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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives

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Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person has never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Anna

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Speaker 1: koot Strata. In part one, we discussed the emotional and

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Speaker 1: physical abuse and suffered as a fifteen year old schoolgirl

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Speaker 1: by her boyfriend. In part two, Anna shares what it

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Speaker 1: was like going through the court system and what actually

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Speaker 1: happened at court, and the lessons she learned about life.

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Speaker 1: We also talked in detail about the inspirational work she's

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Speaker 1: doing now as a co founder of the Survivor Hub,

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Speaker 1: where she and the team help empower people impacted by

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. I got to say I walked away from

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Speaker 1: the chat with Anna with a greater understanding of the

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Speaker 1: impact of crime and quite inspired by the work she's doing.

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Speaker 1: Have a listen, I think you will be too, Anna

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Speaker 1: kout Strata, Welcome back to part two of my Catchkillers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to ask a favor, and I don't

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Speaker 1: normally ask favors on the podcast, but can you put

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Speaker 1: in a good word to your father about coming on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I've followed his career and I think it's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: And the people that don't know of your father, his

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Speaker 1: backstory is that he spent three years in prison, and

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Speaker 1: I think he's supposed to boy for make mistakes, change

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Speaker 1: your life and rehabilitation. But we shouldn't be judged by

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Speaker 1: one thing that happens in life.

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Speaker 3: And Dad always says, He's always said this to me forever,

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Speaker 3: and it's not his quote, but he always says, you know,

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Speaker 3: we should never judge somebody by the worst thing they

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Speaker 3: ever did. And I've taken that with me through everything,

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Speaker 3: you know, through my social work and through people that

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Speaker 3: I meet and when I'm wronged and you know, things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, for what that's worth, I've watched the way he's

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Speaker 1: answered questions about you know, he's why he was in

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Speaker 1: prison related to drugs when he was very young, and

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Speaker 1: that he certainly redeemed himself. And I think he's a

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Speaker 1: great story high up in the public servant and the

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Speaker 1: roles that he's had and the criticism and they say

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Speaker 1: has come out and say well what's he doing there,

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Speaker 1: and the amount of people that support him, and the

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Speaker 1: type of type of work he's done. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a fascinating story. So can you put in a little

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Speaker 1: word for yes, okay, because I've looked for years at

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Speaker 1: getting him, so that would be great. Anyway, back to

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about. In part one, you told us

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Speaker 1: that you gave us an understanding of what happened with

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Speaker 1: the relationship with the person you assume from a fifteen

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Speaker 1: year old and the abuse that you suffered at this

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Speaker 1: person's hands. You've told your parents about it, and then

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Speaker 1: there was the reason that you went to the police,

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Speaker 1: and the police had got in contact with you in

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Speaker 1: relation to another matter, but that sort of escalated from there.

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Speaker 1: Then we just touched on the court matter and going

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Speaker 1: through court. And you also made reference to the fact

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Speaker 1: that the healing process took years, because a lot of

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Speaker 1: that time was dealt with after you've provided statements to

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Speaker 1: the police and reported the crimes against you. The court

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Speaker 1: process takes so long? Do you want to tell us

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Speaker 1: about the court process?

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Speaker 3: So I reported pretty soon after having left him for

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Speaker 3: the last time, and I, like probably most people who

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Speaker 3: have no experience in legal systems and court processes, thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: it might be like a few months. The police will

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Speaker 3: obviously have to investigate, they'll gather it all up, they'll

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Speaker 3: give it to a lawyer. The lawyer will have it

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Speaker 3: in court, might take a week or two something like that.

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Speaker 3: Wrap it up done. It'll take under a year for sure.

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Speaker 3: And then no, I think it took almost two years

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Speaker 3: just to get to court, and which is quick. That's

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Speaker 3: actually very quick. I know that I'm lucky for it

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Speaker 3: being you know, two years. And then it was in

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Speaker 3: court for a month, maybe a little bit longer. And

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Speaker 3: then he appealed the one guilty verdict, which meant me

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Speaker 3: to go back to court. The judges had to make

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Speaker 3: a decision for you know, I think it was a

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Speaker 3: few months, at least six months or something like that,

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Speaker 3: and then they came their decision, which was the appeal

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Speaker 3: was not successful and the you know, conviction was upheld,

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Speaker 3: and then we were worried that he might try and

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Speaker 3: a peel it again to a higher court. But thankfully

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Speaker 3: he wasn't allowed to or didn't. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: it was because he wasn't allowed, but he wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: been allowed anyway. And that whole entire process was at

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Speaker 3: least three years, could have been close to four or

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Speaker 3: five or something like that by the very end of it.

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Speaker 3: Like I was at university the whole you know, I'd

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Speaker 3: done half my degree by the time I was done

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Speaker 3: in court, which is pretty crazy.

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Speaker 1: Well, I got a sense of your thoughts of the

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Speaker 1: court process. We've I went through the transcripts when you

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Speaker 1: gave evidence that the Royal Commission into Domestic Family and

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Speaker 1: Sexual Violence in South Australia, you're asked the question when

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Speaker 1: you're giving evidence at the Royal Commission that you were

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Speaker 1: asked about whether the criminal justice process present the barrier

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Speaker 1: to recovery from domestic family and sexual violence, and this

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Speaker 1: is how you answered it. Yeah, I think it can

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Speaker 1: present a huge barrier to healing. And my experience of

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Speaker 1: the criminal justice process was it put my healing on

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Speaker 1: the hold for several years because become so wrapped up

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Speaker 1: in the process and in basically just staying live that

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Speaker 1: you don't really have much time to be healing and

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Speaker 1: to be not living in what I considered to be

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Speaker 1: fight or flight. It's we got it wrong, haven't we.

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Speaker 1: Like I know, you've got to have the checks and

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Speaker 1: balances in the courts, and we've got to have the

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Speaker 1: serial system, and it takes time. But the impact it

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Speaker 1: has on victims. And I've sat at this table on

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Speaker 1: the podcast speaking to so many people that have the

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Speaker 1: same complaints. How long the court process process takes? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you've just described the impact it has had on you,

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Speaker 1: or had had on you whilst you were waiting. How

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Speaker 1: many charges did it relate related to your manner?

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Speaker 2: There were five?

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Speaker 1: Right, okay? And my understanding, I'm just basing this on

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Speaker 1: on what I've read that he was convicted of one

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Speaker 1: of the offenses of serious assault from from your your

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Speaker 1: complaints giving evidence at court? How is that? And how

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Speaker 1: long were you in the witness box forum? And I

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Speaker 1: see you smile.

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Speaker 3: It was undescribably horrific, Like there are actually just not

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Speaker 3: words in the you know, English language that exists that

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Speaker 3: can describe how horrific the court process was for me.

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Speaker 3: I gave evidence over a series of days. I can't

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Speaker 3: remember now, it was at least three days, but it

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Speaker 3: also included a a Friday off I think because the

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Speaker 3: judge had another matter, and then a weekend and then

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Speaker 3: came back on the Monday, so it was I think

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Speaker 3: it was three days that week, and then a three

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Speaker 3: day weekend and then back for more evidence. So it

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Speaker 3: was just you can imagine what that weekend's like. I

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Speaker 3: didn't get out of bed, I didn't eat. I was

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Speaker 3: really lucky at that time to manage to eat one almand.

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Speaker 3: My mum was like, okay, let's think of something small

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Speaker 3: and like, you know, we'll.

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Speaker 2: Fill you up.

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Speaker 3: And she was like some almonds, like some nuts, and

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Speaker 3: like I would eat an almond and I would feel

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Speaker 3: sick immediately, and I was trying to drink like water,

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Speaker 3: and I could hardly manage anything.

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Speaker 2: I just couldn't couldn't get out.

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Speaker 1: Of bed, and that that reaction, like emotional and physically,

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Speaker 1: just what was it about court that traumatized you so much.

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Speaker 3: There's a famous Judith Hermann quote, and she's a therapist

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Speaker 3: in America, and she talks about if we were intentionally

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Speaker 3: to design like a system, a court system that would

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Speaker 3: provoke symptoms of distress, and basically the worst that you

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Speaker 3: could do, it would look how we do it right now.

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Speaker 3: It's the perfect storm of all of these really horrible

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Speaker 3: features combining together to make a really, really traumatic and

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Speaker 3: lengthy process. And part of that was, you know, I

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Speaker 3: have to get up in court in front of a

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Speaker 3: room full of strangers. Whether I'm via AVL or not,

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Speaker 3: I know that I'm speaking to a room full of strangers.

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Speaker 3: I tell them about the worst things that ever happened

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Speaker 3: to me. And then I have to, you know, I

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Speaker 3: have to be called names, told that I'm lying, you know,

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Speaker 3: told that I'm unreliable. I was accused of being sexually promiscuous.

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Speaker 3: I was accused of enjoying the things that some of

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Speaker 3: the acts that he'd done to me.

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Speaker 2: I was asked what I was wearing.

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Speaker 3: I was told it couldn't have happened, it's impossible that

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Speaker 3: it would have happened. I was told that I wanted it,

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Speaker 3: that I enjoyed it like it was just completely torn

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Speaker 3: down and I was up there basically like bearing my soul.

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Speaker 3: It's what it feels like, you're sharing something that you know.

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Speaker 3: I hadn't told anybody else. I hadn't told my parents'

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Speaker 3: level of detail. The only people who knew that were

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Speaker 3: the police that took my statement, the one police officer

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Speaker 3: who took my statement who was a woman as well.

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Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, I'm telling all of

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Speaker 3: these people in a courtroom and the person who's balanced

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Speaker 3: against me is sitting there. Was just horrific, and it

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Speaker 3: went for so many days, and you have to be

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Speaker 3: so completely on top of everything that you say, and

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Speaker 3: you know, there was one thing where I was I

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Speaker 3: had to count something. There was I don't want to

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Speaker 3: say too much, but I had to count something, and

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Speaker 3: I got it wrong. I thought there were thirty of them,

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Speaker 3: but there were nine of them. And it's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a feature of a house, like it's just something

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Speaker 3: that you don't even think about. And it would be

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Speaker 3: like if I asked you exactly how many meters tall

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Speaker 3: as your door or something like that, right, nobody could

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Speaker 3: answer that. You know, draw the pattern of the carpet

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Speaker 3: that you have at home. I couldn't even do that

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Speaker 3: because even though I look at it every day, I

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Speaker 3: look at it every day, so I'm not thinking about it.

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Speaker 3: And then you get you know, you come up and

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Speaker 3: they go, are you sure about this Smith's coops Tratta? Well, yes,

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Speaker 3: to the best of my recollection. Well, this photo here

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Speaker 3: shows you that you're a liar and that you've deliberately

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Speaker 3: lied about this.

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you. It's triggering me. It offends me so

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Speaker 1: much the way that that is approached, and it's about

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Speaker 1: discrediting you. Whether it's in front of a jury or

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Speaker 1: the magistrate. That's just creating doubts, like how many lights

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Speaker 1: have you got in the house, or how many lights

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Speaker 1: are in the house. I don't know, ten, maybe twelve?

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Speaker 1: Well you said ten, is it ten or twelve? That type,

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Speaker 1: and we show you.

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Speaker 2: It's actually fifteen. So you must be a liar.

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Speaker 1: I know you're looking at the court system, and because

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Speaker 1: of your experience, you look at it. But we've got

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Speaker 1: the adversarial system. But we've got it wrong in some way,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. It's just such a it's not about a

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Speaker 1: search for the truth. It's about who can perform better.

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Speaker 1: And there is a theater about the courts. And I

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Speaker 1: constantly hear victims when they're giving evidence in court how

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Speaker 1: traumatizing it is, and how you describe that, Like, I've

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Speaker 1: been the court and I've been the accused, I've been

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor, I've been the witness. I've been in courts

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Speaker 1: in every aspect and the pressure that's on you, and

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Speaker 1: I'm what would be called the professional witness, because that's

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Speaker 1: what I did in my career. But it was intimidating.

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Speaker 1: It It's an intimidating environment. Here you are, as a

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Speaker 1: young girl, been through something very traumatic. They speak in

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Speaker 1: a language it is hard to understand, and I think

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Speaker 1: solicitors often do that just to justify the money that

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Speaker 1: they get. They use words and try my.

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Speaker 3: Learned friend, learned friend, Yeah, I had more nightmares about

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Speaker 3: the defense lawyer than I did about the person who's

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Speaker 3: valanced against me.

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Speaker 2: It just couldn't stop thinking about him. I was so

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Speaker 2: scared of him.

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Speaker 3: And just like as you were saying it, it felt

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Speaker 3: like it was a game for him, like it was

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Speaker 3: really casual for him. This was just his everyday job,

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Speaker 3: and he gets thousands of our dollars an hour. He's

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Speaker 3: a really well paid, very senior barrister, and it was

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Speaker 3: just nothing to him. He hardly made eye contact with me.

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Speaker 3: He accused me of lying, and the person whose advanced

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Speaker 3: was just sitting up there in the box just absolutely

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Speaker 3: quite didn't.

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Speaker 2: Have to say a word.

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Speaker 1: Defense barristers justify that they're just doing the job, and

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Speaker 1: I support. We need the checks and balances, you know,

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Speaker 1: if someone makes an allegation that it's got to be

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Speaker 1: be proven. I've had opportunity where I get to speak

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Speaker 1: to law students and different environments, and I always say,

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Speaker 1: don't lose humanity, because that seems to be what's lost.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think there's you know, there's a difference

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Speaker 3: between respectfully asking people questions and you know, finding out

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Speaker 3: because everyone has a version of the events, right, Like

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Speaker 3: the statement that I gave is not exactly the truth, right,

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Speaker 3: it's my truth, and it's the closest to.

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Speaker 1: Ye.

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Speaker 3: It's my memory, and it's my memory during trauma. And

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Speaker 3: we know that memories pause like they pause creating during trauma. So,

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Speaker 3: to the very best of my recollection, this is what happened.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the answers are, But I just

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Speaker 1: my simplistic view of it is that we've just got

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Speaker 1: to keep you humanity in the courts.

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Speaker 3: Because it's an important role. And there are people who

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Speaker 3: are falsely accused of things all the time. They are

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Speaker 3: average and women who are falsely accused of having perpetrated

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Speaker 3: domestic violence, and they deserve the very best lawyer that

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Speaker 3: will support them and make sure that they don't go

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Speaker 3: to jail for something that they haven't done. And it

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Speaker 3: happens all the time that you know, people victims are

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Speaker 3: mis identified as being perpetrators, and so that it's a

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Speaker 3: really important role. And I agree, and I know that

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Speaker 3: it needs to exist. And I kept telling myself in court,

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Speaker 3: this is a really important jack in balance in the

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Speaker 3: criminal justice process. This is really important. And my dad's

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Speaker 3: really good with those sorts of things, and he would

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Speaker 3: say that to me, you know, he would say, this

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Speaker 3: is really important because this is how it works well.

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Speaker 1: He understood the well understands the court system. And I

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Speaker 1: was interested hearing your mother say, and your mother, who's

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Speaker 1: the pressure of a federal politician that she faces on

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Speaker 1: a daily basis, And she said she gave evidence at

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Speaker 1: the at the court matter for three hours and she

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Speaker 1: came home and she's never felt so traumatized. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then you're spending three maybe more days yea in spots,

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Speaker 1: But that gives an indication of just what the stakes

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Speaker 1: are in court and the pressure and the environment.

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Speaker 3: You start to even wonder if your name is your name,

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Speaker 3: Like everything feels like you're telling a lie, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: I'll say, you know, miss Anna Koutstrotta, and then I'm like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, is that even my name? Like it

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Speaker 3: was just I actually felt like I was this nasty,

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Speaker 3: manipulative person sent up there lying like I was convinced,

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Speaker 3: you know, not for very long, but that I was

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Speaker 3: I must be not telling the truth because this really

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Speaker 3: really smart, well paid Matt is telling me that I'm

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Speaker 3: lying and that I'm wrong about these things. So like

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Speaker 3: how can that, you know, how can those both be tried?

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Speaker 1: It can be so destroying and I'm resient. And that

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Speaker 1: is a world that I was very familiar with in

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Speaker 1: the witness box at giving evidence at court. But it

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Speaker 1: rips your part.

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Speaker 3: I remember I was in the AVL room. I didn't

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Speaker 3: go in person, and I remember coming out of that

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Speaker 3: room and I stood up and I tried to walk

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Speaker 3: out the door, and I just fell on the ground

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Speaker 3: and I had to crawl out into the waiting room

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Speaker 3: where my parents were. And this was for my breaks,

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Speaker 3: because the judge kept enforcing breaks on me because I

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Speaker 3: kept going, no, no, no, I'll just keep going. I

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Speaker 3: just want to get over and done with, because it

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Speaker 3: was just like the leaving and coming back was worse

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Speaker 3: than just going. But she knew I needed a break,

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Speaker 3: and I just remember dragging myself across the floor because

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Speaker 3: I didn't have the energy to walk. I couldn't do anything,

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Speaker 3: and basically just being carried down to the car and

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Speaker 3: being driven home. I was asleep by five pm every

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Speaker 3: single night because court would finish at four, I'd be

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Speaker 3: home by five. I'd be asleep at five pm. I'd

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Speaker 3: wake up multiple times every hour throughout the whole night,

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Speaker 3: having nightmares about it, and then be awake from four

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Speaker 3: or five in the morning, just waiting because court can't

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Speaker 3: start till ten, waiting, waiting, waiting until I could go

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Speaker 3: back in. And then they'd have just so many breaks

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Speaker 3: and I was so need to just get this over

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Speaker 3: and done with. And I remember parking the car across

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Speaker 3: my parents, parked the car across the road from court

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Speaker 3: and walking across the road, and I would walk really quickly,

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Speaker 3: and I would hope that I would get hit by

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Speaker 3: a car because I thought if I got hit by

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Speaker 3: a car, I wouldn't have to go in and give evidence.

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Speaker 3: I was really hoping that something would happen and I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have to go through.

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Speaker 1: A Look, I appreciate you being so honest and open.

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Speaker 1: And you know talking about going home and going to sleep, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll say I've had days in court. When I get home,

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Speaker 1: I'll lay on the lande and I don't get off

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Speaker 1: the lunch. Yeah, it's just that raining and that exhausting

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Speaker 1: that I've got nothing left. So I understand what you're

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Speaker 1: going through. Other aspects about the court too, And this

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Speaker 1: is what people don't understand. I've had quite a few

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Speaker 1: guests that have made this point when they've got court

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Speaker 1: matters with particularly with child sexual assault matters in the family,

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Speaker 1: or people known within the within the circle of friends.

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Speaker 1: It limits who you can talk to and what you

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Speaker 1: can talk about. Now, your parents, you couldn't talk to

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Speaker 1: them about what was happening in court because they were witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Now you've gone through all this trauma. Your safe place

350
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Speaker 1: is telling your parents everything that you're going through. But

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Speaker 1: the courts and the delays for the years not just

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Speaker 1: encourage you, they direct you. You're not allowed to speak

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Speaker 1: to a witness in this matter because it potentially contaminates

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Speaker 1: the contaminates evidence. I understand the concept and the principle,

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Speaker 1: but the realities are very traumatic for you, aren't they.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And the really classic example of that for me was

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Speaker 3: the defense. They just throw stories at you to kind

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Speaker 3: of something make my click, and then you know, the

360
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Speaker 3: jury will think if they throw out enough stories that

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Speaker 3: something might click for the jury. And one of the

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Speaker 3: things that they came up with was they knew I

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Speaker 3: had bruising. They had photos of the bruising. They needed

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Speaker 3: to explain the bruising, and so they said, well, your

365
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Speaker 3: dad gave them to you, and he may have given

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Speaker 3: them to you. And boxing, he's too rough with you

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Speaker 3: because we would do boxing together. And my dad has

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Speaker 3: never bruised me. He's never laid a finger on me. Obviously.

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Speaker 3: He's the most gentle kind, loving, feminist man like he's

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Speaker 3: He just that as an allegation to anybody that knows

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Speaker 3: him or doesn't know him, is just outrageous, but they

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Speaker 3: just he the defensively doesn't even believe that.

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Speaker 2: They just need to, you know, throw stuff.

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Speaker 3: And I just thought, I was just thinking about my

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Speaker 3: dad walking into the room next being the next person

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Speaker 3: to give evidence, and they say, we put to you,

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Speaker 3: mister Coopstratta, that the bruises on your daughter's body would

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Speaker 3: due to you. Like I just couldn't stand the idea

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Speaker 3: that they would say that to dad, and I couldn't

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Speaker 3: say anything about it.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, two wise people like you and I sitting here,

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Speaker 1: how can it be improved? I think the delay in

383
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Speaker 1: justice is a big thing. Like the perception is that

384
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Speaker 1: you report the matter to the police will get investigated

385
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Speaker 1: and the determination will be at courts, so you know,

386
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Speaker 1: maybe we need to speed that up. But yeah, there's failings.

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Speaker 3: I hear a lot of even the police process, like

388
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Speaker 3: police not contacting complainants.

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Speaker 2: For months and months and months just no.

390
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Speaker 3: News and then they ring up the station they say, oh,

391
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Speaker 3: they're on leave, and okay, well they didn't tell me

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Speaker 3: that they're on leave.

393
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Speaker 2: When are they going to tell me what's happening? And

394
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 2: like it's just.

395
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Speaker 3: Every single step of the process is lengthy, Like it's

396
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Speaker 3: you know, it starts with investigation. The police may decide

397
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Speaker 3: not to press charges, but they may have held on

398
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Speaker 3: to it for months before they make that decision. And

399
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Speaker 3: then going to court and then that takes, you know,

400
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Speaker 3: months and months for the prosecution lawyers to take on

401
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,639
Speaker 3: the case, read through everything. They go back to the

402
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 3: police they say, can you ask some more questions about this?

403
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: And you know, there's all these things that have to happen.

404
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 3: Then they've got to get a court date and that

405
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 3: could be a year or longer in advance, and then

406
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Speaker 3: court takes ages.

407
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Speaker 1: It only needs one hiccup that someone's not the viileable

408
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: all then that gets put back in the list.

409
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Speaker 3: I had a duror who haad COVID or something like

410
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Speaker 3: that that you know, extended it, Like all of these things,

411
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Speaker 3: they take so so long. And then you know, even

412
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Speaker 3: if you're really lucky and you do get a verdict,

413
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Speaker 3: you know, a conviction, a guilty verdict. I mean, they

414
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 3: always put notice into appeal because they've only got three

415
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 3: thirty days to do that, so they have they almost

416
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Speaker 3: all of them will do that just in case, and

417
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Speaker 3: then they look at their chances and so then you've

418
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Speaker 3: got to wait even more and then they decide whether

419
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Speaker 3: they put in that appeal or not. That could also

420
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Speaker 3: take a really long.

421
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Speaker 1: I've it goes over that time and they still are

422
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Speaker 1: allowed to appeal. Yeah, they appeal against not being able

423
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Speaker 1: to appeal, and they end up dragging meters on one

424
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Speaker 1: thing you mentioned there, and I think it's important talking

425
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Speaker 1: someone that's experienced a contact with police. And I say this,

426
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Speaker 1: when I was in the police, I felt like I

427
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Speaker 1: did this to the best of my ability, keeping victims

428
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Speaker 1: of crime informed on what's going on, because that seems

429
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Speaker 1: to be and people reach out to me and We've

430
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Speaker 1: reported this matter to police and I've got no feedback.

431
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,399
Speaker 1: They're not providing feedback. I think that would help a

432
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 1: great deal, don't you in the police just keeping you informed,

433
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 1: not giving you false hopes explaining what the situation is,

434
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: but you know exactly what's taking place.

435
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Speaker 3: I think the two main things that I always think

436
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: about that the police did really well for me was

437
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 3: that they kept me informed throughout the whole process.

438
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 2: It's a huge difference.

439
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 3: And the second thing was I knew they had a

440
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 3: personal investment in the outcome of the case. Like I

441
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 3: knew that for them. For Monika and for Tom in particular,

442
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 3: this wasn't just a job for them, and that completely

443
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 3: changed for me how it felt to go through the court.

444
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 1: When you're dealing with crimes of this nature and I

445
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: get showered down a lot, and people say, well, you

446
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: shouldn't make it personal, but I think you have to.

447
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: If I came to report the crime, a horrific crime

448
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 1: to the cops, I'd want them to go hard. That's

449
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: what you expect expect the police to do. And there's

450
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: different types of crime and different roles in the police,

451
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: but if you're victim based era of policing, you should

452
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: have to well not have to it should you should

453
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: want to go passionately and to do your job. And

454
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily getting the conviction, but knowing that you're

455
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: doing everything one way to find out where the truth

456
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 1: lies and find out what happens. But I'm glad with

457
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: all that you've been through at least you've got the

458
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 1: experience dealing with the two good police officers, because could

459
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: you imagine the layer added onto this And I've seen

460
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: this with people involved in murder investigations where the investigation

461
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 1: has been stuffed up or incompetent for whatever. Could you

462
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: imagine the trauma that adds to what you were going for.

463
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: I don't think I would have gone past the police

464
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 3: process if it wasn't for Monica and Tom.

465
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: You don't think I would have. I would have. Yeah,

466
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 2: Monica kept.

467
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 3: Me going through all of that, and she just she

468
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 3: was just so invested and she was so kind to

469
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: me and so like available to me as well. And

470
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 3: you know, nobody knows what to expect to this process,

471
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 3: but if I had questions, she was there and she

472
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 3: would answer them.

473
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: Now, before you went to the court, you went there

474
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,120
Speaker 1: a couple of days before just to get a feel

475
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: of the court. And you were sitting sitting on the

476
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: bench outside the court looking a little bit stressed, and

477
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: and you met someone and that was formed a relationship.

478
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: But also it was the genesis of the Survivor Hub.

479
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: Do you want to tell us through that story?

480
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 3: I talk about my friendship with back a lot, and

481
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: it was it was my friendship was Beck that that

482
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 3: made me came up with the idea of the Survivor Hub.

483
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 2: But Beck's not involved in the Survivor Hub herself.

484
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I was, I was at court and it

485
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: was a few days before and I just I couldn't

486
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 3: do anything. Probably a month before court, I couldn't do anything.

487
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 3: I was hardly out of bed, and I just remember

488
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 3: this extreme feeling of agitation and I was just I

489
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: just couldn't relax. And I just thought, I think I

490
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: need to go to court and see what it looks like.

491
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: And they kind of said that to me. They'd suggested

492
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 3: it to me as an idea, and I dismissed it.

493
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 3: And I had a witness assistance officer, deb who was

494
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 3: like a signed to me to follow me through the

495
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 3: court process, and she had offered to give me a

496
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 3: tour of the court and I just said no to her,

497
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 3: and I thought I didn't want it, and then two

498
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: days before I was like, no, actually, that's where I

499
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 3: want to be right now. So I went and I

500
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 3: went with a friend. At first she came with me,

501
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 3: and we just walked around the court and I just said, well,

502
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: I'm not going to walk into somebody's random court. You can,

503
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: like you're allowed to do that, but I'm not going to.

504
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 3: I said, so what do I do? I just want

505
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 3: to see what's it like. I want to see where

506
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: the judge sits. I want to see where the.

507
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,239
Speaker 2: Jury will be. I want to see where he's going

508
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: to be sitting.

509
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: I want to know what the cameras, where the cameras are,

510
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 3: what everything looks like. And I found so it was

511
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: just nobody was there. It was like just a ghost town.

512
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: And this one Salvation Army worker I think she was

513
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: from the Salvation Army. She said there are a few

514
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: sexual assault trials going on at the moment, and she

515
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,479
Speaker 3: wrote down the court room numbers. And I said, well,

516
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: there's no where I'm going inside, but I'll go and

517
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 3: sit outside and just I don't know, I'll just sit

518
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 3: down and I'll just think about it then. And I

519
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: sat down, and I noticed that Beckha was a stranger,

520
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: was looking at me quite a lot, and I was

521
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 3: a bit embarrassed, and I kind of thought, well, what

522
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: am I doing here? He may as well just be

523
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 3: sitting in bed if I'm just sitting here. And she

524
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 3: came over and she said, are you a journalist? And

525
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: I said no, I'm a complainer and I have to

526
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: go to court in a couple of days and I

527
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 3: don't know where else I can be right now except here.

528
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: And she said, well, that's my court case. Going on inside,

529
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: and I think it was a witness that was giving evidence.

530
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 3: She'd already finished only a couple days before, so she

531
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: was a few days ahead of me. And she sat

532
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 3: with me for about four hours, I think, and she

533
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: answered all of my questions, and she told me, you know,

534
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: if I can go through this process, then you can

535
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 3: do and you'll be okay. And I'd never I didn't

536
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: know that I knew other survivors at this time, and

537
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 3: I certainly didn't know any survivors had gone through the

538
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 3: court process. And I had been consuming all types of media.

539
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 3: I'd read Brayley's book Eggshell Skull and Chanelle Miller's book

540
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 3: Know My Name, and like, I just consumed everything TV shows,

541
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: anything that was about court.

542
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: I watched it, movies.

543
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: Anything, podcasts, anything, and people survivors weren't speaking as publicly

544
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 3: as they are now back then, like this is before

545
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: Grace Tane was Australian of the Year and before Britney

546
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 3: Higgins and Saxon Mullins. Was probably the only public survivor

547
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: that I kind of knew in New South Wales, like

548
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: knew of I mean from then. She would text me

549
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 3: every morning and she would send me videos, and I

550
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: have all these little clips on my phone and of

551
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: her just saying, good morning, have something to eat, have

552
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: a drink of water, You'll be okay, come find me

553
00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: at lunch time.

554
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 2: You know, she was just there.

555
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: And what the difference that would make, having someone that's

556
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: going through what you're going through, because unless you're going

557
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: through it, you don't know.

558
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like just an unimaginable difference, like just you know,

559
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 3: my parents were so incredibly supportive, and I had so

560
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 3: many people in my corner. My boyfriend at the time,

561
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 3: he was there every single day with me the entire day,

562
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: just waiting outside for me. He's just wonderful man. And

563
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 3: none of them had actually experienced it. And you know,

564
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 3: there war was office at the witness Assistant service officer

565
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 3: deb she hadn't experienced it herself. You know, she'd been

566
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 3: to heaps and heaps of trials, obviously in the room

567
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 3: with people, but as far as I know, she hadn't

568
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 3: experienced her stuff. She hadn't told me she had anyway.

569
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: The prosecution they'd been there as lawyers. The police, they'd

570
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: been there as police, but nobody had been a complainer.

571
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: So that you found the kindred spirit as such, someone

572
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: that understood all the emotions and you could talk talk

573
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: about what your concerns were without judgment.

574
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: Without you know, and she knew it, knew what it

575
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: was like.

576
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: Isn't it funny that you you spotted each other.

577
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's honestly, it's just such a stroke of luck

578
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: or you know, almost fat or something, because even though

579
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: it was still the worst experience of my life, I

580
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: know that a little bit of weight was taking off

581
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 3: my shoulders that afternoon, Like I remember feeling, you know,

582
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: I'm not carrying this alone anymore, and I know that,

583
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 3: you know, Beck's carrying this with me, and I'm also

584
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: carrying Bex as well. And you know, I waited, probably

585
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 3: almost as you know, desperately and anxiously for Beck's outcome,

586
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: as she did for her own, and she the same

587
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: for me, Like we were so invested in each other's Yeah, yeah,

588
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: And I remember feeling I just remember thinking I need

589
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: to replicate this feeling for other survivors and like, this

590
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: is where it's at in terms of support. And you know,

591
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: I was accessing counseling at the time. That counselor Emily.

592
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: From Full Stop.

593
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: She's wonderful and I save a lot of contact with her,

594
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: and she's puts a Survivor Hub and we've done panels

595
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 3: together and stuff as well. She's amazing and I've got

596
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: nothing except great things to say about the way that

597
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 3: she supported me. But I really needed to hear it

598
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 3: from someone who'd been through it, and that's exactly what

599
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 3: Back provided. And that's what we made when we created

600
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 3: the Survivor.

601
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: Hub, and that was the thought behind that you need

602
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: people that have experienced what you have experienced and been

603
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: able to talk freely ye the survivor and.

604
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: Make decisions as well.

605
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 3: Like a lot of it was about, like you know,

606
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 3: people will come to us and they say, should I

607
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: go to court?

608
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: And I would say, well.

609
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: We can't make that decision for you, but we can

610
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: tell you what it was like to go through court

611
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 3: and you can decide again.

612
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: And I'm referring to comments you made at the Royal Commission,

613
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: But you talk about some of the things that you

614
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: talk about the Survivor Hub, and they'll let you describe

615
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: the Survivor Hub, but I just in response to what's

616
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: a Survivor Hub all about? This is what you said.

617
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: Some of the common topics that we talk about would

618
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: be things like navigating intimacy posts, friendships, fallouts from friendships

619
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: so people are not being believed, disclosures, whether that to

620
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: be partners or parents or workplace things like that, the

621
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: court and reporting processes, types of therapy, new relations, things

622
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: like telling parents, and these are things you don't even

623
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: think about. It must be good to have a group

624
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: of people that you can sit down and discuss all that.

625
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you know, doesn't matter how supportive

626
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: the people are in your life. And I'm very lucky

627
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: that obviously very privileged to have really really supportive people,

628
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: and my parents and my friends and everybody. There's a

629
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: feeling that is completely unmatched about being in a room

630
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: with other survivors and knowing I don't need to explain

631
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: the basics at all here. I can just come in

632
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: red hot and say I've experienced this, what the hell's happening?

633
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: And people will go, oh, so have I? And I

634
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: think this about it, and then you can go, oh, yeah,

635
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: I think that probably makes you know that resonates with me,

636
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: or it might not, but it might also give you

637
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: clarity about why you know something's happened. And for a

638
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 3: lot of people it's things that they've held onto for

639
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: a very long time. And we have survivors of child

640
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: sexual abuse who come as adults in their fifties and

641
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: sixties in some places, in like some meet up locations,

642
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 3: I mean, and they've held onto it for their whole life.

643
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: And you know, they may have told their partner, they

644
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: may have told their children or a counselor, and may

645
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: have told nobody. And it happens a lot people come

646
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: into the space they've told nobody before, and they just

647
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: sit there and they go, you know, this is something

648
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: that's happened to me, and everyone in the room just

649
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:30,239
Speaker 3: gets it.

650
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: You made reference to a lady in the fifties that

651
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: came along and she experienced the sexual abuse twenty thirty

652
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: years ago, and she said, I just wish this was

653
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: here twenty five years again. Yeah, to be aut to

654
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: normalize the feelings and the processing the trauma. And yeah,

655
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: I think it's important that you're not discounting psychologists and

656
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: counselors and all that. But this hub is different. This

657
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: hub is about people who have experienced what you gone

658
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: through and being able to talk freely about it. Then

659
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: the other thing I picked up that you don't necessarily

660
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: have to go into the details of what your experience. No, people,

661
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: you just you start at the point, Okay, you don't

662
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: have to tell us what's happened. We understand what you've

663
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: been through.

664
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And there's a very sort of deliberate reason for

665
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: that as well. And part of it is obviously it

666
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: can be triggering to other survivors to hear explicit details,

667
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: but the main kind of philosophy behind it is that

668
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: we don't need to know what happened to you to

669
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 3: support you. And we also think like we're living in

670
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: the now. We're living in the healing and the recovery

671
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 3: and the aftermath, and we're living in all of these

672
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 3: things that you're experiencing right now that you know you

673
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 3: might not be happy with, like things like you know,

674
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 3: going back to the intimacy thing, people aren't you know,

675
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 3: aren't able to be intimate.

676
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: They're not happy about.

677
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: That, you know, in a lot of circumstances. And so

678
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: let's talk about that. And we don't need to know

679
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: about why it is that you can't experience that. We'll

680
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: just talk about what it feels like, and well, other

681
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: survivors will be able to say, well, my counselor did this,

682
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 3: or I tried EMDR and what really worked.

683
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: Or I tried.

684
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: Hypnotherapy and it really worked. And it's not medical advice,

685
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 3: it's not counseling advice.

686
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: It's not legal advice. It's peer advice.

687
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 3: This happened, you know, this thing happened to me, very

688
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 3: similar to you, and this is what I did about it.

689
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 3: And you now have all the information that you need

690
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: to make that decision for yourself. You know, if you

691
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 3: want to go and try this type of therapy, or

692
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: if you want to go to court, or you want

693
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: to go for you know, redress or whatever it may be.

694
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 3: This is my experience of it. Now you can decide

695
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: for yourself.

696
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: I would imagine that it's quite empowering for the individuals

697
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: to be able to contribute in the environment like that

698
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: and feel like they're helping people.

699
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I always think about it as like, you know,

700
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 3: it's the worst thing that ever happened to me. But

701
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 3: at least I could turn you know, something productive out

702
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: of it, something good came of it. And that is

703
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 3: that nobody has to go through what I went through

704
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: in that same way. If I can give them, you know,

705
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: the tools and the advice and the understanding and the

706
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: opinions that I have of my experience answers. I can stop,

707
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 3: you know, some small parts of what has happened to me.

708
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: And I would never tell somebody not to go to court,

709
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 3: like obviously you can understand from this episode that I

710
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 3: don't like it, but I would never tell. I would

711
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: never tell anybody. I would never make a decision for

712
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 3: somebody about that.

713
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: And I think with people that have experienced what you've

714
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: experienced too, it's about taking control. So you and now

715
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: can make the decisions what you want to do. Look

716
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: at the best advice you can give. These are all

717
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: the options. Yeah, and you're in control. It's interesting you

718
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: say that when you turn up there, that people don't

719
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: need to know what's happened, And I would imagine that's

720
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: what the Survivor Hub provides to you guys.

721
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's exactly the kind of feeling that we're

722
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 3: trying to give people. And you know, you can come

723
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 3: into that room. You don't have to explain yourself, you

724
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 3: don't need to make excuses. And as a survivor, we

725
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 3: spend so much time doing that in society, like we

726
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: send so much time trying to explain to people, you know,

727
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: for me, domestic balance, Why did I go back to him?

728
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: Like?

729
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 3: That doesn't make sense to somebody who doesn't who doesn't

730
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 3: have any understanding of domestic violence, and probably doesn't really

731
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 3: make sense to anybody who hasn't experienced it or experienced

732
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: some sort of similar dynamic to that. But when I

733
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 3: sit in the room with other people who've experienced domestic balance,

734
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 3: I don't need to explain that, and I don't need.

735
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: Myself.

736
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that understand where you're coming from. Okay, so

737
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: the idea was formed from meeting Beck at court, but

738
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: ideas and then putting it in the practice and getting

739
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: it to where you've got. Tell us about the process

740
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: of setting it up and how you came about that.

741
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: You're one of the co founders of it.

742
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so came very It actually really went quite quickly.

743
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 3: I was involved in another charity and that I wasn't

744
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 3: a co founder of, and one of the co founders

745
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: or the founder of that. She sort of had some

746
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: like she had some different ideas about that charity. And

747
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 3: I know I'm speaking a little bit cryptically, but it

748
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: sort of just doesn't really matter to the story. But

749
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 3: what we wanted to do was create a space where

750
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: people could come together and share. And we thought, okay, well,

751
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 3: this charity is not really how we want to do it.

752
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: We want to do peer support groups. And so we

753
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: just left and we'd connected with Brenda, who's the other

754
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 3: co founder of mine, who does the day to day running.

755
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: So she and I are the only ones that do

756
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 3: the day to day running, but there are four of

757
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 3: us originally, and then I brought in the other co

758
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: founder and we all came together and we were like, okay,

759
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 3: so what we want to do is create a space

760
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 3: for survivors to come together to vent, to share, to connect,

761
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: to give advice, to receive advice, you know, just be

762
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 3: with one another.

763
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 2: How can we do that?

764
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 3: And I really wanted to do peer support groups in person,

765
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: and they all wanted to do the same thing. And

766
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 3: within a month we had a name, we had a logo,

767
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: and we had a group running in Balmain. And that

768
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: happened because I went to my counselor, Emily at full

769
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: Stop and I asked her for a referral to peer

770
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 3: support and I said, I want, I want to do

771
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 3: peer support. Where can I do it?

772
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 2: In Sydney?

773
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: Or online, and she looked into it, she did some

774
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: research and she just said, well, that isn't anything, actually,

775
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: and I was shocked. It seems obvious. And I think

776
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 3: a lot of that. A lot of it came from Beck,

777
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: but a lot of it also came from my dad

778
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 3: having a long history attending NA meetings when he was younger,

779
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 3: and I kind of thought, NA but for survivors and

780
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 3: not so like prescriptive with the program and stuff like that.

781
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: More just drop in.

782
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: But the idea that you can sit in a room

783
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 3: and shed shame with people who just get it. And

784
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 3: so within a month we started a full stop Australia.

785
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 3: Emily provided the first location and Emily was a social worker.

786
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 3: So we have a social worker, a counselor a cycle

787
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: similar who attend every meetup as a support. They don't

788
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: talk in the meetup, so they obviously they can interact

789
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: in things, but they don't run it. And we're really

790
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: clear about that. They don't run it unless they're a survivor.

791
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: And that's an important thing that a lot of people

792
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't quite understand, but I understand the subtleties of making

793
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: sure it doesn't become like a counseling service or down

794
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: of a psychologist. It's the people that have experienced what

795
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: you've experienced, sharing their stories.

796
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 3: It's meant to be non hierarchical, like I'm not this

797
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 3: professional person teaching you things that you do in support groups,

798
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 3: teaching you counseling skills, and not teaching you breathing or

799
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: anything like that. Like I'm a survivor running a group.

800
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: I need it myself just as much as you need it.

801
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: And you made reference to INA and II all that

802
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: type of stuff, which is very similar in the in

803
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: the way that they go about their business as well.

804
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And a lot of the people that I talked

805
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: to really early days about the Survivor Hub are people

806
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: who are still in the program, and I talked to

807
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 3: them for advice, and I said, you know, I want

808
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: to start this for survivors of sexual violence, and what

809
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: are the principles of NA and AA that I can

810
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 3: use to create the space? Like these meetups are really

811
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: really well thought through, Like we have spent so many

812
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: years adjusting and perfecting and thinking, and every word that

813
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 3: we use in our run sheets and our group expectations

814
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: are incredibly like thought through, and we use that we're

815
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 3: all survivors, so only survivors have created those materials.

816
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: And done those run sheets and things. But I'm also

817
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 2: a social worker.

818
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 3: I was a social work student at the time, and

819
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 3: you know, I was talking to my teachers about it.

820
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: I was talking to like these so many other survivors

821
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 3: about it. Like it's it's very very, very thought through.

822
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 3: It's very intentional from the very beginning because we want,

823
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: you know, we want to create a space that's a

824
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: space for survivors to come together as a community, and

825
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 3: we want to be accountable to that and to always

826
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: create a safe space and you know, be ongoing and

827
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 3: have trauma informed principles and.

828
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 2: Things like that.

829
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: And you call your sessions meetups meetups, and how often

830
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: do you have them and what locations do you have them?

831
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 3: So most of them are monthly, but we also have

832
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 3: some fortnightly ones as well. I probably actually need a

833
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: list now to tell you all of the locations, but

834
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 3: we have three or four and in like Central Sydney.

835
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: We also have an LGBTIQA plus meet up in Sydney,

836
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 3: which was our first sort of like experienced specifical, like

837
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 3: population specific group. We have a meetup for parents partners

838
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 3: and family members in Sydney, and also one online.

839
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 2: And that's because we were having a.

840
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 3: Lot of survivors coming to us and they were kind

841
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 3: of saying, like my parents or my partner or whoever,

842
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: they just don't really get it, and I don't want

843
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: to have to be the one that needs to explain

844
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 3: it to them, and they need help.

845
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: Where can they go? So we created a space.

846
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: I understand the concept there because it's not just one life,

847
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: that's its people people.

848
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, we also have locations in Melbourne, Ballarat, quite a

849
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 3: few regional and rural locations with Broken Hill which is

850
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 3: far west New South Wales just where I live. We've

851
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 3: got Byron Bay, we have Gold Coast, Brisbane, Perth, Canberra,

852
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 3: hober Hearts. So we have all SATs and territories except

853
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 3: Northern Territory and South Australia. But I think we'll open

854
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 3: in Adelaide soon and I'm moving to the Northern Territory,

855
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 3: so I imagine we'll start and dealt and pretty soon too.

856
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: And then we have our online one for everyone. We've

857
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 3: got an online one for the defense and veteran community

858
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: as well, which was well that actually was our first population.

859
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: This is far, far reaching.

860
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: How long been going for four years?

861
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 1: Four years and you can put an appeal out out

862
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: now feel free?

863
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that has been the hardest, well it's been

864
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 3: the only hard part of it really. Like Brenda and I,

865
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: we we work on this full time. I have a

866
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 3: full time job as a social worker. Brenda's doing her

867
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 3: PhD full time. But we can't afford to pay ourselves

868
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 3: to do it full time. The meetups, they're funded by

869
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 3: grants that cover a year, and so every year we

870
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 3: have to reapply and every year we don't know if

871
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: we're going to get it, and we want to be

872
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 3: able to keep locations open. We have tried desperately to

873
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: never close the location because once we start something, we

874
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 3: want to stay, particularly in a rural in a regional area,

875
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 3: limited access to support, and when you come into those

876
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: communities you make a commitment to them by starting.

877
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: You want to stay.

878
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: And you know, having lived in Broken Hill, which is

879
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 3: a real town for like two and a half years now,

880
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 3: I know how important it is that we stay. So

881
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 3: grants and things cover it. We have a fundraiser every

882
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: year which gets us a little bit of money, but

883
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 3: not enough money to pay ourselves or anything. And then

884
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 3: we've had some really generous philanthropic donations, but not enough

885
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: to pay ourselves, so it's pretty tough.

886
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: If anyone wanted to reach out to you, how do

887
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: they find you.

888
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 3: We've got a website, the Survivor Hub. You just google

889
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: the Survivor Hub otherwise we also our email will come

890
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 3: up on there, but it's info at the Survivor Hub

891
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: dot org dot au. People also contact us through social media,

892
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 3: often Instagram or Facebook, things like that. We get a

893
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 3: lot of emails every day. It's pretty much full time

894
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 3: job just responding to emails. A lot of survivors reach

895
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 3: out to us.

896
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: How many people have been involved in the program over

897
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: the years just roughly participants.

898
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 2: Thousands, yeah, yeah, at least.

899
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: So we have one thousand, five hundred sign ups every

900
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 3: year at the moment that sign ups, so that means

901
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: that some people will come back, so it's not fully

902
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 3: that and it also means that sometimes people sign up

903
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 3: and they don't come they're not ready or whatever reason.

904
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: But easily thousands.

905
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 3: And then we have a Facebook group which is really

906
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,359
Speaker 3: popular that has I can't remember the top of my head,

907
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 3: but thousands of people on it and they're survivors asking

908
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 3: each other for advice and inventing in the same way

909
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 3: that you wouldn't have made up.

910
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: But they can do it anonymously.

911
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: And again that's giving them the control, isn't it. Yeah,

912
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: it's that control.

913
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what they do.

914
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: That's amazing that you've you've found purpose with that, and

915
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: it seems in the way you've explained that, it seems

916
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: like a no brainer. Yeah, something that's that's that's so good.

917
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was kind of the shock about it, Like,

918
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: how is it that in twenty twenty one we were

919
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 3: the first people to start a free peer support space

920
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: for survivors of sexual violence.

921
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: Like, you know, there are other people who do similar work.

922
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: There's Craig cash Moore, Hues from Survivors and Mate Support

923
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 3: Network Samson and he runs his organization runs peer support

924
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 3: groups for male survivors of child sexual abuse, so that's

925
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: kind of similar and it's a bit more programmed and

926
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: then they do have drop in sessions as well. But

927
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 3: we started to meet up a space for any survivor

928
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 3: older than sixteen, and it didn't exist at the time,

929
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 3: which is just quite shocking.

930
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you've explained it and thinking about how did

931
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: we miss that? I know we had victims of homicide

932
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: set up thirty years ago or yeah, or more because

933
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: there was people that want that shared experiences and so

934
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: they could understand what's gone on. Yeah, we touched on it.

935
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: But the impact that has on your family, and you've

936
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: talked about survivor Hub has a made up for family members. Yeah,

937
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: what was the impact that had on your family? What

938
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: you're been through, Like we've heard from your perspective, but

939
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: they obviously love you and care for you. What was

940
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 1: the impact that it had on your family?

941
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 3: It was huge impact. I think probably most obviously around Court,

942
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 3: because I couldn't hide how I couldn't hide the impacts

943
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: on me around that time, and I think a lot

944
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 3: of the other times I wouldn't talk about it around

945
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 3: my brothers because they were very young.

946
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Court, it.

947
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: Was pretty unavoidable that it was all I was thinking

948
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 3: about it. I was living in breathing Court. I wasn't

949
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: eating at the table with my family for dinner because

950
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 3: I couldn't eat. I was asleep by five pm. It's

951
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 3: impossible for people not to notice. And I remember my

952
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 3: youngest brother, Louis. He's ten years younger than almost ten

953
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 3: years younger than me. I remember the impacts on him

954
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: being really huge, particularly around court, because you know, he

955
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 3: was like seven or eight years old, and he'd known

956
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: that he knew that his sister had been really badly

957
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: hurt by somebody, and he didn't know the details because

958
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 3: he was too young, and we didn't talk to him

959
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 3: about it, and he could see me unable to eat,

960
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 3: you know, wasting away in front of him. Yeah, and

961
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: I remember him, both of my brothers having their own

962
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 3: feelings of like guilt and shame for not being able

963
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 3: to protect me, which is just like just so incredibly heartbreaking,

964
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 3: because you know, the only person who's at fault for

965
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 3: having used violence against me is a person who chose

966
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 3: to use violence against me. And then there's you know,

967
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 3: my baby brother, he was five when he would have

968
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 3: met my ex, who thinks he's somehow you know, got

969
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 3: some responsibility and having to have you know, protected me

970
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: and my parents obviously as well the same thing like

971
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: how could this happen to our baby girl in front

972
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 3: of us? But I think, yeah, particularly heartbreaking for me

973
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: to think about it, for my younger brothers.

974
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: Looking back, if there's young girls going through what you're

975
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: going or young boys for that manner. What are some

976
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: of the things What advice would you give to if

977
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: someone came and said, look, I'm in this situation, what

978
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: advice would you give advice or would you just say

979
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: these are the things you've got to look out for.

980
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really hard one because I mean I

981
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 3: do that for work. I have a lot of people

982
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 3: who are currently experiencing the mental mess advance that I

983
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 3: work with, and people need to come to the realization themselves,

984
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: and you can give them all of the tools and

985
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: information and advice, but people will continue going back until

986
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 3: they're ready to not go back anymore. You know, sometimes

987
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: you really worry about, like when there's children involved in

988
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 3: things like that, and that's been something that I have.

989
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 3: I deal with that work quite a lot. All I

990
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 3: can kind of do is put a seed of doubt

991
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 3: into people's minds and keep, you know, consistently trying to

992
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 3: put that seed of doubt into their mind that you know,

993
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 3: maybe this relationship isn't right. And all I can do

994
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 3: is hope that they'll be able to make that decision themselves.

995
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 3: And I think a really important thing when you're supporting

996
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 3: someone who's experienced messic violence. Is that consistency, and so

997
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 3: you know you're going to be frustrated. It's an inevitability

998
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: of supporting someone who will just continue to go back

999
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: to someone that you know is not good enough for them.

1000
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 3: I will, like I've said to my friends, I've had

1001
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: experienced many times I've said to my friends, you know,

1002
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 3: I don't think he's good enough for you.

1003
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: And I worry about you.

1004
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 3: And sometimes I've had to really like, I'm really worried

1005
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 3: about you, but I know that you're not going to

1006
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 3: leave until you're ready, and I'm going to be here

1007
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 3: when you're ready.

1008
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, that's that's good because I think part of

1009
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: the part of the concern in leaving relationships is you

1010
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: don't know what's on the other side. Yeah, And if

1011
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: you've got a friend or family member or someone saying, look,

1012
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: when the time comes, I'm here for you, Yeah, just

1013
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: that type of commentary might be of great comfort.

1014
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: And it's also really embarrassing, like being the person that

1015
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 3: goes back, Like I was embarrassed. I knew I deserved

1016
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 3: better towards the end, and I was embarrassed, and I

1017
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 3: didn't want to tell people about it, and so to

1018
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: know that there was someone like for me, it was

1019
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 3: going to be my parents and all my friends. You know,

1020
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 3: they were there in their own way that they'd forgive

1021
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 3: me for being a bit of an idiot and going

1022
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 3: back to him heaps of times. And I've said to

1023
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 3: my friends like, there's nothing that you can do to

1024
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: shake me, Like I will be here when you when

1025
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 3: you live.

1026
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 1: That's the type of support you need. Yeah, theseus, that's

1027
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: all you can really do.

1028
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 3: And after the Australian Story, biggest group of people that

1029
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 3: contacted us were not survivors. It was fathers mainly. Then

1030
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: next mothers of survivors, young women who are fifteen to

1031
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 3: seventeen years old, currently in or just recently out of

1032
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 3: experiencing domestic violence like it was. They saw my parents

1033
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 3: on Australian Story and they emailed us and they said

1034
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 3: what can I do for my daughter?

1035
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: Like what would you? What did your parents do?

1036
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 1: Right?

1037
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 3: Because it said there's all these people that are watching

1038
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 3: it happen and they just want to know how to

1039
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 3: be good supportive quar.

1040
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: Well, that to benefits and an important part of you

1041
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 1: guys speaking out and when I say you guys, because

1042
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: your family, your parents have spoken out as well. Yeah,

1043
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: but yeah, and it's something it was almost like the

1044
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: unspoken thing that was happening, domestic violence in young teenagers.

1045
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, and it's so so common. It really was

1046
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: thousands of emails that we and we still get emails now.

1047
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 3: And you know, there was someone recently her email from

1048
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 3: South Africa and I don't even know how she got, like

1049
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 3: who watches Australian Story in South Africa? But you know

1050
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 3: she emailed and then she started coming to our online meetups,

1051
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: I think, because you know she there wasn't anything like that,

1052
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 3: and you know, here she is seeing her story or

1053
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 3: something similar to her story represented in media. And I

1054
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 3: was so incredibly embarrassed to the Australian Story episode. I

1055
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 3: said no for so long and I really didn't want.

1056
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 2: To do it.

1057
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: Well, takes character. You're exposing yourself again, Yeah, record environment.

1058
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 3: But it feels a bit self indulgent to be doing

1059
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 3: media as well, and also being like her I am,

1060
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 3: and like having so much access to privilege as well,

1061
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 3: and you know, I had all these questions about, well,

1062
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 3: is my story the one that should be told in

1063
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 3: the media and all of that, and I still wrestle

1064
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 3: with that every time I do media, and I do

1065
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 3: believe that there are people's stories that I would rather

1066
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 3: shared before mine. But the reason I do it is

1067
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 3: because I'm privileged to be able to speak about it,

1068
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 3: and privileged, I think, to be able to explain concepts

1069
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 3: to people, and I want to be able to use

1070
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 3: that privilege for good and to speak publicly. And I

1071
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 3: also just want people to know about the Survivor Hub

1072
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 3: and know that there's a place that they can go

1073
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 3: when they feel alone and they feel that people don't

1074
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 3: understand them.

1075
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: Well, look, from my point of view, you don't have

1076
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: to justify why you've done any of that. I think

1077
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: it's so impressive. I really do the fact that it

1078
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: would the simplest thing for you to be would have

1079
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: been to walk away from all this and just go, Okay,

1080
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: that was in the past. I don't even want to

1081
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: talk about it. So you are doing good. And I

1082
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,439
Speaker 1: think your dad summed it up nicely where he said,

1083
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, from a terrible thing that's happened, there's some

1084
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: good that's come out of it, and the good being

1085
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: that you're bringing some public attention to it and what

1086
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: you're doing with the Survivor Hubman. You've been a champion

1087
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,479
Speaker 1: for social justice right from the start with saving South

1088
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: Sydney Rugby League Club. How old were you eighteen months

1089
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: South Jersey, So look at you and you're still continuing.

1090
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: I was going to talk about restorative justice. It's a

1091
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: topic in itself, and I heard that conference you guys

1092
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: you were coordinating and experts talking about in regards to

1093
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 1: sexual assaults and how that can be empowering to what's

1094
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that restorative justice space.

1095
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Deacon Greenwood came to us from Transforming Justice

1096
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: Australia and they do restorative justice work, and I didn't

1097
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 3: know anything about it. And I did have a friend

1098
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 3: who'd attempted to go through restorative justice and the person

1099
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 3: who advanced against had declined and so she couldn't go

1100
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 3: any further, which I have a huge issue with because

1101
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 3: how can you say notice someone who you've caused harm to?

1102
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 3: But that was through the through a formal process, not

1103
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 3: through Transforming Justice Australia. But I was really interested in

1104
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 3: the idea because court didn't work for me, and I

1105
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 3: knew that court didn't work for.

1106
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 2: Everyone I've spoken to.

1107
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: Really, I don't know if there's anybody who has worked

1108
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 3: for and even when you get a guilty verdict, people

1109
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 3: will say that they don't feel a sense of justice

1110
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: from that. They you know, they may feel a small

1111
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 3: shred of relief, but they don't really feel justice.

1112
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 2: That's what being tired.

1113
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: I often still feel violated from what they went through.

1114
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they never get custodial sentences. And some of

1115
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't even want custodial sentences, Like

1116
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 3: there's some statistic that more than eighty percent, it's probably

1117
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 3: way higher don't want custodial s.

1118
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: I think restorative justice, and it's such a complex issue

1119
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: and that each case is different and each crime is different,

1120
00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: but it's basically making people accountable for their own Yeah,

1121
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, there is some space in it. And

1122
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: if it's if you've been just picking a subject to

1123
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: sexual assault or sexual abuse, it might be quite empowering

1124
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: to be able to tell that person what the impact

1125
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: it's had other people would be the last thing they

1126
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: want to do, and I respect that. Yea, it's something

1127
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: that we should should look at. We should explore all options.

1128
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. I never kind of went through that court process

1129
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,879
Speaker 3: wanting him to be punished, like in some sense, you think,

1130
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 3: you know, you need to be held accountable because you've

1131
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 3: caused me harm, but I didn't. It wasn't really like

1132
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 3: I'm going into this because I want him to go

1133
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 3: to jail. It's never really about that. It was just

1134
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 3: I want him to know that this is bad and

1135
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 3: that this has really really hurt me. And restorative justice

1136
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 3: can give you that, but the traditional legal process can't.

1137
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 2: In my opinion anyway, I have a lot.

1138
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: Of kind of questions about restorative justice, Like I don't

1139
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 3: think it's a perfect process. Like I'm not really going

1140
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 3: to say, you know, abolish courts and do that stead

1141
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,479
Speaker 3: yet well, yeah, and to some extent, I do believe

1142
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: that we should just abolish it and just like rebuild

1143
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 3: it and do that in a big way with it.

1144
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 3: You know, a lot of consultation, a lot of surviving

1145
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 3: and things like that.

1146
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,240
Speaker 2: But for right now, there are some kind of problems.

1147
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: I feel like some people could be manipulated into the process.

1148
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 3: So for people who may have been harmed by a

1149
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 3: family member, other family members might say, don't take him

1150
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 3: to court, let's do this.

1151
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 2: Resort of justice.

1152
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 3: He can say sorry and we'll have it over and

1153
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 3: done with and they do have checks and balances on

1154
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 3: that so that it doesn't happen, but it still can happen,

1155
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: and people there's you know, problems with the legal process

1156
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 3: as well. So I'm not saying that it's either or

1157
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 3: it's better there. It's not better there. So I do

1158
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 3: have a lot of questions about it. I'm not like

1159
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,320
Speaker 3: a one hundred percent die hard advocate for it, but

1160
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 3: I'm very interested in it, and I think that I

1161
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 3: can imagine that it would be a really really beneficial

1162
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 3: process to a lot of people. I think if I'd

1163
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 3: known what court would have been like, and I'd been

1164
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 3: offered to choose between the two, would have just picked

1165
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 3: the restorative justice. You know, there was a time, probably

1166
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 3: for two years after I last saw him, after I

1167
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 3: left him, where if he had just genuinely repented to

1168
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 3: me about what he'd done, I may have just been

1169
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 3: able to kind of forgive him. But then again, in

1170
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 3: domestic violence, and this is why they often don't use

1171
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 3: it for domestic violence, they do repent and they do

1172
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 3: show remorse, and they do look like they're doing that,

1173
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 3: and sometimes maybe they are genuinely repentful, remorseful for a bit,

1174
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 3: And what would it have looked like for me to

1175
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,919
Speaker 3: sit in a room with him saying whatever he needed

1176
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 3: to say, you know, sweet talk to get me to

1177
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 3: not take him to court.

1178
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: So I have questions.

1179
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's a difficult part with domestic violence offenders that, yeah,

1180
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: they manipulate to start with. I do think they need accountability.

1181
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, society needs to turn on them and

1182
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 1: get no, mate, that's not on them, And blokes need

1183
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: to play a part in it, as in standing up

1184
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: against other blokes that they suspect of being involved in

1185
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: domestic violence. But just some form of accountability. It's acknowledging

1186
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: what they've done is not acceptable.

1187
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think ultimately the most important part in all

1188
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 3: of this is survivors agency in autonomy and choice. So

1189
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 3: you know, if the legal process is something that they

1190
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 3: think they'll get something out of, go ahead and do it.

1191
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 3: If restorative justices, go ahead and do it like it really.

1192
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: Get the control back to the people that yeah, impacted upon. Well,

1193
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: they bought in the victim impact statement for homicides. It

1194
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: would have been twenty years ago and I was involved

1195
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: in the first homicide where it was used in court,

1196
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: and I thought that was the first time, courts and

1197
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: the legal fraternity didn't like it. And I think it

1198
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: was the murder of Eileen Cantlay and the elderly woman

1199
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: that was murdered and had a victim impact statement, and

1200
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: the courts were horrified. How dare someone offer an opinion

1201
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: on the impact this crime has had other than the courts?

1202
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: But empowers people, empowers the people that have been family

1203
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: members killed, the impact that has and that might mean it,

1204
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: you know, the psychopath that might be the killer mightn't

1205
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: have any impact, but there's some there with the victim

1206
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: being able to say, this is what you did to me,

1207
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: this is how it made me feel, and this is

1208
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: the impact, and let them sit with that.

1209
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 3: I think courts and lawyers in particular as a profession

1210
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 3: are so scared of victim's anger. They're so scared of

1211
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 3: the fact that we actually feel emotions and anger and

1212
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 3: frustration and sadness and fear and whatever it may be

1213
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 3: in response to the fact that we've been harmed. And

1214
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 3: it's so hard for people to kind of like hold

1215
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 3: space for that emotion, like particularly that emotion anger, like

1216
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 3: it's okay, you've been wrong, someone has hurt you. Yes,

1217
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 3: in my case, someone that I really loved or you know,

1218
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 3: thought I really loved.

1219
00:58:57,560 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 2: He has hurt me.

1220
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 3: It's okay to feel angry about that, but the legal

1221
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 3: system has no space for that kind of emotion and

1222
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 3: victim impact statements being brought in for homicide like that

1223
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 3: was a really big deal, as you say, because it's

1224
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 3: bringing emotion into a process where you're not meant to

1225
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 3: be emotional, but how can you not.

1226
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: Be well, Yeah, the legal systems there to support the

1227
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: society that say the serve, and I think emotion does

1228
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: come into it. That's the important thing. The thing that

1229
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: impresses me about what you're being through is that you're

1230
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: not coming across as as bitter. I can tell that

1231
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: you enjoyed life. You've got you can have a laugh,

1232
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: and you're getting on with your life. And full credit

1233
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:41,919
Speaker 1: to you to like for turning turning a bad thing

1234
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: into giving you some purpose in life. And clearly your

1235
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: parents have brought you up with the right sense of

1236
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: social justice. And I think we're going to probably hear

1237
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: more about you. I don't think you're going to stop.

1238
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: You're leaving a big footprint. Yes, in this world.

1239
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 3: My dad said to me around court, he said you're

1240
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 3: my and it is like Waterfront Point Piper, multi million

1241
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 3: dollar real estate.

1242
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: Don't let him live there. Don't let him live in there.

1243
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: Well that's the advice. Your dad goes.

1244
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, well done, he said, don't don't let him take

1245
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 3: up any of his space. And I'm you know, when

1246
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 3: you're in court, it's unavoidable. That's going to happen for

1247
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 3: a bit. But after that, everything that's happened since then,

1248
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 3: you know, the charity moving to Broken Hill.

1249
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 2: I'm about to move to Northern Territory. All of the

1250
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 2: good things in.

1251
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 3: My life, the travel, the friends, the people that I love,

1252
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 3: everything that's got nothing to do with him nothing.

1253
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the perfect way of dealing with it.

1254
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: And good on your dad for giving giving them. What

1255
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: are you doing in Northern Territory.

1256
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 3: I've taken a new social work role in Norlan Boy,

1257
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 3: but I'll be kind of going back and forth in

1258
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:50,959
Speaker 3: other communities as well.

1259
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's that's important work. And I would imagine

1260
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: very satisfied.

1261
01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's amazing, It's yeah, I'm so lucky. Just yeah.

1262
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: I love being a social worker.

1263
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 3: I love all of the clients that I get to meet,

1264
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 3: and I think no One and boys can be really

1265
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 3: cool new experience.

1266
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I've enjoyed

1267
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: the chat. And yeah, people that are listening to it,

1268
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: have a look at the Survivor Hub and the work

1269
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 1: that they're doing. And yeah, I think you've really feel

1270
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: the space that needed to be filmed.

1271
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, It's awesome.