WEBVTT - Turning pain into power: Anna Coutts-Trotter Pt. 2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.080 detective sy aside of life. The average person has never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:47.400 Welcome back to part two of my chat with Anna 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.239 koot Strata. In part one, we discussed the emotional and 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.480 physical abuse and suffered as a fifteen year old schoolgirl 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.240 by her boyfriend. In part two, Anna shares what it 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.320 was like going through the court system and what actually 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.720 happened at court, and the lessons she learned about life. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.080 We also talked in detail about the inspirational work she's 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.240 doing now as a co founder of the Survivor Hub, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.600 where she and the team help empower people impacted by 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.680 sexual assault. I got to say I walked away from 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.240 the chat with Anna with a greater understanding of the 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.280 impact of crime and quite inspired by the work she's doing. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.839 Have a listen, I think you will be too, Anna 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.360 kout Strata, Welcome back to part two of my Catchkillers. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:32.319 Thanks for having me. 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:34.920 Well, I'm going to ask a favor, and I don't 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.600 normally ask favors on the podcast, but can you put 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.280 in a good word to your father about coming on 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:46.920 the podcast. I've followed his career and I think it's fascinating. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.840 And the people that don't know of your father, his 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.240 backstory is that he spent three years in prison, and 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:58.360 I think he's supposed to boy for make mistakes, change 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.920 your life and rehabilitation. But we shouldn't be judged by 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.080 one thing that happens in life. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.639 And Dad always says, He's always said this to me forever, 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.280 and it's not his quote, but he always says, you know, 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.120 we should never judge somebody by the worst thing they 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.280 ever did. And I've taken that with me through everything, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.560 you know, through my social work and through people that 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:22.959 I meet and when I'm wronged and you know, things 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:23.399 like that. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.080 Well, for what that's worth, I've watched the way he's 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.400 answered questions about you know, he's why he was in 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.360 prison related to drugs when he was very young, and 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.840 that he certainly redeemed himself. And I think he's a 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:41.200 great story high up in the public servant and the 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.000 roles that he's had and the criticism and they say 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.919 has come out and say well what's he doing there, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.800 and the amount of people that support him, and the 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.280 type of type of work he's done. I think it's 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:54.720 a fascinating story. So can you put in a little 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.520 word for yes, okay, because I've looked for years at 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.840 getting him, so that would be great. Anyway, back to 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:09.480 what we're talking about. In part one, you told us 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.760 that you gave us an understanding of what happened with 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.680 the relationship with the person you assume from a fifteen 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.480 year old and the abuse that you suffered at this 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.480 person's hands. You've told your parents about it, and then 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.959 there was the reason that you went to the police, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:28.840 and the police had got in contact with you in 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.640 relation to another matter, but that sort of escalated from there. 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.520 Then we just touched on the court matter and going 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.880 through court. And you also made reference to the fact 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.440 that the healing process took years, because a lot of 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.880 that time was dealt with after you've provided statements to 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.800 the police and reported the crimes against you. The court 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.320 process takes so long? Do you want to tell us 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:53.400 about the court process? 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:58.440 So I reported pretty soon after having left him for 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.360 the last time, and I, like probably most people who 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.720 have no experience in legal systems and court processes, thought, oh, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.480 it might be like a few months. The police will 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.840 obviously have to investigate, they'll gather it all up, they'll 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:13.720 give it to a lawyer. The lawyer will have it 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.560 in court, might take a week or two something like that. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.359 Wrap it up done. It'll take under a year for sure. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:25.919 And then no, I think it took almost two years 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.720 just to get to court, and which is quick. That's 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.440 actually very quick. I know that I'm lucky for it 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.760 being you know, two years. And then it was in 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.800 court for a month, maybe a little bit longer. And 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:42.320 then he appealed the one guilty verdict, which meant me 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.159 to go back to court. The judges had to make 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.760 a decision for you know, I think it was a 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.880 few months, at least six months or something like that, 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.920 and then they came their decision, which was the appeal 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.479 was not successful and the you know, conviction was upheld, 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.400 and then we were worried that he might try and 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.400 a peel it again to a higher court. But thankfully 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.400 he wasn't allowed to or didn't. I don't know if 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:06.920 it was because he wasn't allowed, but he wouldn't have 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:10.680 been allowed anyway. And that whole entire process was at 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.640 least three years, could have been close to four or 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:15.680 five or something like that by the very end of it. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.479 Like I was at university the whole you know, I'd 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.760 done half my degree by the time I was done 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.800 in court, which is pretty crazy. 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.200 Well, I got a sense of your thoughts of the 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.360 court process. We've I went through the transcripts when you 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.440 gave evidence that the Royal Commission into Domestic Family and 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.600 Sexual Violence in South Australia, you're asked the question when 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.720 you're giving evidence at the Royal Commission that you were 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:42.240 asked about whether the criminal justice process present the barrier 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.560 to recovery from domestic family and sexual violence, and this 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.640 is how you answered it. Yeah, I think it can 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.760 present a huge barrier to healing. And my experience of 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.320 the criminal justice process was it put my healing on 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.400 the hold for several years because become so wrapped up 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.800 in the process and in basically just staying live that 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.360 you don't really have much time to be healing and 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:05.960 to be not living in what I considered to be 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.719 fight or flight. It's we got it wrong, haven't we. 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.320 Like I know, you've got to have the checks and 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.160 balances in the courts, and we've got to have the 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.960 serial system, and it takes time. But the impact it 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.560 has on victims. And I've sat at this table on 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.680 the podcast speaking to so many people that have the 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:29.360 same complaints. How long the court process process takes? Yeah, 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.760 and you've just described the impact it has had on you, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.400 or had had on you whilst you were waiting. How 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.719 many charges did it relate related to your manner? 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:40.760 There were five? 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.760 Right, okay? And my understanding, I'm just basing this on 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:47.920 on what I've read that he was convicted of one 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.839 of the offenses of serious assault from from your your 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:56.320 complaints giving evidence at court? How is that? And how 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:00.200 long were you in the witness box forum? And I 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:00.880 see you smile. 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:10.160 It was undescribably horrific, Like there are actually just not 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.000 words in the you know, English language that exists that 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.920 can describe how horrific the court process was for me. 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.520 I gave evidence over a series of days. I can't 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.280 remember now, it was at least three days, but it 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.160 also included a a Friday off I think because the 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.920 judge had another matter, and then a weekend and then 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.840 came back on the Monday, so it was I think 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:36.960 it was three days that week, and then a three 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.520 day weekend and then back for more evidence. So it 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.120 was just you can imagine what that weekend's like. I 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.000 didn't get out of bed, I didn't eat. I was 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.640 really lucky at that time to manage to eat one almand. 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.280 My mum was like, okay, let's think of something small 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:53.840 and like, you know, we'll. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:54.240 Fill you up. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.400 And she was like some almonds, like some nuts, and 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.320 like I would eat an almond and I would feel 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:03.160 sick immediately, and I was trying to drink like water, 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.040 and I could hardly manage anything. 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:06.480 I just couldn't couldn't get out. 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:10.520 Of bed, and that that reaction, like emotional and physically, 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.280 just what was it about court that traumatized you so much. 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.680 There's a famous Judith Hermann quote, and she's a therapist 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.040 in America, and she talks about if we were intentionally 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.840 to design like a system, a court system that would 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.400 provoke symptoms of distress, and basically the worst that you 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.200 could do, it would look how we do it right now. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.760 It's the perfect storm of all of these really horrible 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.199 features combining together to make a really, really traumatic and 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.080 lengthy process. And part of that was, you know, I 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.880 have to get up in court in front of a 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.960 room full of strangers. Whether I'm via AVL or not, 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.359 I know that I'm speaking to a room full of strangers. 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:54.559 I tell them about the worst things that ever happened 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.240 to me. And then I have to, you know, I 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.600 have to be called names, told that I'm lying, you know, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:05.199 told that I'm unreliable. I was accused of being sexually promiscuous. 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.200 I was accused of enjoying the things that some of 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:09.400 the acts that he'd done to me. 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.000 I was asked what I was wearing. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.079 I was told it couldn't have happened, it's impossible that 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:16.880 it would have happened. I was told that I wanted it, 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.440 that I enjoyed it like it was just completely torn 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.360 down and I was up there basically like bearing my soul. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.720 It's what it feels like, you're sharing something that you know. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.480 I hadn't told anybody else. I hadn't told my parents' 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.000 level of detail. The only people who knew that were 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.520 the police that took my statement, the one police officer 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.840 who took my statement who was a woman as well. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:38.920 And then all of a sudden, I'm telling all of 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.880 these people in a courtroom and the person who's balanced 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:46.240 against me is sitting there. Was just horrific, and it 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.000 went for so many days, and you have to be 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.080 so completely on top of everything that you say, and 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.760 you know, there was one thing where I was I 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.360 had to count something. There was I don't want to 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.079 say too much, but I had to count something, and 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.480 I got it wrong. I thought there were thirty of them, 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:05.440 but there were nine of them. And it's you know, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.400 it's a feature of a house, like it's just something 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.320 that you don't even think about. And it would be 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.640 like if I asked you exactly how many meters tall 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.720 as your door or something like that, right, nobody could 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.640 answer that. You know, draw the pattern of the carpet 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:20.360 that you have at home. I couldn't even do that 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:21.959 because even though I look at it every day, I 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.160 look at it every day, so I'm not thinking about it. 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:26.840 And then you get you know, you come up and 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.000 they go, are you sure about this Smith's coops Tratta? Well, yes, 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.199 to the best of my recollection. Well, this photo here 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.000 shows you that you're a liar and that you've deliberately 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:36.720 lied about this. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.719 I'm hearing you. It's triggering me. It offends me so 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:48.000 much the way that that is approached, and it's about 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.720 discrediting you. Whether it's in front of a jury or 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.080 the magistrate. That's just creating doubts, like how many lights 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:55.880 have you got in the house, or how many lights 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:57.800 are in the house. I don't know, ten, maybe twelve? 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.040 Well you said ten, is it ten or twelve? That type, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:01.719 and we show you. 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:03.640 It's actually fifteen. So you must be a liar. 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.200 I know you're looking at the court system, and because 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.720 of your experience, you look at it. But we've got 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.840 the adversarial system. But we've got it wrong in some way, 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:14.839 isn't it. It's just such a it's not about a 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:17.400 search for the truth. It's about who can perform better. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.280 And there is a theater about the courts. And I 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:26.320 constantly hear victims when they're giving evidence in court how 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.720 traumatizing it is, and how you describe that, Like, I've 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:31.600 been the court and I've been the accused, I've been 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.320 the prosecutor, I've been the witness. I've been in courts 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:39.040 in every aspect and the pressure that's on you, and 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.880 I'm what would be called the professional witness, because that's 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.480 what I did in my career. But it was intimidating. 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:48.120 It It's an intimidating environment. Here you are, as a 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.640 young girl, been through something very traumatic. They speak in 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:54.760 a language it is hard to understand, and I think 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.800 solicitors often do that just to justify the money that 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.360 they get. They use words and try my. 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:05.319 Learned friend, learned friend, Yeah, I had more nightmares about 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.600 the defense lawyer than I did about the person who's 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:08.400 valanced against me. 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.200 It just couldn't stop thinking about him. I was so 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:12.040 scared of him. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.280 And just like as you were saying it, it felt 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:16.960 like it was a game for him, like it was 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.320 really casual for him. This was just his everyday job, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.640 and he gets thousands of our dollars an hour. He's 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:28.320 a really well paid, very senior barrister, and it was 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.920 just nothing to him. He hardly made eye contact with me. 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.760 He accused me of lying, and the person whose advanced 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.640 was just sitting up there in the box just absolutely 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:38.679 quite didn't. 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:39.160 Have to say a word. 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.680 Defense barristers justify that they're just doing the job, and 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.240 I support. We need the checks and balances, you know, 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.559 if someone makes an allegation that it's got to be 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.400 be proven. I've had opportunity where I get to speak 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:56.920 to law students and different environments, and I always say, 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.959 don't lose humanity, because that seems to be what's lost. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:02.480 Yeah, And I think there's you know, there's a difference 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:08.000 between respectfully asking people questions and you know, finding out 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.000 because everyone has a version of the events, right, Like 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.800 the statement that I gave is not exactly the truth, right, 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.960 it's my truth, and it's the closest to. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:19.600 Ye. 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.640 It's my memory, and it's my memory during trauma. And 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:27.000 we know that memories pause like they pause creating during trauma. So, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.160 to the very best of my recollection, this is what happened. 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.640 I don't know what the answers are, But I just 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.600 my simplistic view of it is that we've just got 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.480 to keep you humanity in the courts. 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.240 Because it's an important role. And there are people who 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:42.920 are falsely accused of things all the time. They are 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.400 average and women who are falsely accused of having perpetrated 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.880 domestic violence, and they deserve the very best lawyer that 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:51.640 will support them and make sure that they don't go 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.760 to jail for something that they haven't done. And it 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.640 happens all the time that you know, people victims are 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.240 mis identified as being perpetrators, and so that it's a 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.120 really important role. And I agree, and I know that 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.000 it needs to exist. And I kept telling myself in court, 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.120 this is a really important jack in balance in the 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.920 criminal justice process. This is really important. And my dad's 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:11.440 really good with those sorts of things, and he would 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.199 say that to me, you know, he would say, this 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.400 is really important because this is how it works well. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.600 He understood the well understands the court system. And I 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.560 was interested hearing your mother say, and your mother, who's 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.720 the pressure of a federal politician that she faces on 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.800 a daily basis, And she said she gave evidence at 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.080 the at the court matter for three hours and she 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.040 came home and she's never felt so traumatized. Yeah, and 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.560 then you're spending three maybe more days yea in spots, 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.840 But that gives an indication of just what the stakes 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.880 are in court and the pressure and the environment. 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.760 You start to even wonder if your name is your name, 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.760 Like everything feels like you're telling a lie, Like you know, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.840 I'll say, you know, miss Anna Koutstrotta, and then I'm like, 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:56.800 oh my god, is that even my name? Like it 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.280 was just I actually felt like I was this nasty, 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.200 manipulative person sent up there lying like I was convinced, 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.320 you know, not for very long, but that I was 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.280 I must be not telling the truth because this really 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.440 really smart, well paid Matt is telling me that I'm 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:11.960 lying and that I'm wrong about these things. So like 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.880 how can that, you know, how can those both be tried? 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.520 It can be so destroying and I'm resient. And that 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.160 is a world that I was very familiar with in 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.040 the witness box at giving evidence at court. But it 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:24.880 rips your part. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.760 I remember I was in the AVL room. I didn't 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.880 go in person, and I remember coming out of that 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.120 room and I stood up and I tried to walk 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:36.760 out the door, and I just fell on the ground 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:38.880 and I had to crawl out into the waiting room 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.400 where my parents were. And this was for my breaks, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.400 because the judge kept enforcing breaks on me because I 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.120 kept going, no, no, no, I'll just keep going. I 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:47.520 just want to get over and done with, because it 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.000 was just like the leaving and coming back was worse 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.760 than just going. But she knew I needed a break, 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.520 and I just remember dragging myself across the floor because 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.600 I didn't have the energy to walk. I couldn't do anything, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.400 and basically just being carried down to the car and 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.840 being driven home. I was asleep by five pm every 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.760 single night because court would finish at four, I'd be 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.640 home by five. I'd be asleep at five pm. I'd 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.640 wake up multiple times every hour throughout the whole night, 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.560 having nightmares about it, and then be awake from four 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.080 or five in the morning, just waiting because court can't 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.880 start till ten, waiting, waiting, waiting until I could go 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.800 back in. And then they'd have just so many breaks 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.080 and I was so need to just get this over 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.840 and done with. And I remember parking the car across 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.240 my parents, parked the car across the road from court 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:36.040 and walking across the road, and I would walk really quickly, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:37.440 and I would hope that I would get hit by 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.000 a car because I thought if I got hit by 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:40.800 a car, I wouldn't have to go in and give evidence. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.600 I was really hoping that something would happen and I 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:44.680 wouldn't have to go through. 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.760 A Look, I appreciate you being so honest and open. 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.840 And you know talking about going home and going to sleep, Well, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.360 I'll say I've had days in court. When I get home, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:56.840 I'll lay on the lande and I don't get off 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:00.560 the lunch. Yeah, it's just that raining and that exhausting 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.840 that I've got nothing left. So I understand what you're 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.960 going through. Other aspects about the court too, And this 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.320 is what people don't understand. I've had quite a few 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.840 guests that have made this point when they've got court 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:18.719 matters with particularly with child sexual assault matters in the family, 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.800 or people known within the within the circle of friends. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.240 It limits who you can talk to and what you 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.040 can talk about. Now, your parents, you couldn't talk to 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.359 them about what was happening in court because they were witnesses. 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.639 Now you've gone through all this trauma. Your safe place 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.840 is telling your parents everything that you're going through. But 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.440 the courts and the delays for the years not just 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.440 encourage you, they direct you. You're not allowed to speak 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.240 to a witness in this matter because it potentially contaminates 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:54.879 the contaminates evidence. I understand the concept and the principle, 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.360 but the realities are very traumatic for you, aren't they. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:17:59.000 Yeah. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:03.119 And the really classic example of that for me was 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.600 the defense. They just throw stories at you to kind 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.240 of something make my click, and then you know, the 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.600 jury will think if they throw out enough stories that 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:13.720 something might click for the jury. And one of the 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.919 things that they came up with was they knew I 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.000 had bruising. They had photos of the bruising. They needed 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.159 to explain the bruising, and so they said, well, your 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.160 dad gave them to you, and he may have given 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:24.800 them to you. And boxing, he's too rough with you 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.040 because we would do boxing together. And my dad has 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.800 never bruised me. He's never laid a finger on me. Obviously. 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:35.360 He's the most gentle kind, loving, feminist man like he's 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.320 He just that as an allegation to anybody that knows 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.880 him or doesn't know him, is just outrageous, but they 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.840 just he the defensively doesn't even believe that. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:46.359 They just need to, you know, throw stuff. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.199 And I just thought, I was just thinking about my 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.760 dad walking into the room next being the next person 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.760 to give evidence, and they say, we put to you, 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.680 mister Coopstratta, that the bruises on your daughter's body would 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.000 due to you. Like I just couldn't stand the idea 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:03.959 that they would say that to dad, and I couldn't 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:05.120 say anything about it. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.320 So, yeah, two wise people like you and I sitting here, 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.639 how can it be improved? I think the delay in 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.760 justice is a big thing. Like the perception is that 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.720 you report the matter to the police will get investigated 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.520 and the determination will be at courts, so you know, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.960 maybe we need to speed that up. But yeah, there's failings. 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:30.240 I hear a lot of even the police process, like 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.879 police not contacting complainants. 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:34.800 For months and months and months just no. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:36.760 News and then they ring up the station they say, oh, 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.639 they're on leave, and okay, well they didn't tell me 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:40.280 that they're on leave. 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:41.959 When are they going to tell me what's happening? And 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:42.919 like it's just. 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.640 Every single step of the process is lengthy, Like it's 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.520 you know, it starts with investigation. The police may decide 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.199 not to press charges, but they may have held on 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.679 to it for months before they make that decision. And 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.760 then going to court and then that takes, you know, 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.960 months and months for the prosecution lawyers to take on 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.639