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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with former criminal barrister

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Speaker 1: Due for Them, Judith continued to entertain me with stories

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Speaker 1: from the bar table. Judith also took us inside the

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Speaker 1: jury room, and some of the things you said might

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Speaker 1: make your question whether the jury system has had its

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Speaker 1: We also found out how Judith defended a client accused

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Speaker 1: of stabbing the person, a case that she thought was

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Speaker 1: impossible to win, And we had discussion about forensic science

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Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. This was a really unfiltered

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Speaker 1: look at the justice system. I think you're going to

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Speaker 1: enjoy it as much as I did. Judith for them.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me back. After the first first part.

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Speaker 1: We considered that we had a discussion off Mike and

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Speaker 1: we said no, we'll let you back for the second part.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you about you winning the unwinnable case,

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Speaker 1: and the way you described it to me was you're

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Speaker 1: perfect that you're representing a client that had gone into

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Speaker 1: a room and got into a fight with the person

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Speaker 1: in the room. The person hadn't been stabbed when your

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Speaker 1: client walked in the room, and when your client walked out,

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Speaker 1: the person had been stabbed in the back, in the back.

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Speaker 2: Take it take and you can't stab yourself back by

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Speaker 2: the way, I have one trials where we ran the defense.

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Speaker 2: He cut his own throat and that's been successful. But

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Speaker 2: you can't do his stab himself in the back. It's

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Speaker 2: just not going to work. This is a client who

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Speaker 2: came in to see me late in the day, and

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Speaker 2: she won't mind if she's still around, she won't mind

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Speaker 2: being identified. I know, because this may identify to someone

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Speaker 2: who actually knows her, but she won't have a problem

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Speaker 2: with it. She came in and she walked into my office,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sorry, but she wasn't very well dressed. There's

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Speaker 2: a reason that I say that she's looking pretty daggy.

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Speaker 2: And she'd been a gem FOSSi or opal prospector in

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Speaker 2: an outback town where they have gems and opals there,

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Speaker 2: trying not to identify things. But she was a transsexual.

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Speaker 2: And sadly, because many trans sexual clients I've had have

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Speaker 2: got wonderful dress sense, she was standing behind the door

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Speaker 2: when dress sense was being handed out, as my mother

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Speaker 2: would have said. And so she came in looking pretty daggy,

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Speaker 2: with terrible taste in makeup and clothes and everything. But

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Speaker 2: she was very upset, and she came in and she said,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to go to a men's prison. I said, well,

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Speaker 2: how about stop a minute. How about you tell me

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Speaker 2: what you're supposed to have done or what you haven't done.

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Speaker 2: Is how I often opened an interview with a client.

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Speaker 2: Tell me what you haven't done, tell me what they

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Speaker 2: reckon you've done. So I just don't want to go

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Speaker 2: to a men's prison. When I get convicted. I said, well,

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Speaker 2: let's just see if you're going to get convicted first.

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Speaker 2: And as time went on, I was starting to agree

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Speaker 2: that she would get convicted because what had happened the

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Speaker 2: background of the story was that she'd collected a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of gems in her prospecting days. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: she had to be pretty tough, because if you're going

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Speaker 2: to be in an back town like that as a prospector,

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty rough and tough, blokey sort of a world.

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Speaker 2: So she was pretty handy with a fist, had to be.

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Speaker 2: And she was big too, she was probably six foot

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Speaker 2: three and quite solidly built. Now she'd got all these

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Speaker 2: gems and she'd come to Perth to and she'd made

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Speaker 2: these dreadful souvenirs. I'm sorry, if you're listening, I'm sorry

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Speaker 2: I called your souvenirs dreadful, but they were. She'd made

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Speaker 2: these Jarrah maps of Australia, varnished them. And what you

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Speaker 2: do is you Arrol died on a precious stone where

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Speaker 2: each state capital is in the leaf TASMANI you're off

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Speaker 2: because that's just too darn hard. You can't do that,

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Speaker 2: and you flog them as souvenirs and you make money.

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Speaker 2: And she was going to make money for her gender

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Speaker 2: reassignment surgery. You can't. It's not sex change. It's a

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Speaker 2: gender reassignment because you're being assigned the gender that you've

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Speaker 2: always felt you were. Okay, And she went to a

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Speaker 2: fairly cheap boarding house in Perth with all her Jerrem

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Speaker 2: maps of Australia, and she met this young man who

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Speaker 2: was quite personable, and he said, I'll sell them for you.

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Speaker 2: You know, I reckon, I get about thirty five thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars worth of this lot or whatever the amount was.

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Speaker 2: And great, she is impressed by him. Okay, you take

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Speaker 2: them and you sell them. And he came back later on.

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Speaker 2: I think he only had about fifteen hundred dollars and

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Speaker 2: all the maps are gone, and it's like, where's me money?

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Speaker 2: Her money was probably up his arm. I suspect, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was in the days of Heroin. I to remember

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Speaker 2: where he would have injected and bought injected himself and

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Speaker 2: blown a lot of the money and brought back what

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Speaker 2: was left. And she was pretty angry, and they had

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Speaker 2: they had a real, really intense argument about this in

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Speaker 2: the sort of lounge area of this boarding house, and

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Speaker 2: it evolved into a fistfight. And as I said, my

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Speaker 2: client was, you know, really could handle herself in that situation.

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Speaker 2: She wasn't charged with thumping him, though, she charged with

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Speaker 2: stabbing him because although there were only two people in

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Speaker 2: the room, him and her, and he didn't have a

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Speaker 2: stab wound when he entered the room, and he did

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Speaker 2: at the end of the altercation, and no one else

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Speaker 2: had come in. I asked her all of this, did

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Speaker 2: anyone come in?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Did he have a stab wound when he came into

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Speaker 2: the room. No, did he have one at the end? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Did you stab him?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: I'm going I actually went read my lips. I cannot

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Speaker 2: win this trial. You are going to have to plead guilty.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she's sort of an answer to how do

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Speaker 2: you defend someone you know they're guilty. I tell them

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Speaker 2: to plead guilty. I tell them they're insane. If they don't,

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Speaker 2: I don't care. I didn't do it. How do you

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Speaker 2: get the stab wound? I don't know. Oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: read my lips again. I still didn't know how I

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Speaker 2: was going to win the trial, but she insisted on

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Speaker 2: going to trial. In fact, her main question was what

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Speaker 2: do I wear? She said, well, I come secretary, Will

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Speaker 2: I come astronaut? And I said, well, come secretary. That

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Speaker 2: was a mistake. I should have said astronaut, because yeah,

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Speaker 2: she I seem to remember she was wearing blue sparkles

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Speaker 2: and white gloves. I could be wrong, but astronaut would

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Speaker 2: have been worse, I guess, because it would have been

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Speaker 2: a silver lama.

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Speaker 1: But anyhow would have made a statement.

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Speaker 2: So I'm at the beginning of the trial and how

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Speaker 2: am I going to defend her? And I'm looking at

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Speaker 2: the crime scene photos again, just as you do, going

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Speaker 2: through everything you've got. And it dawned on me, dawned

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Speaker 2: on me, and thank Heaven's it dawned on me before

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Speaker 2: the trial and not after, because I could never forgiven myself.

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Speaker 2: There were some stairs leading from this room, and no,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't that. Somebody came down the stairs with stairs

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Speaker 2: leading from this room upstairs to the kitchen, and I

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Speaker 2: said to her, I said, where did the stairs go

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Speaker 2: out of the kitchen. There was a plastic bag on

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Speaker 2: the stairs, just like a Wooly's bag or a coal's bag,

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Speaker 2: something like that. And the bag looked like it had

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Speaker 2: been damnag. I had, you know, had they made of

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Speaker 2: not great plastic? And I had like a split in

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Speaker 2: the bag. I said, whose bags? That shit, that's mine?

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Speaker 2: I said, well, what was in it? She said it

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Speaker 2: was me dinner. I was going to go upstairs the

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Speaker 2: kitchen cook me dinner. I said, so what was in it?

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Speaker 2: She oh, you know, me bread and you know, butter

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Speaker 2: or margarine or whatever, and misteak and me fork and

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Speaker 2: me knife knife, and there's a split in the bag.

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Speaker 2: I worked out what had happened. They'd had a punch up.

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Speaker 2: He'd fallen back on the stairs. The knife was in

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Speaker 2: the bag at such an angle that he actually fell

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Speaker 2: on the knife. The defense was he fell on the knife.

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Speaker 2: Luckily he only had one stab wound, because you're not

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Speaker 2: going to be able to run. He fell on the knife,

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Speaker 2: got up, ran backwards and fell on the knife four

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Speaker 2: more times.

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Speaker 1: But well, that would have been a hard one to acplain.

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Speaker 1: So how did that play out at the trial? Did

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Speaker 1: the trial commence?

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Speaker 2: The trial commenced, and she gave her evidence, and we

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Speaker 2: explained to the jury why she looked the way she did,

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Speaker 2: because they would have been wondering. And she gave not

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Speaker 2: the explanation weed rehearsed, but another explanation I said to

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Speaker 2: her because we had to explain what the money was

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Speaker 2: for and why she was so upset, you see, So

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Speaker 2: it was actually an essentral part of the background. So

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Speaker 2: I said, you know, what was the money for? Why

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Speaker 2: were you so angry? Because she admitted hitting him? You know,

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Speaker 2: she wasn't charged with hitting and she was charged with

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Speaker 2: something called unlawful wounding. I probably should have said that

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Speaker 2: which involves stabbing, so she wasn't charged with punching him.

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Speaker 2: So why were you so angry? He stole me money?

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Speaker 2: And what was your money for? It was for me

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Speaker 2: my operation, and what was your operation for? It was

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Speaker 2: for me, you know, gender reassignment surgery, and what was

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Speaker 2: that for? And she was supposed to say, was to

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Speaker 2: make me look more feminine? In fact, she was supposed

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Speaker 2: to I was going to ask a leading question. I

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Speaker 2: was going to say, was it to make you look

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Speaker 2: more feminine? Which is technically a leading question, But no

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Speaker 2: one was going to object, So I knew I could

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Speaker 2: get away by asking it was it to make you

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Speaker 2: look more feminine? But she forgot what she was supposed

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Speaker 2: to say, So I said, was it to make you

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Speaker 2: look more feminine. She said, Nah, it's just going to

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Speaker 2: cut me dick and me balls off. Nothing's going to

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Speaker 2: make me look more feminine. And I went, oh, you

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Speaker 2: could have heard a pin drop. The judge glared at me,

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Speaker 2: like this is all my fault instructing say that I

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Speaker 2: hadn't at all.

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Speaker 1: She was supposed to say no, but you instructed her

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Speaker 1: to say what was appropriate or the one but you can't. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It makes for court It makes for court room drama. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: things like I reckon.

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Speaker 2: My little theory is that the jury thought no one

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Speaker 2: could give an answer like that not be telling the truth.

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Speaker 2: I reckon it.

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Speaker 1: Probably I've seen witnesses that come in there and or

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Speaker 1: people involved in trials that they're too stupid to lie,

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Speaker 1: like in the way that they're giving evidence. And that's

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Speaker 1: sounding like I think I'm smart, but there are some

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Speaker 1: people that are too stupid to lie. And like I

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Speaker 1: would have legal people come to me and say, well,

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Speaker 1: why do you think they're telling the truth. I don't

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Speaker 1: think this person is capable of telling a lie. Sit down,

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Speaker 1: have a chat and you'll.

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Speaker 2: Understand and continuing the lie, you know, and getting away

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Speaker 2: with it. You can tell stupid lies, but you'll get strung.

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Speaker 2: You've got to have a certain degree of intelligence to

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Speaker 2: carry the life through, would make it consistent with everything.

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Speaker 1: Else and consistently keep backing.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, this jury came back in seventeen minutes and acquitted

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Speaker 2: her in seventeen minutes. I timed it high five. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And she gave me a necklace which I've still got,

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Speaker 2: made out of a crystal that she mined and arrol

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Speaker 2: dieted into it into something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, are you wearing it? No?

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Speaker 2: But I do still have no treasure.

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Speaker 1: Okay, look, things like that. That makes a battler for

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Speaker 1: a whole range of reasons. But little things like that

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Speaker 1: make a difference. And you could have potentially missed that

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Speaker 1: and lost that. So that must give you some sort

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Speaker 1: of feeling of you doing doing good work.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was really pleased, but you know, most of

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Speaker 2: me was going, Thank Heavens. I noticed it before the trial,

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Speaker 2: because you know, I've beat myself up about the things

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Speaker 2: that I mess up, because honestly, she wasn't guilty. She

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Speaker 2: absolutely he wasn't guilty, and she should have been acquitted,

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Speaker 2: and I'm glad the jury did it so quickly. But

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Speaker 2: it was almost an accident, and I don't like that.

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Speaker 2: I don't like accidents.

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Speaker 1: I don't like it coming coming down to the life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take me into the jury room now,

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Speaker 1: and let's I think we touched on it in part

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Speaker 1: one that generally jurors in this country are not allowed

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Speaker 1: to speak about what goes on in the jury room.

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Speaker 1: So it's a big mystery. The jurors are shielded from

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Speaker 1: everyone involved in the trial, and they're boarding down the

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Speaker 1: back alleys and they're not allowed to talk to anyone.

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Speaker 1: So it's very rare that people working in this field

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Speaker 1: get an opportunity to talk to juris. How did you

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Speaker 1: come to get that opportunity?

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Speaker 2: Again, accident? There seemed to be a lot of accidents

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Speaker 2: happened in my life. I was doing a postgraduate degree

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Speaker 2: in forensic science, as you do when you've got nothing

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Speaker 2: better to do with your life, or you know, have

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Speaker 2: so much free time, and I was invited to do

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Speaker 2: a PhD.

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Speaker 1: And it's the kids can look after themselves, don't worry

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 2: I'm fond of saying that mine thrived on neglect. And

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Speaker 2: again it's sort of fairly sixth sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: There you're topping them up for the life that.

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Speaker 2: Not one of my children has a criminal record. So

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Speaker 2: I call that a success.

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Speaker 1: Or. You are a very very good barrasser.

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Speaker 2: No, I call that an absolutely Anything better than that

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Speaker 2: is a real win. But no criminal records anyhow, accident

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Speaker 2: was what happened. You've got to do a PhD. And

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Speaker 2: when I did my postgraduate work in forensic science, here

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Speaker 2: was no such thing as forensic science for lawyers. I

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Speaker 2: had to do a proper postgraduate science course. And honestly, yes,

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Speaker 2: I had a science agree, but mine was biological sciences,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I was having to learn forensic chemistry,

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Speaker 2: chemistry I didn't do. Last time I did chemistry was

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Speaker 2: at school and I wasn't very good at it. And

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Speaker 2: that was yeah, yeah, So what am I going to

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Speaker 2: do with PhD? And in forensic science? What on earth

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Speaker 2: can I do? I don't actually know enough science. So

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Speaker 2: jack of all trades, master of none was me. I know,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do expert evidence because that sort of

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Speaker 2: straddles the worlds of law and crime. And I thought,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to see whether I can talk to juris

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Speaker 2: because we always wonder you were saying earlier in part one,

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Speaker 2: you know, these juris sitting there, have the lawyers and

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Speaker 2: the experts lost them? The lawyers and experts having their

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Speaker 2: own learned conversation, the jurist sitting there going what happened?

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Speaker 2: What's going on?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: Have they forgotten about us? Because the juris just happened

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Speaker 2: to be the most important people in the court room,

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Speaker 2: and they get forgotten about. So I thought, I want

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Speaker 2: to know what works. I want to know what type

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Speaker 2: of communication works. How do they wrap their heads around it.

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Speaker 2: Do they go out and do their own investigation, their

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Speaker 2: own research, and we know that that's a complete no. No.

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Speaker 2: You mustn't go out and do your own research and

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Speaker 2: bring it back to the jury room. More that if

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Speaker 2: you get found out, the trial will be aborted because

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Speaker 2: you're supposed to only rely on what's presented in court.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious about how they handle expert evidence and

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Speaker 2: the only way to do that because it is against

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Speaker 2: the law to talk to juris after trials except with

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Speaker 2: the permission of the Attorney General. So I went off

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Speaker 2: to the Attorney General of the day and said I'd

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Speaker 2: like to talk to juris and I'd like to find

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Speaker 2: out about this, and he was very receptive and gave

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Speaker 2: me that permission and it became a very very big study.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think it's the biggest study that's ever

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Speaker 2: been done, certainly in Australia, UK, Canada, all the law

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Speaker 2: systems that are very similar where you're not allowed to

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Speaker 2: for example, you don't have the juris being interviewed on

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Speaker 2: the court steps like they do in the US. And

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of support to the law. Society

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Speaker 2: was in support. The police actually gave some funding towards it.

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Speaker 2: Legal Aid gave some funding, The Department of Justice funded

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Speaker 2: the Sheriff's office cooperated with me and sent out three

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Speaker 2: thousand questionnaires and yeah, and that way, you see, the

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Speaker 2: juris could remain anonymous unless they opted into the study.

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Speaker 2: So they just they sent them out. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: who they were sending them out to except it was random.

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Speaker 2: And then juriors opted in. And the amazing thing is

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Speaker 2: it was a twenty four page questionnaire, not just tick

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Speaker 2: a box. It was, you know, write down what happened

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Speaker 2: here and what happened there, and you know, approximately a

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Speaker 2: third of the juris actually completed that form and sent

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Speaker 2: it back, which is an amazing response rate for a

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Speaker 2: complicated form. And of those until the funding ran out,

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Speaker 2: we interviewed something like five hundred of them and.

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Speaker 1: So wow, that's a big cross that's.

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Speaker 2: Huge, it's huge. In the process of that, obviously I

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Speaker 2: learned a lot about what goes on behind closed doors.

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Speaker 1: Take us there where you can, what goes on behind

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Speaker 1: the juris okay.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that came up because it

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Speaker 2: became not just expert evans, became a whole jury experience study.

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Speaker 2: It grew and grew and grew. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that I learned was, you know, people say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: the jurors would have acquitted this person because he's evil

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Speaker 2: and they're scared, and you know, it wasn't because there

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Speaker 2: wasn't enough evidence. It's because they were scared of this

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Speaker 2: bad dude. It was almost was in fact always, I

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Speaker 2: didn't find one instance where a juror said, and they

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Speaker 2: I do believe they're being honest with me. They had

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Speaker 2: to opt in for starters where a juror said it

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Speaker 2: was because I was scared of this bad dude, That's

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Speaker 2: why I quitted him. No, it was because there were

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Speaker 2: significant gaps of the prosecution case, and the prosecution was

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Speaker 2: really lying on the fact that he's a bad dude

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Speaker 2: to get a conviction, and the jurists took their oath

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Speaker 2: seriously and would only convict if there was in fact

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Speaker 2: enough evidence. Now that's a jury doing their job and

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Speaker 2: doing it properly. It's sort of, you know, on a

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Speaker 2: different topic which I'm sure probably end up touching on it.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of why I can sleep at night believing

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Speaker 2: that my client was a bad dude but he got

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Speaker 2: acquitted because, as I said at the start of the thing,

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Speaker 2: part of my job then was to keep the barsards honest.

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Speaker 2: I did come across quite a lot of examples where

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Speaker 2: the jurors actually went out and did their own investigations,

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Speaker 2: which they're totally not allowed to do, and that was

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Speaker 2: usually because they had questions that they wanted answered and

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Speaker 2: neither side had given them the answer. Because, of course,

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Speaker 2: a trial is about who presents what evidence on the day,

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Speaker 2: and there might be good reasons why certain evidence is

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00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 2: not being presented. For example, if someone has a really

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00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 2: bad criminal record in things that are not logically to

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Speaker 2: do with whatever they're accused of. This time. Often the

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00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 2: jury won't be told about that because the theory being

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Speaker 2: that they'll be influenced by that and convict him without

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Speaker 2: the proper evidence. I actually don't believe that will happen.

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Speaker 2: I do believe jurors do a really good job. I've

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Speaker 2: learned generally. You know, you've got the occasional rogue jury,

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Speaker 2: but again that's another story. But they have gone out

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Speaker 2: and for example, gone to the scene of a chase

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Speaker 2: or an you know, a traffic accident, or even a

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Speaker 2: nightclub where something's supposed to have happened, and they will

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Speaker 2: report back and tell the other jurors what they did,

377
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: or had them conduct experiments where they've thrown things out

378
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 2: of the window of a moving car to see how

379
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Speaker 2: far away they land. Now, maybe we should have had

380
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 2: something give that evidence so they're not tempted to do that.

381
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Speaker 2: And no, I couldn't and didn't and wouldn't report that

382
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Speaker 2: because everything they told me was confidential. And you can

383
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 2: see I'm being very very careful not to give any

384
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Speaker 2: identifying information about the particular trial.

385
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Speaker 1: You talked about the past criminal history, and the jury

386
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: not being given that because that might influence their decision.

387
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Speaker 1: Us An example someone's been committed of an assault years

388
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Speaker 1: ago and then being charged with drug related matters or

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Speaker 1: whatever it could be. That is that going to influence

390
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Speaker 1: the jury. I'm a big believer and we had this

391
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: chat off Mike the other day that all the information

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Speaker 1: that's kept from the jury, we put our faith in

393
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Speaker 1: being judged by our twelve peers or whatever, and that's

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Speaker 1: the basis of the jury system. I have concerns that

395
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: not enough information is put to the jury and we

396
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: don't put enough faith in the role of the jury

397
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 1: to make informed decisions, like they're told not to. The

398
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: only thing that they need to take into account in

399
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: deciding guilt or innocence here is the information that's been

400
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 1: presented to the court. They still get instructed not to Yeah.

401
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: It used to don't watch the news tonight if it

402
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: was a high profile case, don't read the papers, And

403
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: they go, yeah, as if they're not watching the news

404
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: or reading the papers about it. And now they're instructed

405
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 1: not to look examine this on social media and different things,

406
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 1: as if they're not not doing it. I think we've

407
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: got to say there'll be reports in the media, don't

408
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: put any weight on that. That's unsubstantiated information. What you

409
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: need to do is concentrate on what we're presenting to

410
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: you at court. We need to make the instructions more

411
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Speaker 1: respectful to the role that the jury have.

412
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Speaker 2: Well, if we're going to have a system that completely

413
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Speaker 2: relies upon them, then we've got to have some trust

414
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 2: in them. And as I said, most of my research

415
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: uncovered the fact that they can generally be trusted and

416
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: they will have argus in the jury room. No, you're

417
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: not allowed to think about xyzz that you've learned, and

418
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,120
Speaker 2: you know what the media reports will be sensationalists might

419
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: not necessarily be correct, and you know, we have to

420
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: only take into account what's said in the jury room.

421
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: And remember I said in part one about this jury

422
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: forty years ago, who said, we understand that there might

423
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 2: be some new workout on what causes ulcers, but we

424
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 2: weren't told about We wish we had been. Now that

425
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 2: we were forced to convict, even though we didn't feel

426
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: happy about doing it. So they will do as there

427
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: are generally. But that leads me to another thing I learned,

428
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Speaker 2: and that is that there are really two types of juries.

429
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Speaker 2: There are evidence led juries and verdict led juries and

430
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 2: the evidence led ones are the ones that produced the

431
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: most satisfactory verdict. By satisfactory, I mean they've actually considered

432
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 2: the evidence and come to a conclusion because the evidence

433
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 2: takes them there. I'll just explain that a bit. You

434
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: get the sort that will go into the jury room.

435
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: Someone has volunteered to be the four person for per offspring,

436
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: for you know, in charge, or the communicator of the

437
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: jury to the court, because that's really all they should

438
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: be doing, and it will often be the person who

439
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: really is they've seen on television. They just really want

440
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: to be the important and they've got fixed views about

441
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 2: what happened, and they're going to get this jury to

442
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: do what they want. That's why I think four persons

443
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: should not be chosen until a couple of days into

444
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 2: the trial, and some judges do that. Now, some judges

445
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: I think, have that point of view.

446
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: Just a subtle change, but I think that's a worth

447
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: wayle change because you could imagine the twelve people sitting

448
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: down there and whoever thinks I'm smarter or quicker, bigger,

449
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to take control of this. And then you

450
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: get that bully type or domineering type that will influence

451
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: the other people. So okay, sorry I interrupted the judges

452
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: and now I wake wake up to that that. Let's

453
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: you don't need to pick it straight away. Just feel

454
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 1: the dynamics of the group, dynamics of the room, and

455
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: then work out who you think is best suited the Yeah.

456
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: Particularly the longer trial. You've got the luxury to be

457
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: able to do that. And I think it's a good

458
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: idea as well. But a verdict driven jury not let

459
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 2: verdict driven jury will be one where you know, the

460
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: four person says right, Let's take a pher thinks he's guilty,

461
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: who thinks he's not? All right? You know three of

462
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: you think he's not, nine of us think he is.

463
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: How can we pummel you through into submission? How can

464
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: we make you see our point of view? What's your problem?

465
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 2: And that sort of thing will happen. And I've heard

466
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: tales of jurors lying on the floor crying because of

467
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: the amount of bullying. Now that you have to say,

468
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: if there's a verdict of guilty after that sort of treatment,

469
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 2: that's not satisfactory. And no, I measured it by asking

470
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: jurors whether there was anything that happened that influence devote

471
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 2: a certain way, which they later regretted in the cold

472
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 2: light of day if you like. Now that's your verdict driven,

473
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 2: and that has to be in anyone's book, unsatisfactory and

474
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: not necessarily going to do justice. Then you've got your

475
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: evidence led where people say, right, okay, we've been told

476
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: what pieces the prosecution has to prove, what the elements

477
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: of the offense are, what things they have to prove.

478
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: Let's look at each one, what evidence we've got that

479
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 2: relates to that pro and con you know, what did

480
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: this witness say? What did that witness say? And go

481
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 2: through it carefully and thoroughly, and they find sometimes even

482
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: though for example, their sympathies might have been with the

483
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: victim or their sympathies might have been with the accused,

484
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 2: the verdict the evidence takes them to a particular conclusion

485
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: that's got to be far more satisfactory. So one of

486
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: my recommendations, if I hadn't had publication stopped by a

487
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: change of government, one of my recommendations was going to

488
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: be that there ought to be a facilitator in the

489
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: jury room, someone who's just experienced at holding meetings, if

490
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: you like, and getting people to some sort of agreement.

491
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: This is going to say shallow when I say this,

492
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: and I was thinking as you were talking describing it,

493
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to say facilitator, but I was thinking

494
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: that exact thing, that if you had someone there that

495
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: could just keep them all in line, and that have

496
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: to be the right person with the right personality, just

497
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: explaining what the role is there, because I could see

498
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: a group of twelve people going off in completely the

499
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: wrong direction. So what you're saying, facilitator, I think that

500
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: you're on the something there that would give me more

501
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: confidence that they're doing what they should be doing in

502
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: that room, because I think too much is ass of

503
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: jurists because I sit there on cases I might have

504
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: worked on for years and sit there and I'm getting

505
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: confused as the legal argument's going. I'm sitting there going

506
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: I'm getting lost on this, and I'm thinking these people

507
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,959
Speaker 1: have just come into it. I've lived and proved it

508
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: for months or years, understand and understand the broader picture.

509
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: So I've got a better starting point. You've got these

510
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: people that get this sanitized version of information. They're asked

511
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,239
Speaker 1: to leave the court. Why of why the is going on?

512
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: There's a legal argument in the absence of the jury

513
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: and they must be seeing there going what are they

514
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: talking about? Then coming back in and not being informed

515
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: of what was discussed other than a look at something

516
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: that wasn't relevant to your role here. We're sorry that

517
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: we're asking you to leave the court. But because you

518
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: now leave the court and they sit in the jury

519
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: room for three hours probably guessing what are they annassis?

520
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: I can telle you from my watch that they are

521
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: guessing that and their offender as well. Why are we

522
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: not trusted? Why do we you know, they think we're children,

523
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: They think we can't actually, you know, sort things out. Also,

524
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: it used to be not need more, Thank Heavens that

525
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: jurors are even told not to take notes. Now they

526
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: can take notes, and some judges will allow them to

527
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: have copies of the transcript, in other words, the typed

528
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: up version of what's said in court. Why should it

529
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: be a memory test? Why should the person who misremembers

530
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: something holds sway in the jury. Why should it be

531
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: just the person who took notes that you know, is

532
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: the one who has more influence because they've got notes.

533
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: They only took notes of what mattered to them. So

534
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: access to transcript and people say oh, they'll just get

535
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: bogged down or you know, well, how about putting a

536
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: bit of faith in them and if they want to

537
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: check something, rather than having to come back into court,

538
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: which is what often happens to have transcript read to them,

539
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: why shouldn't they have it searchable on a computer in

540
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: the jury room and look it up for themselves.

541
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's evolving and changing with the times,

542
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: and definitely it should be something because the jury system

543
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: is Yeah, the lineage goes back hundreds of years. The

544
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: world has changed, and it used to be we'll call

545
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: the jury from the village because you're going to be

546
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: judged by your peers. But it doesn't sort of really

547
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: sit that way anymore. There's a whole sections men.

548
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: In fact, only that women could be on juries.

549
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: When did they I didn't realize they let women in

550
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: the juries. When did that happen?

551
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: You're asleep? Gary?

552
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: All right, Well that's yeah. When did that come? When

553
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: did that come? When did it was it twelve men?

554
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: How long ago was that?

555
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: I don't actually know, to be honest, which is embarrassing,

556
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: but you know, back in the thirties, for example, it

557
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: was always just men. I don't know when it actually changed.

558
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: But don't forget that women couldn't vote at one point.

559
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: And we only get to know the person's occupation, and

560
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: you know very little other than that their occupation, the

561
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: suburb they live in, unless that's changed, and you know

562
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: very little else. And all you could do is to say, well,

563
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: I guess if you're defending a bank robber, you wouldn't

564
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: want a bank manager on the jury. And it used

565
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: to be you wouldn't put teachers on the jury because

566
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 2: the theory was they'd be too judgmental. One other thing

567
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: I've learned from my study is the more educated the person,

568
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: the more useful they are as a juror. And you know,

569
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: give me a teacher any day on a jury. Even

570
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: though the received wisdom was you don't put them on juries.

571
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: That's just probably due to people's bad experiences when they're

572
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: at primary school or something. I suspect I don't see

573
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: anything that's yeah. So you know, the more educated they are,

574
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: the more able they are to indulge in that intellectual

575
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: exercise of putting aside preconceived notions, of examining their thinking

576
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: and being critical of their own thinking. And I mean

577
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: critical in the good sense of the word.

578
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: Do you think it would get to get to the

579
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: stage where we're not having the jury trials, Like, I

580
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: know there's options there. You can have a judge alone trial.

581
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: Do you see evolving to the point where, look, this

582
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: is all getting too complicated, forensic evidence, scientific evidence, even

583
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: AI coming into play. Do you see the courts evolving?

584
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: Will they keep up with the times?

585
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: Look, I still think there's a strong ament in favor

586
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: of having the appears. That's another question. But having a

587
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: jury of twelve people who are not otherwise involved in

588
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: the criminal justice system to actually judge this, because in

589
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: the end, it's society that's punishing or acquitting somebody, and

590
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: they're representatives of society. I think we need to get

591
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: better about how we communicate information so that things don't

592
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: get too complicated and the forms we presented in Should

593
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: we be giving them visuals? Should we be giving them,

594
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: you know, a graph? Should we be giving them pictures?

595
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: Should we learn to communicate like I'm a great, wonderful scientist,

596
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: and I can talk fancy language and I can use

597
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: fancy terms and all my colleagues understand me. Or how

598
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: am I going to present this to a jury? How

599
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: am I going to explain this so they understand. And

600
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: I firmly believe you can. I believe people can be

601
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: trained not just to ask the right questions of them

602
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: if you're the lawyer end of it, but as the

603
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 2: expert to use the right language and to explain and

604
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: to have you know, the lawyers help them explain it.

605
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: So I think the answers in the training, and I

606
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: don't think just having a jury of say three accountants

607
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: in a you know, fraud case is the answer at all.

608
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: And with judges, I mean, you can't pick which judge

609
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: you get. Judges, I have to say the quality of

610
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: judges is improving a lot a huge life over my career.

611
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: But you know, back in the olden days, I would

612
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: be very nervous if I had a judge a line

613
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: trial which judge I would get, because some judges you

614
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 2: knew that they were going to convict.

615
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: Some judges they had strong leanings one way the other,

616
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: the type.

617
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 2: Of and so you'd only go for the ability of

618
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 2: judge A line trials a relatively recent innovation anyway, And

619
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: I did it in the baby shaking case because at

620
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: the time of the trial there was a lot of

621
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: there was actually a public information campaign about don't shake

622
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 2: your babies.

623
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: Which okay, so that that could have played.

624
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: That worried me, and I was glad that particular judge

625
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 2: that we got was a thoughtful, you know, very fair judge.

626
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: He may even recognize himself, but you know, I was

627
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: very glad about that. Whereas I remember one particular judge.

628
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: My client actually passed out in the dock because he

629
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: was so drunk. That's after they found him and got

630
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: him to court because he didn't turn up the first

631
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: day because he's on a bender and he passed out,

632
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: And I said, you're on you have to ask for

633
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: a gernks. My client's sort of unconscious, and the judge

634
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: ad miss ford them. He'll sober up and you can.

635
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 2: As the day goes on, he can tell him what

636
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: happened like that.

637
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: You're not shocking me. But yeah, different different, I said

638
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: to judge.

639
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: Look, I've never been asked to justify. Did I thought

640
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: there was some sort of rule that the accused had

641
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: to be conscious.

642
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: Well, anyway, I can imagine that, I can imagine that happened. There.

643
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: Would you then a huge question? You don't have to

644
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: dig into it too much. But we've got the adversarial system,

645
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 1: which is not actually a search for the truth, it's

646
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: proving the guilt or guilt or innocence. And then we've

647
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: got the inquisitorial system, which is a search for the

648
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: truth in basically finding out what happens. Some countries have

649
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: that system in place. Do you think it's a better system,

650
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: And it's a big question. I'd just be interested in

651
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: your thoughts.

652
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: We have that in the curenter's court, where the curenter

653
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: can actually direct investigations and it is a search for

654
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: the truth, and coroners especially trained to do that, and

655
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 2: I think certainly from in the investigation of deaths where

656
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: it's not an attempt to pin blame on someone or

657
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 2: certainly shouldn't be. But other countries, I mean, I've been

658
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: a member of the Law and Society Association where a

659
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: lot of some of the work they do is on

660
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: just the systems, and you compare systems in different countries.

661
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: So I'm actually in a position or I do have

662
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: some views about that. And one of the issues with

663
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: the inquisitorial system. And one inquisitor, if you like, one

664
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: inquisitorial literally means questioning. You have one person doing that

665
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: is that they can be liable and have been in

666
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: some countries to for example, bribery or option because it's

667
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 2: just one person. Also, some people are better at the

668
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: job than others, and some people are better. You know,

669
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: if you're acting as judge and jury, which is really

670
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 2: what it amounts to, you may have your preconceived ideas

671
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: and you may In some countries judges are elected as well,

672
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: and you want to be elected again next time round. Yeah,

673
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: so there are all sorts of ways that system can

674
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: go wrong as well, do we You know, I can't

675
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 2: tell you whether one systems better than the other. We

676
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: have what we have, and I take some comfort in

677
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: the fact that at least society is represented. Did the

678
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: judge who's doing the inquisition, who's doing the question, did

679
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: they go to an expensive private school and never see

680
00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: real life after they left their private school? Did they

681
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 2: live a sheltered life or were they beaten up by

682
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: their bully of a father, Or do they go to

683
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: and there have been cases of this, go to particular

684
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: sex clubs where they can be vulnerable to blackmail if

685
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: they don't come up with a certain verdict. Just because

686
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: you've got a trained judge doesn't mean you're safe. And

687
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: again I say the callity of judges today is so

688
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: much better than some.

689
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: Well, you brought up some very valid points there, because

690
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: I often erase this with you informed people, just to

691
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: try to get a sense of it. People that understand

692
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: the systems, I get frustrated with their theserial system because

693
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: quite often they don't think all the evidence is presented.

694
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: I'd like to see more evidence presented. What you touched on,

695
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: what you learned with your studies with the jury, they

696
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: seem to be Yeah, why don't they trust us? They're

697
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: putting us in such a powerful position, a position of responsibility,

698
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: but they were not clever enough to absorb all the evidence.

699
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe we've got the right system. It just

700
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: needs some improvements and adjustments. And I love the thought

701
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: of a facilitator in there keeping those juries on board.

702
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: Because you mentioned something the other day without referencing the trial,

703
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: but what the jury came out, because after all the

704
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: evidence has been presented, if people aren't aware of that,

705
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: then the juries are sent away to consider their verdict.

706
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: And what was that one? After three days they came out?

707
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: What was a question they asked?

708
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: A murder trial? And it was actually a trial I

709
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: was involved in as a lawyer. It wasn't one of

710
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: my study ones. And the jury deliberate for three days.

711
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 2: In fact, we're all just debating, do we give them

712
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: more time? Are we ever going to get a verdict?

713
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: You know? The lawyers and the judge were sort of

714
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: looking at that question. And the jury is allowed to

715
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 2: send questions out to the court, and often what happens always,

716
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: except for this occasion, the judge and lawyers will agree

717
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: as to what the answer should be to the jury

718
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: particular question. And this jury came out after three days

719
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 2: of deliberation said does the accused have to prove he

720
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 2: didn't do it? And the judge didn't even bother consulting it.

721
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 2: He just but we looked at each other in horror, thought,

722
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: what we've been going on about for all of us?

723
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: Prosecution will tell the jury because of the type of

724
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: you know, you have to prove this beyond reasonable doubt.

725
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: How can you if you're.

726
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: A they've miss missed the whole point of it. Purpose.

727
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: But I thought about it later and I thought, Nah,

728
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 2: what's probably happened? And I thought about this after I

729
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: did my research. What's probably happened is that there's some

730
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: one duror who's been a complete idiot, who won't shut up,

731
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 2: who will say, no, the accused god to prove he

732
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: didn't do it, and he didn't prove he didn't do it,

733
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: So I'm going to convict. Everyone else's saying no, no, no,

734
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: it's not how it works. And in then they probably said, look,

735
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 2: we'll settle it once and we'll go back to court.

736
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: And as a judge, I hope that's what happened.

737
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: How yeah, you would would like to think not the

738
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: twelve of them seeing their debating that the fact that

739
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: it's now in courts. It used to be unanimous decision,

740
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: like all twelve jurors, but now there's some leeway for

741
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: certain cases that it can be majority of a decision.

742
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: I thought that was good because you only needed to

743
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: have one drop kick on the jury, and it could

744
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: just for whatever reason, they might just be a painful person,

745
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: a disagreeable type person that's going to sit there and

746
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: argue too the cows come home, regardless of what facts

747
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: have been presented. I think that was a step in

748
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: the right direction.

749
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: It's not the case with homicides. It's still got to

750
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: be unanimous and that's because the stakes are so high,

751
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 2: and I think that's fair enough. But you can get

752
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: a verdict of eleven one or ten to two now

753
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: in many others. But this is another example of not

754
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: trusting the jury. The jury is told your verdict has

755
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: to be unanimous, and the lawyers and the judge of

756
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: all their fingers crossed behind their backs because I know

757
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 2: that if the jury is having trouble reaching verdict, they'll

758
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 2: have actually be told it can be ten two or

759
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: eleven one. Well, why not tell them that in the

760
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: first place. And then you get the juries where a

761
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: dura has been on a jury before and knows that,

762
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: and they'll tell the other jurors, look, we can actually

763
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: have a majority verdict. Well, why not tell them that

764
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: in the first place.

765
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, give them the information that makes sense, that does

766
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: make sense.

767
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: And then it's shot out it's a turkey, who's you know,

768
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: because the juries will say, we don't have taken any

769
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: notes of you anyway, because it's just one of you.

770
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the chances are getting twelve people selected randomly,

771
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: and you're not going to get a drop kick or

772
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: a turkey, as you say on that group, You're going

773
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: to be pretty lucky. You've got to be pretty lucky.

774
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 1: The studies that you've done is available to the public.

775
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: Has it come out in any form?

776
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: Yes and no. I've written several articles.

777
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: No, it's either a yes answer or no. It can't

778
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: be yes and no.

779
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: It can watch me.

780
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: Okay, I wish you taught me this trick when I

781
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 1: was in the world.

782
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 2: I have taught people that trick. I'll just digress and

783
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: say I teach people. What you say is you turn

784
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: to the If the lawyer's saying, I'm asking you the

785
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: questions yes or no, yes or no, give me yes

786
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: or no answer, what you do is you turn to

787
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: the judge and you say you're on. If I were

788
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: to give a yees or no answer, I would be

789
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 2: in danger of misleading the jury. And a jury goes

790
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: perfect and they'll never do that to you again.

791
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 1: So perfect, perfect.

792
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: So anyway, that was a digression. But now, what was

793
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: the question again, counsel. That's the other thing. Half the

794
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: time the lawyer's forgotten the question by then too.

795
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: It was about the papers from your study into the juris.

796
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: Of course, is viable to the.

797
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: Is some is And you know what I'm actually first

798
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 2: that you can just google and you find some of

799
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: the publications. Also, if anybody is actually keen to find

800
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 2: out about it, I'm actually perfect happy to be emailed

801
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: about it, and you will find my email address if

802
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 2: you just google me. So that's pretty easy. There's nothing

803
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: private about my life or anything.

804
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: Well, the fact that you've done the study like it

805
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: was something that needed to be done. There's so much

806
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: value in what was learnt from having access to people

807
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: that were not normally given access to For anyone to

808
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: do a study, it gives an understanding. So it makes sense.

809
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: By so many bodies were on board with it and

810
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: everybody wanted the results.

811
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: Just one question, is this just a myth or a

812
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: rumor that there was a jury personal and jury trying

813
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: to use a Ouiji board to speak to the deceased

814
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: in a trial that actually I saw that in.

815
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: Some that's real and did actually happen. And what happened

816
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: was the it was a murder trial. We seem to

817
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: be talking about murders a lot, which is good. It

818
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: was one of those circumstantial cases because one of the

819
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: things that murders is usually the main witness is dead.

820
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: In fact, invariably the main witness is dead, because that's

821
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: why it's.

822
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: A yeah, yeah, you usually need that pres but see.

823
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: Again, dark sense of hum we're actually laughing about it anyway. Okay, people,

824
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: we're a pair of sicos. Let's move on. So the

825
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: juror thought, well, you know, there's two opposing stories and

826
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: they both make sense. You know, this could have happened

827
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: this way, could have happened that way. I know, we'll

828
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,479
Speaker 2: ask the deceased. And they brought the wag aboard into

829
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: the jury room and they said about having a seance

830
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 2: to try to communicate with the deceased. This was discovered

831
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: and the and the appeal was successful.

832
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, well see now if we had your facilitator

833
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: in there, that could have been that he could have

834
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: or she could have sorted that one out and go no,

835
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: we can't have a sance in the jury. That would

836
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: never have happen. Not allowed, absolutely, But okay, bizarre. Look,

837
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: there's a thousand more things that we could talk about.

838
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: I want to make mention of your book about life,

839
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: law and not Enough Shoes. How did you come up

840
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: with the title of your book?

841
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: Probably through being a girly criminal lawyer and dealing with

842
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: all the things that came with being a girly criminal lawyer.

843
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: And the thing is that shoes don't judge you. Shoes

844
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: are non judgmental. You know, Shoes love you no matter what.

845
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes I just took pleasure in the

846
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: fact that I could be a girl doing a blokes

847
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: job and I could still stay a girl. They haven't

848
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: been dipped in blood, but.

849
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: Right they look they rocket.

850
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also I got into trouble from a judge

851
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: for wearing zebra striped shoes once in court because he

852
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: said it was distracting the jury. I know who it

853
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 2: was distracting, and it wasn't the jury, And I reckon

854
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: black and white went with my lawyer's outfit anyway, So.

855
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: You wear you go, girl, you wear that look. There's

856
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of other stuff that I

857
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,439
Speaker 1: wanted to to speak to you about, but think we've

858
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: only scratched the surface of some of the things you've

859
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: seen and done. I was going to ask about cruising

860
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: the world on the q E two entertaining guests. After

861
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: sitting down with you for the podcast, I can see

862
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: why you're invited on cruise ships as a speaker. Just

863
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: tell us briefly about that. Experience, because that would be

864
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: quite it's not the typical career path that a high

865
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: profile barrister goes down. But the talking gig on.

866
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: Cruising, well, again, it happened by accident, of course, and

867
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: this seems to be a bit of a thing.

868
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to start to call you Forrest Gump. You

869
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: know how he went through his life? Ok, how did

870
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 1: this accident? How did this accident?

871
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: I was actually on a cruise paying for it, and.

872
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: There was this guy had too much to drink at

873
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,479
Speaker 1: the bar and then started talking and.

874
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 2: Drink what seriously, And yes, you should apologize for that

875
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: slur on my character. No, I was listening to one

876
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: of their lecturers and he was terrible. He actually got

877
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 2: the stuff to wheel a desk on the stage and

878
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 2: then sat behind a desk and read from a stack

879
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 2: of papers. It was awful. And see I'm carefully not

880
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: saying which cruise line it was, but it was terrible,

881
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: and I thought, anyone, not just me, anyone can do

882
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: better than that. So I asked him how he got

883
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: his gig, and he said, I've got an agent in

884
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: Miami and they get me the gig. So I wrote

885
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: to the agent and said, how about it, and you

886
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: have to give a bit of outline of sorts of

887
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 2: things you can talk about. So I gave them a

888
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: bit of an outline, and of course CSI was all

889
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 2: the rage and I could talk about forensics and crime

890
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: and next thing I knew. My first gig actually was

891
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: on the Queen Mary, and I went from there to

892
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 2: all sorts of other cruise lines. And what happens is

893
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: you go on these six star cruises. You don't have

894
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 2: to pay, You're treated as a guest. You can take

895
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: a friend, play cards. Right, No, you'd have to share

896
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: a room with me. You won't want to do that.

897
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I have to talk about stuff I

898
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: know about. But the other cool thing about is these

899
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: audiences are usually quite well. No one's forcing them to

900
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 2: go to lectures. They're choosing to, so they want to learn.

901
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 2: They want to know about this stuff. And it's been

902
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: some of my most satisfying teaching moments, because I've done

903
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: a lot of teaching of my career. People will go

904
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: out and say, you know, I'm thinking about things differently

905
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: from now on. I have this thing called ABC. Assume nothing, believe,

906
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: no one check everything they said, going to be more

907
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 2: critical in a good sense of the word. We're not

908
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: going to take what the media tells us at face value.

909
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: We are going to ask questions. You know, we've learned

910
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: a different way of thinking and that just gives me

911
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 2: such joy.

912
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: Well, what a great gig you got there, and I

913
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: can imagine you would be very popular and entertaining for

914
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: the people listening to your talk because I've got a

915
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: sense of the way you tell a story from a

916
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: sit down today. So I want to thank you so

917
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: much for coming on the podcast. How do people get

918
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 1: your book?

919
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: The only way now is you have to actually again

920
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 2: google me, go to my website. You can order it

921
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: there or flip me an email. It's out of print.

922
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 2: That went to three print runs, I might add, and

923
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 2: it wasn't Vanity published either, it had a real publisher,

924
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 2: so it's.

925
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: A real book.

926
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: I am. So you can contact me and while stocks last,

927
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: I can post the book or get it to people.

928
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much, and I want to thank

929
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: you for the work that you've done because I know

930
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: having people who genuinely care in the legal in the

931
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 1: justice system makes a difference from police of victims, everyone

932
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,439
Speaker 1: involved in it. And I can see your care and

933
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: you're smart. You've got everything that people knew, and I

934
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: can see why people were lucky to have you defending

935
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: the move. They got into trouble. Well, if I do

936
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: get over the w A a bit. If I get

937
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: into trouble, I know who I'm calling. Not that I'm

938
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: ever going to get into trouble again. I've had enough

939
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: of that. I don't want to be in a court

940
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: again at this stage. I look okay, thank you very much.

941
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: No problem at all.

942
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: Cheez