WEBVTT - How abortion became an election issue in Queensland

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>The fight over abortion in Queensland had seemed settled. It

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<v Speaker 1>was decriminalized in twenty eighteen and has enjoyed solid public

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<v Speaker 1>support since then, But with Katta's Australian Party now promising

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<v Speaker 1>to introduce a bill to repeal those laws in the

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<v Speaker 1>new parliament, it's become a surprise issue heading into this

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<v Speaker 1>weekend's election. The leader of the Liberal National Party, David

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<v Speaker 1>Chris A Folly, has insisted he has no plans to

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<v Speaker 1>change the laws, but if enough of his MPs choose

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<v Speaker 1>to vote with their conscience, the decision could be out

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<v Speaker 1>of his hands. Today, reporter and director of F and

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<v Speaker 1>K Media Caitlin Sorry on the fight over abortion rights

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<v Speaker 1>and how it will affect who leads Queensland. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 1>October twenty four Caitlin, Hello, how are you good?

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<v Speaker 2>Afternoon?

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<v Speaker 1>Good so nice to see you. You're in Queensland at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment, in the electorate of Caloundra and the state

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<v Speaker 1>election is just a few days away. So in this

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<v Speaker 1>final stretch, what has it been like? What are you

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<v Speaker 1>seeing and hearing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I'm seeing abortion signs popping up quite a

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<v Speaker 2>few different variations, but the ones I saw today were

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<v Speaker 2>a vote for the L and P is a vote

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<v Speaker 2>to make abortion a crime. I saw three of them

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<v Speaker 2>on my way into work today and they've been moving

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<v Speaker 2>around the neighborhood, so I'm assuming some of them being

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<v Speaker 2>pulled out and replaced with different ones. But it is

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<v Speaker 2>interesting because this is a marginal seat. Labor won it

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time in twenty twenty by a margin

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<v Speaker 2>of two point five percent, and it's an electorate where

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of young family moving into the area.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a big housing development locally, got a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people moving up from the south from Victoria, from New

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<v Speaker 2>South Wales because of the beaches. It's not that far

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<v Speaker 2>from Brisbane, and so it's an area where you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of campaign around abortion access might actually have

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<v Speaker 2>some impact.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, let's talk about the campaign around abortion access.

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<v Speaker 1>It didn't seem like it was a major issue in

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<v Speaker 1>this election until very recently, So tell me about how

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<v Speaker 1>that happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Robbie catter led off a bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>hand grenade. He was asked about his position on abortion

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<v Speaker 2>because he has introduced a private members bill previously earlier

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<v Speaker 2>this year around late term abortions. So he was asked

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<v Speaker 2>about this again and he said that he would work

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<v Speaker 2>to repeal the legalization of abortion. Quote as quick as.

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<v Speaker 3>You like, we will, quick as you like put a

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<v Speaker 3>repeal bill back into the Coinsland Parliament on those abortion laws.

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<v Speaker 2>This isn't something he said he was set out to

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<v Speaker 2>de liberately talk about in this campaign. It was put

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<v Speaker 2>to him, so he answered it, and he's like, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a straight up guy, you know, I'll answer the questions

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<v Speaker 2>that are sent my way.

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<v Speaker 3>I responded as I always would by saying that if

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<v Speaker 3>a proposition was put to us, or there was an

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<v Speaker 3>opportunity to progress something that aligns with our values where

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<v Speaker 3>I take it, the answer will always be yes. And

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<v Speaker 3>you can cut and pace abortion with vegetation management laws

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<v Speaker 3>or climate tax or whatever you like, we will always.

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<v Speaker 2>But it has really given labor the legs to go.

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<v Speaker 2>What could happen in a new government, particularly when it

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<v Speaker 2>seems pretty likely that we're going to have an L

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<v Speaker 2>and P government.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, can we pause and talk a little more about

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<v Speaker 1>Robbie Catter here, because I think his father, Bob Catter,

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<v Speaker 1>is the more well known politician. But Bob retired I

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<v Speaker 1>believe not too long ago, and Robbie took over his party.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me a bit more about this family and

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<v Speaker 1>their role in the Queensland political life.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so, Robbie Catter is Bob Katter's son and Bob

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<v Speaker 2>Catter Senior has his influence goes back to the seventies.

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<v Speaker 2>So he was first elected in the seventies. He became

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<v Speaker 2>a minister under Premier Jobilki Peterson, who people will famously know.

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<v Speaker 2>And the Kata Party when they formed in the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>tens were really they're really a North Queensland party. They

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<v Speaker 2>have at least four seats, are expected to retain those

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<v Speaker 2>seats and maybe I can pick up another one. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's a party that really represents, you know, parts of

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<v Speaker 2>North Queensland that don't feel like they're represented by the

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<v Speaker 2>major parties. So they have Christian values. They've talked about

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<v Speaker 2>things like corporate punishment for children and parents having the

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<v Speaker 2>right to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>The matter of the fact is parents have lost their

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<v Speaker 3>rights to discipline the children.

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<v Speaker 4>Some kids need a smack, a kick up the ass

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<v Speaker 4>or ruler.

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<v Speaker 2>So they bring up things that maybe the major parties

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<v Speaker 2>aren't too interested in talking about. But the Kata Party, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And so while the Catter Party is I suppose a

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<v Speaker 2>minor party, it does sound like it's got a long

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<v Speaker 2>history and it's got significant power.

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<v Speaker 1>But I mean, just how far does that stretch? Why

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<v Speaker 1>did the suggestion that they might introduce a bill to

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<v Speaker 1>repeal abortion, why did that have such a big impact

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<v Speaker 1>on this election campaign?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so earlier this year Robbie Catter introduced a member's

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<v Speaker 2>bill that failed on late term abortions, focusing on the

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<v Speaker 2>human rights of babies born alive after abortion.

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<v Speaker 5>Action speaking, more than thirty babies people are born into

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<v Speaker 5>this world live in Queensland each year as a result

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<v Speaker 5>of late term pregnancy termination procedure, thirty babies. This bill

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<v Speaker 5>to amend the Termination and Pregnancy Act twenty eighteen and

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<v Speaker 5>shrines and legislation the fundamental human rights of all persons

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<v Speaker 5>human babies born.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, this is something that happens very rarely. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of guardrails about how these things are handled. But

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<v Speaker 2>Robbie Catter is really concerned that baby is born and

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<v Speaker 2>that survive the abortion end up in the bin. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that's a claim he's said a few times as recently

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<v Speaker 2>as last week.

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<v Speaker 5>The baby's plan.

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<v Speaker 3>Abortion comes out breathing with a heartbeat.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm probably going to struggle for life, but that they

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<v Speaker 5>can just give us some care and dignity.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a human rights issue.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not an abortion issue.

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<v Speaker 2>To me, so that when I put that to medical professionals,

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, that's really insensitive and that is not something

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<v Speaker 2>that is happening, and it also undermines the professionalism of

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<v Speaker 2>medical professionals in this field too, are doing everything they

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<v Speaker 2>can to work with families. David Christophulei, the leader of

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<v Speaker 2>the L and P, has said it's not part of

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<v Speaker 2>the plant. I'm ruling out any changes to abortion.

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<v Speaker 3>There might be a change.

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<v Speaker 6>It has crossed the line and ruled it out.

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<v Speaker 2>Although he said there's no plan to change abortion in Queensland,

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<v Speaker 2>he has also not ruled out a conscience vote. So

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<v Speaker 2>whether it actually gets traction in the Parliament post this

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<v Speaker 2>election this weekend is kind of up to whether there

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<v Speaker 2>is a conscience vote on the issue, because if Kata's

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<v Speaker 2>party puts in a bill that says we want people

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to vote on their conscience, a conscience

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<v Speaker 2>vote would allow his members to vote however they like

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<v Speaker 2>and we don't know what that would look like. Also,

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<v Speaker 2>what's interesting here is that the L and P broadly

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<v Speaker 2>voted against the legalization of abortion in twenty eighteen, and

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<v Speaker 2>Chris A. Foley and his deputy Dared Lahey were among them.

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<v Speaker 2>Only three members of the L and P voted with Labor.

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<v Speaker 2>So we have this situation where the leader of the

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<v Speaker 2>L and P is saying, look, there'll be no changes,

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<v Speaker 2>you've just got to trust us. But when you look

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<v Speaker 2>at how they're voted previously, they have voted against decriminalizing

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<v Speaker 2>abortion in Queensland. The Late Party have seen this as

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<v Speaker 2>a way to wedge the L ANDP by saying a

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<v Speaker 2>vote for the L and P is a vote for

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<v Speaker 2>criminalizing abortion in Queenslandbody mind.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean this is this is a really important issue.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it shouldn't change. Everyone knows I think it

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<v Speaker 2>shouldn't change.

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<v Speaker 1>The laws will remain the same.

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<v Speaker 5>Or you have a consciencepoke the laws will remain this

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<v Speaker 5>there will do you need no change.

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<v Speaker 2>So it really is a live issue in Queensland now,

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<v Speaker 2>even though this wasn't something we expected from this campaign,

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<v Speaker 2>Suddenly we're all talking about abortion. When this was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of put to bed in twenty eighteen, but now it's

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<v Speaker 2>become a part of this election campaign.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, how abortion access in Queensland could be

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<v Speaker 1>wound back with or without an abortion bill. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk more Caitlin about the pre twenty eighteen scenario and

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<v Speaker 1>the context for this. I mean, how contentious has the

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<v Speaker 1>issue of abortion been in Queensland before.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I started reporting on abortion politics in Queensland

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<v Speaker 2>when I was like twenty one years old. So in Queensland,

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<v Speaker 2>the laws were written in eighteen ninety nine. Abortion was

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<v Speaker 2>criminalized in Queensland before Queensland women got the vote in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen oh five, and those laws kind of stayed in

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<v Speaker 2>place for a very long time. It wasn't until nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five that we had a doctor actually charged with

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<v Speaker 2>those laws for performing an abortion and they went to

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<v Speaker 2>trial and he was able to argue that it was

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<v Speaker 2>in the interest of the women's health and that became

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<v Speaker 2>the legal defense upon which all abortion services in Queensland

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<v Speaker 2>were accessed. So basically we were kind of in this

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<v Speaker 2>gray zone until about two thousand and nine where there

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<v Speaker 2>was this weird case where a young couple imported an

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<v Speaker 2>abortion drug from Ukraine and at the time abortion pills

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<v Speaker 2>were able to be accessed by a guy ecologist in Cans,

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<v Speaker 2>Carol and DaCosta, but they went down this other route

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<v Speaker 2>where they got it imported through a throne who was

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<v Speaker 2>flying on a flight to Cans and so they were

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<v Speaker 2>charged under that law and there was kind of this

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<v Speaker 2>question and this tension around like abortion is criminalized in Queensland,

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<v Speaker 2>but it also had this legal defense how covered our

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<v Speaker 2>doctors in Queensland And so things kind of ticked along

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<v Speaker 2>until twenty sixteen when Independent Rob Pine introduced a private

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<v Speaker 2>member's bill seeking to decriminalize abortion and that went to

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<v Speaker 2>the Law Reform Commission and they looked at these eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety nine laws and spent a year looking at it.

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<v Speaker 2>They had committees, they went around to Queenslanders asking them

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<v Speaker 2>how do they feel about these laws, and really kind

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<v Speaker 2>of brought the public along with them and they did

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of surveys kind of seeing, you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>was the appetite for change in Queensland. And so that

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<v Speaker 2>ended up being a piece of legislation that went to

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<v Speaker 2>the Queensland government and was finally signed in twenty eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>makeing abortion legal. So that's kind of the journey that

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<v Speaker 2>we've been on from eighteen ninety nine to twenty eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>and now in twenty twenty four the whole debate started again.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, but there is a difference, isn't there between abortion

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<v Speaker 1>being decriminalized and it being a realistic option for women.

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<v Speaker 1>So when it comes to access, particularly in more remote

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<v Speaker 1>or more regional areas, what is that like as it stands?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it is expanding. So the Labor government recently

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<v Speaker 2>passed laws expanding access to abortion services, particularly in regional areas.

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<v Speaker 2>Again that was opposed broadly by the L and P

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<v Speaker 2>and so they've put aside forty one point eight million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars towards the Termination of Pregnancy Action Plan twenty thirty

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<v Speaker 2>two over five years. And what that does is it

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<v Speaker 2>allows qualified nurses and midwives to perform medical termination using

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<v Speaker 2>the MS two step in the early stages of pregnancy.

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<v Speaker 2>So it means that there are more people who can

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<v Speaker 2>give out this medication and work with women who are

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<v Speaker 2>in regional and remote areas who may not be able

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<v Speaker 2>to access a hospital. So in large parts of Queensland

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<v Speaker 2>it's a long way to get to a hospital and

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<v Speaker 2>a surgical abortion is you know, quite a procedure for

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<v Speaker 2>some people. So to have medical access where you can

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<v Speaker 2>just take a pill, do it from home, be supervised

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<v Speaker 2>by a nurse is another way to go. And so

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<v Speaker 2>that is rolling out. And when I spoke to Carolindacosta,

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<v Speaker 2>who was an early part of the MIFA pristone access,

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<v Speaker 2>she was the first doctor in Australia who was granted

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<v Speaker 2>access to be able to give this to women. She

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<v Speaker 2>said that it is coming into the public system, So

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<v Speaker 2>it is becoming part of public healthcare in Queensland. But

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<v Speaker 2>that process is ongoing. It's not it's not a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of snappy fingers and it happens overnight, okay.

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<v Speaker 1>And so throughout this election campaign, David Chris fully he

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<v Speaker 1>has been trying very hard to sell himself as this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of moderate and more contemporary leader and if he wins,

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<v Speaker 1>he will be somewhat of an anomaly. Not many states

0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.160
<v Speaker 1>or territories are governed by a liberal party right now.

0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 1>So do you think that that signals that he will

0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.800
<v Speaker 1>face unique challenges as the leader of the Queensland l

0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 1>ANDP and potentially as Premier.

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, So it is an interesting scenario because we haven't

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.200
<v Speaker 2>had an L and P leader in Queensland for a while.

0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 2>The last one was Campbell Newman and he was kind

0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.920
<v Speaker 2>of a different political beast to Debi Crissa. Fully. Political

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.440
<v Speaker 2>scientists from Griffith Associate Professor Paul Williams kind of says,

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.600
<v Speaker 2>we're in uncharted territory. We don't. We haven't really had

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.520
<v Speaker 2>a situation in Queensland where we've had a progressive leader

0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.640
<v Speaker 2>with a party room that is at least three quarters

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Capital C Conservative. But if there's enough of a swing

0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 2>towards Chris a Fully and he has a mandate to say, look,

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I was elected, I'm the leader. The political analyst I

0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 2>spoke to said that he should have enough power to

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:00.640
<v Speaker 2>keep the party in line.

0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.200
<v Speaker 1>Right. But even if an abortion bill doesn't materialize or

0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 1>doesn't get through Parliament, there are other ways out there

0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.680
<v Speaker 1>of making it difficult for people to be able to

0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.200
<v Speaker 1>access abortion services.

0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was speaking to the CEO of Children by Choice,

0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 2>Jill McKay, and she said there's lots of ways that

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.560
<v Speaker 2>you can make abortion access less accessible that are less

0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.240
<v Speaker 2>obvious than going the criminalization of abortion route.

0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 4>We are funded. We are Queensland's only government funded all

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:38.119
<v Speaker 4>options pregnancy counseling service any other program that someone would contact,

0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 4>or any other service at they're contacting outside of Queensland Health,

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.560
<v Speaker 4>they will be running into anti choice people.

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.520
<v Speaker 2>So their funding comes from the government. That can be

0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.480
<v Speaker 2>reduced over time, which means that you give more space

0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.720
<v Speaker 2>to people who may not talk about abortion, access to

0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.480
<v Speaker 2>people who are pregnant and wanting counseling. You can also

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.400
<v Speaker 2>reduce the access to publicly accessible abortion in Queensland, so

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.680
<v Speaker 2>you can roll back some of that funding where it's

0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 2>going through the public system.

0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:12.600
<v Speaker 4>Perhaps they're you know, the way to take away that

0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.680
<v Speaker 4>all choice space is to fund other programs or services

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.840
<v Speaker 4>or highlight them, or also to reduce the access public

0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.960
<v Speaker 4>access to abortion in Queensland. So there's many many.

0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.000
<v Speaker 6>Other ways to kind look at it.

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.400
<v Speaker 4>And because we don't know we're scared from children by

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.960
<v Speaker 4>choices perspective, we have reached out in.

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.440
<v Speaker 6>That letter that we sent out, it's on public record.

0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.200
<v Speaker 6>Please can we meet with you? Can please? Can we

0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 6>individually meet with you to talk with you as a

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 6>candidate about what your perspective is on abortion access in

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.640
<v Speaker 6>Queensland And not one of them has taken it up.

0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.120
<v Speaker 2>And so this debate shows us that even though public

0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.080
<v Speaker 2>opinion is really strong that the majority of people and

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Queensland support abortion access. This debate is far from settled.

0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:07.560
<v Speaker 2>It's an issue that will always get people riled up.

0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.320
<v Speaker 2>It's an issue that will always attract attention, and so

0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.440
<v Speaker 2>even though there is broad public support, this is something

0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.760
<v Speaker 2>that's going to come up again and again and throw

0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.120
<v Speaker 2>into question women's right to have control over their body.

0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Well, Caitlyn, thank you so much for your time today.

0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 2>You're welcome.

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Bruce Lammon is permitted to

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.800
<v Speaker 1>continue his appeal against his failed defamation case against Channel ten.

0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.080
<v Speaker 1>The Federal Court has granted Laman a stay of the

0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.600
<v Speaker 1>two million dollar cost and dismissed Ten's application for Lairman

0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 1>to pay two hundred thousand dollars as security for the

0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.560
<v Speaker 1>cost of the upcoming appeal. Lamon did not appear in

0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.120
<v Speaker 1>court for the hearings, with his lawyer stating his scared

0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 1>to attend court after becoming arguably Australia's most hated man,

0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.840
<v Speaker 1>and Donald Trump has made an extraordinary claim that the

0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:14.080
<v Speaker 1>UK Labor Party has committed election interference just two weeks

0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.200
<v Speaker 1>from the vote on November five, in a written complaint

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.800
<v Speaker 1>which misspells the word Britain. It's claimed that Labour sent

0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.600
<v Speaker 1>party members to campaign for Harris in key states. The

0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.520
<v Speaker 1>letter references a LinkedIn post from the head of operations

0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.760
<v Speaker 1>at UK Labor that claimed one hundred current and former

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.960
<v Speaker 1>staffers were campaigning for Harris. The Guardian reports the volunteers

0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.600
<v Speaker 1>were campaigning on their personal time and not in their

0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.400
<v Speaker 1>capacity for Labor. I'm Ruby Jones at seven am, will

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:42.520
<v Speaker 1>be back tomorrow.