WEBVTT - Should granny-killer cop be jailed? 

0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.280
<v Speaker 1>From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:13.880
<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, November twenty eight. Chris Bowen says more renewables

0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:17.400
<v Speaker 1>means a more secure energy supply in his annual Update

0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:21.000
<v Speaker 1>to Parliament. The Climate Change Minister will also say unreliable

0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.599
<v Speaker 1>coal fired power stations are to blame for energy shortages

0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:29.200
<v Speaker 1>and blackouts. The Reserve Bank is unlikely to budge on

0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.360
<v Speaker 1>interest rates even though inflation is hovering at its lowest

0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:36.440
<v Speaker 1>level in more than three years. To read all our

0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:44.120
<v Speaker 1>experts analysis of that, go to the Australian dot com

0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:46.920
<v Speaker 1>dot U. Police officer Christian White is facing a jail

0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.760
<v Speaker 1>sentence after a new South Wales jury found him guilty

0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.040
<v Speaker 1>of the manslaughter of ninety five year old great grandmother

0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Claire Nowland. White tasered the elderly lady inside her nursing

0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.720
<v Speaker 1>home as she clutched a steak knife and a walking frame.

0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.720
<v Speaker 1>Today what the judge must weigh when deciding whether to

0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:16.440
<v Speaker 1>send him to prison. That's today's story.

0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Guilty, so says your foreman, So say you all.

0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.800
<v Speaker 1>This was the moment police officer Christian White was found

0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.880
<v Speaker 1>guilty of the manslaughter of ninety five year old nursing

0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.000
<v Speaker 1>home resident Claire Nowland in the New South Wales Supreme

0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Court in Sydney. We've used voice actors to bring you

0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.280
<v Speaker 1>the words spoken in court, including those of the presiding Judge,

0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:39.959
<v Speaker 1>Justice Ian Harrison.

0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.800
<v Speaker 3>Thank you members of the jury that completes your task

0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.800
<v Speaker 3>in this court. I thank you on behalf of the court.

0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.200
<v Speaker 3>You may now return to the jury room.

0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it was incredibly shocking news.

0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Claire. Ellie Dudley is The Australian's Legal affairs correspondent and.

0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.760
<v Speaker 2>I think that was one of the most striking things

0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:03.800
<v Speaker 2>when we saw that footage, when we heard the story.

0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Is the idea that someone couldn't disarm her, or a

0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.680
<v Speaker 2>working police officer couldn't deal with this situation in any

0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:13.200
<v Speaker 2>other way than by tasering her.

0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Something just didn't quite stack up. Four generations of Claire

0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Nolan's family gathered at the Deacon Oval to witness her feet.

0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:28.079
<v Speaker 1>Clare alland marked her eightieth birthday by jumping out of

0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.440
<v Speaker 1>a plane. Claire received a give certificate for the jump

0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:35.080
<v Speaker 1>for her birthday in February and today was the big day.

0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.240
<v Speaker 1>We both feet back on the ground. The Great grandmother

0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.040
<v Speaker 1>couldn't have been more thrilled.

0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh fantastic, Tommy.

0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:43.960
<v Speaker 2>I've always wanted to.

0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.040
<v Speaker 4>Do and I've done that thanks to all your kids.

0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Fast forward fifteen years and Clare Alland had moved to

0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.920
<v Speaker 1>a nursing home in her hometown of Cooma in New

0:02:54.960 --> 0:03:00.480
<v Speaker 1>South Wales. She was suffering dementia. It was at ya

0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.680
<v Speaker 1>Lambe Lodge in the early hours of May seventeen, twenty

0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.040
<v Speaker 1>twenty three, that her life came to an end.

0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.520
<v Speaker 3>The ninety five year old grandmother allegedly tasered by a

0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.160
<v Speaker 3>New South Wales police officer last week, has died, prompting

0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:16.400
<v Speaker 3>tributes from her family.

0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.399
<v Speaker 1>Nursing home staff called police because Claire Alland had acquired

0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:25.200
<v Speaker 1>a stake knife from the facility's kitchen and they weren't

0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.919
<v Speaker 1>able to take it from her. Police officer Christian White

0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:32.639
<v Speaker 1>claimed he issued a number of warnings to Claire as

0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.360
<v Speaker 1>she approached him with both hands on her walking frame.

0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.720
<v Speaker 1>A voice actor is reading the words allegedly spoken by

0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.680
<v Speaker 1>Christian White during the confrontation.

0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.000
<v Speaker 5>You could coming. You're going to get tased.

0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:52.120
<v Speaker 1>The prosecution alleged White then said bugger and discharged his taser.

0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.040
<v Speaker 1>Claire Awland fell backwards and hit her head on the floor.

0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.680
<v Speaker 1>She weighed just forty seven kilograms the time of her

0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:06.400
<v Speaker 1>death got her missus Nowland succumbed to injuries in hospital

0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.000
<v Speaker 1>a week later, at which point the thirty four year

0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.840
<v Speaker 1>old Comfortable was charged with recklessly causing River's bodily harm,

0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.960
<v Speaker 1>assault occasioning actual bodily harm and common assault. Those charges

0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:23.720
<v Speaker 1>were upgraded to manslaughter in December. Now, this is something

0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.800
<v Speaker 1>that is always difficult and controversial when a police officer

0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.000
<v Speaker 1>deploys deadly force. Another police officer in New South Wales

0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.479
<v Speaker 1>was hailed as a hero this year during the Bondi

0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Junction massacre for taking down an assailant. It really showed

0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:42.120
<v Speaker 1>that the stark contrast between the way two different officers

0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:44.039
<v Speaker 1>handled two different offenders, doesn't it.

0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And I think with the Bondai Junction massacre,

0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.440
<v Speaker 2>the offender there was going on a stabbing rampage through

0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.120
<v Speaker 2>a shopping center. In this situation, you've got this incredibly

0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:58.480
<v Speaker 2>vulnerable elderly lady who's shuffling her way through a nursing home.

0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.080
<v Speaker 2>Watching that CCTV footage of right is so striking because

0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.440
<v Speaker 2>she does not seem capable of harming anybody, and so

0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:07.960
<v Speaker 2>this idea that the taser was the only way that

0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.280
<v Speaker 2>she could be disarmed is quite unbelievable.

0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.280
<v Speaker 1>White faced a two week trial in the New South

0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Wales Supreme Court and pleaded not guilty to the manslaughter charge.

0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Crown Prosecutor Brett Hatfield their Sea argued White breached his

0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.560
<v Speaker 1>duty of care to clan Eland and caused her death

0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:32.159
<v Speaker 1>either due to dangerous behavior or negligence, but the barrister

0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:37.360
<v Speaker 1>representing White at trial, Troy Edwards, sc said the Constable

0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.080
<v Speaker 1>was justified in discharging his taser because of the immediate

0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.839
<v Speaker 1>threat to his safety and the safety of others. White

0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.240
<v Speaker 1>gave evidence in his own defense, saying he believed the

0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.480
<v Speaker 1>situation would only be resolved through the use of force.

0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:53.600
<v Speaker 1>We've used a voice actor to bring you his words.

0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.560
<v Speaker 5>I understood it was going to cause her some sort

0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.800
<v Speaker 5>of injury and pain, but I felt that the risk

0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.320
<v Speaker 5>it elevated to the point where it needed a resolution.

0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.040
<v Speaker 5>It's not our job to shy away from those types

0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.840
<v Speaker 5>of incidents. I never intended for her to be injured

0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:07.600
<v Speaker 5>by it at all.

0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Many of missusn Allan's eight children twenty four grandchildren and

0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.839
<v Speaker 1>thirty great grandchildren sat in the public gallery for the

0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:18.680
<v Speaker 1>duration of the proceedings.

0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.640
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the most frustrating parts about this job

0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.040
<v Speaker 2>sometimes is not not being able to hear why a

0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.279
<v Speaker 2>jury makes the decision. The word that really sticks out

0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.760
<v Speaker 2>to me there is immediate, the immediate threat. There was

0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.160
<v Speaker 2>nothing immediate about this lady. She wasn't moving quickly, she

0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.920
<v Speaker 2>didn't seem like she was going to make any abrupt movements.

0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.880
<v Speaker 2>She was clearly able to be outrun. And so I

0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.560
<v Speaker 2>think I understand. While we don't know the exact reason

0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.080
<v Speaker 2>why the jury made their decision, I would have to

0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.040
<v Speaker 2>assume that it has something to do with the fact

0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.680
<v Speaker 2>that this woman was not an immediate threat to this

0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.560
<v Speaker 2>police officer because there were so many other opportunities for

0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.120
<v Speaker 2>him to take care of the situation other than deploying

0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:56.040
<v Speaker 2>his taser.

0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Coming up, What do you do with a guilty police officer.

0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.080
<v Speaker 3>So that there's no secret about it. I will not

0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:26.120
<v Speaker 3>commit a policeman to custody until I understand the conditions

0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.640
<v Speaker 3>under which he will be held. If he is to

0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:29.520
<v Speaker 3>be held.

0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Justice N. Harrison put on a rare display of frustration

0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.760
<v Speaker 1>in the New South Wales Supreme Court on Wednesday. His

0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.240
<v Speaker 1>words were read by a voice actor. The distinguished Judge's

0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.920
<v Speaker 1>name will be familiar to listeners of The Front and

0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.720
<v Speaker 1>the Australians podcast series The Teacher's Pet. It was Justice

0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.559
<v Speaker 1>and Harrison who presided over the twenty twenty two murder

0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.840
<v Speaker 1>trial of rugby league star Christopher Michael Dawson. There was

0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.400
<v Speaker 1>no jury in that trial due to the immense media

0:07:55.520 --> 0:08:00.000
<v Speaker 1>interest generated by our podcast. Investigated by national Chief Corspar

0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.200
<v Speaker 1>Hedley Thomas, Justice Harrison found Chris Dawson guilty of the

0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.320
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty two murder of his wife, Lynnette Simms.

0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.080
<v Speaker 4>Christopher Michael Dawson on the charge that on are about

0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.120
<v Speaker 4>eight January nineteen eighty two, at playview or elsewhere in

0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.840
<v Speaker 4>the state of New South Wales, you did murder Lynette Dawson.

0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:21.560
<v Speaker 4>I find you guilty the message there.

0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Dawson is serving a twenty four year sentence for the

0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:33.760
<v Speaker 1>crime after unsuccessfully appealing his conviction. Sometimes when defendants are

0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.000
<v Speaker 1>found guilty of a crime like manslaughter, they're taken straight

0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.280
<v Speaker 1>into custody. Here's how it happened with Chris Dawson.

0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.480
<v Speaker 4>Mister will be necessary to be taken into custody.

0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.080
<v Speaker 1>But because Christian White is a police officer, there are

0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:52.559
<v Speaker 1>extra considerations. That's a fact Justice Harrison acknowledged after the

0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.360
<v Speaker 1>jury's verdict was handed down.

0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm not going to be too specific about it, but

0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.720
<v Speaker 3>this is not a usual situation.

0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.480
<v Speaker 1>White's barrister, Troy Edwards sc made an application regarding if

0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.200
<v Speaker 1>and how White might be detained to protect his personal

0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.400
<v Speaker 1>safety until he's formally sentenced. He's Ellie Dudley.

0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Putting a police officer in jail would be putting them

0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.559
<v Speaker 2>in a terrible situation, more terrible than any other regular civilian,

0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:24.320
<v Speaker 2>because police officers are obviously so hated by criminals. I

0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.640
<v Speaker 2>was having a chat with a criminal barrister earlier today

0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.160
<v Speaker 2>and he was saying, well, we know that the maximum

0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.840
<v Speaker 2>sentence that Christian White could serve is twenty years. He

0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.680
<v Speaker 2>was expecting it to be much lower than that, somewhere

0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.200
<v Speaker 2>around the five year mark, if not lower. And he

0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.959
<v Speaker 2>was saying that's because it's likely the judge will take

0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.760
<v Speaker 2>into account circumstances that he was in He was called

0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.120
<v Speaker 2>out to a job, this woman was wilding a knife.

0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.640
<v Speaker 2>He was doing his job, and that will all be

0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.319
<v Speaker 2>taken into account when it comes to sentencing. But if

0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.800
<v Speaker 2>he does end up serving a custodial sentence, it will

0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:54.760
<v Speaker 2>be really difficult because he will likely end up in

0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.400
<v Speaker 2>protective custody. That's with incredibly dangerous criminals and other cops

0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:01.920
<v Speaker 2>as well. With we will make serving that sentence incredibly hard.

0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:09.360
<v Speaker 1>Ellie Dudley is The Australian's Legal affairs correspondent. You can

0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.760
<v Speaker 1>read all her outstanding reporting anytime at the Australian dot

0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:14.640
<v Speaker 1>com dot au