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Speaker 1: I'll get it, Sam, it's your project. Of course, it

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Speaker 1: is Bobby Capuco on the other side of the world,

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Speaker 1: Craig Kappa on this side of the world, or perhaps

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Speaker 1: if you're listening from the States, I am on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the world. Good morning, what's morning here?

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Speaker 1: Hi made?

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Speaker 2: How are you doing good? I'm filled with optimism, You

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Speaker 2: filled with.

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Speaker 1: How are you really?

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Speaker 2: Or you just filled with a chicken sandwich and a

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Speaker 2: chocolate milk. I might be sending down, but I'm standing

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Speaker 2: up inside myself.

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Speaker 1: I've never asked you this, so this is completely irrelevant, redundant, probably,

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Speaker 1: but I want to ask you just quickly before we

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Speaker 1: dive into what we want to talk about. Could you

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Speaker 1: tell me what you eat typically in a day? This

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Speaker 1: is a question I get asked, what do you eat?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me what you eat? What do you

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Speaker 1: eat in a day? Like typically, what's your breakfast?

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Speaker 2: My typical days are a plant based actually, so I'll

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Speaker 2: have I'm not meaning that I'm a vegan or a vegetarian.

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Speaker 2: It's just the base of my diet is plants because

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Speaker 2: I feel I run well on that, my mental clarity

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Speaker 2: more sustainable energy. So on the morning I'll have like

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Speaker 2: some spinach, I'll have some kaloe, some broccoli, whatever assortment

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Speaker 2: of etch I have inside my fridge. I'll throw some

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Speaker 2: eggs on that, hard boiled, sometimes fried. I prefer hard boiled.

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Speaker 2: They're just like easier. And Yeah, throughout the day, I'll

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Speaker 2: just have like an assortment of meats, vedge and nuts, berries,

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Speaker 2: a lot of blueberries, things like that. Some days I'll

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Speaker 2: make myself an avocado on toast with. This is a

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Speaker 2: conversation I've literally never had with anyone before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I like it. I may ask me, Well,

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Speaker 1: I just think it's interesting because I've never asked you

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Speaker 1: what you I mean. I've been around you a bit,

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Speaker 1: and I say a bit what you eat? But I

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Speaker 1: don't know because you're still like, you're fifty iss, you're

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Speaker 1: in good shape, you're strongly lean. I've never asked you

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Speaker 1: actually what a dia eating looks like for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, keep going so most days, yeah, it's just like

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Speaker 2: nuts and berries and a little bit of fre roots,

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Speaker 2: but mostly plants, eggs, meats. But when I go off

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Speaker 2: the rails, I go completely off the rails. What you'll

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Speaker 2: go to when when you lose your shit? What you'll

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Speaker 2: go to crunchy shit pretzels. Popcorn really, I mean, if

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Speaker 2: you got crisps. No, no, I don't like crisps. Really,

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Speaker 2: I don't like them at all. No, I like popcorn.

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Speaker 2: I like pretzels. That's really good. It's not even ice

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Speaker 2: cream anymore. I used to love ice cream. I don't

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Speaker 2: like that. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: When you say pretzels, you may note a little hard,

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Speaker 1: crunchy things, not like the warm, big pretzels.

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Speaker 2: No, no, I usually eat the crunchy ones. Really funny.

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Speaker 2: When I was living in New York City, coming back

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Speaker 2: over wow, like it's gotta be three years ago, give

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Speaker 2: or take, I would get work in the evening, but

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Speaker 2: then I'd have to take a bus across town and

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Speaker 2: go back to work another location. So I used to

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Speaker 2: buy those big, giant pretzels. And the reason for this

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Speaker 2: is you, for like one dollar, us used to be

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Speaker 2: able to get these incredibly massive, smoked, delicious pretzels. They

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Speaker 2: were so good, so bad for you, but so good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And literally five minutes after I ate one, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: would get dizzy. I put my head back on the bus,

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Speaker 2: and when I opened my eyes, I'd be at my

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Speaker 2: destination and that was a built in nap and then

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Speaker 2: I go work for the rest of the evening. So

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Speaker 2: that was like a giant sleeping pill for me.

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Speaker 1: Delicious hell that is. I wouldn't be recommending that now.

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Speaker 1: What is I've never had one of those? What is?

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Speaker 1: That's just you said, smokey, what it's bread? Isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it just bread?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And it put but on the bottom. It had

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Speaker 2: this charcoal burnt smoke. It. It was so good the

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Speaker 2: food that you used to be able to get well again.

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Speaker 2: Not not for you, It's probably the worst thing you

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Speaker 2: could eat. But for me, like anything I eat, it

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Speaker 2: didn't matter at that age. I mean it mattered energetically,

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Speaker 2: it didn't matter for me esthetically. And it was a

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Speaker 2: great way for me to just knock myself out on

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Speaker 2: the bus. I'd wake up and gone, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go to work for a few more hours. So that

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Speaker 2: was kind of weird. I don't know why we're going

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Speaker 2: into that, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: I did, I do. I do. I've got another question

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Speaker 1: for you, which a lot of people wouldn't think about.

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Speaker 1: So when you are when you've got to stand in

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Speaker 1: front of groups like you do and I do, and

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Speaker 1: even like for now, doing a podcast where you've got

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Speaker 1: to talk for whatever forty five sixty minutes and be

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Speaker 1: hopefully be somewhat interesting and articulate, and you know, makes

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Speaker 1: sense to be able to think clearly and express things.

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Speaker 1: I can't eat. I can't eat much food within proximity

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Speaker 1: of needing to use my brain and stand in front

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Speaker 1: of group, even if it's a group on a podcast,

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Speaker 1: but especially if, like I'd say, I'm presenting in the

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Speaker 1: morning from to eleven at a conference, I will not

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Speaker 1: eat anything until after the thing after eleven o'clock. And

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Speaker 1: if I'm presenting at night, same thing, I can't. I

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Speaker 1: need my stomach to be almost empty because that's when

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Speaker 1: my brain works best. If I've just eaten a normal meal,

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Speaker 1: Like if I eat my dinner at seven o'clock seven

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Speaker 1: point thirty, I've got the IQ of a wombat. Can't

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Speaker 1: string words together, like it's just everything just my body's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: everything's just slowing down. But that's the way that it

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Speaker 1: works for me. What about you eating? What's the correlation

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Speaker 1: between eating food and cognitive function for you and doing

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Speaker 1: your job on.

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Speaker 2: A typical day, The less they eat, the better. So

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Speaker 2: if I go into a meeting in the morning and

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Speaker 2: I haven't eaten, I feel like my cognition is improved.

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Speaker 2: Same thing eater in the day. I eat very little

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Speaker 2: for lunch. But when I'm presenting, the amount of energy

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Speaker 2: I put out, and let's be honest, I'm scared how

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Speaker 2: I go to present. I would say eighty percent of

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Speaker 2: the time I'm a little bit anxious about it, or

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Speaker 2: at least I hope I'm going to be a little

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Speaker 2: bit anxious about it. Yes, I'll eat a moderate to

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Speaker 2: small sized meal, but I'll eat a lot of fat

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Speaker 2: in protein, no carbohydrates or very little carps. So I

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Speaker 2: mean this is probably not a small meal. But I

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Speaker 2: have a little bit of avocado and I'll throw some

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Speaker 2: cheese on top of my eggs, so I have protein

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Speaker 2: and fat. And then when I get that adrenaline dump

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Speaker 2: later on going on stage, I can kind of ride

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Speaker 2: through that where if I haven't eaten anything, especially if

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Speaker 2: I had a cup of coffee, that could get ugly.

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Speaker 1: But also if you're eating fat and protein, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to get that big kind of blood sugar spot

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Speaker 1: and dump, right, You're not going to get that. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to flat line where you know you've got

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Speaker 1: a more consistent level of energy when you're eating some

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Speaker 1: protein and fat before you present. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, especially and this isn't a dig on conferences,

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Speaker 2: but the type of food that they serve you there.

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Speaker 2: It's ridiculous because I've I've had a on days, you know,

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Speaker 2: those days where you're doing the whole event, you're speaking

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Speaker 2: for eight hours in the morning, I'm exhausted and I

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Speaker 2: got to eat something, and then they'll bring in like

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Speaker 2: pizza and these sandwiches on refined white bread. I remember

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Speaker 2: I was so tired after eating lunch one session. I

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Speaker 2: was standing in front of the room and I couldn't

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Speaker 2: think I was having meltdown. I mean, I got through it.

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Speaker 2: I was like, okay, if I could just move around

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Speaker 2: a little bit and get past this first twenty minutes,

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Speaker 2: but I was in so much trouble. So what you

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Speaker 2: eat when you have to elicit and sustain high performance,

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Speaker 2: it's critical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that also matters for people who you

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Speaker 1: know at work in general, but students, like, be really

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Speaker 1: careful what you feed your body when your brain's got

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Speaker 1: to be optimal. Sometime in the next half hour or hour,

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Speaker 1: I did a gig lass year. I'll tell you who

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Speaker 1: it was four off air, but it was I can

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Speaker 1: say it was a government department and it was all day.

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Speaker 1: It was all day, and so I had to present

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Speaker 1: from about nine o'clock to around five o'clock. Everyone got

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Speaker 1: together from about eight thirty. And I can't. I would

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Speaker 1: love to tell everyone who the people in the room were,

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Speaker 1: but I can't because that would possibly get me in trouble.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, an interesting crowd. Let's just say that when

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Speaker 1: I got there in the morning, so there's all these

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Speaker 1: round Is it called cabaret with all the round tables, Bobby?

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Speaker 1: Is that what it's called? Cabaret? Set up? I think

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Speaker 1: it is. Anyway, all these people are sitting at these tables.

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Speaker 1: We're kicking off in fifteen twenty minutes. And in the

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Speaker 1: middle of each table is this like looks like a

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Speaker 1: gigantic champagne glass whatever that is times ten times the

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Speaker 1: size full of lollies, like I would say, two three

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Speaker 1: kilograms of lollies on each table. And then of course

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Speaker 1: every person is at the table talking and just plucking lollies.

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Speaker 1: This is eight thirty in the morning, right, so I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming they've had breakfast, come to the event, and now

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Speaker 1: at eight thirty we're just inhaling sugar. Then I do

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Speaker 1: my first thing. I start off ten thirty. Morning tea comes.

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Speaker 1: Morning tea is in an adjoining room. There is a

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Speaker 1: stampede of humans like something out of a fucking wildlife

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Speaker 1: documentary to the scones and the biscuits and the cake

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Speaker 1: and the da da da da da da da. Right,

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Speaker 1: not even two hours later after I resume I'm speaking,

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Speaker 1: is lunch, which is a Smagers bought. There is a

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Speaker 1: stampede to the smoketsport and I'm like, okay, we've had lollies,

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Speaker 1: we've had cakes, we've had SCons, we've had muffins, and

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Speaker 1: now we've got big pasta dishes and we've got all

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Speaker 1: of them. I'm thinking, how are these people fucking vertical?

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Speaker 1: How can they think than that? And then mid afternoon,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even joking, mid afternoon another thing in the

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Speaker 1: adjoining room, which was like an assortment of party pies

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Speaker 1: and sausage rolls and hot little things with dips. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, and that was I mean, when I

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Speaker 1: tell you who the group was trying to like, who

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Speaker 1: thinks of this? Who thinks when you're talking to the

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Speaker 1: catering people. Okay, we've got a conference today we need

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Speaker 1: and we're bringing in a guy and paying him quite

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Speaker 1: a lot of money to talk to the group about

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Speaker 1: essentially how to think better, do better, be better, produce better.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about high performance, we're talking about you know, leadership, communication,

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Speaker 1: problem solving, we're talking about you know, human and corporate optimization.

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Speaker 1: And let's just fill everyone with shit over the day.

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Speaker 1: And I even said to the guy who was the boss,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, this is inconsistent with performance, and he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I did my best, but let's just say it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It was just really an exercise in frustration for me.

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Speaker 1: You ever had anything like.

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Speaker 2: That, Well, yeah, all the time. And what I'm curious

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Speaker 2: about is when we have terrifying rises in the incidence

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Speaker 2: of burnout and people talk about workplace toxicity and working

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Speaker 2: next to people where the interpersonal dynamics elevates levels, I

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Speaker 2: wonder how much of that is not created, but facilitated

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Speaker 2: and deepened by the shit we eat and our lifestyle

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Speaker 2: behaviors every single day. And this is coming from someone

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Speaker 2: who makes questionable life decisions on a fairly consistent basis,

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Speaker 2: so it's not a judgment, it's an observation. So in

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Speaker 2: Paul Taylor's book Death by Comfort, really great book. If

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Speaker 2: you haven't read it, go pick it up. I think

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Speaker 2: he referenced the Sun Project. And the Sun Project was

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Speaker 2: a study that they conducted in Spain with nearly about

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Speaker 2: fifteen thousand people and they followed these people for ten

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Speaker 2: years and what they found is the people with the

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Speaker 2: highest incidents of their total caloric intake coming from ultra

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Speaker 2: process foods had over a thirty percent increased chance of

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Speaker 2: struggling with depression. And then in France they did a

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Speaker 2: very similar study, but this was nearly thirty thousand double

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Speaker 2: the participants, and they kind of found the same thing.

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Speaker 2: But there's a meta analysis that was done through multico

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Speaker 2: multico multiple countries in the European Union, and by the

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Speaker 2: time you added up, it was over one hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: people that they looked at and they found a forty

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Speaker 2: four percent increase in the risk of depression for people

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Speaker 2: who have the highest number of calories coming from ultra

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Speaker 2: process foods. So your hippocampus does not work very well

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Speaker 2: when you're struggling with systemic inflammation. Neither does the executive

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Speaker 2: enters your brain, so you think about every attribute that

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Speaker 2: you need. Like if you went into any CEO and said,

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Speaker 2: who are the best hires in your organization? Who are

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Speaker 2: the up and coming leaders that if you had a

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Speaker 2: chance to go and hire them again, you would make

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Speaker 2: the same decision, like point them out? Why? Why them?

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Speaker 2: Every single attribute that they name is negatively impacted by

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Speaker 2: a consumption of a diet that is high in ultra

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Speaker 2: process foods. And I'm not saying like, if you want

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Speaker 2: to eat a cake on a Thursday night, don't eat

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Speaker 2: a cake. Eat a cake, eat.

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Speaker 1: An ice cream.

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Speaker 2: But if that's where your calaries are coming from every

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Speaker 2: single day, breakfast and lunch and probably dinner as well,

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Speaker 2: don't be surprised when it's like, God, it's hard for

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Speaker 2: me to function. I'm so tired. I have to drag

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Speaker 2: myself from bed in the morning back to sleep at night.

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Speaker 1: And also think about, you know, what's happening to you

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Speaker 1: got buy on what's happening on a cellular level with

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Speaker 1: all that inflammatory food, what's happening on an hormonal level?

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Speaker 1: You know, like your body is, your body is trying,

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Speaker 1: it's getting calories, but it's not getting nutrition, you know,

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Speaker 1: and trying to fuel your body optimally, you know, so

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Speaker 1: that it can work at its very best. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: kind of ticking the caloric or the energy box kind of,

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Speaker 1: but it's yeah, kind of, but we're not ticking the

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Speaker 1: nutrition box or the quality of food box. Talk to

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Speaker 1: us and keep in mind everyone, Bobby is not a dietitian.

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Speaker 1: Neither am I. This is not our areas of expertise.

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Speaker 1: But talk to our audience a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: relationship between say, processed food and inflammation and cognitive function

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Speaker 1: and energy levels, and as much as you understand it,

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Speaker 1: how that.

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Speaker 2: Works when you're eating highly processed foods. Because of a

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Speaker 2: lot of reasons you talked about, your body responds through

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Speaker 2: chronic inflammation. Chronic inflammation interferes with mood, right, anytime you

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Speaker 2: have inflammation and the gut, anytime you're talking about messing

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Speaker 2: with your gut biome, you're negatively impacting serotonin production throughout

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Speaker 2: the day. So your executive centers are crashed. So there

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Speaker 2: goes planning and reasoning and discipline. There goes articulation and communication.

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Speaker 2: And when you do that, you ever have that experience

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Speaker 2: where you're so angry or you're so anxious, but you're

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Speaker 2: in a high state of emotional arousal, and because you

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Speaker 2: cannot communicate properly and articulate, because your left temporal lobes

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Speaker 2: are offline, you get even more angry, and then it

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Speaker 2: kind of devolves into this anger fueled conversation simply because

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Speaker 2: you can't find the words to proper express yourself in

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Speaker 2: the heat of the moment. Well, critical conversations are something

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Speaker 2: that we have to do every single day at work,

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Speaker 2: so that's impaired. Working memory is impaired. Long term potentiation

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Speaker 2: or the storage of long term memories, that's impaired. So

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Speaker 2: diet affects everything. And I'm not saying be super strict,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there

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Speaker 2: that can make a very good argument for why you

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Speaker 2: might need to be. I just don't think that's sustainable.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessary. But when you're talking about burnout,

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Speaker 2: when you're talking about I am so stressed every single day,

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Speaker 2: what you're eating through the majority of calories you take

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Speaker 2: in matters significantly, and maybe being overly stressed and burnt

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Speaker 2: out isn't a result of what's eating at you every day,

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Speaker 2: but what your in turn eating. It's probably a combination

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Speaker 2: of both and ten other variables that we haven't mentioned,

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Speaker 2: but it definitely does matter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I think another really interesting thing about you know,

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Speaker 1: the way that our brain works, the way that our

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Speaker 1: mind works, you know, mental acuity or vagueness, you know,

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Speaker 1: cognitive performance for one of another term is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize that this is not the

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Speaker 1: right term, but it'll do for now. That functional IQ

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Speaker 1: is fluid.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like I can literally be smarter in the morning

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Speaker 1: on a practical level, on an operational level than I

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Speaker 1: am after lunch, or I'm better hydra everything else is

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Speaker 1: the same, but I'm more hydrated, my brain works better,

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Speaker 1: everything else is the same on this Thursday that I'm

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Speaker 1: recording this, But I had an amazing sleep. So today

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Speaker 1: at ten thirty, my brain's working better than it did

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Speaker 1: yesterday at ten thirty, when my sleep was shit the

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Speaker 1: night before. So it's understanding that not only energy and

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Speaker 1: physiological performance from a strength or flexibility or movement or

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Speaker 1: cardiovascular kind of perspective varies, but so does how well

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Speaker 1: the brain works. You know, which is you. And I

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Speaker 1: know sometimes you will get up to do your job,

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Speaker 1: so will I, and it's like it's like you're throwing

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Speaker 1: baskets in a three point basket and the basket is

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Speaker 1: like ten feet wide you cannot miss, Like everything's going

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Speaker 1: in nothing but net. This is I'm in the zone.

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Speaker 1: And you've had those moments. I've had a few of them,

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Speaker 1: not too many, but where I'm just like my brain

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Speaker 1: is just through the roof. And there are other days

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Speaker 1: when I can't remember my name and I'm standing in

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Speaker 1: front of the audience, and you're the same person with

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Speaker 1: the same brain, but not the same person with the

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Speaker 1: same level of performance on a given day, depending on

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Speaker 1: the way that we manage these variables. I don't think

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Speaker 1: we think enough about how do I make my brain work? Well,

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Speaker 1: what are all the things I can do so that

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Speaker 1: my brain work some way close to what is optimal

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 2: I believe that even even the act of being discerning

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Speaker 2: about what you're doing within we'll call them lifestyle decisions, sleep, hygiene, exercise, diet,

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Speaker 2: even if there was no benefit, even if decisions you

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Speaker 2: were making were not benefiting you on a practical biological level,

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Speaker 2: I think psychologically, it would be very useful because one

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Speaker 2: of the things that elevate the adverse impact of stress

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Speaker 2: is directly in correspondence with our perceived locus of control.

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Speaker 2: How much choice and autonomy and agency I have to

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Speaker 2: affect outcomes in my life, dictate in stressful situations, how

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Speaker 2: much of that stress is going to impact me. So

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Speaker 2: someone is like, oh, my goodness, well I've chose this.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to tackle this problem. Oh and when I

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Speaker 2: feel stressed it lights me up. I'm ready to go.

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Speaker 2: That person's probably not going to struggle with stress as

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Speaker 2: badly as Oh my god, I fall apart under stress

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Speaker 2: and no matter what I do, nothing's ever going to change.

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Speaker 2: So I think we talked about this. I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine who is a top doctor at

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Speaker 2: the university, and he was talking about how agency and

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Speaker 2: learn helplessness, the opposite of any sense of agency, is

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Speaker 2: a major driver to when it comes to burnout. That's

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Speaker 2: why I like creating habits, like setting a goal, identifying

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Speaker 2: a behavior that if it were automatic, it would move

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Speaker 2: me towards where I want to be or help me

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Speaker 2: become who I want to be. Just doing that in

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Speaker 2: and of itself can address burnout because it establishes a

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Speaker 2: future state on the horizon that's clear, and I'm taking

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Speaker 2: steps every single day and there's no discernment between the

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Speaker 2: steps I'm taking and the result I'm witnessing. I will

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Speaker 2: eat this and then I'm eating it. Can't say oh,

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Speaker 2: no matter how much I try, nothing ever changes. Nope,

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Speaker 2: there is there is a one to one immediate correlation

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Speaker 2: between the intention I have and the behavior I'm engaging in.

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Speaker 2: So I think that matters just having a clear intentionality

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Speaker 2: around smaller things in your day, even just saying I'm

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Speaker 2: choosing this thing and doing that.

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Speaker 1: Imagine if we had, you know, the same attitude and

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Speaker 1: approach to managing our body on how our brain is

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Speaker 1: part of our body. But let's just from a health fitness,

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Speaker 1: wellness point of view in general, where you go, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: and you'll sit down with a trainer or a coach,

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Speaker 1: or a doctor or a dietitian or a whoever you know,

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Speaker 1: integrative medicine specialist, whoever it is you know, and you go,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's look at all these things and how

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Speaker 1: much running or walking or stretching or how much you

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Speaker 1: know strength training, and you tell us about your workstation,

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Speaker 1: are you standing, are you're sitting? How much time do

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Speaker 1: you spend in inflection? Tell me about you diet. What

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Speaker 1: time do you get out of bed, go to bed?

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Speaker 1: How much water? Coffee, tea? You know, we analyze all

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Speaker 1: of these things that affect, you know, the kind of

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Speaker 1: the performance of our body. But imagine if we did

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Speaker 1: a version of that just for our brain. We went,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's look at all of that. And I

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Speaker 1: know that's integrated into the stuff I just said. Also,

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Speaker 1: but where you went? All right, how's my brain going?

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Speaker 1: What's my what's the data telling me about my brain?

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Speaker 1: Let's say my brain's potential is ten for me? My ten?

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Speaker 1: Where am I at? Now? I know this is a

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Speaker 1: very kind of messy thing to try and conceptualize, but

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Speaker 1: you know where you go? All right, Well, I know

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Speaker 1: that my brain works better. It's like you and I

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Speaker 1: both know that eating a cheeseburger and a plate of

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Speaker 1: chips and some cheesecake before we go and present is

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Speaker 1: far less than optimal, right, so we don't do it.

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Speaker 1: We also know that you know you buy, don't drink,

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Speaker 1: so but you probably know that having to beer before

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Speaker 1: you get on stage while but fun probably not optimal

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Speaker 1: for the crowd. Or so, just if we had this

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Speaker 1: where everybody's always talking about their body. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go on a diet, I'm going to join a gym.

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Speaker 1: I've got a New Year's resolution. Imagine if we had

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Speaker 1: the same level of awareness and not concern but enthusiasm

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Speaker 1: around optimizing our brain. And I don't just mean for

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Speaker 1: work performance and memory and academic performance, but for longevity

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Speaker 1: and health span. Like, I've never been more aware of

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Speaker 1: brain function than I am now. With eighty five year

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Speaker 1: old parents, God bless them, and you're just like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is and they're fine. They're fine, but they're eighty five.

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Speaker 1: And the more that I spend time with mom and

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Speaker 1: dad at eighty five, I'm like, oh, yeah, crag, you

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Speaker 1: really need to you really need to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you are doing fucking everything that you can so that

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Speaker 1: when you're eighty five, if you make it eighty five,

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Speaker 1: that's the big asterisk. But yeah, that your brain's working

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Speaker 1: as well as it can, you know. And I just

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Speaker 1: don't think we think about it enough. I think we

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Speaker 1: just kind of accept what it is.

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Speaker 2: I think there are three things that could kind of

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Speaker 2: put us on the side of the angels. Again not

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Speaker 2: my expert opinion, but I think it's curiosity, it's meaningful

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Speaker 2: relationships with other people, like time spent, and intentionality around

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Speaker 2: our behaviors. I think those three things would keep us

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Speaker 2: in a state of consistent growth, engagement, exploration, and be

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Speaker 2: very good for our brain.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that like there's in Australia anyway. I'm

429
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: sure in America, like there's a real and I don't

430
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: think it's necessarily been created with ill will, but it's

431
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: like there is very much an age just kind of

432
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: group think and that yeah, well, I mean, what do

433
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: you expect you're fifty five, what do you expect of course? Ye,

434
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: or you're sixty or you're like, there's we rationalize why

435
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: something is happening purely out of well, that's because you're

436
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: this old, and that's what happens when you're this old.

437
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: It's almost like, oh, we have no control, No, that's

438
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: just what happens at sixty and that you know, It's

439
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: like I've told this story ten times on this show.

440
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: But when I first started my PhD, somebody said to me,

441
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: you're going to be sixty one or two when you finish,

442
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: Like and they were kind of going, you know, they

443
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: weren't trying to be a prick, but they were kind

444
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: of being a prick. They're like, why would you start.

445
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 1: You're going to be sixty ish when you finish. And

446
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: I said, well, in five years, I'm going to be

447
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: sixty anyway, I'm going to be sixty with a PhD

448
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: or sixty without a PhD. So I you know, it's like,

449
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: that's okay, but we don't have to go, oh right,

450
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: so how old are you? All right, well, oh you're seventy,

451
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: all right, you should be sitting in a circle with

452
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: other seventy year olds kicking balloons to each other, because

453
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: that's what seventy year olds do or seventy five year

454
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: olds do. Like, definitely, don't go surfing. Definitely, don't go

455
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: into the gym and do fucking dead lift. Definitely, don't

456
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: climb a mountain. Also, don't learn anything new because you've

457
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: got a seventy year old brain. It's almost like this

458
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: is the unspoken philosophy around aging.

459
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of unspoken philosophies that are

460
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 2: either incomplete or completely ludicrous. But because there's this shared

461
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: illusion we all agree upon and I'm not trashing social media.

462
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: Social media has brought a lot of good into the

463
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: world that's got a lot of great things that can

464
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: do for someone. But also it's no secret it's had

465
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: a negative impact on our society. I think part of

466
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 2: that is you go into these threads that are not

467
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: an invitation to exchange ideas. What they're demanding is consensus.

468
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: And there's an idea like let's say around agism, and

469
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: everyone who agrees with that idea is in that thread

470
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: and they agree wholeheartedly. There's this incredible emotional intensity around

471
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: this agreement and mutual validation, and if anybody tries to

472
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 2: get into that thread and even ask a question or

473
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: present a different opinion, they're pushed out of that thread

474
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: or they're mocked until they just like are stamped down

475
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: and leave. And we have all these belief systems about

476
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: what an old persons supposed to be right or why

477
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: you're supposed to go about, Like we were talking about

478
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 2: last week, goal setting not on the show, but you

479
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: and I and even the way we look at goal

480
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: setting holds us back from learning, growth and development. So

481
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 2: Heidi Grant Halveston, she's brilliant, and she wrote the book Succeed,

482
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: and it talks about all of these types of goal

483
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: setting and how people approach it. And one way to

484
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: decrease how much you learn and grow over time is

485
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 2: to set a goal around wanting to do good. Now,

486
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: people listening to this is like, well, why would you

487
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: not want to do good? Because if I set a

488
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 2: goal where Okay, I'm going to do good at this

489
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: meeting so I can get this promotion and in and

490
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 2: of itself, there's nothing wrong with that. But if it's

491
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: always about the performance and the outcome versus I want

492
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: to do better, I want to set this goal like

493
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: I want to go get my PhD, not so I

494
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: can be called doctor Capuccio or doctor Harper. But what

495
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: about the experience. If that's your thing of going through

496
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: the learning process of getting better, regardless of where you're

497
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: going to end up at the end, you're getting better

498
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: all through it. So when you're going through that, I

499
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 2: would imagine I've never gone through my PhD program. There

500
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: are some pretty challenging moments that everybody, no matter how

501
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: smart you are, is confronted with somebody's like, well, I

502
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: want to do good. When they get hit all these

503
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: confronting challenges, they start to lose motivation, they start to

504
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: lose confidence, and they tend to quit because it's highly discouraging.

505
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: If this happens, this is a stumbling block. I'm not

506
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: going to get to do good. Well, what does that

507
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: say about me? Oh? My goodness, Dad was right. I'll

508
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: never amount to anything, and that whole storyline versus if

509
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: I want to get better. There's two things that are

510
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: going to happen to me when I'm confronted with challenges.

511
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: One neutral, it doesn't affect me because I'm just trying

512
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: to extract what I can learn. And when I do well,

513
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: I learn something. When I make a mistake, something doesn't

514
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: go well, I just learned something. The other thing that

515
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: happens to a different type of person who is trying

516
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: to do better is they get motivated because learning curiosity

517
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,239
Speaker 2: is such an important fundamental value to them when they

518
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: run into challenges. That is the very evidence that this

519
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: is the point where I am really going to learn. So,

520
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: in the face of adversity, people are trying to do better,

521
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: a growth in learning based mentality around goal setting have

522
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 2: much greater sustainability and motivation than people who are trying

523
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: to do good. But if you're setting a goal, why

524
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: because you want to have something in the future. I

525
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: want to get this, so I need to do this. Rather,

526
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: I want to do this so I could become that,

527
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 2: not necessarily necessarily have that. We just have all of

528
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: these beliefs. I'm not going to blame self help, but

529
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: a lot of them either come from self help or

530
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: they were perpetuated through self help. A lot of great

531
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: shits was perpetuated through self help. Just want to check myself.

532
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: But it's the way we have these shared illusions that

533
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: I think is a self imposed limitation we place simply

534
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: because we're not challenging dogma, Like is that true? How

535
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: do I know that's true? Do I know anybody who

536
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: defies this? Do I know two people, three people?

537
00:30:58,920 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: You know?

538
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: Is there like a million in people? It just does

539
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: It just doesn't make sense sometimes.

540
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think too, that you know, challenging

541
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: that that dogma, like you said, of challenging that, you

542
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: know that self help gospel that if you do this

543
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: or get that, then you will become that or you

544
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: will like if I get to the top of the

545
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: mountain then and as we all know, you know, maybe

546
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: it's about the climate. It's not about the destination and

547
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: all those things. But we I don't know that we

548
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: really really self reflect and and I know for myself

549
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: when I was young and I was building businesses and

550
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 1: employing people and you know, kind of pioneering in this

551
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: thing called personal training and figuring shit out and pushing

552
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: back and fucking up and falling down and getting back

553
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: up and getting embarrassed and winning a few times and

554
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: breakthroughs and breakdowns and breakups and all of those things.

555
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: You you get Sometimes you get to a point where

556
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, I've achieved my goal, so I've ticked

557
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: the box. I've done the thing. I've got money an now,

558
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: or I've got a business now, or I'm in good

559
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: shape now or I've got a partner now, or I

560
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: look good now or I'm whatever, And you're like, ah,

561
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: why am I still sad? Or why am I still insecure?

562
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: Or why am I still overthinking the shit out of everything?

563
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: Why do I still feel like a fraud? What? You know,

564
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: It's like we have this idea that if I get

565
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: that external thing, that will result in this internal thing,

566
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, And so that's where you kind of differentiate

567
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: between the what and the why, Like, what's the thing

568
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: that you want? Oh? I want to do be create,

569
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: have own earned b look like you know, I want that?

570
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: And then you go cool, oh great, why because that's

571
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: that's really what we want, isn't it. It's like what

572
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: is the driver? What is the reason behind? Okay, you

573
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: want to earn three hundred grand a year. I'm not

574
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: saying that's a bad goal. I'm not saying you shouldn't.

575
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: What do you think is going to change? Like, what

576
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: do you hope that three hundred thousand, that's six thousand

577
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: dollars a week? What is that going to do? And

578
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: then when we dig into that, of course, well I

579
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: just I actually just want to be less stressed. I

580
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: actually just want to be able to put my kids

581
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: in a better school because that'll be well, whatever the

582
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: thing is. And these are not bad correlations necessarily, but

583
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: my experience is that achieving the one often doesn't equate

584
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: to the other. But nonetheless we just keep moving forward

585
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: in this collective mindset in our culture anyway, in Australia,

586
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: which is very much success is about what everyone can

587
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: see that is success.

588
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: Could you really say yourself? I mean, and if you

589
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: arrive there right you've got the income, you've got the

590
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: call of the house, the partner, and you are happy

591
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: and this is everything you've hoped for. Oh that's amazing.

592
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you were pursuing a value and you

593
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: didn't do that route cause analysis that peeling away the

594
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 2: layers of why why why and realizing it wasn't the house,

595
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: right it was, It wasn't the car. There was something else.

596
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: Maybe you just wanted to feel safe, you and your family.

597
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: You wanted to provide. If you're not happy, could you

598
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: say you're successful? I mean, wow, look at Bill. He's

599
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: so miserable that man, is he successful? That's not success.

600
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 2: Have you ever found it curious that when people talk

601
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: about the good old days when things were amazing, very

602
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: often they talk about the times that they were striving,

603
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: not necessarily arriving. Like we were living in that one

604
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: bedroom flat and we were struggling. We were working so hard,

605
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: and we were eating takeaway like out of the cotton,

606
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 2: which sounds amazing actually, and oh we were so happy.

607
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: You know. Our furniture was like donated by like you know,

608
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: mates who just didn't want to take it to like

609
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: a consignment shop. And it's always it's always when you're

610
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: on the way and you're building something. I think there's

611
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 2: something about creativity that really matters for people. That's why

612
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: I say curiosity. What am I curious about? And what

613
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: do I want to share with people? Like when my

614
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: internal curiosity impacts you, it touches you and I'm like, oh, my, Craig,

615
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 2: I read a book today and well not in one day,

616
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: but I just finished the book. I think you'd love

617
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: it because and I'm sharing this with you and like, oh, wow,

618
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: you know what I am curious about that I'm living

619
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: my purpose because I just made a contribution to you.

620
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 2: I was reading something interesting about virtuous contribution and take

621
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: on virtue, Like what is virtue and virtue is when

622
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: you are expressing your core values in a way that

623
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: contributes to others and elevates their well being. So if

624
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: the impact you're having on peoples more well being in theirs,

625
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: you're probably living virtuously. I thought, wow, that's brilliant because

626
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: there's so many beliefs we have about virtue. But any belief,

627
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: any value, taken to the other extreme can be highly negative.

628
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: There's a shadow aspect of it. If I'm engaging in

629
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 2: a belief or a way of life that makes me unwell.

630
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: At some point, I'm fighting nature. And whether you believe

631
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: in millions of years of evolution or you believe in

632
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: God and creation, the chances that nature got something wrong

633
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: that you think you've figured out and you've improved upon it,

634
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: it's probably silent to none. If something's wrong, it's probably you,

635
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: not nature. So I think that's a really good litmus

636
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: test for the goals that we set for ourselves and

637
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 2: the goals that we pursue. Is this making me more well,

638
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: enhancing my well being and others? Or is it having

639
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 2: the opposite effect?

640
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: Can That's a tricky question, right to talk about virtue?

641
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: And I think one of the one of the reoccurring

642
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: themes on this show and many shows like this, is

643
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: we you know, we want to be virtuous. We want

644
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: to be you know, moral, We want to be ethical.

645
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: We want to we want to have empathy. We want

646
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: to be loving, kind, compassionate, We want to purpose bigger

647
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: than ourselves, right, And I think everyone, including me, likes

648
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: to be seen like this. I think this is hard

649
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: to say, right, but I feel like the natural state

650
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: of most of us, me included, the default setting is selfish,

651
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: The default setting is not generous. The default setting is me, me, me,

652
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: got to look after me, protect me, And I get

653
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: that from an evolutionary and a survival point of view.

654
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: I get that, but I'm not talking so much about

655
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: evolutionary survival. It is this being virtuous, being kind, being

656
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: aware of having having an awareness bigger than you. This

657
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: is a This is a I think this is a

658
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: spiritual process. I think where for me anyway? Where? Because

659
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: I know how fucking self absorbed I can be. Just

660
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: ask some of the people in my world how selfish

661
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: I can be. And I think it's very easy to

662
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: get on podcasts and say all these things but not

663
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: be the things. And I think, I'm not talking about you.

664
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about me necessarily, but I can only

665
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: speak on my behalf. But that when we talk about,

666
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, be virtuous, be this, be that, and figure

667
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 1: out your purpose and live in alignment with your values,

668
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: and it is it is. I think it's not the

669
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: worst advice in the world, and I definitely think there's

670
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: a lot in it, But fucking hell, the human experience

671
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: is not that simple, is it. It's like I'm a clumsy, selfish,

672
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: fucking critical sometimes a bit smart. Sometimes are more unfucking

673
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: just human just stumbling through life sometimes and it's like

674
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: we hold up all these beautiful words virtue, and it's like,

675
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it's just this, it's just this kind of

676
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: story unfolding, and you're the author of your story. Now.

677
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: Sometimes you're the dumbass in the middle of shit that's

678
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: out of control. You know.

679
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting when you say that, I think

680
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: you're speaking to the core of my belief systems. Human

681
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: beings are very complicated, and some of the most kind

682
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 2: or quote unquote virtuous people I have ever met are

683
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: the ones that are the most flawed and dysfunctional and

684
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: completely rough around the edges, like people cross to the

685
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 2: other side of the street when they're walking down the road,

686
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: and when you get to know them, they're amazing. I

687
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: think semantics matter a lot when you say virtuous, like

688
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: what are we talking about? Because I think sometimes we

689
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: confuse piety for virtue, or we have these moralizations. So

690
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 2: if it's like, hey, I'm playing this game where look

691
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: at me, I'm good, you're bad. First of all, you're

692
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: being dishonest and you're definitely not being virtuous. And I

693
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: think anything that is worth doing is worth doing imperfectly,

694
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: even if you are off the mark of where you

695
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: want to be. More of the time, just trying to

696
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: move that needle is very good for you. And when

697
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 2: I think about virtue, I don't think about somebody being

698
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 2: moral and perfect and good. That's not my fucking business

699
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: to be fair, unless, of course their behaviors are infringing

700
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: upon somebody else. What I'm talking about, like it goes

701
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: back into meditations with Marcusuralius, like what does it mean

702
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: to live a life of greatness? You know that that

703
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 2: stuff always bothers me, Like what you're talk about, what's

704
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: what's a life of greatness? It's like with human beings.

705
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 2: And here's this guy who is probably one of arguably

706
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: the most powerful person who has ever lived, or in

707
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 2: a small group of that class, and he's struggling with

708
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: He doesn't want to abuse his power. He truly wants

709
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: to lead well. And he says that greatness and I

710
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: think this is in line with virtue is trying to

711
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 2: bring about the greatest amount of good where you are

712
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: in the moment. And that's going to be different when

713
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: you're having the worst moment of your life or a

714
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: really bad day versus.

715
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: A good day.

716
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: You know, there are going to be times where you

717
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: go out and you know, last night was a train wreck,

718
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: and then there's times where oh wow, I feel like

719
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 2: a more in alignment of who I want to be.

720
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: It's on that scale and having grace with yourself and

721
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 2: having grace with others, because if you have zero grace

722
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: with others and you are the virtue police nothing like,

723
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: what's that saying virtue can never survive the virtuous? You're

724
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 2: not acting virtuously because virtue would would imply a moment

725
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: of care. Are you elevating that person's sense of wellbeing?

726
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: Are you elevating yourself? Like those people walk around and

727
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: talk about how everyone's so fucked up and they're doing

728
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: all these behaviors and look at what they do and

729
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 2: how they dress, Like, is that elevating your well being?

730
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: You are miserable, Like I'm miserable just listening to you,

731
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 2: being inside your head must be a nightmare. So it's

732
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: not about perfection, and it's about what brings you closer

733
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: to well being, what brings you closer to other And

734
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure from a religious sense, you can

735
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: have a conversation about morality but you could probably make

736
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: the same case that if you think about people who

737
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: are rooted in in morality. M hm, there's a lot

738
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: of there's there's a lot of intersection with the definition

739
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: of virtue that I said I read about, because someone

740
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: who is acting quote unquote moral will probably be focused

741
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 2: on bringing about higher levels of well being in themselves

742
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 2: and others, but they might not have the same idea

743
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 2: about how that shows up, right, Like some things might

744
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: not be an issue for them, that might be an

745
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 2: issue for other people. And then I mean, we can

746
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 2: get into a whole conversation about that, but it's like, Okay,

747
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: is what I'm doing supporting my well being and others?

748
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: Or is it not not as a standard of perfection

749
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: but kind of like a compass. I think I think,

750
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: I think it's helpful.

751
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: Do you know One of the r andies is I

752
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: think this sounds completely contrary and contradictory, but I think

753
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: there's almost a kind of generosity and selflessness to a

754
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: point which can come out of being selfish. My quick

755
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: story about that is when I used to be primarily

756
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: me focused, I was consistently less happy than when I started.

757
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: When I started to realize, oh, I'm doing all this stuff.

758
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm now I've created all these things. And I don't

759
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: think I was a wildly selfish, ignorant person. I was,

760
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: to a degree aware and kind, but I was more

761
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: selfish than I would like to have been. But the

762
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: moment that I recognized the outcome of my selfishness, like emotionally, mentally, socially,

763
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, even analytically, I can realize this doesn't work,

764
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: like selfishness. Whatever the goal or whatever the underlying reasons

765
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: are for my it doesn't work. And then you go

766
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: and as cheesy as it sounds, when I do and

767
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: I don't always, but when I have a purpose bigger

768
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: than me, or an awareness bigger than me, or where

769
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: I'm doing things where there is no agenda or hook

770
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: or catch, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, there is. There's

771
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: another principle at work here. This is not a ledger,

772
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: This is not you know, zeros and ones, This is

773
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: not dollars and cents, This is not you know, red

774
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: and black. This is you know, this is there's something

775
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: else operating here. And that so I think even if

776
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: you can, just from an intellectual point of view, understand that,

777
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: just just have a look at the data, have a

778
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: look at all the selfish, self centered people that you know,

779
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: and have a look at the byproduct, have a look

780
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: at the psychological emotional byproduct of that. It doesn't work.

781
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't work. Not that that's a reason necessarily

782
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: to be more generous, but it definitely there's evidence to

783
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: say that these things that some people might call spiritual

784
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: principles of being more, caring, more empathetic, more or maybe

785
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: just human values, whatever you want to call them, there's

786
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: clear evidence that not only do they work on that level,

787
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,479
Speaker 1: but they also work on a mental and emotional level

788
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: too for the individual. Like I'm so much calmer, so

789
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: much less anxious, so much more I think grounded and content.

790
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say happy, I would just say content because

791
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: I've shifted and I continue to try to shift my focus.

792
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeap. Just as a thought exercise, what if there was

793
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 2: something or someone out there that was trying to tell us, hey,

794
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: if you behave in certain ways, you carry certain intentions,

795
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: you are going to produce a lot of pain for

796
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 2: yourself and other people unnecessarily. It's not like a pain

797
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 2: is part and suffering is part of the process, and

798
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: the sacrifice to get something. This is going to be

799
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: needless amounts of pain and suffering, and you will ultimately

800
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 2: bring about the very things that you are trying to avoid. Now,

801
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 2: if you do this and you engage on this level,

802
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 2: and you care about people, you break and you make

803
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 2: bridges with people, you are going to avert a lot.

804
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 2: You are going to avoid a lot more problems in

805
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 2: your life, and you are going to be more fulfilled.

806
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 2: Maybe not happier, but you will be more fulfilled. You

807
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 2: will be more at peace, Things will have meaning for

808
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: you because based on what you just said, it's almost

809
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: like this was set up by society, someone something somewhere

810
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: say hey, just trust us on this or trust the meanlesness.

811
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: You think, you think you're going down a good path,

812
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: but you're really not.

813
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: And what's I've got a question for you. What's at

814
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 1: one end of the scale, we've got complete self obsession selfishness,

815
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: and then at the other end of the scale, maybe

816
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: we've got selflessness. I don't think selflessness works. I don't

817
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: think selfishness works. What's that middle spot. What's what's somewhere

818
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 1: along the scale there that's good for us and good

819
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: for them? So to speak. I don't know. I.

820
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: I would imagine that that is different for everyone. I

821
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: would imagine that place depends on intention. Like I'm let's

822
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: say I'm a person who behaves selflessly, if that's even possible,

823
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 2: because if I care about you, the second I can

824
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 2: with you, I get something emotionally. But let's say the

825
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: intention is not there regardless of the unavoidable consequence. Is

826
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 2: that because seeing you happy and helping you is super

827
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: important to me? Or is it because I lack a

828
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: level of self worth and I need that validation. Oh,

829
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 2: Bobby's such a good guy, isn't he? Look at how

830
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: he helped Paul Craig like sot out sought out that outfit.

831
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: You know, Craig was going to walk out there and

832
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: just in a complete state, and just Bobby took him

833
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: shopping and Craig looks amazing. Now like what, yeah, you're welcome.

834
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it. It was a good day out. What

835
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: is your intention behind that? And it's not to say,

836
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, you're so duplicitous you say you want

837
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: it's like, why do I need that? What need is

838
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: that trying to fulfill in me? Because I believe we're

839
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: sometimes stress and fear by sometimes, I mean a lot

840
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: of times bring out the worst of us, Like what

841
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 2: am I needing right now? Because I think we're not

842
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 2: taught to think, We're not taught to think about our

843
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: motivations and do self reflection, and heaven forbid we do

844
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 2: that on behalf of somebody else. We arrive at an immediate,

845
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 2: definite conclusion about why that person behaves in the way

846
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 2: they do, even though we have very little information to

847
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 2: make that determination. And if you go out and you

848
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: find like I don't know a few people that agree

849
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: with you, you can't possibly be wrong. But understanding yourself,

850
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 2: I think, and I think that middle line it kind

851
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 2: of moves. There are some times where if you're not

852
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: more focused on yourself, you're going to be so depleted

853
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: you're not going to be good for anybody. Or you're

854
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 2: going to get so depleted you might actually be detrimental

855
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: to people. So maybe sometimes going hey, I'm going to

856
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: be a little bit more selfish because I may not

857
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 2: have that impact, you know.

858
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: I think it's just self care. It's like I know this.

859
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: If I don't eat well, sleep well, manage me well,

860
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: then I'm not good for others. And that's just an awareness.

861
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a selfishness thing. Mate, We've got

862
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: to go. That was good. I really enjoyed that much

863
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: better than the other stupid topic we were going to

864
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: talk about. How can people find you and follow you?

865
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: Young Robert?

866
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 2: You can go to Robert Caapuccio dot com, the self

867
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: helpanta dot com. I am on LinkedIn, so hope to

868
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 2: see that.

869
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: And also Bobby is available for work too in he's alway,

870
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: he's got a job, but he does some coaching, he

871
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: does some consulting, he does some other corporate work on Zoom.

872
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: So if you live in Australia and you think I

873
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't mind doing a coaching session with him, hit him up.

874
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: And if you've got you might need to sell a kidney,

875
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: possibly your spleen, maybe one or two year vehicles, but

876
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure you can organize something.

877
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: With him if you come to appendix you're not using. Yeah,

878
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: that's such a copy as well.

879
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: Thanks mate,