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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Today I spoke the former Miss Australia, Felicia Damige. You

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Speaker 1: might think how and why did a former Miss Australia

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Speaker 1: find herself on a podcast called I Catch Killers. I

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Speaker 1: wondered that too, But there was something in Felicia Dna

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Speaker 1: that attracted her to the bad guys. We talked about

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Speaker 1: a life growing up with immigrant parents supporting an alcoholic father,

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Speaker 1: and how she was attracted to the bright lights of

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Speaker 1: King's Cross. Felicia tells us what it was like being

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Speaker 1: a bikey wag living with a bikey who became addicted

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Speaker 1: and was cooking mefan fair. The means also being chased

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Speaker 1: around the house with a loaded shotgun, being strangled, and

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Speaker 1: a whole lot more. We also talked about the high

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Speaker 1: life she was living when money was no object, designer

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Speaker 1: clothes and accessories, along with flash restaurants. That was the

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Speaker 1: first relationship, but she wasn't finished with the bad guys.

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Speaker 1: Her next partner was also a drug dealer, and that

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Speaker 1: relationship led to a world completely unraveling. She was severely

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Speaker 1: injured in a tactical police raid, arrested and charged. Felicia

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Speaker 1: also told me why she has a tattoo that says

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Speaker 1: fuck the police, and what she is doing now. It's

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Speaker 1: an interesting chat for sure, Felicia Jamisee, welcome to I

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Gary.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever think when you're a partner of a

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Speaker 1: member of an outlaw motorcycle gang that you'd be sitting

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Speaker 1: down having a chat with a former cop?

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Speaker 2: Definitely not, definitely not. That was probably the last thing

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Speaker 2: I would have expected. But a lot of things that

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Speaker 2: have happened in my life have been very unexpected, so

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Speaker 2: I always say, you know what expect the unexpected.

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Speaker 1: It's funny how life turns out. I never thought starting

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Speaker 1: a true crime podcast, i'd be sitting down speaking to

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Speaker 1: a former Miss Australia.

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Speaker 2: So, well, you're a lucky day, Gary.

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Speaker 1: You never know what's around the corner. I've spent the

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Speaker 1: weekend reading your book Accessory, and I've got to say

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting read, very raw. How it feel writing

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Speaker 1: the book?

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Speaker 2: It was pretty cathartic, to be honest. It was difficult.

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Speaker 2: It was more challenging mentally and emotionally than what I

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Speaker 2: thought it would be initially. But I think that's like

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Speaker 2: most tasks that you take on, especially something you haven't

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Speaker 2: done before. She'd never written a memoir before. I do

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Speaker 2: do some writing, but not to that extent. So it

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Speaker 2: was very grueling and very emotionally taxing, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of things came to the forefront of my mind that

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Speaker 2: I hadn't touched on or thought about for years. There

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Speaker 2: was also a lot of things in there that I

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Speaker 2: felt I had dealt with. But when we actually spoke

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Speaker 2: about it and Aaron and I sat down and started

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Speaker 2: writing it together. I thought, hang on a minute, there's

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Speaker 2: still some work to be done, some grief work, you know,

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Speaker 2: some trauma work. There was still a lot of things

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Speaker 2: that were unresolved for me. So I'm happy I've got

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Speaker 2: the privilege an opportunity to kind of go through that

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Speaker 2: process again and you know, work on all those unresolved issues.

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Speaker 1: Well, it makes you take account of everything that's happened

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Speaker 1: in your life. Doesn't when you're sitting down and writing

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Speaker 1: in the memoir, playing the little that I go to say.

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Speaker 1: I started reading, I wasn't sure where it was going

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Speaker 1: to take me, but I felt sympathy for your father, Yuri. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about it. But he battled alcohol, I

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Speaker 1: think in the book that covered his demise, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was a strong, capable man and then what he

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Speaker 1: was reduced to because of his addiction to alcohol. But

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Speaker 1: also another interesting aspect was, and I've seen this before

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Speaker 1: with friends and people I've met in this environment with

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Speaker 1: immigrant parents, sometimes the trauma's passed down and people don't

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Speaker 1: realize and you look at the life that they come

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Speaker 1: and then your parents from Russia and what they went

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Speaker 1: through to settle over here. It's quite an amazing story,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And you find that with a lot

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Speaker 2: of families who've come to Australia that there is that

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Speaker 2: intergenerational trauma that exists there. And also on my mother's side,

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Speaker 2: my mother has an Indigenous background and there's intergenerational trauma

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Speaker 2: there for my grandmother being on a mission, the stolen generation.

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Speaker 2: There's so many different aspects that are passed down that

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Speaker 2: you don't really think about or realize until you do

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Speaker 2: that life indoventory and you take stock, yeah, of those

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Speaker 2: events and how they've impacted your childhood and then you

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Speaker 2: into the future.

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Speaker 1: Well, it passes on to generations, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: we fully appreciate that because sometimes we think it's happened

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Speaker 1: in the past. Your life was different, you grew up

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Speaker 1: in a different environment, But the family structure and the

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Speaker 1: emotions are shaped by the environment in which your parents

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Speaker 1: grew up on their parents before them.

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Speaker 2: Completely true. And even with my partner Dean, his father

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Speaker 2: was an orphan from Italy and came over here on

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Speaker 2: a boat, and there's a lot of trauma in obviously

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Speaker 2: being an orphan and coming to a new country on

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Speaker 2: a boat, and then being adopted out to two Aussie

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Speaker 2: parents and you're from a completely different country. And there

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Speaker 2: was a lot of things that went on in Dean's

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Speaker 2: father's childhood that were very similar to URI's childhood. And

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Speaker 2: then Dean's father actually ended up in Partridge prison, and

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Speaker 2: then the intergenerational stuff comes down, and then Dean ended

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Speaker 2: up in prison, and then I ended up with charges.

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Speaker 2: So you can kind of see on a really really

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Speaker 2: basic level, how there's that trickle down effect. And I

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Speaker 2: will never say it's an excuse, so I don't really

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Speaker 2: believe in excuses, but it's a reason, and we have

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Speaker 2: to know the reason behind why things happened to be

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Speaker 2: able to correct, change, solve.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you on that. I honestly believe we're going

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Speaker 1: to understand what the root cause of the problem is

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Speaker 1: quite often. I'm also going to ask you why you've

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Speaker 1: got fuck the Police tattooed? But that was in your book.

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Speaker 1: I haven't dolt that.

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Speaker 2: Can you read Russian?

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Speaker 1: Gary, No, I can't, but a very reliable interpret it

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Speaker 1: as in yourself interpret it. But we'll get into that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you'll change in mind, maybe you'll get another another tato,

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Speaker 1: But look, you've lived a life highs lows. You've seen

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Speaker 1: it all, so let's just sort of break it down.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your childhood where you grew up.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a housing commission, and it was

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Speaker 2: a very multicultural cul de sack that we lived in,

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Speaker 2: and it felt like a community back in those days.

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Speaker 2: The house that I grew up in, Anita Cobby's killers,

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Speaker 2: the Murphy brothers parents and them had lived in that

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Speaker 2: house prior to that. They moved out and we moved in.

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Speaker 2: So that paints a picture of the socioeconomical environment and

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Speaker 2: what it was like in those days. So that's where

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Speaker 2: I grew up basically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've jumped out at me and I made some

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Speaker 1: notes about that, living in the house that the Murphy

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Speaker 1: brothers grew up and for people, and I'm sure everyone's

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Speaker 1: heard of the need of copy murder. It was a

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Speaker 1: horrendous situation and the Murphy brothers, for even were recharged

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Speaker 1: with that murder. You always describe the house as feeling

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Speaker 1: slightly haunted.

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Speaker 2: Correct, even before I knew, because I was quite young, obviously,

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Speaker 2: and I only found out that that was their house

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Speaker 2: and the context in and around that when I was

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Speaker 2: about eight or nine years old. So even before I

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Speaker 2: knew that there was a past with that house, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I could always feel there was some kind of energy

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Speaker 2: in the house that was a heavy energy basically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Look, we're delving into areas that I don't

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Speaker 1: fully understand, but I know sometimes an environment can carry

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Speaker 1: carry something. I know, if you go into a closed

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Speaker 1: down prison or even the oh yeah, you can feel

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Speaker 1: the pain that's gone in that environment.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, a lot of people say that, They say

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Speaker 2: that it feels like the wolves can talk to them,

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Speaker 2: the energy that's coming off of that. Well, we believe

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Speaker 2: in Wi Fi signals, right, yeah, anything.

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Speaker 1: I've got an open mind the things. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: found it interesting. Also living in the could Sack, you

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Speaker 1: had a lot of your relatives living in there. You

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Speaker 1: have five houses, ten houses, and that must have been

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Speaker 1: a fun environment to grow up with cousins.

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Speaker 2: It was chaotic, fun and great. I think that you

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Speaker 2: know a lot of families will say that your cousins

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Speaker 2: are your first best friends. Usually if you've got cousins,

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Speaker 2: so you grow up together, you play together on the weekend.

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Speaker 2: So it was great in that respect to have everyone

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Speaker 2: quite close in kit and I think too, the family

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Speaker 2: was very used to living close together because in Danisk,

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Speaker 2: which is now a city of the Ukraine prior the

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Speaker 2: former Soviet Union. So they lived in a unit and

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Speaker 2: my grandmother raised eleven children in this year unit and

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Speaker 2: they were very used to living very.

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Speaker 1: Close but literally on top of it.

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Speaker 2: If anything that was in the same street would feel

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Speaker 2: a lot for some families, but that was, you know,

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Speaker 2: normal to even just all be in the same unit,

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Speaker 2: all in the same house. And I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of people from European or you know, more ethnic backgrounds

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Speaker 2: are kind of used to that close knit living environment.

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Speaker 2: It's a cultural thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it has its benefits, but doesn't the shared parenting

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Speaker 1: like if you're up to not good, your uncle, your auntie.

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Speaker 2: The shared cooking food and I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: It went down in that cul de sac. How would

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Speaker 1: you describe yourself as a child.

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Speaker 2: Apparently I was shy, which is really hard to believe

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Speaker 2: anyone that knows me the book, I was. I was

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Speaker 2: quite shy. I was a well behaved child. Me and

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Speaker 2: my mother always joked that I was a very good child,

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Speaker 2: but a bit of a you know, I guess, a

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Speaker 2: naughty adult adolescent and adult you have to.

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Speaker 1: Break out soon sooner or later, maybe you should have

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Speaker 1: got there that your sister in kindergarten, that it might

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Speaker 1: have been a easier path your parents' relationship. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I see you're still close with your mum. Your mum's

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Speaker 1: come down here today and she's exactly how I pictured

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Speaker 1: a reading the book. But you had a tough time

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Speaker 1: with your father and a decent man, but just was

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Speaker 1: carrying some pain. Would that be fair the sake most definitely.

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Speaker 2: And I think if you acknowledge that your parent is

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Speaker 2: a human and they've experienced trauma, that it is understandable

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Speaker 2: how they parent you in a certain way. They're doing

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Speaker 2: the best that they can with the knowledge that they have.

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Speaker 2: And he grew up in poverty. There was a shortage

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Speaker 2: of food in Russia. He was in a kid's home.

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Speaker 2: There was some abuse that went on in the kids home.

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Speaker 2: There was an incident where him and one of his

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Speaker 2: friends took an abuser out into the woods and Uri

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Speaker 2: was on one end, his friend was on the other,

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Speaker 2: and they broke. He abuses back up against a tree

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Speaker 2: and they left him there to dine. So if you

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Speaker 2: are grappling with those kinds of traumas and you don't

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Speaker 2: know how to cope in any other way than drinking

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Speaker 2: or doing drugs, then that's how you're going to cope.

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Speaker 2: And I think that society sees coping mechanisms quite differently.

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Speaker 2: So you've got workaholics, you're given a gold star, where

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Speaker 2: you've got your more clandestine type of coping mechanisms that

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Speaker 2: no one knows about. But when it's drung alcohol, it's

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Speaker 2: very overtly obvious. So they're just coping the best way

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Speaker 2: that they know how, and it's an illness and it

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Speaker 2: needs to be treated as such.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and for a kid, that's hard because you look

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Speaker 1: at your parents to start with as heroes. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're Superman, Superwoman, they can do everything. And then as

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Speaker 1: you got allder, you started to see the failings. It

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Speaker 1: was quite sad when you're talking about when he travel

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Speaker 1: overseas and you'd come to pick him up at the

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Speaker 1: airport and that he was in no show because he

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Speaker 1: got on the drink wherever he was and wasn't allowed

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Speaker 1: on the plane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it happened so many times, and yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: heartbreaking and devastating and that caused some issues for me,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't realize it at the time. That was

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Speaker 2: my norm at the time. It's only when you get

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Speaker 2: older and you reflect back and you look at certain

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Speaker 2: circumstances and things in your life that you realize how

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Speaker 2: these things have impacted you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a period in time, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure how old you were when you traveled overseas to

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Speaker 1: where your father grew up and with your mother. He

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Speaker 1: didn't come, he wasn't invited, but you and your mother

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Speaker 1: were drunk. You and your mom went over there. Where

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Speaker 1: was that and how did that change your view on life?

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Speaker 2: That was to Dansk, the coal mining town that's now

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Speaker 2: in the Ukraine. We caught a overnight train from Kiev

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Speaker 2: to Danievska and that was an experience. And I talk

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Speaker 2: about traveling on that train overnight. It was a lot

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Speaker 2: of drunk Russian men who couldn't aim. The toilet was

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Speaker 2: just like, I'm you can, you've created and I thought,

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Speaker 2: come on, guys, getting to aim. So it was quite

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Speaker 2: a wild train ride, to be honest. But it was

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Speaker 2: a great experience that me and my mum got to

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Speaker 2: have together with my auntie and my cousin and we

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Speaker 2: went to stay with my auntie and my cousin's parents.

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Speaker 2: But my Auntie's parents and her father actually fought in

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Speaker 2: the war and he at one stage had Goebels's briefcase

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Speaker 2: in his possession, so I mentioned that in the book

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Speaker 2: as well. So there's a lot of things in there

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Speaker 2: that back into history and the war, and also there's

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Speaker 2: some Australian history in there. I think when people see

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Speaker 2: the cover it's quite deceiving because inside the book it

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Speaker 2: goes a lot deeper into a lot of historical things,

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Speaker 2: and also I talk about trauma, mental health, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of women's issues as well, So it's a lot

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Speaker 2: deeper than what you see on the cover. So I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping people pick it up thinking one thing and leave

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Speaker 2: thinking a completely different.

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Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know what to expect that I'm reading

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Speaker 1: it preparing for this, but I've got very interested. Knew

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Speaker 1: his life and Brenda and how.

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Speaker 2: He's a whole book. Yeah you could, here's a whole Netflix.

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Speaker 1: Series anyway, an interesting character and one thing that came

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Speaker 1: through the whole time, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: your relationship with Cam and when that was going bad,

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Speaker 1: Ural stepped up as a father and said we can

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Speaker 1: make this problem go away, and he was he wasn't

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Speaker 1: talking about taking him out for dinner. He was going

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Speaker 1: to go again, just taken him out. Yeah, yeah, literally.

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Speaker 1: So okay, you also identified like a lot of your

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Speaker 1: family were successful in different fields, and you had your beauty,

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Speaker 1: and that's where you thought, Okay, well I'm going to

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Speaker 1: trade on what I've got there, and you got into

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Speaker 1: a beauty contest. Talk us through that. Because I'm not

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Speaker 1: an expert in that field. Surprisingly, so how did that

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Speaker 1: come about?

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Speaker 2: Expect you would be, Gary in regards to that. I

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Speaker 2: always have seen myself just as a normal person, and

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Speaker 2: my friends and family or people that know me quite

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Speaker 2: closely know that that's how I am. But I still

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Speaker 2: to notice that other people were perceiving me as being

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Speaker 2: attractive and I could leverage on that. So that's what

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Speaker 2: I did when I was younger, and I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if I can enter this contest and I can win

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Speaker 2: a trip overseas, this is a great way for me

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Speaker 2: to get out of Blacktown, see the world, travel, I

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Speaker 2: have my hair and makeup done and have a great time.

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Speaker 2: And it was also a very different era back then

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Speaker 2: when I was doing it, and the social climate has

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Speaker 2: changed a lot when it comes to pageants, when it

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Speaker 2: comes to women, when it comes to the way women

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Speaker 2: are perceived and objectified, it hasn't come that far, but

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Speaker 2: there has been some significant changes in this period in

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Speaker 2: the past ten years. So it was really a little

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Speaker 2: bit more I guess, socially acceptable to leverage your looks

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Speaker 2: in that way.

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Speaker 1: Back then there was an innocence to it. Wasn't no

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Speaker 1: one thought anything of it, like Miss Australia or Miss

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Speaker 1: Gold Coast or.

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Speaker 2: It was very normalized.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the first contest you went in, you won a

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars or something.

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Speaker 2: I was under age and it was in a pub

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Speaker 2: and I was in a bikini.

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Speaker 1: Cool.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, sorry, that was a different contest all right.

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Speaker 2: The contest you're talking about could be the dancing competition

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Speaker 2: at Channel B and I took the thousand dollars overseas

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Speaker 2: when I traveled overseas. Yes, I wasn't in a bikini.

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Speaker 2: They're just a crop toop and a skirt.

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Speaker 1: Okay, dancing in a bikini underage that we might have

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Speaker 1: taken the podcast somewhere I didn't expect. So what were

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Speaker 1: the titles that you won?

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Speaker 2: So I won three different titles, So misterism Queen Australia

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Speaker 2: Miss Australia International and Miss Lumia Australia and I've got

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Speaker 2: to go overseas on all three occasions, which is great.

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Speaker 1: Right, So that sort of set you up in a

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Speaker 1: lot of regards, I would imagine at that age and

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Speaker 1: winning contest like that, and I.

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Speaker 2: Made a lot of really good friends, some of which

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Speaker 2: I still speak to today nearly on a daily basis. We're

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Speaker 2: on WhatsApp, we're talking, and even though it's been ten

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Speaker 2: or so years, we have a really good long distance

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Speaker 2: relationship girls from other countries and it's really lovely to know.

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Speaker 2: So if you travel, you've always got somewhere to stay,

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Speaker 2: somebody local to show you around, and somebody that you

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Speaker 2: trust and that you have a good time with. So

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Speaker 2: that part of it, the friendship aspect and the connection aspect,

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Speaker 2: has been priceless.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, see my perception of it. I thought everyone in

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Speaker 1: those type of contests were straight one eighties and chaperones

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Speaker 1: and all that. But you broke out when you're over

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Speaker 1: was it the US with someone?

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Speaker 2: And owned Chicago with Miss California?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Okay, there was a rule that you had to stay

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Speaker 2: in the hotel I think from nine pm onwards and

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Speaker 2: if you got court leaving the hotel, you were disqualified.

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Speaker 2: So myself and Miss California and the miss from the

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Speaker 2: UK said, you know, stuff, this were going out. So

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Speaker 2: we left and we went to a night club in

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Speaker 2: Chicago and it was floor to ceiling glass. You could

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Speaker 2: see the whole city. It was amazing and oh, we

359
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Speaker 2: just had the best time. We're dancing on tables that

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Speaker 2: were free pouring vodka into our mouth. I thought, this

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Speaker 2: is wonderful. And although I did have some wild experiences

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Speaker 2: in the cross that was pretty up there. The Chicago

363
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Speaker 2: scene was pretty cool, and everyone was saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: be careful, it's Chicago, you know the spill, I didn't

365
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Speaker 2: feel unsafe. It was great.

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Speaker 1: Did that give you the taste of the bright lights?

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Speaker 1: And already got the taste? I think. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure what trip it was, but you also auditioned for Playboy.

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Speaker 2: That's the same trip.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'll do the topless, but I'm not doing the

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Speaker 1: bottom of okay. So that was the line that you

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Speaker 1: drew there. Yeah, what was it like auditioning because like Playboy,

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Speaker 1: Penthouse or whatever, those were big back in the day.

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Speaker 2: Again, the social climates changed. It was really really big

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Speaker 2: back then, and Playmate of the Year got quite a

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Speaker 2: large sum of money, a car, and then a model

377
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Speaker 2: in contracts, so on and so forth. Through there, you

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Speaker 2: can just see from the example of like Pamela Anderson

379
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Speaker 2: and how her career kind of progressed from there onwards.

380
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Speaker 2: So yeah, I thought that that was a viable option.

381
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Speaker 2: I wasn't didn't feel I was tall enough to be

382
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Speaker 2: a traditional model and to be more of a commercial model.

383
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Speaker 2: And actually my mom came with me to the Playboy test.

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Speaker 1: Shit, it makes it acceptable, I felt.

385
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Speaker 2: You know, say, if she was actually there in the

386
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Speaker 2: room with me, so I was supervised, I guess, so

387
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Speaker 2: to say, I bet.

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Speaker 1: They're all whole life experiences, aren't.

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Speaker 2: The Oh yeah, they are not something I'd probably do now.

390
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Speaker 1: Then again, when did you start getting the attraction to

391
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Speaker 1: the city nightlife and you were doing the Thursday, Friday, Saturday,

392
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Speaker 1: Sunday recovery session in the city. Talk us about that.

393
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Speaker 1: What attracted you to that lifestyle?

394
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Speaker 2: Fun? It was just fun and it was escape from reality.

395
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Speaker 2: Basically at the time, I didn't probably acknowledge so much

396
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Speaker 2: that it was escapism. But when you're there and you're

397
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Speaker 2: around friends, you're dancing and drinking, doing coke, whatever it

398
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 2: is that you're doing right, You're not thinking about, you know,

399
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 2: your traumas, you're not thinking about your everyday worries, you're

400
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: not thinking about life stuff. You're having a mental break.

401
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 2: You're basically numbing out and you're having a good time.

402
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,159
Speaker 2: And that can be quite una addictive. Everyone wants to

403
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: feel like that all the time, but that's not realistic.

404
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 2: That's not what life is.

405
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Speaker 1: It's hard to sustain it.

406
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's unsustainable. There's no pace in that kind

407
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 2: of coping mechanism. Back then, when I was young, I

408
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 2: wanted to be away from Blacktown in the Cross having

409
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 2: a good time because at home my father his health

410
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 2: was ailing. He was an addict and he was quite

411
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 2: verbally abusive, and it was an unpleasant environment to be in.

412
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,840
Speaker 2: So I said, I'm out of here, basically, And that's

413
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Speaker 2: kind of.

414
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: How it all breakaway. And you started that at a

415
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 1: young age, or like you're getting in with your fake

416
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 1: ideas and fake passport, fake passport, you had it all happening.

417
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: You got to meet a lot of the characters in there.

418
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Speaker 2: I did, and again also from families that came from overseas,

419
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 2: so you can see how there's the intergenerational stuff there

420
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 2: as well. That's quite interesting when you look at it

421
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 2: in that way.

422
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 1: Looking for something. Now, you said, and I'm interpreting from

423
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: the book, that you still realize that you've got your

424
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,439
Speaker 1: looks and you could trade that in that environment, like

425
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 1: the dumb bloke's coming up and buying your drinks. And

426
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 1: when I say dumb blokes, let's have sympathy for them.

427
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 1: But they thought they were in with a chance, and

428
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: you would leverage that.

429
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 2: Well in saying that I wouldn't call them dumb. I

430
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,880
Speaker 2: would say chivalry, and that's died a lot in this

431
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 2: day and age. I think that it is lovely when

432
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 2: a man offers you a drink, or a man takes

433
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 2: you for dinner and offers to pay for your dinner

434
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: and shows you that they're courting you, they're wanting to

435
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 2: impress you. They've got the ability to look after you,

436
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: even though you have the ability to look after yourself. Yeah,

437
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: because obviously a majority of women can buy their own dinner.

438
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 2: But it's not about that. Is that it's about the

439
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: courting and about respect. So I think in those days,

440
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: if you're speaking to a woman and you didn't buy

441
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: her a drink. It's pretty embarrassing. I think it's still

442
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: embarrassing now.

443
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: I think it would be still embarrassing.

444
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of shifts and change in the

445
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: way that that dynamic is framed in society, but I'm

446
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: still a big believer in.

447
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 1: Old fashioned vague. Yeah, what about the drugs? Did that

448
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: ever get hold of you? Did you become dependent on

449
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: the drugs?

450
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: I felt I had control. I don't feel I was

451
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: dependent on it. It was recreational for me, but it

452
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 2: quite easily could have become more than that, depending on

453
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,919
Speaker 2: what was going on in my life, depending on the

454
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: people you have around you. I've always had a really

455
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 2: good support network in my mother and in my sister,

456
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 2: and I think if I didn't have those things, things

457
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: could have been different, because there's a big genetic component

458
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: when it comes to addition, and my mother always had

459
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: fears around the fact that because I'm your's daughter, I

460
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: could have issues with addiction. And that's accurate, so accurate,

461
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 2: and something you've really got to be on top of

462
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 2: if that runs in your family. So you've got to

463
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 2: learn really good coping mechanisms. You've got to create a

464
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 2: community around you that can support you instead of going

465
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 2: to that you've got something healthy to gravitate to own.

466
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: It can make the difference, isn't it. Like I'm sure

467
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: your mum kept a tight reign as tired as she could.

468
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 2: I was on bail. Yes she did that.

469
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: I'm surprised do in the rest. We're going to ask,

470
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: and I want you to explain. You're not speaking for

471
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: every woman, but what is the attraction to the bad

472
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: guys for you?

473
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that I'm attracted to them because they're

474
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: perceived as bad. I don't think anyone's inherently good or bad.

475
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: We've all got, you know, two sides.

476
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: That's just a terminology, the bad bad boys, the.

477
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 2: Stereotypical bad boy. It's because we grew up in the

478
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: same ship pit usually, and we've got a lot in common.

479
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 2: I feel comfortable around people that have grown up rough

480
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: like I have. We see the world from a similar perspective,

481
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: and we're not only in the same book, we're on

482
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 2: the same page. Whereas nothing against people who are again

483
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: a stereotypical coin term as straighty one eighty. We just

484
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: look at life differently because our experiences are so far

485
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: detached from each other. So I have dated men that

486
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: you would say, you know, I guess, let's say.

487
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: I've got I've got a head in here, You've straight

488
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 1: one eighty dat incident. So I know what you're talking about,

489
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 1: but I'm interested in it. In that my career within

490
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: the police and even my life outside the police, I

491
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: constantly see the bad boys, and the bad boys is

492
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: just terminology. We're not even dissecting what is actually bad

493
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 1: or good about them. But I saw so many women

494
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: with the so called bad boys, and my take on

495
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: it was some thought they could change them, like, Okay,

496
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: this is a rough diamond, but I'm going to polish

497
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: him up, and this dude is going to be the

498
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: perfect gentleman once I finished with him.

499
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: Ladies, don't bother trying to polish the diamond. Get the

500
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: diamonds as.

501
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: Gifts life theories. But you obviously had an attraction, and

502
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: you explained that that way that you could understand where

503
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: they came from. There were similarity shared. And also I

504
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: think they and you mentioned this in the book, they

505
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: like having you as their partner. Look look how I've succeeded.

506
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: That was the that was their state as symbol having

507
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: you as a partner. Is that fair the say? Or

508
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: am I selling it too short?

509
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: That often is the case. And I think you can

510
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: say in traditional society, not just in the gang world,

511
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: that your partner is an extension of you.

512
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: Yep.

513
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 2: And this is how it's how it's seen. The partner

514
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: is an extension of you. And if they look a

515
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: certain way, they have certain things, they're wearing, certain things

516
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 2: that it elevates your status. If that makes sense in

517
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: that and then hence the name of the book accessory.

518
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: Well, I interpreted that that was the play on words,

519
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: play on words with the what what you were doing?

520
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: That attraction took you into a relationship. It was a

521
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: long term relationship with kemore happy to talk about the relationship.

522
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: There he was when you first got with him. I

523
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: think he was a non for a biking club. And

524
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: we've had enough Bikei's on here and we've talked about

525
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: it enough.

526
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: Your attraction to bad boys, then, Gary, if you've had

527
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 2: a lot of bikes.

528
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: I had to catch him when I was in the cops.

529
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: That was a strong attraction. But I buy you a drink.

530
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of friends in that world, and yeah,

531
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: there's professional differences. When I was in the cops, obviously,

532
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: of course I say this, and I don't want this

533
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: to be misinterpreted, but I respected the code that they

534
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: live by when they truly lived by their code. And

535
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that, but I understood it. I might

536
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: agree with it, but I understood a code. And they're

537
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: putting themselves up there. This is what we are. We're outlaws.

538
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: You're the cops. We don't like you. I can respect

539
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: living by their code. I just don't necessarily agree with

540
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: some of the things in their code. So I don't

541
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: mind mind them individually, sit down, have a chat. And

542
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: it's amazing the life that they've lived. I think you

543
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: touched on it too, that a lot of them have

544
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: been abused when and yeah, and this isn't the information

545
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: that I'm getting from them. A lot of them had

546
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: been abused. So when you see the big tough guy

547
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: covered in tattoos like that, don't fuck with me. Look

548
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: about them. A lot of it is that bravado built

549
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: up because they're never going to be a victim again.

550
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: And that saddens me that people have to. Yeah, that's

551
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: the way they live their life.

552
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 2: But I understand it, and then that's further reinforced in

553
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: prison because you have to have that bravado because if

554
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: you show any vulnerability, you'll be picked on, and then

555
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: that kind of transfers into the behavior in society as well.

556
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: So if you don't, if you're not seen as vulnerable

557
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: or weak, that not that being vulnerable this week, I

558
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: just want to point that out. But if you're perceived

559
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: as such, there's always a threat that you'll be attacked

560
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: or victimized.

561
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: Again, they can smell smell fear, and you aren't. It

562
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: can't display that or you will be preyed upon in

563
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: jail and also in the biking clubs. So okay, what

564
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: was your steps into there? So is it fair when

565
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: you were going out with Kem that you were a wag,

566
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: a biky wag? Is that or an old lady?

567
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: Old old love that term? Well I'm kidding.

568
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: Alter now so, but it's an old lady in that

569
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: is a term that's used the old lady, and that

570
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: tends to indicate you're a partner of a particular bikie.

571
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: So how did you meet How did you meet Camp?

572
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: We lived in similar areas, so we had friends of

573
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: friends and we kind of just grew up in the

574
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: same scene basically. And that's where I say, you know,

575
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: it just becomes normalized that dating somebody in a club

576
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: or that goes into a club, or somebody that commits

577
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: crime or Jill's drugs or goes to jail, or it

578
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 2: was seen as quite normal in my social sir, and

579
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: with me and my friends growing up. Quite a few

580
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: of my girlfriends that I grew up with had also

581
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 2: had similar experiences to me, so it was very normalized.

582
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: So it didn't feel foreign.

583
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: Well, you are a product of your environment, and I

584
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: do understand what you're saying. So it wasn't sort of

585
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: you've never seen that side of the world and you've

586
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: stepped in and gone, yeah, wow, you understood that a

587
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: big deal.

588
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: It wasn't like, oh my goodness, you're joining a club,

589
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean?

590
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: Like, it was okay, okay. So you started going out

591
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: with him. He started to rise.

592
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: Up the ranks quite quickly, very likable, charismatic, kind, generous

593
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: person and also you know, physically strong, tall, good sense

594
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: of him. I got along with everyone, so that worked

595
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: to his advantage or a good standover man, and I

596
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: think that's why he was able to move up quite quickly.

597
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 1: How were you treated in the club, in the social

598
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: events and different things when you got to get with

599
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: the club?

600
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: Was very well?

601
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: Yep, very well.

602
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

603
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: How did you navigate your way through that?

604
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: Again? Just normalized. Yes, friends with all the other wives

605
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: and girlfriends and would go out and would have dinner together,

606
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 2: and it was actually like our own little crew, so

607
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 2: to speak. And yeah, camaraderie in a sense because we

608
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: all would have quite similar experiences, and those experiences are

609
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: very outside the norm for your regular person and not

610
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: something you'd speak about with probably other people other than

611
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: the wives and the girlfriends that are in similar situations

612
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: to you. So yeah, I actually was treated quite well

613
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: within that scene and that circle, and I enjoyed being

614
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: in that scene in that circle in that time until

615
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: Cam developed an addiction and then everything changed after that.

616
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk us through that, because as described in your book,

617
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: the Cam that you first got, we've had a lot

618
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: of things going for him and then the slow deterioration

619
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: when the addiction and came in. And he was a

620
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: good mefan Feathermines cook too, which endeared him to the

621
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: world that he was living in as well. It's correct,

622
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: So what changes did you see in him?

623
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: Anyone that knows somebody who has an addiction and has

624
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: seen somebody from the inception of that addiction addiction until

625
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: when they hit rock bottom will know that it's like

626
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: the lights are on, but no one's home, and you

627
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: pined for that person that existed prior before the addiction

628
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: because it slowly eats away at their personality, at their soul,

629
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: and they become unrecognizable basically, and not the person you

630
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: fell in love with, and they're not the person that

631
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: you kind of agreed to date or go out with

632
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: because the behaviors change.

633
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: I look, I've seen people that addicted to ice and

634
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: other drugs. They've lost their soul. You look into their

635
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: eyes and there's nothing but behind the eyes. I know

636
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: that like sitting in interview rooms with people who are

637
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: just talking to people that have got that addiction, and

638
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: there's something that there's just a big black hole there,

639
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: isn't it.

640
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because the pain that they've got within themselves, the

641
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: emotion that is there that needs to be dealt with,

642
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: is so heavy and painful that they can't face it.

643
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: And in order to not face it, they have to

644
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: nu'mb out with drugs, alcohol, etc. There's always pain there.

645
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: There's always like we said earlier, there's always a root

646
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: cause there.

647
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: What we've sort of hit the low points of that relationship.

648
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: The high points, like the lifestyle that you were living with.

649
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: Him explained that when.

650
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: Things were good, they were very good. When things were bad,

651
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: they were very, very bad. So I guess it was

652
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: like a roller coaster. It was feast or famine a

653
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: lot of the times, but the famine was because of

654
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: the addiction. Money would go missing, and that's when I realized, Hey,

655
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: this is big becoming a serious problem here.

656
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Is that something you're like that? Some people go

657
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: through their life flatlining live, the suburban life, the white

658
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: picket fence, two kids dog, that type of stuff. Are

659
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: you looking for the highs and lows? Is that something

660
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: that you're you're attracted to?

661
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 2: My life is pretty interesting and exciting now, but in

662
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: different ways. So you know, writing the book and the

663
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: work that I do as well the therapy work that

664
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: I do. I'm always learning, always meeting new people, so

665
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: it's it has its highs and lows now, but in

666
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: a very different way. So yes, I do like that.

667
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: I don't think I could ever live your mundane, white

668
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: picket fence life, I would become very borught. And that's

669
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: probably my idea of hell. Maybe yeah, some people's dream.

670
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: I think people like you look at other people. Everyone

671
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: lives their life in the path that they choose. Some people,

672
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: other people would be slow death.

673
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like to always learn something new, Like I said,

674
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: meet new people. Travel. I traveled to the Philippines. I

675
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: visited the women in Middlist City prison. I like to

676
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: go and do things that enrich your knowledge, things that

677
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: you can learn to bring back to your country and

678
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 2: advise on, you know, whether that's programs, policies, et cetera.

679
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: I like to do things where I can learn things

680
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: and then give that knowledge back.

681
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: How did you just a sidetrack? How did you get

682
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: into the women's Philippine prison in Manela? That would have

683
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: been interesting experience.

684
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 2: It was really really interesting, and it was a privilege

685
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 2: to be allowed into their living space. So I thank

686
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: them for that, and I went in there and actually Brenda,

687
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: my mother, came to the prison as well, and we

688
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: went into the dormitory and I explained, well, how I

689
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 2: got in there.

690
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: To begin with?

691
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: Was I spoke with the warden, and I explained the

692
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: work that I do here and the advocacy that I

693
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: do for women have conviction histories, and I said, I'd

694
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: like to come and do some cross cultural knowledge sharing

695
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 2: with you and see what what are you guys doing

696
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: that where not that works, and vice versa, and let's

697
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: sit down and let's, you know, share ideas and share knowledge.

698
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: So it's an enriching experience for both. And they said, yeah, great,

699
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: please come along because I'm a trauma therapist, as you know,

700
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: so come along. Anyway, I went. I went there. They

701
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: invited me into the dorm and I would say, I

702
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: know that the people listening can't see the size of

703
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: the studio, but just for your purposes, so double the

704
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 2: size of the studio. You'll have sixty women.

705
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're looking at the room probably eight foot

706
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: by six foot here roughly, or three to four meters

707
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: long to the three meters wide.

708
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so not much space at all, and bunk beds

709
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: one on top of the other, and so very close

710
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 2: living quarters. And some of the women did not have mattresses.

711
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: They were sleeping on bunk beds with just a cardboard sheet.

712
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: And although that was the conditions. They were allowed to

713
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 2: see their families daily except for the days where there

714
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,479
Speaker 2: was mandatory learning and jobs training, which is two days

715
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 2: a week, and they were allowed to see their children

716
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 2: for basically unlimited hours in comparison to what happens in Australia.

717
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: They had a coffee shop where the men make the

718
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: coffee for the families or the male prisoners on the

719
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: other side they come, they work in the coffee shop,

720
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 2: so they make the coffee and the snacks for their

721
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 2: children when they come. There's a great playground there. And

722
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: I said to the warden and the nurse and the

723
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: other staff there, and also to the women that were

724
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: in there, what happens when you leave prison? And they

725
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: were like, what do you mean? Because in Australia we

726
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: have a situation where a lot of women or people

727
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: in general, as you would know, they leave prison and

728
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: they don't have anywhere to go. They've lost connection with family,

729
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: they don't have anywhere to live, and it just fuels

730
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: the cycle of going back inside because they don't have

731
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: that support network. And they looked at me like I

732
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 2: was speaking another language, probably because I was.

733
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: But that was very very perceptive of him.

734
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: They were looking at me, like what is she talking about?

735
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: They said, what do you mean? We just go back

736
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: home to our families. And it made sense because they're

737
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: allowed to keep the connection with family. They're not moved

738
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: far away. They can see their children every day, they

739
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: can see their parents every day. So that's something that

740
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: they do really, really well, is the maintaining your connection

741
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: with support networks so when they come out, the family's

742
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: able to support.

743
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: So it does make a lot of sense. Like prisons science,

744
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: it's not. I think one of the Norwegian countries look

745
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: after the family when the prisoners are in there to

746
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: make sure the families are looked after outside because they

747
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: know the importance of having a stable family for the

748
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: prisoner to come back to it.

749
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: And especially in the sense of when we've got children

750
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: who are impacted by a parent who's incarcerated, we know

751
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: that if we look at the starts. I'm not going

752
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: to go in to that, but if we look at

753
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: the stats, there's a higher likelihood of that child growing

754
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: up and being engaged in crime if they've had a

755
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: parent or both parents incarcerated. So looking at myself, I've

756
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 2: had charges, my father was in prison, my partner's father

757
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: was in prison. So even just within you know, my

758
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: close knit circle, I can see the intergenerational stuff. So

759
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: if you're looking after the children that have parents incarcerated,

760
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: that's future crime prevention right there. So and that's something

761
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: that can be implemented now that we're not doing look

762
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: after the kids, look after the mums, because the mums

763
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: look after the kids. You know, that's our future. It's

764
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: what we've got to nurture.

765
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: And most people go in the prison, and this is

766
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: where I think the public don't fully appreciate they're going

767
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: to get out. So it's how you treat them inside

768
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: is going to dictate how they come out, what they're

769
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: like when they come out.

770
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: So oh yes, and there's I think that the person

771
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: going into prison goes into court, they get sentenced, and

772
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: they say, okay, yes, I'm going to do my five

773
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: years or my ten years or whatever it might be.

774
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: So they're agreeing to that part of it. But I

775
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 2: don't feel like Corrections is keeping up their end of

776
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: the bargain because people are coming out worse. There's no

777
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: correcting going on in Corrections needs to be better access

778
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: to health, that needs to be about access to education, skills, training, employment,

779
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: training and more connection to family promoted.

780
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, we're breaking those things like education, skills training

781
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: so they've got something to come to and the family

782
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: family connection that is important. I know. Correct, your services

783
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: are trying to implement changes in that regate.

784
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: I'll tell you exactly what you need to be doing.

785
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, have a look at a Macquarie Correctional Center

786
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: and a few other prisoners. I'm talking New South Wales

787
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: here who adopted a new approach, and I think it's

788
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: something worthwhile. Definitely worthwhile. And this is not me sitting

789
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: here as a bleeding heart softy. I'm an ex cop,

790
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: so I make a hardline on phone.

791
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: I don't think either of us are softiest. Gary.

792
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: No, was just to clarify that we're tough. Hey, guys,

793
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to get more out of

794
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers, then you should head over to our

795
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: new video feed on Spotify where you can watch every

796
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch

797
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today.

798
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: Getting back to camp, the deterioration that it became became

799
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: quite confronting for you. Some of the things that took place,

800
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: you wanted happy to talk through that journey.

801
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: I'm happy to talk through that. So there was a

802
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: couple of incidents when I quite easily could have lost

803
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: my life, and you know, I was strangled, I was

804
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: shot at. A lot of really violent stuff went on,

805
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 2: which I've worked through. And I speak about these experiences

806
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: very openly in the book because I believe it's important

807
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: that if you can speak about these things, you should

808
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: for the people that cannot. And I don't know what

809
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: the flow on impacts will be for women who have

810
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 2: been through similar situations or potentially young women growing up

811
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: that will read my book and say, oh, hang on

812
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 2: a minute, I can see red flags. Now I'm going

813
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: to kind of, you know, back away, step away. You know,

814
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: I need to have boundaries, I need to look after myself.

815
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 2: I need to make sure that you know, XYZ maybe

816
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: make them more perceptive orwaere that these things do go on.

817
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: But I think the main thing is that women don't

818
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: feel alone in having had these experiences, because when these

819
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: really violent things happen to you, you don't sit and

820
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: imagine that there's X amount of other women out there

821
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: who have been through similarly.

822
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: It can be very low in isolation.

823
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: Yes, so I'm hoping that this makes a lot of

824
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: women feel as though you're not alone or know that

825
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 2: they're not alone, basically because it can be very very

826
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: isolating to be in an abusive relationship, and a lot

827
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 2: of the times too, for a long period of time,

828
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: it's like a clandestine thing. They hide it from family

829
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 2: and friends. It's too shameful to.

830
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: Admit, well that that comes into it, and it's sad

831
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: that comes into it, but it's like an embarrassment. And

832
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: I suppose if you've well, this is a partner I selected,

833
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: and look what's happening, and all the friends and family

834
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: probably seen me go, we could have told you.

835
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: That shame, self, blame, all of these things that come

836
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: into it that aren't helpful.

837
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: But your experiences were I think that there was one

838
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: time a shop was let fire at the taxi and

839
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: another time you've been chase around with him in a

840
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: drug fueled rage with a shotgun and then strangled to

841
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: the point where you passed out and ended up in hospital.

842
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought I was finished, and that strangulation, I thought,

843
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 2: this is it, this is the end.

844
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: I thought, Yeah, what what happened? When you wake up?

845
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: And yeah, you work.

846
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 2: Up and I thought, fuck, yeah, I'm alive.

847
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's a bonus surprise. Always look on the

848
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: bright side life. Yeah, you you were concerned about leaving

849
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: him because of the state of mind he was in.

850
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: And access to weapons too had to be taken into consideration.

851
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: And I don't think that's unique to the drug world

852
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: or to the gang land world. I think that, you know,

853
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 2: there's access to weapons even though we've got laws in place,

854
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: et cetera. I think that a lot of women that

855
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: aren't in that world still have to consider access to

856
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: weapons as a risk factor when they're leaving, which is

857
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: the most dangerous time. So I don't think I'm alone

858
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: in that. It's just that probably, you know, in my circumstance,

859
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: it was a shotgun as opposed to some other kind

860
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: of weapon.

861
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, but there's always weapons in house. They

862
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: don't have to be a gun to flee exact click

863
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: click the violence. But you reached out to his club

864
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,959
Speaker 1: and spake to as soon your member there and saying, yeah,

865
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: help me, this is what's going on.

866
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: I said, he needs to go to rehab because I

867
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: was able to separate the person from the illness, and

868
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: I knew that his addiction was again not an excuse,

869
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: but it was the reason behind his behavior, because the

870
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: violence increased and the behaviors and the aggression increased so

871
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: much as a result of the drug taking, and was

872
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 2: a complete polar opposite to the person that I had

873
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 2: met and I was with prior, and that I entered

874
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 2: a relationship with. And I always kind of hoped that

875
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: that person would come back, and then I realized it wouldn't,

876
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: so I really tried to implore them to put him

877
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 2: into a rehabilitation facility for a period of time so

878
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 2: he could get his head straight and have a chance

879
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: at getting his health back, getting his life back. Whether

880
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: we stayed together or not was irrelevant at that point

881
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: for me on a human level, I wanted him to

882
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 2: get the medical help that he needed and the psychological

883
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: help that he obviously needed as well.

884
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: How was that received when you took that to the club?

885
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: It was all a lot of yes, yes, yes, and

886
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: then not a lot of action. I think they tried

887
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 2: to detox him themselves, which was futile. I know I

888
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: tried to detox youuring myself a couple of times at home.

889
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: I do not recommend a very dangerous thing to do.

890
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: It needs to be under medical supervision. But I think

891
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: also in some senses, I would say that could have

892
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: been to their advantage to have him, you know, addicted.

893
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he's dependent control do anything. How did the

894
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: relationship actually come to an end?

895
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 2: Then it ended when I left, So look, it ended

896
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: before that. But I had to be very careful in

897
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 2: the way that I did decide to leave, because I

898
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: did get cam to leave, but he would return to

899
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: the home. He ripped the door off the hinges on

900
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 2: one occasion, and I had went out one night and

901
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: I got home and he had crawled through my window

902
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: and he was asleep in my bed. And this was

903
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: after I, oh yeah, and I just had to pretend

904
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 2: that everything was okay because I didn't know what mood

905
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: he was in. I didn't know whether he had a

906
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: weapon under the blanket. I didn't know what was going

907
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: to happen. So I just acted normally, put on my

908
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: pajamas and just laid in the bed and kind of

909
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: just one eye opened situation and waited till the morning.

910
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 2: He got up in the morning and then he left.

911
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 2: Didn't say a word.

912
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,760
Speaker 1: I suppose in your situation, because he knew he was cooking,

913
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: the drugs and all that. You didn't really have the

914
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: option of ringing the cops, did you, No?

915
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: And I never would, I never would. I guess you

916
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: would know. You know, there's a code in regards to that.

917
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: But I will say that domestic violence and club issues

918
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: or whatever it might be, they're completely separate things and

919
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: they never should be kind of piled together in one thing.

920
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: You know, and people get called, oh, you're a dog

921
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: if you call the cops. You can't exactly, but if

922
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: somebody's you're abusing you, they're not a man, And yeah,

923
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 2: you know, you need it needs to be dealt with it.

924
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: You're not a dog. It needs to be dealt with.

925
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 2: Real men don't hit women. So yeah, that needs to

926
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 2: be kind of separated. But back then it was kind

927
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: of all piled into one and domestic violence wasn't on

928
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: the forefront as much as what it is now in society.

929
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: Did you have blokes within the club that had the

930
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: ticket that stand up to this, like if something was

931
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: going down domestic violence and just take him aside and

932
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: saw the man.

933
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 2: Well, we try to deal with everything. We did, try

934
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: to deal with everything in house, so to speak. So

935
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: it's a kind of street justice. It's a better way

936
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 2: to deal with things. And yes, some people did go

937
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 2: and visit him at his house and he ran, and

938
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: I was disappointed in that. I felt he should have

939
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: just stayed and then it would have been even.

940
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said, he didn't have the balls to even

941
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: stand up and face it.

942
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 2: Didn't can run that fast.

943
00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: Defense kicks in that adrenaline. Adrenaline, So we're and can

944
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: we talk? And your father's passed away. But I like

945
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: the fact that the father that always had your back.

946
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: And how was described as how Uri was going to

947
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: We touched on it earlier, how Uri was going to

948
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: fix the problem.

949
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Ury said, you know, we'll get rid of him.

950
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 2: I'm knock him and it doesn't matter because I'm dying anyway.

951
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: But even if Ury wasn't dying, he still would have

952
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: been keen to do it. So it became a problem because,

953
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: like I said, I left, ripped the door off, the

954
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: hinges comes into the window at night. We thought, you know,

955
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: where is this going to end? Where is this situation

956
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: going to end? Am I ever going to be free

957
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: of this person? And you always you know, after you've

958
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: been strangled to the point where you think you're going

959
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: to die, and you end up unconscious and you're shot

960
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: at you're thinking how much longer do I have? Basically,

961
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: so it was either me or him at that point.

962
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 2: That's psychologically the point that I was at. And Ur

963
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 2: and I discussion about it and we kind of planned

964
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 2: what we were what we were wanting to do. Then

965
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: luckily we didn't have to, you know, go through with that.

966
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: What eventually led to the break up, all the separation.

967
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 2: I decided to leave the area and I went to

968
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: central New South Wales, YEP, and kind of just hit

969
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: out there where he couldn't find me for a while

970
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 2: and was hoping that he'd just kind of get over it.

971
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: Well, did he get over it? Because part of the

972
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: problem we've had absession and with the addiction is that

973
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: and yeah, you're smiling and you're tough, You've lived a

974
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: tough life. That Yeah, if you've got someone strangling you

975
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: to the point where you end up in the hospital,

976
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 1: or someone running around with a loaded shotgunsfis face and

977
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: someone firing a shot, you must have had genuine concerns

978
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: for you. Are you going to survive this?

979
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah I did. I'm a pretty positive person. I'm

980
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: always try and look at, you know, the brighter side

981
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: of things. Not that there's a bright side in that,

982
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: but I always saw that there's hope, and there's a

983
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,959
Speaker 2: way out, and there's a way forward. No matter what's

984
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: thrown at me, there's always a way forward, and I

985
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: always push for that. But yes, I was genuinely concerned

986
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 2: for my safety, and that's why I chose to remove

987
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 2: myself from the situation, because the owners couldn't be on

988
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: him to correct the situation of his behavior because he

989
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: was not of sound mind. He's addicted and has access

990
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: to weapons. So and that was that aspect of things

991
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: was solidified because I went and spoke to him after

992
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: he had been arrested for something else. Yep, he ended

993
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: up in prison and I sat with him and he

994
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: said to me, I'm actually glad that I'm in here

995
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: because I would have killed you. I would have killed

996
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: myself and probably somebody else. So yeah, well that that

997
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: means that removing myself from the situation was the right

998
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 2: thing to do. But also I had the privilege of

999
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: being able to do that. A lot of women don't.

1000
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true, that's true. What prompted you to go

1001
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: see in prison, and how long since you'd spoke to him,

1002
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: were you staying in contact with him when he was

1003
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: in prison? What prompted you to go see him in prison?

1004
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: What prompted me to go and visit him and talk

1005
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: to him was that I knew it would be an

1006
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: opportunity to speak to him when he was straight. He

1007
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 2: wasn't completely straight, but I mean not on illicit substances,

1008
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: and I wanted to give him an opportunity to apologize.

1009
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 2: Now looking back, you know, don't I don't need the apology.

1010
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: I was a lot younger than too, So I give

1011
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: him an opportunity to apologize, and also to say, you

1012
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 2: know what if we run into each other in the

1013
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: street or in the traps, and you know, I'm someone else,

1014
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 2: you're with somebody else to things to be able to

1015
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 2: be civil, and that didn't happen. He said he wasn't

1016
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 2: ready to apologize, and I said, you know, that's fine,

1017
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 2: and I left. But I gave him. I gave him

1018
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: that opportunity to, I don't know, close the book on

1019
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: that and leave some room for forgiveness, and you know

1020
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 2: that healing that comes with that closure.

1021
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: How long was he insightful?

1022
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 2: After that, I didn't speak to him, so I'm not sure,

1023
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: but I think it was a little bit of a

1024
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: period of time.

1025
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well it's tough. How long were you together?

1026
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: For five years?

1027
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: It's a long time. It's a relationship. So yeah, you

1028
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: had that closeness here the start with that.

1029
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 2: And even on a human level, you don't like to

1030
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: see somebody or anybody in that kind of.

1031
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 1: Situation once you break away from him. Did you break

1032
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: away from the bike?

1033
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 2: He sainte with that, I started dating Dean, But I

1034
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: started dating Dean because I knew he was somebody that

1035
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 2: could protect me and I couldn't rely on the police

1036
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: to protect me. Like I said, things were more dealt

1037
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: within house, and the police were aware of the fact

1038
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 2: that there was abuse in my home and they tried

1039
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 2: to leverage that in a way that they said, you know,

1040
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 2: if you give us information about abc D, then will

1041
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 2: help to protect you. Otherwise we're not interested. And I thought,

1042
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 2: I won't say what I thought, but.

1043
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of hinting where it's but it

1044
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: gets a lot worse. But we fuck the police tatoo.

1045
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: But I should have saying that. Saying that, so I

1046
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: suppose the police. I'm not defending it, and yeah, we

1047
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: try to leave partners out of Yeah, if you're going

1048
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: after someone, you tend to leave the partners out. But

1049
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: I suppose from their point of view, you know the

1050
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: crimes is in, you want us to help help you,

1051
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: And that's what they were trying to leverage was it

1052
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: will save you from him if you give him up.

1053
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: But that's a face. They wouldn't have been able to

1054
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: save me from him, That's the whole point, you know,

1055
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: So you have to just deal with these things yourself

1056
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: if you're in a situation. I was not recommending anyone

1057
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 2: does that, but for me, that was my best chance

1058
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: of survival and keeping myself safe was to date somebody

1059
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: that I knew he wouldn't want to, you know, come

1060
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: up against or mess with.

1061
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: Basically, Well, I suppose and you said you understood the

1062
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: code of the bikies and you don't don't speak to police,

1063
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: and you respected that and didn't And that's probably the

1064
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: environment you've you've grown up with Yuri's attitude. Yes, I'm

1065
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: sure he wasn't one that like speaking to police.

1066
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 2: No. No, have you gotten to the scene in the

1067
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 2: book where the police come to the house and he

1068
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: answers the door naked. Yeah, did that make you smile?

1069
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: It makes me smile that I've been confronted with that before.

1070
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 1: And yeah, and that is a real fuck you police,

1071
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: I'm not putting clothes on what what? What do you?

1072
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: What do you want? With Yuri? The decline? And I

1073
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: know it impacted on you with the alcohol, the dependence

1074
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: and the seeing him go from this strong, successful, successful

1075
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: man to becoming someone that was hiding his drinks. And yeah,

1076
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: I think you found him on the bus shelter without

1077
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 1: shoes on board, him home and different things like that.

1078
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: That must be.

1079
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: Hard for a child, Oh, very extremely And I don't

1080
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 2: think that there's any real words to describe how painful

1081
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: that emotion is. And there's a lot of people who

1082
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 2: have addictions that are highly intelligent. They're brilliant people, they've

1083
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: got great personalities, they have such good things going for them.

1084
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: It's just that that coping mechanism is not there, and

1085
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: that pain is so strong. So it's not a reflection

1086
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 2: on them as people. It's just an illness that needs

1087
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 2: to be treated. And I started to realize that as

1088
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:56,399
Speaker 2: I got older.

1089
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: You saw, Okay, we might take break at this stage.

1090
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: When we come back, we're going to talk about you've

1091
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 1: decided to go into the relationship We've dean. We want

1092
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: to talk about your experiences dating the straight one eighties

1093
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: in the intrument period. Come on, be nice to the

1094
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: good guys. And also I make light of this, but

1095
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: it was a horrific situation that you found yourself in

1096
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: and there you've got to accept blame your living the lifestyle,

1097
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 1: but the extremes have been involved in a tactical arrest

1098
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: where stung grenades were thrown in, multiple stung grenades thrown

1099
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: into your bedroom, and you suffered very serious injuries to

1100
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: the point where you might have lost you lost your hand, yeah.

1101
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: And almost lost my eyesight as well.

1102
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, no, I've seen patos of it, so that

1103
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 1: that would be very very traumatic. But we're going to

1104
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 1: talk all through that and what you're doing now with

1105
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: your life and how you're sort of trying to turn

1106
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: it around and pointed in the right direct sounds good

1107
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: cheese m hm.