1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:15,841 Speaker 1: Appoche production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm 2 00:00:15,881 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: your host Adam Shand. I met Tom Mackeye in two 3 00:00:18,881 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: thousand and eight during a moral panic about outlaw bikers 4 00:00:22,001 --> 00:00:23,801 Speaker 1: in South Australia. 5 00:00:23,161 --> 00:00:25,561 Speaker 2: As part of the government crackdown. The Pinks were the 6 00:00:25,641 --> 00:00:28,041 Speaker 2: first biker club in the country to be declared a 7 00:00:28,041 --> 00:00:29,241 Speaker 2: criminal organization. 8 00:00:30,041 --> 00:00:33,721 Speaker 1: Then Premier Mike Ran had enacted anti association laws he 9 00:00:33,801 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: believed would destroy the clubs. South Australian Premier Mike Ran 10 00:00:38,001 --> 00:00:41,121 Speaker 1: introduced the Serious and Organized Crime Act, which he described 11 00:00:41,161 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: as the world's toughest anti bike laws. Tom and his 12 00:00:46,081 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: brother Perry had founded the Descendants club back in the 13 00:00:48,961 --> 00:00:52,961 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. They'd come from New Zealand as teenagers with 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,681 Speaker 1: the spirit of rebellion. The club survived a crackdown by 15 00:00:56,721 --> 00:00:59,441 Speaker 1: police in the seventies, but several members fell into the 16 00:00:59,481 --> 00:01:03,321 Speaker 1: drug trade and ended up in prison, including Tom, Hiding 17 00:01:03,361 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: and Plainside. 18 00:01:04,281 --> 00:01:08,801 Speaker 3: Police said storefront was a bikei club house used. 19 00:01:08,521 --> 00:01:12,761 Speaker 1: By members of the Outland motorcycle gang the Descendants. He 20 00:01:12,801 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: emerged determined to return the club to its freedom seeking roots. 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: When Ran tried to ban the clubs, Tom and other 22 00:01:19,721 --> 00:01:22,001 Speaker 1: bike has got together to challenge the laws before the 23 00:01:22,081 --> 00:01:26,321 Speaker 1: High Court, which declared them unconstitutional. The descendants are a 24 00:01:26,321 --> 00:01:29,321 Speaker 1: declared outlaw motorcycle gang, and the brothers played a prominent 25 00:01:29,441 --> 00:01:33,481 Speaker 1: role in fighting the state's harsh anti bikey laws. After 26 00:01:33,521 --> 00:01:36,761 Speaker 1: that success, Tom and Perry went back to a quiet life, 27 00:01:36,961 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: which mainly involved raising their families and enjoying club life. 28 00:01:41,681 --> 00:01:45,321 Speaker 1: But then Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton had other ideas. 29 00:01:46,161 --> 00:01:49,081 Speaker 1: In December twenty twenty, Tom and Perry were arrested and 30 00:01:49,161 --> 00:01:53,121 Speaker 1: placed in immigration detention, penning their deportation to New Zealand 31 00:01:53,401 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: for failing the character tests. 32 00:01:55,721 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 3: Tom and Perry Mackie are being sent back to New 33 00:01:58,241 --> 00:02:02,561 Speaker 3: Zealand fifty two years after emmigrating. Her visas torn up 34 00:02:02,761 --> 00:02:05,881 Speaker 3: due to bad character and in. 35 00:02:05,921 --> 00:02:10,401 Speaker 1: June twenty twenty five they now face imminent deportation after 36 00:02:10,481 --> 00:02:15,161 Speaker 1: exhausting all legal avenues and Tom joins me from broad 37 00:02:15,161 --> 00:02:16,241 Speaker 1: Meadows Detention Center. 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,201 Speaker 2: Get it Tom, Yeah, good evening, Adam. 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: How you doing good mate? It's days away now after 40 00:02:23,001 --> 00:02:26,481 Speaker 1: four and a half years of waiting. What's the next step. 41 00:02:27,561 --> 00:02:31,001 Speaker 2: Well, look, we're just pushing as much stuff as we 42 00:02:31,041 --> 00:02:34,921 Speaker 2: can directly through to the Minister you know, personal pleas 43 00:02:35,001 --> 00:02:38,601 Speaker 2: from the family to relook at our case, perhaps you know, 44 00:02:38,721 --> 00:02:42,081 Speaker 2: a late endtervention. In the likely event that he's going 45 00:02:42,121 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: to do that, then we're just faced with having to 46 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,201 Speaker 2: comply with it, go with the deportation, and then you know, 47 00:02:48,361 --> 00:02:50,561 Speaker 2: while sitting off shore, I hope that somewhere on the 48 00:02:50,601 --> 00:02:53,921 Speaker 2: line in the future there's an adjustment to the directions 49 00:02:54,121 --> 00:02:56,801 Speaker 2: that sort of work around this act and we can reapply. 50 00:02:56,921 --> 00:03:00,361 Speaker 2: I mean, technically speaking, there's always an avenue to reapply 51 00:03:00,441 --> 00:03:02,001 Speaker 2: for a visa to come back in the country. But 52 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,441 Speaker 2: technical normally deportation is pretty much the end of it, 53 00:03:05,441 --> 00:03:07,801 Speaker 2: and not not many people have the success after that. 54 00:03:08,041 --> 00:03:11,241 Speaker 1: Because you and Perry have raised big families in Australia. 55 00:03:12,441 --> 00:03:16,761 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like ten kids between us, twenty two grandchildren, 56 00:03:16,921 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: three great grandchildren married to Australian woman for you know, 57 00:03:22,041 --> 00:03:25,721 Speaker 2: in relationships for over forty years. Five generations you know, 58 00:03:25,841 --> 00:03:28,001 Speaker 2: from my mum and dad Australian citizens down to my 59 00:03:28,041 --> 00:03:32,041 Speaker 2: great grandchildren. So you got five generations over fifty five people, 60 00:03:33,201 --> 00:03:36,081 Speaker 2: all Australians bar two of us who were only permanent residents. 61 00:03:36,081 --> 00:03:37,601 Speaker 2: So we were the odd two out. 62 00:03:37,961 --> 00:03:40,961 Speaker 1: Yeah. People will be saying why didn't you apply for citizenship? 63 00:03:41,641 --> 00:03:43,561 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, one of those things, isn't it. It's never 64 00:03:43,601 --> 00:03:46,081 Speaker 2: suggested to you. It's not a part of any criteria 65 00:03:46,201 --> 00:03:48,801 Speaker 2: where you know, if the government come to you and said, look, 66 00:03:48,881 --> 00:03:50,841 Speaker 2: we decided that, you know, after ten years, twenty years 67 00:03:50,881 --> 00:03:54,321 Speaker 2: as a permanent resident, there should be a progressive pathway 68 00:03:54,401 --> 00:03:58,761 Speaker 2: to citizenship. Never were asked. When our parents and our 69 00:03:58,801 --> 00:04:02,641 Speaker 2: sister got citizenship, they got the papers as we said, Yah, 70 00:04:02,641 --> 00:04:05,361 Speaker 2: I don't know, we'll do that a bit later, got 71 00:04:05,401 --> 00:04:07,201 Speaker 2: back to it, and that's you know, it's just one 72 00:04:07,241 --> 00:04:09,961 Speaker 2: of those things because there's no need to do it. 73 00:04:10,121 --> 00:04:13,841 Speaker 2: There's no real impetus. Never felt like it was urgent, 74 00:04:13,921 --> 00:04:15,001 Speaker 2: so we didn't never bother. 75 00:04:15,561 --> 00:04:17,361 Speaker 1: Your last conviction was how long ago? 76 00:04:18,321 --> 00:04:21,521 Speaker 2: So just over forty five years ago since I last convicted. 77 00:04:22,001 --> 00:04:22,561 Speaker 1: And what was that? 78 00:04:22,601 --> 00:04:26,721 Speaker 2: For narcotic possession? Yeah, the result of an operation run 79 00:04:26,761 --> 00:04:30,041 Speaker 2: by the SA Drug Squad. At the time, they had ways, 80 00:04:30,281 --> 00:04:33,481 Speaker 2: ways and means our secure and convictions. But as happens, 81 00:04:33,481 --> 00:04:36,201 Speaker 2: they stand up in court and the conviction stands. You know, 82 00:04:36,241 --> 00:04:38,641 Speaker 2: whether it was absolutely as framed or not. 83 00:04:39,161 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: Because we've talked about that in the past, that you 84 00:04:41,401 --> 00:04:44,161 Speaker 1: believe you were loaded up with some heroin back in 85 00:04:44,201 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: the day. 86 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:51,121 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately the word of one me against six 87 00:04:51,401 --> 00:04:55,121 Speaker 2: police or two in the actual action, but four that 88 00:04:55,161 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: were part of the visit that day. The corroborating power 89 00:04:58,481 --> 00:05:02,201 Speaker 2: of senior police is always going to outweigh the word 90 00:05:02,201 --> 00:05:05,241 Speaker 2: of a defendant in a court case. It's well know, 91 00:05:05,281 --> 00:05:08,881 Speaker 2: and in those days it was a well practiced methodology 92 00:05:08,921 --> 00:05:12,601 Speaker 2: by police to get secure convictions, and many times came 93 00:05:12,801 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: unstuck in lots of ways in course of appeal and 94 00:05:15,801 --> 00:05:18,161 Speaker 2: raw commissions and all sorts of things. But of course, 95 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,241 Speaker 2: just as many times, the conviction stuck. And in my case, 96 00:05:21,281 --> 00:05:21,961 Speaker 2: that's stuck. 97 00:05:22,161 --> 00:05:24,201 Speaker 1: Because something happened to you while you were in jail. 98 00:05:24,281 --> 00:05:27,361 Speaker 1: Your heart changed. You realized you couldn't beat the system, 99 00:05:27,721 --> 00:05:29,841 Speaker 1: and you decided that you were going to change your 100 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: club from one that was had a criminal focus to 101 00:05:33,481 --> 00:05:35,841 Speaker 1: one that was really centered around the motorcycle. 102 00:05:36,681 --> 00:05:38,241 Speaker 2: Well that's had It's a return, isn't it. You know? 103 00:05:38,281 --> 00:05:39,801 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we all go around in circle. 104 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: So you know, you wander off with a little bit 105 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,401 Speaker 2: of a venture in lots of ways, behavior, you know, 106 00:05:45,241 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: all sorts of ways, and then you bring it back around. 107 00:05:47,481 --> 00:05:49,601 Speaker 2: So when the club had a bit of a run 108 00:05:49,721 --> 00:05:52,441 Speaker 2: with the Biking Squad at the time, and they use 109 00:05:52,481 --> 00:05:54,681 Speaker 2: the methods as they used to get the convictions they 110 00:05:54,721 --> 00:05:58,401 Speaker 2: need to justify, you know, ends justify the means. Yeah, 111 00:05:58,401 --> 00:06:00,681 Speaker 2: there's only one way to sort of separate yourself, and 112 00:06:00,521 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: that that stepped back from it a little bit, you know, 113 00:06:02,401 --> 00:06:04,801 Speaker 2: let them move on, and of course by doing that, 114 00:06:04,841 --> 00:06:07,161 Speaker 2: you really returned to what you were doing before, which 115 00:06:07,241 --> 00:06:09,921 Speaker 2: was for us, it was motorcycle racing and when that 116 00:06:10,001 --> 00:06:12,441 Speaker 2: was our passion, that's what our sort of life story is, 117 00:06:13,001 --> 00:06:15,481 Speaker 2: racing from little dirt bikes, you know, when we're first 118 00:06:15,481 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 2: old enough to buy them, and then through to drag racing, 119 00:06:18,161 --> 00:06:20,801 Speaker 2: and then spent the next twenty twenty five years traveling 120 00:06:20,841 --> 00:06:24,841 Speaker 2: around Australia racing motorcycles and working on them, and you know, 121 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,841 Speaker 2: returning to the sort of the fun, more fun part 122 00:06:26,841 --> 00:06:30,641 Speaker 2: of what we were doing. So you know, that was 123 00:06:30,681 --> 00:06:33,761 Speaker 2: pretty easy to return to something that you enjoyed. It's 124 00:06:33,961 --> 00:06:36,721 Speaker 2: not even like you're departing a style of life into 125 00:06:37,041 --> 00:06:39,601 Speaker 2: something totally different. It's just a return and that's what 126 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,321 Speaker 2: I guess that's the true form of rehabilitation, and that 127 00:06:42,401 --> 00:06:45,241 Speaker 2: you go back to the behavior that didn't get you 128 00:06:45,281 --> 00:06:47,601 Speaker 2: in trouble and keeps you out of trouble. And it 129 00:06:47,641 --> 00:06:49,721 Speaker 2: was pretty simple formula. 130 00:06:49,121 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: Because you as president, what standards were you now enforcing 131 00:06:52,641 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: in the membership of the club. There was only one chapter, 132 00:06:54,921 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: by the way, there was an avalaide that was it. Yeah, 133 00:06:57,921 --> 00:06:59,561 Speaker 1: so you could keep an eye on the members. 134 00:07:00,081 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, And we didn't have a hierarchical role 135 00:07:02,601 --> 00:07:06,481 Speaker 2: as such. Did let experience drive decision making. So as 136 00:07:06,681 --> 00:07:10,721 Speaker 2: an original member and you know, you try and set 137 00:07:10,761 --> 00:07:13,921 Speaker 2: direction as you were an older brother, a father figure, 138 00:07:14,281 --> 00:07:16,801 Speaker 2: or even just a part of a group. So so 139 00:07:16,841 --> 00:07:19,601 Speaker 2: it was more a consensus, you know, to sort of 140 00:07:19,641 --> 00:07:23,561 Speaker 2: move from people getting sick of getting hounded to just 141 00:07:23,601 --> 00:07:26,081 Speaker 2: sit back a little bit. Do some motor bike racing 142 00:07:26,521 --> 00:07:31,401 Speaker 2: police squads move on different clubs, different themes, you know, 143 00:07:31,601 --> 00:07:34,161 Speaker 2: sort of rise up, particularly in the motorcycle scene. Over 144 00:07:34,201 --> 00:07:37,201 Speaker 2: the years, it evolved into a different structure and a 145 00:07:37,201 --> 00:07:39,921 Speaker 2: different perception and everyone has of it now. But it 146 00:07:39,961 --> 00:07:41,841 Speaker 2: was easy for us to stay here the way we were, 147 00:07:42,001 --> 00:07:46,081 Speaker 2: being small club, family based, single chapter, one town, pretty 148 00:07:46,121 --> 00:07:50,361 Speaker 2: easy to not be affected by international national trends or compulsions. 149 00:07:50,401 --> 00:07:50,601 Speaker 1: You know. 150 00:07:50,641 --> 00:07:53,841 Speaker 2: Some some groups would have to operate, you know, in 151 00:07:53,881 --> 00:07:57,081 Speaker 2: a way that's set by somewhere else. We never had that, 152 00:07:57,161 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: so you know, to sit back, go motor boat racing 153 00:07:59,641 --> 00:08:02,761 Speaker 2: pretty easy because we weren't getting pulled or dragged in 154 00:08:02,801 --> 00:08:03,641 Speaker 2: any other directions. 155 00:08:04,521 --> 00:08:10,001 Speaker 1: But the one percent tag, which yeah, delineates clubs that 156 00:08:10,121 --> 00:08:12,881 Speaker 1: have that tag from other social clubs. 157 00:08:13,401 --> 00:08:15,681 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll look at the handy label that's been tagged 158 00:08:15,681 --> 00:08:18,801 Speaker 2: onto people. Because the original days of all the motorcycle 159 00:08:18,801 --> 00:08:21,561 Speaker 2: clubs in Australia, I don't think any, if and if 160 00:08:21,561 --> 00:08:24,081 Speaker 2: any did, there were few and far between actually identified 161 00:08:24,081 --> 00:08:25,881 Speaker 2: with a one percent tag. All wore it. It was 162 00:08:25,921 --> 00:08:29,761 Speaker 2: an americanism and it evolved and unfortunate. It's one of 163 00:08:29,801 --> 00:08:32,321 Speaker 2: those things where the more you're accused of one percent 164 00:08:32,361 --> 00:08:35,201 Speaker 2: of a different for everyone else and one percent identify 165 00:08:35,201 --> 00:08:38,201 Speaker 2: as an outlaw. Then it actually followed suit that lots 166 00:08:38,201 --> 00:08:40,681 Speaker 2: of clubs started actually wearing a one percent badge because 167 00:08:40,721 --> 00:08:43,281 Speaker 2: that's what they were told it was expected of them 168 00:08:43,361 --> 00:08:46,201 Speaker 2: in the media. So, you know, the media narrative drives 169 00:08:46,241 --> 00:08:48,401 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff. If you tell a certain group 170 00:08:48,441 --> 00:08:51,001 Speaker 2: of kids that this is what they're being accused of, 171 00:08:51,081 --> 00:08:52,801 Speaker 2: you know half of them will go do it because 172 00:08:52,801 --> 00:08:55,321 Speaker 2: that's what's expected, and clubs did a bit of that, 173 00:08:55,641 --> 00:08:58,561 Speaker 2: you know. So the one percent thing in our early days, 174 00:08:58,601 --> 00:09:00,961 Speaker 2: the one percent thing meant nothing. It was an americanism, 175 00:09:01,121 --> 00:09:04,521 Speaker 2: and you'll find every senior member from the seventies would 176 00:09:04,521 --> 00:09:07,881 Speaker 2: probably take that from most clubs. Some grabbed it quickly 177 00:09:07,881 --> 00:09:09,561 Speaker 2: and evolved with it and run with it and made 178 00:09:09,601 --> 00:09:12,241 Speaker 2: it a part of their thing, and then everybody did, 179 00:09:12,521 --> 00:09:16,001 Speaker 2: almost everybody did, and then the police and the authorities 180 00:09:16,201 --> 00:09:19,081 Speaker 2: lashed onto it as ah, there's the identifier, that's what 181 00:09:19,161 --> 00:09:22,481 Speaker 2: makes them different. Well, once they started saying it, everyone 182 00:09:22,521 --> 00:09:25,161 Speaker 2: started believing it. Whereas, like I say, you go back 183 00:09:25,161 --> 00:09:27,721 Speaker 2: to the old photos of nineteen seventy two, seventy three, 184 00:09:27,841 --> 00:09:31,121 Speaker 2: seventy four, big club runs where all the clubs are there, 185 00:09:31,121 --> 00:09:33,521 Speaker 2: you won't find a one percent badge there anywhere, very rare. 186 00:09:33,801 --> 00:09:36,361 Speaker 2: No one cared about it, police didn't care about it. 187 00:09:36,361 --> 00:09:40,521 Speaker 2: It wasn't a political identifier, and we didn't wear them. 188 00:09:40,641 --> 00:09:44,441 Speaker 1: Because it's become synonymous with crime, and all the clubs 189 00:09:44,441 --> 00:09:47,201 Speaker 1: are tagged with it. You've got forty one clubs, but 190 00:09:47,281 --> 00:09:49,841 Speaker 1: really there's only a handful of clubs that are even 191 00:09:49,881 --> 00:09:52,801 Speaker 1: in the media these days being involved in organized crime, 192 00:09:52,881 --> 00:09:55,841 Speaker 1: Yet all of you get tagged with the same idea 193 00:09:56,001 --> 00:09:58,161 Speaker 1: because of the one percent bags you wear. 194 00:09:59,161 --> 00:10:02,041 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's what you know. There's been a handy tool, 195 00:10:02,081 --> 00:10:04,721 Speaker 2: didn't it for labeling. There's been a very handy tool 196 00:10:04,761 --> 00:10:07,841 Speaker 2: for law enforcement that want to market a product of 197 00:10:08,281 --> 00:10:10,201 Speaker 2: you know, create fear. And we've got the solution. Just 198 00:10:10,241 --> 00:10:13,241 Speaker 2: give us more resources. And so if you've got ten clubs, 199 00:10:13,241 --> 00:10:15,041 Speaker 2: they are always in the headlines, and thirty that no 200 00:10:15,041 --> 00:10:17,881 Speaker 2: one's ever heard of. But you can create some legislation 201 00:10:17,961 --> 00:10:20,841 Speaker 2: that covers all forty. You know, you've cultivated quite a 202 00:10:20,881 --> 00:10:26,481 Speaker 2: big range of potential arrests atistics without the actual justification. 203 00:10:26,961 --> 00:10:28,761 Speaker 2: Just say they're all one percent, as they must all 204 00:10:28,801 --> 00:10:32,401 Speaker 2: be criminals. And no matter what we say, and no 205 00:10:32,441 --> 00:10:35,241 Speaker 2: matter what the stats you get, Professor Goldsworthy and all 206 00:10:35,281 --> 00:10:37,801 Speaker 2: these criminologists come on and go and talk to all 207 00:10:37,841 --> 00:10:40,641 Speaker 2: over all commissions and all the commissions of inquiry and go, hey, 208 00:10:41,441 --> 00:10:44,201 Speaker 2: fifty two percent you know on our stats. Crime Commission 209 00:10:44,201 --> 00:10:46,401 Speaker 2: will tell you there's fifty two to fifty five percent 210 00:10:46,401 --> 00:10:49,841 Speaker 2: of them. I've got criminal records, So what's this criminal organization? 211 00:10:50,001 --> 00:10:53,201 Speaker 2: Through and through? It's not real in the stats, absolutely 212 00:10:53,241 --> 00:10:53,641 Speaker 2: not real. 213 00:10:53,841 --> 00:10:55,441 Speaker 1: Yeah. I wrote a book back in the day called 214 00:10:55,441 --> 00:10:58,201 Speaker 1: out Laws. I looked at the level of bikey crime 215 00:10:58,441 --> 00:11:01,641 Speaker 1: occurring in society and it was low level. Really what 216 00:11:01,761 --> 00:11:04,041 Speaker 1: it was low level in the States, you guys get 217 00:11:04,081 --> 00:11:06,681 Speaker 1: all the publicity. I looked at it recently, it really 218 00:11:06,681 --> 00:11:09,161 Speaker 1: hasn't changed much despite all the publicity and some of 219 00:11:09,201 --> 00:11:12,281 Speaker 1: these very high profile clubs getting involved in some pretty 220 00:11:12,361 --> 00:11:16,121 Speaker 1: upscale organized crime, drug importation and so forth. The average 221 00:11:16,121 --> 00:11:20,641 Speaker 1: biker is still a busted ass guy with his motorbike, house, 222 00:11:21,121 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: a little family, and he's not a mister b No. 223 00:11:25,161 --> 00:11:28,441 Speaker 2: No, it's look it it's a membrane between you know, 224 00:11:28,561 --> 00:11:32,921 Speaker 2: motorcol groups, people in the community that are involved, and 225 00:11:32,961 --> 00:11:36,361 Speaker 2: the transfer of people just mingling, you know, using their 226 00:11:36,361 --> 00:11:39,201 Speaker 2: club membership for what they get out of that that's 227 00:11:39,241 --> 00:11:43,001 Speaker 2: good for them, and then also having a sideline of 228 00:11:43,281 --> 00:11:46,761 Speaker 2: criminal endeavor. And you know that goes on in all workplace. 229 00:11:46,841 --> 00:11:49,401 Speaker 2: You know, not everybody in every workplace is using that 230 00:11:49,481 --> 00:11:52,481 Speaker 2: workplaces as the crush for their activity. It's just it's 231 00:11:52,521 --> 00:11:55,601 Speaker 2: just a part of their life. So I've certainly seen 232 00:11:55,641 --> 00:11:58,961 Speaker 2: in my time that the vast majority of blokes I 233 00:11:59,041 --> 00:12:01,761 Speaker 2: know and kick around with and have met and other crews, 234 00:12:02,281 --> 00:12:04,961 Speaker 2: you know, and days are all about you know, brother, 235 00:12:05,121 --> 00:12:07,281 Speaker 2: good fun, family, motor boat riding and all the good 236 00:12:07,321 --> 00:12:10,321 Speaker 2: stuff is plottin the scheme that must go on if 237 00:12:10,361 --> 00:12:12,601 Speaker 2: you're supposed to be one hundred percent and only exists 238 00:12:12,641 --> 00:12:16,081 Speaker 2: for crime. I don't think that's a truism in any 239 00:12:16,121 --> 00:12:19,761 Speaker 2: group at all. It's just an exaggeration that law enforcement 240 00:12:19,801 --> 00:12:22,601 Speaker 2: pedal to create a climate where they can get more 241 00:12:22,641 --> 00:12:25,561 Speaker 2: resources because they've created the fear that this is what's happening. 242 00:12:25,881 --> 00:12:26,521 Speaker 2: I don't see it. 243 00:12:26,921 --> 00:12:29,281 Speaker 1: So what have you been doing since you gave up 244 00:12:29,321 --> 00:12:31,481 Speaker 1: crime at the seventies, all those years ago? What have 245 00:12:31,521 --> 00:12:32,561 Speaker 1: you been doing doing a living? 246 00:12:33,601 --> 00:12:35,761 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, just make we take on jobs that you've 247 00:12:35,801 --> 00:12:37,361 Speaker 2: got a skill out or a trade at. You know, 248 00:12:37,441 --> 00:12:39,201 Speaker 2: most of the boys a tradesman, and that I've always 249 00:12:39,321 --> 00:12:41,841 Speaker 2: worked on motorbikes, and to spend the last twenty five 250 00:12:41,921 --> 00:12:44,681 Speaker 2: years as a rigger, you know, working entertainment rigging, putting 251 00:12:44,761 --> 00:12:48,281 Speaker 2: up shows and you know entertainment centers and on navles, 252 00:12:48,281 --> 00:12:49,961 Speaker 2: big day outs, all that sort of stuff, hanging all 253 00:12:49,961 --> 00:12:52,281 Speaker 2: the speakers and the lights and working out those sort 254 00:12:52,321 --> 00:12:54,721 Speaker 2: of things where you set up the show and then 255 00:12:54,761 --> 00:12:56,681 Speaker 2: you watch it. For nothing, and then you pull all 256 00:12:56,721 --> 00:12:58,921 Speaker 2: apart at the ends a good gig. 257 00:12:59,521 --> 00:13:01,281 Speaker 1: So you're not driving a Ferrari, you don't live with 258 00:13:01,321 --> 00:13:03,161 Speaker 1: a mansion, you don't get around like that. 259 00:13:04,361 --> 00:13:06,881 Speaker 2: Nah, that's right. You know, it's one of those things 260 00:13:06,881 --> 00:13:08,721 Speaker 2: in where they're only going to pull the one or 261 00:13:08,721 --> 00:13:10,801 Speaker 2: two or the five or six out of every group 262 00:13:10,841 --> 00:13:13,721 Speaker 2: of people that have got that sort of profile and 263 00:13:13,761 --> 00:13:16,361 Speaker 2: then cast it as being this is an average it's not. 264 00:13:17,241 --> 00:13:19,601 Speaker 2: You know, it gets out of the honesty. And I mean, 265 00:13:19,641 --> 00:13:22,641 Speaker 2: you're never going to get absolutely honesty from law enforcement 266 00:13:22,641 --> 00:13:24,721 Speaker 2: because it's not their interest. They're not going to go 267 00:13:24,841 --> 00:13:26,721 Speaker 2: to the meter and say, look, you know, yeah, we 268 00:13:26,801 --> 00:13:28,601 Speaker 2: know this club pretty well. They got four or five 269 00:13:28,681 --> 00:13:31,561 Speaker 2: boys that get up to a bit. Now the others know, 270 00:13:31,721 --> 00:13:33,961 Speaker 2: we've got no problem with them. There are many members 271 00:13:34,001 --> 00:13:36,601 Speaker 2: of many clubs that have never been raided by police, 272 00:13:37,001 --> 00:13:40,041 Speaker 2: never been hassled by them. They have no interest in 273 00:13:40,081 --> 00:13:42,441 Speaker 2: them because they do nothing. Then you see them on 274 00:13:42,441 --> 00:13:44,801 Speaker 2: a TV present if you're going these guys are all 275 00:13:44,801 --> 00:13:47,161 Speaker 2: criminals down and he exists for crime, and you know 276 00:13:47,241 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: that's just a plete and exaggeration and lie to perpetuate 277 00:13:51,201 --> 00:13:53,361 Speaker 2: better resource funding. It's nothing to do with the truth. 278 00:13:54,001 --> 00:13:55,921 Speaker 2: But how do you prove it? You know, we can't 279 00:13:55,961 --> 00:13:58,401 Speaker 2: prove that. We can just say, well, in my case, 280 00:13:58,601 --> 00:14:01,681 Speaker 2: forty five years without him arrest. I don't know from 281 00:14:01,721 --> 00:14:04,401 Speaker 2: most normal people that would suggest with the amount of 282 00:14:04,441 --> 00:14:09,161 Speaker 2: police attention that we get in terms of observation, supervision, 283 00:14:10,201 --> 00:14:13,081 Speaker 2: interacting with us on our rides and runs and stuff. 284 00:14:13,081 --> 00:14:16,321 Speaker 2: You're thinking forty five years with that sort of observations 285 00:14:16,361 --> 00:14:19,321 Speaker 2: on us, you wouldn't get away with much. And yet 286 00:14:20,001 --> 00:14:23,561 Speaker 2: there's no convictions. So what about the benefit of the doubt, 287 00:14:23,641 --> 00:14:26,041 Speaker 2: or maybe there's no convictions because there's nothing to convict for. 288 00:14:26,561 --> 00:14:29,001 Speaker 1: It certainly caused you a lot of grief, this membership 289 00:14:29,041 --> 00:14:31,321 Speaker 1: of a club. I remember talking to one BIKEI back 290 00:14:31,321 --> 00:14:33,201 Speaker 1: in the day in Adelaide, saying to him and all, 291 00:14:33,281 --> 00:14:35,401 Speaker 1: with trouble and strife that he was facing, maybe you 292 00:14:35,401 --> 00:14:38,881 Speaker 1: should take up golf as a hobby rather than motorcycles. 293 00:14:39,361 --> 00:14:42,721 Speaker 1: Have you ever considered giving it away completely, just stepping 294 00:14:42,761 --> 00:14:43,321 Speaker 1: away from it. 295 00:14:43,841 --> 00:14:45,441 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we get to the stage, like in 296 00:14:45,441 --> 00:14:47,641 Speaker 2: our club particularly and most clubs, where you get to 297 00:14:47,921 --> 00:14:50,761 Speaker 2: a retirement age. You know, whether that's locked in on 298 00:14:50,801 --> 00:14:53,401 Speaker 2: a formal idea or whether it's just you pick a 299 00:14:53,481 --> 00:14:55,241 Speaker 2: time when you know you're too old to pick up 300 00:14:55,241 --> 00:14:57,081 Speaker 2: your bike that falls over, or you're too old to 301 00:14:57,121 --> 00:14:59,321 Speaker 2: ride it all day and can't walk for the rest 302 00:14:59,321 --> 00:15:02,241 Speaker 2: of the day. And so if you can't actually complete 303 00:15:02,241 --> 00:15:04,601 Speaker 2: your club runs and stuff like that, anything out, it's 304 00:15:04,601 --> 00:15:07,001 Speaker 2: pretty much time to hang up my hat and just 305 00:15:07,521 --> 00:15:08,961 Speaker 2: you know, so good o the boys now and then 306 00:15:09,001 --> 00:15:10,601 Speaker 2: go down for a beer at the clubhouse. And that's 307 00:15:11,281 --> 00:15:13,921 Speaker 2: That's got a whole variety of how you go about that. 308 00:15:13,961 --> 00:15:16,001 Speaker 2: Every club's different, and in fact most clubs are quite 309 00:15:16,001 --> 00:15:18,921 Speaker 2: private about that. There's all sorts of stories that permeate 310 00:15:19,041 --> 00:15:20,561 Speaker 2: through the media that you got to pay your way 311 00:15:20,561 --> 00:15:22,241 Speaker 2: out and you lose your bike, and there's all sorts 312 00:15:22,241 --> 00:15:25,121 Speaker 2: to carry on you can never leave or rubbish, you know, 313 00:15:25,201 --> 00:15:28,081 Speaker 2: look at all absolutely because if you have been a 314 00:15:28,121 --> 00:15:30,361 Speaker 2: really good mate and a really good club member for ten, 315 00:15:30,401 --> 00:15:33,401 Speaker 2: twenty thirty forty years and your back is so bad 316 00:15:33,441 --> 00:15:35,961 Speaker 2: you can't ride your bike, what your club's going to 317 00:15:35,961 --> 00:15:39,041 Speaker 2: cripple you financially because you want to leave, Like really, 318 00:15:39,201 --> 00:15:42,801 Speaker 2: I mean, the brotherhood doesn't extend of compassion for a 319 00:15:42,841 --> 00:15:46,121 Speaker 2: bloke that's actually at the age where it's actually dangerous 320 00:15:46,121 --> 00:15:49,201 Speaker 2: for them to be on a run and it doesn't happen. 321 00:15:49,241 --> 00:15:51,641 Speaker 2: People just get Look, you know where you go, come 322 00:15:51,641 --> 00:15:53,521 Speaker 2: down when you want. Yes, you come for a ride 323 00:15:53,521 --> 00:15:55,521 Speaker 2: when you want. You can keep your colors in the 324 00:15:55,601 --> 00:15:58,201 Speaker 2: wardrobe if you want. Because you're an honorable member. You're 325 00:15:58,281 --> 00:16:01,521 Speaker 2: left on good standing. We don't require that you handle 326 00:16:01,601 --> 00:16:04,001 Speaker 2: back there. And just like the military, you retire from 327 00:16:04,041 --> 00:16:06,441 Speaker 2: the military, you get to keep My dad add he's 328 00:16:06,441 --> 00:16:09,601 Speaker 2: an Avy uniform in the wardrobe my whole childhood, So 329 00:16:09,721 --> 00:16:11,921 Speaker 2: you got to keep his uniform so I can retire 330 00:16:11,961 --> 00:16:14,121 Speaker 2: and keep mind the police will not believe you. 331 00:16:16,001 --> 00:16:19,721 Speaker 1: But you did see some clubs go down this gangster path, 332 00:16:20,121 --> 00:16:25,681 Speaker 1: and whether it's conforming to media portrayals or criminal opportunities, 333 00:16:26,121 --> 00:16:29,201 Speaker 1: I don't know. But things did change and some clubs 334 00:16:29,201 --> 00:16:32,721 Speaker 1: were the worst offenders for this sort of stuff and 335 00:16:32,801 --> 00:16:34,441 Speaker 1: brought heat on the others. 336 00:16:34,801 --> 00:16:36,441 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, and that's you know, you're going to get 337 00:16:36,441 --> 00:16:39,401 Speaker 2: that across all facets of all things, aren't you. It 338 00:16:39,721 --> 00:16:44,161 Speaker 2: doesn't really matter. If that's where a trend heads and 339 00:16:44,201 --> 00:16:45,921 Speaker 2: the type of people that like the look of that 340 00:16:46,001 --> 00:16:48,961 Speaker 2: trend go to those groups, then of course that's where 341 00:16:48,961 --> 00:16:52,281 Speaker 2: it's going to go. Nothing's going to change that, and 342 00:16:52,321 --> 00:16:55,721 Speaker 2: if police action comes in and it's targeted, then of course, 343 00:16:56,321 --> 00:16:58,241 Speaker 2: as they did in the seventies where they like your 344 00:16:58,281 --> 00:17:01,201 Speaker 2: squads in the day there as you were very targeted. 345 00:17:01,241 --> 00:17:04,881 Speaker 2: You know, they actually went after the personalities rather than 346 00:17:05,521 --> 00:17:08,281 Speaker 2: convinced legislators to just give us a big broad brush. 347 00:17:08,321 --> 00:17:09,761 Speaker 2: In that way, we can jar them all for knowing 348 00:17:09,801 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: each other, they actould come out and court. So in 349 00:17:11,961 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: our club at the time, a couple of us went 350 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 2: to jail, but a whole lot didn't because they weren't 351 00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:18,801 Speaker 2: doing anything. But now they'd all go to jail just 352 00:17:18,801 --> 00:17:21,281 Speaker 2: for knowing the guys that did. So it's a broad 353 00:17:21,281 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 2: brush approach from legislation that's actually made the crime wave 354 00:17:25,001 --> 00:17:27,481 Speaker 2: as such much bigger than it really is, because now 355 00:17:27,721 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 2: we can all go to jail for knowing each other, 356 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: whereas once on a time you had to go to 357 00:17:31,521 --> 00:17:34,961 Speaker 2: jail for doing something not knowing someone. So I think 358 00:17:35,001 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: that has played into it. 359 00:17:37,041 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: Because you got through the consorting law era in the 360 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,321 Speaker 1: seventies where people could be jail for simply hanging out 361 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: with other people with criminal records, and we thought that 362 00:17:46,001 --> 00:17:48,241 Speaker 1: was finished. It was a very corrupt piece of legislation. 363 00:17:48,321 --> 00:17:51,281 Speaker 1: That gave police too much power and created a whole 364 00:17:51,961 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: raft of informers. That was a very healthy situation, and 365 00:17:55,001 --> 00:17:57,521 Speaker 1: most states got rid of it, but we saw nearly 366 00:17:57,521 --> 00:18:01,521 Speaker 1: two thousands this returned in the form of anti association 367 00:18:01,721 --> 00:18:05,361 Speaker 1: laws and it was targeted at other clubs. How much 368 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: yours directly, But no, you made yourself a target by 369 00:18:12,201 --> 00:18:15,321 Speaker 1: unifying the clubs in a sense, by creating the United 370 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: Motorcycle Council to oppose the legislation. 371 00:18:20,201 --> 00:18:23,321 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, as it stands, when you're an 372 00:18:23,321 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 2: older guy, and especially in the club seeing you've been 373 00:18:25,441 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: around a long time, you know and know well a 374 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 2: lot of the older original members of all the other clubs, 375 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,201 Speaker 2: no matter what they've morphed into, and so those friendships 376 00:18:34,281 --> 00:18:37,481 Speaker 2: come from personality friendships. And so then when there's actually 377 00:18:37,521 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 2: a combined action where you think, look, let's all get 378 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:40,961 Speaker 2: together and you know, what are we going to do 379 00:18:41,001 --> 00:18:44,041 Speaker 2: about this? Is it worth hiring some lawyers and have 380 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:46,721 Speaker 2: a bit of organized resistance to this legislation because it's 381 00:18:46,721 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: going to affect our workplaces, it's going to affect our 382 00:18:49,281 --> 00:18:52,401 Speaker 2: poker runs and stuff like that, you know, normal lawful activity. 383 00:18:52,441 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: It's going to impact that we probably should get some 384 00:18:54,801 --> 00:18:58,641 Speaker 2: legal minds on this. So rather than one club were 385 00:18:58,681 --> 00:19:00,481 Speaker 2: at all, why don't we just unify and do some 386 00:19:00,721 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: raffles and bikes and do some stuff to raise some 387 00:19:02,521 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: money to hire the legals that can do it. Do 388 00:19:05,241 --> 00:19:07,041 Speaker 2: you go to you go to the friends you know 389 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,441 Speaker 2: from other clubs that you've known for ten years, twenty years, 390 00:19:09,441 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 2: thirty and you have a friendly relationship with, so that 391 00:19:13,441 --> 00:19:16,521 Speaker 2: can easily be and was labeled as a unification of 392 00:19:16,521 --> 00:19:19,761 Speaker 2: all the gang leaders the sky's falling in? Or was 393 00:19:19,801 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 2: it really just a bunch of old guys that have 394 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,601 Speaker 2: known each other a long time from each club come 395 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,761 Speaker 2: together because they can actually peacefully talk and discuss intelligently 396 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,721 Speaker 2: motors operandi to actually try and defend the lifestyle, which 397 00:19:31,761 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: is actually what it really was. But the pits as 398 00:19:34,921 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 2: it once again law enforcement and media can get in 399 00:19:37,241 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: bed together and make it what they wanted, which was 400 00:19:39,761 --> 00:19:42,281 Speaker 2: a unification of the bad guys. Or was it really 401 00:19:42,321 --> 00:19:44,801 Speaker 2: just a meeting of the grandfathers? You know, we know 402 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 2: what was true, and the police and the media in 403 00:19:46,921 --> 00:19:49,521 Speaker 2: close absolutely know that too well. 404 00:19:49,561 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: I saw it up close as well. I was in 405 00:19:51,681 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: your clubhouse doing some of those meetings you'd have people 406 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,281 Speaker 1: from clubs, not just old blogs by the way, some 407 00:19:57,321 --> 00:20:01,281 Speaker 1: younger guys as well, from clubs that had deep and 408 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,001 Speaker 1: abiding feuds rivalries over the years, but they were appared 409 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,521 Speaker 1: to put it aside for the purpose of protecting the 410 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,001 Speaker 1: overall movement. 411 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and it became sort of a catalyst for 412 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,761 Speaker 2: introducing younger guys. So you know, you always took a 413 00:20:17,761 --> 00:20:20,201 Speaker 2: few of you younger, newer members along because they didn't 414 00:20:20,441 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: often have any interaction with other clubs. And sometimes having 415 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 2: all those newer younger members along where they got to 416 00:20:27,201 --> 00:20:31,001 Speaker 2: meet newer younger members of other clubs and form friends, 417 00:20:31,241 --> 00:20:33,001 Speaker 2: found people that they sort of got along with the 418 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:36,041 Speaker 2: right that all of us older guys that were friends anyway. 419 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 2: So now we had younger members who became friends. And 420 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,921 Speaker 2: here we are ten fifteen years after those days, and 421 00:20:43,961 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 2: now those members are twenty thirty year members who are 422 00:20:46,441 --> 00:20:50,121 Speaker 2: still friends. So the legacy that it started, the legacy 423 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: that we had with all the older members got an 424 00:20:53,281 --> 00:20:56,041 Speaker 2: opportunity to start that for the younger members started then, 425 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:59,761 Speaker 2: and now fifteen years later, those people still have friendships 426 00:20:59,761 --> 00:21:02,761 Speaker 2: and phone numbers, so that anything that arises, whether it's 427 00:21:02,761 --> 00:21:05,881 Speaker 2: another political movement or putting out a spotfim, you've got 428 00:21:05,921 --> 00:21:08,801 Speaker 2: that contact. So it served a lot of purposes that 429 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 2: were all positive. There was no plotting, scheming and you 430 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,321 Speaker 2: were witnessed at some of those meetings. There was no 431 00:21:13,321 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 2: plotting or scheming or let's bringing the world down. It 432 00:21:15,921 --> 00:21:20,201 Speaker 2: was all about positivity, you know, represent ourselves properly. Well. 433 00:21:20,241 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: It was quite remarkable seeing a group of people I 434 00:21:23,681 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: guess you'd dedicated themselves living beyond the law, if you like, 435 00:21:27,001 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: in their own world, were suddenly going to the High Court. 436 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,201 Speaker 1: Tell us what happened, Yeah, yeah. 437 00:21:33,001 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 2: Well there was a case where the first declaration of 438 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,281 Speaker 2: a club started in South Australia and a couple that 439 00:21:38,561 --> 00:21:41,761 Speaker 2: were changed and become the test case. And so it 440 00:21:41,801 --> 00:21:44,841 Speaker 2: was really because we'd already started unifying a little bit 441 00:21:45,001 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 2: on ideas and fundraising to help whoever was the first 442 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,281 Speaker 2: one that sort of unified then and now the clubs 443 00:21:52,321 --> 00:21:54,961 Speaker 2: had actually a fight on their hands with a real 444 00:21:55,001 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 2: case which took a year or so to progress through 445 00:21:57,441 --> 00:21:59,521 Speaker 2: the High Court, and the High Court handed down to 446 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: six to one affirmation that our view was right, that 447 00:22:02,321 --> 00:22:06,441 Speaker 2: these type of draconian and the association and declaring clubs 448 00:22:06,481 --> 00:22:09,521 Speaker 2: you know, sort of almost terrorist groups. Was I think 449 00:22:09,521 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: one judge in the High Court in his summary of 450 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,161 Speaker 2: had declared a repugnant law. So you know, it got 451 00:22:15,241 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: washed away, it got scrapped because it was an overreach. 452 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 2: And as governments do, which I guess if they're entitled 453 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,721 Speaker 2: to do, they instruct their solicitors to spend a few 454 00:22:24,801 --> 00:22:27,801 Speaker 2: years on reconstructing another version of it. That they did 455 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,801 Speaker 2: they as she marketed it, the next version of it 456 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 2: as high Court proof, So you know, they construct legislation 457 00:22:34,041 --> 00:22:35,761 Speaker 2: to meet the ends which they want. Was is the 458 00:22:35,801 --> 00:22:38,321 Speaker 2: match the media threats that they were making. We're going 459 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 2: to do this, We're going to do that to these clubs, 460 00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: and we're going to make it high court proof as 461 00:22:41,961 --> 00:22:44,641 Speaker 2: a slayer on the highest court in the land. So 462 00:22:44,681 --> 00:22:46,001 Speaker 2: that's the political side of it. 463 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: So what is the state of play with being a 464 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,961 Speaker 1: biking in South Australia? Now, are you outlawed as some 465 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,521 Speaker 1: media would call. 466 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 2: You, sorony of it all? And it's not illegal to 467 00:22:56,721 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 2: be a member of a motorcycle club in Australia, not 468 00:22:59,441 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: in any state. It's absolutely not illegal. You can join one. 469 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: There are then tariffs and consequence that happened to you 470 00:23:06,761 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: for that membership. But you can legally be a member, 471 00:23:09,721 --> 00:23:13,321 Speaker 2: no problem at all, and you know, display your membership 472 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,801 Speaker 2: in areas where it's legal. Obviously not hotels or license 473 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,481 Speaker 2: premises anymore, and in some states not even on the street, 474 00:23:20,201 --> 00:23:23,321 Speaker 2: but certainly in lots of other areas you can. So, 475 00:23:23,721 --> 00:23:25,761 Speaker 2: you know, for one of those things where it's a 476 00:23:25,801 --> 00:23:28,081 Speaker 2: legal activity to be joining a club, but there will 477 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,481 Speaker 2: be so many other consequences that are placed on you, 478 00:23:31,481 --> 00:23:34,041 Speaker 2: you know, to try and encourage you to not stay 479 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 2: with that club, will be in that club, but that's 480 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,561 Speaker 2: designed to make it unbearable or uncomfortable to the point 481 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: where you may walk away. And then of course we 482 00:23:42,961 --> 00:23:46,041 Speaker 2: move into this position where the Immigration Acts sort of 483 00:23:46,041 --> 00:23:47,801 Speaker 2: comes in over the top of that and goes well, 484 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: just because you've had an association with a Mozole club, 485 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: whether you left twenty years ago, thirty years ago, or 486 00:23:54,481 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 2: last week, you know, your permanent residency visa becomes compromised 487 00:23:58,761 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: because even though membership is not illegal, it actually is 488 00:24:02,561 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: seen negatively under thecharacter assessment, and therefore your visa can 489 00:24:08,241 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 2: be canceled, and therefore you can be placed in attention 490 00:24:10,921 --> 00:24:13,761 Speaker 2: and removed from the country for at one stage in 491 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,921 Speaker 2: your life. Because there's no time limit. Could have been 492 00:24:15,921 --> 00:24:18,041 Speaker 2: forty years ago, it could have been four days ago. 493 00:24:18,681 --> 00:24:22,201 Speaker 2: You're liable for a whole other set of punishment. Where 494 00:24:22,321 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 2: now the original bit of trouble I got in the 495 00:24:25,481 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine ninety eight I've now been incarcerated now 496 00:24:30,681 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: for another four and a half years, you know, three 497 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,041 Speaker 2: times longer than that sentence got me, and about to 498 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: be deported. So that's three punishments for one offense. You know, 499 00:24:39,241 --> 00:24:41,481 Speaker 2: some people might say that's done past the pub test, 500 00:24:41,721 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 2: but that is the state of play when it comes 501 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:49,241 Speaker 2: to club association legislation. It's not illegal, but you can 502 00:24:49,281 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 2: be deported over it. 503 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the means to do this was, as you say, 504 00:24:56,441 --> 00:25:00,041 Speaker 1: the conviction back then, more than twelve months in jail 505 00:25:00,481 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: would I mean you couldn't pass the character test. But 506 00:25:03,721 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: also your advocacy on behalf of the other clubs was 507 00:25:07,241 --> 00:25:10,521 Speaker 1: seen as you showing that you're a leader of the 508 00:25:10,521 --> 00:25:14,041 Speaker 1: clubs in South Australia and that having won this high 509 00:25:14,041 --> 00:25:17,521 Speaker 1: court battle, that you may well be predisposed towards breaking 510 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,321 Speaker 1: other laws. 511 00:25:18,961 --> 00:25:21,561 Speaker 2: Absolutely well, it shows in their eyes, it shows that 512 00:25:22,041 --> 00:25:24,561 Speaker 2: even campaigning for your own rights and being proven that 513 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: your rights were being illegally affected, which is what the 514 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,081 Speaker 2: High Court did. It struck down the government's legislation as 515 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:36,361 Speaker 2: illegal legislation. So we were being illegally corralled by legislation 516 00:25:36,481 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: that got thrown out. So my punishment for bringing that 517 00:25:40,041 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: with a bunch of another hundred people that got involved 518 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,041 Speaker 2: in the UMC. So my punishment for being involved in 519 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,281 Speaker 2: exposing that illegal legislation is that that shows that you've 520 00:25:49,321 --> 00:25:52,601 Speaker 2: got anti government character. Well not really, I've got pro 521 00:25:52,721 --> 00:25:56,081 Speaker 2: lawful law character. That's what I've got. You know. I 522 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: was interested in campaigning for the laws being legal, not 523 00:25:58,961 --> 00:26:00,521 Speaker 2: so much anti government. They just had to be the 524 00:26:00,521 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: people that were bringing them about. So my anti government 525 00:26:04,761 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: stand and so on legislation means that that's another slant 526 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 2: on my character. 527 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,921 Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of what Minister Dutton relied upon 528 00:26:12,481 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: back then in twenty twenty came from the media. So 529 00:26:16,521 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: I do confess to feel a little tinge of guilt, 530 00:26:19,481 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: more than a little tinge actually about publicizing what you did, 531 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:27,201 Speaker 1: because I guess I was seeing something that was pro social, 532 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,561 Speaker 1: that was, as you say, it was trying to assess 533 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,721 Speaker 1: whether this was fair and constitutional. In the end, it's 534 00:26:34,761 --> 00:26:38,121 Speaker 1: caused the destruction of your family here in Australia. 535 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,521 Speaker 2: And you know, and I guess that's the timeline of 536 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 2: legislation that actually should not be retrospective because when we 537 00:26:44,921 --> 00:26:49,521 Speaker 2: were involved in that advocacy for better laws around motorcycle clubs, 538 00:26:50,001 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: not only was it legal to do that and still is, 539 00:26:53,521 --> 00:26:57,041 Speaker 2: but there was no other ramifications that could be used 540 00:26:57,041 --> 00:27:00,921 Speaker 2: against this because the Immigration Act as it stood under 541 00:27:00,921 --> 00:27:04,761 Speaker 2: the five oh one wasn't using character assessments on motorcycle 542 00:27:04,801 --> 00:27:09,481 Speaker 2: club advocacy as a component. So in two thousand and seven, eight, nine, 543 00:27:09,521 --> 00:27:11,961 Speaker 2: ten eleven, when we were doing all this advocacy work 544 00:27:12,041 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: for better laws, no one was getting deported for doing that. 545 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: No one was getting deported for being a motorcycle club associate. 546 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 2: Twenty fourteen, a new law come in that actually included 547 00:27:24,721 --> 00:27:27,801 Speaker 2: those things, unbeknown to all of us, of course. And 548 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,561 Speaker 2: then years and years later when they trolled through all 549 00:27:30,921 --> 00:27:36,241 Speaker 2: the names and heritage timelines for people involved in those things, 550 00:27:36,321 --> 00:27:39,801 Speaker 2: you know, they struck across a couple that were like myself, 551 00:27:40,201 --> 00:27:45,121 Speaker 2: long term fifty year residents, permanent residence but actually still 552 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,161 Speaker 2: on the visa and this new law forbid being involved 553 00:27:49,201 --> 00:27:53,281 Speaker 2: in political protesting when you're on a visa. But when 554 00:27:53,281 --> 00:27:55,321 Speaker 2: we did it, it was legal. But then when they 555 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: made it illegal, they reached back into the past. So 556 00:27:57,721 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: basically technically that I'm getting passed for the sins that 557 00:28:00,761 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 2: I did when it wasn't illegal to do it. 558 00:28:02,921 --> 00:28:05,481 Speaker 1: You've been there four and a half years. Now, you're 559 00:28:05,481 --> 00:28:08,961 Speaker 1: inside broad Meadows Detention Center. Now what's it like as 560 00:28:09,001 --> 00:28:10,721 Speaker 1: a long term resident there or inmates? 561 00:28:10,801 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 2: If you like mundane? You know, I mean that's a 562 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 2: problem with this. It's a cage bus stop. You know, 563 00:28:16,201 --> 00:28:18,681 Speaker 2: it's not a prison. So while you get a few 564 00:28:18,681 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 2: little things that are more comfortable in terms of devices 565 00:28:23,441 --> 00:28:27,561 Speaker 2: and the ability to have these conversations uncensored, there's no 566 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,921 Speaker 2: actual progress. So I can't through progressing like in a 567 00:28:31,961 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: prison system where you will come in at the bottom 568 00:28:34,521 --> 00:28:37,121 Speaker 2: of it as a maximum security prisoner, and then your 569 00:28:37,201 --> 00:28:40,241 Speaker 2: behavior and your work record and your demeanor will will 570 00:28:40,281 --> 00:28:42,881 Speaker 2: every six months or a year reassess your security rating. 571 00:28:42,921 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: So you work your way to a better prison, You 572 00:28:44,521 --> 00:28:46,041 Speaker 2: work your way to a better job, You work your 573 00:28:46,041 --> 00:28:48,681 Speaker 2: way to eventually to a country jail. You have work 574 00:28:48,721 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: your way to home detention on weekends, you work your 575 00:28:50,721 --> 00:28:53,001 Speaker 2: way to parole, so there's a carrot in front of 576 00:28:53,001 --> 00:28:54,921 Speaker 2: you the whole way, and so there's a progression of 577 00:28:54,961 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 2: your rehabilitation. And I did a lot when I was 578 00:28:57,761 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 2: in prison for my drug offense and came out of 579 00:29:00,561 --> 00:29:03,321 Speaker 2: a prison farm at the shiniest end that you can 580 00:29:03,561 --> 00:29:06,601 Speaker 2: rehabilitate yourself with an assess and it worked because I 581 00:29:06,641 --> 00:29:10,561 Speaker 2: never went back, obviously it worked. But in here don't 582 00:29:10,601 --> 00:29:13,521 Speaker 2: matter what you do. As we saw the NZEDYQ High 583 00:29:13,521 --> 00:29:16,121 Speaker 2: Court decision a year or two back where two hundred 584 00:29:16,201 --> 00:29:19,081 Speaker 2: detainees got released by the High Court that was not 585 00:29:19,441 --> 00:29:22,521 Speaker 2: based on their character. It was based on the country 586 00:29:22,561 --> 00:29:24,681 Speaker 2: they came from. So they got released because they the 587 00:29:24,721 --> 00:29:27,401 Speaker 2: countries they come from won't taken them back. And they 588 00:29:27,481 --> 00:29:29,641 Speaker 2: just happened to be the biggest bunch of rat bags 589 00:29:29,681 --> 00:29:32,561 Speaker 2: in the system generally. So you've got all the worst 590 00:29:32,561 --> 00:29:34,761 Speaker 2: people getting released because of a court decision, whereas all 591 00:29:34,801 --> 00:29:37,161 Speaker 2: the best people who own homes and have got jobs 592 00:29:37,161 --> 00:29:40,721 Speaker 2: and got families that would behave and did behave, didn't 593 00:29:40,721 --> 00:29:42,961 Speaker 2: come here because they misbehaved. They come here because of 594 00:29:42,961 --> 00:29:46,881 Speaker 2: who they know. We weren't beneficiaries of that High Court decision, 595 00:29:47,521 --> 00:29:50,841 Speaker 2: and so you get the sort of stigma here where 596 00:29:51,401 --> 00:29:53,761 Speaker 2: it's a well known thing set in here by officers 597 00:29:53,801 --> 00:29:56,401 Speaker 2: and staff and all of us that are that all 598 00:29:56,401 --> 00:29:59,601 Speaker 2: the wrong people get the visas, whereas in a prison 599 00:29:59,641 --> 00:30:01,641 Speaker 2: you've got to earn them, you know, so you get 600 00:30:01,641 --> 00:30:04,161 Speaker 2: out of prison, you've somehow earned that. This is not 601 00:30:04,201 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: an earned base cage. We just sit in there and 602 00:30:07,321 --> 00:30:10,001 Speaker 2: you either get deported or you get out because some 603 00:30:10,241 --> 00:30:12,601 Speaker 2: legal avenue is open to you. 604 00:30:13,521 --> 00:30:16,521 Speaker 1: Because in prison you get a release date. In your case, 605 00:30:17,081 --> 00:30:20,921 Speaker 1: the release date is when you submit to deportation. And 606 00:30:20,961 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: you've been fighting it all this time. 607 00:30:23,521 --> 00:30:25,881 Speaker 2: That's try you well. I mean, I think coersion just 608 00:30:25,921 --> 00:30:29,201 Speaker 2: got made illegal in relationships. So we're victims of coersion. 609 00:30:29,241 --> 00:30:30,481 Speaker 2: So we've got to sit there for a year and 610 00:30:30,561 --> 00:30:32,481 Speaker 2: year and year, and they ring you or come and 611 00:30:32,521 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: see you every thirteen weeks as after by law. Are 612 00:30:35,481 --> 00:30:37,841 Speaker 2: you ready to go yet? Do you wish to sign? No? 613 00:30:38,081 --> 00:30:40,921 Speaker 2: I'm still fighting it. And of course when you read 614 00:30:41,201 --> 00:30:44,361 Speaker 2: the voluntary removal paper that actually says on there, I 615 00:30:44,441 --> 00:30:48,081 Speaker 2: respectfully request the Minister of Home Affairs or Emigration to 616 00:30:48,281 --> 00:30:51,161 Speaker 2: remove me from Australia as soon as possible. So you're asking, 617 00:30:51,241 --> 00:30:53,841 Speaker 2: please can I go? Or please can you remove me 618 00:30:53,841 --> 00:30:56,041 Speaker 2: from my family? And like I said the first time 619 00:30:56,041 --> 00:30:57,841 Speaker 2: I read it, I am never going to sign a 620 00:30:57,841 --> 00:31:00,681 Speaker 2: document that actually asked the minister to remove me from 621 00:31:00,681 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 2: my family forever. Who the hell would sign that? Like, 622 00:31:04,281 --> 00:31:06,761 Speaker 2: I don't want to leave my family forever. They're devastated, 623 00:31:06,801 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: They've been devastated for five years. But because you won't 624 00:31:10,441 --> 00:31:13,681 Speaker 2: comply with that, then you're just sit here. You sit 625 00:31:13,721 --> 00:31:16,561 Speaker 2: there until you do or they eventually get sick of 626 00:31:16,601 --> 00:31:18,921 Speaker 2: you and they're forcible removal, which they don't like doing 627 00:31:19,001 --> 00:31:22,281 Speaker 2: because it's basically forcing you out of the country kicking 628 00:31:22,281 --> 00:31:24,681 Speaker 2: and screaming, And they don't do it a lot, but 629 00:31:24,721 --> 00:31:28,481 Speaker 2: they will do it. And if they know that's your stance, 630 00:31:28,521 --> 00:31:31,321 Speaker 2: then that's what they have to do. But you know, 631 00:31:32,201 --> 00:31:34,081 Speaker 2: has that for like a cohesive thing? I mean, I 632 00:31:34,081 --> 00:31:37,081 Speaker 2: can't earn my way out of here by reasonable behavior, 633 00:31:37,721 --> 00:31:41,281 Speaker 2: passing courses, moving to a less secure facility so that 634 00:31:41,281 --> 00:31:44,921 Speaker 2: I can say untrustworthy home. I can't do what you 635 00:31:44,961 --> 00:31:46,881 Speaker 2: can do in a prison. All I can do to 636 00:31:46,881 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: get out of here is give up and request to 637 00:31:49,241 --> 00:31:52,681 Speaker 2: be removed to a country. I don't know what a choice. 638 00:31:52,921 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: The hell would I'll never take that choice. Why would I? 639 00:31:56,201 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: I don't really want to sit in there forever, but 640 00:31:58,041 --> 00:32:00,641 Speaker 2: I don't want to ask them to take me away 641 00:32:00,681 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: from my family. That is just fundamentally emotionally impossible for 642 00:32:04,721 --> 00:32:08,321 Speaker 2: me to do and impossible for my family to not 643 00:32:08,361 --> 00:32:11,561 Speaker 2: so much tolerate. But they are fighting just as hard 644 00:32:11,761 --> 00:32:17,121 Speaker 2: for the last five years through videos on social media 645 00:32:17,161 --> 00:32:21,601 Speaker 2: campaigns with all my grandkids talking on video about Australia 646 00:32:21,721 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: is our home, you know, just over and over, just 647 00:32:24,161 --> 00:32:27,081 Speaker 2: letting me go viral. So everybody gets it that when 648 00:32:27,121 --> 00:32:31,241 Speaker 2: you've got fifty family members, you know, ten children, twenty 649 00:32:31,241 --> 00:32:34,761 Speaker 2: two grandchildren, three great grandchildren between you, who the hell's 650 00:32:34,761 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 2: going to walk away from that like willingly? When you 651 00:32:37,761 --> 00:32:40,561 Speaker 2: haven't done anything, Like we didn't come from prison to 652 00:32:40,561 --> 00:32:43,881 Speaker 2: this environment. Everyone else there did, so you sort of 653 00:32:43,921 --> 00:32:47,001 Speaker 2: expect that that's a continuation of your punishment. But this 654 00:32:47,081 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: is not a continuation of any punishment. We're Laura abiding. 655 00:32:51,721 --> 00:32:54,401 Speaker 2: Motorcycle clubs are legal to be a part of so 656 00:32:54,481 --> 00:32:55,121 Speaker 2: we're Laura. 657 00:32:54,961 --> 00:32:59,881 Speaker 1: Abiding because over four years or nearly five years now, 658 00:33:00,201 --> 00:33:03,241 Speaker 1: you've seen a whole range cast of characters come through there. 659 00:33:03,241 --> 00:33:05,361 Speaker 1: What sort of people have you been associated with? 660 00:33:06,441 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I mean it's a pot pourri of 661 00:33:10,681 --> 00:33:15,081 Speaker 2: the migration. Cohort is a microscopic version of what you'll 662 00:33:15,121 --> 00:33:18,361 Speaker 2: get in twenty suburbs around Melbourne. Just take ten people 663 00:33:18,401 --> 00:33:19,881 Speaker 2: out of every suburb and put them in there, and 664 00:33:19,881 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 2: that's what you've got. All nations, all nations, all safe 665 00:33:23,841 --> 00:33:26,841 Speaker 2: size and languages and not a lot of English. So yeah, 666 00:33:26,921 --> 00:33:29,161 Speaker 2: it's challenging, but it's okay, you know. I mean it's 667 00:33:29,201 --> 00:33:32,521 Speaker 2: like everything you may do with the predicament, we're handed 668 00:33:32,561 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: and of course we're lucky, but with such strong support 669 00:33:35,241 --> 00:33:37,641 Speaker 2: from our family, like we can live mentally outside of 670 00:33:37,641 --> 00:33:39,761 Speaker 2: this place and we can actually live our days in 671 00:33:39,801 --> 00:33:43,521 Speaker 2: the visiting room where regular visiting and spending most of 672 00:33:43,561 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 2: the day in the visiting room with your family is 673 00:33:45,321 --> 00:33:47,921 Speaker 2: sort of you know, it's just saving grace because you 674 00:33:48,041 --> 00:33:51,801 Speaker 2: keep those bonds going, it keeps you in family mode. 675 00:33:52,201 --> 00:33:54,521 Speaker 2: And then we just come back into this environment to 676 00:33:54,841 --> 00:33:58,081 Speaker 2: walk some laps and generate some kilometers. As you know, 677 00:33:58,121 --> 00:34:00,841 Speaker 2: we've spent the last four and a half years walking 678 00:34:00,881 --> 00:34:03,921 Speaker 2: around around a soccer pice to generate twenty six thousand 679 00:34:03,961 --> 00:34:06,681 Speaker 2: kilometers of steps through our Fit Better accounts to raise 680 00:34:06,721 --> 00:34:09,481 Speaker 2: money for charity, and that sort of kept us linked 681 00:34:09,481 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: to our family through a charity group. 682 00:34:11,321 --> 00:34:15,081 Speaker 1: So you've walked the equivalent of around the globe in 683 00:34:15,161 --> 00:34:16,561 Speaker 1: a small circle effectively. 684 00:34:17,201 --> 00:34:21,841 Speaker 2: Yeah, Basically, twenty thousand steps a day punches out to about, 685 00:34:22,121 --> 00:34:24,681 Speaker 2: you know, one hundred and twenty hundred and thirty kilometers 686 00:34:24,721 --> 00:34:28,921 Speaker 2: a week, rounds out at about six thousand k's a year. 687 00:34:30,081 --> 00:34:31,961 Speaker 2: Four or four and a half years later, we've on 688 00:34:32,001 --> 00:34:34,881 Speaker 2: the twenty third of March, we've banged past twenty two 689 00:34:34,921 --> 00:34:37,721 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty two k's, which is actually registered on 690 00:34:37,761 --> 00:34:41,841 Speaker 2: the Againness Book of Records as the World Runners Association 691 00:34:42,161 --> 00:34:45,681 Speaker 2: length of the lap around the globe on land. So 692 00:34:45,801 --> 00:34:47,921 Speaker 2: to qualify for that, if you were to do it physically, 693 00:34:48,321 --> 00:34:51,761 Speaker 2: you got across four continents and cover twenty six thousand 694 00:34:52,041 --> 00:34:55,561 Speaker 2: and you actually then become a part of the circumnavigators. 695 00:34:55,681 --> 00:34:57,281 Speaker 2: You get called and you get a T shirt and 696 00:34:57,321 --> 00:35:00,281 Speaker 2: a badge. And so technically we've done the kilometers, but 697 00:35:00,321 --> 00:35:03,281 Speaker 2: we haven't crossed any We haven't crossed the four continents, 698 00:35:03,721 --> 00:35:06,001 Speaker 2: although when you look at the different language groups here, 699 00:35:06,041 --> 00:35:06,641 Speaker 2: we certainly have. 700 00:35:06,841 --> 00:35:08,201 Speaker 1: You know, I was going to say, you've got enough 701 00:35:08,241 --> 00:35:10,921 Speaker 1: nationalities there to qualify somehow. But you've done it to 702 00:35:11,001 --> 00:35:13,561 Speaker 1: raise money for dementia, because while you've been in there, 703 00:35:13,561 --> 00:35:15,321 Speaker 1: your mother passed away from dementia. 704 00:35:16,001 --> 00:35:19,281 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Mum had got diagnosed not long before we had 705 00:35:19,281 --> 00:35:22,401 Speaker 2: our visas canceled. Perry and I were a primary careers. 706 00:35:22,641 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 2: We were getting into auto medicals every day and making 707 00:35:25,481 --> 00:35:27,801 Speaker 2: sure she had a lunch, making sure she had a dinner, 708 00:35:27,801 --> 00:35:30,441 Speaker 2: because you're starting to forget those things. And we were 709 00:35:30,481 --> 00:35:34,121 Speaker 2: doing volunteer work anyway. Perry was driving meals on wheels 710 00:35:34,401 --> 00:35:36,121 Speaker 2: who were people we met when we were sort of 711 00:35:36,441 --> 00:35:38,241 Speaker 2: the primary careers for our mum. We met all these 712 00:35:38,241 --> 00:35:40,521 Speaker 2: support groups that the bus that used to come to 713 00:35:40,601 --> 00:35:42,481 Speaker 2: the age care so unless she was in and take 714 00:35:42,521 --> 00:35:44,441 Speaker 2: them all to the library. And I was told to 715 00:35:44,521 --> 00:35:46,161 Speaker 2: Terry that one of the drivers one day and he said, mane, 716 00:35:46,161 --> 00:35:48,161 Speaker 2: we need drivers. You've got a truck license on the AGAs, 717 00:35:48,201 --> 00:35:49,841 Speaker 2: come on down. So I end up driving the community 718 00:35:49,841 --> 00:35:52,321 Speaker 2: bus taking them all to the library. And it wasn't 719 00:35:52,361 --> 00:35:54,681 Speaker 2: just mum and Dad's village, it was all the villages 720 00:35:54,721 --> 00:35:56,761 Speaker 2: in the area. So I was doing that. Perry was 721 00:35:56,841 --> 00:35:58,521 Speaker 2: driving meals on wheels because he got to know those 722 00:35:58,561 --> 00:36:01,201 Speaker 2: people through them coming to see mum. So I sort 723 00:36:01,201 --> 00:36:02,761 Speaker 2: of got us involved in a lot of that community 724 00:36:02,761 --> 00:36:08,081 Speaker 2: stuff as well as beings care. So then we got taken. 725 00:36:08,961 --> 00:36:11,361 Speaker 2: We were discussing with a family, like we've already had 726 00:36:11,361 --> 00:36:14,241 Speaker 2: a walking group going, just a chat group on what's happened. 727 00:36:14,521 --> 00:36:17,321 Speaker 2: We'd all lock in our fitbit steps every day is 728 00:36:17,361 --> 00:36:20,281 Speaker 2: a bit of a quasi competition. So one of the 729 00:36:20,281 --> 00:36:22,321 Speaker 2: girls in Adelaide thought, you know, I'm going to register 730 00:36:22,401 --> 00:36:26,041 Speaker 2: it and let's generate all these kilometers in the sponsors, Like, 731 00:36:26,121 --> 00:36:28,401 Speaker 2: let's get sponsors. Here'll be someone out there will give 732 00:36:28,401 --> 00:36:31,041 Speaker 2: you a cent for a kilometer or a cent for 733 00:36:31,041 --> 00:36:34,161 Speaker 2: one hundred kilometers. And we thought, yeah, okay, let's do it. 734 00:36:34,201 --> 00:36:35,921 Speaker 2: And we just keept walking and walking and walking here 735 00:36:35,961 --> 00:36:37,921 Speaker 2: thing and one day we're going to get out and 736 00:36:37,961 --> 00:36:40,481 Speaker 2: then we can go collect and we're never getting out 737 00:36:40,481 --> 00:36:43,601 Speaker 2: by the look of it. So we thought, well, here's 738 00:36:43,601 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 2: a target. Once it come to our attention that there 739 00:36:48,481 --> 00:36:51,041 Speaker 2: is this Circumnavigator club and if you do the twenty 740 00:36:51,041 --> 00:36:53,761 Speaker 2: six and thirty two k's you can hang your hat 741 00:36:53,801 --> 00:36:56,561 Speaker 2: on that, we thought, well, let's finish it there. Let's 742 00:36:56,601 --> 00:36:59,801 Speaker 2: clack the money and a little charity here. I've got 743 00:36:59,841 --> 00:37:03,481 Speaker 2: my prop already. It's Mackey Family Steps for the Dementia 744 00:37:03,521 --> 00:37:06,161 Speaker 2: of Australia. That was the other day at twenty five 745 00:37:06,201 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. It's over nearly thirty thousand dollars now. We've 746 00:37:09,521 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: raised with people just logging on and chucking a couple 747 00:37:12,481 --> 00:37:14,801 Speaker 2: of dollars at A couple of seventy year olds have 748 00:37:14,881 --> 00:37:17,241 Speaker 2: just walked around the globe in a prison. Never been 749 00:37:17,281 --> 00:37:21,161 Speaker 2: done before that we've been told anyway, So just a 750 00:37:21,241 --> 00:37:24,601 Speaker 2: bit of purpose, keep the family involved. Dementia's very big 751 00:37:24,601 --> 00:37:27,601 Speaker 2: in our family. Mom passed two years ago. While we're here, 752 00:37:28,121 --> 00:37:31,201 Speaker 2: we campaigned as best we can about transfers to get 753 00:37:31,241 --> 00:37:33,361 Speaker 2: back to Adelaide so that she could be brought to 754 00:37:33,441 --> 00:37:36,841 Speaker 2: us in the detention center there, which is very close 755 00:37:36,881 --> 00:37:39,561 Speaker 2: to where she lived, so she could have lived out 756 00:37:39,601 --> 00:37:41,721 Speaker 2: her last days by coming to visiting her sons every 757 00:37:41,801 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: day rather than us coming to visit her. We worked 758 00:37:44,001 --> 00:37:46,321 Speaker 2: for a couple of years before they denied it. They 759 00:37:46,401 --> 00:37:48,761 Speaker 2: denied it four times. We've applied because there is no 760 00:37:48,881 --> 00:37:52,161 Speaker 2: as I explained before, there's no pathway better to better 761 00:37:52,161 --> 00:37:56,041 Speaker 2: places here. There is no behavior driven pathway. So no 762 00:37:56,041 --> 00:37:59,281 Speaker 2: matter how good we were here and you know, reasonably 763 00:37:59,321 --> 00:38:01,121 Speaker 2: well and I can think quite well respected by the 764 00:38:01,161 --> 00:38:05,641 Speaker 2: Star getting permission to go back to Adelaide to aid health, 765 00:38:05,681 --> 00:38:08,001 Speaker 2: and we had lots of letters from her treating physicians 766 00:38:08,041 --> 00:38:11,001 Speaker 2: about how much it would do her good to be 767 00:38:11,081 --> 00:38:13,681 Speaker 2: seeing us. We never got there. We never got to 768 00:38:13,681 --> 00:38:15,681 Speaker 2: see her again, and she passed a couple of years ago, 769 00:38:15,761 --> 00:38:18,881 Speaker 2: but we kept on. We've got the money and now 770 00:38:18,881 --> 00:38:21,561 Speaker 2: it's sort of in her name that we've clocked the 771 00:38:21,641 --> 00:38:25,281 Speaker 2: miles and now we're reading the money, and we've had 772 00:38:25,321 --> 00:38:28,001 Speaker 2: planned on DEMNSA Australia. We're going to sound a representative 773 00:38:28,041 --> 00:38:29,841 Speaker 2: and here so we could actually do a proper presentation 774 00:38:30,401 --> 00:38:33,121 Speaker 2: involving the staff here who have been real supportive on 775 00:38:33,161 --> 00:38:35,401 Speaker 2: this and actually often come out and walk with us, 776 00:38:37,361 --> 00:38:40,281 Speaker 2: and so we can actually sort of give this place 777 00:38:40,321 --> 00:38:42,201 Speaker 2: something to hang us hat on, you know, not that 778 00:38:42,281 --> 00:38:45,761 Speaker 2: it does anything positive for anyone except you know, keep 779 00:38:45,801 --> 00:38:48,521 Speaker 2: your healthy until your bus arrives. At least it would 780 00:38:48,561 --> 00:38:52,041 Speaker 2: be seen that their programs and activity staff supported and 781 00:38:52,561 --> 00:38:57,561 Speaker 2: participated in a fairly long term fundraising target that got achieved, 782 00:38:57,761 --> 00:38:59,841 Speaker 2: you know, and they helped it, and so we thought, 783 00:38:59,881 --> 00:39:01,681 Speaker 2: you know, you come in on it. You can all 784 00:39:01,681 --> 00:39:04,641 Speaker 2: be a part of the presentation. But you know, as 785 00:39:04,681 --> 00:39:06,481 Speaker 2: you well, we've got days less, so we're not going 786 00:39:06,521 --> 00:39:07,641 Speaker 2: to be able to do that. We're not going to 787 00:39:07,641 --> 00:39:07,961 Speaker 2: make it. 788 00:39:09,121 --> 00:39:13,361 Speaker 1: So what happens from here? You've exhausted all avenues of appeal. 789 00:39:13,481 --> 00:39:14,601 Speaker 1: What happens next? 790 00:39:15,641 --> 00:39:18,321 Speaker 2: Basically we wait they come for us. The family's doing 791 00:39:18,321 --> 00:39:22,641 Speaker 2: its best, they're lobbying the ministers involved that they're very emailing. 792 00:39:23,441 --> 00:39:28,281 Speaker 2: We've got this charity group lobbying the minister, the social 793 00:39:28,321 --> 00:39:30,881 Speaker 2: media campaigns that they're trying to run to alert the 794 00:39:30,881 --> 00:39:34,161 Speaker 2: minister that this is a five generation, fifty five strong 795 00:39:34,201 --> 00:39:38,281 Speaker 2: family that you're actually destroying. He may probably isn't aware 796 00:39:38,321 --> 00:39:43,001 Speaker 2: of that because we're under that cancelation minister or cancelation 797 00:39:43,121 --> 00:39:45,681 Speaker 2: where nobody has to read our file. It's a non 798 00:39:45,721 --> 00:39:48,681 Speaker 2: compallable order. So we can request the minister read our 799 00:39:48,721 --> 00:39:51,081 Speaker 2: file and intervene if he sees some value in us, 800 00:39:51,721 --> 00:39:53,881 Speaker 2: but he can also refuse to read it. And of course, 801 00:39:54,321 --> 00:39:56,681 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes it may be a safer option to 802 00:39:56,681 --> 00:39:58,961 Speaker 2: not read something that you might find it's too compelling. 803 00:39:59,361 --> 00:40:02,561 Speaker 2: And so you know, everybody, we know, hundreds of people 804 00:40:02,561 --> 00:40:06,321 Speaker 2: have been emailing, you know, these ministers to say, look, 805 00:40:06,841 --> 00:40:08,681 Speaker 2: just open it. You know, if you open it and 806 00:40:08,721 --> 00:40:11,081 Speaker 2: read it, you may think different. There is a story 807 00:40:11,081 --> 00:40:14,441 Speaker 2: in there about fifty three years in this country, fifty 808 00:40:14,761 --> 00:40:19,121 Speaker 2: seven members of a family, five generations, heaths of grandchildren, 809 00:40:19,761 --> 00:40:23,761 Speaker 2: a lot of Aboriginal grandchildren and great grandchildren in our 810 00:40:23,801 --> 00:40:27,801 Speaker 2: blood lines, deeply entrenched in the community, involved in sporting 811 00:40:27,841 --> 00:40:32,641 Speaker 2: clubs for thirty years, you know, awards, recommendations for fundraising 812 00:40:32,721 --> 00:40:36,161 Speaker 2: before we came here for breast cancer. Family still in 813 00:40:36,201 --> 00:40:42,081 Speaker 2: deeply involved in Red Tree Foundation for fundraising, facids and 814 00:40:41,841 --> 00:40:45,081 Speaker 2: and and death. My grandson was still born two years ago, 815 00:40:45,161 --> 00:40:49,321 Speaker 2: young Zen, And so we move on to that and 816 00:40:49,361 --> 00:40:53,521 Speaker 2: make that family tragedy a part of what we do 817 00:40:53,641 --> 00:40:59,521 Speaker 2: for funds now fundraising now. So yeah, that's that's where 818 00:40:59,521 --> 00:40:59,881 Speaker 2: we're at. 819 00:41:00,601 --> 00:41:03,481 Speaker 1: It's sad no matter what, it just doesn't seem no 820 00:41:03,521 --> 00:41:06,281 Speaker 1: matter what you put forward, there is this absence of 821 00:41:06,361 --> 00:41:10,401 Speaker 1: natural justice in the whole process which counts against you. 822 00:41:10,441 --> 00:41:13,201 Speaker 1: If you fail that character test. No matter how much 823 00:41:13,241 --> 00:41:16,361 Speaker 1: rehabilitation you've done, no matter how many good works you do, 824 00:41:17,161 --> 00:41:20,721 Speaker 1: you're always a biki. You're always an ex criminal and 825 00:41:20,761 --> 00:41:22,561 Speaker 1: we don't want you in this country. It's a very 826 00:41:23,201 --> 00:41:24,321 Speaker 1: bitter pill to swallow. 827 00:41:25,121 --> 00:41:28,041 Speaker 2: Look, it's the pathway you get taken down or pushed 828 00:41:28,041 --> 00:41:31,321 Speaker 2: down or led down because all the stuff that we 829 00:41:31,481 --> 00:41:36,241 Speaker 2: have that are countervailing situations to the actual bad character. 830 00:41:36,361 --> 00:41:38,721 Speaker 2: So bad character is not the question in this. There 831 00:41:38,761 --> 00:41:42,961 Speaker 2: are murderers, rapists, child molesters that are released from detention 832 00:41:43,081 --> 00:41:46,521 Speaker 2: centers every week because they get the opportunity to go 833 00:41:46,641 --> 00:41:49,561 Speaker 2: to the AAT or the AART. Now they administrative review 834 00:41:49,681 --> 00:41:53,441 Speaker 2: tribunal with all their character references, with all their family, 835 00:41:53,561 --> 00:41:57,281 Speaker 2: with all their rehabilitation, and all those things are presented, 836 00:41:57,361 --> 00:42:00,281 Speaker 2: and if it's compelling, then that judge can actually go, 837 00:42:00,361 --> 00:42:04,041 Speaker 2: you know what, I revoke your cancelation and I reissue 838 00:42:04,041 --> 00:42:06,241 Speaker 2: your visa because you've proven that you're not a danger 839 00:42:06,241 --> 00:42:09,761 Speaker 2: of the community to me with all this evidence, and 840 00:42:10,001 --> 00:42:12,081 Speaker 2: we believe we would have a very strong chance of 841 00:42:12,121 --> 00:42:15,561 Speaker 2: that being our outcome if we were granted the opportunity 842 00:42:15,601 --> 00:42:18,521 Speaker 2: to go to that tribunal. But when you're canceled under 843 00:42:18,561 --> 00:42:20,681 Speaker 2: a certain part of the five oh one Act, the 844 00:42:20,681 --> 00:42:24,441 Speaker 2: Ministerial cancelation, it's written in your cancelation you are denied 845 00:42:24,481 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 2: fair and natural justice. Like there's no hiding it. It's 846 00:42:27,041 --> 00:42:29,441 Speaker 2: not like it's secret, it's written in your thing. You 847 00:42:29,521 --> 00:42:33,561 Speaker 2: cannot apply for any tribunial, You cannot apply for revocation 848 00:42:33,761 --> 00:42:37,201 Speaker 2: because you are denied fair and natural justice because the minister, 849 00:42:37,761 --> 00:42:40,481 Speaker 2: one man, a politician, can decide, he may not be 850 00:42:40,561 --> 00:42:44,601 Speaker 2: legally trained, that none of the countervailing situation will change 851 00:42:44,601 --> 00:42:49,241 Speaker 2: his mind. Whereas as we know, ten twenty thirty percent 852 00:42:49,441 --> 00:42:51,881 Speaker 2: of these cancelations, when they go to a proper court 853 00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:55,441 Speaker 2: a tribunal, they do get found that they found wanting, 854 00:42:55,721 --> 00:42:58,601 Speaker 2: they were wrong, the cancelation was wrong. It gets reversed. 855 00:42:59,241 --> 00:43:01,641 Speaker 2: And I read those cases, and our lawyers read those cases. 856 00:43:01,681 --> 00:43:04,841 Speaker 2: They go sheepers, you know, like when you stack up 857 00:43:04,881 --> 00:43:08,321 Speaker 2: some only just won a murderer, double murderer, even against 858 00:43:08,921 --> 00:43:12,721 Speaker 2: an narcotic conviction forty five years ago. Like who's the 859 00:43:12,721 --> 00:43:16,881 Speaker 2: more bigger danger to the community In reality, that's. 860 00:43:16,681 --> 00:43:19,481 Speaker 1: A very good question, Tom. Unfortunately, you're going to have 861 00:43:19,521 --> 00:43:23,361 Speaker 1: to probably fight this fight from New Zealand, and you 862 00:43:23,401 --> 00:43:26,401 Speaker 1: won't stop because your family is here. And let me say, 863 00:43:26,401 --> 00:43:28,081 Speaker 1: I'm very sorry that it's come to this because I 864 00:43:28,801 --> 00:43:30,721 Speaker 1: know in my heart who you are, and a lot 865 00:43:30,761 --> 00:43:34,521 Speaker 1: of other people do as well. And unfortunately politics has intervened. 866 00:43:35,281 --> 00:43:38,441 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's true, Adam. You know, you just can't 867 00:43:38,481 --> 00:43:41,081 Speaker 2: make someone look at your file if there's a non 868 00:43:41,081 --> 00:43:43,921 Speaker 2: compellable order. We we just can't force the issue where 869 00:43:44,041 --> 00:43:47,521 Speaker 2: someone everyone has had eyes on it, believes in us, 870 00:43:48,081 --> 00:43:50,361 Speaker 2: but we can't find a way to force the very 871 00:43:50,401 --> 00:43:52,001 Speaker 2: people that need to look at it look at it. 872 00:43:52,241 --> 00:43:54,241 Speaker 2: So it is what it is. We can we'll get 873 00:43:54,241 --> 00:43:58,001 Speaker 2: forcibly removed, and then we can sit in New Zealand 874 00:43:58,241 --> 00:44:01,201 Speaker 2: and find reacquaint ourselves with the country we don't remember, 875 00:44:01,761 --> 00:44:04,721 Speaker 2: and hope that somewhere on the line, if labour stays 876 00:44:04,721 --> 00:44:07,081 Speaker 2: in got for a couple of terms, which is looking 877 00:44:07,121 --> 00:44:10,961 Speaker 2: like they might, that somewhere someone introduces an adjustment to 878 00:44:11,001 --> 00:44:13,281 Speaker 2: the five oh one where there is a reevaluation on 879 00:44:13,321 --> 00:44:15,521 Speaker 2: some of these deportations that some of these people can 880 00:44:15,601 --> 00:44:18,841 Speaker 2: actually apply from overseas. And then that file gets open, 881 00:44:19,161 --> 00:44:21,521 Speaker 2: and we think that one day if our file eve 882 00:44:21,641 --> 00:44:24,001 Speaker 2: got opened and someone looked at it, it will be 883 00:44:24,041 --> 00:44:26,441 Speaker 2: looked upon as we probably should have had that opportunity 884 00:44:26,481 --> 00:44:27,121 Speaker 2: while we were here. 885 00:44:27,441 --> 00:44:29,401 Speaker 1: I've got to ask you back in nineteen seventy seven, 886 00:44:29,481 --> 00:44:34,201 Speaker 1: the prison psychologist said that you have the descendants. Was 887 00:44:34,241 --> 00:44:37,521 Speaker 1: the pitvot around which you had built your life. Do 888 00:44:37,601 --> 00:44:38,321 Speaker 1: you regret that? 889 00:44:38,441 --> 00:44:44,361 Speaker 2: Now? Look, you can only regret that legislation that changed 890 00:44:44,801 --> 00:44:47,961 Speaker 2: what that meant to me has impacted on my life. 891 00:44:48,401 --> 00:44:50,561 Speaker 2: The club life for me has been all that family. 892 00:44:51,121 --> 00:44:53,441 Speaker 2: There's lots of family involved in it, my brothers and 893 00:44:53,881 --> 00:44:57,801 Speaker 2: son in law's sons. So the actual essence of club 894 00:44:57,841 --> 00:45:02,641 Speaker 2: life is just family driven. It's honorable. What has changed 895 00:45:02,721 --> 00:45:06,041 Speaker 2: is how it's being perceived in legislation. Nothing that I've done, 896 00:45:06,241 --> 00:45:08,921 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I haven't done anything that's actually 897 00:45:08,921 --> 00:45:11,361 Speaker 2: created in my situation here. I've just been the same 898 00:45:11,401 --> 00:45:14,401 Speaker 2: guy I was when I got out of prison forty 899 00:45:14,401 --> 00:45:17,201 Speaker 2: five years ago. I haven't been arrested or broke the law. 900 00:45:17,281 --> 00:45:20,401 Speaker 2: Since I've been the same person. The legislation has morphed 901 00:45:20,401 --> 00:45:23,921 Speaker 2: into something else. Immigration legislation has morphed into something else. 902 00:45:24,281 --> 00:45:26,281 Speaker 2: And now I'm being punished for something I already did 903 00:45:26,281 --> 00:45:29,641 Speaker 2: the punishment for. And the meanwhile, I didn't change. Just 904 00:45:29,721 --> 00:45:32,881 Speaker 2: the words on the paper that judge me have changed. 905 00:45:33,321 --> 00:45:35,401 Speaker 2: And now I've got to pay. And now I can 906 00:45:35,481 --> 00:45:37,641 Speaker 2: sit up in New Zealand and hope that more words 907 00:45:37,641 --> 00:45:39,921 Speaker 2: come onto the paper later that give me a right 908 00:45:40,001 --> 00:45:42,561 Speaker 2: to have another crack at it and come back and 909 00:45:42,601 --> 00:45:53,681 Speaker 2: hopefully that's before all of my eighteen seventeen grand kits. 910 00:45:53,721 --> 00:45:58,561 Speaker 1: All right, I know how a feeling mate. I think 911 00:45:58,561 --> 00:46:05,401 Speaker 1: we'll leave it there. Tom, Thanks Mane. That's Tom mackey, 912 00:46:05,881 --> 00:46:09,041 Speaker 1: former president of the Descendant's Motorcycle Club, inside the Broad 913 00:46:09,081 --> 00:46:14,041 Speaker 1: Meadows Detention Center facing deportation, as he says, how many 914 00:46:14,041 --> 00:46:17,521 Speaker 1: times can you be punished for the one crime he did? 915 00:46:17,521 --> 00:46:21,481 Speaker 1: The crime back in the seventies, did his time rehabilitated. 916 00:46:22,121 --> 00:46:26,201 Speaker 1: His continuing offense was to associate with the Descendant's motorcycle 917 00:46:26,241 --> 00:46:28,841 Speaker 1: club that's been now used against him. And I think 918 00:46:28,841 --> 00:46:32,601 Speaker 1: this absence of natural justice is repugnant and I certainly 919 00:46:32,641 --> 00:46:37,281 Speaker 1: don't regret supporting the struggle to strike down unfair laws. 920 00:46:37,841 --> 00:46:40,561 Speaker 1: Let's hope there is some turn of justice at the 921 00:46:40,641 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: end of this story, but right now looks pretty bleak. 922 00:46:43,721 --> 00:46:45,721 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. This has been real crime with 923 00:46:45,761 --> 00:46:47,521 Speaker 1: Adam shand thanks for listening.