WEBVTT - Meeting the Toolbox killer: Candice Fox Pt. 1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:06.840 Detective see aside of life. 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.040 The average person has never exposed her I spent thirty 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:12.680 four years as a cop. For twenty five of those 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.200 years I was catching killers. That's what I did for 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.600 a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.759 just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.560 the world in which I operated. The guests I talk 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.159 to each week have amazing stories from all sides of 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.840 the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.320 the people I talk to. Some of the content and 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.400 language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.800 into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:47.239 as I take you into this world. Most people go 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.240 on honeymoons to relax Kansas. Fox goes to San Quentin 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.840 to hang out with serial killers. She's an award winning 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.560 force of nature I'm happy to call a friend and 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.280 one of the sharpest minds in crime writing. Today we're 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.840 diving into the real life murders that fuel her darkest plots. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:10.320 This is Candace Fox. Candace Fox, Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.039 Hi, Gary, thanks for having me. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.880 Well I'm excited about getting on. We've got a lot 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.000 to talk about. I think our paths first crossed when 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.919 we were or when I was out of the cops 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:26.760 at the writer's festival or whatever. You were the well known, 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.520 established fictional crime writer. Yeah, and I was the unemployed, 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.760 criminally charged ex detective try and make my way in 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:36.400 the media. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.039 I thought to myself, this guy is the best dressed 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.760 guy at this festival. You know, it's a whole bunch 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.000 of fiction writers walking around in hoodies and that kind 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.000 of thing. And you had like the nice shirt and 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.360 the suit and all that. You look great, you're up 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:51.040 on the stage. 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.120 Yeah, well I wasn't. I wasn't trying to make a statement. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.000 That's just how I thought you had to dress. Now, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.720 I just turned up in the casual. 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:01.800 Gift dacks and uggies, you know, where you. 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:03.960 Turn up at that fancy dress party. That's not a 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:05.400 fancy dress party or whatever. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.000 So I dressed like a frog or something. 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.800 I'd never dressed like a frog. Now, last time I 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.639 spoke to you were looking for a home for twelve chickens. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.560 Yeah, that's right. Things have changed. I mean that was 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.119 what forty eight hours ago. Things have changed since I've 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.280 rescued a gigantic muscovy duck and a pekin duck that 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.000 were both dumped at the same park, and somebody's called 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.440 them in, you know, thinking these don't belong here, and 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.360 they don't because they're farm ducks. And I've gotten rid 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.920 of the chickens. I've picked up two fantail pigeons and 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:44.160 seven wood duck ducklings. My daughter loves poultry. She's six 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:49.320 years old and she's had a long fascination with eggs 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.639 and chickens and ducks. So I started out with wires 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.680 doing wildlife rescue, but then we ended up getting chickens 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.480 and ducks and just filling the driveway with them and 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.799 rehome them. It's just so much fun because it's good 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.239 for her because the wildlife bite her and scratch her, 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.639 whereas these ducks and things that don't they're kind of mild. 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.680 Well, given the fact this is a true crime podcast, 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.680 we better put this in perspective. Not only are you 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.440 a renowned fictional crime writer, you've also been working or 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:24.480 volunteer work. I believe it is for wives rescuing wildlife. 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.680 I don't stop well, I need I need something to 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.360 distract me because I can't write from nine to five. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.799 You know, I'll send Violet to school and I'll sit 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.280 down and I'll do a big burst of writing, you know, 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.400 for an hour and a half, and then I need 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.720 to get out and think. So sometimes when I'm driving 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.760 to these rescues, you know, there's a possum stuck in 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.360 a down pipe or something, I'm thinking, what am I 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.520 going to write next when I get home, you know, 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.480 drive out there, pop the possum out of the pipe, 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:55.840 chuck it in a carrier, come home, put it in 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:57.960 the garage because I'll go back and release it tonight 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.400 there's nothing wrong with it, and then hammer the again. 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:01.600 It's like a little refresher. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.400 It seuns like you must have a lot of empathy 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.880 for animals, rescuing them, and I put my detectives hat 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.200 on here. I look at some of your novels and 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:15.120 you go into a very dark place. How do you 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.520 get into the dark dark place when you've got empathy 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.599 so you understand things, But how do you get into 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.080 the dark world that you do when your. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:29.480 Crime not It's I really think that animal rescue shows 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.839 you the best and the worst parts of humanity. You know, 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.400 I've gone out to chicken dumping and there's this, you know, 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.760 there's there's four chickens and they're starved half to death, 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.839 and they're covered in disease and they're super sick, and 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.160 it's a raging hot day. And I think, whoever has 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:52.039 put you in this situation is a bad, bad person, 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.640 you know. But then whoever's reported them and brought me 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.240 out there is dropping everything in their life to help 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:01.640 me wrangle them, you know. And then you take him 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.320 to the vets who are rushing there trying to save 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.880 the lives of these chickens, trying to CPR to this chicken. 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.560 It's the heart of people, And yeah, I get to 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.560 super dark places. I kind of grew up like that. 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:17.039 You know. 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.599 My mother had four kids, and then she adopted two, 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.240 and then she fostered one hundred and fifty five kids 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:25.240 as I was growing up. 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.960 A lot of people coming through your house. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.840 Yeah, Yeah, it was just a madhouse because she did 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.479 the animal rescue as well, and she also loved to 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.960 rescue things off the side of the street. So this 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.920 house was crammed with all of these kids who all 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:44.320 had terribly dark stories as to how they'd gotten there. 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:49.159 My mum is someone who was born without subtlety, so 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.320 she would tell you. She'd say, oh, that kid's uncle's 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.039 been sexually abusing him for the last year and a half, 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.320 and those kids, their parents have just done an armed robbery. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.839 Okay, that makes it. It's because, sadly, the type of 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.400 kids that pass through foster homes might have that backstory 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.240 of growing up in not the perfect, perfect world, not 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.880 the perfect childhood. I know in your book Red Belly Crossing, 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.480 I'm reading that and I've seen them and done a 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.599 lot of things, so there's not much that shocked me. 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:20.360 And you know, you take me to a dark place. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:24.120 I've seen that or heard that before. But there was 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.640 one particular early in the book, and we won't give 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.919 away the storyline of the book, but where a father 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:34.680 comes across his two sons in a car parking with 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.680 their girlfriends as teenagers do at night, stopped them, got 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:43.479 them out, berated the boys, berated the girls, and then 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.640 directed his sons to get back in there and continue 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.760 on what the teenagers do in a park car at 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.839 night while he watches And I thought. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:58.240 That's really icky, that's horrible. Where do you dig up 0:06:58.240 --> 0:06:58.719 this stuff? 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:03.000 Yeah, that's that's real deep character work for me. That's 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:08.159 a lot of contemplation of that father, Arthur and how 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:12.320 he feels about his sons. For Arthur in this novel, 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:18.560 it's all about control and humiliation, and for them it 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.480 was all about escape and fantasy. So Russell and Evan 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.840 are the two teenage boys and they have fixed up 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.720 this car so that they can just have, you know, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.920 a couple of hours of escape from this guy. So 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.520 they're there with these girls and he turns up, of course, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.160 because he's just this malevolent presence in the novel who 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.560 just knows, he knows what they're doing all the time, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.320 and he says to them, you know, you can't get 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.480 anything past me, I know. And in that moment, I 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.320 was thinking to myself, you know, how would they try 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.200 to escape? What would they do with themselves? And once 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:58.800 he's caught them, how could he humiliate them as much 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.840 as possible, just you know, spun the wheel of things 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:05.840 that he could do to them. And Yeah, sometimes it's 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.600 things that I just come up with, and sometimes it's 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.880 stories I've heard from people. I pride myself on being 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:17.040 someone that anyone can talk to. And you know, my 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:18.960 husband says to me. If you get on a train 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.800 and there's eighty people in the carriage, but one of 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:25.040 them is like a half psycho. He's been in prison 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.480 half his life. He was accused of murder and he's 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.360 now homeless. He will wander through the carriage and he 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.160 will find you, and he will sit next to you 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.040 and tell you his life story. Like I just attract, 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:41.560 you know, talkers, and it must be that I'm listening 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.920 and making them feel validated, and then they just keep going. 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.000 They keep going because I'll listen to anyone. And I've 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:49.640 had whole novels inspired. 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:50.600 You know. 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.800 I wrote a novel called Devil's Kitchen and it was 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.520 inspired by these builders who came to my backyard. They're 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.559 building a deck in my backyard. There's four builders and 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.120 just listening to them, the way they talk to each other, 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.960 the way they all henpeck to the apprentice. Everyone in 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.640 that group had their role and the way that the 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.880 guys would all tense up and everything when the boss 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.360 Matt was coming. You know, they get a call and 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.160 they go mad, I'll be here in ten minutes, put 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.520 that away, do this, do that, And I'm. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.080 Just watching and watching and a story can evolve from 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.400 that in the dynamics of that group and the power 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.960 plays and bullies and all that. Yeah, it's interesting. But 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:31.680 in terms of writing, you told me so much about 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.680 that person at that particular point in time. If he's 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.280 prepared to go that far, I wonder what else he 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.480 would do. And yeah, very very descriptive. But I got 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:46.040 to say, I'm thinking, oh, like, that's taking that too far. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.520 What about breaking it up? 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:50.920 Like in a crime the way I look at it, 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.240 You've got you've got the offender, you've got the victims, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.520 and you've got the police. Are you looking for something 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:58.720 in each of those characters. 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:03.680 Yeah. When I'm writing, you know, someone like Arthur the villain, 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:09.040 I'm trying to channel all of the seriously vile people 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.839 that I have even known, and things that they've said, 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.480 and how they've undermined their own children, you know, and 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:21.360 the how do you display that callousness? You know. So 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.000 one of the worst people I've ever met in my 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.200 life was an actual serial killer that I went and 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.480 I sat with him, and I did that because I 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.320 had written twelve novels at that time. So I've written 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.800 about twelve killers, but I've never actually met one sat 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:37.360 with one. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:39.680 I want you to tell us about that, because that 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.959 I won't say funny because there's nothing funny about but 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:44.200 that is a little bit funny. 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:45.760 And how naive you were. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.920 Oh yeah, the toolbox killer, like they are. Well, because 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.120 there was two of them, wasn't there. Yeah you met 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:52.600 what was it. 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.040 Lawrence Lauren Vitecker. 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:54.840 Yeah, I did. 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.160 So tell the story, tell the crimes, and tell the 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.320 story because people will just be shocked. This is what 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.720 you do for research for a book. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.640 Yeah. I wasn't researching it for a particular book. It 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.280 was just one of those experiences that I thought, I'm 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.280 going to go and do that and we'll see what 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.400 it feels. Do that a lot in my life. So 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.000 I was watching a documentary. I was living in LA 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.640 because I had TV and film stuff that I was doing, 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.760 and then we're just my husband and I just love LA. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:24.920 So we're just living there and having all sorts of 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.880 experiences there. And I watched this documentary and I stopped 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.360 what I was doing. Because I'm a multitasker, I stopped 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.760 and I just watched this thing. This is the worst 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.520 crime I think I've ever heard of. These two guys 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.679 were driving around La in the late seventies, and they 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:45.520 were picking up teenagers and taking them in a van 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.920 into the mountains, the San Gabriel mountains, and they were 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.199 doing horrific things to them for up to three days 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:58.960 at a time, and then throwing their bodies off the. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.720 Canyons, basically torturing them with tools. 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.920 Yeah, with tools and pliers and screwdrivers and ice picks 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.599 and stuff. And they're victims, are you know, thirteen? And 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.480 one of the girls was walking home from church, you know, 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.079 and they've picked her up and they've done this. And 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.199 so I just went down this deep spiral of who 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:25.079 are these men? And I sort of through the court 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.720 documents and that kind of thing. I found that Lawrence. 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.320 There was Roy and Lawrence, and Lawrence was sort of 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.160 the ringleader. I felt like he was the one that 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.880 was in control. Certainly Roy was saying it was all 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:42.640 Lawrence was idea. So Lawrence was in San Quentin on 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.000 death row, and that was only an hour and a 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.600 half away. So I said to Tim, I think I'm 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.439 going to write to Lawrence and say, you know, I 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.319 have some questions that i'd like you to answer, and 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.920 if he says yes, I'd like to go and visit 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.320 him because I want to look at him. And Tim said, 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.640 you'll have fun, you know, I'll stay here if you go, 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.880 And so I did that. I wrote to Lawrence and 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:11.520 in that first letter, I'm starting the first letter, and 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.920 this is where the moral gray territory will come into 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.679 it later with red belly crossing and what inspired that. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:21.880 But I wrote, dear Lawrence, and then I went, oh, dear, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:28.600 like dear Lawrence and Lawrence, and I just thought, this 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.960 guy is clearly a psychopath. He's gonna manipulate me and 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.199 lie to me the entire time, you know. So I'm 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.679 going to be brutally honest. And I said in that 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.240 first letter, I've just watched the documentary about you. I 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:44.800 have the feeling that you might be like an absolute monster. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:50.120 Are you interested in trying to bring my bring more 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.280 complexity to my understanding of you, because you seem to 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.120 be just the worst person on the planet. And I said, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.600 please understand, there is no romantic underpinnings to this whatsoever. 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.840 I'm not interested in you romantically. And I'm really not. 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:07.120 If you're going to come to me and say I 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.400 didn't do it, it wasn't me, don't bother because I 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:11.960 really I want you to be accountable. 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.000 So interesting, interesting approach. But I understand why you put 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:16.600 those barriers. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.760 Yeah, well, you know, because I don't want to waste 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:19.960 my time going there. 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:21.440 It wasn't me. You don't understand. 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.280 There's nothing more boring than hearing someone plead that they're 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:27.960 sitting in there. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.760 So he wrote back and he said, yeah, sure, great, 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.560 Come you know what else am I? John? I'm sitting 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:35.560 around in a cage or twenty three hours a day, 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:37.360 you know, and then for one hour a day I 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.440 go to a bigger cage. Come. So I filled out 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:42.560 all of the stuff I'm supposed to fill out and 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:44.920 I sent it off. And what they give you when 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:49.240 you visit San Quentin is the visitor's handbook, okay, which 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.280 is not a book at all. It's an a four 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.880 sheet of paper, one sided, three columns, and it says 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.680 this is you know, this is the prison, and this 0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.560 is where it is, and this is where you should park. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.120 And then yeah, it says this is what you should 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:06.160 and shouldn't wear. So don't wear denim, don't wear ten 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.480 because the prisoners wear denim and the guards wear ten. 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:11.960 And if there's a riot, you know, we're going to 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.360 need to know who to shoot, and don't wear an 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:20.360 underwire bra because you'll be X ray and that kind 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.440 of thing. And column three was like, you're allowed to 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.880 bring in, you know, twenty dollars in one dollar notes only, 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.000 you can have ten a four sheets of paper. You 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.320 can have twenty photographs and bring everything in a plastic 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.560 bag so we can see through it. And then there 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.360 was like a little line that said, if an inmate 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.200 takes you hostage, we will not negotiate for you. 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:43.360 So that's a big disclaimer. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.560 Yeah, like no monkey business with the you know, oh, 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.320 the hostage, you know, none of that. So I went, okay, 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.520 it doesn't say anything about how the visit's going to go, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.120 but I imagine it's just he's getting to be a 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.080 screen with a screen and the phone and all that, 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.040 like you see in the movies. So I'll get there 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.440 and I go through all the levels of security and 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.840 the guards are really stern, and I had like a 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.800 V neck back on my shirt that went pretty low, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.520 like mid back, I guess, and they were like, no, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.400 you'll have to wear a jacket over that. That's too 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.360 provocative and all this. I was like okay. So I 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.280 went back to my car, I got my jacket, and 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.360 they said stay on the line. Follow the line, do 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.400 not go anywhere else in the prison. You know. I'm 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.240 walking along this line and there's dogs and barking and 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.240 fences and stuff. Then then I got to death row 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.200 and maybe I go in the door clank shut, and 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.040 there's no one telling me what to do. I was like, okay. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.600 So I see all of the phones with the windows, 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:42.920 and there was a guard just standing there and he's 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:47.160 like picking his fingernails, and I said, Hi, my name's Candas. 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.320 I'm sorry. I don't know what to do. I'm supposed 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.640 to be meeting Laurence Bittaka, you know, the serial killer, 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.360 you know him, meet him here at eight o'clock. And 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.880 I don't know which window is mine. And the guard goes, oh, 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.360 you know, and and in this thing. I said, actually, 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:04.840 as well, while I'm at it, can I borrow a 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:06.440 pencil because I got my paper but I don't have 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.000 a pencil. He goes, oh, yeah, well you're gonna have 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:09.960 this pencil. I saw his pencil. He said, you're gonna 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:14.399 have this pencil. And no Lawrence will be He's not 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:16.439 one of the ones with the phones. He'll be in 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.119 that cage there, and I went, oh, oh, he's going 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:20.960 to be in the cage. And there was this floor 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.760 to ceiling shark cage style thing with steel mesh and 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.000 bulletproof glass all the way around. There's a whole row, 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:30.480 two rows of them with an aisle. I said, oh, 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.040 he'll be in there. Where am I going to be? 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:37.000 And the guard said in there and I said at 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.920 the same time, and the guard was like yes at 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.639 the same time, and he's like, didn't you know, And 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.160 I'm like, no, I didn't know, and he said, didn't 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.280 you read the visitor's handbook. I said, that's not a book, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.440 it's an a foor sheet of paper. And I said, 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.760 nothing about this, you know. And at this point that 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.840 they're leading Lawrence out because then he's all cuffed up 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.199 and everything, and I didn't want to be rude and 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:00.920 be like making a fuss, like I don't want to 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.760 get in a cage with you type of thing, because 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.360 this is like the start of the relationship, I suppose 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.320 I don't want to, and so I just went off. 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.760 And so they unlocked the cage and they put him in, 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.399 and he's cuffed and the guard said, all right, in 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:16.640 your hop. So I got in and we both sat 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:18.800 on our plastic chairs and we were sitting closer than 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:20.920 you and I are sitting now, like there was a 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:26.040 gap like this between half a yeah, yeah, yeah. And 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.520 he sits down and I was saying, oh, thank god, 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.560 he's cuffed, you know. So then he turned sideways in 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.200 his chair and he stuck his wrists through a hole 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.359 and they uncuffed him. And they while that's happening, they've 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.199 shut the grille on the cage and they're threading a 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.919 pet a padlock through it and snapping it shut. And 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.800 I'm watching all of this happen like this, and then 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.200 the guards went around the corner. 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.719 So no one's getting in there. 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.639 And I was like, well, you know, and but like 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.240 I said, I feel like one of my skills as 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:02.959 a writer as I can talk to anyone. So I 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.440 was just matching his energy and he was like, oh, 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.199 so how are you going? And I'm going fine, but 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:10.400 how are you? You know? I like what you've done 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.119 with the place. It's very industrial chic, you know. And 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.760 but then in terms of like nerves, I just started 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:21.280 like word vomit. And I was just like well, I'm 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:23.439 kind of surprised that this is happening. Actually, you know 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.400 that we're in here and the cage together. And he said, yeah, 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.520 it's full contact visit. Didn't you It's in a handbook, 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:34.640 isn't it. It's not handbook. And then he said, yeah, 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.440 it's a full contact visit. We can touch each other 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.880 if you want. And I was like, okay. He goes, 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:42.480 I'll put my hand out. Will you shake my hand? 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.600 And then I was like, oh will I though, you know, 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.359 because these are the hands. I'm looking at the hands 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:54.119 that tortured and murdered the girls, you know, at least 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:59.040 five and I and so I shook his hand. His 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.920 hand was ice cold and super soft. I was like, oh, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.160 like full bodies shiver. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.400 How do you feel like with that? Because I know 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.879 I've sat opposite serial killers and just evil human beings 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.160 and when they offer the hand, and invariably if I'm 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:19.920 sitting there trying to get a rapport and all that, 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.440 and you shake the hand, and what you were going 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.960 through and as a police officer, at least there was 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.720 a build up to by the time I'm sitting opposite 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:31.600 like that going in there. 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:32.880 That must have freaked you out. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:39.919 I was going in thinking this is incredibly moral gray 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.840 territory because one of the any joy yeah and attention. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.800 And I'm listening to him, and you know, I'm thinking 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:53.920 to myself, if he asks me to buy him commissary 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.600 as payment for this, what am I going to do? 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.240 Am I going to buy this guy muffin? Does he 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:06.320