Speaker 1: It's really good to see you look gorgeous as always.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm getting more sleep now so I feel like
Speaker 2: I maybe have stopped dating in dog ears.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Something to Talk About the Stella podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Sarah lamafain to your host, and every week I
Speaker 1: sit down with some of the biggest names in the
Speaker 1: country because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they
Speaker 1: come to Something to talk about. Twelve months ago, almost
Speaker 1: of the day, Brooke Boney was lying in bed in
Speaker 1: the early hours of the morning preparing for one of
Speaker 1: the biggest announcements of her life. She was quitting the
Speaker 1: Today Show to move to the UK to enroll in
Speaker 1: the Masters at Oxford University.
Speaker 2: I don't want to go into too much right now,
Speaker 2: because there will be plenty of time for goodbyes and
Speaker 2: thank yous, but I just wanted to share that good
Speaker 2: slash bad news with you all this morning.
Speaker 1: For many people, it was a shock because for a
Speaker 1: television presenter, the Today Show is a kind of job
Speaker 1: you never leave, but not for Brook.
Speaker 2: I always wanted to do things so that I could
Speaker 2: show like young women from the country, or young Aboriginal girls,
Speaker 2: or you know, any I guess anyone really like that.
Speaker 2: You know, if you want to do something that it's
Speaker 2: kind of it's not beyond you, if you work really
Speaker 2: hard and there are lots of people who help you,
Speaker 2: and if you're lucky.
Speaker 1: A proud Gamilla Roy woman, Brook worked hard at building
Speaker 1: a career in journalism and became the first Indigenous woman
Speaker 1: on a commercial, breakfast TV show when she joined The
Speaker 1: Today Show six years ago as a news and entertainment reporter. Now,
Speaker 1: twelve months on from that shock announcement, Brook joins me
Speaker 1: from her dorm room in Oxford to talk about what
Speaker 1: her life looks like since leaving Today and to chat
Speaker 1: about some of the revelations in her new memoir, All
Speaker 1: of It, including her thoughts on body image, fertility, fame,
Speaker 1: and the truth about First Nations representation on Australian TV.
Speaker 1: Brooke Bowney, Welcome to the Stellar Podcast.
Speaker 2: Sarah. Thank you. It's so nice to see you.
Speaker 1: It is so nice to see you too. I used
Speaker 1: to see you all the time in Australia at the
Speaker 1: studio on the Today Show and then of course you're
Speaker 1: packed up and you moved to Oxford, which is where
Speaker 1: you are beaming into this interview from literally from your
Speaker 1: dorm room. Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm inside my dorm room. So my college is
Speaker 2: San Antony's. You can see kind of out the window
Speaker 2: that the trees are starting to get little tiny buds
Speaker 2: on them, but it is freezing cold, and I've got
Speaker 2: class today. I've got exams next week, so I'm very
Speaker 2: much feeling like a student and not like a Today's
Speaker 2: Show host anymore, like when I used to see you
Speaker 2: early in the morning.
Speaker 1: Brook, Congratulations on your memoir, which is coming out very soon.
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold it up for people that are
Speaker 1: watching it on YouTube. I mean, it's exciting for me
Speaker 1: to hold this book. I can only imagine how exciting
Speaker 1: it is for you who wrote the book.
Speaker 2: It feels kind of surreal, so like I feel like
Speaker 2: everyone says this about themselves, and I swear I'm not
Speaker 2: being disingenuous, but to be somewhere like Oxford or in Oxford,
Speaker 2: and then to have written a book as well, I
Speaker 2: didn't ever think that I would do things like that,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't. I thought that those things were for like,
Speaker 2: really exceptional people, for people who weren't me. Basically, I
Speaker 2: remember going with a walk for a walk with a
Speaker 2: friend in Bonda would have been about maybe nearly ten
Speaker 2: years ago. I probably just started on Triple J and
Speaker 2: he'd just finished in Oxford and he was writing a book,
Speaker 2: and I was like, wow, like that's so impressive, that
Speaker 2: is so cool. And it didn't even occur to me
Speaker 2: that those things would be something that I could do.
Speaker 2: It wasn't even like, oh, that's aspirational. It seemed so
Speaker 2: far out of the realm of possibility for me, and
Speaker 2: so to have done it now it just feels surreal,
Speaker 2: like it doesn't feel like it's happening to me. I
Speaker 2: feel like I've stepped onto a different timeline.
Speaker 1: I wanted to actually start where your book starts, which
Speaker 1: is almost exactly a year ago, March twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: and you write about waking up and knowing that you
Speaker 1: were prepared bring yourself, bracing yourself really to tell the
Speaker 1: entire nation that you had decided to leave your job
Speaker 1: as a news and entertainment presenter on the Today Show
Speaker 1: on Breakfast TV, and as we've just talked about, moved
Speaker 1: to the other side of the world and study a
Speaker 1: master's at Oxford University. Take us back if you could
Speaker 1: to that morning.
Speaker 2: Even hearing you say that, it makes me feel like
Speaker 2: a bit uneasy, like I'm going through it again. Like
Speaker 2: I remember first getting the email to say that I'd
Speaker 2: gotten in and then trying to make the decision because
Speaker 2: I got a couple of different offers, so I was
Speaker 2: trying to make the decision about where I was going
Speaker 2: to go, and then thinking like, am I haven't going
Speaker 2: to be allowed to go? Are they going to are
Speaker 2: they going to let me do this? Is this? You know,
Speaker 2: I'm contracted for longer than you know when this offer,
Speaker 2: you know, is coming through. And I remember calling my agent,
Speaker 2: Michelle and being like can you I need to speak
Speaker 2: to you? Can you sit down? And she was sort
Speaker 2: of like yes, because you know what it's like if
Speaker 2: you get a phone call like that, you think someone
Speaker 2: is like sick, or there's something going on, or I
Speaker 2: think probably people thought, oh, she's pregnant, like when I
Speaker 2: had to tell them because I was so sort of
Speaker 2: serious with the tone. I'm like, Okay, you need to
Speaker 2: be somewhere alone and you need to sit down, and
Speaker 2: just trying to explain to her and sort of like
Speaker 2: walk her through it was so bizarre, and then you know,
Speaker 2: as it got sort of closer and closer to the
Speaker 2: day where I had to tell my boss Burlow, and
Speaker 2: you know, you know what Burlo's like, like he's so
Speaker 2: sort of jovial, but you know, quite serious as well.
Speaker 2: And so we finish our meeting, like our editorial meeting
Speaker 2: that we have every day after the show, and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, can you just can you just stay?
Speaker 2: I just wanted to talk to you about something, and
Speaker 2: he was sort of like, what's going on? And the
Speaker 2: immediate response from everyone was it was just joy because
Speaker 2: you know, how could you possibly be upset about that?
Speaker 2: But in my mind, I was like, everyone's going to
Speaker 2: be angry at me, believing they're going to be annoyed
Speaker 2: at me for you know, disrupting the show. And then
Speaker 2: of course, once you tell like you know, your agent
Speaker 2: and your boss and you know, you sort of have
Speaker 2: people figuring out contracts and things like that, it's really
Speaker 2: it's very real. And then the moment starts where you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I hope this doesn't leak, like I hope that I'm
Speaker 2: able to announce it, because you know, if it leaks,
Speaker 2: then it's like, oh, she's leaving, but why? And there's
Speaker 2: no sort of detail. So I was just so nervous.
Speaker 2: I didn't tell anyone. I think I told Carl and
Speaker 2: Sarah like a couple of days before, and they were
Speaker 2: both just like, oh, you're going to get off the
Speaker 2: early mornings. But then they were both really sad that
Speaker 2: I was leaving and that that was pretty pretty lovely too.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so nice to have something that you
Speaker 2: love so much that you miss it when you and
Speaker 2: that that's how I felt about them as I was going.
Speaker 2: And then the morning of so we've got like rundowns
Speaker 2: so that you can sort of go through the show.
Speaker 2: It's sort of like a list, you know, like a
Speaker 2: contents list, and in each each heading there's a script
Speaker 2: and there was one heading that said surprise news something
Speaker 2: like that, and so it all started. Everyone was like
Speaker 2: a bus like, oh, what's going on? Like who's leaving?
Speaker 2: Is what's the announcement? And I was getting text messages
Speaker 2: from people like what's the Today Show announcing? And says
Speaker 2: and I just sitting there next to each other, both
Speaker 2: being like they're going to think one of us is pregnant.
Speaker 2: They were building it up and we're both like young women,
Speaker 2: like you know, and then the moment that it happened.
Speaker 2: I felt so relieved that it was, that it was
Speaker 2: out and that you know, I can sort of speak
Speaker 2: about it openly, but also just kind of like sick
Speaker 2: that like there's a finality to that. You know, you
Speaker 2: can't really go back after that. And so like once
Speaker 2: I said it out loud and said it on TV,
Speaker 2: that's it, I'm going.
Speaker 1: It's really real then, isn't it. It's even more real
Speaker 1: than the contracts in some ways because it's been said
Speaker 1: and it talked about the joy when when you manager
Speaker 1: Michelle and your boss Burlow and you told them, and
Speaker 1: also obviously sadness from Carl and Sarah, but also happiness
Speaker 1: for you. But then the reaction people of Brooke that
Speaker 1: you don't know, the people that were waking up every
Speaker 1: morning and watching you and following the story on social
Speaker 1: media and heard it. It was a real moment. And
Speaker 1: I was thinking about it when you were talking earlier
Speaker 1: about about a decade ago, thinking I could never be
Speaker 1: that person that goes and studies at Oxford and writes
Speaker 1: a book. You, I think became that person for a
Speaker 1: lot of people in that moment because you took a
Speaker 1: risk you were there in a job that we think
Speaker 1: or you've got that job, you never let go of
Speaker 1: that something like that. Obviously in your industry, it's one
Speaker 1: of the biggest jobs in the country, but whoever is
Speaker 1: watching or listening, you know, to get to that point
Speaker 1: in their career and then take this risk, go and
Speaker 1: do something that a lot of us think about but
Speaker 1: don't do. Were you aware of that reaction and how
Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? And what would you
Speaker 1: say to people that come up and say, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it really inspired me, or I don't think I could
Speaker 1: ever find the courage to do what you did.
Speaker 2: It's so weird to think of it as courage or
Speaker 2: or is anything other than just kind of doing what
Speaker 2: you have to do. And I mean, it is truly
Speaker 2: the best job. And there have been moments where I've
Speaker 2: been like, what the heck am I doing? Why would
Speaker 2: I leave this place? Like it's a great job. I
Speaker 2: love the team, Like it's wonderful in so many ways.
Speaker 2: You know, you get to go in every morning and
Speaker 2: be with the hair and makeup girls and like, you know,
Speaker 2: they're just so wonderful. They make you feel so good,
Speaker 2: and you know, so many of them have become really
Speaker 2: close friends. But I think for me, I think it
Speaker 2: depends on why you do it, right. I always wanted
Speaker 2: to do things so that I could show like young
Speaker 2: women from the country, or young Aboriginal girls, or you know,
Speaker 2: any I guess anyone really like you. You know, if
Speaker 2: you want to do something that it's kind of it's
Speaker 2: not beyond you, if you work really hard and if
Speaker 2: there are lots of people who help you, and if
Speaker 2: you're lucky basically, and so once i'd sort of done
Speaker 2: that and I was like, Okay, there's other things that
Speaker 2: I really want to do. If I don't do them now,
Speaker 2: then I kind of never will. And so I kind
Speaker 2: of got to a point where it felt like the
Speaker 2: only option, if that makes sense, like to stay would
Speaker 2: have been sort of wouldn't have been like, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: so lucky to be here, but it would have been
Speaker 2: robbing myself of another alternative, If that makes sense.
Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: decisions can be like that, if you're grappling with them, well,
Speaker 1: what if I didn't do this and then and sometimes
Speaker 1: you know straight away yeah.
Speaker 2: So I think in a way, it wasn't like, oh, yes,
Speaker 2: I'm so brave for doing this. Although I can see
Speaker 2: like why people would think that because it's so lovely
Speaker 2: being on the Today Show, but it was like, oh no,
Speaker 2: this is literally the only option. Like if I'm able to,
Speaker 2: then then I must, like I have to What.
Speaker 1: Are the things that you miss the most from your
Speaker 1: previous life? If that's not too dramatic a way to
Speaker 1: put it.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that's out. Your life is so easy
Speaker 2: when you're on the Today Show because you work so
Speaker 2: hard and the stakes are so high, and so there's
Speaker 2: lots of things like you know, the hair and makeup
Speaker 2: ladies and they're always sort of gassing you up and
Speaker 2: making you feel good, and you know, Alex and Beck
Speaker 2: and Ari from Wardrobe like helping you choose what to
Speaker 2: wear every day. Like when I came over here, it
Speaker 2: felt so kind of weird to step away from that
Speaker 2: because I was like, oh, I don't have any support.
Speaker 2: You know, you have support because it's such a big
Speaker 2: job and it's a big life when you're on the show.
Speaker 2: But here I was like, you know, part of stepping
Speaker 2: into that anonymity and that you know, woman of mystery.
Speaker 2: Thing that I wanted to do was I meant that
Speaker 2: I'm you know, it was on my own. I have
Speaker 2: to organize everything myself. I don't have producers and I
Speaker 2: don't have any anyone to sort of help me get
Speaker 2: dressed for stuff or you know, figure my life out.
Speaker 2: And there have been moments where I'm like, oh, this
Speaker 2: is actually it's there's a lot. Yes, not to feel
Speaker 2: sorry for myself at all, but yeah, like it made
Speaker 2: me feel grateful for the times that I that I
Speaker 2: did have that support. I think going straight from the
Speaker 2: Olympics into Oxford was was jarring because it was like
Speaker 2: the Olympics was like the Today Show on steroids, because
Speaker 2: we were all together for what four or five weeks,
Speaker 2: like all sort of staying at the same hotel, going
Speaker 2: in through hair and makeup every day, working crazy hours,
Speaker 2: just you know, all working our butts off and sore.
Speaker 2: It was like, you know, being with work people all
Speaker 2: the time who are like, you know, there are our
Speaker 2: friends anyway. But to go from that and having all
Speaker 2: of the support and the whole network around you, you
Speaker 2: sort of feel so tightly held and you're there with
Speaker 2: purpose to getting to London and being on my own
Speaker 2: and sort of for the first time kind of stopping
Speaker 2: and exhaling. It was like the two things couldn't have
Speaker 2: been more different. I couldn't have been more on my
Speaker 2: own when I got to London. But it didn't feel bad.
Speaker 2: I still, in that moment, felt like I've done the
Speaker 2: right thing here.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, have there ever been any
Speaker 1: moments where you think, oh, gosh, what did I do?
Speaker 1: I've made a really dumb decision here? Any regrets.
Speaker 2: I know everyone talks about the weather in London in
Speaker 2: the UK generally, but it is like a bit boring.
Speaker 2: But I think that you don't kind of get how
Speaker 2: much of an impact it has on your life until
Speaker 2: you get here. You have to live through it. But
Speaker 2: the winter is there have been moments during the winter
Speaker 2: where I've been like, why did I choose to come
Speaker 2: here again? I could be you know, watching cricket and
Speaker 2: eating ham sandwiches and going down to Red Leaf for
Speaker 2: a swim. Instead, I'm like, you know, putting on my
Speaker 2: gum boots and trying to get to class in the snow,
Speaker 2: trying not to slip over and like, you know, break
Speaker 2: my neck on the way on the way into school.
Speaker 2: And I think it's not so much they're cold, even
Speaker 2: that is bad, but it's it's how dark it is.
Speaker 2: I think Australians take for granted how much sunshine we
Speaker 2: have all the time, even in winter. Like the other
Speaker 2: days on the on FaceTime to my sister and she's like,
Speaker 2: do you want me to walk outside and I'll show
Speaker 2: you some sunshine, and like you know, she walked out
Speaker 2: and it was just like so bright and so beautiful.
Speaker 2: And then I showed her outside my window and I
Speaker 2: think it had been great, Like I hadn't seen the
Speaker 2: sky for a ten days, and that sort of that's
Speaker 2: a bizarre feeling. Like in those moments, I'm like, oh no,
Speaker 2: I've really messed this up, Like what am I doing?
Speaker 2: What an idiot?
Speaker 1: And up next, Brook opens up about the toll being
Speaker 1: the first Indigenous person on commercial breakfast TV in Australia
Speaker 1: took on her mental health. Brook I wanted just to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about apart from the fact that
Speaker 1: your anonymity was short lived among your classmates outside in
Speaker 1: the wider culture, because you talk before about you know,
Speaker 1: going down to redlif going to the beach in Australia,
Speaker 1: and often that might be a pap is following you
Speaker 1: and you're writing the book about, you know, the darker
Speaker 1: side of fame and the unrelenting side of it, and
Speaker 1: from you know, really serious instances of being stalked and
Speaker 1: followed and the intrusion. I'm assuming that your woman of
Speaker 1: Missy identity is hopefully preserved for the most part when
Speaker 1: you venture off campus. Can I ask you a little
Speaker 1: bit about that? What are your observations about celebrity culture
Speaker 1: in Australia now you've got a bit of distance from it.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much that kind of thing had
Speaker 2: an impact on me until I was away from it.
Speaker 2: I'm definitely not like one of the most famous, you know, women,
Speaker 2: or someone who even gets harassed that much by photographers
Speaker 2: or anything. But you always sort of have that in
Speaker 2: the back of your mind, so you don't feel like
Speaker 2: you could ever sort of leave or be in like
Speaker 2: public spaces or whatever without that thing sort of going,
Speaker 2: like someone could be taking a photo of you right now,
Speaker 2: or like you could be getting papped. Like it's just
Speaker 2: sort of like a it's not in the front of
Speaker 2: your mind, but it's sort of just like omnipresent, you're
Speaker 2: just always aware that you're in public on display. And
Speaker 2: also like when you do have those awful stalking incidents,
Speaker 2: sometimes they are unresolved. You know, the person, whoever it is,
Speaker 2: is still out there, you know, like they still have
Speaker 2: maybe they still have a desire to be in contact
Speaker 2: with you. Maybe they're even more enthusiastic or in you know,
Speaker 2: crazy than what they were before. You just don't know.
Speaker 2: And so, you know, that sort of thing I think
Speaker 2: is always it's always in the back of your mind,
Speaker 2: and here, because I'm so far removed from it, I
Speaker 2: think there's a layer of stress or preparedness that's just
Speaker 2: not there. So I feel so much more relaxed. And
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much of a toll or how
Speaker 2: much of a weight that was until I was away
Speaker 2: from it.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because it's a bit like the weather. You wouldn't
Speaker 1: realize the impact it's having on you until it's no
Speaker 1: longer a factor.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So I'm coming home very soon, and I
Speaker 2: think it's going to be interesting to experience what it's
Speaker 2: like in reverse. If that feeling will just automatically come back,
Speaker 2: or now that you know, because I'm not on TV anymore,
Speaker 2: maybe it will be a bit less. I don't know,
Speaker 2: like I won't be able to feel it as much.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'll wait and see.
Speaker 1: That's right. Well, you will be coming home and look
Speaker 1: us putting you on the cover of Stella probably won't
Speaker 1: help there, so you know, probably will have the perhaps
Speaker 1: waiting at the airport. So apologies for that part, Brook, I.
Speaker 2: Look good when I get off the plane that we.
Speaker 1: All call in the hair and makeup people from the
Speaker 1: Today Show, you know, one last hurrah, Brook. I'd like
Speaker 1: to touch upon a few different chapters and topics that
Speaker 1: you tackle in all of it. One of them I'd
Speaker 1: like to talk about is the lies we're told about
Speaker 1: fertility and such a great topic, such a powerful way
Speaker 1: that you tackle this issue. What are the lies that
Speaker 1: we're told about fertility?
Speaker 2: I think you know, from even when we're young, we
Speaker 2: all sort of have this idea and maybe the generations
Speaker 2: blow us are a bit different, but that motherhood or
Speaker 2: parenthood is a right or you know that it will
Speaker 2: just happen. I think we're finding out as we get
Speaker 2: into our you know, thirties and forties, that it really
Speaker 2: doesn't for a lot of people. I did a couple
Speaker 2: of rounds of egg freezing, and they do this thing
Speaker 2: where they like they you know, it's got your age
Speaker 2: on one side, and then you know the number of
Speaker 2: eggs on the other, and then they've got like a
Speaker 2: line and it tells you like how likely you are
Speaker 2: to have a live birth based on how many eggs
Speaker 2: they retrieve. And it's really daunting because you're like, what, like,
Speaker 2: there's a chance that this won't work, Like I'll pay
Speaker 2: all this money and put my body through all of
Speaker 2: this and then it might not even yield any positive
Speaker 2: results for me. This isn't like this is a rip off.
Speaker 2: There's no justice in this. And then the more that
Speaker 2: I learned that, I was like, wait, it's the same
Speaker 2: for me. Like men, their fertility drops off, like sperm
Speaker 2: quality goes down, the sperm count goes down. There's all
Speaker 2: of these environmental factors now that are around us that
Speaker 2: mean that you know, no one is as fertile as
Speaker 2: what we sort of used to be. So I was like,
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be waiting so long if we want to
Speaker 2: have babies. This is crazy. Why do we delay it
Speaker 2: for so long? And then finally we're like, oh no, no,
Speaker 2: we're desperate to do it. We're going to pay tens
Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars and we must do this in
Speaker 2: the next two years. It's so it's so weird as
Speaker 2: a woman. I don't know whether you felt like this,
Speaker 2: but you know, you spend your whole life trying not
Speaker 2: to get pregnant. You know, from your whole twenties, you're like,
Speaker 2: you know, please, you be so happy when you get
Speaker 2: a period, but then it gets to a certain point
Speaker 2: you're like, oh no, oh, no, I'm going to run
Speaker 2: out of time, and it's like overnight, it just sort
Speaker 2: of switches. It's so bizarre. So I think I you know,
Speaker 2: and I wrote about it at the time when I
Speaker 2: did my egg freezing, But every time I have a
Speaker 2: conversation with a woman who's in her thirty something like, please,
Speaker 2: for the love of God, even if you have to
Speaker 2: borrow money from your parents or something like or I
Speaker 2: don't know, figure it out, freeze your eggs because it
Speaker 2: means you know, you're going to be able to work,
Speaker 2: you know, for longer if you feel like it. But
Speaker 2: also you're not going to have pressure when you're dating
Speaker 2: to feel like you have to settle down with the
Speaker 2: person that you're with, or even like the timing of things,
Speaker 2: like you have just a little bit more control, or
Speaker 2: at least you feel like you've got control over it.
Speaker 2: But there's this really interesting fact. I don't know whether
Speaker 2: it's the same now, it's what it was when I
Speaker 2: froze mine, but apparently most women don't even go back
Speaker 2: for them because they either don't decide they don't want
Speaker 2: to have children or they feel pregnant naturally. It's just
Speaker 2: like an insurance thing.
Speaker 1: That's right. It's the peace of mind, isn't it. I
Speaker 1: love everything that you've said, And as you say, there's
Speaker 1: that sort of invisible line that seems to happen overnight.
Speaker 1: I also love brookout you touched upon it there and
Speaker 1: you write about it in the book that it is
Speaker 1: also about not rushing into something with potentially the wrong
Speaker 1: person because of that deadline. And I love where you say,
Speaker 1: really we should be asking ourselves. Is this person the
Speaker 1: person that I see myself raising a child with if
Speaker 1: that's what you're wanting, but also if it doesn't work out,
Speaker 1: Is this somebody that I see myself co parenting with?
Speaker 1: I mean, I love that, and that's again I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm obviously older than you, but that's not a conversation
Speaker 1: that would have happened a couple of generations ago.
Speaker 2: I think it's very pragmatic and not very romantic, but
Speaker 2: it is quite realistic because you know all of the
Speaker 2: stats to say this, and you know how many people
Speaker 2: people get divorced now at a really high rate, And
Speaker 2: I think there's some stat around like you know, half
Speaker 2: babies born now will be raised by single parents or
Speaker 2: co parents, And so even if if you're I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just feel like it's wise to consider how people
Speaker 2: would behave in that situation. Like if you can tell
Speaker 2: someone's not going to be pleasant in that dynamic, then
Speaker 2: maybe that's a sign that you, I don't know, shouldn't
Speaker 2: be together or at least shouldn't be having children together. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I feel like it goes against my natural inclination
Speaker 2: to be like a bit more of a romantic and
Speaker 2: a bit more hopeful, but it is I think it's
Speaker 2: wise to consider that stuff.
Speaker 1: Brooke, you also write really candidly and resonated with me
Speaker 1: and I'm sure also with a lot of other women
Speaker 1: about body image and how beauty standards have shifted over time,
Speaker 1: your relationship with your own body has shifted over time,
Speaker 1: and then of course the impact of that national stage
Speaker 1: and being on stage on Breakfast TV every morning. What's
Speaker 1: your relationship like with your body now? And why I
Speaker 1: was body image something that you I know I've spoken
Speaker 1: about it before, but you wanted to address quite early
Speaker 1: on in the book.
Speaker 2: I think because it is so complicated and it's so nuanced,
Speaker 2: and it felt like a book or a long essay
Speaker 2: was a nice place to sort of unpack some of
Speaker 2: the things around it. I think, you know, for a
Speaker 2: long time, I was like a you know, one of
Speaker 2: those women who was like, Oh, if only I could
Speaker 2: be just like a little bit thinner, then I would
Speaker 2: be like my life would be perfect. And you know,
Speaker 2: as I sort of grew into my body a bit
Speaker 2: more and I guess sort of became a bit more
Speaker 2: comfortable with myself kind of all around, I was like,
Speaker 2: oh no, actually, like this is fine, like you and
Speaker 2: more than that, like I think one of my nieces
Speaker 2: were born and i'd been through like the freezing process.
Speaker 2: It really shifted the way that I thought about the
Speaker 2: way that I look and the way that I feel
Speaker 2: about how I look because one of my nieces looks
Speaker 2: so similar to me, and I think she's so beautiful
Speaker 2: She's the most precious little thing, and the thought of
Speaker 2: her ever feeling bad about herself actually makes me feel sick,
Speaker 2: Like even thinking of it makes me want to cry,
Speaker 2: that she would feel anything but love for herself. And
Speaker 2: then I was like, well, why shouldn't I should extend
Speaker 2: that grace to myself? And like, how could I be
Speaker 2: or like, have any sort of negative or anything other
Speaker 2: than lovely to say about myself, Like, you know, my
Speaker 2: mom and my nan and my aunties would think that
Speaker 2: about me, so I should. I don't know, I should
Speaker 2: feel that way about myself as well. And that's not
Speaker 2: to say that I had like particularly low self esteem,
Speaker 2: Like I think it was just sort of the normal
Speaker 2: self criticism that anyone has, like, oh, you know, I
Speaker 2: feel a bit chubby, so I'm not gonna wear a
Speaker 2: bikini to the beach, or you know, I feel like
Speaker 2: i've got cellults, I'm not gonna wear short shorts or something,
Speaker 2: which is like, in hindsight, it's ridiculous when I see
Speaker 2: photos of myself from when I was like eighteen or
Speaker 2: nineteen now, I'm like, I should have been walking around
Speaker 2: in a bikini all the time, wearing one to work,
Speaker 2: even like that, you know, I wish that I and
Speaker 2: everyone says this right like that you could go back
Speaker 2: and be like, gosh, God, damn it, woman, like, don't
Speaker 2: feel like that. I think that. The thing about the
Speaker 2: egg freezing as well, was that for the first time
Speaker 2: my body was something other than how it looked it was.
Speaker 2: It was really useful and and I felt just so
Speaker 2: wonderful sort of sitting in it and thinking about like,
Speaker 2: you know, nourishing it and what it needed to be
Speaker 2: able to like grow my you know, genetic contribution to
Speaker 2: any baby that would come from the eggs. And it
Speaker 2: was sort of feeling those those hormones and what they
Speaker 2: were doing and seeing your body change because it change
Speaker 2: is quite rapidly when you're doing egg freezing because they
Speaker 2: have to sort of grow and make space in you Tommy.
Speaker 2: So just to sort of see those changes happen and
Speaker 2: feel them happen, you're like, oh, no, this is miracle,
Speaker 2: this is wonderful. But at the same time, in seeing like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm mostly pretty comfortable with my body. If I could
Speaker 2: just change a couple of things, or like I feel
Speaker 2: pretty good or whatever. Seeing other friends sort of struggle
Speaker 2: with their weight or their idea of themselves that was
Speaker 2: completely foreign to me. And I know that sounds really
Speaker 2: privileged to say, because so many people do stuffer from
Speaker 2: meeting disorders and aren't happy with themselves. But it's so
Speaker 2: bizarre to me that someone could feel like a stranger
Speaker 2: in their own body or not feel comfortable in their
Speaker 2: own Like you live in it, you know, you can't
Speaker 2: escape from it, and so then if you feel such
Speaker 2: awful things about it, then you have to be in
Speaker 2: that all the time. And I just have so much
Speaker 2: sympathy for them, And I mean, I'm not even going
Speaker 2: to say anything useful. I just wish it was different.
Speaker 2: I wish there was something that I could say to
Speaker 2: be like, no, but it looks so beautiful, like you
Speaker 2: are so beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's you know, I think, And I think sometimes even
Speaker 1: just acknowledging that someone is living in that battle and
Speaker 1: that perspective, as you have expressed there, that you're in
Speaker 1: the body and you hate your body and you're at
Speaker 1: war with your body, Like what is that to live?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: I think just to even acknowledge that is important, because
Speaker 1: that's sometimes all any of us can do when we
Speaker 1: really don't understand someone else's lived experience. Brook. You reference
Speaker 1: some research in the book which I really wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to you about about our body image, and you say, interestingly,
Speaker 1: despite the saturation of mainstream media white people and white bodies,
Speaker 1: research from the UK based Mental Health Foundation shows that
Speaker 1: black people have a healthier relationship with their bodies than
Speaker 1: the rest of the population. Was that surprising research to you?
Speaker 1: That's really fascinating research. I certainly found that as a
Speaker 1: white woman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was interesting too, because my thought was, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, as is the case with most like mental
Speaker 2: health issues or other sort of health concerns, I thought
Speaker 2: that there would be it would be a big issue
Speaker 2: for women of color and men of color. But then
Speaker 2: when I found that study, and I don't have it
Speaker 2: in front of me, so I can't reference the exact figures,
Speaker 2: but I'll just give you the gist of it. I
Speaker 2: think because of the proliferation of images of people like
Speaker 2: Kim Kardashian or others, where you know, being curvy is
Speaker 2: popular again. You know, it's sort of something to aspire to. You.
Speaker 2: People are getting bibls and things like that, and breasting
Speaker 2: plants that their idea of themselves because they sort of
Speaker 2: fit outside of what the sort of norm is. So
Speaker 2: so like Kate Moss or or Nicole Ritchie or whatever,
Speaker 2: those sorts of things didn't apply to them, like those
Speaker 2: sorts of rules or those sorts of like strict guidelines
Speaker 2: of what's acceptable and what's not didn't apply. And so
Speaker 2: that that was my read of it. It was interesting
Speaker 2: because sometimes I like, I feel like, even though I'm
Speaker 2: quite thin, like I still have like curves, And sometimes
Speaker 2: if I see someone who has like an excellent body
Speaker 2: that's like quite muscular and like thin or whatever, and
Speaker 2: I think, like, oh, you know, I've got a big bump,
Speaker 2: Like I've always had a big bum, So I don't
Speaker 2: have to feel jealous or I don't have to compare
Speaker 2: myself to that because we're so different. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: It really does make sense. And the reason I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you about it was because, as you said,
Speaker 1: you often see research and you regretfully think, well, unfortunately
Speaker 1: women of color are going to over index in an
Speaker 1: area of disadvantage because that so many times, of course,
Speaker 1: he is what the reality is and what the facts
Speaker 1: bear that out, And anytime there is something like that,
Speaker 1: I think it's always great to illuminate it, and I
Speaker 1: love that you've included in the book, and I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I think a really fascinating insight into why that
Speaker 1: might be.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you, I wonder if there are verse
Speaker 2: is true, like do you see someone like Kim Kardashian
Speaker 2: or like a woman of color, see someone like Scissa
Speaker 2: Even and think, oh, she looks amazing, But I don't
Speaker 2: have to compare myself to her because I'm different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good question. You know what I
Speaker 1: I think I might. I can honestly say to this second,
Speaker 1: I've never consciously thought that about body image, but I
Speaker 1: have thought it about other aspects. So I'll give you
Speaker 1: an example is aging. And there's so much pressure on
Speaker 1: women when it comes to aging. And I will often
Speaker 1: look at I'm a white woman and another white woman
Speaker 1: and there's a bit of an you know, they might
Speaker 1: make me think, oh, gosh, like, why don't I look
Speaker 1: like that? Whereas I think, because I find off on
Speaker 1: women of color, it's almost it's just beyond my capacity
Speaker 1: to compare, because it's just not something I could ever emulate.
Speaker 1: I think. So, yes, now that you say that, you're right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. Isn't it. I think the aging thing
Speaker 2: is interesting because we like I guess it's a skin
Speaker 2: thing or I don't know, like it's a genetic thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's obviously that saying.
Speaker 1: But like.
Speaker 2: It's when I look at like my mum's skin or whatever,
Speaker 2: or my nan skin and they've got like this incredible
Speaker 2: skin with like hardly any wrinkles, I think, Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: I hope that I inherit that, like, please, please, please please,
Speaker 2: not just intergenerational trauma. Please can I have it?
Speaker 1: That's that's right. You got to inherit like the whole
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Brook. I wanted to ask about a
Speaker 1: really powerful question that you pose in the book on
Speaker 1: the conversation around you say, does it make you a
Speaker 1: bit of a sicko to be able to endure racism?
Speaker 1: Because you can see that there is broader benefit to it,
Speaker 1: both individually and for the community, and obviously in the
Speaker 1: context of where you're writing about that in the book.
Speaker 1: This is something I've actually discussed on this podcast before
Speaker 1: with well a former Breakfast TV compatriot of yours, Tony Armstrong,
Speaker 1: who writes a lovely testimonial for the book and regular
Speaker 1: listeners of this show would know. I was asking about
Speaker 1: the balance between knowing the power of being a really
Speaker 1: positive role model just by being there, in the power
Speaker 1: of representation, but also the fact that it brings we've
Speaker 1: seen for you, Brooke, that it also brings a scrutiny,
Speaker 1: a level of vitriol. I mean, a level of let's
Speaker 1: face it, just really awful racism leveled at you. I
Speaker 1: love the way you've expressed it in this notion that
Speaker 1: am I a bit of a sec to be able
Speaker 1: to put myself through this, but knowing that I'm also
Speaker 1: helping if I am here and I'm representing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird because at first I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: this is this isn't like noble and it's really important,
Speaker 2: and you know, I want to be able to share
Speaker 2: our stories and it's important for me to be able
Speaker 2: to express a perspective that isn't especially sort of when
Speaker 2: I first came through not just the Today Show, but
Speaker 2: on Triple J. You know, it was expressing perspectives that
Speaker 2: people really hadn't been exposed to before, even when I
Speaker 2: was in Canberra actually in the press gallery. I think
Speaker 2: it was the first time that someone had been on
Speaker 2: the on the campaign trail. So a lot of the
Speaker 2: time when I was going into these places, it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is important. This feels like something I need to do,
Speaker 2: not just for myself, but for those who sort of
Speaker 2: come after me, and you know, for everyone else, for
Speaker 2: the benefit of Australia as well, Like it's important for
Speaker 2: us to be able to have those conversations. But over time,
Speaker 2: and I think like with the rise of social media,
Speaker 2: it became sort of harder and harder to do in
Speaker 2: a way that felt like I was striking a balance
Speaker 2: that felt genuine you know, where I was genuinely having
Speaker 2: an impact in any kind of conversation, and you know,
Speaker 2: you sort of measured that against how much backlash you
Speaker 2: got on things. So remember the first week that I
Speaker 2: was on the Today Show was when I talked about
Speaker 2: how we celebrate the twenty sixth of January, and you
Speaker 2: know how I kind of didn't really want to do it.
Speaker 2: And I learned really quickly that there are so many
Speaker 2: people who want to deliberately misinterpret things that you say
Speaker 2: because they don't like you well, you know, they don't
Speaker 2: want to understand you. And more than that that there
Speaker 2: are so many people who don't fully engage and sort
Speaker 2: of just get the top line like, oh you don't
Speaker 2: like Australiada, that must mean that you think this. So
Speaker 2: then you get really like quickly categorized and it takes
Speaker 2: you know a lot to sort of develop a fuller
Speaker 2: picture for people to develop a fuller picture of you.
Speaker 2: And so after a while, I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: know that the balance is there for me anymore. You know,
Speaker 2: if it's kind of stacks up like this, if this
Speaker 2: is the reason that I'm doing this, you know, to
Speaker 2: share our perspective, but then this other part hurts so much,
Speaker 2: like this is this is not healthy, Like I don't
Speaker 2: know that this is worth it for me anymore. And
Speaker 2: I don't know, like, you know, I love TV and
Speaker 2: I especially love live TV, so maybe it would be
Speaker 2: something that I kind of come back to. But I
Speaker 2: think there has to be some sort of what you're
Speaker 2: doing is worth it for the amount of things that
Speaker 2: are coming back in, Like it has to be some
Speaker 2: sort of energy trade off or something to get a
Speaker 2: bit woo woo. And for me it kind of felt
Speaker 2: a bit of kilter. But I think it would be
Speaker 2: the same for women, right, Like if you're the only
Speaker 2: woman in a boardroom, or if you're the only woman
Speaker 2: in like a senior management position and you think, oh gosh,
Speaker 2: like I'm having an awful time because of you know,
Speaker 2: these reasons. But it's important for other young women to
Speaker 2: see me here and for me to be able to
Speaker 2: represent them and to make decisions that reflect their best interests.
Speaker 2: At a certain point, you'd be like, I don't know
Speaker 2: if this is helping them as much as it's hurting.
Speaker 1: Me completely, I mean, broke. It makes me sad to
Speaker 1: hear that the that it did take a toll where
Speaker 1: the balance skewed a certain way. And I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask because again, you cite some really interesting research in
Speaker 1: the book where you talk about the fact that in
Speaker 1: terms of media, your former industry, my car and industry,
Speaker 1: that we are actually getting pretty good representation, particularly among
Speaker 1: First Nations people in broadcasting, in terms of cadets and
Speaker 1: coming into the industry. But I'll quote you here. We'll
Speaker 1: see that there's no problem finding talent, the problem is
Speaker 1: in retaining it. Your story would appear to be exhibit A.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a little bit about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course, Like I haven't read the report
Speaker 2: from the ABC. I just sort of got the gist
Speaker 2: of it from some friends and saw, you know, what
Speaker 2: the headlines were and what the media reportage was around it.
Speaker 2: And I think, if I can remember rightly, the part
Speaker 2: that I'm referencing in that particular part is that every
Speaker 2: year they have Indigenous cadets, and it took so long
Speaker 2: for any of them to sort of make it to
Speaker 2: any significant sort of on air role. And I don't
Speaker 2: think that that's an issue with the talent. I think
Speaker 2: it's I think it's an issue with the opportunities that
Speaker 2: are being given and the support that's given. And you know,
Speaker 2: having worked there and having seen the report and what
Speaker 2: people said, I think that there were only maybe a
Speaker 2: couple of people who hadn't experienced some sort of racism
Speaker 2: while they were working there. And look, I don't want
Speaker 2: to lay the boot into the ABC because it is.
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful place for a lot of reasons, but
Speaker 2: you know, there are some challenges like their own in
Speaker 2: any workplace. I think I'm so glad that there are
Speaker 2: more of us now than there ever have been before.
Speaker 2: If I've played any small role in that in any way,
Speaker 2: then I feel incredibly proud.
Speaker 1: Of that.
Speaker 2: You know, even the Beurlow put me on the Today
Speaker 2: Show when that had never been done before, that felt
Speaker 2: like it felt like something that would never ever happen,
Speaker 2: you know, like an aboriginal person on the Today Show.
Speaker 2: That's wild. And then you know, then Channelton did it,
Speaker 2: and then ABC did it, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: it was like a normal thing for them to be
Speaker 2: a person of color on a show in that time slot,
Speaker 2: whereas before it has sort of been like that, you know,
Speaker 2: a bizarre thing to do. Like I remember when they
Speaker 2: first first named me and there was always press around
Speaker 2: it and everyone was like wow, like this is such
Speaker 2: a big deal. And when I explain it to people
Speaker 2: in an international context, like if I explain that to
Speaker 2: someone of here, like what, there have only been white people?
Speaker 2: That's so weird.
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: Do you realize when you remove yourself from the situation,
Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I mean, I guess that is a
Speaker 2: bit weird when you put it like that, And yeah,
Speaker 2: I think what I really want to express is that
Speaker 2: the talent is there, and you know, we're really good
Speaker 2: at recruiting them, we're really good at finding them, but
Speaker 2: we need to just like be able to hold onto them.
Speaker 2: And I think that part of that challenge is, you know,
Speaker 2: mitigating some of the worst of it, like you know,
Speaker 2: what we were talking about before, which is challenging in
Speaker 2: a contemporary context, because how do you know, how do
Speaker 2: you police social media? How do you police trolls? It's
Speaker 2: like a question that none of us really have the
Speaker 2: answer to. But there are things that make it easier.
Speaker 2: And I think the things that make it easier are
Speaker 2: things that we sort of did well on the Today
Speaker 2: Show and I was really well supported, and I had
Speaker 2: the support of my colleagues and the unwavering support of
Speaker 2: my boss, and those things do make it easier. I
Speaker 2: think we've kind of all got a lot of work
Speaker 2: to do in how we work in that space, and
Speaker 2: I think a lot of those programs are being rolled
Speaker 2: back in different parts of the world, which might make
Speaker 2: it more challenging. I don't know. We've certainly had a
Speaker 2: lot more work ahead of us in the coming years
Speaker 2: and decades.
Speaker 1: I think it is so wonderful to think, you know,
Speaker 1: how many people would have woken up every day and
Speaker 1: seen themselves reflected back in some way. That everyone should
Speaker 1: have the right to take that For granted, wherever you
Speaker 1: have come from, whatever wherever you live, whatever your family,
Speaker 1: whatever industry, your parents, it's working, whatever your experience. So
Speaker 1: we would think in Australia in the twenty first century
Speaker 1: that everyone could see themselves reflected back to them in
Speaker 1: their mainstream media. And the power of that is so unbelievable,
Speaker 1: because Brook, I can only imagine what it would have
Speaker 1: potentially meant to you to be a young girl and
Speaker 1: see yourself reflected back to you in mainstream media a
Speaker 1: lot more than was happening at the time.
Speaker 2: I remember, you know, when I was younger, that there
Speaker 2: never even used to be Aboriginal people like in TV
Speaker 2: ads or in magazines. There was no representation whatsoever. And
Speaker 2: I know that it seems kind of try it or
Speaker 2: trivial or whatever to say like it's important for us
Speaker 2: to see ourselves reflected back. But if we like flip
Speaker 2: that the inverse is that if you don't see yourself
Speaker 2: reflected back, or if there is only a certain group
Speaker 2: of people reflected in our mainstream media, or you know,
Speaker 2: the way that we see ourselves, that means that there
Speaker 2: are large sways that are invisible, or that you know
Speaker 2: that we don't think exist, and for Indigenous people, you know,
Speaker 2: given the challenges that we've faced in the first couple
Speaker 2: of hundred years, I think to not exist or to
Speaker 2: not be represented in that way it cuts deeply. But
Speaker 2: it cuts in a different way because it's it's a
Speaker 2: bit of a rasure or it's a bit of denying
Speaker 2: that you you know, you have a right to be
Speaker 2: here or that your place is in this country. And
Speaker 2: so it means more than just being like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: for this magazine spread or for this TV show, we
Speaker 2: need to have a balance of brunettes, people with dark skin,
Speaker 2: people with light skin, because I know that some of
Speaker 2: it kind of feels like that now, and it feels
Speaker 2: like that to me even I'm like, oh yep, tick
Speaker 2: tick tick, We've got all of you know, the things
Speaker 2: going on here. But that's the reason that it's important,
Speaker 2: because if we don't have it, it says to young people,
Speaker 2: and it says to all of us, like, this is
Speaker 2: who we are, this is what we look like. The
Speaker 2: ones that aren't here, they're not represented, they're not actually
Speaker 2: a part of us, and they're they're not only not
Speaker 2: included in conversations, but they are they don't even.
Speaker 1: Exist exactly so well said before I let you go,
Speaker 1: I would love to ask you what you think the
Speaker 1: future might bring for you professionally. As you said, you're
Speaker 1: not ruling out maybe going back to the media, But
Speaker 1: when you finish up at Oxford University, what do you
Speaker 1: think we might see Brooke Bony do next.
Speaker 2: I really don't know. And I say this like hand
Speaker 2: on Hart. I don't have some sort of like secret
Speaker 2: plan and I'm going to come back and pop up
Speaker 2: on another show because people always do that. I swear,
Speaker 2: I don't have any plans. There's no sort of secret thing.
Speaker 2: I loved writing this book so much. I loved it,
Speaker 2: so I would love to do another one. I don't
Speaker 2: have any plans, but I mean I love to study.
Speaker 2: The studying is really amazing. I mean, I know I've
Speaker 2: got exams next week, and when I have to do
Speaker 2: my economics exam, I probably won't think this, but the
Speaker 2: academia is so wonderful. To be able to use your
Speaker 2: brain in a way that you know you never have before,
Speaker 2: to stretch yourself like that is it's such a privilege.
Speaker 2: So I don't I really don't know. If you hear
Speaker 2: of anything good, let me know.
Speaker 1: Well, well, you are coming home to do a book
Speaker 1: tour for all of it, so you know, you never know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you might get a phone call one morning going, okay, Brooke,
Speaker 1: Sarah Arbo has woken up with the flu. Can you
Speaker 1: just come in Carl's hoping you can come sit alongside him,
Speaker 1: so you know you never know, do you?
Speaker 2: Absolutely not? Absolutely not. I'll be like Berla, you are
Speaker 2: dreaming if you think I'm going to wake up at
Speaker 2: quarter past three while in one my holidays. Absolutely not.
Speaker 1: Brook's going to have a phone on mute and she's
Speaker 1: not even going to hear that call.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Brooke.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on the book. It is really fantastic Brooks memoir,
Speaker 1: all of it. It's available via the link in our
Speaker 1: show notes, and of course you can find it at
Speaker 1: your local bookstore. Some people still go to bookstores and
Speaker 1: we love them for that.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so nice to chat to you, Sarah.
Speaker 1: You can find a link in our show notes if
Speaker 1: you'd like to watch this interview with Brooke on YouTube.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 1: let us know and leave a review and make sure
Speaker 1: you're following something to talk about because We'll be back
Speaker 1: with another exclusive guest next week.