Speaker 1: Gay.
Speaker 2: Congratulations to your family. Take me to the moment where
Speaker 2: you heard your brother, Julian Assandra was about to be freed.
Speaker 3: Where where are you? What were you doing?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 1: I've been chatting to Julian in the lead up to this,
Speaker 1: you know, we're speaking every day. Julian called me and
Speaker 1: just before he had to get into a van to
Speaker 1: travel to the airport, and he actually I was just
Speaker 1: arriving in France and I was waiting for my bags
Speaker 1: at the carousel and chatting to Julian about you know what.
Speaker 1: He was getting ready for the next morning where he
Speaker 1: had to essentially be snuck out of the prison. He
Speaker 1: had to wait for quite a few hours inside one
Speaker 1: of these prisoner transport vans before waiting inside a lounge
Speaker 1: at Stanstete Airport for hours on end there as well,
Speaker 1: before getting on a plane. One of the interesting things
Speaker 1: that Julian's plane is the second most tracked plane on
Speaker 1: flight Tracker. It might have actually become the first most
Speaker 1: tracked plane, but the plane he's in competition with at
Speaker 1: the moment is Taylor Swift's jet. So it's the people
Speaker 1: who watching Taylor Swift jet out numbered the people watching
Speaker 1: Julian's jet, but Julian's jet is a close second on
Speaker 1: the flight trackers.
Speaker 2: It's pretty bizarre, isn't it.
Speaker 3: What was the reason?
Speaker 2: What was all the secrecy about, you know, being snuck
Speaker 2: out of the prison at two am? What's that about?
Speaker 1: Well, until this deal was done, and until Julian signed
Speaker 1: before a judge, it was a very delicate thing that
Speaker 1: could have become unraveled at any time. And so keeping
Speaker 1: it secret as long as we could meant that it
Speaker 1: wasn't open to influence from outside parties that could have
Speaker 1: brought the whole deal down.
Speaker 4: Huh.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that was a necessary element to
Speaker 1: keep that secrecy. I had to keep it secret from
Speaker 1: some family and loved ones. So who I'm not so happy,
Speaker 1: but or very surprised. I mean, I spoke to my
Speaker 1: daughter and she said, oh, Dad, did you know about this?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, yes, yes, Rosen. She is actually over
Speaker 1: the moon. She'd be like, I can't believe we can
Speaker 1: go and see Julian and my cousins. She was over
Speaker 1: the moon and she ear the news as well.
Speaker 2: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlyn McGhee. This is seven am.
Speaker 2: When gab A sounds jumped on our zoom call. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure I've ever seen him with such a big smile.
Speaker 2: His brother, Julian Asangi, is back on home soil after
Speaker 2: more than a decade in exile and in prison. Slowly
Speaker 2: we're starting to learn more about how this extraordinary deal
Speaker 2: between Australia and the US came together and the secret
Speaker 2: midnight maneuvers to get safely out of the UK. Today,
Speaker 2: Gabe Shipton takes this inside the last seventy two hours,
Speaker 2: But first the Saturday Paper's Mike Second on how it
Speaker 2: all unfolded. That's after the break, Mike, Julian los angele
Speaker 2: have landed in Australia a free man by the time
Speaker 2: our listeners here this What do we know about how
Speaker 2: this has come about?
Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, ash, not a lot at this stage.
Speaker 3: As someone in the government put it to me when
Speaker 3: I was trying to find out more about this, they
Speaker 3: said they didn't want to begin their victory lap as
Speaker 3: they described it, until the process was done and Assange
Speaker 3: was safe. So you know, they've acknowledged that the process
Speaker 3: is in train, but they're not saying much more than that.
Speaker 3: What we do know is that around two am on
Speaker 3: Monday in Belmarsh Prison, Assange was woken up by the
Speaker 3: guards and he was escorted out into a secure vehicle
Speaker 3: to transfer him to an airport to a plane. The
Speaker 3: first world knew was when Wiki Leaks, the organization he started,
Speaker 3: posted a video of him boarding that plane, and subsequent
Speaker 3: to that it was quickly revealed that the US Justice
Speaker 3: Department had offered a deal which would see him plead
Speaker 3: guilty to just one count conspiring to unlawfully obtain and
Speaker 3: disseminate classified information, but that under that deal he would
Speaker 3: be sentenced but only to the time served already in Belmarsh,
Speaker 3: so effectively he would be free to walk after that.
Speaker 3: So he got on the plane in the UK it
Speaker 3: was an Australian government charted plane, and then on to
Speaker 3: the US territory of Saipan in the middle of the
Speaker 3: Pacific Ocean, where he could plead guilty in front of
Speaker 3: a US judge.
Speaker 1: He arrived just under an hour ago and he's expected
Speaker 1: at this court to face court here at nine am
Speaker 1: local time, which is the same time as Easton standard.
Speaker 4: Jared austra comments he.
Speaker 3: Was walking into a US court alongside the Australian Ambassador
Speaker 3: of the US Kevin Rudd, and the UK High Commissioner
Speaker 3: Stephen Smith to plead guilty to that one count. Interestingly,
Speaker 3: he didn't offer it meekly either. There was a long
Speaker 3: pause when he was asked whether he accepted that he
Speaker 3: was guilty of the charge, and then he explained to
Speaker 3: the judge that he was entering the guilty plea because,
Speaker 3: as he said, quoting working as a journalist, I encouraged
Speaker 3: my source to provide information that was said to be
Speaker 3: classified in order to publish that information. And he went
Speaker 3: on to say I believed the First Amendment protected that activity.
Speaker 3: I believe the First Amendment and the Espionage Act are
Speaker 3: in contradiction. His legal representative then jumped in to make
Speaker 3: it absolutely clear that he was nonetheless pleading guilty, and
Speaker 3: the explanation was given that he was pleading guilty because
Speaker 3: fighting the case before the courts would be challenging.
Speaker 5: It is appropriate, though, for this fight to end, and
Speaker 5: it is appropriate for the judge, as she did today,
Speaker 5: to determine that no additional incarceration of mister Assigne would
Speaker 5: be fair, would be appropriate, and it is time for
Speaker 5: him to be reunited with his family.
Speaker 2: So Mike, Juliana Sandra might be free, but he's still
Speaker 2: accepted a deal that involved admitting guilt to this really
Speaker 2: serious espionage charge. So what sort of precedent does that set.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this is in a way kind of
Speaker 3: a show trial played out on a very small stage
Speaker 3: in the middle of the Pacific. So what the deal
Speaker 3: does is that it sets a practical precedent that a
Speaker 3: publisher can be convicted under the Espionage Act in the US.
Speaker 3: And it's an outcome that media rights organizations have long feared.
Speaker 3: So no doubt it will have a chilling effect on
Speaker 3: those who would reveal uncomfortable truths about the conduct of government. Interestingly,
Speaker 3: I think, and I would not as others have, that
Speaker 3: the US authorities have had considerable difficulty in balancing the
Speaker 3: Espionage Act against the First Amendment. You know, the administration
Speaker 3: wanted to pursue Assange, but didn't. It did happen under
Speaker 3: the Trump administration that charges were laid, but notably, they've
Speaker 3: only ever gone after Assange, And as we all know,
Speaker 3: he had partners in publishing a lot of that information.
Speaker 3: You know, some of the biggest papers in the world.
Speaker 3: You know, the New York Times, The Guardian are the
Speaker 3: news organizations in Europe. We'll see how it progresses from here.
Speaker 2: This is a huge win for Australia that our Prime
Speaker 2: Minister stood up to Allie the United States and demanded
Speaker 2: the return of an Australian citizen and Julian came home today.
Speaker 6: If you look at if you look at the whole
Speaker 6: range of people who've been to the United States, I'm
Speaker 6: surprised that some of it was missed by the people
Speaker 6: in this room, some of the visits, but not up
Speaker 6: to me to indicate that. Go back and have a
Speaker 6: look at some diaries and who's traveled to the United
Speaker 6: States in recent months.
Speaker 3: Most importantly, I think he's been reunited with his wife, Stella.
Speaker 4: It took millions of people.
Speaker 1: It took.
Speaker 4: People working behind the scenes, people protesting on the streets
Speaker 4: for days and weeks and months and years, and we
Speaker 4: achieved it.
Speaker 3: Julian's wife, Stella Assange has said they will still seek
Speaker 3: a pardon because of these concerns the journalists around the
Speaker 3: world could be open to espionage charges.
Speaker 4: Julian wanted me to sincerely thank everyone. He wanted to
Speaker 4: be here. But you have to understand what he's been through.
Speaker 4: He needs time, he needs to recuperate, and this is
Speaker 4: a process. I ask you please to give us face,
Speaker 4: to give us privacy, to find our place, to let
Speaker 4: our family.
Speaker 1: Be a family.
Speaker 4: Before he can speak again. At a time of his.
Speaker 3: Choosing, there are questions about his future. I guess will
Speaker 3: he publish again, Will he continue to pursue these activities
Speaker 3: that have had such dire consequences for him? What will
Speaker 3: he do now? You know, will he just settle back
Speaker 3: into family life? You have to think that, given the
Speaker 3: frenetic pursuit of what he sees is the truth in
Speaker 3: the past, that won't be an easy adjustment for him
Speaker 3: to make. So, you know, obviously these answers will come
Speaker 3: down the track, But right now it's a huge moment
Speaker 3: for him and his family, including people like his brother
Speaker 3: Gabriel Shipton, who we're just overjoyed that we finally have
Speaker 3: Julian free.
Speaker 2: After the break. What Gabriel Shipton hopes his brother does next. Gabe,
Speaker 2: have you had a chance yet to chat to your
Speaker 2: brother since he's walked down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't. We've exchanged some texts, but it's all
Speaker 1: been it's all been pretty functional. At the moment, no
Speaker 1: reflections just yet. So yeah, as I said, we're really
Speaker 1: focused on getting him home intact and safe and sound
Speaker 1: and making sure that all the logistics are sorted and yeah,
Speaker 1: but be looking forward to kicking back and having a
Speaker 1: view with him sometime in the next few weeks. So
Speaker 1: it would be good.
Speaker 2: So talk to me a little bit more about what's
Speaker 2: been involved in this, because you kind of alluded to
Speaker 2: it there that you've been chatting to about the details
Speaker 2: as all these sort of puzzle pieces fell into place,
Speaker 2: How did this all unfold, What kind of background maneuvering
Speaker 2: was going on.
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a huge global campaign. I think
Speaker 1: it's important to acknowledge that this is the pointy end
Speaker 1: of a very long campaign that many millions of people
Speaker 1: have been working on, and acknowledge that work, that political work,
Speaker 1: as well as the work of the lawyers, and as
Speaker 1: well as the work of you know, the Australian government
Speaker 1: who have been able to negotiate this deal along with
Speaker 1: Julian's lawyers. But I think in terms of all the
Speaker 1: little bits and pieces, all the little negotiations that had
Speaker 1: to have this deal come together, that was all done
Speaker 1: by Julian's lawyers and the diplomatic efforts of the Australian government.
Speaker 1: I think the Australian government has pulled off They've pulled
Speaker 1: off a miracle. Basically, they've managed to satisfy the intelligence
Speaker 1: community and the National Security, Department of Justice, but also
Speaker 1: secure Julian's freedom. So you had James Clapper coming out
Speaker 1: today saying that the intelligence community is satisfied that they've
Speaker 1: got their pound of flesh with the time served and
Speaker 1: this Espionage Act conviction, but Julian's also free. So I
Speaker 1: think an incredible balancing act that's been pulled off by
Speaker 1: the Austrian diplomats as well as Julian's lawyers. And in
Speaker 1: terms of these little bits and pieces that were being negotiated,
Speaker 1: like going to this district in the Northern Mariana Islands,
Speaker 1: that was one of the key pieces that Julian not
Speaker 1: go to the United States, the mainland United States, and
Speaker 1: they figured out this neat solution where he could go
Speaker 1: to this location on the way home, plead guilty before
Speaker 1: a judge, have that plea accepted, and then just fly
Speaker 1: six hours down to Canberra. So it's those little bits
Speaker 1: and pieces that were organized and I think really made
Speaker 1: this deal acceptable to Julian and the national security of
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice.
Speaker 2: So, given all its happens and the huge toll that
Speaker 2: it's taken on Julian and your family and his family,
Speaker 2: in the end, was it all worth it?
Speaker 3: Do you think?
Speaker 1: Well? I think I'm not a big believer in regrets.
Speaker 1: I think, really you have to look back at Julian's
Speaker 1: record and the record at Wiki Leaks, what they exposed,
Speaker 1: and I think it speaks for itself. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a historical record that has changed the lives for the
Speaker 1: better of many millions of people around the world. People
Speaker 1: have been able to educate themselves on what their governments
Speaker 1: are doing in their name. They've been able to make
Speaker 1: decisions that actually better their lives in their elections. Wars
Speaker 1: have been ended, The Iraq War came to an end
Speaker 1: based on one Wiki League's document. So I think really
Speaker 1: should ask the people whose lives this has affected the
Speaker 1: most of what they think about what Julian did. And
Speaker 1: I think there'll be a resounding show of support for
Speaker 1: Julian and that work because of their lives. How the
Speaker 1: lives of normal people have been affected by Julian's work.
Speaker 2: Just going back a little bit, was there a moment
Speaker 2: where you realize that this guy that you've grown up with,
Speaker 2: your brother, your older brother, is suddenly not just your
Speaker 2: older brother anymore. Is now this character Julian Hassand where
Speaker 2: was the tipping point or the turning point for you?
Speaker 1: Probably I think in two thousand and eight that was
Speaker 1: when they published InformATE. WikiLeaks published information a corruption report
Speaker 1: on the Kenyan government, and it led to a change,
Speaker 1: a change of government in Kenya, and some of the
Speaker 1: people who were working with Julian wound up dead. It
Speaker 1: was at that point I sort of understood how this
Speaker 1: invention that WikiLeaks was, that this invention that Julian made,
Speaker 1: and how it really threatened the powerful and made powerful
Speaker 1: people very very scared and the lengths that they will
Speaker 1: go to to protect themselves. And that's probably when I
Speaker 1: realized the impact that WikiLeaks would have on the world.
Speaker 1: But Julian's always just been my brother, you know, like
Speaker 1: I never never really go and say, oh, you did
Speaker 1: a great job there and things like that. You know,
Speaker 1: we're all just having a laugh and making jokes and
Speaker 1: talking about what we can do next, and how I
Speaker 1: can help him in the campaign to get him out.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's our relationship. And yeah, I think you know,
Speaker 1: with your family members, you're always they always have that
Speaker 1: familiarity and you know that exists, still exists.
Speaker 2: So how does Julian Assandra's story unfold from here? What
Speaker 2: do you think he's going to do next?
Speaker 1: I think he'll enjoy some time outside of a two
Speaker 1: by three meters prison cell for a bit with his family,
Speaker 1: having a swim in the ocean. I'm sure he's looking
Speaker 1: forward to feeling some of that, maybe getting some burnt,
Speaker 1: you know, something like that, feeling the sand in his toes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's almost time to celebrate really that he's Once he
Speaker 1: lands and is on home soil, then that's done and
Speaker 1: he's safe and sound, which is pretty incredible after such
Speaker 1: a long time have been detained in the United Kingdom
Speaker 1: fourteen years, five years in a maximum security prison. I
Speaker 1: just can't imagine what it's like for Julian after spending
Speaker 1: so long in a two x three meters sell to
Speaker 1: be walking around out in the open under the sunshine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty incredible feeling.
Speaker 2: Gabe, I love our podcast, but the one thing I
Speaker 2: hate about it is that people can't see your smile
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I've been smiling. I don't usually smile on interviews,
Speaker 1: but I've had the you know, I've been able to
Speaker 1: smile and just say thank you to everybody for the
Speaker 1: last thirty six hours, you know, which I've been enjoying
Speaker 1: doing in all the interviews that I've done. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been a long road and great relief that we're
Speaker 1: here and that Julian can be free.
Speaker 2: Congratulations, and I really wish you all the best enjoying
Speaker 2: this next moment as a family. Thanks so much for
Speaker 2: your time, Gabe.
Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks and talk to you soon.
Speaker 2: Also in the news today, Prime Minister Anthony Albernezi has
Speaker 2: revealed his Our senator Fatima Payman not attend the rest
Speaker 2: of Labour's caucus meetings before the winter break after she
Speaker 2: crossed the floor and voted against her Labor colleagues and
Speaker 2: for a Green's motion to recognize the state of Palestine.
Speaker 2: Labor Party rules, unlike those of other political parties, mean
Speaker 2: members can be expelled if they cross the floor and
Speaker 2: vote against their own party. And Australia's monthly inflation rate
Speaker 2: has increased to its highest level this year, rising to
Speaker 2: four percent. The rises increase the looming risk that the
Speaker 2: Reserve Bank could now decide to raise rates instead of
Speaker 2: bringing them down, which is something many had a participated
Speaker 2: earlier this year. It's all from the team at seven
Speaker 2: am for today. My name's Ashlin McGhee. Thanks for your company.
Speaker 2: I'll see you again tomorrow