and what she's gone through so 818 00:44:02,161 --> 00:44:05,801 Speaker 3: holistically she's changed in the world. I guess on the 819 00:44:05,881 --> 00:44:09,361 Speaker 3: journey with her to try and to try and continue 820 00:44:09,401 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 3: what she did when she was alive to what she's 821 00:44:12,041 --> 00:44:12,641 Speaker 3: doing now. 822 00:44:13,721 --> 00:44:15,601 Speaker 1: She sounds like a very special lady. 823 00:44:17,001 --> 00:44:23,321 Speaker 2: Definitely next week on the missing matter. 824 00:44:25,361 --> 00:44:31,121 Speaker 7: I didn't know anything about that until the police informed me. 825 00:44:32,041 --> 00:44:35,961 Speaker 7: My ex husband didn't let me know that Lisal was 826 00:44:36,041 --> 00:44:40,521 Speaker 7: missing until three to four weeks after she had actually 827 00:44:40,521 --> 00:44:41,081 Speaker 7: gone missing. 828 00:44:43,161 --> 00:44:44,241 Speaker 4: I was there for Lisel. 829 00:44:45,401 --> 00:44:46,801 Speaker 1: Somebody had to be there for. 830 00:44:46,681 --> 00:44:51,801 Speaker 6: Her, and I did notice that there was nobody there 831 00:44:51,841 --> 00:44:54,161 Speaker 6: for him. 832 00:44:54,361 --> 00:44:56,441 Speaker 1: He could no longer do this to anybody else. 833 00:44:57,001 --> 00:45:01,361 Speaker 6: But how how dare he not only took my daughter, 834 00:45:01,961 --> 00:45:05,121 Speaker 6: but he's left us with nothing? E