1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: If somebody was operating in the moltuary and had to 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: use any sort of power instrument, then the noise would 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: reverberate into the court room. I remember one hospital, the 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: moultuary was actually the Hospital Chapel, which had stained glass windows. 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Eerie in a sense doing an autopsy illuminating through stained 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: glass windows in God's waiting room. I once had to 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: help on a film set where they were doing an 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: autopsy on an alien. 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Ruhle. This is Life and Crimes. Today. We 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 2: have a special guest in our studio at South Bank, 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: and that is Professor David Ransom. Tell us a little 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: bit about yourself. 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: So I recently retired from the Victorian Institut of Forensic Medicine, 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: where I'd been there since nineteen eighty eight, and I've 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: now moved across to Monash University, where I'm a clinical 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: professor in the Department of Forensic Medicine. 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: I always taught. 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: In the university, but that was as an honorary position 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: while i was working as a forensic pathologies But now 20 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: I've moved across to help with a teaching program there. 21 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: That is perfect word perfect. Now, before we get to 22 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: the gory details of that. I think we should warn 23 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: the audience that you also have an interest in medieval dancing. 24 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm at medieval raisns dancing. My wife runs a early 25 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: music dance sort of thing. Well she sort of runs it. 26 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: She's part of the group that runs it. And they 27 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: do period dancing in that sort of Elizabethan Renaissance style, 28 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: but also some European styles. They are a little Baroque 29 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: subgroup and all kinds of exciting things like that. And 30 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: you sing in a choir, I do sing indeed, yes. 31 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: Well, you know you're starting to sound like somebody that 32 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: a BBC scriptwriter made up for Midsummer. 33 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: Murders, exactly what a show. Midsurs always gets me. I 34 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: love the scenery, but it's always been March is probably 35 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: the worst show to describe how detectives actually work. 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: Of course it is in that sense, but anyway, and 37 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: there are far more murders in Midsummer than any other 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: any other town in ther world. 39 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: It was a bit like Blue Healers. I think he's 40 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: got the same sort of feeling. 41 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 2: Strike right, So you've come to us today, so I 42 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: think because you have worked in one way or another 43 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: on dozens of hundreds really of cases, many of which 44 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: the public had some memory of because they've been notorious. 45 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: Case others some of us will have forgotten because we 46 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: forget things. But I've got no particular hierarchy here, but 47 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: some names leaped to mind. The Rockefeller case, this is 48 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 2: fifteen years ago. 49 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 1: Which I don't think I dealt with specifically with the 50 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: Rockefeller case. I think that was one of the other 51 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: pathologies who dealt with that case. But there was certainly 52 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: quite a few cases within the sort of you know 53 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: that the era of those sort of police shootings and 54 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: the early nineties involved with with those and the Plice shootings. Yes, 55 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: and then later on, of course, with many of the 56 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: stories that you covered and wrote about in the Underbelly series. 57 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: What a few of those you did. Now, the police 58 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: shootings are an interesting subject. What do you recall that ere? 59 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: What stands out for you about the place shootings, any 60 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: particular ones. 61 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: It's it's an interesting sort of sequence. I do remember 62 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: right at the beginning, I think there was an escape 63 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: prisoner Nelson who I was, who I attended at the 64 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: scene of his shooting, and I remember it was in 65 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: the very early well for me, the early days of 66 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: the sort of homicide squad in my involvement with them 67 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: when they still have it, I think a chief inspector 68 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: in charge, which then all my management structure changed. And 69 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: I do remember thinking back and you know, comparing my 70 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: experiences in the UK, where by the time I came 71 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: to do that sort of work in the UK in 72 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: the sort of late eighties, everything I've become super controlled, 73 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: super organized, you know, clear path and walk down everywhere 74 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: and wearing all the full gear. 75 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: And so on. 76 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: And I arrived in Melbourne in eighty eight to discover 77 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't quite like that. 78 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: It was still. 79 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: Had that older field I'm looking changed dramatically. It's a 80 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: fabulous system now. I had to say, I think some 81 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: of the you know, the work that's done at that 82 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: policing level and those initial investigations is fantastic. But in 83 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: those days it certainly took me back to sort of 84 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: my experiences as a medical student when I helped out 85 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: the pathologist when it was much more sort of casual 86 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: and people wandering around me. I arrived in the old mortar. 87 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember the old industry extension 88 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: going to bring that up, yes, but yeah, I was 89 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: there for only that remember the same goodness. Yes, and 90 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: the waft into the courtroom, Well, that's right, because the 91 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: court room backed directly onto the moultuary. 92 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: It did. 93 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: And they had these fumigating odor reducing gas cylinders in 94 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: the corridors which would go off at at sort of intervals, 95 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: which had this sort of slightly oily FuG bit like 96 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: a nightclub sort of thing is to fill the corridors, 97 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: and if somebody was operating in the mortuary and had 98 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: to use any sort of power instrument, then the noise 99 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: would reverberate into the courtroom next door. 100 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: It did. It was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. I've said 101 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: to some strange things there, and it was sort of 102 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 2: was creepy, and it was quite horrifying in some ways. 103 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: Yes, I think, I mean forenshic mytholdies of course have 104 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: a slightly askew view of those things because you sort 105 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: of live with it. But I have to say that, 106 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, it was certainly taking me back a few 107 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: decades when I walked to that mortuary for the first 108 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: time in the beginning of eighty eight, and indeed I 109 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: came over because the new institute was being built and 110 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: I was being employed. 111 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: You were part of part of that new process. 112 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: So it was in one sense of a community perspective, 113 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: it was horrifying and that's really why the government at 114 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: the time invested on a change they had to make. 115 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: But having said that, I've worked in some very interesting 116 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: martuaries in other places, have you. I remember one hospital 117 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: the mortuary was actually the hospital chapel which had stained 118 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: glass windows and tessellated tiled flaws. And oh that was 119 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: I think it was in Western super May I say, look, 120 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: it was scrupulously clean that the forensic technician scientists we 121 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: had working with working with me was an ex I 122 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: think at armed British Army commando, and he had spit 123 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: and polish really in his veins, and he kept the 124 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: place absolutely scrupulously clean and beautiful. But it was somewhat 125 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: eerie in a sense doing an autopsy illuminating through stained 126 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: glass windows. 127 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 2: In God's waiting room. Interesting. That's that is interesting. This 128 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: that old place at Flinders Straight Extension. It could have 129 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: been nineteen forty seven, but. 130 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: You realized that the building before that was built out 131 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: over the Yarraw River and drained directly into the Yarraw. 132 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 2: You beauty, Yeah, so when when the blood and guts 133 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: went down the plug. 134 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: Hole, they went straight into the river originally, so that's 135 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: the way, that's the building before that, and before that 136 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: I think they were down I'm not one hundred set sure. 137 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: I think some more closer to Port Melbourne and there 138 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: they were had that one stage. I think they had 139 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: to have bodies suspended in order to prevent the rats 140 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: getting at them. And there's quite a lot of interesting 141 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: historical information about these early mortuaries in Melbourne. In fact, 142 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: what happened was in the early days, coroner's inquest tended 143 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: to be held in hotels and bars. Now the reason 144 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: for this is interesting because of course in the early 145 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: days there was no refrigeration, so if they police needed 146 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: to have a body stored for coroner's inquest, wherever they 147 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: take it, they'd take it to the place that had 148 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: a seller where they could keep things cool. And the 149 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: old juries, the old coroner's juries, when they were coroner's juries, 150 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: used to have to come and inspect the body because 151 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: the inquest was held almost at the same time. And 152 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lovely description I think in one 153 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: of the letters to the difftent Governor or whatever it was, 154 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: saying that the coroner outrageously held an inquest in the 155 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: brothel next door and very upset because he couldn't get 156 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: a drink at the bar. So sort of wonderful early days. 157 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: But I think every publican in Melbourne had to store 158 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: a body brought by the police for the sum of 159 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: one pound. And yeah, so I think that that's the 160 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: sort of the background of that early history of freezing mythology. 161 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: Oh that's wonderful and it has changed a lot so 162 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: and you've been at the vanguard of it anyway. 163 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: Well, certainly, I think the issue where it was realized 164 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: and this came a little bit out of the Chamberlain 165 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: inquiry and because Indy Chairman, because John Phillips, the Chief 166 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: Justice had of course been Lindy's councilor barrister in those trials, 167 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of issues around the forensic science. 168 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: As you will remember, well a professor Plucar as apprentsic pathologist. 169 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: It did a lot of work on that case with 170 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: John Phillips and they really formed a sort of group 171 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: to say, look, you know, the things are you know, 172 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: there might be problems there, but there's certainly problems in 173 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: terms of facilities in Victoria, and they went to the 174 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: then the government at the time and looked at getting 175 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: a proper system put in place. And that's the background 176 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: to where the institute came from, and indeed the new 177 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: Coroner's Court and the new coroner system came from. 178 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: It's a good thing and I've recalled during my time 179 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: in newspapers seeing it evolve, and it's certainly a lot 180 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 2: more pleasant now than it was. 181 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: Yes, look, I mean I think doing those sorts of 182 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: death investigations is always interesting and challenging. And look, you 183 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: just have to cope with whatever you get, whether it's 184 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: a decomposed individual, where's a body that's been contaminated with 185 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: noxious chemicals or whatever it might be. You've just got 186 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: to be able to deal with all of those eventualities. 187 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: Now, we don't want to get too awful, but you 188 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: must have been called in to bodies or the remains. 189 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: You know, bones are collection of bones, sometimes of you know, 190 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: people that have been dead for decades, some of them. 191 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: Can you recall, particularly now the Jennifer Tanner case where 192 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: this is not actually her, this is the mind shaft? Yes, 193 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: can you recall that? 194 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: I know the case well, but I don't I don't 195 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: think I was involved in that particular examination, but I 196 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: was certainly sort of included some of the discussions that 197 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: took place around that event at the time in that 198 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: very interesting circumstances. But I think the point is that 199 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 1: to deal with remains in different states of preservation, each 200 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: type of remains has its own particular problems, and the 201 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: first thing you've got to do is deal with identity. 202 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: An identity can be a really difficult problem. I mean, 203 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: we really dealt with a case a few years ago. 204 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: It's been published now, but as someone who had gone 205 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: missing in I think it was nineteen twenty eight and 206 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: the skeleton was found only I think in twenty eighteen 207 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: ninety seveing that down at Sandy Point. Yeah, so there 208 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: was a whole variety of work done by our forensic anthropologists. 209 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: Now so Professor Soren Blau the same problem. They basically 210 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: did that and the anthropology work on this. We had 211 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: dentists involved, We did, you know, carbon dating, We did 212 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: all kinds of really historical analysis and eventually of course 213 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: using the FIG system to do the genealogy to try 214 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: to identify which. 215 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: It was a young a youngish man I think he's 216 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: gone washed into the bay from the wartime. 217 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: I think he been swimming with his family at a 218 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: picnic at moretime, went missing, and I think they had 219 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: found a jaw A few weeks later. The jaw had 220 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: gone through the corn's process has been confirmed as his. 221 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: I think his father identified his dental work in and 222 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: so when this skeleton was then found, you know, a 223 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 1: few years ago the jaw was missing and allfered together nicly, 224 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: but at the time we did not know who that was. 225 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,319 Speaker 1: And it took the whole process took about five years 226 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: from beginning to end, a lot of it done by 227 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: historians piecing together the story. 228 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: This story spans a very long life, meaning from nineteen 229 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: twenty eight, yeah, until just the other day exactly, a 230 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: long long time. It is absolutely in the nineties, that's right, 231 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 2: and I mean a historical case. 232 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: A lot that are fascinating. I mean we did we 233 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: dealt with, of course near Kelly's remains as part of 234 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: the you know, originally he was buried at the old 235 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: Melbourne Jail with his execution. Then when that was all 236 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: closed off and opened up and so on, all the 237 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: remains from the prisoners there were taken to Pendridge and 238 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: buried there, and then when Pentrance was redeveloped a few 239 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: years ago, they all had to be sorted out again 240 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: and during that time we actually there was also the 241 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: separate story of the skull to be on display in 242 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: the old Melbourne Jail. 243 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: Which the funny boys who had stolen the skull thought 244 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 2: they played health for decades and skull absolutely so the 245 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: Prime Minister's son one of them. Perhaps I'll leave that 246 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: to you. I don't know he's still alive. That the 247 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: Prime Minister isn't a right, okay. 248 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: So I mean these are historical cases and people say, well, 249 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: why do you do historical cases. You've got current workload 250 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: to get on with. True, but what these cases do 251 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: is they helped build investigative teams where we're using multiple 252 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: skills with it's a dentist, the anthropologist and DNA specialist, 253 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: the pathologists. We're bringing all these people together with good 254 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: historians and so on. And you know, building and working 255 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: with integrated teams gives an enormous degree of additional training 256 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: and facility to deal with problem cases. And that's why 257 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: we do it because it really builds the skills that 258 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: we need. So you know, if there's a remains are 259 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: found in some forest and it relates to a historical 260 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: criminal matter that goes back, you know, decades. We have 261 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: the capacity now to really hone in on these cases 262 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: and actually to do some interesting increasing ability to solve 263 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: some this casework. 264 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: So having that head start, even you know, simple things 265 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: like we've found remains in the Black forests and Canton. 266 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: Let's say, yeah, and if contemporary newspaper reports say like 267 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 2: Joe and the bush Range and we're meeting and such 268 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: and such a date, and you know you found a 269 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 2: belt buckle yep, and these and there's someone who knows 270 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: about belt buckles will say that was made on this day. 271 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: Therefore it can be him or might not be. 272 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: There was heaps of interesting stuff around there, you know, 273 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: there's scarves and bags and all that sort of stuff 274 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: in the police museum and things like that. It's all 275 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: kind and people I think forget now that the ability 276 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: to do things with DNA is changing. You know, when 277 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: we started off in the very early days, back in 278 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: the case in Leicester, you know, looking at all the 279 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: men in an area and seeing if they could be 280 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: a suspect in this rape mode or whatever. Just the 281 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: ability to do that. Now it's less about just who, 282 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: but also now with what actually happened. And also we 283 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: can now dig far more, not look at just a 284 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: nuclear DNA, we're looking at mitochondrial DNA which we can 285 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: get out of very very poor quality material. And also 286 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: now the ability to take the next stages, which is 287 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: the genealogy linked DNA, the FIG systems which allows you 288 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: to actually look at a sign aample and say, well, 289 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: we have no one on our database, but I wonder 290 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: if someone's put their family information on a genealogy database, 291 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: and if we compare it with that, we may find 292 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: that this person who put their data around the database 293 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: is a third cousin of somebody. Now that's been used 294 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: for quite a lot of identification case work, but not 295 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: so much for criminal yet. 296 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: But the big one in America, Yeah, big. 297 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: One in America, Yeah, absolutely, but not so much in Australia. 298 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: There are a lot of ethical issues and some quite 299 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: complex privacy issues which before you start going out and 300 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, swinging into people's houses saying well we think 301 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: you're the third cousin once removed of X, Y and Z, 302 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean they may not even know this individual, you know, 303 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: so you've got to be very careful about how those 304 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: things are used. But of course the next stage is 305 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: the phenotyping. So you get the sample from a scene 306 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: or whatever it might be, and say, well, nobody's on 307 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: our database. What can we say about the person whose 308 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: DNA this is. Can we tell something about them? Can 309 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: you tell the color there is? What color here they've got? 310 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: Are they going to be tall or short? And there's nothing, 311 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: there's nothing absolutely rigid about this. It's only sort of 312 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: like percentage possibilities of them having these characteristics. But they 313 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: might have, for example, a genetic marker for a disease, 314 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: so they might be more likely to have disease X, 315 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: which means that you're narrowing down and mean what police 316 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: are always challenged with is this sort of vast Well, 317 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: it's like the old story, you know, we think the 318 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: person went off in a white van. How many white 319 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: vans are that? Okay, if you say white vans with 320 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: an unusual European tire that was imported from Italy, that 321 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: starts to really narrow yourself down. And you can do 322 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: the same sort of thing with human DNA. I might 323 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: not be able to get a direct match identification, but 324 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: you might say, we can we doubt the other ones 325 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: and just allow the police to focus on a more 326 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: selective group that's likely to contain our offender or alleged defender. 327 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: Now, did you do work that was connected with the 328 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: common Chain case or and or the Mister Gruel case, 329 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: which either is or isn't. 330 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yes, So there's a lot of stuff in 331 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: that particular space, and a number of your colleagues look 332 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: to those those sort of scenarios. Look, I was involved 333 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: in that matter, and certainly you know it's still an 334 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: unresolved case, and so you have to be very careful 335 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: about the evidence space in relation to that. But those cases, 336 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: I think, the cases where you're dealing with children who 337 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: have been have been killed, I think is something that's 338 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: certainly deeply emotive and emotional for anyone working on the case. 339 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: And I think it's often people say to you things like, well, 340 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: how do you feel about having to deal with children 341 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: or babies? And I suppose a's a doctory. You know, 342 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: you are familiar with dealing with all kinds of people 343 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: who can be your patience, and I often feel that 344 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: it's actually much easier dealing with people who had deceased 345 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: in that sense that he's dealing with the living. However, 346 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: friends of pathologies do have to meet and sit and 347 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: talk with families quite regularly, so we are engaged that level. 348 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: For me, it was always if there was a victim 349 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: who was the same age as one of my children, 350 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, it sort of came home a little bit 351 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: if they weren't well. I'm still obviously deeply aware of 352 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: the emotional issues for the family and so on. 353 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 2: But it didn't. 354 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: It was you were able to separate yourself a bit, 355 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: and that's important for the job. 356 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: Is there anything about that case that stands out for you? 357 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: I think less about the pathology in that case. What 358 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: I thought was fascinating that case were things where, for example, 359 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: you know, there were suggestions that you know, doctors should 360 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: be thinking about whether to report any patience they'd had 361 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: who might be I think you remember the Medical Board 362 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: wrote to doctors saying, you know, if you're dealing with 363 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: the patient and there's a real public safety issue where 364 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: a person might be dangerous to others, then you know 365 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: the issue about privacy and confidentiality can be relaxed. I 366 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: can't remember that sort of thing being expressed as clearly 367 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: as that in other cases. So I think that it 368 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: captured what I call the concern of the community and 369 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: the concern the professionals in a way other cases didn't, 370 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: you know. And I compare it with say, the Underworld 371 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: cases which you wrote and rebodal and and so on, 372 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: where most people in the community are very disconnected from that, 373 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's a nice little limits to another world, 374 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: whereas where those cases was cruel and things, and there 375 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: was this sense of, well, we're all vulnerable. 376 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: In a way. 377 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: So I think that changed the dynamic of how people 378 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: saw those sorts offenses and how they responded. 379 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 2: It is an enormous thing. I've never ceased to be amazed. 380 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: I'm contacted semi regularly, in fact this week, but semi 381 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 2: regularly by either new people or the same people the same. Yes, 382 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: I won't say they're cranks. They're they're enthusiasts, and they're 383 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 2: slightly obsessive, and they're well meaning, and they're not necessarily wrong. 384 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: Obviously they cannot be right, but any one of them 385 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 2: might be right. And you know, somewhere out there there'll 386 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 2: be somebody who says that Andrew Rnson, who lives next 387 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: door them, he's a funny fellow, and they may well 388 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 2: be right. 389 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: The actually indeed, and I think world is changing, and 390 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be tougher and tougher people 391 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: who commit crimes in terms of the reality to resolve them. 392 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: And take that scenario you just painted, You've paid a 393 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: scenario where the police and others are going to get 394 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: endless reports are coming in suggesting this, that and the 395 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: other in their own inquiries, may have to go off 396 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: into hundreds of different lines of inquiry managing all that 397 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: data that comes back. I remember that, you know, in 398 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: the UK there was the Holmes database, I think after 399 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: shot Holmes, and it didn't have a terribly good success, right, 400 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: I don't think, but there were some good there were 401 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: some cases of results for it. But this was painstaking 402 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: entry of into a database of police taking reports from 403 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: thousands of thousands, including their own their own police reports 404 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: and things like that, and of course somebody had to 405 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: correlate this and work all these databases. Now, with artificial 406 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: intelligence a systems, all that can go in and you 407 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: can start asking the system to look for patterns. 408 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 2: And trees and so wonderful. 409 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: The ability to synthesize. 410 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 2: Thousands so much better than any one brain. 411 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely, so it's going to get tired. And that's where 412 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: they beat some of the doctors in some of the 413 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: diagnostics because they don't get tired, don't get fatigued. It's interesting, 414 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: but that means that the more we use those technologies 415 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: and they need to have proper human control. 416 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: No question about court. 417 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: The investigation is still going to be led by you know, 418 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: the investigative police team. But this tool, if used properly, 419 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: is going to give them such an edge, if only 420 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: to prioritize those lines of exactly if. 421 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 2: The computer says you're looking for a seven foot martian, 422 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 2: well yeah, let's read. Let's read program. 423 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: I once had to help on a film set where 424 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: they were doing an autopsy on that was I have 425 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 1: to say that was quite fun. I don't know if 426 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: they got valuable information from me or advice or dot. 427 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: How very good. Well, thank you professor for coming in 428 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 2: and starting this excellent discussion, and I'm hoping that next 429 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: week you can do it all again. 430 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: Oh well, I'd love to tell you a little bit 431 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: more about what we do in forensic pathology. 432 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:32,959 Speaker 2: Excellent, Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday 433 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 2: Herald Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is 434 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 2: Johnty Burton. For my columns, features and more, go to 435 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: Heroldsun dot com dot au, forward slash Andrew Rule one word. 436 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 2: For advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news 437 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: dot com dot au. That is all one word news 438 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: podcasts sold And if you want further information about this episode, 439 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: links are in the description.