1
00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,240
Speaker 1: You can listen to the Front on your smart speaker

2
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: every morning to hear the latest episode. Just say play

3
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:22,760
Speaker 1: the news from the Australian. From the Australian, here's what's

4
00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: on the Front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Tuesday, July thirty.

5
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,840
Speaker 1: Aerial patrols of Australia's Northern coastline have slumped, with operations

6
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 1: sovereign Borders cutting back flights by twenty percent each year,

7
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,879
Speaker 1: even as boat arrivals increase. It's the first challenge for

8
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:50,240
Speaker 1: new Immigration and Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke. The militant

9
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 1: Construction Union CFMAU could be in administration for years. That's

10
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 1: according to New Workplace Relations Minister Murray Watt. In an

11
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 1: exclusive interview now at The Australian dot com dot you,

12
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: John Perros, the man acquitted of murdering Shandy Blackburn, is

13
00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: suing Shandy's sister, journalist Hedley Thomas, and the publishers of

14
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,680
Speaker 1: The Australian over our podcast Shandy's story. In today's episode why,

15
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,360
Speaker 1: John Perros says the episode caused him serious harm and

16
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:35,800
Speaker 1: what the publishers say in reply. Before we start This

17
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 1: episode contains some adult language. One matter of fact, it

18
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,160
Speaker 1: was him. That's Shanna Blackburn, the sister of Shandy Blackburn,

19
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,520
Speaker 1: who in twenty thirteen, at the age of twenty three,

20
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 1: was murdered in a stabbing frenzy by someone who is

21
00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:02,919
Speaker 1: still at large. Peros, the man you heard Shanna accusing,

22
00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 1: has always denied killing Shandy, his ex girlfriend. Those words

23
00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 1: spoken by Shanna in episode thirteen of The Australian's investigative

24
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 1: podcast Shandy Story are now the subject of a defamation case.

25
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,679
Speaker 1: John Perros is suing Nationwide News, the company that publishes

26
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,000
Speaker 1: The Australian, and Shanna herself, as well as our national

27
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 1: chief correspondent Hedley Thomas, who reported and hosted Shandy Story.

28
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 1: We've used voice actors throughout this episode to bring you

29
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 1: the words spoken in the Queensland Supreme Court on Monday.

30
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 2: These are the.

31
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 1: Words of Barrister David Helvajian, acting for Peros.

32
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 3: Episode thirteen publishes one of the most serious defamatory imputations

33
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:53,440
Speaker 3: known to society.

34
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 1: This hearing is not the defamation trial. It's a pre

35
00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,280
Speaker 1: trial hearing to determine whether or not John peer Ross

36
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,760
Speaker 1: was caused serious harm by the publication of episode thirteen

37
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 1: of Shandy story released in December twenty twenty one. Shandy

38
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,520
Speaker 1: was violently murdered on February ninth, twenty thirteen, as she

39
00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 1: walked home from work after midnight. The killer stabbed Shandy

40
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 1: dozens of times, leaving her to die in a gutter.

41
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,359
Speaker 1: If you've listened to Shandy's story, you'll remember this harrowing

42
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 1: audio of the person who discovered her body on a

43
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: Mackay street calling triple O.

44
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 4: Is she awake?

45
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 5: No?

46
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 3: Is breathing?

47
00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 2: Third?

48
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 5: She don't look at all man, So concern to me?

49
00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,240
Speaker 6: Is she breathing at all?

50
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:50,240
Speaker 2: Available?

51
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 4: No?

52
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:52,720
Speaker 1: No, not at all, not at all?

53
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,360
Speaker 6: What is your name?

54
00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 1: What is your name? In twenty fourteen, Shandy's ex boyfriend,

55
00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,400
Speaker 1: John Perros, a talented local boxer and diesel fitter, was

56
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 1: charged with Shandy's murder. He was found not guilty.

57
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 5: When a jury found John Perros not guilty of Shandy

58
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,840
Speaker 5: Blackburn's murder in twenty seventeen, it left her family and

59
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,160
Speaker 5: the Mackay community with even more questions. He was accused

60
00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,280
Speaker 5: of stabbing Shandy Blackburn more than twenty times on her

61
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,359
Speaker 5: way home from work in twenty thirteen.

62
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,479
Speaker 1: That verdict meant Peros was free to get on with

63
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 1: his life. But in twenty nineteen, a coroner conducted an

64
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 1: inquest into Shandy's death. The coroner, David O'Donnell, compelled John

65
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: Perros to give evidence after Perros initially refused on the

66
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,800
Speaker 1: ground that the evidence would tend to incriminate him. There's

67
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 1: a rule in coronial proceedings that evidence given under compulsion

68
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,720
Speaker 1: in an inquest cannot be used in other proceedings. On

69
00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,359
Speaker 1: twenty one August twenty twenty, the coroner found Perros had

70
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 1: in fact killed Shandy with a bladed instrument. The coroner

71
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,640
Speaker 1: also said he believed the evidence of certain witnesses about

72
00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: John Perros, including that Peros had said to friends phrases

73
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,720
Speaker 1: like this about Shandy, I fucking hate that cunt, and

74
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 1: something like she would be better off dead. I hate

75
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,039
Speaker 1: her and I would love to stab the cunt. We've

76
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: used a voice actor to bring you those words. From

77
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:33,240
Speaker 1: the coroner's findings. The coroner also found that a white

78
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 1: ute seen on CCTV near the scene of Shandy's death

79
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 1: at approximately the time of her death was in fact

80
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,080
Speaker 1: John Perros's car. Peros said he couldn't remember whether he

81
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,919
Speaker 1: had driven on that street at that time or not.

82
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,880
Speaker 1: But even though the coroner found John did kill Shandy,

83
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 1: he was not charged again because Perros had already been acquitted.

84
00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 1: The legal principle of double jeopardy means you can't be

85
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 1: tried for the same offense twice. There are exceptions, including

86
00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,720
Speaker 1: when fresh and compelling evidence that wasn't presented in the

87
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:15,039
Speaker 1: first trial becomes available. But Peros has not been charged again.

88
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 1: He's got on with his life, including working in the

89
00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 1: mining industry in Wa. In December twenty twenty two, he

90
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,839
Speaker 1: was found guilty of an assault at a BHP mind sight.

91
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: Perros was fined two thousand dollars and granted a spent conviction.

92
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,279
Speaker 1: Here's how The West Australian reported it at the time.

93
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,520
Speaker 6: John Perros claimed a trial he was acting in self

94
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 6: defense when he laid into Alexander Gell. The forty year

95
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 6: old fly In Flyout worker, beat and kicked mister Gall

96
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 6: so badly it left him with significant facial injuries and

97
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,800
Speaker 6: the loss of a tooth. In court on one day,

98
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 6: John Perros's lawyer argued his reputation was caused serious harm

99
00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 6: by episode thirteen of Shandy's story.

100
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,560
Speaker 3: As your honor knows, the crime of murder in this

101
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,720
Speaker 3: state carries a life sentence. It is probably society's greatest crime.

102
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 3: To label someone the murderer of another person is just

103
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 3: of the highest seriousness. However, to do so as part

104
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 3: of an investigative true crime publication from a mainstream media

105
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 3: company and from a journalist with a credible history in

106
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 3: these matters is even more serious.

107
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 1: So Helvajin is saying that if this had been published elsewhere,

108
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,040
Speaker 1: it might not have caused the same level of harm.

109
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 3: Your honor would know The Australian as a mass media

110
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 3: publication of serious repute. It's not a tabloid or a

111
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 3: daily rag type publication.

112
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 1: I've got to jump in here to defend tabloids. By

113
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 1: the way, the shape of a newspaper doesn't determine its quality,

114
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 1: and plenty of outstanding journalists and great journalism in tabloid papers. Anyway,

115
00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 1: back to David Helvagian.

116
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 3: Secondly, you ought to be aware of the name Hedley

117
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,960
Speaker 3: Thomas and that he is a journalist who not only

118
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,360
Speaker 3: led the Shandy Story podcast, but he's also the second defendant.

119
00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,520
Speaker 1: At this point, the judge weighed in this is a

120
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: voice actor reading justice. Peter Applegarth's words, I.

121
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,160
Speaker 2: Made a disclosure before hearing back in April that I

122
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,280
Speaker 2: met mister Thomas professionally many years ago, but I haven't

123
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 2: seen him in person or spoken to him for sixteen years.

124
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,400
Speaker 3: In that time period, he has become a brand name

125
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 3: in true crime podcasts.

126
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 2: He'll forgive me if I haven't listened to his podcasts.

127
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,200
Speaker 3: As of today, approximately three hundred and eighty thousand people

128
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 3: across Australia have heard the Imputation. Episode thirteen had a

129
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:02,439
Speaker 3: far greater reach across Australia than the reporting the coroner's finding.

130
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 1: And this is where the real case begins. Helvajian On

131
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: behalf of Perros says, even though the coroner in twenty

132
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 1: twenty found John Perros killed Shandy Blackburn, his reputation was

133
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 1: largely unharmed until Headley, Thomas and Shandy's story came along

134
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,440
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one.

135
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 3: The other inference clearly is a podcast such as this

136
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 3: would not have approximately three hundred and eighty thousand downloads

137
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,400
Speaker 3: in Australia if it wasn't credible. So just the fact

138
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 3: it's a highly popular and shared and considered podcast is

139
00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 3: the circumstance of publication.

140
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,840
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if circulation means something's credible. In America,

141
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,079
Speaker 2: at least you have these lunar people who have all

142
00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:50,680
Speaker 2: kinds of conspiracy theories.

143
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,320
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a very good point.

144
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break. What lawyers for the Australia

145
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 1: are arguing, as you just heard David Helvagian say, where

146
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 1: a mass media publication of serious repute. He's a subscriber.

147
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,079
Speaker 1: You should be too. Join us for just a dollar

148
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,679
Speaker 1: a week for the first four weeks at the Australian

149
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,200
Speaker 1: dot com dot Au. We'll be back after this break.

150
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 3: Just listen to this.

151
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:37,200
Speaker 1: Her ex absolutely did it. That's a Reddit user with

152
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,559
Speaker 1: the handle bard Girl twenty three, commenting in early twenty

153
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,240
Speaker 1: twenty two, shortly after the public release of episode thirteen

154
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,440
Speaker 1: of The Australian's podcast Shandy Story, someone called Blonde our

155
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:56,800
Speaker 1: Buckle agrees one hundred percent he did, and another Reddit user,

156
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,800
Speaker 1: Nora Ldora, says, I'm listening now and I feel it

157
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,559
Speaker 1: so clear that it was the ex.

158
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,840
Speaker 6: The crime was so personal and John was abusive to Shandy.

159
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: It's crazy that he was acquitted. These posts are part

160
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 1: of the evidence from John Perross's lawyers in his claim

161
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,199
Speaker 1: that The Australians podcast caused serious harm to his reputation.

162
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,720
Speaker 1: You've already heard Peros's arguments. This is what the lawyers

163
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,439
Speaker 1: for the other side say.

164
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,040
Speaker 4: A coroner made a finding that Miss Blackburn died as

165
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 4: a result of a violent assault where she was stabbed

166
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,640
Speaker 4: multiple times after being ambushed in the street. The coroner

167
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,720
Speaker 4: found that the plaintiff in these proceedings was responsible for

168
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 4: her death. That is a fact that cannot be ignored.

169
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 1: Those are the words of Doward Sibtaine. Sc sibtain is

170
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,720
Speaker 1: a silk engaged to defend Nationwide News Headley Thomas and

171
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,480
Speaker 1: Shanna Blackburn in the defamation action brought by Perros. In

172
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,640
Speaker 1: defamation cases, it's up to the plaintiff to prove that

173
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,440
Speaker 1: they suffered serious reputational damage by the publication they're complaining about,

174
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 1: and if the material was published to a large number

175
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,480
Speaker 1: of people, say hundreds of thousands, courts in the past

176
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,640
Speaker 1: have inferred that the reputational harm must be serious. The

177
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,040
Speaker 1: Australian's lawyers are challenging this rule. They're saying the plaintiff

178
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily come to court with a good reputation and

179
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,280
Speaker 1: it's up to the plaintiff in this case, John Perros,

180
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,920
Speaker 1: to prove that the publication in this case, Episode thirteen

181
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:38,200
Speaker 1: seriously damaged the reputation they had. We've used a voice

182
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,680
Speaker 1: actor to bring you Dowd Sibtain's words.

183
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,120
Speaker 4: What is required is for this court to undertake a

184
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 4: determination as to what was the plaintiff's pre episode thirteen

185
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 4: reputation and his post episode thirteen reputation, and then having

186
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 4: done that, to determine whether or not the harm occasion

187
00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 4: to his reputation was caused by the publication can concerned.

188
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 1: Often in defamation cases, someone comes before the court to

189
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,960
Speaker 1: say they know the plaintiff, the person who's suing, and

190
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,120
Speaker 1: was shocked when they encountered the allegedly defamatory publication. They'll

191
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 1: usually say the publication made them think less of the

192
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: plaintiff and wonder whether they really had done something wrong.

193
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 1: In this hearing, Justice Peter Applegarth wandered aloud whether he

194
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,960
Speaker 1: would be presented evidence from anyone along those lines. A

195
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,400
Speaker 1: person not a Reddit user like Nora Ladora or bard

196
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,800
Speaker 1: Girl twenty three, who says they considered Perros a good

197
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: person before hearing episode thirteen and considered him a murderer afterwards.

198
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 2: I'm trying to grapple with what the plaintiff says was

199
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,840
Speaker 2: the harm to his reputation, because traditionally we've had plaintiffs

200
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 2: who come along and they say I was well regarded

201
00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 2: in my community, and then after the Courier Male published

202
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,480
Speaker 2: that article, people treated me finally in the street and

203
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,560
Speaker 2: invitations dried up, and I lost my job, and I

204
00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 2: was walking down the street and someone yelled out, you crook.

205
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 4: I can assure your honor. There is none of that,

206
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,559
Speaker 4: not one word. What there is first losing his job.

207
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 4: He lost his job around the time of episode one.

208
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 4: There isn't a single person on a hearsay basis or

209
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 4: otherwise who has said I heard episode thirteen and this

210
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 4: is what I thought of him. It's somewhat curious the

211
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 4: plaintiff is not giving evidence on this, but the evidence

212
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 4: what there is, the scant evidence, requires such a tortured

213
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 4: and fanciful approach to inferential reasoning that your honor could

214
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,080
Speaker 4: not conclude that he suffered serious harm.

215
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,320
Speaker 1: Peros's counsel, David Helvadjian, said he did tell the defense

216
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 1: lawyers they would not be putting on any more evidence,

217
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 1: but in fact, if the matter proceeds to trial, his

218
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: side would potentially be adding more evidence of damage to

219
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 1: Peros's reputation, and Helvagian said regardless, the Reddit posts were

220
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: evidence of episode thirteen helping people make up their mind

221
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,480
Speaker 1: ends that John Perros was a killer.

222
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,440
Speaker 3: That evidence is rebuttal evidence to the idea that there's

223
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 3: a settled view in the community that he is a

224
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,080
Speaker 3: violent killer, because otherwise, why else would they feel the

225
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 3: need to post and share. The Reddit comments show it

226
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 3: was episode thirteen that caused the harm.

227
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on the front. You can keep

228
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: up with this story, listen to Shandy story yourself, and

229
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 1: read all our outstanding journalism right now at the Australian

230
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,120
Speaker 1: dot com dot au