WEBVTT - How this lawyer won an unwinnable case: Judith Fordham Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.800 In part two of my chat with former criminal barrister 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.240 Due for Them, Judith continued to entertain me with stories 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.040 from the bar table. Judith also took us inside the 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.400 jury room, and some of the things you said might 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.920 make your question whether the jury system has had its 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.080 We also found out how Judith defended a client accused 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:06.560 of stabbing the person, a case that she thought was 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.080 impossible to win, And we had discussion about forensic science 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.880 in the criminal justice system. This was a really unfiltered 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.080 look at the justice system. I think you're going to 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.800 enjoy it as much as I did. Judith for them. 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.759 Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers. 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.240 Thanks for having me back. After the first first part. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.039 We considered that we had a discussion off Mike and 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.680 we said no, we'll let you back for the second part. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.040 Can I ask you about you winning the unwinnable case, 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.280 and the way you described it to me was you're 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:45.720 perfect that you're representing a client that had gone into 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.520 a room and got into a fight with the person 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.840 in the room. The person hadn't been stabbed when your 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.320 client walked in the room, and when your client walked out, 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.240 the person had been stabbed in the back, in the back. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.600 Take it take and you can't stab yourself back by 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.360 the way, I have one trials where we ran the defense. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.920 He cut his own throat and that's been successful. But 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.840 you can't do his stab himself in the back. It's 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.079 just not going to work. This is a client who 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.880 came in to see me late in the day, and 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.280 she won't mind if she's still around, she won't mind 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.880 being identified. I know, because this may identify to someone 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.200 who actually knows her, but she won't have a problem 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:32.240 with it. She came in and she walked into my office, 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.480 and I'm sorry, but she wasn't very well dressed. There's 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.280 a reason that I say that she's looking pretty daggy. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.680 And she'd been a gem FOSSi or opal prospector in 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.880 an outback town where they have gems and opals there, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:55.240 trying not to identify things. But she was a transsexual. 0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:01.000 And sadly, because many trans sexual clients I've had have 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.600 got wonderful dress sense, she was standing behind the door 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.760 when dress sense was being handed out, as my mother 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:09.280 would have said. And so she came in looking pretty daggy, 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.840 with terrible taste in makeup and clothes and everything. But 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.880 she was very upset, and she came in and she said, 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.920 I don't want to go to a men's prison. I said, well, 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.800 how about stop a minute. How about you tell me 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.800 what you're supposed to have done or what you haven't done. 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.040 Is how I often opened an interview with a client. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:28.680 Tell me what you haven't done, tell me what they 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.200 reckon you've done. So I just don't want to go 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.520 to a men's prison. When I get convicted. I said, well, 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.080 let's just see if you're going to get convicted first. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.880 And as time went on, I was starting to agree 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.520 that she would get convicted because what had happened the 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.200 background of the story was that she'd collected a whole 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.960 lot of gems in her prospecting days. And by the way, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.000 she had to be pretty tough, because if you're going 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:56.680 to be in an back town like that as a prospector, 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.000 it's a pretty rough and tough, blokey sort of a world. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.280 So she was pretty handy with a fist, had to be. 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.600 And she was big too, she was probably six foot 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:11.960 three and quite solidly built. Now she'd got all these 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.320 gems and she'd come to Perth to and she'd made 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:20.280 these dreadful souvenirs. I'm sorry, if you're listening, I'm sorry 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.279 I called your souvenirs dreadful, but they were. She'd made 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.320 these Jarrah maps of Australia, varnished them. And what you 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.320 do is you Arrol died on a precious stone where 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.040 each state capital is in the leaf TASMANI you're off 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.240 because that's just too darn hard. You can't do that, 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.599 and you flog them as souvenirs and you make money. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.320 And she was going to make money for her gender 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.840 reassignment surgery. You can't. It's not sex change. It's a 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:51.279 gender reassignment because you're being assigned the gender that you've 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:57.159 always felt you were. Okay, And she went to a 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:01.400 fairly cheap boarding house in Perth with all her Jerrem 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.200 maps of Australia, and she met this young man who 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.919 was quite personable, and he said, I'll sell them for you. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.320 You know, I reckon, I get about thirty five thousand 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.520 dollars worth of this lot or whatever the amount was. 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.680 And great, she is impressed by him. Okay, you take 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.120 them and you sell them. And he came back later on. 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.800 I think he only had about fifteen hundred dollars and 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.560 all the maps are gone, and it's like, where's me money? 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:33.360 Her money was probably up his arm. I suspect, you know, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.400 it was in the days of Heroin. I to remember 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.080 where he would have injected and bought injected himself and 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:41.760 blown a lot of the money and brought back what 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:48.160 was left. And she was pretty angry, and they had 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:53.080 they had a real, really intense argument about this in 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.440 the sort of lounge area of this boarding house, and 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.640 it evolved into a fistfight. And as I said, my 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.360 client was, you know, really could handle herself in that situation. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.800 She wasn't charged with thumping him, though, she charged with 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:12.560 stabbing him because although there were only two people in 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.480 the room, him and her, and he didn't have a 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.520 stab wound when he entered the room, and he did 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.920 at the end of the altercation, and no one else 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:24.880 had come in. I asked her all of this, did 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:25.760 anyone come in? 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:26.280 No? 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.480 Did he have a stab wound when he came into 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:34.200 the room. No, did he have one at the end? Yes? 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:35.640 Did you stab him? 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:36.080 No? 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.400 I'm going I actually went read my lips. I cannot 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:46.000 win this trial. You are going to have to plead guilty. 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.680 I mean, she's sort of an answer to how do 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.000 you defend someone you know they're guilty. I tell them 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.039 to plead guilty. I tell them they're insane. If they don't, 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.000 I don't care. I didn't do it. How do you 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.840 get the stab wound? I don't know. Oh, you know, 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.240 read my lips again. I still didn't know how I 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.680 was going to win the trial, but she insisted on 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.600 going to trial. In fact, her main question was what 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.760 do I wear? She said, well, I come secretary, Will 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.720 I come astronaut? And I said, well, come secretary. That 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.960 was a mistake. I should have said astronaut, because yeah, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.040 she I seem to remember she was wearing blue sparkles 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:29.440 and white gloves. I could be wrong, but astronaut would 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.040 have been worse, I guess, because it would have been 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:31.680 a silver lama. 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.560 But anyhow would have made a statement. 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:40.000 So I'm at the beginning of the trial and how 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:41.840 am I going to defend her? And I'm looking at 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.400 the crime scene photos again, just as you do, going 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.480 through everything you've got. And it dawned on me, dawned 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.520 on me, and thank Heaven's it dawned on me before 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.440 the trial and not after, because I could never forgiven myself. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.920 There were some stairs leading from this room, and no, 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.360 it wasn't that. Somebody came down the stairs with stairs 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.680 leading from this room upstairs to the kitchen, and I 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.040 said to her, I said, where did the stairs go 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.680 out of the kitchen. There was a plastic bag on 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.560 the stairs, just like a Wooly's bag or a coal's bag, 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.960 something like that. And the bag looked like it had 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:17.880 been damnag. I had, you know, had they made of 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:19.880 not great plastic? And I had like a split in 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.840 the bag. I said, whose bags? That shit, that's mine? 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:26.560 I said, well, what was in it? She said it 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:27.920 was me dinner. I was going to go upstairs the 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.960 kitchen cook me dinner. I said, so what was in it? 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:35.160 She oh, you know, me bread and you know, butter 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.960 or margarine or whatever, and misteak and me fork and 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:46.000 me knife knife, and there's a split in the bag. 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.520 I worked out what had happened. They'd had a punch up. 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.840 He'd fallen back on the stairs. The knife was in 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:59.040 the bag at such an angle that he actually fell 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:04.080 on the knife. The defense was he fell on the knife. 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.840 Luckily he only had one stab wound, because you're not 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.880 going to be able to run. He fell on the knife, 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.600 got up, ran backwards and fell on the knife four 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:12.280 more times. 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.079 But well, that would have been a hard one to acplain. 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.640 So how did that play out at the trial? Did 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:21.560 the trial commence? 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:29.559 The trial commenced, and she gave her evidence, and we 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.040 explained to the jury why she looked the way she did, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:37.880 because they would have been wondering. And she gave not 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:43.560 the explanation weed rehearsed, but another explanation I said to 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.440 her because we had to explain what the money was 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.120 for and why she was so upset, you see, So 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.040 it was actually an essentral part of the background. So 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.400 I said, you know, what was the money for? Why 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.080 were you so angry? Because she admitted hitting him? You know, 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:57.640 she wasn't charged with hitting and she was charged with 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.880 something called unlawful wounding. I probably should have said that 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.000 which involves stabbing, so she wasn't charged with punching him. 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.960 So why were you so angry? He stole me money? 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.880 And what was your money for? It was for me 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.199 my operation, and what was your operation for? It was 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:18.160 for me, you know, gender reassignment surgery, and what was 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.720 that for? And she was supposed to say, was to 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.640 make me look more feminine? In fact, she was supposed 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.600 to I was going to ask a leading question. I 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.440 was going to say, was it to make you look 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:30.920 more feminine? Which is technically a leading question, But no 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.000 one was going to object, So I knew I could 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:34.600 get away by asking it was it to make you 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.200 look more feminine? But she forgot what she was supposed 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.560 to say, So I said, was it to make you 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.360 look more feminine. She said, Nah, it's just going to 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.320 cut me dick and me balls off. Nothing's going to 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.920 make me look more feminine. And I went, oh, you 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.920 could have heard a pin drop. The judge glared at me, 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:58.600 like this is all my fault instructing say that I 0:10:58.720 --> 0:10:59.520 hadn't at all. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:04.280 She was supposed to say no, but you instructed her 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:09.520 to say what was appropriate or the one but you can't. Yeah. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.600 It makes for court It makes for court room drama. Yeah, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:14.840 things like I reckon. 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:17.280 My little theory is that the jury thought no one 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.600 could give an answer like that not be telling the truth. 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:20.880 I reckon it. 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:27.280 Probably I've seen witnesses that come in there and or 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:33.600 people involved in trials that they're too stupid to lie, 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.640 like in the way that they're giving evidence. And that's 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.520 sounding like I think I'm smart, but there are some 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.199 people that are too stupid to lie. And like I 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.240 would have legal people come to me and say, well, 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.400 why do you think they're telling the truth. I don't 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.160 think this person is capable of telling a lie. Sit down, 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:50.120 have a chat and you'll. 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.600 Understand and continuing the lie, you know, and getting away 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.800 with it. You can tell stupid lies, but you'll get strung. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.040 You've got to have a certain degree of intelligence to 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.080 carry the life through, would make it consistent with everything. 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.679 Else and consistently keep backing. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.640 Anyway, this jury came back in seventeen minutes and acquitted 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:12.800 her in seventeen minutes. I timed it high five. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:16.720 And she gave me a necklace which I've still got, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.560 made out of a crystal that she mined and arrol 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:22.959 dieted into it into something. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.679 Yeah, are you wearing it? No? 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.840 But I do still have no treasure. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:33.920 Okay, look, things like that. That makes a battler for 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.360 a whole range of reasons. But little things like that 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.800 make a difference. And you could have potentially missed that 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:43.920 and lost that. So that must give you some sort 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.200 of feeling of you doing doing good work. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.520 Well, I was really pleased, but you know, most of 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.880 me was going, Thank Heavens. I noticed it before the trial, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.000 because you know, I've beat myself up about the things 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.000 that I mess up, because honestly, she wasn't guilty. She 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:04.520 absolutely he wasn't guilty, and she should have been acquitted, 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.120 and I'm glad the jury did it so quickly. But 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.240 it was almost an accident, and I don't like that. 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:11.959 I don't like accidents. 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.439 I don't like it coming coming down to the life. Yeah, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.560 I want you to take me into the jury room now, 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.600 and let's I think we touched on it in part 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.280 one that generally jurors in this country are not allowed 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.920 to speak about what goes on in the jury room. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.760 So it's a big mystery. The jurors are shielded from 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.840 everyone involved in the trial, and they're boarding down the 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.080 back alleys and they're not allowed to talk to anyone. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.840 So it's very rare that people working in this field 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.600 get an opportunity to talk to juris. How did you 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:44.840 come to get that opportunity? 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:50.120 Again, accident? There seemed to be a lot of accidents 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:55.560 happened in my life. I was doing a postgraduate degree 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.400 in forensic science, as you do when you've got nothing 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.640 better to do with your life, or you know, have 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.640 so much free time, and I was invited to do 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:06.400 a PhD. 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.720 And it's the kids can look after themselves, don't worry 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:10.080 about that. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.679 I'm fond of saying that mine thrived on neglect. And 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.000 again it's sort of fairly sixth sense of humor. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.880 There you're topping them up for the life that. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:22.800 Not one of my children has a criminal record. So 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.120 I call that a success. 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.800 Or. You are a very very good barrasser. 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.120 No, I call that an absolutely Anything better than that 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:38.360 is a real win. But no criminal records anyhow, accident 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.240 was what happened. You've got to do a PhD. And 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.640 when I did my postgraduate work in forensic science, here 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:46.760 was no such thing as forensic science for lawyers. I 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:51.880 had to do a proper postgraduate science course. And honestly, yes, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.680 I had a science agree, but mine was biological sciences, 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.480 and you know, I was having to learn forensic chemistry, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.600 chemistry I didn't do. Last time I did chemistry was 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.840 at school and I wasn't very good at it. And 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.600 that was yeah, yeah, So what am I going to 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.680 do with PhD? And in forensic science? What on earth 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.800 can I do? I don't actually know enough science. So 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.480 jack of all trades, master of none was me. I know, 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:21.520 I'm going to do expert evidence because that sort of 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.520 straddles the worlds of law and crime. And I thought, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.200 I'm going to see whether I can talk to juris 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.680 because we always wonder you were saying earlier in part one, 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.600 you know, these juris sitting there, have the lawyers and 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.800 the experts lost them? The lawyers and experts having their 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.400 own learned conversation, the jurist sitting there going what happened? 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:37.000 What's going on? 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:37.360 You know? 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.600 Have they forgotten about us? Because the juris just happened 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.400 to be the most important people in the court room, 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.880 and they get forgotten about. So I thought, I want 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.960 to know what works. I want to know what type 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.960 of communication works. How do they wrap their heads around it. 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.280 Do they go out and do their own investigation, their 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.720 own research, and we know that that's a complete no. No. 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:03.600 You mustn't go out and do your own research and 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.240 bring it back to the jury room. More that if 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.600 you get found out, the trial will be aborted because 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.040 you're supposed to only rely on what's presented in court. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:14.160 So I'm curious about how they handle expert evidence and 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.720 the only way to do that because it is against 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:21.640 the law to talk to juris after trials except with 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.240 the permission of the Attorney General. So I went off 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.400 to the Attorney General of the day and said I'd 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.520 like to talk to juris and I'd like to find 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.640 out about this, and he was very receptive and gave 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.320 me that permission and it became a very very big study. 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.920 In fact, I think it's the biggest study that's ever 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:45.280 been done, certainly in Australia, UK, Canada, all the law 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.760 systems that are very similar where you're not allowed to 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.680 for example, you don't have the juris being interviewed on 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.080 the court steps like they do in the US. And 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.600 I had a lot of support to the law. Society 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:02.840 was in support. The police actually gave some funding towards it. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:08.080 Legal Aid gave some funding, The Department of Justice funded 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.080 the Sheriff's office cooperated with me and sent out three 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:17.680 thousand questionnaires and yeah, and that way, you see, the 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.000 juris could remain anonymous unless they opted into the study. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.399 So they just they sent them out. I didn't know 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:25.800 who they were sending them out to except it was random. 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.000 And then juriors opted in. And the amazing thing is 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.280 it was a twenty four page questionnaire, not just tick 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.520 a box. It was, you know, write down what happened 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.520 here and what happened there, and you know, approximately a 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.040 third of the juris actually completed that form and sent 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.479 it back, which is an amazing response rate for a 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:51.480 complicated form. And of those until the funding ran out, 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.359 we interviewed something like five hundred of them and. 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.440 So wow, that's a big cross that's. 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.800 Huge, it's huge. In the process of that, obviously I 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:06.080 learned a lot about what goes on behind closed doors. 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.679 Take us there where you can, what goes on behind 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:10.399 the juris okay. 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.879 Well, one of the things that came up because it 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:19.359 became not just expert evans, became a whole jury experience study. 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.639 It grew and grew and grew. One of the things 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.239 that I learned was, you know, people say, oh, you know, 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.800 the jurors would have acquitted this person because he's evil 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.800 and they're scared, and you know, it wasn't because there 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.760 wasn't enough evidence. It's because they were scared of this 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:42.560 bad dude. It was almost was in fact always, I 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.840 didn't find one instance where a juror said, and they 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.239 I do believe they're being honest with me. They had 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.359 to opt in for starters where a juror said it 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.080 was because I was scared of this bad dude, That's 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.159 why I quitted him. No, it was because there were 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.760 significant gaps of the prosecution case, and the prosecution was 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.920 really lying on the fact that he's a bad dude 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.720 to get a conviction, and the jurists took their oath 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.679 seriously and would only convict if there was in fact 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.280 enough evidence. Now that's a jury doing their job and 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:18.560 doing it properly. It's sort of, you know, on a 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.040 different topic which I'm sure probably end up touching on it. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.280 It's sort of why I can sleep at night believing 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.560 that my client was a bad dude but he got 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.879 acquitted because, as I said at the start of the thing, 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.240 part of my job then was to keep the barsards honest. 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.600 I did come across quite a lot of examples where 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.320 the jurors actually went out and did their own investigations, 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.119 which they're totally not allowed to do, and that was 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.399 usually because they had questions that they wanted answered and 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.800 neither side had given them the answer. Because, of course, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.280 a trial is about who presents what evidence on the day, 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.119 and there might be good reasons why certain evidence is 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.960 not being presented. For example, if someone has a really 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:03.359 bad criminal record in things that are not logically to 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.639 do with whatever they're accused of. This time. Often the 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.040 jury won't be told about that because the theory being 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.440 that they'll be influenced by that and convict him without 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.720 the proper evidence. I actually don't believe that will happen. 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.000 I do believe jurors do a really good job. I've 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:25.080 learned generally. You know, you've got the occasional rogue jury, 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.680 but again that's another story. But they have gone out 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.679 and for example, gone to the scene of a chase 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:41.760 or an you know, a traffic accident, or even a 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.440 nightclub where something's supposed to have happened, and they will 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.320 report back and tell the other jurors what they did, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:52.240 or had them conduct experiments where they've thrown things out 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.040 of the window of a moving car to see how 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.000 far away they land. Now, maybe we should have had 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.680 something give that evidence so they're not tempted to do that. 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.119 And no, I couldn't and didn't and wouldn't report that 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.280 because everything they told me was confidential. And you can 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.960 see I'm being very very careful not to give any 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.480 identifying information about the particular trial. 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.800 You talked about the past criminal history, and the jury 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.120 not being given that because that might influence their decision. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.560 Us An example someone's been committed of an assault years 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.560 ago and then being charged with drug related matters or 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.800 whatever it could be. That is that going to influence 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.560 the jury. I'm a big believer and we had this 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.000 chat off Mike the other day that all the information 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.399 that's kept from the jury, we put our faith in 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.720 being judged by our twelve peers or whatever, and that's 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.800 the basis of the jury system. I have concerns that 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:52.359 not enough information is put to the jury and we 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.119 don't put enough faith in the role of the jury 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.080 to make informed decisions, like they're told not to. The 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.520 only thing that they need to take into account in 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.480 deciding guilt or innocence here is the information that's been 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:08.440 presented to the court. They still get instructed not to Yeah. 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.240