Speaker 1: At the start of the year, Hardy pet met with
Speaker 1: newly declared Syrian president almed alsra.
Speaker 2: I met him the day after he had declared himself
Speaker 2: interim president, and so you know, he's taken up residents
Speaker 2: in the presidential palace. So they sent these two armored
Speaker 2: cars to come and pick us up and take us
Speaker 2: through Damascus and and up into the presidential Palace.
Speaker 3: It's all of the choreography of meeting any world leader.
Speaker 2: You know, they take your phones in, your electronics and
Speaker 2: security screening, all that kind of stuff. But it was
Speaker 2: sort of striking right because the Presidential Palace here in
Speaker 2: Damascus is enormous, you know, it's bigger than the White House.
Speaker 2: But it was completely empty.
Speaker 1: The palace was empty because almed Alchurra and his men
Speaker 1: had rolled into Damascus and taken over suddenly.
Speaker 2: Verified footage shows a Syrian rebel tanks in one of
Speaker 2: Damascus's central squares.
Speaker 4: Today it is a coalition of rebel groups that are
Speaker 4: in charge in Damascus the law.
Speaker 1: Just a few months before announcing himself president, al had
Speaker 1: a ten million dollar bounty out for his arrest. Once
Speaker 1: the leader of the Alnusra Front and a member of
Speaker 1: al Qaeda in Iraq, he was an enemy of the
Speaker 1: United States in person.
Speaker 2: I found it quite interesting, actually, because you would expect
Speaker 2: a man who has the background that he has, you know,
Speaker 2: as a fighter, as a man who has engaged in
Speaker 2: direct conflict with groups like ISIS and has managed to survive,
Speaker 2: you know, all of these shifting alliances there, to have
Speaker 2: a sort of more physically imposing presence than I felt
Speaker 2: that he did. I found him quite almost awkward. You know,
Speaker 2: he sat there during an interview with his hands on
Speaker 2: both of his knees, almost like he was having his
Speaker 2: school portrait taken. All of a sudden, he's in the
Speaker 2: presidential palace and he's expected to run a country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big job.
Speaker 2: A mantle that I don't feel that he is always
Speaker 2: wearing particularly comfortably.
Speaker 1: Recently, Al Shara had another meeting with Donald Trump. Trump
Speaker 1: praised him and announced hit lift sanctions in Syria. From
Speaker 1: Schwartz Media, I'm Daniel James. This is seven am today,
Speaker 1: Damascus Space, corresponded Hardi pet on how El Sharra pulled
Speaker 1: that off and what it means for the future of
Speaker 1: his country. It's Wednesday, May eight, Heidi. When Donald Trump
Speaker 1: met with Almid al Shara earlier this month. He called
Speaker 1: him a young attractive guy, a tough guy with a
Speaker 1: strong past.
Speaker 5: Right, I think very good, young attractive guy, tough guy,
Speaker 5: you know, strong pass stroke pass made him.
Speaker 1: What did you make of that description?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I thought that quote was really funny. Right,
Speaker 2: It's a strong past. It's quite an interesting way for
Speaker 2: the US president to describe Sharah. You know, this, this
Speaker 2: is a guy who the US had a ten million
Speaker 2: dollar bounty on Charra's head until very very recently. And
Speaker 2: I think that just goes to show this incredible journey
Speaker 2: that Sharah has gone on. You know, he was a
Speaker 2: real amount of mystery for a lot time, not much
Speaker 2: was known about him.
Speaker 6: He was born in Saudi Arabia in nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 6: after his family was forced to leave the Golan Heights.
Speaker 3: What we do now now is, you know, he grew
Speaker 3: up in a.
Speaker 2: Middle class suburb, in a middle class family in Damascus.
Speaker 2: His father was an economist, but he gradually started spending
Speaker 2: a lot more time in the mosque.
Speaker 6: By around two thousand, he started to become radicalized. When
Speaker 6: asked how he felt aboutline and.
Speaker 3: You know, and with some preachers who encouraged some of.
Speaker 2: The people at that mosque to board these sort of
Speaker 2: famous buses that left Damascus for young young men to
Speaker 2: go and fight in Iraq after the American invasion, and
Speaker 2: Shira got on one of those.
Speaker 1: Yet Syria, joining al Qaeder in Iraq, which led to
Speaker 1: his subsequent arrest and.
Speaker 2: You know, he ended up detained in Iraq for some time.
Speaker 2: He was actually able to pose as a local in Iraq.
Speaker 2: You know, he's noted for being able to speak Arabic
Speaker 2: with an Iraqi accent, which meant that he wasn't treated
Speaker 2: as harshly. You know, if he had been known that
Speaker 2: he was a foreign fighter in Iraq, he would.
Speaker 3: Have had much out of time of it.
Speaker 2: I think this indicates how much of a kind of
Speaker 2: you know, his ability to shape shift and to adapt,
Speaker 2: you know, and then going on to navigate these shifting
Speaker 2: alliances and this conflict between you know, al Qaeda al Nustra,
Speaker 2: which he was the leader of, he has managed to
Speaker 2: really rise to the top and sort of pick off
Speaker 2: opponents along the way. And there's been this sort of
Speaker 2: questioning about him about whether, you know, whether the jihadi
Speaker 2: can become a politician.
Speaker 3: But certainly.
Speaker 2: You know, my sense of him in that meeting and
Speaker 2: just in general is actually, you know, I think this
Speaker 2: man has been a politician all along. You know, his
Speaker 2: ability to make and break alliances when it suits him
Speaker 2: is quite notable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you meet him, he'd just taken over
Speaker 1: as president of Syria. So what did he say at
Speaker 1: the time about his vision for the country's future.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was interesting, right, because there was at that
Speaker 2: time a lot of apprehension about what kind of rule
Speaker 2: we would see, whether there would be anything, you know,
Speaker 2: re mbling democracy, and he did commit to that, but
Speaker 2: it was quite tempered. He said, in our region, there
Speaker 2: are various definitions of democracy.
Speaker 3: But he you know, he really emphasized the need for time.
Speaker 2: You know that there will not be elections for several years.
Speaker 2: The country needs to be stabilized first. But you know,
Speaker 2: since that meeting, things have become a little more clear.
Speaker 2: So a draft constitution was issued in March, and that's
Speaker 2: committed the country to this five year transitional period during
Speaker 2: which he will be the leader. And you know a
Speaker 2: lot of measures were maintained from the old constitution, so
Speaker 2: Islamic law will be the main source of law.
Speaker 3: There's new things in there, you.
Speaker 2: Know, guaranteeing freedom of opinion, expression, the press, rights for
Speaker 2: minorities and women, which all, you know, all sounds really good.
Speaker 2: But the thing that is notable is this quite serious
Speaker 2: concentration of power in the hands of the president. And
Speaker 2: so there is a great deal of concern about that
Speaker 2: from civil society here and from some international actors, you know,
Speaker 2: about this concentration of power and whether whether having exercised
Speaker 2: that power for five years, there will really be a
Speaker 2: democratic transition at the end of it.
Speaker 1: Now he's managed to secure a lifting of sanctions for Syria,
Speaker 1: with Trump saying the country has a chance at greatness.
Speaker 1: You've been living in Damascus since the fall of Assad.
Speaker 1: How to describe the quality of life there for ordinary Syrians?
Speaker 1: And how do you think the announcement that sanctions will
Speaker 1: be lifted will change that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the economic situation for most Syrians is incredibly,
Speaker 2: incredibly dire. Ninety percent of people here are living under
Speaker 2: the poverty line. People can't afford fuel, people can barely
Speaker 2: afford food. Medicine is incredibly expensive, and so you know,
Speaker 2: for a very long time now, it's been incredibly difficult
Speaker 2: to import anything into Syria, you know, including medicine, including
Speaker 2: medical equipment, you know, And it's impacted the ability for
Speaker 2: any kind of international organization to deliver humanitarian assistance, you know,
Speaker 2: smaller organizations that might take donations, you can't really legally
Speaker 2: send money to Syria.
Speaker 3: At the moment.
Speaker 2: And so the impact of these sanctions on daily life
Speaker 2: for people here in.
Speaker 3: Syria is really really serious.
Speaker 2: And it's not just the kind of direct impact of
Speaker 2: these US sanctions either. When the regime fell and there
Speaker 2: was this need for funding and support to begin rebuilding
Speaker 2: this country. Countries like Cutter, they announced a very serious
Speaker 2: aid package, but that package of assistance was really delayed
Speaker 2: because the Cuttery government was worried that even sending that
Speaker 2: money to Syria would mean that their own country fell
Speaker 2: foul of these US sanctions.
Speaker 3: So the kind of butterfly effect of the US lifting.
Speaker 2: These sanctions will be will be huge. Speaking to people
Speaker 2: in Damascus in the last couple of days, there is
Speaker 2: a renewed sense of hope.
Speaker 3: Nobody expected this would happen so quickly.
Speaker 1: After the break. Can Ahmad Altrarad hold together a government
Speaker 1: and country filled with unresis tensions? Heidi, the United States
Speaker 1: has a list of demands that Syria needs to adhere
Speaker 1: to in order for sanctions to be lifted, things like
Speaker 1: signing the Abraham Accords, to normalize relationships with Israel, deporting
Speaker 1: quote Palestinian terrorists, helping the US prevent the resurgence of vices,
Speaker 1: and protecting religious minorities. In March, nearly nine hundred Ala
Speaker 1: white civilians were killed in Syria. You went to these
Speaker 1: communities where these massacres took place, Can you tell me
Speaker 1: what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah. The Alowites are They're one of the largest minority
Speaker 2: religious groups in Syria.
Speaker 3: It's an offshoot of Shia Islam.
Speaker 2: And the Assad family were Alowites, and during the rule
Speaker 2: of the Father and the Son, they sort of exploited
Speaker 2: and deepened these sectarian tensions within Syria. They promoted members
Speaker 2: of the Alowites sect to senior positions in the government
Speaker 2: and the military, so it bred a great deal of resentment.
Speaker 2: But they also deliberately kept the coastal regions, which is
Speaker 2: where you know many Allo Whites in Syria are from.
Speaker 2: They deliberately kept this region very poor and very underdeveloped,
Speaker 2: so that it meant that they were actually very reliant
Speaker 2: on government jobs or military jobs, because it was the
Speaker 2: only kind of viable career path for many.
Speaker 3: People in these regions.
Speaker 2: And since the fall of the regime, a lot of
Speaker 2: these former offices they went back to their homes in
Speaker 2: the coastal villages and they've been kind of hiding out
Speaker 2: there because they have been you know, sort of revenge
Speaker 2: attacks and things like that. And many of them they
Speaker 2: know that justice is coming. They did horrible things, you know,
Speaker 2: whether they were snipers during the siege of cities, whether
Speaker 2: they you know, they flew the planes or helicopters that
Speaker 2: dropped barrel bombs on civilians.
Speaker 3: They know that trouble is coming for them.
Speaker 2: And so in March there was this sort of counter
Speaker 2: insurgency led by what Syrians called the Fullul, which is
Speaker 2: a bit for kind of remnants, like remnants of the
Speaker 2: former regime. And so on one eve there was a
Speaker 2: series of coordinated attacks across the coast where they ambushed
Speaker 2: members of the new security services and you know, shot
Speaker 2: and killed many of them. And what we saw in
Speaker 2: response to that was this overwhelming show of force. You know,
Speaker 2: thousands of members of general security and the army were
Speaker 2: sent to the region, and you also just saw, you know,
Speaker 2: armed and motivated civilians basically showed up in the back
Speaker 2: of highlux trucks with guns and participated in this sort
Speaker 2: of orgy of violence against Alowite civilians. Million thousand civilians
Speaker 2: were killed across a couple of days.
Speaker 4: They would ask people only one question, are you Alowite
Speaker 4: or Sunni? Then they would shoot when they know you
Speaker 4: were Alowite.
Speaker 2: You have groups kind of sweeping through these villages and
Speaker 2: knocking on doors and basically pulling all Alohite men out
Speaker 2: of their homes and shooting them in the street. You know,
Speaker 2: a man from one of these towns, Baniasi, sent me
Speaker 2: a voice note describing what had happened. Basically all the
Speaker 2: men in some apartment buildings being just taken up to
Speaker 2: the roof and shot.
Speaker 4: We learned that they took my sixty eighty year old
Speaker 4: uncle to the roof with five people and shot them
Speaker 4: in cold blood. Entire families, including children and women, were
Speaker 4: wiped out.
Speaker 2: And you know, you saw this play out across multiple
Speaker 2: towns and villages. So we're just entering now the village
Speaker 2: of Arosa, which is in the eastern edge of the mountains,
Speaker 2: where I went to one of them not long afterwards.
Speaker 2: It's a very very small village called Ala. It's incredibly poor,
Speaker 2: and there were sixty eight people killed there, mostly men,
Speaker 2: but women and children as well. And I think what
Speaker 2: was striking was the level of coordination that they described
Speaker 2: between these armed factions and the new authorities. So they described,
Speaker 2: you know, the meeting at the police station beforehand, coming
Speaker 2: in convoy in the you know, in the same cars.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, so the game the.
Speaker 5: Armed groups and they were asking if they have weapons,
Speaker 5: searching for weapons, and that we don't have any weapons.
Speaker 5: They told him that he's lying, and then they took
Speaker 5: him out of the house and they shot between their legs.
Speaker 2: And while it was very unclear to them who was
Speaker 2: doing exactly what, because there was a range of different
Speaker 2: kind of uniforms and styles of dress between all of
Speaker 2: these different groups, they all very clearly described to me,
Speaker 2: you know, the presence of general security alongside this, and
Speaker 2: the fact that you know, they were not reigning in
Speaker 2: this violence, they were, if not participating, certainly turning a
Speaker 2: blind eye to it.
Speaker 1: So what you're describing, Hardy, is a horrific and extremely
Speaker 1: complex situation. What sense do you have about whether Ahmed
Speaker 1: Altrara will be able to hold together a government and
Speaker 1: create a sense of stability in Syria.
Speaker 2: So how he deals with what happened on the coast
Speaker 2: actually will be a big tell for you know, his
Speaker 2: ability to hold things together, because it will give us
Speaker 2: some kind of insight into whether he's willing to, you know,
Speaker 2: be accountable for crimes in his own backyard and to
Speaker 2: what degree he actually is sort of held hostage by
Speaker 2: some of these more extreme factions that had a huge
Speaker 2: role to play in this violence, but that he is
Speaker 2: reliant upon in order to keep the country together and
Speaker 2: to kind of exit basic security control. So that will
Speaker 2: be a real indicator I think of his strength among
Speaker 2: his allies. The other big challenge is the need for
Speaker 2: transitional justice. I think that we wouldn't have seen such
Speaker 2: a wave of extreme violence if many Syrians felt lack
Speaker 2: there was movement towards accountability and punishment and some kind
Speaker 2: of formal court process for members of the regime. And
Speaker 2: you know, in the last couple of days we have
Speaker 2: seen a formal body established to start tackling that. It's
Speaker 2: taken a long time, and many Syrians are confused about
Speaker 2: why it's taken so long.
Speaker 3: To move towards that.
Speaker 2: And the other big challenge is many of these sort
Speaker 2: of remnants of various armed groups that took up residents
Speaker 2: in Syria at the course of the civil war looking
Speaker 2: to exploit any kind of chaos that they're able to.
Speaker 3: And the big one there is ISIS.
Speaker 2: You know, we've seen a resurgence just in the last
Speaker 2: few days, there was a car bomb in eastern Syria,
Speaker 2: the first ISIS car bomb since the fall of the regime,
Speaker 2: and direct fighting between the new government and ISIS cells
Speaker 2: in Aleppo as well. So that's a real challenge that
Speaker 2: he'll need to keep a hand along. But I think
Speaker 2: given how brutal the regime was and how brutal the
Speaker 2: war was, there has been a remarkable amount of stability
Speaker 2: really so far. One of the main threats I think
Speaker 2: will be, you know, whether you see some of these
Speaker 2: groups being unhappy with compromises that Shara will need to
Speaker 2: make in order to satisfy the international community. You know,
Speaker 2: so whether that's something like signing the Abraham Accords, whether
Speaker 2: it is a perception that he's been too progressive or
Speaker 2: he's not implementing the Islamic law that many of these
Speaker 2: guys have been fighting for for a long time.
Speaker 3: I think that's a real risk.
Speaker 2: There are still many many actors in SA that would
Speaker 2: be seeking to exploit any any kind of chaos.
Speaker 1: Heidi, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: It's been really good to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, electricity prices are set to
Speaker 1: rise for almost half a million households in New South Wales,
Speaker 1: Southeast Queensland and South Australia from July first. The Default
Speaker 1: Market Offer, which acts as a price cap for energy retailers,
Speaker 1: will increase for households and small businesses in these states,
Speaker 1: with the Australian energy regulators saying the wholesale costs and
Speaker 1: the price of transporting electricity have risen and labour MP
Speaker 1: ed Husick says the Australian government should commit to target
Speaker 1: its sanctions if Israel refuses to relent in its expanded
Speaker 1: military offensive in Gaza. The comments come after lease fifty
Speaker 1: four Palestinians were killed, most of them sheltering in a
Speaker 1: school building during Israeli air strikes on Gaza. Ed Hughesick
Speaker 1: says he wants stronger action from the Australian government. You've
Speaker 1: been listening to seven AM we'll be back tomorrow.